The Obama administration will stop trying to limit sales of emergency contraception pills, making the morning-after pill available to women of all ages without a prescription.
Blocking Plan B was never good policy, and I never understood why it was good politics. Specifically, I don’t buy this:
Barack Obama supported that restriction, invoking his daughters. But the timing, 11 months ahead of the presidential election, sparked criticism that he was trying to placate social conservatives.
The anti-contraception social conservatives are anti-abortion social conservatives, they’re one-issue voters, and there’s no way they’re voting for abortionist-in-chief Obama and his OR nurse Kathleen Sebelius. And yes, it makes people uncomfortable that 15 year-olds have sex and might need Plan B. The only thing worse than a 15 year-old having unprotected sex is a pregnant 15 year-old.
A lot of craven Democratic politics is based on two bad habits. First, there’s the Shrum-like need to placate some imaginary cohort of persuadable voters: “We can’t do this because suburban minivan-driving soccer moms who voted for Bush in ’04 and Obama in ’08 will blame Obama if they see Plan B on sale at Target.” Second, there’s the expectation that youth do not vote and do not pay attention. The olds are the ones who are squicked out about Plan B, not the youngs. It would be nice to do something for them once in a while, other than taking their votes completely for granted.
Baud
If there is evidence to back up your claims about voting outcomes, I’d love to see it. And there are lots of voters that aren’t dyed in the wool Republicans who are squeamish about this issue, particularly in swing states.
c u n d gulag
Conservatives always vote for people with an “R” next to their name.
Never “R-Lite,” which is what Red Dog Democrats are (I calls ’em that, ’cause thar ain’t nothin’ Blue, ’bout ’em!).
People who vote, like people who stand up for their beliefs. They want the “real thing.”
And they know when politicians are faking it. A faker might get elected once, but is rarely reelected. Witness the losses that Red Dogs took in the last couple of elections.
mistermix
@Baud:
Speaking of evidence, got any for this claim?
Betty Cracker
As the liberal parent of a teenage girl myself, I can attest it’s possible to have misgivings about granting 15-year-olds access to Plan B without giving a thought to pandering to wingnut SoCons or assuming young people aren’t paying attention / don’t matter.
I’m glad they’re lifting the restrictions. But I think there’s room for good-faith disagreement on the restrictions among liberals.
Baud
@mistermix:
Nah. I overstated my case also. My experience is anecdotal. But I’m wary of the assumption that Democrats are necessarily trying to win over hard Rs when they do this stuff.
Anyway, all’s well that ends well.
Todd
As the dad of daughters and (primarily) a family law guy, I have no problem whatsoever with Plan B. I get multiple calls weekly from guys and girls in their teens and early 20s who have support or custodial issues related to having intimate relationships on an extremely casual basis, not even living together, and the girl misguidedly bringing the baby to term. Their life choices now being constrained by the expense and geographic limitations assorted with child rearing, they get to suffer stunted lives and lost opportunity because the overall message sold for the past 20 years is one of “have that baby”. As a result, they get to coparent with someone they don’t know or have a reason to trust. Their holidays and vacations are no longer “theirs”, and every activity coordinated through a little known other.
It’s bullshit.
Cacti
Do you have children, mistermix? Daughters in particular?
SRW1
“Make me do it.”
Mission accomplished.
Stella B.
@Todd: +1
Just read the comments on the NY Times story in today’s edition. The anti plan B people are also pointing out that Obama “never had a job” and that they teach their children “morals” in their (southern) states.
JPL
Pharmacists can refuse to fill birth control because of stupid Bush era moral and conscience rules. How does this apply to Plan B? Will small pharmacies just not carry it?
Todd
@Betty Cracker:
Yup. There is the medical side of big whoppin’ hormone doses. Then there is the other issue related to psychology and teen rearing – is the sexual relationship that the teen is in safe, does it need to cool off? Can she handle the stress of a breakup? Are we encouraging a bad relationship?
