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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Ignore the Backseat Drivers

Ignore the Backseat Drivers

by Betty Cracker|  June 13, 20136:35 pm| 329 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs, Politics, Republican Stupidity, War, Decline and Fall, Did You Know John McCain Was A POW?, hoocoodanode, Sociopaths, Sweet Fancy Moses!

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backseatdrivers

At a recent closed-door event (where remarks were recorded, of course), Bill Clinton reportedly said President Obama risks looking like a “wuss” and a “fool” for staying on the sidelines in Syria. John McCain, who never met a war he didn’t want to mong (H/T Jim, Foolish Literalist), angrily attended that same event and angrily agreed with Clinton’s assessment. McCain has been angrily emitting angry noises about Obama’s reluctance to open up a third conflict for months now.

To his credit, Obama has ignored the backseat drivers so far. Here’s Booman, via commenter lamh36:

Bill Clinton is correct when he says that you can’t let opinion polls be your guide to foreign policy. But when he compares the situation in Syria to the situation he faced in Kosovo, he’s making one of the stupidest statements that I have ever heard from him…

First of all, the idea that the United States can “cause” a calamity in Syria is ridiculous. It is already a calamity, and it’s not because of our inaction. And the idea that all we need to do to fix the calamity and solve the refugee problem is to “drop a few bombs” is beyond idiotic.

For Clinton to appear with John McCain and make comments like this is a perfect vindication of my total opposition to his wife’s candidacy for president. We cannot afford more leadership from people who think about American power in this way. Obama has already overruled the advice of Hillary Clinton, the Joints Chiefs of Staff, then Director of the CIA David Petraeus, and then Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, and kept us out of the conflict in Syria. Now he has the former president intimating that he’s a wuss and a fool.

This is what we gained when we won the presidency for Obama. A cool head.

But even as you read this, CNN and other media outlets are designing slick new logo packages for reports on the next conflict, the occasion being the news that the White House has said Syria crossed a “red line” by using chemical weapons. The drumbeat is getting a bit louder.

I don’t claim to understand all the facts and implications in the Syria situation, although obviously it’s a tragedy, and innocent people, including children, are being harmed and killed. That sucks.

But should we really be shoveling weapons to the people who are opposing Assad, as McCain has angrily urged? Is it a good idea to send RPGs to the heart-eater guy and take sides in a conflict between factions aligned with Hezbollah on one side and al Qaeda on the other? Can’t we continue to provide humanitarian assistance and otherwise stay the fuck out of it?

According to another account of Clinton’s remarks, he made an additional astoundingly wrongheaded comparison:

He compared Syria with Afghanistan when that country was fighting the Soviet Union in the 1980s. American help to the Afghans at that time yielded great benefits for the U.S. in the eyes of the Afghan people. Unfortunately, the U.S. didn’t follow up by supporting Afghanistan and Americans shouldn’t think interventions are quick or easy, he said.

Does anyone remember how that turned out? Sweet Fancy Moses, I thought if any former president understood blowback, it would be Bill Clinton. Keep ignoring the backseat drivers, Mr. President.

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Reader Interactions

329Comments

  1. 1.

    ruemara

    June 13, 2013 at 6:39 pm

    Let the excoriations for anything being remotely positive begin. That bit of snark over, I’d be much, much happier if people who demanded we enter wars, having to take the first step onto the battlefield.

  2. 2.

    Redshirt

    June 13, 2013 at 6:39 pm

    Bill should shut up, cuz frankly, lately, he’s making me start to doubt supporting Hillary if she runs.

    We’ve got NO business in Syria. If action must be taken, then do it 90’s style (right Bill?) and get the UN on board and in nominal charge of any operation. That means Russia and China on board.

  3. 3.

    Baud

    June 13, 2013 at 6:40 pm

    Shit. I thought he was trolling McCain when first heard about it. Is there actual audio?

  4. 4.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    Not to be too harsh to Betty Cracker here, because I agree with her general sentiments, but WTF? We are going to blame Clinton and McCain for this disastrous boondoggle?? Last time I looked, Barack Obama was President and CiC. If this happens, there is no freaking way this shouldn’t be laid at his feet and his alone.

  5. 5.

    Alexandra

    June 13, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    I’d like Hillary Clinton to run and win, but I’d be lying if I said that I didn’t have any concerns. If she won, I can imagine her presidency being a little like Bush I, losing after one term.

  6. 6.

    joes527

    June 13, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    I thought if any former president understood blowback, it would be Bill Clinton

    blowback … blowjob …. eh. Close enough

  7. 7.

    RP

    June 13, 2013 at 6:43 pm

    @longtime lurk: What are you talking about?

  8. 8.

    Betty Cracker

    June 13, 2013 at 6:44 pm

    @longtime lurk: Nope. If Obama decides to get us embroiled in the Syrian civil war, that will be his decision, and I will think it sucks. I hope he continues to ignore the backseat drivers.

