Is this excessive force?
If you were a resident of this neighborhood would this make you feel protected or terrorized? This video filmed on May 13 in a Harlem subway station in New York. A man was tackled by the NYPD, then joined by several more police officers, then one more, and then a few more still until he is then surrounded by dozens of police officers. I’ve talked about the #BlackRule, but maybe the discussion we need to have here is not how to move in a way that appeases every impulse of police officers, but what kind of training are these officers receiving that lead to instances like this, Tremaine McMillian and countless others that have suffered violence at the hands of law enforcement. I think its safe to say that the fear Black people feel towards the police isn’t over exaggerated.
Today on #TWiBRadio, we discuss the nature of “appropriate” police force, shady professors and their questionable “research” and the criminalization of marijuana.
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pokeyblow
My black friends are sober, thoughtful people, not prone to exaggeration. Successful professionals.
And they uniformly confirm repeated bad experiences with the police.
I usually bitch about Obama, but I really hate when teabaggers throw out either the “I thought Obama being president was going to end racism” or the “Obama is president, so racism isn’t a problem any longer” lines of bullshit.
I think Obama deserves a lot of grief for a lot of things, but that nonsense is not among them.
quannlace
““Obama is president, so racism isn’t a problem any longer”
**********
Just drink in some of the reactions to that Cheerios commercial.
Ted & Hellen
So could you remind us again what the problem is in this video?
The detained gentleman is clearly resisting arrest from the very beginning of the video, and continues to do so…is there some exact number of cops that are allowed to respond to the subsequent calls for assistance?
I didn’t see any beating, tazing, or even verbal abuse? What’s the prob again?
I loathe overzealous cops, but making shit up out of non-incidents like this is just stupid.
eric
Is this a question primarily about race? i am not black so i cant answer this, but how often is the targeting done by black officers and what is the response from the black community at large to that?
Steeplejack
@Elon James:
Something funky about the video at the top. If a reader has Adblock engaged it doesn’t show up. So be prepared for complaints.
ETA: This is unusual for videos here. The video in your previous post showed up fine.
Edmund dantes
I’ve seen it happen first hand. Bunch of college students doing a scavenger hunt around NYC in late summer of 2000. There were 6 of us running through a subway station to catch a train. We were sort in separate groups of two due to different speeds of running. Guess which one of us got grabbed by a pair of cops an thrown up against a wall because it wa suspicious? It wasn’t me the white guy or the girls.
aimai
@pokeyblow: Mighty white of you.
aimai
I guess the video needs moar blackness or something for some of our commenters. Maybe they’d get it if you put up the video of the 14 year old boy and his puppy being attacked, or the other video out today of the young woman who is punched and dragged to a cell, with her tooth broken, because two police officers just felt like it.
After a few hundred years of this crap are we really going to be lectured to by the commenters here about how maybe this time its totally innocent, or rational, or black cops do it too so its somehow ok?
Davebo
Gotta go with Ted & Helen here. Didn’t look excessive at all. A simple case of two cops trying to subdue a person (for whatever reason) who resists and back up is called in.
This is brutality.
http://newsone.com/2530014/keyarika-shea-diggles-jasper-texas/
And it takes a lot to get two cops fired in Jasper TX.
eric
@aimai: i hope that is not directed at my comment. I have posted here for quite some time and I dont believe that I have ever suggested now or ever that claims of specific and institutional racism are fiction, exaggerated, or otherwise embellished. My question relates to how black victims of excessive force view the force when the cop is black. And then how does the black community writ large see the incident when a black officer is involved.
Quaker in a Basement
That video is like going to the circus–you think that’s all of ’em but then another one jumps out.
pokeyblow
@aimai: What a sad, tiny world you occupy. This is pretty much all you’ve got, isn’t it?
Don’t worry. The situation won’t improve, but it also won’t last forever.
KG
I’d like to know why they had him on the ground in the first place. He doesn’t look like the type that would throwing punches or anything else stupid in this situation. I know that if I were taken down for no apparent reason, I’d probably fight back or at least react like this guy reacts. So some additional context would be helpful.
I know a lot of cops, and most of them are good, decent people. But they also deal with a lot of bad stuff (some of which means their life is in danger) so that warps their point of view about the world, I think. Nor does it help that we turned a lot of police departments into paramilitary entities in the last decade because of our overreaction to 9/11.
pokeyblow
@eric: I state the opposite very clearly. This aimai person seems to have adequacy and self-esteem issues. I don’t recommend being concerned.
MoeLarryAndJesus
After a certain point the cops aren’t piling around in order to help with the restraint or the arrest.
They’re crowding around to hide what’s going on in the center of the pile from the onlookers who are taping the incident.
This will happen more and more as a response by cops to now-ubiquitous cell cameras.
rikyrah
I know everytime one of these videos shows up, White folks peep up..
‘this happens to us too’…
then put the videos out there…
Police…
Black victim being abused…
the song is as long as the history of America.
Raven
” He doesn’t look like the type ”
Say the fuck what?