JPL
@Stella B.: Are they assuming that Constitutional law professors donate their time?
gelfling545
When I first thought about this, I thought of my granddaughter who is, as it happens, 15. I could imagine her making the mistake of believing that this drug could be used as routine contraception. Then I realized that I knew adults who might make the same mistake and that there are adults who already believe mistakenly that it induces abortion. Education is the key, I guess.
mistermix
@Cacti: This comes up every time I post about children, and the answer is, Yes, I have a teenage daughter. Here are my other life circumstances:
I was raised by a man who delivered and cared for many, many children of young single mothers and told me some hair-curling stories about them and, sadly, sometimes the terrible things that happened to their unwanted babies.
My wife works with a poor population where a lot of 15 (and 14 and 13 and 12 and 11) year-old girls are having unprotected sex and unwanted children.
So on the balance, I figure I’ll take a little risk that my daughter might take Plan B without my knowledge so these other girls who I’ve heard about all my life have a better chance. And I’ll also trust the same organizations that I entrust my wife and daughter’s care, the FDA and American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, with the judgment of whether Plan B is safe or not, rather than whatever feels I feel on the subject.
Cacti
@mistermix:
No more that necessary, but thanx for the add’l info.
I was just wondering if you were part of the intended audience for the politics of this issue. Question answered.
Keith G
@Baud: But my anecdotal experience (friends and relatives in Oho) backs up yours. Prolly still not enough to make a data point, but there it is. These folks are fiscal conservatives (a la Bob Dole), moderate on some social issues and progressive on others.
I imagine many of them have not thought enough about this issue to have a set position. That is where leadership comes in. Earlier, this president could have made a case and two years ago we could have gotten to where we are today.
Not a study in audacity.
Todd
@Cacti:
For people without daughters, they don’t understand the screwed up world in the teenaged daughter mind.
Cacti
@gelfling545:
Education is key, and it’s where we fail young people so badly as a society.
We have huge cultural hang ups about sex that prevent us from discussing it with teenagers in a candid and meaningful way. A fair percentage of the population thinks that sex education should be limited to “keep your pants on you little trollops” (always the female’s responsibility to say no, of course).
greennotGreen
I would like to see even more promulgation of information about safe sex, just in case the availability of Plan B increases the likelihood of unprotected sex. Not saying it would, but more info about safe sex hammered into the small recesses of the youthful brain not occupied by thoughts of SEX can’t be a bad thing.
Baud
@Keith G:
A large component of leadership is picking battles, so I don’t find that sort of criticism convincing.
Eric U.
I have to admit I really don’t want to think about my daughter’s contraception choices at all. This is just, because children don’t want to think about their parents having sex either. That’s all a ridiculous reason to avoid selling Plan B.
We really should have real sex ed in schools, at least to the extent of telling kids about their options. I guess we aren’t grown up enough as a country to do this though. As far as southern “values,” doesn’t the south lead the country in unwed mothers?
The Other Bob
If your daughter is going out and getting Plan B without your permission, you have already screwed something up as a parent. Having the law force some sort of parental involvment at that point is just too little too late.
Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)
@Todd:
FTFY.
Keith G
@Baud: Of course not.
Let me go on, with this edit –
Picking the right battle is an art, indeed. Sometime the right battles are overlooked. Humans have been known to make the wrong call on occasion.
Baud
@Keith G:
I agree with that.
jibeaux
@Todd:
It bothers me when people don’t understand the word “choice”. The freedom to choose encompasses just as much the freedom to have a child as it does to not have a child, and that choice isn’t any of your business. The misguided behavior in that scenario happened well before the birth of the baby.
Emma
Count me among the ones celebrating who also understand the problem parents may have with young girls getting medication without any consultation. But still, all in all, it’s good.
gelfling545
@mistermix:
It seems that others here are saying , essentially, the same. They are just acknowledging that there were some “feels” to come to terms with before arriving at their reasoned opinion.
Rosalita
@gelfling545: Education is the key, I guess.
Rosalita
well I screwed up that comment format and can’t figure out how it went wrong.
raven
Mika was tsk tsking like mad this morning while everyone else on the show was in support.
raven
@Eric U.: Yes but you KNOW who those mothers are.