  9. 9.

    PsiFighter37

    June 13, 2013 at 6:46 pm

    Stupid comment by Clinton. He should know better, but he never will pass up an opportunity to puff something he did favorably to what someone else is doing.

    I will say that Obama saying something to the extent of a ‘red line’ was a mistake, especially if it’s one he ad-libbed. The shit that’s going down in Syria is pure sectarian violence at this point. The Christian minority (and, if I recall, our country is still majority Christian) is fighting for Assad. The rebels (mostly Sunni) are massacring Shiites and doing some really barbaric things. Both sides are way in the wrong, but from what I can tell, it’s going to devolve into a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. I don’t think that really cleanly serves our interests in either one way or another.

    There’s also no way we’re going to negotiate a peace treaty. These people are killing each other over religious beliefs formed nearly 1500 years ago…that kind of shit is not going to stop overnight, much less anytime soon. It’s a really crappy situation, because there are an awful lot of innocent people getting killed…but that is (I would say, ironically, in my uneducated view), all things being equal, less likely to happen under Assad. But it may be too far into the conflict to make a difference – both sides are in far too deep.

    It’s a complex situation because there’s no international consensus, at all, about what to do, and there’s nothing that a body like the U.N. can do, and there’s nothing that obviously serves our self-interest.

  10. 10.

    Emma

    June 13, 2013 at 6:47 pm

    @longtime lurk: What disastrous boondoggle? The fact that we haven’t jumped into yet another damn war in the one area of the world where, except on one or two occasions, we have pretty much screwed everything?

  11. 11.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 6:48 pm

    Rule One of Modern American Foreign Policy:

    John McCain Always Wants Another war

    Rule One b:

    So does Lindsay Graham

    Rule Two:

    John McCain Is Always Wrong

  12. 12.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 6:48 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    Glad to hear it. I wish the same could be said for the rest of the crew around here, but I’m not optimistic. I can already see the blame deflectors being erected…

  13. 13.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 6:50 pm

    @Emma:

    You should probably read the news: “…in a major policy shift, President Obama has decided to supply military support to the rebels, the White House announced Thursday.”

  14. 14.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    Firstly, fuck BooMan. Hard to find any writer outside of thepeoplesview who takes a more sycophantic slant on every possible occasion.
    This whole “red line” business was bonanza from the first second it was uttered as official policy.

  15. 15.

    SatanicPanic

    June 13, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    @longtime lurk: It’s always the same with Oblamer, right?

  16. 16.

    rda909

    June 13, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    From the Politijoke article…
    “Clinton told McCain during an event for the McCain Institute for International Leadership in Manhattan Tuesday night. “Sometimes it’s just best to get caught trying, as long as you don’t overcommit — like, as long as you don’t make an improvident commitment.”

    WTF is the McCain Institute, and WhyTF would Billy Jeff think it would be good to appear there with the guy who picked Sarah Paylin as his running mate and is wrong about almost everything. I mean, McCain and Lindsay were having dinner with Mommar Qadafi (setting up the Benghazi attack perhaps?) and advocating for the U.S. to sell more weapons to Mommar after that meeting in 2009. Thankfully President Obama ignored him then too, and helped set up the conditions for Libyans to rid themselves of their oppressive and clinically insane dictator. Billy Jeff is siding with these losers!?!?

    Well then, please proceed Billy Jeff. At least you’ll end this crazy Hillary 2016 nonsense. Keep talking, buddy!

  17. 17.

    Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)

    June 13, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    If I were Obama, I would task a staffer with calling McCain’s office every morning to speak to Grandpa Walnuts with the simple message: “You lost.”

    Alternatively, deliver a postcard to his Senate seat every day he’s there.

  18. 18.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 6:56 pm

    @SatanicPanic:

    I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean. Do you support the US entering the Syrian civil war? Or are you saying you don’t support it, but it’s not Obama’s fault?

  19. 19.

    SatanicPanic

    June 13, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    @longtime lurk: I’m saying I don’t think it will happen and I don’t think Obama has the blaming problem that the right is always accusing him of

  20. 20.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 7:00 pm

    @SatanicPanic:

    So CBS News (and other news organizations) are lying when they say: “…in a major policy shift, President Obama has decided to supply military support to the rebels, the White House announced Thursday.”?

    Or does “supply[ing] military support” mean something other than intervening in a war?

  21. 21.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 13, 2013 at 7:00 pm

    I saw this earlier today. Two bitter old men from 2008 getting together to complain about That One. Fuckin’ Bubba can’t decide if he’s owed Hillary’s presidency, or if making her lose it proves he’s the smart Clinton.

  22. 22.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 7:00 pm

    @Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS):

    Send him a horse’s head to go with the horse’s ass provided by God-Emperor Self-Elect McCain.

  23. 23.

