Not sure how I am going to approach this subject and I am a little afraid of the repercussions of posting this, but since I kinda just usually let it all hang out, I’ll plow forward in my own way and deal with the fallout in a predictable manner- probably giving some online middle fingers and attacking people in the comments before calming down and apologizing profusely for being wrong. One of the best things about this website is that I’ve found that just being straight up and honest with you all always leads to straight up and honest responses, so whatever. Or maybe for once I won’t be wrong, but, regardless, y’all better strap in because there is going to be a lot to unpack in this one. Hold on.
Today was a legitimately hot and humid day, and after messing around in the yard for a while, I went to Wheeling, hit Lowe’s, Coleman’s, and Jebbia’s, and came home. Picked up some pretty amazing portabellas and some mangos that would make you cry (saving those sugar bombs for the Hawks/Red Wings game), and made some stuffed portabellas, some tomatoes/onions/cukes, and some sweet corn for dinner. I also made a command decision I was tired of being hot, so I turned on the ac to bring the heat down inside the house from 85. I hate turning it on this early, but the ceiling fans were not doing it and the thermostat had 85, so I had little choice.
At any rate, I’m a big fan of the Showtime show The Borgias– it is right up my alley. Pseudo historical dreck with lots of violence, scheming, T&A, and what now, as well as a fictional confirmation of everything I already think about the Catholic hierarchy. So I was watching the last two episodes, and in one they meet the Duke of Urbina, who trounces around naked in a sauna with what must be a 12 inch cock, and in the second, my absolute favorite character, Micheletto, the assassin, has several trysts with a male lover.
In both occasions, I got that metallic taste in my mouth and just thought “EWW.” I have no problem with stating out loud that I think another man is good looking- a couple months ago my mom dropped off the SI swimsuit edition (she gives it to me every year and I leaf through it and then take it up to the frat boys), and I remember seeing a pic of David Beckham selling watches and thinking “Damn, that’s a good looking man” and the other day I was chit chatting with commenter JenJen (a hockey fanatic) during the Pens game and said “I think Letang is a good looking man” and she responded “MMMMHMMM” or something to that extent. But, you know what? I don’t want to see their cocks or watch them have sex together.
But I just can’t watch scenes of gay sex on tv, despite the fact that I fully support people to do what they want to do and the only thing I think anyone should ever care about is who is in their own god damned bed. I’m in favor of gay marriage, I support complete rights for all Americans, I have no problem with men kissing in public or holding hands or adopting kids, but still, I react the same way every time I see men romantically involved in carnal acts on tv. I hit fast forward.
I guess what I am wondering is does this make me a bigot? Or is this what tolerance is all about? I may not find it appealing, but I have no problem with it. I have gay friends who tell me the idea of sleeping with a woman makes them physically ill, and I tell myself I am just the mirror image of that. Am I the only one?
But wait, it doesn’t stop there. Why is it that there is so much female nudity in films and tv shows, but male nudity is so rare I can count it on one hand? Is that because male sex does not sell, or is it because Hollywood is dominated by males and they are as squeamish as me about video of gay sex in cinema?
Like I said, a lot to unpack, but you all should just be happy you don’t have to deal with the shit rattling around my pumpkin sized head all day. And please, a serious discussion would be nice rather than dozens of comments speculating about whether I am closeted. I’m not. I’m hetero and I was born that way, just like all of you were born with your sexual preferences and orientations.
*** Update ***
JenJen texted me to call me a liar, because she was not lusting after Letang, but Pascal Dupuis. I don’t remember, because I was on the bottle.
Bostondreams
I think it doesn’t make you a bigot. It makes you a straight guy.
MTiffany71
No.
Yes.
That’s the idea.
Quaker in a Basement
Choosing what you want to watch does not make you a bigot.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
You are just the mirror image of that.
IMO.
aimai
Is this a joke? No, not wanting to watch two people (two other people, that is, other than yourself and your love object) of any sex or gender or history have sex or not finding it erotic does not make you a bigot. It just means you have good taste and are not a voyeur.
I also think that women in this society are trained to be consumers of the female body visually–we are taught to look at it, critique it, identify it, want it even if (or especially if) we are heterosexual while men are taught to look with suspicion and fear and envy on other men’s bodies and to avoid looking at them and getting aroused.
Myself, I’m het and happilly married. I don’t really look at people sexually at all, outside of my marriage. I’m just not interested in other people as erotic tools. That doesn’t mean that when I watch Lost Girl I don’t think Dyson is sexy–but I think Bo is sexy too. I’m not turned on by seeing Bo with the imaginary female lover Lauren because I find Lauren to be a sexless dishrag but the other female lead, Tamsin? Hubba hubba.
quannlace
Well, I think the reason that there’s more female than male nudity is cause most tv and movie execs are men.
Speaking as one of the female persuasion, I find bare male buttocks more endearing than arousing. Just want to pinch ’em.
Violet
Women will go see movies with naked women in them. Straight men don’t want to look at naked men, but they do want to see naked women. So movies have naked women in them. It’s wrong and misogyny is mostly the underlying reason for it. But money is the real reason. If naked men sold movies, there would be naked men in every movie.
JD Rhoades
It’s fine if you don’t like dick. I’m not an aficionado myself. Just leave those that do alone.
Hypatia's Momma
Male Gaze
rikyrah
I’m a woman who has no interest in seeing gay male sex scenes.
does anyone like watching gay male sex scenes outside of gay males?
Emma
Nope. It makes you an individual. Me, I can read about it, can even write it (slash and het) but I can’t watch it. Reading or writing it makes me use my imagination. Watching it feels like an intrusion in a very private space.
(added) as long as you don’t try to impose your standards on others it’s all good.
aimai
I wanted to add that John, you have the soul of a 14 year old girl. Not any girl. Not a teenageer. Just the same true soul that my own youngest daughter has. We named her “defender of Mankind” and that is who she turned out to be–true hearted, determined to do right, even if it kills her. That’s all well and good but sometimes you have to follow the pleasure principle: An’ it harm none, do as you will. With the accent on “do as you will” because you only go around once in life and its too short to be worrying about how your desires fit in with someone else’s desires. Its private, its personal, and you should damned well enjoy whatever it is. Stop worrying so much.
SiubhanDuinne
You’re fine, John. Don’t make it complicated.
mclaren
It makes you a typical American. You become physically ill at the suggestion of gay sex, but you love watching scenes like that one early on in The Borgias where a guy is stripped naked and strapped upside-down on a rack and then two burly executioners saw him in half with a giant saw while he screams insanely and his guts spray across the bystanders.
You’re a true blue American, Cole. You adore torture and despise sex. Nothing to see here, folks, move along.
aimai
@Violet: ***Magic Mike*** ahem.
Emma
@rikyrah: You haven’t encountered slash fanfiction yet, have you? :)
JayR
Meh. You like what you like. Other people like something else. As long as you live and let live, what’s the problem?
wonkie
.
I’m a pretty dispassioate viewer and can watch almost anything. My guess is that you aren’t, you get involved. Since it would make you uncomfortable to get involved iin gay sex yourself, it is uncomfortable to watch. That’s my guess about the psycology of it. I don’t think it means homophobia.
