Chris Kluwe, the former Vikings punter, just signed with the Raiders after getting cut by the Vikings. Kluwe’s a noted advocate of GLBT and other causes. Since I don’t follow any pro sports, can someone who does explain whether Kluwe getting cut was retaliation or just a good personnel move?
Kluwe
by @heymistermix.com| 84 Comments
This post is in: Sports
Bruuuuce
There’s been some discussion of that amongst the experts, While Kluwe was in the lower half of his peers in 2012, his personal stats were among his best in his career. The consensus seems to be that while he might or might not have been released had he not spoken out, his voice made that release certain.
Gex
I hadn’t been watching the Vikings for a while. He had been a pretty good punter when I did watch them. But honestly, I don’t actually care too much if it was for his advocacy or not. He sure didn’t.
I would wonder if part of it is stadium related. I haven’t paid much attention to that lately either but if it is still slated for Anoka county, a lot of the big money and power behind the stadium would be from Bachmann’s district.
Mudge
Kluwe was a punter who conceivably could have been cut based entirely on his performance. He was outspoken on many issues on Twitter. The Vikings were not happy with that. The Vikings drafted a punter then released Kluwe. Most sports pundits felt that Kluwe’s record was unexceptional enough that he could be cut on the merits, but also that a competition with the new guy would have been sensible. Obviously a combination of below average punting and above average outspokenness could have led to his dismissal. I’m not sure there is an either/or answer.
Omnes Omnibus
Kluwe is 31 years old. He is better at punting indoors or in good weather than he is outdoors in bad. The Vikings (God rot them) are moving from a dome to an outdoor stadium. If his release is due to his public positions, the Vikes have a lot of cover.
VOR
Kluwe probably made management unhappy with his activism and outspoken nature. However, IMHO management is probably more interested in the economics of the deal. Kluwe is a veteran who made $1.45M last year while the new punter they drafted in the 5th round will be paid much less. Last season the Vikings released veteran kicker Ryan Longwell and replaced him with a cheaper 6th round draft choice.
lol
Didn’t he get injured this season as well? Or am I thinking of someone else?
The Dangerman
The NFL is cutthroat about performance; if Kluwe was a top punter, he could take a dump on the 50 yard line during a game and not get cut.
Mark B.
Business move. The Vikings could get a rookie or 2nd year punter with similar stats for less money. The risk being decreased consistency. The Vikings needed the salary cap room.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
It’s hard to tell. With most sports the statistical line is fairly clear. But for a football punter everything has to be taken in context. Where on the field was he punting from? What type of field position did his opponents have after his punts? Did his ability to pin a team deep recede?
And then there are the salary questions. How much does Kluwe make? Can the Vikings find a more affordable replacement? Did they draft a punter?
bigfatdrunk
Kluwe was due $1.4MM on his Vikings deal, and he’s really pretty mediocre at this point of his career. The Vikings replaced him with similar talent and are saving over $1MM with the swap. It’s a business move. Plus, just two days before the draft, he wondered if he’d ever wear the new uniforms He knew he was on the bubble. His tweet after Jeff Locke was drafted:
Tokyokie
The NFL players union, the weakest among the major sports leagues, has established a schedule of escalating minimum salaries for veteran players. Unfortunately, considering the league also has a salary cap, the minimum salaries work against the veteran players. The sort of player who could hang on for a few more years as a backup/special teams player will be cut in favor of a more inexperienced guy whose salary will count less against the cap. Anybody with more than five years in the league who’s not starting is basically considered expendable, and that same thinking usually applies to kicking specialists, especially punters, as well.
dedc79
Look at any football roster from one season to the next and the turnover is probably over 10% (often more). Hell the average football player only lasts a few years to begin with (although kickers do tend to have more longevity).
Dave
No team in the NFL would be stupid enough to cut a player for anything other than performance or economic reasons unless it was something really, really, bad. Kluwe was too expensive for a punter for his current skill level. Nothing more than that
BGinCHI
Love Kluwe.