    PsiFighter37

    June 13, 2013 at 7:00 pm

    @Corner Stone: BM takes a pretty realpolitik view of things. Calling him sycophantic is BS on your part…speaking from knowing him personally and reading his blog since he founded it.

  24. 24.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    I just hope Obama remembers the wise words of a rising political star who said:

    “I don’t oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war.”

  25. 25.

    Warren Terra

    June 13, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    Given that I don’t see a serious alternative to her, and that she seemed to be extremely capable (and not unduly craven or bellicose) as SecState, I’d really like to see reasons to feel any sort of enthusiasm for Hillary Clinton’s likely candidacy. Bill’s asinine comments about Syria do quite the opposite, but they do present a tremendous opportunity for her to really score some points, if she were to distance herself from him – not too strenuously, not some Sister Souljah BS, just to make it clear that while she values his experience she is her own leader, and is a leader too savvy to put American prestige and likely American kids on the line in a highly uncertain and morally complex conflict in the Levant.

  26. 26.

    SatanicPanic

    June 13, 2013 at 7:03 pm

    @longtime lurk: We’ll see what this actually turns out to mean

  27. 27.

    Slugger

    June 13, 2013 at 7:03 pm

    Not Kosovo, this reminds me of Clinton’s brilliant play in Somalia. Bring back BlackHawk Down! Mr. Clinton, are you out to prove Randy Shugart’s father right when he refused to shake your hand at his son’s Medal of Honor presentation?
    Canwe ask these prepubescent children to go outside and play when the grownups talk about serious stuff like war and bombing and shit?

  28. 28.

    cathyx

    June 13, 2013 at 7:04 pm

    I ran into an acquaintance last night whose son is in the military. He is being prepared to deploy to the Asian area of the world. She said that there has been a sudden and intense troop buildup at the bases and the army is ramping up it’s presence in Asia. She thinks it has to do with North Korea.

  29. 29.

    PsiFighter37

    June 13, 2013 at 7:05 pm

    @Warren Terra: Because she’ll be the first female president (most likely) if she runs?

    It’s kind of hard to say, because although she was part of Obama’s cabinet, she was basically persona non grata in politics the entire time. I guess it makes the heart grow fonder, but I don’t recall her having any real standout moments in the Senate. Heck, I’d argue that her replacement (Gillibrand) is quite a bit better than she was as a senator.

    Speaking of which, if Hillary decides not to run, I would be down for Gillibrand 2016.

  30. 30.

    Baud

    June 13, 2013 at 7:05 pm

    @longtime lurk: @SatanicPanic:

    That was my question. Does military support mean gas masks to protect against chemical attacks, or offensive weaponry, or something else? Things are still a little vague.

    ETA: At least in the few reports I’ve seen.

  31. 31.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 7:06 pm

    @PsiFighter37: Tell him I said he can get off his knees any time he feels like it. Oh, and that I said Hi.

  32. 32.

    JWL

    June 13, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    Good words from both of you, BC.

    It astonishes me how many prominent democrats have learned absolutely nothing from the Vietnam and Iraq War great tragedies, the infamous debacles.

    But it shouldn’t.

    Hell, Hillary lacked the simply decency to acknowledge her ambition-fueled blunder, much less ask forgiveness for it.

    And, of course, she was appointed Secretary of State.

    There is a difference between the two parties. But it does not spring from the democratic party leadership.

  33. 33.

    Mandalay

    June 13, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    Does anyone remember how that turned out?

    I roll my eyes whenever I read this being offered as an argument for or against any complex issue.

    Here’s how it goes:
    1. Propose something: we should do X.
    2. Cite Y where things went badly.
    3. Drop the zinger: Anyone remember how Y worked out???!!!
    4. Fold arms and lean back with a smile, satisfied that if things went badly for Y then it is an irrefutable argument for rejecting X.

    It’s just such a lazy, empty, superficial argument.

  34. 34.

    Baud

    June 13, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    @cathyx:

    She thinks it has to do with North Korea.

    Hmmm. Last few news articles I’ve read suggested that tensions had eased.

  35. 35.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 7:08 pm

    @PsiFighter37:

    I’ve never quite been able to forget this Onion article:

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/clinton-declares-self-president-for-life,191/

    In a test of the new regime’s power outside the nation’s capital, Senator-Elect Hillary Clinton, rechristened “Bride of The Lord Clinton On Earth,” summarily ordered HUIAD troops to fire on Manhattan crowds, leaving more than 2,500 dead on Wall Street and quickly dispersing protesters loyal to defeated Republican challenger Rick Lazio.

  36. 36.

    Betty Cracker

    June 13, 2013 at 7:08 pm

    @longtime lurk: We’ll have to see what that means. Personally, I think anything other than humanitarian aid is a mistake. McCain was in front of the cameras today denouncing Obama for being insufficiently war-mongery and demanding no fly zones and heavy weaponry, so there’s that.

  37. 37.