John Cole
@mclaren:
Do you even know what website you are commenting on? I adore torture? I hate sex?
For fuck’s sake, mclaren.
Suzanne
Patriarchy at work. The gross-out stems from fear, deep in the lizard brain. But you’re not a bigot. Your rational mind recognizes that your feelings are irrational.
jrg
I support the right to body modification, but I don’t want to watch someone stretch their earlobes to fit one of those huge rings in it. Your thing is your thing. As long as you understand your rights end where someone else’s nose begins, you’re not anti-gay (IMO).
jl
Being honest with yourself about what personally turns you on, and what does not, and what you find distasteful, and despite that fact you can view things from another person’s point of view despite your personal feelings does not make you bigot and it doesn’t make you gay, IMHO. Making big fatass judgments on other people and trying to force them to act according to your personal tastes does make you a bigot. IMHO.
Since Cole got started with the TMI here. I too can appreciate, in an odd distanced way, the romantic and sexual attractiveness of other men in some circumstances. Say, an art gallery. But no way I am ever going to act on it, it just can’t happen.
I also find some sex acts not exactly to my taste, regardless of the same or not same sexness of couple doing it. But, so what?
Mary G
I don’t know if it’s scientific, but it seems to me that men and women are often turned on differently – men are visual, women not so much. There’s more porn for men. For me, it’s smell and sound. Some guys, not their cologne, but just their own natural smell/pheromones, make my toes curl no matter what they look like.
I think you are a normal straight guy, John, a little more honest than most. Don’t they talk about the “ick factor”?
gene108
Did anyone else notice that minutes after Cole’s tornado thread, Anne had the GITMO thread up and then took it down?
Or was it just me?
Anyway, men making out is gross for straight guys. That’s the way we’re wired. It doesn’t make you a bigot.
Ash Can
You don’t want to watch something that’s generally considered an extremely private activity anyway. BFD. You don’t demonize the people who do it or the people who support their right to do it, you don’t want those people to be punished or discriminated against by law, and you don’t support politicians who support similar punitary and discriminatory policies. You’re fine.
Mr Stagger Lee
I just finished renting The Borgias on Netflix, speaking of male nudity in movies, I wonder how many were either hot or got creeped out on the nude fight scene Viggio Mortensen did in the movie Eastern Promises?
Just Some Fuckhead
Change of plans, John. I won’t be coming by this weeken with Brokeback Mountain.
ethanc
I’d frame the problem a little differently. Sex is inherently disgusting, but the sexytimes you like turn off the part of your brain that make you feel disgust. That stereotypically prepubescent “ewww, gross!” response is where we all start, the question is what we do with it as adults once we’re there. As long as you’re not making social judgments based on your subjective experience of disgust, I don’t think there’s a problem, there’s no need to feel guilt for fast-forwarding in the privacy of your own home.
gussie
“Myself, I’m het and happilly married. I don’t really look at people sexually at all, outside of my marriage.”
I’m het and happily married, and I don’t understand your second sentence.
gogol's wife
You must mean the Duke of UrbinO. I knew he had a big nose, but not the other part.
http://www.travelblog.org/Europe/Italy/Marche/Urbino/blog-593601.html
EmanG
There was a wild movie from the late 70’s called Jabberwalk. It featured lots of wild vignettes from these here Unites States, from clown ministry to dick tattoos to drive through funerals (I told you it was wild). One of the segments featured a gay man and his partner who were attending a group sex therapy session. He was uncomfortable in group sex situations and so they were trying to ease his hang ups (remember not when not wanting to fuck any and everyone was considered being “up tight”?) through naked group therapy. All I can remember thinking is “Why not avoid group sex?” All of which is to say, everything is not for everybody and if something gives you the heeby jeebies you are well within your right to avoid that thing. Doesn’t make you a bigot, makes you discerning with just a soupçon of self knowledge…
cathyx
I agreed to give my opinion of a book being written by someone. It was about a lesbian couple. I do not find nor did I find any interest in the subject. It was well written and kept my interest except I was completely turned off and wished the whole time I was reading it that the couple were heterosexual. I didn’t want to complete it and if I knew ahead of time that that was the topic, I would never have picked it up to read. And I do not have a problem at all with homosexuality. It’s just not my thing and is actually a turn off for me.
Some people are bisexual and it makes no difference to them what the sex of their partner is, but for me, I found it to be vitally important and I realized there is not one drop of bisexuality in me.
Hill Dweller
Speaking of dicks, Erick Erickson is making all sorts of friends on twitter by using the OK tornado to take shots at Obama.
Gustopher
This is just nonsense. I’m bi, but that doesn’t mean I want to watch senior citizen porn regardless of genders.
That’s not ageist — I hope seniors are getting it on all the time, I just don’t want to see it.
And finally, there’s a difference between being squeemish/phobic and a bigot. I think the use of words like homophobe as a standin for bigot really screws up discourse.
gene108
@Suzanne:
Define nudity?
Full frontal male nudity is rare.
If you made a movie, where men and/or boys were topless, you might could still get a PG rating.
Whatever scale we use to assess value to our bodily parts being revealed to the public, the male torso region isn’t a big deal. Male genitals is like the biggest deal evah.
Women’s torso region being fully revealed is still sort of a big deal. Women’s genitals is also a big deal, but nowhere near as big a deal as a man’s.
Mnemosyne
@Violet:
This right here. I think male frontal nudity is more common than it used to be (I saw Jamie Foxx’s personal parts in Django Unchained, even if they were upside-down) but most directors are men and they’re not comfortable with it, so they don’t show it.
wmd
@John Cole: I think you were just trolled.
You’re not a bigot.
I thought of urinal etiquette as another example of normative US heterosexual male behavior. When a US straight man has a choice off urinals normally they will choose to have an unused urinal on either side. This holds true even if there are dividing boards between urinals. US men just don’t want to see each other’s junk.
Just Some Fuckhead
I don’t mind watching naked people but ugly is where I draw line, not gender.
aimai
@gussie: Sorry, it was a run on. I don’t look at other people sexually other than my spouse. In real life. I have lusted in my heart after Dyson but he’s a fictional character and he’s in a more or less pg show. I wouldn’t be interested in watching him do porn because I’m just not interested. Does that make sense?
Dave
I think it’s interesting and a little nice that you, John, are experiencing your heterosexuality as a particular kind of force that’s not quite reducible to yourself. Your heterosexuality is a thing that you live with, that produces attractions and revulsions, but it’s not nature or “just the way you are” or whatever. It’s interesting to experience our limitations and definitions of our identity so immediately, I think. But that’s all it is–a definition, a limitation.
gussie
Hm. Maybe straight women can find another woman sexually (as opposed to merely visually) attractive, and not want to fuck her. But straight men, if we find another person–or vegetable or mineral–sexy, we don’t have that extra step. So if you’re looking at a gorgeous man, and you recognize he’s gorgeous, that’s cool with you, everything’s happy. But the minute you start to appreciate him as a sexual phenomenon, your lizard brain immediately goes to, ‘Do I want to suck that cock?’
