Ed Kilgore, looking for the lighter side, links to a National Review report on a 2008 book by E.W. Jackson, now running for lieutenant governor in Virginia on the GOP ticket:
“We live in the most interesting times in human history. These are the days spoken of in Scripture, the days of fulfillment. This is therefore an era of unprecedented spiritual activity on both sides as the conflict races to a head. Those who are in Christ are on the winning side. Part of what must happen during this period of great harvest for the kingdom of God is a massive wealth transfer. It is not going to happen by theft or governmental policy. It is going to happen supernaturally. Those invested in God’s market are going to reap a windfall. Make up your mind now to buy in.”
Insert your own joke here, about vampire squid banksters and the Repubs who worship them…
Maude
Maybe he should run for Pope.
pokeyblow
Markets are Gods, my friend.
NickT
Someone’s in for a shock at the Pearly Gates when he discovers he’s been re-baptized by the Mormons and has a first class ticket for the hell-fire scenic attraction.
Corner Stone
I…uh…want to buy in?
elmo
Remind me how this religion works. The words in red letters are optional, right? Or are they actually forbidden?
? Martin
It would be convenient if the prosperity gospel folks would get the GOP backing and just come right out and start cheering on the bankers sucking the nation dry.
MomSense
I’m well versed in the bible and I don’t recall Jesus ever talking about investing in God’s market.
I seriously wonder with these types. What version of the bible are they reading? Same goes for the US Constitution. I don’t think it says what they think it says.
Cacti
I blame Obama.
Burnspbesq
If the people of Virginia can’t see through this guy, they deserve him.
piratedan
I suppose it’s easy to see the correlation if your God is Mammon
Spaghetti Lee
Was there not a point in history where people like this would be limited to preaching on street-corners and spamming political forums? Or, at least, not getting nominated for Lieutenant governor? Can we go back to that point? I think I’d like it there.
danielx
Hastur is currently taking applications in conference room 666…
James E Powell
What can anyone say to these Greedy Jesus people? If it weren’t for the fact that they have a firm grip on the government, they would be hilarious.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Burnspbesq: I gather the polls have started to break a bit in McAuliffe’s direction since this guy came on the scene (up by six in the TMP average). Kind of amazing that Cuccinelli was so popular in a state Obama won twice. I IRC at the height of the transvaginal furor, McDonnell’s numbers were pretty steady around %55
mai naem
I read that Bristol and Willow Palin are doing a “wife” swap thing with Joan and Melinda Rivers. I know I should just be ignoring all things Palin but seriously, who wants to watch this crap? I guess it might be interesting when Joan finds out she can’t find a top flight plastic surgeon in Uh-las-kah.
FlyingToaster
When is the GOP going to stop being a recursive self-parody?
Jeebus. I’d call Poe, but this jackass is for real. He makes our Massholes look like pikers.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
It really is just Calvinism isn’t it? Or maybe Calvinball, I get mixed up sometimes.
Feebog
Mmmmm, Mammon@piratedan:
scav
The elect are the 0.1%.
Foregone Conclusion
Should be a good question for a press conference: “Rev. Jackson, do you still consider the riding forth of the Four Horsemen, the arrival of the Whore of Babylon and the Antichrist, the descent of the New Jerusalem, and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to be imminent?”
JaneE
But – that wealth is not earthly wealth. And you “buy in” by giving your earthly wealth to the poor. Somehow I don’t think that was what Jackson had in mind when he wrote that.
Cacti
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I hope Terry Mac is smart enough to stand back and not step on his own d*ck while this guy runs for mayor of crazy town.
NickT
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason:
More like Osteen balls.
Foregone Conclusion
Actually, constructing a wingnut eschatology is pretty easy:
Four Horsemen = the liberal bloc on the Supreme Court
Whore of Babylon = Hillary Clinton
Antichrist = Obama (obvs)
piratedan
@Foregone Conclusion: only a heathen would ask a question like that, a True Believer and Man of God already KNOWS!
Mike E
OT and a shout-out to the formidable hive mind of B-J: my 17 yr old daughter was fired from her p/t daycare position at a fitness chain, after calling in sick for her shift; she threw up, and thought it best not to be around young children. 1st time missing a shift. Since last summer. Perfect attendance, including filling in for other coworkers, and no write ups.
She had been honest about working for them after her graduation this week (inshallah), and was counting on the income through at least the middle of July… needless to say, this was a harsh blow. They told her to come in on Monday and “fill out paperwork”. I’ll be there with her. Any advice?
Hal
@Mike E:
They fired her and now want her to fill out paperwork? Why bother?
Spaghetti Lee
@Mike E:
Jesus, manager-level people can be such petty tyrant dickheads. In what sane world is the manager in the right there?
Bill Arnold
Can somebody explain this please? Have read it several times and still have no clue. (I vaguely know about prosperity gospel.) How do I take advantage of this investment opportunity? (Obviously betting against believers won’t work because the opportunity is supernatural. :-)
Yatsuno
@Mike E: I believe you live in North Carolina yes?
mai naem
@Mike E: have her file for unemployment. On the other hand, I wouldn’t think it would be hard to find another job in childcare.
Mike E
@Hal: That was my immediate reaction, but I will use the opening to go in and get to the bottom of her getting terminated. She ain’t signing shit.
catclub
@? Martin: Is it complicated when those bankers are jewish?
Forum Transmitted Disease
E.W. Jackson is nothing more than a troll. Not DougJ caliber but pretty good.
That video of his where’s he’s talking about Starbucks is priceless, and should be all the clue anyone needs that he’s not taking this seriously.
catclub
@JaneE: “And you “buy in” by giving your earthly wealth to the poor.”
Or to Bishop Jackson, yes?
Redshirt
@scav: You be jokin’, but I think you have it. Lots of Christian sects thinks lots of other Christians aren’t getting into Heaven either. And based on Calvinist theology, it’s predestined. Your acts mean squat.
So, obviously, the 1% are the Elected – why else would they be blessed with such riches?
And obviously, the poors are not. Else they wouldn’t be poor, right?