    Suffern ACE

    June 13, 2013 at 7:09 pm

    Yes. If only we had paid more attention to Afghanistan. Or tried harder to pick a winner. Yeah. That’s where we went wrong.

  38. 38.

    Maude

    June 13, 2013 at 7:10 pm

    @ruemara:
    Bill Clinton was offered the opportunity to go fight in Viet Nam. He turned it down with false promises to do ROTC.

    @Warren Terra:
    It’s way too early for 2016. A lot can happen before then.

  39. 39.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 7:10 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    Is McCain sure he isn’t posing with the wrong group of people this time?

  40. 40.

    PsiFighter37

    June 13, 2013 at 7:10 pm

    @Corner Stone: And I’m going to tell you that you can go fuck yourself like the worthless piece of shit you are. Kthxbai.

  41. 41.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 7:10 pm

    Just so I am clear, is it worse that Bill Clinton suggested he thinks interaction may be warranted, or is it worse that the actual POTUS appears to be ramping up for involvement in Syria?

  42. 42.

    Trollhattan

    June 13, 2013 at 7:11 pm

    The Beeb:

    Syrian forces under President Bashar al-Assad have used chemical weapons “on a small scale” against the opposition rebels, the White House has said. A senior aide to President Barack Obama said the US estimated 100-150 people had died in “multiple” attacks.

    Ben Rhodes said the US president had decided to provide unspecified “military support” to the opposition.

    “Our intelligence community now has a high confidence assessment that chemical weapons have been used on a small scale by the Assad regime in Syria. The president has said that the use of chemical weapons would change his calculus, and it has.”

    Compare and contrast, with presidents McCain and Graham.

    Republican Senators John McCain and Lindsay Graham, who have been particularly strident in their calls for military aid, said the finding must change US policy in Syria. They called for further action, saying US credibility was on the line.

    “A decision to provide lethal assistance, especially ammunition and heavy weapons, to opposition forces in Syria is long overdue, and we hope the president will take this urgently needed step,” they said in a joint statement.

    “But providing arms alone is not sufficient. The president must rally an international coalition to take military actions to degrade Assad’s ability to use airpower and ballistic missiles and to move and resupply his forces around the battlefield by air.”

    Ka-Boom!

    Given the very recent Sunni-Shia slaughter, my money’s on any “military aid” being very limited and carefully parceled out. If McCain’s still yellin’ then we’ll know it’s probably being done correctly.

  43. 43.

    Maude

    June 13, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    @cathyx:
    We are not going to war again with North Korea.
    Read about that war before you say things like this.

  44. 44.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    @Baud:

    A good question, but the early reports indicate arming and training rebels in Jordan, along with a “no fly zone”, which means bombing and missile sorties into Syria. And that’s just until it proves ineffective and then we have to protect our “credibility” by getting in deeper, etc.

    On the positive side, it takes the NSA news off the front page!

  45. 45.

    El Cid

    June 13, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    Do people really imagine that if under Reagan we had ‘stayed’ and ‘committed ourselves’ to Afghanistan that (a) it would have lasted long, (b) it would have turned out well, (c) we were wanted, and (d) there was any evidence that we knew how to do anything other than hire cutthroats to kill for us?

    Where is this imaginary nation-state (pleeeeease do not bring up post-war Germany & Japan) where our expertise in helping them develop worked?

    Whose imagination has really managed to realistically construct an Afghanistan in which a beaming Father Reagan showed up to witness his happy, stable, smoothly functioning offspring?

    Where is the tiniest bit of evidence that any of our policy was motivated by giving a shit about what the people inhabiting the space of Afghanistan experienced versus typical power interests of geography & resources?

    What world is it that these people live in where they can say such things?

  46. 46.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    @PsiFighter37: You sound angry. I’m going to suggest you pick up some Taco Bell for dinner and spend the night writing some more My Little Pony slashfic as an outlet for your pain.
    Just suggesting that as a friend.

  47. 47.

    Betty Cracker

    June 13, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    @Mandalay: So there are never any lessons to be learned from prior clusterfucks. Got it.

  48. 48.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 7:15 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    You have to remember that only Mandalay’s knowledge can possibly guide us to right thought. If he could only remember the password to the super-secret vault in which he stored it….

  49. 49.

    Svensker

    June 13, 2013 at 7:16 pm

    He compared Syria with Afghanistan when that country was fighting the Soviet Union in the 1980s

    It IS similar — al Qaeda and associated groups are fighting Assad, just as they were fighting the govt/Soviets in Afghanistan. And look how well arming al Qaeda turned out for us back then!

    What is wrong with these people?

  50. 50.

    Tom W.

    June 13, 2013 at 7:18 pm

    Bill was just running interference for a policy he’d already been briefed in on – colorfully, of course.

    Their policy views are exactly the same, to the millimeter.

  51. 51.

    Hal

    June 13, 2013 at 7:19 pm

    80% of the public says no to a war in Syria, and Bill Clinton’s response is to ignore it because, hey, he really regrets Rawanda.