And if you don’t, you recoil. Because you have no mechanism for finding him sexy (as opposed to attractive) without wanting to get all up in him.
jl
@gene108:
” Anyway, men making out is gross for straight guys. ”
I wouldn’t say it grosses me out. I find it odd, and simply cannot identify with any romantic or sexual feelings or attractions the guys involved might have. But, like I say, so what? If two dudes want to make out on a park bench, big whoop dee doo, no one is going to make me stand there and stare at them. Though seems like some anti gay fanatics have a mysterious urge to do just that, and then fight the memories all the way home and all through the night.
Some romantic and emotional rituals certain types of hetero couples go through are alien to me, and I feel the same distance from it, and I cannot see myself ever acting that way naturally.
Tastes differ, takes a lot of people to make a world, etc. etc.,
peej
I always thought that the reason there isn’t much male nudity in movies is that the actors don’t want to be compared to each other in terms of size.
JWL
“Why is it… male nudity is so rare I can count it on one hand”?
I think you may have answered your own question, Cole.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
gussie
@aimai: I was making a very lame ‘you’re married and still look at your spouse sexually?’ joke. My bad. Apologies.
Though I really am het and I really am happily married, and I look at about 90% of the women I see in real life sexually. (The exceptions being ones who are young enough to be my daughter or old enough to be my mother.) I know that’s v. male-gazey, but I’m male. That’s my gaze. I find it hard to imagine a world where I didn’t look at women sexually.
gbear
@rikyrah: I’m a gay male who doesn’t like watching gay sex scenes. I don’t like watching straight sex scenes. For me, porn just turns sex into a commodity.
I also find people to be much more sexy if they still have a lot of their clothing on. The mystery makes things more interesting…
SatanicPanic
I’m kind of disappointed, I expected something more earth-shattering reveleation than – I don’t like looking at naked dudes. Doesn’t make you a bigot.
quannlace
“I thought of urinal etiquette”
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hmmm. Did they cover that in Charm School? ;-)
dance around in your bones
John, I’m not crazy about seeing the beast with two backs regardless of the sexual orientation. I find it’s kinda boring after a few minutes. Like, this is private! I think it just feels better when you are in the moment and not observing….I realize there are many people who would disagree.
I remember living in Holland back in the 70’s, and being gobsmacked by full-frontal nudity (male and female) being shown on the TV machine, even in sit-coms. Sort of desensitized you to the nudity aspect.
But really, isn’t the sexual act sort of comical in a way of it’s own? Regardless of who is participating? I’m all for feeling it, not watching it. Maybe I am an old, but I felt that way even back in the day, watching Deep Throat and Behind The Green Door (It was groovy then).
Feel free to mock.
lojasmo
@MTiffany71:
Pretty much. I think there’s so much more female nudity on TV (and in movies) than male because males are, for the most part, the target demographic.
I don’t dig portrayals of gay sex, but I also don’t like to watch straight sex. Rape scenes make me INTENSELY uncomfortable, as do depictions of infidelity.
Anoniminous
@rikyrah:
There’s a Fangirl subculture enthralled by yaoi.
ETA: And what @Emma said.
Keith
I have friends who dry heave at mere mention of gay sex. I’ve always assumed they were just putting on a show so people wouldn’t think they’re gay. My opinion is that seeing guys kiss or have sex doesn’t make you gay, so what’s the big deal at its existence/presence? I’d prefer seeing that than someone eating dog shit or vomit, and I’ve nearly everything (my mother once dated an attorney defending someone against obscenity charges, so I’ve seen some pretty hardcore stuff)
Lyrebird
I find dentistry revolting. If they made a film even just of ordinary cavity filling… forget extractions!… I would walk out rather than watch it.
I like many dentists and am glad they do what they do! And thank the FSM the surgeon approved general anasthesia when I needed my wisdom teeth out!
So sure, there’s lots of sexist bias in the media (try taking a bus and staying sane while they endlessly loop Gilligan’s Island tapes) and thankfully there are other cultures still around which encourage admiration of male beauty, too, but my main point is, Sir Cole — don’t worry about this one.
As one of my favorite gay-rights advocates put it, you’d probably get a massive “ICK” reaction if you try to imagine your grandparents having hot sloppy sex, too… So no, since you don’t use this aversion as an excuse for bigotry, you’re not acting bigoted!
my 2cents’ worth
PS: ditto to efgoldman, praying for peace and safety for soonergrunt and co.
cathyx
When I watch a man and a woman kiss, I watch the man when they kiss. I realized that when I once watched a movie where 2 women were kissing and I had no one to watch. When two men are kissing, well, there’s lots to see.
Not my usual nym
I’m going to anonymize myself for this one and not use my usual nym.
Male parts don’t squick me out exactly, but they don’t do anything for me either. They’re just parts. But I was always puzzled by the focus on the male anatomy in straight porn. I could never figure out why porn spent so much time looking at the boner and why showing the male orgasm is so important. If I’m watching porn, it’s female anatomy and female pleasure I want to see.
Based on what’s out there, apparently that’s a minority opinion among straights.
I also seem to be in the minority in not being attracted to teenagers.
raven
You need to police up this McClaren motherfucker on the tornado thread. Talk a bout cocksuckers you don’t want to see.
IowaOldLady
@Gustopher: This reminds me of a question posted on a writers board I belong to. The person wanted to know what other people would never choose to write about because it squicked them out. The examples given were pedophilia, necrophilia, sex with animals, and old people having sex.
Three of these things belong together,
Three of these things are kind of the same.
But one of these things just doesn’t belong here,
Now it’s time to play our game. (or words to that effect )
Not my usual nym
In moderation. I guess considering the topic that’s pretty hard to avoid. I think it was the fact that I commented on p*rn.
SatanicPanic
@aimai: I don’t really look at people sexually at all, outside of my marriage…
ME NEITHER!
(just throwing that out there on the off chance my wife reads this thread)
CaseyL
Being in favor of equal rights for GLBT people means, well, being in favor of equal rights.
It doesn’t mean you’re obligated to enjoy watching gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual, etc., persons have sex.
I’m pretty fond of sex; that doesn’t mean I have to enjoy watching people do it, even when they’re doing something I enjoy doing. In fact, as time goes on, I enjoy explicit cinematic sex – of any kind – less and less. I feel like an involuntary voyeur.
Litlebritdifrnt
@rikyrah: Personally I found the sex scenes in Torchwood to be extremely erotic.
Omnes Omnibus
Cole, since, I haven’t seen The Borgias, I don’t really know how the dudes’ junk was portrayed, but I would think that in the course of playing sports, being in a frat, and being in the army, you saw a lot of dudes’ junk.
El Cid
It doesn’t make me a bigot to feel squeamish when people eat certain things that I hate. It happens.
jl
@raven: I have the same reaction to the trolls as I do to two men kissing, or a hertero couple that always wear coordinated clothes and have borged into a unit and one of them gets mighty disturbed if anything disrupts the unity.
I find it very odd, and feel a total distance and alienation. But I am not disgusted or irritated.