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike E: Unfortunately, many states have employment at will and there isn’t much you can do about it. Any chance she/you can talk someone into rethinking it?
@mai naem: Filing for unemployment isn’t a bad idea.
Mike E
@Yatsuno: Yes, NC.
@mai naem: that advice was given by my coworker too. She certainly can experience the exquisite sensation I felt when smashing my head against numerous doors! I told her, after mentioning how proud of her I am, “Welcome to the world of work”.
NickT
Since today is cyber-paranoia day among the broad masses, just a quick reminder of how unsafe all your passwords are:
http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/05/how-crackers-make-minced-meat-out-of-your-passwords/
Redshirt
Jesus is Lord, and Cramer is his Prophet.
BUY-BUY-BUY!
Chyron HR
@Spaghetti Lee:
Oh, you Aneesh Choprabots never quit. Every true progressive knows there’s no REAL difference between the two candidates.
Chris
@MomSense:
I do, however, remember him beating the shit out of people who treated religion as a profit center. Wonder what he’d have said if he could see the televangelists of the last thirty years.
Comrade Dread
“Lay up not for yourselves treasures on Earth where moth and rust corrupt and thieves may steal, but lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven…”
The treasure in heaven spoken of is not gold or silver. St. John’s thoughts of heaven see gold as being so worthless that it’s used as pavement. The treasures of heaven are the good deeds of charity and justice that you have done in this life that carry over with you in the form of the people whose lives you have touched and made better.
All that to say that if you as a Christian are looking for wealth, power, and the possessions that such can bring, then you’re sort of missing the point of Christianity.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chyron HR: Any relation to Deepak?
Mike E
@Omnes Omnibus: I hate being paranoid about this move, but it seems like a craven move to get somebody in there sooner, who’s not college bound or hasn’t graduated HS yet.
JaneE
@catclub: Somehow I doubt that he would qualify as poor. He is a Republican after all.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike E: It probably is. In my current job, I get to see employers being assholes quite often – just because they can.*
*In the interest of fairness, I also see employees doing dumbass shit that should get them fired.
Tokyokie
I don’t know whether anything supernatural was involved, but Willard Romney magically made jobs disappear and vast wealth appear in his offshore accounts.
michelle
Prosperity gospel. It’s been out there for a while. Oprah even got into it back in the day.
? Martin
@NickT: I did that at work as part of a security course. Students had built an online software tool that hashed the student’s credentials and claimed that the 256 bit encryption meant that it was secure. The credential space was sufficiently constrained in size that a day after I got ahold of the encrypted data I had brute forced every possible credential and could easily map it back to the encrypted data and decipher it. Went into class and called out a student name and read them back some of their data.
Large random passwords – 16 characters or more. I usually do 24 or more. Use 1Password or something similar.
Mike E
@Omnes Omnibus: I just don’t know. I want them to provide cause, a reason, anything. This job was going to be a strong letter of recommendation for her to use when she gets to college and finds p/t employment while at school. Shitty deal.
TOP123
Happened to see a touch of FOX just now. Stossel(?) I think, that guy with the moustache who looks like he should be selling something. Starts talking about how the big, real scandal (i.e., above, beyond, behind whatever the latest is they’re pitching) is how the government employs some 20 something million people–he mentions the post office, IRS, etc, whatever–and then says, and they’re all empowered “to use force.”
Um, what?!? The mailman?
PurpleGirl
The young lady is probably not eligible for unemployment if she was a part time employee. She probably either didn’t make enough money or work enough hours to be eligible.
Tokyokie
@TOP123: He’s probably referring to contract specialists with the General Services Administration.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@TOP123: didn’t you know? Federal employees all have a James Bond-like “license to kill”.
Forum Transmitted Disease
It would be hard to pervert Christ’s message any more than the prosperity gospel lunatics have, but I’m sure the Mammon worshipers using the GOP as their current avenue to power are going to give it a shot.
Matt McIrvin
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Virginia’s politics are deeply divided. There’s a coalition of mostly Northern Virginians and black voters that votes very Democratic, and a more rural, older, whiter electorate that votes extremely Republican and is generally nuts. And they’re closely balanced in the state such that the turnout differences between presidential and off-year elections can swing the balance one way or the other.
I get the impression that North Carolina is similar, except that there the ultraconservative contingent more definitely has the upper hand at the moment.
Ruckus
@Mike E:
Well there is the totally wrong way to go about it. I think you know how I mean. The long term prospects are bad and well even the short term prospects aren’t good for anyone involved or even just in the area. But if you are real mad and she is real mad and you have no morals whatsoever… And that way should be respected in NC, given the political color of the state.
On the other hand you could be an adult about it, find out why they feel this is the way to go. IANAL but I’d have to ask why is there something for her to sign? I wouldn’t sign anything in this instance without having a lawyer see it as it sounds like they want her to sign away her right to unemployment and possibly to sue them for any reason. I’ll bet there is no reason for her to sign anything, although they may tell her she can’t get her last check till she signs. At that point I’d say a lawyer is imperative.
gogol's wife
@mai naem:
I don’t get it — who’s the wife in this scenario? This sounds very sick.
Mike E
@PurpleGirl: Well, shit. Then plan B: have her mom, a state employee, file a grievance with NC over wrongful termination… I really don’t know how best to counter this bs move.
cyntax
@? Martin:
I think the lesson from that is something along these lines:
Redshirt
When I was younger, reading Sci-Fi, reading history, learning about science, I imagined a future where reason and logic was ever more prominent in our world, with bold exploration of space and such, and an erasing of national borders, a disappearance of racism, and class, and religion, and people dying in the street.
Instead, we’ve got a Revival. A crazy Revival. WTF?!
Mike E
@Ruckus: That’s certainly motivating me to go with her to the fitness chain…curiosity.
A Ghost To Most
I’ve never gotten an answer to this, much less a valid answer. Why don’t non-crazy Christians stand up to the bugfuck crazy ones? They just, to all appearances, let the insane book beaters run roughshod on everybody else, including themselves. Are they secretly rooting for the crazies, or are they afraid ?