    This is my one hesitation on a Hillary Clinton admin. I’m already seeing the increasingly skeletal Carville on TV, and I’m sure Lani Davis is waiting in the wings. Pretty soon we are going to get the Hillary camp that has been waiting since 2008 to start speaking up, and part of their comments are going to be “Hey, if you were disappointed in Obama, don’t worry, Hillary will be so much better. Stick around awhile longer.”

    I like Hillary, but I really hope she jettisons her old campaign folks for newer, younger blood. I see in part a generational gap between Obama, McCain, and Clinton, with the latter two still very fond of military intervention wherever, whenever.

  52. 52.

    Baud

    June 13, 2013 at 7:19 pm

    @longtime lurk:

    early reports indicate

    Do you have a link? McCain was talking about all that shit, and it’s possible that the media is speculating (it would be irresponsible not to), but I haven’t seen anything official.

    On the positive side, it takes the NSA news off the front page!

    And the NSA news took Benghazi off the first page! Can’t wait to see what takes Syria off the front page.

  53. 53.

    Chyron HR

    June 13, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    POTUS appears to be ramping up for involvement in Syria

    That’s a pretty circuitous way of saying he hasn’t actually done anything you can object to.

    Never mind, though, let’s get started rehashing every failed prediction/accusation about Libya. He’s only invading to take their oil! Ten year occupation! BOOTS (or some sort of footwear) ON THE GROUND!

  54. 54.

    burnspbesq

    June 13, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    As soon as somebody comes up with some mode of intervention that is unambiguously bad for Assad, and unambiguously good for everybody else in the region, and can be done at a cost of $1.97 or less and no U.S. casualties, I’ll be in favor of intervention. Until then …

  55. 55.

    Bobby Thomson

    June 13, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    @Mandalay: yeah! Like those dumb ass scientists with their dumbass scientific method amirite?

  56. 56.

    bergman

    June 13, 2013 at 7:21 pm

    Very little of what was reported is true. the wuss comments and the afghan comments came without any mention of syria. there was no criticism of obama. he did say that he agreed that doing nothing in Syria is a bad idea, but made sure that he didn’t advocate boots on the ground, etc.

  57. 57.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 7:21 pm

    @burnspbesq:

    Cut the cost of the policy by 99.5% and I am with you.

  58. 58.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 7:21 pm

    @burnspbesq:

    Cut the cost of the policy by 99.5% and I am with you.

  59. 59.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 7:23 pm

    @Baud:

    Story with the most detail was on WSJ. Sorry, no link because it now appears to be paywalled though it wasn’t before.

  60. 60.

    Baud

    June 13, 2013 at 7:23 pm

    @bergman:

    Interesting. That’s why I wanted to hear the audio. I don’t trust our media when it comes to reporting on Democrats.

  61. 61.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 7:24 pm

    @Chyron HR:

    Hah. Pollyanna much?

  62. 62.

    Suffern ACE

    June 13, 2013 at 7:24 pm

    @Tom W.: really? The talking points included calling Obama a wuss?

  63. 63.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 7:26 pm

    @Baud:

    Actually, here it is. Unpaywalled in the “India edition” of all places.

  64. 64.

    Betty Cracker

    June 13, 2013 at 7:26 pm

    @Corner Stone: Can’t speak for anyone else, but I think Clinton’s remarks were dumb, and becoming embroiled in a civil war between factions led by fanatics would be tragic as well as stupid. I think Obama is wiser than that. At least, I hope so.

  65. 65.

    Mandalay

    June 13, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    So there are never any lessons to be learned from prior clusterfucks. Got it.

    Not at all. But merely citing the outcome for one complex scenario is not an argument for or against another complex scenario. For example….
    – Gee, I really hope Clinton runs in 2016…
    – Oh yeah? How did that work out for you in 2008? Zing!
    Mindless, right?

    And we can play the game however it suits us…
    – Gee, I really hope we don’t get sucked into a Syria clusterfuck….
    – Oh yeah? How did that work out for you in Rwanda? Zing!
    Equally mindless, right?

    “How did that work out for you?…” is just a meaningless zinger for complex issues.

  66. 66.

    Maude

    June 13, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    @Trollhattan:
    There won’t be a no fly zone. That’s from the WH.
    McCain will be screaming.

  67. 67.

    Baud

    June 13, 2013 at 7:31 pm

    @longtime lurk:

    Hmm. That article talks about a “proposal.” US WSJ has an unnamed source that says US will “provide arms to moderate rebels” (?) and a named source that says he won’t discuss the scope and scale of support to be provided.

  68. 68.

    burnspbesq

    June 13, 2013 at 7:31 pm

    @NickT:

    Cut the cost of the policy by 99.5% and I am with you.

    That’s going to be tough. If you allocate the salary and benefits cost of the aide who writes the sternly worded email, and add an allocation of internet access fees, you’re already at over $1.35.