Tone in DC
@Stella B.:
I have all but given up reading the comments on newspaper sites, CNN and the like. For something like this, I’ll take a non-Rasmussen poll.
the Conster
@raven:
I really don’t know how you can sit through that every day. Do you ever learn anything? Not confirm your knowledge about the Village, but actually learn anything useful?
Patricia Kayden
@Baud: I don’t think you have to be a conservative/Repub to be concerned about very young girls having access to birth control pills without parental knowledge.
Betty Cracker
@The Other Bob:
I’m not so sure that’s true. We are animals, after all, and when we’re teenagers, we’re extremely randy little bunnies, even if carefully brought up.
ETA: I support removing the Plan B restrictions, BTW. Just wanted to point out that sexually active kids sans birth control aren’t necessarily a sign of bad parenting.
sparrow
@jibeaux: Well, if the outcome is a teenager who is sorry she had a baby, and a child that is unwanted, I’d say that was a misguided choice on the face of it. I’m absoluely in support of people keeping their babies if they want to, but the balance is typically far more on the side of coercing people to keep than coercing to abort.
Raven
@the Conster: I’ve cut way back since they moved msnbc to the digital tier but, yes, Howard Dean was really good on this issue this morning. Mika was doing her best “scolding catholic mother” routine and he simply stated that the FDA is supposed to rule on the science not the moral aspect. Furthermore , I now am stuck with CNN for our screen porch breakfast and, despite the dopes on Joe, I still find it more informative.
Todd
@the Conster: I really don’t know how you can sit through that every day. Do you ever learn anything? Not confirm your knowledge about the Village, but actually learn anything useful?
Linda Featheringill
@raven:
I’ve seen little evidence that Mika lives in the real world and thus she has no idea of the bad things that can happen to young mothers. Or not-so-young ones, for that matter.
A Humble Lurker
I too can see not-completely-red-and-insane people being squeamish about Plan B and that possibly being a problem for someone who wants to get elected.
I myself am for it, though. The thing about Plan B that I don’t hear people mention much…isn’t it an excellent tool for rape victims? Someone who commits rape isn’t necessarily going to be wearing a condom, and while Plan B can’t help you in the event of disease, it can at least be used as a just in case. This is also especially good if you live in one of the crazy states that would be happy to force you to have your rapist’s baby. And it gives a stigmatized person the chance to do something if they can’t bring themselves to ask for help.
MomSense
My perspective is as someone who makes a lot of phone calls and visits to voters during elections. I am glad that I will not have to deal with bad Obama wants to give birth control to babies from the older and the more conservative demographic that votes reliably in mid-terms.
In mid term elections the Republicans will be running against the President and this is an irresistible issue for them. Let them run against “activist judges” instead.
cleek
@mistermix:
there’s this guy i know, Barack Obama… has some daughters, was squeamish about it… etc..
rk
This is also needed for adult women. When I needed plan B, I had to call my doctor, wait for hours for the nurse to call back and have the prescription sent to the pharmacy (thankfully there was no asshole pharmacist to chime in with his/her moral judgment). Also I would like to inform people that Plan B is only 75% effective as told to me by my obstetrician.
Keith G
@Emma: @gelfling545: I am fascinated by the turbulence and emotional cross currents generated by issues of reproductive behavior and choice. This most basic mammalian process has been so mercilessly mucked about by human progress.
I understand why some fight against some of the change, through I don’t agree with their doctrines.
Shortstop
@the Conster: And then finding the need to constantly and breathlessly report on what’s happening on that lame-ass show. If anyone else here cared, we’d waste our own time watching it.