Am I a bigot on trolls, or perhaps troll-curious? Who knows? Ahh, the mysteries of life…
Edit: well, OK I get irritated when a troll comes after me, but that is different.
Lyrebird
@rikyrah: The gay romance & beginning-to-hook-up portions of the Full Monty nearly made me cry with longing… not sure if that counts?
Punchy
@Just Some Fuckhead: Really? Two attractive men engaged in foreplay beats (heh) a naked woman of lesser skin tone or body mass index? Not in my book, but TETO
Randy P
@peej: Seems to be an American hangup. I’ve seen plenty of male frontal nudity in European movies.
I just rewatched a French comedy called “My Wife is an Actress”. There’s a scene in there where the female lead doesn’t want to do a nude scene and says to the director “If I’m going to be naked, maybe everybody else should be. Why shouldn’t I get an eyeful too?”
Next scene… he takes her up on it.
greennotGreen
Can we have another thread? A whole bunch of ways of telling John how normal he is is boring.
I would rather talk about his fat cat. Admit it, there is a bunch of Tunch.
Susan S
See John Cole..this is why you are great. You go ahead and say aloud what most of us think..I am a very hetero lady..had a magical interesting life when my children were young [out of town for conventions..never messed around in front of them..just thought it was a line I shouldn’t cross].
.I was married and divorced three[3] times before i was 36..and didn’t get married till I was a Sr in college. Aids had not appeared and looking back, I realize I was very lucky and very lonely..but I made love each time..and the point of all this is that I don’t like to read sex scenes, I don’t discuss this with my friends, either male or female and I think its kind of sad how the joy and mystery that is great sex disappears when shown on a screen.
When I was in my mid 40s I got into a neat conversation with a 80 year old bond trader from Boston..he was magical..he had a delightful spirit and it was a delightful evening. He said something to the effect that wasn’t it wondrous how two souls could meet, have such a union, and then go on..and I knew exactly what he meant. I don’t want the puritans to take back over..but I do think that what you are really objecting to is being forced to watch was is essence a brilliant, intensely private,spark of joy.. When it is public, too much is lost…whether gay or straight
Oh, and don’t you love they way the jerk goes straight for the torture assumption. SS..Simply Stupid.
kc
You’re just now turning on your AC? You’ve been living in 85 degree heat indoors and you have AC?
Now THAT is fucked up.
lojasmo
@John Cole:
Lacks an iota of self-awareness. Move on, John.
swbarnes2
Everyone is irrational about all kinds of things. But you are aware of your irrationality, and you don’t get it get in the way of supporting fair policies.
That puts you light years ahead of a hell of a lot of people, morally.
No one can help what they feel. You can only help what you do.
WereBear
I adore Mr Mortensen’s… mojo. But my primary thought during that scene was wincing at how vulnerable he was. Which I suppose is the point.
specialed5000
Is that Coleman’s fish market? I miss those sandwiches.
belieber
Cole better not watch Spartacus then. More cock swinging around than you can shake a stick at. Gay sex, oiled up gladiators etc. Also the best damn cable series I have ever seen! Blood, gore, tits, and ass all over the place. Except for the gay sex and cock swinging scenes I loved every minute of it.
Michael G
I can’t stand to watch fat people have sex AND I AM FAT.
As far as I am concerned, case closed.
Southern Beale
I’m hardly the Supreme Decider of who gets let into the Bigot Club, but I don’t think requiring people to be comfortable watching sexually explicit material of any sort — gay, straight, bi, furry, whatever — is the marker of bigotry. I mean my goodness, I don’t exactly enjoy watching graphic sex scenes of any sort in the movie theater. 99% of the time it’s completely unnecessary and totally gratuitious. That just makes me old, not a bigot.
I’d say that’s what’s going on with you, John. You’re old.
I dunno. I don’t want to watch people having sex. I don’t get the whole “sex tape” thing that kids today do, either. Go have all the hot, sweaty, monkey love you want, folks, I don’t care. But I sure as hell don’t need to watch it.
Don K
John, to be honest I get the same feeling when I see straight sex scenes on TV. Something inside me just says, “Ewww!” So no, you’re not an anti-gay bigot unless I’m an anti-straight bigot.
lojasmo
The other day, I came home, and my sone and his buddies were in his man cave (the garage) and were watching some show (glee, maybe) and they all had their eyes covered. My son said “gay sex” and the two guys on the TV were kissing.
I said “that ain’t sex.”
Omnes Omnibus
@WereBear:
That was pretty much my reaction. We dudes get pretty protective of those parts.
EriktheRed
Naw.
Some things you just can’t change about yourself even if your POV has changed for the better.
EriktheRed
Naw.
Some things you just can’t change about yourself even if your POV has changed for the better.
Bud
Speaking as a gay guy, I know for a fact that most of us do not have a problem with straight guys thinking gay sex is kind of icky. We understand…I love the women in my life, but, you know, eww.
It’s just funny to read this thread and hear all these people concur. We really live in our little bubbles in this world – as a gay guy in SF, the idea that lots of people wouldn’t find gay sex hot is sort of strange to me.
Gravenstone
@Anoniminous: I have a friend who just got published in that genre. Not my taste at all, but I was happy for her.
I’ve always posited that the attraction of porn for a lot of people was being able to mentally (perhaps only subconsciously) insert themselves in place of one of the participants. That’s why men seem to have an easier time accepting lesbian porn, but struggle with gay male porn; and the obverse for female viewers. Granted, this clearly isn’t true for all, but I think there’s at least a kernel of it in many cases.
Roger Moore
@John Cole:
Forget it Jake, it’s Chinatown.
Just Some Fuckhead
@lojasmo:
.. while stripping my clothes off, slowly and deliberately, never losing eye contact with the young men.
different-church-lady
How old are you?
Just Some Fuckhead
@Punchy: Stop calling me gay, douchebag.
raven
@John Cole: Like I said.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gravenstone:
I have a friend who always said that the appeal of g/g porn to men was that one could agree with both of the girls.
BC
I don’t think it’s bigoted to not want to watch gay scenes, but I do think a lot of the anti-gay community cannot see a gay man without visualizing gay sex, as if being gay is the end-all of that person. I think this is the reason why so many use such hateful language toward gays. I don’t like to see sex scenes of any orientation on television or in the movies, although I have no problem reading them.
jl
@wmd:
I would like to read about male urinal etiquette. Maybe men don’t like to see each other’s junk, but seems like they like to display psychological junk during conversations over the ol’ urinal.
I would read one of those, and I would not worry that I was gay, or had a golden rain fetish, or would want to have sex with, or in, a urinal. Damn, am I secure, or what?
JScott
Person doesn’t care to watch something in which that person has no interest.
Yeah. Bigot.
The “metallic taste” is a little lizard brainy, but as long as you’re not thinking it’s the voice of FSM, you should be fine.
Take two leather daddies and call me in the morning.
raven
Seven dead kids in one of the schools and they’ve gone to a recovery mission.