  69. 69.

    bergman

    June 13, 2013 at 7:32 pm

    @Baud:

    I’ve heard it all and seen the entire transcript. I’m not faulting anyone for forming opinions, it’s just that the media pounced on it as a beltway conflict and played up that angle. ABC calls it ‘Clinton criticizing Obama’ and if you read the whole thing, it’s nothing of the kind. Here’s the ‘staying in Afghanistan part:

    “when President Reagan was in office, got an enormous influence and gratitude helping to topple the Soviet-backed regime, and then made the error of not hanging around to cash in on our gains, and make good things happen for them, and remind them that democracy was majority rule and minority rights.”

    and that’s it about afghanistan.

  70. 70.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 7:33 pm

    @Maude:

    link?

  71. 71.

    cathyx

    June 13, 2013 at 7:33 pm

    @Maude: You really need to improve your reading skills before you comment. Please reread what I wrote, and maybe reread it again for good measure.

  72. 72.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 7:34 pm

    @burnspbesq:

    We can’t afford that. Sternly worded emails will only increase our unsustainable deficit and make us slaves to China. Much better to go with the full-on invasion and pay for it by butchering granny for cat-meat which the poor can then pay for by selling their spare kidneys.

  73. 73.

    Davis X. Machina

    June 13, 2013 at 7:34 pm

    Both sides are way in the wrong, but from what I can tell, it’s going to devolve into a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. I don’t think that really cleanly serves our interests in either one way or another.

    I suspect when the smoke clears and the historians get to work we’ll see a number of missed possibilities.

    There may have been a time when it might have been possible to do some good in Syria, and in Turkey and Jordan, to grease the skids under Assad, or to steer help to some opposition forces, and away from others, but that ship has sailed.

  74. 74.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 7:35 pm

    @bergman:

    That’s still a pretty alarming set of beliefs about our capacity for turning Afghanistan into Iowa with more beards and goats.

  75. 75.

    ChrisNYC

    June 13, 2013 at 7:35 pm

    @Tom W.: My bet is Clinton said it at the behest of Israel. To drum up both public and congressional support. To get the intervention idea out thru a much more appealing party than McCain. Huge news in Israel, Clinton’s saying this, judging by their papers. HUGE. I don’t doubt that he knew about the WH chem attack stuff but that probably played more into his timing than his motive.

  76. 76.

    lojasmo

    June 13, 2013 at 7:35 pm

    @longtime lurk:
    Considering that you need to construct a strawman to pre-indict the blah in chief, I don’t think you have a ton of credibility detracting the “deflectors.”

  77. 77.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 7:36 pm

    @lojasmo:

    What strawman would that be?

  78. 78.

    Mnemosyne

    June 13, 2013 at 7:37 pm

    @longtime lurk:

    And that’s just until it proves ineffective and then we have to protect our “credibility” by getting in deeper, etc.

    Yes, remember how we got bogged down in Libya? How many troops do have on the ground in Libya right now, again?

    Wait, let me guess — BENGHAZI! WORSE THAN WATERGATE!

  79. 79.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 7:38 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Oh, I see. Syria and Libya are exactly the same!

    I suppose you support this, then?

  80. 80.

    Baud

    June 13, 2013 at 7:38 pm

    @NickT:

    We could outsource the writing of the sternly worded email to a private contracting firm. It will cost about 10 times as much, but by leveraging the efficiency of the private sector, it will help reduce the deficit in the long run.

  81. 81.

    bergman

    June 13, 2013 at 7:39 pm

    @NickT:

    i don’t disagree although not sure I’d use the same terms to describe it.

  82. 82.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 7:39 pm

    @Baud:

    I am seeing some unpaid intern potential here.

  83. 83.

    Maude

    June 13, 2013 at 7:40 pm

    @cathyx:
    Stop repeating stupid stuff people you know say to you.

  84. 84.

    lojasmo

    June 13, 2013 at 7:40 pm

    @longtime lurk:

    Following on the credible evidence that the regime has used chemical weapons against the Syrian people, the President has augmented the provision of non-lethal assistance to the civilian opposition, and also authorized the expansion of our assistance to the Supreme Military Council (SMC)

  85. 85.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 7:40 pm

    As far as I can tell there are few, if any, good guys in the Syria conflict. Outside agencies with their own agendas have enlisted on both sides for their own reasons. The people of Syria are caught in the tragic middle and 93,000 of them have died. The urge to do something is humane. It also ignores the experience of post war Iraq where the overthrow of a brutal but secular government opened the door to sectarian violence that continues to this day. It also ignores the Pottery Barn rule.

  86. 86.

    Mnemosyne

    June 13, 2013 at 7:41 pm

    @longtime lurk:

    Oh, I see. Syria and Libya are exactly the same!

    Please present your evidence that Syria would be handled differently than Libya. An unsourced article in a Murdoch paper is not evidence of much of anything.