@Betty Cracker: I don’t even have kids and I’m cutting parents big slack on that one. Good parenting is no guarantee your children won’t have sex at an early age. Not wanting parents to know about it is extremely common teenaged behavior, not a sign of bad family communication practices.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
As MomSense indicates, it’s not their votes being taken for granted, it’s their lack of voting, especially in mid-terms, and maybe even more so in state elections. If you don’t vote, you’re giving greater weight to the people who do. If the last thirteen years didn’t get it through people’s heads that voting matters, and there is a difference between the two parties, it’s hard for me to feel sorry for them
mistermix
@gelfling545: I’m not making the claim that I’m some Spock-like creature, but, honestly, I’m more concerned about laws that will get her in a shitpot of trouble for normal teenage behavior (draconian pot laws, drinking age of 21), or having laws that sound great to “conservatives” but really put her in danger (Plan B). It is more dangerous for her to be pregnant than to take Plan B, by a wide, wide margin. There’s also a great deal of “good for me but not for thee” from parents, many of whom were fucking everything that moved in their teenage years but now want to deny that to their kids.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
Actually knowing parents of daughters – I have all boys – I can see a number of them wanting to know if their daughter has taken one of the pills. They aren’t all like you, mm, sorry. These are the people that when they let their daughters go out tell them to be back at nine on Friday and Saturday, and are nagging them at 8:45.
Here’s the scenario I see: A large number of pharmacies in the south will refuse to sell it to minors, if at all. Enough will sell it that you will see a significant drop in teenage pregnancy. You will also have at least a dozen girls in the first couple of years take more than one, and probably at least one dying from overdosing. When you’re in a panic, you will do stupid stuff.
Betty Cracker
@Linda Featheringill:
Did you see that puke-worthy Kathleen Parker column in WaPo this weekend? If not, spare yourself: There was a summit convened by Mika B and Arianna Huffington (of all fucking people!) to discuss how women could reach greater levels of fulfillment in the workplace. Jesus. I thought about mocking it here, but decided to go chew a roll of tinfoil instead.
PopeRatzo
Plan B is not “protected sex”. It’s a fucking bomb, when a flyswatter used ahead of time would have been better.
We really don’t want young women to use Plan B as Plan A.
I’m a reproductive rights absolutist, but goddamn, I’ve got a daughter and while I know she’s fully capable of protecting herself, some of her goofy-ass friends are going to start keeping Plan B on hand, just in case, and that’s not how it’s designed to be used. Walgreens isn’t a doctor. As a 15 year-old were you capable of self-diagnosing to the point where you could prescribe yourself such a powerful pharmaceutical?
I really think a 15 year-old should need to ask an 18 year-old to buy Plan B for her, the way we had to ask 18 year-olds to buy us beer. At least then there’s the chance that the 18 year old (my sister in this case) could say, “No, you’re already too high. No more beer for you”.
Damn, having a kid has really warped my politics. I can’t believe I just wrote all that.
jon
Parental control of teen sex: who has anecdotes that it works? As a teen, I was in control. I made decisions based on my desires balanced with opportunities and risks, just like everybody else. My own desire not to be a young father weighed far more heavily than my mom’s potential disappointment.
The white, suburban mom voting contingent, those same people who ended racism according to important historical record The Help, haven’t stopped teen pregnancy with their overwhelming disapproval yet, but they’ve still trying. Never underestimate their attachment to the Power of Tsk.
raven
@Shortstop: How bout the need to tell you to go fuck yourself asshole.
DecidedFenceSitter
@PopeRatzo: Except here’s the problem if that 18 year old says “No more Plan B for you,” and there’s a need for it, a very nervous/stressed month waiting to see if it WAS needed, or 9 months later you’ve got a different consequence.
It works in 72 hours, from what I understand, so the only self-diagnosing is “Did I have unsafe sex?” If your 15 year old can’t self-diagnose THAT, then we’ve got bigger issues.
MomSense
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
And we got what we wanted without it turning into a wedge issue before a critical election. Honestly my mantra right now is win first because I think 2014 is the most important election yet. I am not optimistic about Dem chances in 2016 if we have endless nothing happening because of Congress. And I am not optimistic about continuing to do nothing about climate change, immigration, gun violence. 60 Senators and majority of the House–eyes on the prize!
Betty Cracker
@jon:
Both funny and true. I would only add that it goes for dads too.
jon
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): At $30 and up per dose, an overdose is unlikely. Plus an overdose of hormones would probably not lead to death but… acne, breast development, messy periods, cramps, underactive ovaries, mood swings, and things other than instantaneous death.