Mr Stagger Lee
@belieber: Blood rains down from an angry sky MY C*CK RAGES ON!!! MY C*CK RAGES ON!The sex in that series was over the top, though I was turned on by the love scene that involved Lucy Lawless(Lucretia) and Jaime Murray(Gaia). I wish I was Batiatus in that scene. (That was from Spartacus, Gods of the Arena)
Just Some Fuckhead
I think it’s bigoted to be repulsed by gay sex so I force myself to watch it, in the name of equality. Sometimes I’ll even masturbate just for the feeling of knowing I’m making the world a better place.
RinaX
I’m a straight female, and I can find male sex scenes appealing, if both males are attractive. I don’t know what that means, other than I’m shallow.
raven
Seven dead kids in one of the schools and they’ve gone to a recovery mission.
Redshift
You like what you like. As long as you’re not saying the things you don’t like shouldn’t be shown or shouldn’t exist, you’re not a bigot.
hilzoy
No, it doesn’t make you a bigot.
Anything else we can help with?
Omnes Omnibus
@jl: Urinal etiquette test.
The Dangerman
I noticed Urinal Etiquette discussed above. Take the test:
http://www.drinknation.com/fun/urinaltest
BTW, the famous Madonna Inn is in my area; their urinals have to be seen to be believed, indeed, I have had women come into the head to take pictures while I’m there on, um, personal business (but it’s the Madonna and everyone understands).
ETA: Shakes FIST at my neighbor at 100 (since this is a urinal subthread, I placed CAPS where appropriate).
Just Some Fuckhead
What does what you watch even mean about your sexual preference? Sometimes I’ll watch a little beast, maybe a chick with a horse. I’m not sexually attracted to horses.
jl
@hilzoy: I think Cole wants some reassurance on finding men attractive in some circumstances too. You forgot that part.
Calming Influence
No John, you’re not a bigot. You’re a lesbian born in a man’s body.
Omnes Omnibus
@The Dangerman: My link was better.
Poopyman
@raven: And 30 still missing.
NickT
I don’t find the scenes of torture in Game of Thrones anything other than sadistic filth. Torture enthusiasts may call me a bigot, but I find I can live with that perfectly well.
raven
@Poopyman: Yea and when they go from rescue to recovery it’s bleak.
jl
@Omnes Omnibus:
I didn’t do very well and will have a severe identity crisis over it. Amorphous but very scary ‘doubts’ enter my mind!
Thanks.
Poopyman
@Omnes Omnibus: That is damned dumb.
Meaning I got 30/60.
Anoniminous
@Gravenstone:
A friend’s daughter (15) is heavy into it. Of the parents, he thought it was disturbing (although IMO mostly due to teenage daughters exploring their sexuality being life’s little revenge for being a teenage boy) and she thought the whole thing was hilarious … with his reaction being the icing on the cake.
Congratulations to your friend.
Poopyman
Oh, and John. If you think “that’s gross!” you’re not a bigot. If you think “those guys are animals!” then we might need to talk.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@jl: The only urinal conversation I recall having, reading, or hearing about was Hunter Thompson’s interview with George McGovern in Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail. Now THAT was Journalism!
ETA: Other than conversations about the guys pissing in the sinks while waiting in line for a urinal when Memorial Stadium sold out.
NickT
@Omnes Omnibus:
The only possible response to that is: “Piss off!”
PhoenixRising
@cathyx: Please help, wrangling with editors this week.
Was this book featuring a lesbian couple narrative that included the sexytimes? Or was it their mere same-sex-ness that you found unappealing?
Omnes Omnibus
@Poopyman: The logic is pretty unassailable.
You are obviously the guy who makes everyone in the men’s room feel vaguely uncomfortable. Then we can’t pee. And then we have to stand there longer, uncomfortable and unable to pee. You bastard.
Poopyman
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ve noticed that. As I stood there, just staring at the side of your head.
Sadie
I’m a heterosexual woman, but I honestly find male-on-male sex scenes more erotic than male-female sex scenes. Female-on-female does nothing for me.
Poopyman
@Poopyman: The big one, you perv!
jl
@NickT:
” I don’t find the scenes of torture in Game of Thrones anything other than sadistic filth. ”
I have trouble with that kind of scene too. Same with graphic violence in movies, and slasher films. Once it goes past what is needed to establish something dramatically, I cannot get the horror of such a thing happening to anyone out of my mind. It throws me out of ‘suspension of disbelief’ or interest in the story or the characters.
Two dudes kissing, or EVEN two hot babes making out, hey, I can deal with that.
JenJen
THAT IS A FILTHY LIE, Cole. I was lusting after Pascal Dupuis, not Kris Letang!
But I can understand getting my hot, husky hockey Quebecois men confused. Purrrrrrrrrrr
On the agenda for tonight? Let’s Go Red Wings! Clap-clap-clapclapclap.
BenjaminJB
I think the people in this thread are substantially right to point out as long as you’re not restricting others, you’re way ahead of the pack. Then again, as an ex-con, I think you’re way ahead of the pack definitionally.
However, personally, I would like to think that future generations that have not been basted and cooked in a culture of reflexive homophobia and homoparanoia will be less prone to that metallic taste. I think that’s less “lizard brain” and more our intolerant society’s teachings. Arc of history and all that jazz.
Southern Beale
Also, it totally pisses me off that I had to turn our A/C on yesterday, too. It’s too fucking hot for May. It feels like July.
jl
@Omnes Omnibus:
” Then we can’t pee. ”
Well, that’s going to happen sooner or later anyway. Don’t blame an innocent urinal test.
LAC
@gussie: that goes double for me. LOL!!
Poopyman
BTW, I see that the VA hospital is about 8 miles north of Moore, so if Soonergrunt was at work he was well out of the way. And I would hope he would do the logical thing and build his home close to his work. I hope.
I know his father and sister are farther south, though, so good luck to them. And to all in OK tonight.
cbear
@Just Some Fuckhead: Yeah, right. Like you’ve never once thought about what it would be like to ride Trigger when you were a kid.
Lying bastard.
wmd
@jl: Didn’t you get shown this video in grade school?
cxs
@Susan S: Yikes, mom! I was reading this and thought “that sounds familiar” and it was you!
NickT
@jl:
I could kinda sorta understand some showing of torture if the torture scenes in Game of Thrones did anything for the plot, but they really don’t, either on TV or in the books. It looks uncomfortably as if the screenwriters get their jollies from this stuff, or maybe they think we do – which is arguably worse.
I guess my view on the same sex scenes is that it doesn’t do anything for me, partly because it generally looks so massively unconvincing, partly because (and yes, I admit to being boring here!) it gets in the way of the story. I don’t really need fake details of which Cardinal supposedly buggers another and whether cucumbers or golden statues of Apollo are involved. I just want to know what is going on with everyone’s nefarious plots and schemes. I must admit though, I would hardly have thought it possible to make the Borgias so damnably boring. It’s not as if the historical material isn’t inherently rather dramatic.
I ought to add that I find the gratuitous soft porn scenes in Game of Thrones deeply irritating and more than a little flavored with embarrassing misogyny. How many more times do we have to waste 20% of an episode on scenes from Littlefinger’s brothel?