    ETA: Do I support sending more humanitarian aid, which is what your article says is being sent? Yes, I do. Why do you oppose sending more humanitarian aid?

  87. 87.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 7:42 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    Please, don’t mention the Pottery Barn in this context or tomorrow’s news will be wall-to-wall John McCain demanding air strikes against their jihadis.

  88. 88.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 7:42 pm

    @lojasmo:

    Well, that is full of weasel-words, but I think “augmented the provision of non-lethal assistance” means they are already providing non-lethal assistance and are now moving to providing lethal assistance. Happy to be wrong! But that isn’t what all the news stories are saying.

  89. 89.

    Baud

    June 13, 2013 at 7:42 pm

    @NickT:

    Interesting comment in a post about Bill Clinton. :-)

  90. 90.

    Suffern ACE

    June 13, 2013 at 7:43 pm

    @NickT: if you give me a tax write off, I’ll just use my phone and make a quick phone call. “Knock it off already!” And then hang up. .75c with a calling plan.

  91. 91.

    Villago Delenda Est

    June 13, 2013 at 7:44 pm

    Does anyone remember how that turned out?

    Um, didn’t something happen in New York and Washington oh, I don’ t know, about 12 years ago that was pretty much related to our rather reckless support of “Afghan Freedom Fighters” back in the 80’s?

  92. 92.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 7:45 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Jeebus! Just go read the top story on Google News, pick any major news source you like. Or don’t. I’m off to go do something that’s less depressing.

  93. 93.

    raven

    June 13, 2013 at 7:46 pm

    @longtime lurk: Oh please, stick around. You are soooo motherfucking interesting.

  94. 94.

    ChrisNYC

    June 13, 2013 at 7:47 pm

    I see this thing differently than a lot of people here. I can’t say I’m pro intervention. I was for Libya. But this is beyond my ken, the internal stuff, the global powers stuff.

    Anyway, it doesn’t seem at all to me that it’s the US “sticking its nose in.” There are already so many major countries involved here, in one way or another. We, like those other countries, are a major player in a global system and while it’d be nice to say, “Know what, you all handle this one,” that’s hardly a riskless choice, even putting aside deals/allies type stuff (ahem Saudi Arabia). I mean Israel threatening to blow up Russian arms shipments! That’s just the calming event that region needs, right? Just saying, it’s not “Oh noes if we set up a no fly zone we’re going to turn this into a total disaster — boots on the ground” and if we do nothing, well, 90K more Syrians get killed but not our business.

  95. 95.

    cathyx

    June 13, 2013 at 7:47 pm

    @Maude: So is part of the stupid stuff that she told me that there is a huge military buildup going on right now in that part of the world?

  96. 96.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 7:47 pm

    @Chyron HR:

    That’s a pretty circuitous way of saying he hasn’t actually done anything you can object to.

    It’s not a “way” of saying anything other than major outlets are reporting a shift in policy.
    But of course I have obviously said Obama is teh Debil. In fact, I’m rather surprised you didn’t use your patented re-commenting skills ™ and put words in my comment that no sane person could read into it.

  97. 97.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 7:49 pm

    @NickT:

    Please, don’t mention the Pottery Barn in this context or tomorrow’s news will be wall-to-wall John McCain demanding air strikes against their jihadis.

    Somebody should.

  98. 98.

    Mnemosyne

    June 13, 2013 at 7:51 pm

    @longtime lurk:

    Jeebus! Just go read the top story on Google News, pick any major news source you like. Or don’t. I’m off to go do something that’s less depressing.

    Hey, if you can’t back your shit up, that’s your own problem. Take your paranoid rants elsewhere.

  99. 99.

    Villago Delenda Est

    June 13, 2013 at 7:51 pm

    @Trollhattan:

    “A decision to provide lethal assistance, especially ammunition and heavy weapons, to opposition forces in Syria is long overdue, and we hope the president will take this urgently needed step,” they said in a joint statement.

    If the lethal assistance is first used on Gramps and Huckleberry Closetcase, to make sure it’s working, I’ll go along with this.

  100. 100.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 7:52 pm

    @ChrisNYC:

    You neglected to mention that Turkey is prepared to intervene in the north of Syria because of their concern that the Kurds living there may take advantage of the chaos to set up an independent Kurdish republic.

    To quote Laurel and Hardy, “Here’s another fine mess you’ve gotten me into.”

  101. 101.

    raven

    June 13, 2013 at 7:52 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Oh please don’t bring that little pipsqueaks sexuality into it, fuckers will be all up in arms.

  102. 102.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 7:53 pm

    @Betty Cracker: I’m actually waiting for context and a full transcript of WJC’s commentary. I’m also waiting to see what the Obama WH actually does, or does not do, in the way a Syrian escalation/intervention.
    Bill has a tendency to run off at the mouth, at length. And even though Hillary is no longer in the cabinet, I still believe Bill is a smart pol and would not have told a room full of press that Obama was a wuss.
    I guess we’ll see.