Wally Ballou
“We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Jackson. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Jackson. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Jackson, to see that perfect world in which there’s no war or famine, oppression or brutality. One vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock. All necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused. And I have chosen you, Mr. Jackson, to preach this evangel.”
Spaghetti Lee
@TOP123:
Libertarians of the Stossel-variety are obsessed with ‘force’ the way the Victorians were obsessed with status-who has it, who doesn’t have it, how are they using it, how should they use it, etc. They follow an as-yet-unmapped logical path that says, because the government is the only entity that can detain you and charge you with a crime (true enough, but give it a few years) that means all the mailmen, DMV workers, and OSHA inspectors of the world could cold-cock you and you couldn’t do a thing about it.
cyntax
@Redshirt:
Too much Asimov, not enough Phillip K. Dick.
But yeah, I was imagining that too.
Spaghetti Lee
@cyntax:
Pop quiz, which is the most accurate predictor of the 21st century zeitgeist; Aldous Huxley, Margaret Atwood, or Wall-E?
Ruckus
@Mike E:
Wanted to add a bit to my comment.
I have over my lifetime hired and fired a number of people. I have been hired and have quit very few jobs and been fired once. I had to sign paperwork at one job because of COBRA. The paperwork showed that I had received all the notices and read them concerning my rights about COBRA. But that is it. Never had to have anyone sign anything, never had to sign anything else. I’m doubting your 17 yr old daughter had health care insurance from a part time job so I don’t see how that would apply.
Chris
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
No kidding.
In a way, I understand the “how can you call yourselves Christian?” revulsion they feel when they look at pro-gay, pro-choice churches. It’s exactly the way I feel when I see them preaching Atlas Shrugged and 21st century America Uber Alles nationalism from the pulpit and thinking that if they just punctuate it all with the word “Jesus” enough times, that’ll somehow make them Christian.
Spaghetti Lee
@A Ghost To Most:
I’d wager the same answer for any “why doesn’t (X) stand up to the crazy (X)?” They’re not babysitters and they’ve got their own lives to live. Right-wingers use that question all the time for Muslims and it drives me nuts.
Omnes Omnibus
@A Ghost To Most: The non-crazies don’t make for good TV.
cyntax
@Spaghetti Lee:
Trick question: all three in depressingly different ways.
But at this point, I think Wall-E actually has the lockdown on how things will end up.
Ruckus
@A Ghost To Most:
I think that it must be pretty hard to stand up and tell someone that the way they practice religion is all wrong, if you believe in a similar named religion. If you are a christian, how do you tell another christian that their religion is full of shit and still be able to look yourself in the mirror?
Yatsuno
@Spaghetti Lee: Numbers 2 & 3.
Redshirt
@Spaghetti Lee: I just read the triptych of dystopia novels: 1984, Handmaiden’s Tale, Brave New World. I’ve seen Wall-E. So let me conclusively answer:
Little bit of each! Literally. We have of course the overwhelming monitoring society developing before our eyes, from 1984, and the use of Doublespeak in spades. We have the drugs, booze, sport and class of Brave New World. We have the creeping religious theocracy just waiting for a convenient disaster/tragedy to take over, a la Handmaid’s Tale.
And obviously the Roomba with cats = Wall-E.
Citizen Alan
@mai naem:
Chris
@Matt McIrvin:
Then there’s the specific Northern Virginia Republicans, easily the political demographic I hate most in the country – in a nutshell, white upper middle class people who owe everything in their life to the tax dollars of the defense industry. It’s a perfect storm of Old Southern Gentry wannabes (the feel of the place rubs off on them, I guess), glibertarians-on-welfare, and REMFs who’ve never been out in the field in their lives but love the badass-by-association cred of saying that they work for/with the military.
Mike E
@Ruckus: She’s covered under her mom’s health plan. I suspect corporate weaselry.
A Ghost To Most
Whenever I hear about Prosperity Gospel, I remember the 70s and Reverend Ike, and his ‘Power of Green’. At least he was honest and open about bilking his flock; he told them he was keeping the money for himself. Joel Osteen must have watched him too.
Chris
@Wally Ballou:
I have no idea where that’s from, but it kinda reminds me of Number Two’s speech to Doctor Evil at the end of the first movie…
JoyfulA
Is the fitness chain Curves, whose profits support just-say-no sex education in Texas?
RepubAnon
No, no – money is the root of all evil, you see, so it’s important during the end days to transfer all your remaining wealth to the 0.1%. These brave, self-sacrificing souls are willing to suffer the fires of hell throughout eternity by reluctantly accepting all your worldly goods. Transferring all the wealth from the rest of us to the 0.1% assures us of heaven, you see, and the brief enjoyment of earthly pleasures undoubtedly tastes like ashes in their mouths as they travel from one multi-million dollar villa to another on their megayachts, helicopters and private jets.
To see whether you qualify for the privilege of sending all your wealth to the 0.1%, see whether you can fill in the missing words in these quotes from great philosophers:
“A _____ and his money are soon ___________. (PT Barnum)
“Never give a _______ an even ___________. (WC Fields)
If your mind is pure, you won’t know the answers – and can thus qualify for this chance to assure yourself of heaven by transferring your remaining wealth to the 0.1%.
burnspbesq
@efgoldman:
Could be worse. They could end up at J.E.B. Stuart.
Spaghetti Lee
@A Ghost To Most:
And to add, as someone who still does go to church occasionally, at least at my church, a sermon of “Now go and fight the fundamentalists!” would be greeted pretty coolly. Not so much out of cowardice as out of a general sentiment of “Jeez, I come here to ignore political bullshit and now you’re dragging it back in?”
And my congregation is pretty liberal, as such things go. A gay guy I went to high school with has been the piano player and a singer since 2005 or so and no one really cared.
Redshirt
@cyntax:
I’ve read plenty of PKD. Not the biggest fan – he’s an incredible ideas guy. Maybe the best ever. But not the best writer, and I find all his books lacking in one way or another.