And the pills might be available online.
Shortstop
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): Overdose to the point of death is pretty unlikely, but some people will make themselves pretty sick, for sure.
I wonder how many of the parents who feel uncomfortable about their young daughters taking this are also uncomfortable about their daughters buying condoms? That’s not a snarky question. I’m genuinely wondering how much parental worry, at least among liberal parents (I already know how conservative ones feel) is about kids having sex too young and how much is about kids taking hormonal drugs without parental knowledge or medical supervision.
kerFuFFler
@Betty Cracker: “I’m glad they’re lifting the restrictions. But I think there’s room for good-faith disagreement on the restrictions among liberals.”
Total agreement. I am glad that women of all ages will have access to the safest and earliest way of ending a pregnancy. That does not keep me from worrying that the youngest will abuse this added safeguard and treat it like “Plan A”. If ignorant and immature girls think it is OK not to use condoms because they can always fall back on plan B we are going to see a lot more STD’s.
Some young girls will have heard that pregnancy is something they don’t have to worry about because there is a pill that will deal with it. They may not bother to find out that it must be taken before you even know if you are pregnant. We may even see an uptick in young teen pregnancy because the security it provides invites riskier behavior.
I want ALL women to have access, but I wish there were a way to provide guidance, health information and general contraceptive info to the young teens without shaming them or frightening them off.
Forum Transmitted Disease
He was. He still is. On any given issue, he starts from square one, trying to work out some compromise first. He’s never understood that the GOP will keep up their stand in the schoolhouse door for as long as he is in office. He never will. It’s one of the most maddening things about the man. God knows he’s not stupid but he has a blind spot a mile wide when it comes to the GOP.
In addition to being utterly futile, I don’t think he knows just how discouraging this approach is to those who consider themselves Democrats. After the Bush years, we needed someone like Truman or Johnson; someone who was not afraid to fight. Instead, we got someone who asks the bully if he needs any more lunch money.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@jon: I wouldn’t put too much past the human body, and hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if some girl died from one pill. And, as someone above mentioned, someone will stockpile it, maybe a girl’s friends. This is a thread on a pill that we’re all hoping some girl will use when she finds herself pregnant unexpectedly. Panic is a powerful thing, especially if you are worried about your parents. I still remember being an idiot teenager, and I graduated near the top of my class.
ETA: I’m not against the pill. Just don’t be surprised when you hear stories of something going wrong with the pill. I wonder what will happen when a boy takes one.
Ruckus
@mistermix:
There is as I’m sure you know a lot of medical danger involved with pregnancy. Hormones not in the usual non pregnant dosages. As you so well stated it is a minefield of issues. Maybe 11-18 yr old girls and boys should not be having sex. (Why 15 or 16 or 18 or whatever is the cutoff I have no idea) But some of them have been since the first human walked. They will still be having sex at that age till the end of time. We now have a few ways they can stop getting pregnant, both before, during and after. The lifetime cost of teen pregnancy on everyone involved is immense. In money and life choices. Can we take the puritan life choices out of the equation? Forcing those costs on anyone is wrong. Forcing suffering on people to keep them from making poor choices they have already done is stupid. And wrong.
I always ask one question on this issue. Do we want women(and men) making their own decisions about their bodies? If the answer is yes then there should be no question on the issue at hand. Biologically 11-12(and some even younger) year old girls can get pregnant. They are women, not little girls, even if emotionally they may not be. Boys are the same. It’s not a matter of what we desire it’s a matter of what is.
MomSense
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
Ha! Really? He has never understood the GOP and has a soft spot for them? He’s not stupid but? When someone says I’m not racist but, you can bet the next thing they say will be racist.
He got the repeal of DADT and now access to plan B without having to engage the Republicans much at all. There are three branches of government that can be worked to achieve the desired result. I don’t understand the calls for him to do something in the least effective and most likely to fail method to prove that he is smart enough not to be played by the Republicans. Let the Republicans scream now about activist judges. It is far, far preferable to the alternative. Also, in both DADT and this the next President can’t undo progress with an executive order. The next Congress can’t just change the law. For both, all the ducks were in a row and progress was steady even if a little too slow for some. Slow and steady still wins the race.