Hope he succeeds there.
jibeaux
My instinct would be business move, because I find it pretty hard to believe that they would keep guys who do a lot worse things but get rid of someone for being opinionated — I think fundamentally it’s all about the money — but I have been known to be naive before.
jibeaux
And I can’t remember his exact age, I bet the google knows, but he’s not a youngun.
jibeaux
@Omnes Omnibus: D’oh! Even you knew. I actually thought he was older than 31, must be the maturity.
Shakezula
I have no Kluwe.
J.W. Hamner
To say what others have said in a slightly different way (yay internet!)… he is an average punter (though he seems to be playing pretty well right now) so he didn’t have the same leeway a player who is one of the best at their position might get. Probably the Vikings thought he was a distraction (his position coach said so even) but I don’t think it’s specifically because his issue is LGBT .
DougJ
He’s not that great a punter.
Omnes Omnibus
@jibeaux: I am happy to have him move on from the Vikes. I don’t like it when there is any reason to look with favor on that team.
Bizono
The Vikings would have been smart to cut him, regardless of his outspoken views.
Pro Football Focus had him ranked 25th, which is bad but maybe not enough to cut him. However, he was due a fairly good chunk of change (relative to punters) due to the length of his NFL service.
So it made good business sense for the Vikings to cut an expensive, below average player, and replace Kluwe with someone who should be at least as good at probably half the cost.
Mnemosyne
I will freely admit I have no idea what city the Raiders are in anymore. Cleveland?
JR
Business move. As others have noted, the Vikings signed a rookie punter, Jeff Locke of UCLA, whom they drafted a few weeks ago. Should save them quite a bit of cash in a league with a salary cap and give them a punter whose career average is just a fraction of a yard below Kluwe’s.
BGinCHI
@DougJ: In the Castro they don’t care how well you can kick balls.
Orpho
The general consensus is much like the one here (and above): http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/56119/chris-kluwe-release-the-role-of-advocacy . He was alright but not great, and it really takes being great to be able to speak out and not face possible retaliation. And those folks are less likely to speak out because they get sponsorship deals that are imperiled by political advocacy.
Just a shitty culture all around.
JMG
Kickers and punters get cut on a regular basis, even the Hall of Fame caliber ones. They get hired again all the time, too, as witness Kluwe’s new gig.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
When your Christian friends complain about Tebow getting cut for his views, you can talk about Kluwe getting cut for his. Not that either is true, but at least you’ll know the truth.
gbear
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’ve lived in MN all my life but I’ve always felt this way about the Vikings too. They always seem to have more reasons to hate them than to like them. The Randy Moss years were the pinacle. The new stadium design (to be built at the current site of the Metrodome) is gawd awfully ugly from the outside. It’s just impossible to make a gigantic barn look like good architecture.
Omnes Omnibus
@gbear: I approach the situation as a rabid Packer fan, so there’s that.
different-church-lady
Who cares which is was? Let’s use it to get our outrage on.
Oh, wait… thought I was on Daily Kos there for a second…
gbear
@Omnes Omnibus: I really don’t care about football one way or the other except to complain about how much money owners suck out of the public (via tickets prices, TV fees and municipal blackmail) and how the players are left physically damaged for life after their careers are over…
But other than that, I do like that the Packers are publicly owned (soc!alism!!).
Cassidy
The talibangelicals have got themselves a real persecution complex over Tebow. Honestly, he should take Orlando up on its offer. It gives him the ability to play fast and improve his passing accuracy.
NickT
It’s mostly a business decision, but Kluwe’s activism probably made the Vikings nervous. NFL franchises (and, indeed, the league) tend to react negatively to players saying anything “controversial”. Heroic outspokenness is not part of their DNA.
Good luck, Chris.