I recommend everyone read 1984 again, and The Handmaiden’s Tale, back to back. It’s quite an experience.
Ruckus
@Mike E:
I’d go with corporate weaselry. It also covers the firing in the first place.
? Martin
@A Ghost To Most: Heh. Forgotten all about Rev Ike…
Hillary Rettig
Don’t care at all about sports but this reminded me of Cole:
http://www.universalhub.com/2013/maybe-somebody-called-him-owen-pittsburgh-man-arre
Good comments, too.
PurpleGirl
@Redshirt: The crazies are better self-promoters and the media seem to only have their phone numbers. There are a good number of liberal and/or non-crazy Christian groups but they are ignored. All the mainstream denominations have their own liberal sides and there are even cross-denomination groups. But they get ignored. In NYC there is the headquarters of The National Council of Churches. The Baptists historically were very interested in social justice; note, I said Baptists, not Southern Baptists. Riverside Church, a large Baptist presence in NYC, has had very liberal and anti-war leaders.
A Ghost To Most
@Ruckus:
Don’t ask me; as a teenager looking for answers, I went to a Jehovah’s Witness meeting. Endured about 1/2 hour of that hateful lunacy, then stood up, loudly told the entire congregation they were full of shit, and walked out.
Yes, I have authority issues.
cyntax
@cyntax:
But gotta give an honorable mention to Snow Crash:
? Martin
@Chris: It’s from Network. Go watch it again. Then go watch Fox News. Make sure your firearms are locked up first.
PurpleGirl
@Mike E: Go with her to ask the exact reason for her termination; the information will be needed for a grievance complaint. Don’t let her sign anything.
Spaghetti Lee
@cyntax:
What I like about Wall-E is that, iirc, the directors and other people involved say they see it primarily as a love story, and the Brave New World-level dystopia is just the backdrop on which it happens. Well, could’ve fooled me.
Redshirt
@PurpleGirl: No doubt. But this is what scares me: Only one side is Authoritarian. And I hope we all know by now that if a true Winger got into the White House, we all might literally die in a nuclear inferno over some crazy dude’s conviction in their political God.
Mike E
@JoyfulA: Curves…negative. A local small chain.
Spaghetti Lee
@? Martin:
Yeah, Network needs to be on the Probable Dystopia List. Note that A Face In the Crowd, 20 years earlier, actually ended with the sleazeball getting caught.
cyntax
@Spaghetti Lee:
Yeah. The love story is cute and all, but the idea that we’ve filled the world with so much of our trash that we have to leave, and in leaving lose touch with essential elements of our humanity–that’s a little hard to gloss over.
Or maybe it isn’t and we’re just obsessing over the wrong things.
Mike E
@PurpleGirl: Will do, thanks.
Ruckus
@A Ghost To Most:
You got up and walked out. Many people never do that. Many people never seem to question the things they have faith in. They just accept it. Now tell those people that the thing they have faith in can be and has been subverted to something completely wrong. What do they do then? Do they ask who is right, them and their faith or the people who subverted it? Or do they rationalize it? Do they ask why there are so many religions and can they all be right or is there one true one and believe they are practicing it? Religious faith is a conundrum, one has to believe the unbelievable, and one has to believe there is only one truth, while others think the same thing. Someone is wrong. Do you think most people are capable of accepting that their faith is wrong?
? Martin
@Spaghetti Lee: Such is the occasional genius of Pixar. Their goal is to put a movie in theaters that will get both kids and adults, and have each group see a different film. The kids see a love story, the adults see a grim future based on our current trajectory.
Narcissus
This is the same argument the Puritans were making before the English Civil War. In fact this argument played a big part in dismantling pre-civil war English government.
JoyfulA
@PurpleGirl: And the networks wouldn’t even take the UCC’s cash on the barrelhead to run our “everyone is welcome here” commercials.
They certainly don’t put liberal clergy’s or churches’ names on their Rolodexes that are stuffed with fundagelicals to represent the Christian point of view.
A Ghost To Most
@Ruckus:
In my experience, very few people are even willing to entertain the idea of questioning their faith. Even hard-core atheists like me; I am unwilling at this point to even entertain the notion that gods exist (except in Neil Gaiman books).
lockout
Any Faith that is not interconnected with Nature is to be regarded with caution.
JoyfulA
@Mike E: Well, at least your daughter wasn’t contributing to the profits of the national nuts. I’m hoping she is entitled to unemployment; I was, back in 1983, when I had been working part-time.
RepubAnon
@PurpleGirl: It’s easier for the crazies that say the things the folks with the gold want to hear to get funding – because the folks with the gold want to keep hearing what those particular crazies are preaching.
JoyfulA
@Ruckus: I was taught in Sunday school, about third grade level, that we know we have the way to God. I was also taught that we don’t know how many ways to God there are, maybe hundreds or thousands or more.
A Ghost To Most
@lockout:
Any Faith that is not interconnected with Nature is to be regarded with
cautionsuspicion..Redshirt
@A Ghost To Most: Any law that goes against human nature is to be suspected.
scav
@Redshirt: That requires a rather optimistic view of human nature.
Chris
@scav:
I almost said the same thing, but the word being “suspected” (as opposed to “rejected”), I’m okay with it.
Ruckus
@JoyfulA:
I don’t actually question the many pathways idea. I do question the end of the path idea. All the many religions that I have studied say that theirs is the one true path. Some try expand on that by saying that there is one true path for each person and they will find that path through faith in a particular religion.
But logic will tell you that if there is one end of all the paths then there are many incorrect religions because all that I have studied say that their path is the best and their god is the one true god. They may imply it rather than stating it outright but it is there.
mouse tolliver
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
This is what happens when you have a Democratic candidate who never ever says anything that might excite the Democratic base. And the last Democratic candidate ran as an anti-Obama Democrat even though Obama won the state. I bet the people who came up with that strategy are still working as consultants for the party.