In real life, as far as I am concerned, so long as full consent is involved and everyone is happy, pork away pals and palesses and may Dionysos be with you!
karen
@rikyrah:
Moi. And I’m a bisexual female.
PhoenixRising
Cole, I’m really, really gay. I think I’m gayer than Ellen. And two dudes doing it is the only thing grosser than one dude and one woman to me. I’m pretty sure the explanation is that I have specific tastes, not that I’m a bigot.
Also, I don’t interpret this stuff politically since I figured out how involuntary it is. I recently noticed that the 3 days each month I’m ovulating, the smell of dude sweat doesn’t gag me. The other 27 days, I could puke from it. So when I’m fertile, I’m not nauseated by the odor of men, which is apparently my personal lesbian version of ‘women are attracted to man sweat if they’re fertile’. At my end of the spectrum, “attracted”=not actively nauseated by. We’re all made how we’re made.
RevRick
John, if you haven’t gotten enough affirmation that you’re otay by now my addition won’t matter, but I think you have drawn a false conclusion from your feelings and that is that feelings are necessarily an accurate moral gauge and reflection of truth.
They aren’t.
I had this epiphany years ago when I was changing my then infant daughter’s foul diaper. Now that was eww to the nth degree. (And no, I don’t equate a dirty diaper with gay sex!) My feelings told me to flee, but my moral compass demanded I stay and change it. Bottom line: feelings are an unstable basis for moral judgments. Are you making that error?
Also, others have mentioned misogyny, male gaze and profit motives for the vast differential in male/female nudity in commercial arts.
I’d like to suggest something else. We men are socialized to see our bodies as things to be used and not as possible objects of beauty. Just think of how you describe your own body here, John. At best you make it sound like a lap for Tunch. Could that be part of it?
Omnes Omnibus
@PhoenixRising: Now I feel like I need to go shower.
NickT
@RevRick:
lojasmo
@Just Some Fuckhead
You are not funny, though you obviously think you are. Asshole.
mouse tolliver
While male nudity was extremely rare when I was in middle school. (Trust me. I’m an expert on this.) It’s a lot more common now. Name any actor, and I bet I could point to a movie or TV show where he shows his ass. Maybe you’re just tuning out the male nudity because you’d rather not see it.
Male nudity absolutely does sell. Magic Mike made $167,221,571. It only cost $7 million, so look for Magic Mike 2: Electric Boogaloo.
PS — While we’re on the subject of men’s bodies, have you guys seen Dan Savage’s husband? Oh my god!
karen
@Emma:
That and yaoi. And I just sold an original male/male short story to a publisher for the first time.
eemom
Late to the, um, partay, but since it’s already been mentioned — that whole urinal thing is what creeps me out. Why don’t y’all just do it in the stalls like we do?
The Populist
@Quaker in a Basement:
Amen. Not wanting to see two guys do it doesn’t make you a bigot. What makes somebody a bigot is telling those two men on the tv that they can’t do that, they can go to jail, be killed, have their rights taken away. A bigot tries to get shows like this off the air.
I watch a lot of the same shows. When I see two guys getting it on I giggle and I just roll my eyes. I don’t care they are gay but it doesn’t do anything for me the way a nice looking woman might do it.
Hope this makes sense.
The Populist
@mouse tolliver:
It’s interesting because I really do not count bare butts as nudity per se. A guys junk = nudity, a gal who doesn’t where one of those merkin contraptions is nudity. Boobs only are partial nudity.
There is a hang up with young actresses when it comes to anything below the belt. As they mature, I notice many do bare it all in film.
NickT
@karen:
Congratulations!
300baud
One thing to consider is that before you started having straight sex, it probably seemed pretty revolting to you. (What kid hasn’t said, “Eeew, kissing is gross?”) If you stopped eating meat for a few years, cooking a steak would start to seem pretty disgusting. I know people who think eating eggplant, or sour cream, or avocado is implausibly gross. Basically, I think anything messily organic can seem repulsive if you aren’t used to it and/or don’t derive pleasure from it.
On the other hand, America has conditioned males pretty heavily on gay=wrong. We have started to fix that. But people have a lot of hidden racial bias, so it’s plausible that people have a lot of hidden anti-gay bias.
Roger Moore
@eemom:
Not always an option. The line for the stalls is generally longer and slower moving than the one for urinals. Also, too, the urinals are better designed for the purpose. The point of the etiquette is to provide the people around you with a modicum of privacy in a situation that doesn’t provide it to them naturally.
PhoenixRising
@Omnes Omnibus: Sorry, dude.
Or so I assume.
Omnes Omnibus
@PhoenixRising: It’s all good. I just found it kind of funny.
Emma
@karen: Congrats! I’ve only done fanfic so far. Thinking of getting my toes wet in the real thing…
gelfling545
I really don’t care for explicit sex scenes whether hetero or gay and have been known to skip over the detailed descriptions in novels. I just find that if you’re not participating it’s either ridiculous or off-putting. Obviously not everyone (hardly anyone?) feels this way but though I can get quite invested in the fortunes of the characters in a novel or film this is just TMI for me.
Anoniminous
@Omnes Omnibus:
By available evidence there is a 3/28th percent chance not showering would be the better choice.
Anoniminous
@karen:
You’re not friends with Gravenstone by any chance?
Congratulations, whether or no.
Omnes Omnibus
@Anoniminous: I don’t think that either option is going to improve my odds with PR; I just don’t want to make her ill.
PhoenixRising
@Anoniminous: I think you forgot to multiply that by the 93/100 of the chicks at your gym who find that sort of thing attractive, rather than not-as-pukey. But good point.
MattR
@eemom: Then you would truly hate the troughs.
ruemara
I’ve seen het couples that were amazing libido turn-offs and gay ones that weren’t. You’re fine, you’re just you. Nothing wrong with that.
muddy
@eemom: I was working in an engineering office and there was an issue with the office cleaners. I said I’d take the extra cash and do it myself. The men’s room there had one stall. I go in there to clean the toilet, and it is quite pristine under the seat! I was interested to see there was a flush on the urinal, I had not thought of that.
So I’m back out drawing plans, and I remark to a co-worker about the clean toilet. I say it’s never like that at my house. I asked if it was due to people having worse aim at home drinking beer, or did they clean up after themselves in the office knowing I would bitch if it was nasty?
It did not occur to me until I was told that having the urinal was why the toilet was clean. Just another world to me.
Lori
@Violet: If more straight (or bi) women had more money, then I think there would be a lot more male nudity in movies. As gayness for guys becomes more widely socially accepted, I think the same thing will happen. I’d love to see more male nudity and gay male sexuality in movies, and wish there was way less female nudity. That’s just me, but, totally different than the way you think most women are I guess.
Comrade Dread
No, dude, you’re fine. I’m straight and the same way.
There are some dudes that I can say, “That’s a good looking guy” about, but it’s “I wish I looked like that” not “I want to go bat for the other team.”
Ruckus
I’d say you sound pretty normal. Not that normal is necessarily good or bad, it just is what it is.