Origuy
@Mnemosyne:
Oakland. But they draw fans from all over California.
gbear
Kluwe does kind of get the last laugh here. Marriage Equality is the law in MN now. He helped that cause a lot. We will remember that and Kluwe can keep that as his memory of Minnesota.
Joel (Macho Man Randy Savage)
He claimed it was retaliation, and it might have been. It wasn’t a bad personnel move, nor was it a good one. The Vikings saved ~$750K by drafting a punter and letting him go. Not a lot in football terms. And the drafted punter could suck. Kluwe is averagish.
Bill in Section 147
As a Raider fan I am glad to have him coming to the team. The current kicker has a great leg but has been inconsistent. After Lechlar anybody is going to be meh. I am pretty sure that money is the issue here as unless a kicker is aces they are viewed as replaceable.
I am pretty sure the reduction in focus on the off-field issues is comforting to some of the execs but not “the” reason.
Also I will add that the jokes about the town the Raiders play in are pretty funny. Especially now that many NFL teams do not even play in their city and or have spent some years out of their city. Irvinton, Bloomington and New Jersey all have/had teams and the Santa Clara team is where? Oh but the Raiders they moved in the 80s because the NFL screwed them on their stadium deal and moved back in 1995.
And another topical humor point…”the Castro” gawd you are older than me and that is saying something.
Bighorn Ordovian Dolomite
@Omnes Omnibus:
Outdoor stadium?
reflectionephemeral
As everyone’s saying, it was business. Here’s the take from Rotoworld, my preferred player news site:
it’s not that he’s horrible, it’s that he was replaceable for cheaper at that skill level.
catclub
@BGinCHI: You would think they might care very much about that.
reflectionephemeral
As everyone’s saying, it was business. Here’s the take from Rotoworld, my preferred player news site:
it’s not that he’s horrible, it’s that he was replaceable for cheaper at that skill level.
different-church-lady
@Cassidy:
It’s true that since Dwight Howard left, the Magic haven’t had the presence they’ve needed under the basket, but I don’t think Tebow has a very good lay-up.
gbear
@reflectionephemeral:
I hear there are some decent punters in Bangladesh. ;)
Another Halocene Human
Hm, so I have a question. What do Brits mean when they use the word “punter”? Because it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with athletics.
Seanly
@Omnes Omnibus:
Are the Vikings playing somewhere else while the new stadium is built? The new stadium is going to be domed according to my civil engineering trade journal (caveat – I only read the online abstract & maybe I read something wrong).
Another Halocene Human
@different-church-lady: Maybe the OP means UCF. I’m sure they’d take him. You can field grad students, right? ;-)
Omnes Omnibus
@Bighorn Ordovian Dolomite: Okay, technically they will be playing outdoors for a couple of years while their new permanent sinkhole of public funds is being built.
Mudge
On the money issue, the minimum NFL salary this year for a 5th rounder (Locke) is $715,000. Kluwe made $1.45M. The salary cap is $123M. They will save $735,000 out of that amount (0.6%). I’m not sure I buy the pure economics reasoning.
gbear
@Seanly: The Vikings will be playing in the U of M’s new stadium until their stadium is finished.
Ronnie Pudding
I wouldn’t be surprised if opponents of gay marriage kidnapped and/or threatened to kill the Viking GM’s family if he didn’t release Kluwe. Possibly there was a threat to set off a nuclear device in Minneapolis.
His signing with the Raiders was in response by a counter-threat among gay marriage supporters which involved terrorist threats against the Pope.
scav
@Another Halocene Human: beyond customer? connotation attached seems vaguely contemptuous, but beyond that I’ve not a clue — not being a native Brit-speaker.
ETA. assuming you don’t mean person punting / (poling?/pushing) a punt on those fabled rivers etc.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mudge: He is a meh punter. He is getting older. Punters tend to be viewed as rather fungible. Basically, people at his level in his line of work get let go like this a lot.