Chris
@Ruckus:
One thing I’ve always found interesting about Catholic doctrine is that, in its modern incarnations at least, it acknowledges the “many paths” idea at least in some form. It does maintain that Roman Catholicism is the superior Church/Faith, but allows that other people can still get to heaven. According to Vatican II, Jews and Muslims are ranked as believers in the same God, even if they don’t have quite the right idea about him. I remember reading a Vatican decree from the thirties finding that Confucian ancestor-worship wasn’t so much “worship” but closer to the Catholic practice of honoring saints or talking to your loved ones after they’d died, ergo wasn’t incompatible with Christianity. And the Pope even made a conciliatory statement towards atheists lately – http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html, which can be read as “yes, atheists can go to heaven too.”
I think the assumption that all religions are from the One True Path/All Others Are Heretics school of thought can be exaggerated.
mclaren
@Redshirt:
You didn’t read the right sci fi writers. If you’d read Heinlein, you’d have known that shortly after the year 2000, the Prophet Nehemiah Scudder overthrew the government and created a theocracy.
Heinlein called it “The Crazy Years.”
Sound familiar…?
Not to mention the “Butlerian Jihad” in Frank Herbert’s Dune, which destroyed all computers and banned digital information technology…
Chris
@mouse tolliver:
Wasn’t it Truman who said something like “give people the choice between a real Republican and a Republican-by-another-name and they’ll choose the real thing every time?”
mclaren
@Chris:
When I cite the “many worlds” interpretation of quantum mechanics and assert that all religions are true, people become irrational.
ruemara
hmmm, my camera busted. or rather, the leaf style camera shutter busted which makes the sensor for the lens fail to trip. It would be nice of the universe to allow me to have nice things multiple times in a row. Now the only camera I have will be my job’s camera, or my cell phone.This is very disappointing, not in the least because it will take some careful orchestration to get the funds for a diagnosis and then, hopefully for a repair. It was so nice to finally have my own reasonably decent camera, too.
A Ghost To Most
@Chris:
Huh, wut? As a professional heretic/infidel, this has not been at all my experience.
Spaghetti Lee
@mclaren:
Well, shit, Terry Pratchett could have told you that.
mclaren
@A Ghost To Most:
Suppose God exists? He would necessarily have to be an atheist, wouldn’t he?
Definition of an atheist: someone who believes there is no higher power in the universe. God would be omniscient, and therefore he would know absolutely and positively that there exists no higher power in the universe than himself. An atheist is also someone who believes that the world does not exist for any higher purpose or greater plan. God, if he existed, would know that he created the universe solely for his own personal reasons, which are ultimately personal and selfish, and he would therefore be absolutely certain that the universe does not exist for any higher purpose.
God would have to be an atheist.
And then of course there’s the possibility that God exists, but is insane… Harlan Ellison wrote some short stories about that one.
A Ghost To Most
@mclaren:
McLaren, I think you are an idiot. Your comment does nothing to disabuse me of that opinion.
Ruckus
@Chris:
Notice that this is after many religions are losing converts left and right. Kind of like conservatives, they have to be a little more open and accepting or risk withering away to nothing. OTOH you may be right. But all that I have studied(over 40 yrs ago) have the failings of normal humans and they like to be right. And they will rationalize almost anything to be right. Not too many years ago most of us followed our family faith if any at all. Primarily because we lived in a small circle and a church was a big part of that circle. In the last 100-150 but especially in the last 60 years many of us have ventured out into the bigger world and found friends and mates of different cultures and religions and religions and other organizations have had to take stock about this. It has changed how many organizations look at their customers/believers.
Redshirt
@mclaren: I’ve read plenty of Heinlein and too many of the Dune books. I’m well versed, brah.
That said, I’m still ultimately optimistic in humanity’s chances. Alas! There’s still some scum to burn off.
Ruckus
@ruemara:
You and I must be of the same stock. I thought that country/western song about bad luck or no luck was written about me but maybe there are more members of the group than I first thought. Are you also related to Murphy?
mclaren
@Spaghetti Lee:
Huxley wins by a country mile. The conservative theocrats are aging and dying in America, and polls show people who answer “none of the above” to questionnaires about religious affiliation are the fastest-growing group in America. Wall-E depicts a world of gross inefficiency, and at the rate current recycling tech is taking off, looks like we’re very soon going to be a world like the one Bruce Sterling depicts in some of his short stories where everything is recyclable and there’s no waste at all. What with giant 3D printers able to take scrap and print buildings from it, and recent advances in bioengineering that have produced plants able to make synfuels, we’re well on the way.
Recent advances in neural-brain interfaces make Huxley’s “feelies” only a matter of time. Soma is right around the corner, if not here already.
We’ve already got a helmet that can reliably induce feelings of religious ecstasy. (Google Michael Persinger’s “God helmet.” They’ve even got some YouTube videos showing the effects.) Niven’s tasp is just a matter of time.
Redshirt
@scav: Most “normal” people believe in The Golden Rule, and Live and Let Live. Most people do not want to be murdered or raped or otherwise harmed. Thus, murder, rape, assault, etc, should be prohibited by law and enforced by police. However, equally so, most people enjoy love, and sex, and having fun. Prohibitions against these acts go against human nature and result in highly unnecessary suffering for a great many people.
Ruckus
@A Ghost To Most:
I agree but will accept that I may be wrong about everything.
mclaren
@A Ghost To Most:
Congratulations on successfully enacting the lowest level of Paul Graham’s Hierarchy of Disagreement. Par for the course in this forum.
The prophet Nostradumbass
Well, that about wraps it up for God.
trollhattan
Anyone else see Maher shred St. Ronaldus last night? Worth a look-see if not.
http://videos.mediaite.com/video/Bill-Maher-New-Rule-060713
Completely agree, Dems shouldn’t be complicit in the continued deification–we’ve never recovered from his eight-year organized crimewave.
Chris
@Ruckus:
Yes, true. I’m sure the RCC would never have gotten that open minded if it wasn’t for several hundred years of victories by Enlightenment values.