For myself I couldn’t care less about seeing gay sex, I’m just not interested. But I figure that’s because I’m not gay. Know a few who are and have heard the same as you, gay men are not interested in hetro sex. Just doesn’t float their boat. Probably one of the ways they know they are not hetro. I have a lesbian friend who says the same thing about hetro sex, she just not interested, has no desire to view it in any way.
The fact that you accept it fully without caring to have anything to do with it is the good part.
ruemara
@rikyrah: Um, depending on the gays in question, they can be hot. Plus, “World’s Greatest First Love” is hilarious and fun yaoi.
mouse tolliver
@The Populist: I use the TV Guide standard. (Or the one they used to use in the 1980s.) Full boob or full on butt crack = nudity. Poorly cropped boob & butt or sideboob or sidebutt = partial nudity. And full frontal means nudity will be listed first on the parental advisory in my mind.
eemom
@Roger Moore:
@muddy:
hmm. I’m the mother of a 14 year old son who doesn’t drink beer and still has, erm, aiming challenges…..and now I’ve gone from being grossed out by the very concept of urinals, to thinking about googling “home urinal installation.”
I learn so much on this blog.
Ruckus
@eemom:
Because we can do it standing up a lot easier?
Because some of us learn to write our names in the snow and a urinal is just an extension of that juvenile practice?
Because they are there? And of course they are there because they are cheaper to build.
ETA Saw your answer and want to break it to you gently but some guys aim never gets better. Sorry. Don’t understand why, you’d think with all the practice…
Beth in VA
@gbear: This. It’s one thing to be doing it, quite another to watch others doing it. Sex is beautiful, but I get grossed out watching porn films after about 5 minutes–it’s visceral, no matter who it is.
Heliopause
John, the thought of gay sex grosses me out. So does the thought of eating pineapple and eggs. That’s just me.
I’ve played the game of imagining having gay sex with the most intense fantasy-imagination I can muster, and it grossed me out. What this did, however, was give me a greater appreciation for what other people go through. It made me think of what it must have been like down the years for all those gay people who lived straight lives because society demanded it of them. Imagining gay sex and noting my visceral reaction made me more empathetic, not less. What if I lived in a society which demanded that I live a sex life that I didn’t prefer, or that I found downright distasteful? Wouldn’t be fair.
Mustang Bobby
No, you’re not. Like you need to hear it from me.
Ruckus
@Heliopause:
That is a great point.
Ruckus
@Randy P:
Our puritanical roots in this country are amazingly broad and usually fucking stupid, and they end up doing exactly the opposite of the intent.
In the 70’s I was walking down the street in Copenhagen and walked by a pharmacy. In the front window was a full life sized ad poster for Chanel. It was a completely naked woman, full frontal. Across the street was a grammar school. That would not be allowed here today anywhere, let alone 40 yrs ago.
RSA
@Heliopause:
I’m reminded of when I was a teenager, wondering what I’d do with my life. I’d been thinking about maybe becoming a doctor. And then I saw a documentary of what a hip replacement looked like in the operating room. Holeee shit. I decided to go in a different direction.
Of course, my visceral reaction has nothing to do with my thoughts about surgery. Ditto gay sex. (I also sometimes tell this story in arguments about abortion. Visceral responses aren’t a good foundation for moral judgments.)
Ruckus
@RSA:
I spent a couple of hours in a cadaver lab when I was in pre-med and it wasn’t the sight of the parts that I was less than excited about, it was the casualness of the person showing us the body. He was so used to seeing it, cutting it open and all that it was not big deal anymore. It was the normal course of events and I wasn’t sure I could ever get there. So I didn’t.
Deborah
Well I’m tired of women’s breasts being displayed all of the time, especially when they aren’t attractive. And to me, most breasts just aren’t that attractive, but I don’t think I ever thought much about till this age of always showing them no matter what the entertainment from police procedurals, to awards shows, to whatever we’ve got Suzy Cremcheese in a plunging neckline. I don’t know any women who dress like that at work.
I’m not a prude. The only reason I mind them on GOT is that we so rarely see the attractive men in scanty clothing.
I don’t know. This breasts thing just irritates me. Maybe it will pass. I never used to think about it at all. Now, I kind of keep score.
Violet
@Lori: It’s not about thinking, it’s about what is. If women refused to see movies with naked women in them, then maybe fewer would get made. Target audience still seems to be boys and men, and women secondarily. Movies are about money. We’re seeing changed in how movies are made, where they open, who they star, etc. as more movies are made for international audiences and their money.
Keith G
It’s all in the writing and the acting. If two guys, girls, or mixed are able to catch lightening in a bottle and actually evoke a truthfully organic and understatedly intense, erotic passion then I am on board. If it is gratuitous, I am gone.
Again, the writing, the set up and the acting are the key.
edit..Thought experiment, What if John substituted race for gender? Would he still not be even a bit bigoted?
RSA
@Ruckus:
Wow. This dredges up another memory of mine–a field trip to the Hopkins med school (I don’t remember if I was in high school or college, and I wasn’t going to be a doctor, but why not?) I had a similar experience, I think, though it only lasted a few minutes, watching some guy opening up a cadavar’s chest cavity to show us what was inside. Still, I might be confusing this with horror movies I’ve seen.
Gavin Kith
Bill Burr has a bit on this exact topic that’s funny and thought provoking. Oh, pardon me, Cole thinks Burr should go back to flipping burgers…never mind.
NickT
@Keith G:
Damn silly thought experiment you’ve got there.
jl
@RSA:
” So does the thought of eating pineapple and eggs. That’s just me. ”
Now that has me intrigued. I might try an experiment in the kitchen.
Am I pineapple and egg curious, you betcha!
Gotta be a way to get those two together. I guess dessert custards don’t count. I’ll think on it.
stoned stats
Heteronormativity. It’s not your fault. It was just the way you were made. As for me, cock in the ass is hawt Hawt HAWT!
NickT
@jl:
Isn’t there something in Leviticus about pineapples? If only some sober, theological brainbox like Michelle Bachmann could advise us…
stevie
I kind of feel the same way. I mean that I find the idea of any kind of anal stuff just entirely gross. And the idea of getting close to a woman’s privates pretty much the same. That said, I never see two men or two women together showing affection in public and start thinking about what kind of (to me) gross stuff they might be doing in bed. I never occurs to me to wonder about that stuff and I definitely don’t think that doing stuff I wouldn’t do means they are less than I am or deserve less rights than I do. This is how I know that the homophobes are the real perverts. They look at two people just showing affections/loving each other and their minds race immediately to the bedroom instead of just thinking, ” Isn’t that nice, they really care about each other.”
Ruckus
@RSA:
The lab I was in was at USC med school and our guide was a 3rd year student. Didn’t know anyone else there so when they divided us into smaller groups it was very interesting. Some of the other folks in our group were not at all comfortable in the lab, some were, like me OK with it, while one wanted to dive right in and get hands on. I’ll bet she went on to be a surgeon.
In many ways I wish I’d stuck with it, I’ll bet my life would have been quite a bit different. Or all the work would still not have gotten me that piece of paper with MD on it. Oh well water under the bridge and all that. OTOH I am still eating regularly and have a roof over my head. Good times.