Cassidy
@different-church-lady: @Another Halocene Human: Hahaha…I meant the Orlando Predators. The Soul isn’t the first arena football offer he’s gotten.
Roger Moore
@Another Halocene Human:
It means somebody who places bets in a betting establishment. See punt(2).
TAGinMO
As a gay Chiefs fan, I’m beyond conflicted about this news.
KeithW
A punter is a customer of a bookmaker (someone who has a “punt”, or a gamble). The term has been extended informally to mean any type of customer, so, say, a bar might talk about bringing in the punters.
NickT
@Another Halocene Human:
Customer. It probably began as a term for people betting on races (having a “punt” in Britspeak) and expanded to include anyone engaging in some sort of purchase.
Mark B
@Mudge: NFL teams will throw a lot of money at players who are considered stars, because they are the players who win games for them. Typically, the 10 best players make more than the rest of the roster, perhaps a lot more. Players who are average or below are expendable and if they can save a nickle by cutting them and replacing them with an equivalent player, they will do so. The salary difference in this case (about 700K) might be the difference between signing one of those high value players and letting them go.
Mark B
@gbear: If the NFL could outsource punting, they definitely would.
Steeplejack
@Roger Moore:
Or just a gambler in general.
Mr Stagger Lee
@Cassidy: Tebow did get an offer to play with the Omaha Beef,Lord if Omaha gets an NFL team , let em be called the Beef!!
justawriter
I think the fact that he covered the special logo patch commemorating the Football Hall of Fame with a post it note supporting inducting (former punter) Ray Guy had more to do with it than his advocacy of “teh gay.”
You can be as outspoken as you want, but you mess with the merchandising, you will be crushed like a bug.
Claessens1
New domed stadium to be in downtown Minneapolis. From what I’ve seen it was a financial decision to let Klue go.
Alex
Just looking at stats, he is an average to slightly below average NFL punter in terms of distance and net of return, but well below average in terms of sticking punts inside the 20.
In other words, a decent punter but not irreplaceable.
Punters are pretty fungible. Most likely the Vikings felt they could obtain a replacement or slightly better punter cheaper. With the salary cap, decisions to cut salaries are pretty remorseless
Bubblegum Tate
I was about to ask why the Raiders would sign Kluwe when they already had Shane Lechler, who is by far the best punter in the game. I didn’t even realize Shane Lechler had signed with the Texans.
Anyway, like others said above, Kluwe’s stats weren’t terrible, but they were bad enough to make it plausible that he was cut entirely for performance-based reasons, so it’s never going to be anything beyond speculation that he was cut for his outspokenness.
Craigo
Even average to good punters and kickers will be cut half a dozen times in their career – if they’re lucky enough to last that long. There’s no such thing as a franchise punter.
elmo
@TAGinMO:
Gay Charger fan here, and I feel no conflict. Eight months out o the year, I will love the guy. When he’s wearing the silver and black, I want him crushed.
snoey
They did Kluwe a favor by cutting him now and giving him time to sign with the Raiders or whoever it worked out with rather than having a “competition” with the draftee and then cutting him in August when the market is a lot thinner.
JayinCA
Oakland did have a franchise punter, but he signed with the Texans.
Quicksand
Well, one thing’s fore sure — this is a positive career move for Kluwe. He’ll be be on the field quite a lot for Oakland.
Laur
He’s old and he’s not the best. If most NFL teams are cool with keeping murderers and sexual assaulters around, I don’t think Kluwe’s twitter activism would bother them much.
Trollhattan
Poor guy, of all teams to end up with…. But as Quicksand points out, he’ll be getting so much work in games they’ll probably let him skip practise.
I’d be surprised if the Viks were doing anything beyond a run-of-the-mill player move. If he played for, say, the Titans or Panthers, it might fit the “needs” of the locals to move his ghey-talkin’ mouth along.
cminus
@Roger Moore: In Hong Kong (not strictly British English, but closer than American English), “punter” is sometimes used as a term for an amateur investor in stocks, which seems like “gambler” under another name.