Quarks
Plan B isn’t cheap. It’s about 50 dollars a shot over the counter. I can certainly see teenage girls getting a single dose without informing their parents, but downing several doses seems financially unlikely for most teens.
There’s also the issue that some teenage girls are already embarrassed about buying condoms because if they do “everyone” will know that they are having sex; Plan B has the same issue. And as Mistermix pointed out, Plan B, whatever its flaws, is safer than pregnancy.
Having been a teenager, I’m pretty sure that lots of teenagers are out there having sex without telling their parents, but I don’t think Plan B will impact that one way or another.
The Other Bob
@Betty Cracker:
Perhaps, but I suppose the “failure” I am referring to is the inability for a parent and kid to be able to communicate on the issue. Once Plan B is needed, the horse is out of the barn. No government-forced parental involvement will change that.
Heck, maybe if parent know their kids can go out and get Plan B, they will consider discussion PLAN A with their kids in advance.
jibeaux
@sparrow: He didn’t say that teenager was sorry she had a baby or that the child was unwanted. He implied that the choice was misguided because young men don’t like paying child support. Too bad.
Linnaeus
I thought the Obama administration was wrong to try to limit Plan B from the get-go. Better late than never, I suppose.
Keith G
@MomSense:
By “He” I assume you mean Joe Biden. And the current access to Plan B has come only after it was very clear that Obama would lose this one in court. Remember that in Judge Edward Korman’s opinion, he wrote that the Obama Administration’s decision to over rule the FDA was,
The only good decision this administration made in this issue was to finally see that going back to court would get their ass handed to them.
Xenos
@Todd:
I thought I had a good appreciation of the screwed up world in the teenage daughter mind, and then I had to confront and deal with the mysteries of the teenage son mind. Bill Cosby had it right when he declared that teenagers have brain damage.
MomSense
@Keith G: Oh, Keith–I’m going to let Booman take this for me.
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2013/6/11/12620/6420
Villago Delenda Est
@Stella B.:
This must explain all those teenage pregnancies. The “morals” that all those good little southern children are taught.
The stupid. It burns.
Stella B.
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): No really, it’s a super safe drug. The IVF docs prescribe huge doses to support early pregnancies and, of course, pregnant women make their own supply. It’s the same hormone that makes pregnant women hungry and sleepy.
There have been studies performed about the effect of EC availability on teenage sexuality and there is no effect. Remember that seven states including California approved OTC EC 8-10 years ago.
Stella B.
@Villago Delenda Est: i checked. In the top ten states for teen pregnancy we see NM and DE and eight red states. Those kind of “morals”.
Linnaeus
@MomSense:
I have a few problems with BooMan’s argument. For one thing, he needs to show that support for OTC Plan B was the president’s position in the first place. Secondly, it was quite a gamble for the administration to go to court; it’s not a given that the court was going to rule against them. Politically, I’m not convinced that the administration’s move to block Plan B sales was really all that decisive. I doubt that voters for whom Plan B was a salient issue were inclined to vote for Obama in the first place; likewise, I suspect that liberal-leaning voters who were squeamish on Plan B would have found enough reasons to vote for Obama
I think the fundamental weakness of BooMan’s argument is that it allows supporters of the president’s position on this issue to have it both ways: if the restriction stands, they can say “Well, he told you what his position was. Why are you surprised?” Now that the restriction has fallen, they say, “This was the plan all along.”
gelfling545
@Keith G: Well, it is rather hung about with emotions and, in our society, real negative consequences for premature participation. One usually hopes to spare one’s child pain where one may.
Stella B.
@gelfling545: but the availability of Plan B doesn’t appear to effect the decision making of children when you look at the actual data. Protecting ones children from having sex before they were able to make a rational decision about the matter has always been the argument against providing them with sex education too. However, if you look at the data, giving them valid sex education actually raises the age of sexual initiation.