Keith G
@NickT: Not really.
How far can a claim of, “This is what I am used to and this is what I feel is appealing.” get one? In that light, how different is it to feel icky and turn away from a same sex tryst on TV than it is if it were a mixed race tryst – if that was something the viewer was not used to and did not feel was appealing.
NickT
@Keith G:
No, it is an idiotic thought experiment – and pretty offensive to boot. Here’s Cole trying to think through something which matters to him about gender and sexuality – and all you can do is suggest “Imagine a situation in which you might be labeled a racist”. That’s beyond preposterous.
RSA
@Ruckus:
In my five-minute experience I was happy not to throw up. :-)
Ronzoni Rigatoni
@ethanc: Quite simply, as I became more experienced in matters of sex (Waaay back in the old days), I very long ago decided that it was not a spectator sport. Disgusting to watch, but great to do. Hetero or gay, I kinda think it’s the same for most folx.
Keith G
@NickT:
I understand. That’s the way he was raised and taught for many years
Many years ago, it was not socially wrong to be labelled a racist, in fact it was more wrong to not be one. Those were the social norms.
Now, we are witnessing another transition in social norms. when will the lines be redrawn separating acceptable ickyness and unacceptable bias?
Mnemosyne
This is starting to sound like the argument that lesbians “hate men” because they don’t want to have sex with men, and often find the whole idea disgusting.
If Cole is unacceptably biased against gay men because he finds the idea of gay sex gross, does that mean that lesbians really are “man haters” if they find the idea of hetero sex gross?
Keith G
@NickT:
I understand. That’s the way he was raised and taught for many years.
Similarly, many years ago, it was not socially wrong to be labelled a racist, in fact it was more wrong to not be one. Those were the social norms.
Now, we are witnessing another transition in social norms. When will the separation between acceptable ickyness and unacceptable bias be changed, if ever? Is it right to tell someone like Cole to just get the fuck over it or is he allowed to progress at his own pace?
Personally, I do not care how Cole or others feel, I was just curious if there were two standards for these two changes of very important social norms. And if there were, is that okay?
Sasha
Tolerance is the accepting the something that you personally do not agree or are uncomfortable with. Ergo, you are tolerant.
Sasha
Tolerance is the accepting the something that you personally do not agree or are uncomfortable with. Ergo, you are tolerant.
James Hare
@mclaren: And you’re doing an excellent job being judgmental about other people!
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
This is starting to sound like the argument that lesbians “hate men” because they don’t want to have sex with men, and often find the whole idea disgusting.
If Cole is unacceptably biased against gay men because he finds the idea of gay sex gross, does that mean that lesbians really are “man haters” if they find the idea of hetero sex gross?
Darkrose
@rikyrah: /raises hand
Though generally I prefer reading it or writing it to watching it.
Darkrose
@rikyrah: /raises hand
Though generally I prefer reading or writing gay male sex to watching it.
Darkrose
@rikyrah:
/raises hand
Though I generally prefer reading or writing gay male sex to watching it, because I think boyparts are funny-looking.
Rob
That’s okay, I always want to fast forward during the girl on girl scenes on TV too.
taylormattd
@John Cole: I’ll never understand why you don’t ban these firebagging psychopaths.
karen
@Anoniminous:
Thanks! Is Gravenstone a pen-name or a last name? It doesn’t sound familiar.
karen
@NickT:
Thank you! I’m in the “reading the editor’s changes” phase and it’s been…educational.
LongHairedWeirdo
Re: not liking gay sex, here’s the thing, in my opinion (for the record, I’m straight):
No one says you have to like it (but please don’t assume that gay male sex = anal sex only), but why bring it up?
Seriously, if it bugs you, why do you feel you have to share it?
Okay, you shared it this time, specifically to ask a question, so that was cool. It’s like, if I told a Catholic friend “Listen: I find the notion of transubstantiation *really* weird – do you think that makes me anti-Catholic?” that’s kind-of okay.
But if I brought it up under any other circumstances, I’d be deliberately bringing up something negative about something that’s Absolutely None Of My Fucking Business.
(Okay, to be fair, there are rare circumstances where it’s some of my business – if a Catholic was proselytizing to me, for example.)
It’s rude, and more importantly, you know that it’s part of homophobia, heterosexism, and contributes to discrimination (and even violence) against gay men.
There are lots of sex practices that may or may not make me feel a bit sick, but I don’t talk about them in public unless it’s specifically asked about (and then I’m careful to note “your kink is okay, it’s just not my kink” so long as it only involves consenting partners of appropriate ages), because there’s no point to it, all it can do is make some folks feel bad.
So, *feeling* a bit weird (or a lot weird) about gay sex is fine. But you really shouldn’t talk about it, IMHO, except in rare circumstances.
Death Panel Truck
@300baud:
Um, no. And furthermore, hell no. Unlike the other boys I went to school with, I never once thought kissing was gross. I was kissing girls on the playground in first grade. I knew I was a raging het when I was five. Middle school girls, high school girls and college-age girls were a major turn-on for me, ’cause they had boobies. ;) The lifeguards at the local pool were high-school and college-age, and they drove me to distraction.
Stop generalizing. It makes you look foolish.
(Late to the party, but I always am. Unlike most of you, I don’t have a lot of time on my hands.)
PNW_WarriorWoman
This is a worthy question for you to explore, deeply. I hope we hear back from you about what you discovered about yourself.
Sondra
I think you are so used to seeing heterosexual love making that this new approach to homosexual loving is rather shocking to you. I still feel that way when I see hetero scenes that are, to me at least, showing way more than I want to see. The recent episode on GOT is a case in point: at least I didn’t have to see the leach actually placed on his penis!
wmd
@eemom:
Waterless urinals started to show up at my workplace in California in 2006 – there’s a deodorizing cartridge in them that gets changed periodically. Normal urinals use a lot less water than a toilet/WC, and don’t need to be flushed every time to avoid offensive odors. A half gallon flush daily or after 5-10 uses is probably enough to keep that state park smell at bay.
Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.)
This is something I’ve wondered about. I have to say, I find the idea of trans-gendered people makes me feel awkward. I don’t know any, and if I ever met anybody I knew was trans-gendered, I’d do all I could to keep that from showing, but it makes me feel weird. I know, though, that that’s my problem, not theirs, and it’s up to me not to let my weird feelings show. I kind of feel the same way about gay sex. The thought of it turns me off. But, again, that’s my problem. I know gay people, and I’d never say anything about it to them. It’s up to me to deal with these reactions without making others feel awkward or bad in any way.
poptaracus
Im glad you turned on the a/c. The heat has addled your brain
Matmos
@swbarnes2: Ditto on “what you do”. Just wanted to add that I thought it was funny that JC dissed the church in the same post that he then goes on to incriminate himself in re: sin of intent — or whatever the technical term is — wherein you don’t have to actually do anything, you just have “impure thoughts” or whatever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEyJ0XZoKSU
Matmos
@Matmos: By “incriminate himself in” I meant “recriminate himself for”. Sort of thing.