John from Minneapolis
It’s both. Many people have pointed out that the Vikings got a cheaper punter. True. But there’s absolutely no doubt that the coaching staff grew tired of Kluwe’s activism and felt it was a distraction. Football is the most regimented sport, by far, and Kluwe refused to be a quiet, dutiful soldier.
From the St. Paul Pioneer Press:
But Kluwe’s advocacy apparently has worn thin on his coach.
“Those distractions are getting old for me, to be quite honest with you,” [Mike] Priefer said. “To me it’s getting old. He’s got to focus on punting and holding.”
He was asked whether he shared that with Kluwe.
“Nah,” Priefer said. “He don’t listen.”
http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_22185689/minnesota-vikings-coach-criticizes-chris-kluwes-distractions
someguy
@Mudge: Minimum for a 5th round punter is $390k; it’s estimated the new guy will sign for around $450k, including bonus. They’ll save about $1 million/year, at least at the outset of the new guy’s career.
Clearly, bigotry paid a major part in this… discrimination against older, over-paid, mediocre players. (Kluwe was at one point the highest paid special teams player in the NFL making around $5 million/year, and recording close to a 44 yard/punt average. He has slipped considerably since then).
He signed with the Raiders. Doesn’t mean he’s going to make the team, and he almost definitely won’t if he doesn’t recapture the form he showed 4-5 years ago. Some of his decline probably has to do with the decline in the quality of Minnesota’s special teams, but some of it also probably has to do with the fact that he’s aging, and only freaks and juicers play much past age 30 in the NFL.
Gratefulcub
No coach likes kickers, they tolerate their existence in the game. If they have to answer questions about their twitter, they better be damned good.
TAGinMO
@elmo: Yeah, that seems fair. But I need to develop some sort of plan for Raiders/Broncos games, too. No one I admire has ever played for either team before, so I always rooted for scoreless ties with injuries. Now I guess it’ll have to be “scoreless ties, but don’t hurt my boy.”
Oh, and no team should do anything that would hurt his face, obvs. {swoon}
Darkrose
I’m psyched! I may actually try to go to a Raiders game this year!
Well, no, not really. But it’s cool that he’s going to be in NorCal.
Heliopause
Kluwe is a middling punter by NFL standards. He also is an eight or nine year veteran, meaning that he’s entitled several hundred thousand dollars a year more than a younger player (the Vikings just drafted and signed a rookie punter who will make less than Kluwe’s contract). He also has a reputation for being a bit of “character” not only for his social views but for other behaviors as well, which some teams don’t mind but others do. Punters of Kluwe’s approximate ability are fairly easy to replace for less money, so that’s probably the biggest factor, though of course I can’t rule out that his outspoken social views might have played a role in the decision.
Joe Max
We Oaklanders welcome our new punter Chris Kluwe to our fair city! The things he’s said that they call “controversial” in Minnesota are just common sense here.
Dr. Squid
Kluwe had a ok year – above average yards per punt for him, and only 2 touchbacks. (Shane Lechler had 9 last year in Oakland.) Only 18 ended up inside the 20 – good for next to last place, ahead of only the Eagles putrid punt team. Then the Vikings went and drafted another punter out of UCLA in the 5th round. Not needing two punters from UCLA on the roster, the one who would give them more room under the salary cap was kept.
He’ll still be a serviceable punter in Oakland. And being a Ray Guy fan in Oakland goes over well there.
Dr. Squid
@Joe Max: I dunno. Minnesota has marriage equality, and Oakland doesn’t.
I know it’s easy for you to bag on Midwesterners for being backwards yokels, but please pay attention to current events.
Dale Gribble
@elmo: I would think you fans of other AFC West teams want Kluwe to be on the field as often as possible since that would mean the Raiders are punting.