MomSense
@Linnaeus:
It removes a cultural wedge issue and I would argue that it is more significant for the midterm elections in 2014 than it was for the general.
The President’s supporters “having it both ways” is completely irrelevant.
Cassidy
@Stella B.: No one here is saying that education or plan B or BC of any kind is bad. The access to all of the above is great. The problem would be the condescension being displayed to parents who do take issue with their teenage child having sex when they’re not ready. No parent wants that, but apparently a few people here thing it’s prudish if a parent doesn’t ask their 15 y/o daughter if she needs help putting it in.
LongHairedWeirdo
The thing about daughters is bullshit, anyway.
Look, if I had a daughter who needed Plan B, I’d hope she’d know to come to me, or her mom, or some trusted adult who we’ve set up as a contact, someone where we promise “you can talk to this person about *anything* – unless it involves people getting hurt or going to jail, we won’t hear about it.”
I’d really hope she’d do that.
But if she wouldn’t, it means something has gone horribly wrong. And letting her get pregnant won’t make that horrible wrongness any better.
Matt McIrvin
I have a daughter. She’s not a teenager yet, but will be in several years. I want her to have as many contraceptive options as possible and am thrilled that Plan B will be available OTC.
I think that if you want kids to make responsible decisions about sex, taking contraceptives away from them is a lousy way to do it. Educating them about risks and safeguards might not do it either, but if that’s ineffective, I seriously doubt that punitive/abstention-only approaches will help.
It’s just the weird general mindset our society has developed that the way to accomplish everything is through punitive disincentives that have horrible direct effects.
Linnaeus
@MomSense:
That’s one place where I part ways with you and BooMan. As polarized as the electorate already was on the president, the original move to block struck me as poor policy and a political move with diminishing returns.
I’ll disagree on that, too. I think “having it both ways” creates confusion and mistrust on a few levels.
BooMan could be entirely right. I’m just not convinced by the argument he presented.
gelfling545
@Stella B.: I was replying to Keith G’s comment about how fraught with emotional cross currents simple mammalian reproduction is, not making any case against the availability of Plan B, contraception or sex education. Replies should be read in context.
Mnemosyne
@LongHairedWeirdo:
It’s good that you feel that way, but there are a lot of otherwise liberal parents out there who don’t. Here in California, the forced birthers tried to get a parental notification law passed that would require teenage girls to get parental permission before an abortion. It lost in large part due to a very effective campaign called “Step Outside Your Bubble” that reminded parents that even if they wanted their little Madison or Brittney to talk to them before getting an abortion, there were girls out there who did not have that option who would be harmed by the law.
I really think that’s the tack that needs to be taken — don’t tell people they’re bad parents if they feel squeamish about letting their own little girls get Plan B over the counter, but remind them that not everyone’s daughter is as privileged as theirs is.
Cassidy
@Mnemosyne: Or how about, just thinking here…
Who the fuck are you to be judgemental about how I raise my kid!? (not directed at you in particular)
Seriously, if you’re one of those people who wants to be the one who itroduces your kid to pot or be all BFF’s with them when they and their boy/girlfirend go upsairs (don’t be too loud honey, we’re watchign TV. Do you need help?), that’s your business. Most of us don’t parent that way and the condescending fuckers here don’t have the right to judge. Go choke on a fucking rock.
Linnaeus
@Mnemosyne:
Sure, but my impression was that was more or less the tack being taken from critics of the president’s position from the outset (with some exceptions, of course). Or, sometimes, a variant of that: “Hey, our children do risky things and get into trouble despite our best efforts to teach them to make responsible choices”, coupled with a nod to the data about the drug itself and other countries’ experience with it.
Mnemosyne
@Linnaeus:
There seemed to be a range of approaches, from the ones you listed all the way to “hey, who are we to tell 15-year-olds not to have sex?”
Honestly, it always seemed to me that it was Kathleen Sebilius that we needed to concentrate our efforts on, not the president. IIRC, she personally overrode expanding access a couple of times, and the president backed her up. I’m guessing that, behind the scenes, Sebilius was finally convinced that it was the right thing to do, and she was able to bring everyone else along with her since they were already half-convinced anyway.