ChrisNYC
I hate to agree with T&H but I do. Just this once. I watched it (on a different site) and I don’t get how this could be excessive force. Three cops engaged, the guy didn’t want to be handcuffed. The first two couldn’t do the handcuffing (evidenced by their failure) so the third did.
It seems like the thesis is excessive force means other cops standing there? That’s a hard sell. On training, isn’t this what they’re trained to do — they handcuffed him without (apparently) hurting him. Also, it seems like there’s something going on with something the guy’s got in his hands. One of the first two cops is repeatedly saying something like, “let the ___ and give me your hand.” Something drops out at one point right before they get the handcuffs on?
Apparently 26 cops appear. When are 26 cops in one subway station? Something must have happened aforehand to have that occur.
Also, tackle? Tackle to me means jumping at someone and bringing them down. Didn’t happen here, unless you’re talking about before the video starts.
I’m with you that excessive force is a problem but this video is not so persuasive on it.
Raven
@aimai: So the post title is in the form of a question and when someone offer their opinion they are lecturing?
Raven
Is this excessive force?
If you think it is then you’ve never had your ass whipped.
pokeyblow
@Raven: I’m an ass for being sympathetic to black-people’s claims of police mistreatment, others are asses for questioning this incident.
That’s what aimai added.
Chyron HR
In B4 Ted & Hellen whitesplains to us that this guy’s text messages were…
Oops, wasn’t fast enough this time!
Rupert
You’re on your knees, with two cops on your back, your right arm is the only thing stopping your face slamming into the concrete and they’re telling you to put it behind your back? I think the police are getting better at making impossible to *not* resist arrest.
maya
Leave it to a niClang! to steal more cops than he can carry.
WereBear
There is no way any 14 year old boy, with or without puppy, can express a threat to even ONE armed police officer.
PurpleGirl
@KG: The militarization of police forces began well before September 11th. Part of it is the war on (some) drugs and (some) users; part of it is the federal money that began flowing to states and cities during the Clinton years; and part of it is the forfeiture provisions of various laws which allow police forces to keep drug money and spend it on equipment and other provisions allowing governments to keep all kinds of other property under many situations.
Older
I don’t see a guy resisting arrest, I see a guy trying to resist having his face slammed into a wall.
eric
@PurpleGirl: part of it is the realization that lower crime rates get you reelected while fears of “overpolicing” and rights violations fall on deaf ears because those ears do not belong to “those people” and they think they have nothing to fear.
YellowJournalism
It looked like Cops 1 & 2 were handling the situation calmly. Then Cops 3 & 4 come in and handle the guy like he’s a tackling dummy. After that, the situation just gets ridiculous as the rest o the entire police force runs in. I almost expected this to be a set-up for a flash mob doing a dance to “Bad Boys.”
Felanius Kootea
Do we really need 25 cops to handle one unarmed citizen’s arrest?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
This would be easier to call if we had the first half of this. It know it sounds Broderish to me but there is one cop telling the suspect to calm down and the other screaming at him, at the same time the suspect is resisting being handcuffed while scream “I an’t fighting you” so erm so it looks like both side aren’t looking good here.
boss bitch
The suspect should have stopped resisting. Only 2 cops should have been needed here. Why 4 needed back up is beyond me. I live in Brooklyn and often see a shit ton of cops together by bus and train stops. I don’t know if they are coming from training or something but it has become normal to see that many together.
I can’t tell you why they thought it was a good idea to come downstairs. Talk about tone deaf.
ChrisNYC
@boss bitch: I ride the C everyday from Brooklyn to Manhattan and back. Normal to see 26 cops together in a subway station or at a bus stop? I’ve never seen that since I moved here in 92. Even at 34th st or 42nd. or Grand Army or Broadway Junction.
michelle
Gee, I don’t know.
Here in Houston, it looks like a crowd of cops are going to get away with kicking a teenager in the head after they handcuffed him.
I’m sure there’s no reason for the guy to worry about getting his head bashed into a wall or the concrete floor. No reason at all.
aimai
@pokeyblow: Oh, pokey, never change.
Carl Nyberg
@Rupert:
This seems like what is happening.
pokeyblow
@aimai: Why would I? This works great.
elmo
Such a shame, but it keeps happening – 90% of cops giving the other 10% a bad name. Tsk.
Paul W.
@Ted & Hellen: Being a resident of NYC, when the guy is kicking off of walls with 3 guys trying to handcuff him and detain him then he is kind of asking for reinforcements to come in. The cops are actually not jack-knifing him, hitting him, or trying to beat him into resistance. They are simply trying to handcuff him.
As a white guy who has been arrested in by FIVE cops when it was just me and I was completely going along with their requests this doesn’t seem that bad at all. Yeah, there’s a lot of cops here but this looks like a 14th street station (a major subway line, lots of cops nearby), so none of this is that bad. I also abhor police abuse of power, but this seems to be reasonable if a little overzealous in terms of pure body count.
lojasmo
I saw nothing that constituted excessive force.
When the cops take you down, you go limp. If you resist, you get hurt. I think he got off pretty easy.
tsquared2001
@aimai: I might have gone with ofay motherfucker, but yours was good too.
brendanyc
@Ted & Hellen: I think the video does not show police brutality, but ineptness.