OTOH, even though Catholicism and a lot of Abrahamic religious groups used to be a lot more rigid and absolutist (hell, plenty of them still are), not all religions were like that either. As I understand paganism, it was a pretty pluralistic setup. Your people might have a god that specifically looked after them (Athens had Athena, Troy had Apollo, etc), but that didn’t mean you were required to disbelieve in all the other peoples’ gods, or that these people were damned and evil simply because they had a different god (in that setup, gods were closer to patron saints in the Abrahamic faiths than the Abrahamic God, I guess).
Yatsuno
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Note to self: avoid zebra crossings.
/somewhat obscurity
Chris
@Redshirt:
Being a history nerd, just watching how much progress has been made in the last five hundred years (technological, medical, sociological) does kind of keep me going. Heck, just things like watching the speed with which public opinion changed on gay marriage is enough to give hope – I think it’s the first time I’ve seen “the arc of history is long but it bends towards justice” in action in my short life.
OTOH, reading about the many times progress has gone backwards (most notably on economics in the last fifty years) does remind me of one thing – never take progress for granted.
mclaren
@trollhattan:
Amen!
Preach it, brother!
Rick Perlstein’s follow-up book after Nixonland is supposed to be a takedown of Reagan. Looking forward to it.
Little-known Reagan tidbit: 1 month before the May 4 1970 Kent State massacre, in April 1970, Ronald Reagan mused in public that it was time to stop vietnam war protesters, saying “If it takes a bloodbath, let’s get it over with. No more appeasement.” In other words, Americans needed to murder their own children with police and the army. Within hours, Reagan frantically tried to do damage control, claiming “It was only a figure of speech.”
Source: Ronald Reagan’s off-the-cuff remarks to the Council of California Growers on 7 April 1970.
UPI news at the time reported:
Nice guy, Ronald Reagan.
Punchy
In the absence of an open thread, I’ll just say BLAXHAWX BITCHEZ! Bruins about to get beat in 5 games….
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Chris:
Yeah, but unlike the saints, the polytheistic gods could turn around and kick your ass for no good reason other than the fact that, say, Zeus- while disguising himself as a bull- impregnated your mom with you.
At least animists didn’t try to humanize their gods, or use some sort of logic to ascertain their gods’ actions. If half your tribe was drowned in a flash flood while crossing a creek, you weren’t to blame: The gods who animate the river simply had their own reasons that humans can’t know. Slap a name on the creek that means “Water of Death” and be careful the next time you’re near it.
Redshirt
@Punchy: LOL. I bet you twenty Internet bucks you’re wrong.
Ruckus
@Chris:
And there were the south pacific islanders who worshiped everything they saw, the trees, the sun, etc. They had no concept that anything else existed, that concrete or airplanes were possible. They could not conceive that they could make these things and they knew they didn’t make them grow or the sun come up or go down. It must be magic, or something bigger than them. They had no explanation because they had no ability to see anything else. We of course have that ability here and now but we must chose to use it, otherwise we will continue to make the old choices.
Redshirt
@Chris:
We are living in one of the most wonderful times in human history. Perhaps THE most wonderful. 500 years of steady progress has bequeathed us a technological marvel of a first world society that is lagging in its moral responsibilities, perhaps due to the speed of the technological advancements.
But progress is not given. We can always regress. Did you know there was a “Dark Ages” in ancient history?
Cacti
@trollhattan:
My personal fav
Remembering Reagan
scav
@Redshirt: The quote thing with “normal” isn’t enough, even if you believe it. It could just be an easy way to avoid thinking about the mixed bag of what actual people are like. Normal people are also selfish, greedy, lazy, nosy, well-meaning, ineffectual, dumb, uneasy with change and difference, territorial, bossy, and utterly confusing. I’ve seen very little evidence of a general default pattern of live and let live accumulate over the ages. They can manage it at times, but it doesn’t seem to be the benign best of all possible worlds baseline behavioe.
Chris
@mclaren:
Amazing how many “little known anecdotes” about Reagan there are like that.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Redshirt:
More than just Greece, of course.
I’m hoping someone in my lifetime discovers the origins of those fucking Sea People.
artem1s
@Mike E:
they should pay her for her time if they require her to come in for their paperwork. Obviously, she should try for unemployment, even if she doesn’t think she will meet the requirements.
Also, she should go straight to their biggest competitors and apply immediately.
Redshirt
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): “Sea People” – History’s most mysterious bad asses? Or History’s greatest bad asses, also too?
mouse tolliver
@mclaren:
They’re both assholes. Here’s a telling moment about the Reagans.
For context, Nancy’s supposed friend Rock Hudson died of AIDS in 1985. Less than a year later Bob Hope has her rolling in the aisles over what I consider a Rock Hudson AIDS joke.
Redshirt
@scav: I’m talking about laws aligned with human nature. While most humans might be greedy, they also disapprove of greed, and in a functioning society of “normal” people – which has been the majority of human societies for the entirety of humanity – there will be steps taken to limit any one person or group’s greed.
Spaghetti Lee
@Redshirt:
That would be the Daevites: http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-140
The prophet Nostradumbass
This has been a real fucking prize of a day. First, we had a house guest who I had to take to SFO this morning. When I got her there, she got out of the car, she mumbled something vaguely like “thanks”, I’m not sure, and buggered off. She treated our house like a hotel, and me like a fucking limo driver.
Then, the real capper, my mom had a cardiologist’s appointment yesterday. The doc ordered some blood tests. At 10 PM I got a call from her regular doctor instructing me or my brother to take her back to the clinic this morning. When she saw whoever was on call, the doc told my brother to take her to the Stanford emergency room. Now she’s in the hospital with hyperthyroidism, which is making her heart race, among other weird things.
Bah Humbug.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Redshirt:
Definitely mysterious. They might just seem bad because the regions they were hitting had already been decimated, for whatever reasons.