Mike G
he was trying to placate social conservatives
And possibly changed the mind of the 3 social conservatives in America who might vote for Obama.
Central Planning
@kerFuFFler:
Can we at least be correct? Plan B doesn’t end a pregnancy, it prevents one from happening. fertilization != pregnancy
AHH onna Droid
@mistermix: Noy to mention, Castro amf other horrific rapists found ways to eliminate teh babbies w/o Plan B. This posy date rape drug stuff is bs. Some rapists of children just kill them before the pregnancy is discovered. Tired of thr sheltered and/or delusional arguing social policy from first principles. Lets mitigate harm in this world and save the dream world for nap time.
Also, my phone sux.
AHH onna Droid
@Cassidy: As a chikd abuse survivor, kindly go fuck yourself. Yoir children are not your homuncul slaves. I will always fight for state interventin because every child deserves an advocate who speaks for THEM.
AHH onna Droid
.@Cassidy: Wondering how you get to the point of conglating a good grounding with forced pregnancy. Also, why are you so emotionally involved in your cjild’s secuality?
Not to scare u or anything, but your child has been mssturbating for years, probs has already rebuffed creepy rapists online, seeks out pix of nekkid people, writes fuckef.up fanfic about tv or pop music stars, endures daily sexual harrassment in the hallway, has crushes on teachers, and has heard all sorts of schoolyard fabulizing. If ur child is actually being hurt/coerced, a calm, caring parent who assures her that her value is not between the legs would be a better advocate than an angry, authoritarian parent who infantalizes their child.
AHH onna Droid
PopeRatzo: Serioisly? U soind male bodied. Not all girls tolerate yhe pill well and condoms break. Pharmacies arent avail24/7. Those kids keepong plan b with them are intelligently planning ahead. Sounds like students most likely to succeed, not dumb sluts or jwhatever u were trying to imply. Jeez.
Fred Fnord
You haven’t embraced the conservative mindset, I see. To them, the only thing worse than a 15-year-old girl having unprotected sex is a 15-year-old having unprotected sex and not getting punished for it, either by getting pregnant or by getting an STD, or preferably both.
15-year-old boys, of course, are allowed, under the ‘nyah nyah nyah I don’t have to be self-consistent, that’s the left’s job’ clause.
Stella B.
@Linnaeus: nobody is saying that 15 year olds should have sex. Data shows that making Plan B or BC pills available doesn’t change their likelihood of having sex in either direction. You are still perfectly free, however, to teach your children your moral views about pre-marital sex whether or not Plan B is OTC. You just aren’t free to impose those views on my children. (My “children” actually have tails and I had ’em neutered.).
Giving children real information about sex and teaching them how to say “no” effectively is what prevents early sex. Your children will have sex sooner or later, though, and are unlikely to wait until marriage no matter what their religious views. The average age in the US is 17. As others have pointed out, they are exposed to it all the time. I heard my first “dirty” joke — which I didn’t understand — in Brownies. Certainly the method by which babies exited mommy’s tummy was a topic of interest in kindergarten, too.
Linnaeus
@Stella B.:
Oh, I understand that – that’s what I was getting at. I’m in agreement with your position.
Cassidy
@AHH onna Droid: First off, you’re not the only one who was beat as a kid. Yeah it sucks. Secondly, I’m not involved in my child’s sexuality. I am involved in raising my child and it’s not yours or anyone else’s fucking business how I do that. Pull the cross out of your ass.
LongHairedWeirdo
@Mnemosyne: Nod. I might also be a bit more understanding that something could happen from out in left field. Say, a trusted family friend assaults her, and if it had been a stranger, she’d have come right to us, but it wasn’t a stranger, and she’s just too freaked out to talk to us yet. If she’s wise enough to think “must not get pregnant”, I’d hate for her not to get Plan B because she was blocked by these idiotic regulations.
Yes, I’d like a regulation that says “if my daughter needs Plan B, I’ll learn about it” but that’s *not* what this regulation would do.