And, it most eloquently makes the case that we have too many police officers in nyc with too little real work to do. Or, i should say, they would rather not do, or are not instructed and trained to do, real work like protect us, so they do whatever is handy.
brendanyc
@Ted & Hellen: I think the video does not show police brutality, but ineptness.
And, it most eloquently makes the case that we have too many police officers in nyc with too little real work to do. Or, i should say, they would rather not do, or are not instructed and trained to do, real work like protect us, so they do whatever is handy.
ranchandsyrup
Gotta hit those quotas in the NYPD
pokeyblow
@tsquared2001: You might have indeed.
And, had you, it would have been so impactful!
I can’t imagine being a mover like you, bestriding the Earth like a colossus (when you’re not begging for crumbs of attention from so sorry a source as aimai).
boss bitch
@ChrisNYC:
I take the B35 to the 2,5 and I swear to you, whether I am coming or going, I have seen this many cops standing around at the bus or train. I am tempted to ask what’s the deal but I don’t. And it’s not like they are to quell a riot or something.
the area is East Flatbush
Cacti
Remember, these are the people we’re supposed to trust not to misuse a database of people’s DNA.
feebog
I am going to weigh in here because I deal with use of force cases involving the LA County Sheriff’s Department. I did not see any excessive use of force in the video. I really don’t understand why it would take more than four officers to control the suspect and handcuff him, but that is a separate question. The suspect was clearly resisting the handcuffing. He was not struck by any officer with a baton, nor was he tazered. I have seen several videos where excessive use of force to restrain a suspect was used, this doesn’t come close.
Gian
@rikyrah:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1ljYNgLnpxM
(hard to see the video) harder to look at the pictures of what was left of Mr. Thomas after the incident before he died in the hospital.
there was another guy gunned down by long beach police while sitting in a chair, drunk and playing with a garden hose nozzle
http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/post/douglas-zerby/
SmallAxe
First time I’ve agreed with Ted & Hellen and I hate that I have to but that guy is resisting arrest right from the very jump of that video. Black, white or purple you resist arrest and you are going to get messed with deservedly in my opinion. There was no tasing, or hard restraint in the beginning of the video that I saw either, he tried to run up the wall Bo Jackson style wtf was that. Now the Jasper TX video, that was definitely excessive force, this one was only excessive cops in the clown car style they all came running in the end but when 3 of them couldn’t handle the guy you could see the other cops call for more back up which causes the cop clown car. Don’t resist arrest, fight your battle in court if you were wrongly arrested that is just dumb.
cvstoner
The training they are getting can be summed up as “us vs. them.”
I’ve heard that the big difference between the rich and the poor with respect to the police is that the rich actually believe that the police work for them, while the poor know they don’t (work for them).
Rex Everything
BINGO. They’re being trained for a fucking war on people. We really need to do something about this, as a society; we need to smack this shit down hard.
Rex Everything
btw, “resisting arrest”? Fuck that shit. Cops who are using their powers, lawful or not, to harass people — as is clearly happening here — absolutely should be resisted. And if the disproportion of the response doesn’t alarm you then you’re sleeping. An army of cops deployable in Harlem, at the drop of a hat, for incidents like this? I’m sorry but if you don’t see the problem here, then you’re a major, in some ways THE major, part of it.
Oh, and I love this:
They tried to slam him into the fucking wall, you idiot. With his hands clamped behind his back! He put his foot against the wall because it was either that or his face.
Paul in KY
@Quaker in a Basement: Sad to say, I did laugh at your comment. I think the cops must get extra pay for being in one of these or being close to the incident.
Or they just like beating up homeless mental cases.
Paul in KY
@maya: That is not right!
Al
Maybe there would be less real crime if they would, you know, spread out more?
I’m a 54 year old white guy in Rural Indiana with a sibling cop whom I love dearly, and I have been mistreated and shaken down enough times that I basically treat them like coming across a wild animal; freeze, flight, fight, or submit. From my discussions with them it does go back to their training – it’s no longer serve and protect, it’s self-protection and maintenance of order on behalf of their betters.
Pococurante
What happened leading up to where the film starts? That’s part of the story as well.
Brutusettu
: @SmallAxe:
Or perhaps strangers have his arms pinned back, moving him toward a wall at a decent speed, and the guy goes “Bo Jackson” so his face doesn’t smack into a wall.
The recording started late. We don’t know if the cops tried a similar thing to start out.
BobS
I saw some resistance when the guy pushed off the wall with his foot and subsequently stiffened up- after that, him and cops 1&2 seemed to have gotten it under control. It became excessive force when cops 3 & 4 arrived and took the guy down without assessing what was happening- in fact, they should have been able to ascertain the situation was under control as they approached.
It became a little ridiculous with the arrival of cops 5&10&15&20. I also got a kick out of the dumbass who walked around the corner eating chips who didn’t steer himself wide of the situation.
th
Please people. I have seen a black youth handcuffed and kicked in the head right out the window on the sidewalk in front of my house in a nice enough middle class neighborhood in South Minneapolis. This happens ALL THE TIME.
tones
FTP!