Have you ever seen the Nova episode titled The Bible’s Buried Secrets? There’s some pretty convincing evidence that the Kingdom of Israel was an amalgamation of the Semites and the lower class Canaanites who survived the Late Bronze Age collapse of their city-states. If you look at the archaeological evidence and read Genesis, it becomes clear that there are two separate narrative lines in that book, one the story of the Semites’ travels, the other the story of the collapse of the Canaanite city-states.
trollhattan
@mclaren:
Would love to see the Perlstein treatment, I hope it happens. We need a corrective to the lies that have ’80-’88 as some kind of utopian America. Gaaah.
http://wheresthefridge.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/thumbs_we_told_them_the_wealth_would_trickle_down.jpg#and%20we%20told%20them%20it%20would%20trickle%20down%20500×389
Yatsuno
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Ugh. Not fun. Hope your mom is doing better.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@trollhattan: there’s a fascinating book about the media during the Reagan years by Mark Hertsgaard, “On Bended Kneee”. It’s definitely worth reading.
Comrade Luke
@? Martin: I use 1Password religiously, and one thing I’ve learned is that I have accounts on WAY more sites than I’ve realized, and I consider myself to be pretty conservative with this stuff. I really need to spend a day or so deleting accounts.
The other lesson you receive when using something like 1Password is how poorly coded some sites are. I’ve seen sites that don’t allow more than half a dozen characters in a password, and more than one that accepts a password longer than they require, that just truncate.
I swear, if people knew the fifth-rate coding that’s done on many of these sites, they’d never give over their information. But they just enter aaaa as a password and move on. It’s crazy.
Redshirt
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): I have not seen that series, and have no way of doing so.
Regardless, regarding the mysterious “Sea People“, let us not forget they are recorded as having fucked with/destroyed many famous ancient societies: Egypt. Assyria. The entire Anatolia peninsula. Greece. Dalmatia – you name it, these Sea Peoples fucked it up. The greatest pirates/vikings/huns of all time.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Yatsuno: thank you.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
Yes, but there is evidence of drought in the region just previous to their appearance. Much of the Anatolia and the Levant had also just previously come under Hittite control, and the Hittite collapse was more probably caused by an internal power struggle. These things could have easily contributed to a major weakening of the region that made conquest very easy.
Oh HELL NO! The Mongols, FTW! It isn’t even close.
Redshirt
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Hello?! The Sea Peoples caused a like 400 year dark age during which cultures all over the Mediterranean struggled to get back to remotely the standards they had decades past. They were some kind of ancient heavy metal gangbangers writ large.
MikeJ
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
What about Haystack Calhoun?
Yatsuno
@Redshirt: I’m behind Max here. The Mongol Empire is the single largest territory ever held by one ruler in the history of mankind. And when the Mongols sent their scouts the cities of the Middle East had two choices: complete surrender (which meant forced conscription but Mongol rule also had advantages) or complete destruction. The only thing really stopping the Mongols as far as they did was the death of Jenghis Khan. The next ruler had to be determined by all the generals (using the wrong term I know but it’s late dammit) of the Golden Horde, so they pulled back to Mongolia. Kubilai was not quite the competent ruler, so the Mongols lost their gains, but at its peak 30+ million lost their lives to a Mongol sword. It also sent the Islamic empire into a death spiral that it never really recovered from. So the Mongols could be said to have lengthened the second European Dark Age as well, since Islamic scholarship mostly stopped.
Cliff in NH
small town? local?
sit on Public Property with a sign:
These people fired me for calling in sick so your kids wouldn’t get sick.
little publicity will do them good, esp how they want peoples kids to get sick for profit$
just sit outside for a week, you were fired, what else is going on?
if ya got a laptop, sit there filling out job apps, or edit resumes, blog, whatever.
The Other Chuck
@Yatsuno:
In terms of sheer area, sure. Easy to cross empty steppe on horseback. In terms of population, extent (Britain to Syria), and sheer longevity, the Romans I think still took the crown.
Redshirt
Mongols versus Sea People!
sunday, Sunday, SUNDAY!
PsiFighter37
SUPERBATURAL BLACK HOLE, FOOOOOOS
PF37 +11
Redshirt
@The Other Chuck: No one beats the Romans. The English came close, kinda.
PsiFighter37
SHAZAAAAAAAAAM
Redshirt
@PsiFighter37: LOL ROLL TIDE
Cliff in NH
@Cliff in NH:
if it’s anything like computer work, you may get private offers that exceed her previous pay with fewer kids to look after.
PsiFighter37
IT DOESNT’ FUCKING MATTER BECUASE OBAMA SOLD US OUT WORSE THAN BUSSHH!@!131231312
OH YEAH, that’s right. All these bitches complaining about shit don’t worry about shades of gray
PsiFighter37
fuck all you firebaggers who are aiding and abetting the GOP, btw.
Redshirt
As PS37’s internet lawyer, let me first indemnify him from all future crimez.
PsiFighter37
Okay, to be honest, I havent kept an exact count of how many of you bituches want o burn Obama st the steak for these NSA revelations.
But reading GOS, they’re read y to rast him like h’es Joan of Arc.
the only Takeaway is that the left wing is as stupid as the French foos back in the 15th centuty, ior the 14th, whenver that faiux-witch buirning took place.
Don’t be a bunch of ftardsm fools.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Redshirt:
There’s absolutely no proof that the Sea Peoples caused the collapse. If they were the primary cause rather than just another contributing factor, then, yeah, they’d be badasses, but ensuing dark age or not, they weren’t the Mongols.
The Mongols beat the shit out of the strongest armies offered up by both the eastern and western sides of Eurasia. The Mongols went from a second rate tribe of Steppe nomads to the rulers of the largest land empire the planet has ever known, and they did it in the blink of an eye (relatively speaking), and they sustained it much longer than a non-literate civilization should be able to. The only reason they aren’t discussed more seriously in the modern West is because the Khan leading the invasion of Europe was called back to Mongolia upon the death of the Great Khan. If not for this, the Mongols would have made it all the way through France, and probably over the Pyrenees and all the way through Portugal.
And everything in that last paragraph- with the exception of the last sentence- is well documented. Some of the events of the Late Bronze Age are documented, but none of those are even remotely documented well.
PsiFighter37
I’m pretty solid conveied by now that the netroots has zerio unsdertanding of how to execute the game of politics. Mainly bcause they think politics is like a fucking SimCity simulation.
S epressined
PsiFighter37
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): No one cares baout histor rgiht now.
PsiFighter37
HUMNAUNGUAUGUDSUGUA
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@The Other Chuck:
THEY TOOK CHINA- CHINA! 13TH CENTURY CHINA!!!1!!111!!11!!!!! AND PERSIA, AND WHAT’S NOW PAKISTAN!
Do you honestly not know how much more populous those areas were compared to the area ruled by Rome at it’s greatest?
Steeplejack (tablet)
@Redshirt:
I presume you are getting your scholarly information from the History Channel, peer-reviewed by Discovery.
Even the basic Wikipedia article is far more nuanced.
Chris
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
I believe I’ve read a theory that the Sea People weren’t the cause of all that dark age stuff, but another result of it.
PsiFighter37
BLAHBLAHABLAHAHHAHAALBLLAHHALHA
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
Sea Peoples? Bronze Age Dark Ages? Collapse of early civilizations? Cool beans, I learn so much on this blog. It’s more than just dogs and cats living together. Thanks, historian persons!
MikeJ
@PsiFighter37: What it reminds me most of is the first debate against Romney and OMIGOD WE’RE GONNA DIE HOW COULD HE BE SO AWFUL!
And then two weeks later everyone was all, “yeah, I knew it all along”.
Yatsuno
@PsiFighter37: Way to know you’re verschnickered: when you may have sworn in Finnish without even trying. :)
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): They sacked Baghdad and had eyes on Turkey and Egypt when word came that the Great Khan had died. They were also knocking on the gates of Moscow at the same time. It seemed like not even severe weather could stop the Golden Horde. Only Jenghis’ mortality really saved Europe. And oh yeah: they had been ruling China and its several hundred million people for over a decade by that point.
YellowJournalism
@PsiFighter37: Doesn’t compare to the people who get their notion of sex from the love bed in the first Sims game.
Yatsuno
@YellowJournalism: Not quite related, but it made me think of this.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Yatsuno:
IIRC, it was after the death of the next Great Khan, when they were in Hungary, that the invasion was called off.
@Chris:
Exactly.
? Martin
@YellowJournalism: Wait, it doesn’t work like that?
Chris
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason:
I love the fact that occasionally a topic will come up that I haven’t thought about in years. In this case, the Sea People. First heard about that mystery when I was seven or eight and Mom got me a book that was basically the story of the Illiad and Odyssey, but annotated with all kinds of cool stuff about the real history of that era. Which is what jump started my fascination with history (and later international relations and politics). This takes me WAAAY back.
YellowJournalism
@Yatsuno: Whoa. What defines “social situation,” I wonder? Does WoW count? Trolling BJ? Or else there’s a lot more of that going around outside of Japan!
YellowJournalism
@? Martin: Not sure. I’ve only moved onto the Sims 2 version where you make funny noises under the covers in order to have a baby.
patrick II
@mai naem:
With Joan, it seems, any plastic surgeon will do.
I’m kidding, I’m just kidding.
The prophet Nostradumbass
Something else awesome from today. This afternoon my brother told me there was something important he had to do with his girlfriend, while we were at the hospital. I find out tonight that the important thing was looking at fucking sewing machines.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): @Yatsuno:
Had to look it up…The Mongols were across the Danube in 1241, on their way to Vienna, when Jenghis’ son (and successor as Great Khan), Ogedei, died.
Yatsuno
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): I knew Persia was long under their control. The westward reach was what I was forgetting, mostly because it was a bit outside my milieu. I thought they actually made it to Vienna as well (at least the scouts did) before turning back. And again really too lazy to look it up at this precise moment.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason:
I got the history bug by watching the Peabody’s Improbable History segments on Rocky and Bullwinkle, just as I was beginning to read. I still pick up little tidbits in the most unlikely places, then work to flesh out the studies.
Ruckus
@Redshirt:
I wonder if that’s why scientoligists use the sea/navy as a theme in their structure.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Yatsuno:
It’s a lot to listen to, but there’s a great series of podcasts here that are all about the Mongols. I recommend checking out the series on the fall of the Roman Republic before it goes away to pay territory, too.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@MikeJ:
Okay, that was funny. As would be Tunch.
Anne Laurie
@Ruckus:
Nah, LRon just luurved his naval days. The Navy didn’t return his affections, so when he had the chance, he tried to make his flock build him a nicer one all his very own.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Anne Laurie: did you know that L Ron was the youngest Eagle Scout ever? Scientology ads say it, and everyone knows that TV ads are all True.
Ruckus
@Anne Laurie:
I’ve been in the real navy and I have a relative deep in scientology. I’ve seen Lron’s office/shrine and I have to say the real navy is a lot more fun and I didn’t feel as slimy and in need of a shower.
? Martin
@Anne Laurie: I thought the whole SeaOrg thing was simply to avoid taxes. Didn’t they set up proper operations on land once they got that status from the IRS?
gelfling545
@MomSense:
I guess their version left out this part.
gelfling545
@Mike E: Do not allow her to sign anything on the spot. Take it home & look it over. They may be trying to get her to sign papers saying she had been “counseled” about this, admit some type of wrongdoing or otherwise make her ineligible for unemployment. Even if she’s not actually eligible, don’t let her sign anything.
gelfling545
@Ruckus:
By using the actual words of the putative founder?
gelfling545
@Bill Arnold: You may want to start here.
patrick II
Supernatural wealth transfer means that you have a $300,000 mortgage on a $400000 house and…woosh one morning you wake up and have a $300,000 mortgage on a $200,000 house and the banker got a $200,000 bonus.
MomSense
@Chris: @gelfling545:
I’m thinking we could try shoving this guy through the eye of a needle for starters.
lojasmo
@Mike E:
Well, as she is fired, I would calmly explain that she was actually sick, and offer them a chance to hire her back. If they decline, I would tell them in no uncertain that they can eat a bag of salted dicks.