  103. 103.

    mclaren

    June 13, 2013 at 7:53 pm

    I don’t claim to understand all the facts and implications in the Syria situation, although obviously it’s a tragedy, and innocent people, including children, are being harmed and killed. That sucks.

    I claim to understand all the facts and the implicationsin the Syria situation. Syria for many decades was ruled by one of the most brutal and wily dictators in the Middle East, Hafiz Al-Assad, and when he died he turned Syria over to his son, an equally savage and wily individual whom daddy Hafiz had trained from birth to succeed him as dictator of Syria. When the shit hit the fan and the Arab spring erupted, you got total chaos and massive civil war in Syria, as usually happens when people try to overthrow brutal and wily dictators.

    The reason America will enter the Syrian civil war in a big way is equally simple and obvious. America is now the Forever War nation. Since the U.S. is now controlled by the military-police-prison-surveillance-torture complex, America must engage in eternal war forever, lest the ruling military-police-prison-surveillance-torture complex lose funding and therefore lose power.

    This means that as soon as one unwinnable foreign war winds down, America must immediately get involved in another unwinnable foreign war. The Iraq war wound down and now the Afghanistan war threatens to wind down (or at least so Obama has said), which puts America’s ruling military-police-prison-surveillance-torture complex in a state of crisis. If the wars stop, the vast river of gold stops flowing into the Pentagon and the military contractors and the congressional districts and the Army and the Navy and the Air Force and the Marine Corps, and that’s beyond catastrophic.

    So America will go into Syria in a big way. Massive invasion, huge military presence, many thousands of U.S. boots on the ground. The alternative would be a loss of funding for America’s ruling military-police-prison-surveillance-torture complex, which simply cannot be allowed to happen. The military-industrial parasite now controls the behavior of its host, in the same way that the toxoplasma gondii parasite controls the behavior of its hosts.

    Expect many more unwinnable foreign wars from now on. Each time one unwinnable foreign war ends, another one must begin. That’s life in the armed garrison state under what effectively amounts to martial law, formerly known as the United States of America.

  104. 104.

    Chris

    June 13, 2013 at 7:54 pm

    @PsiFighter37:

    Both sides are way in the wrong, but from what I can tell, it’s going to devolve into a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia

    The entire region’s been broken down into a cold war between Saudi and Iranian proxies (Sunni/Shi’a). That’s the big development of the last few years. Maybe not North Africa so much, but on the other side of the Suez Canal, for sure. It’s gotten to the point that Hamas (Sunni) is flipping the bird to Iran and Syria, its only big state supporters, while Iran and Hezbollah are backing Assad (Shi’a) despite his record unpopularity in the region.

    It’s already ugly, and unless I miss my guess it’s going to get worse.

    (The irony? Being on the Saudi/Sunni side de facto puts us on the same side as al-Qaeda).

  105. 105.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    June 13, 2013 at 7:54 pm

    Rand Paul stands up for Fourth Amendment freedoms.

    If honest liberals and leftists truly care about our civil liberties, they will stand with him, rather than being blind partisans and standing with those who see the Constitution as nothing but a piece of paper and our freedoms as disposable.

  106. 106.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    June 13, 2013 at 7:55 pm

    @mclaren:

    Exactly right. You nailed it.

  107. 107.

    raven

    June 13, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    Why in the fuck does the pie filter break just when the king of douche shows up?

  108. 108.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    Rand Paul opposed civil rights. If honest libertarians truly care about our civil liberties, they will stand with the American people, rather than being blind partisans and standing with those who see the Constitution as nothing but a piece of paper and minority freedoms as disposable.

  109. 109.

    raven

    June 13, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    @The Friendly Libertarian: Fuck both of you douche bags.

  110. 110.

    bergman

    June 13, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    He didn’t. The only thing true about it was that he said he agreed with McCain that we shouldn’t do nothing in Syria, especially when Russia, Hezbollah are involved. Not saying I agree, but you know who broke this, right? Maggie Haberman at Politico. Consider the source. And if you don’t think I know what I’m talking about, read more about Clinton tomorrow from John Harris (on another subject entirely) in the same rag. A long piece.

    I love Betty Cracker which is the only reason I’m commenting.

  111. 111.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    @raven:

    It takes a perverse pleasure in allowing the poor creature to display its intellectual limitations to an amused crowd.

  112. 112.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 7:59 pm

    @The Friendly Libertarian: And I agree with you. Exactly right. You nailed it. Also, too.

  113. 113.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    June 13, 2013 at 7:59 pm

    Noted liberal Juan Cole is standing with Rand Paul. Will you?

    http://www.juancole.com/2013/06/snowdens-disobedience-amendment.html

  114. 114.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 8:00 pm

    @raven: Hey! I’ve been commenting all fucking day amigo!
    I’m not just gonna be ignored here!

  115. 115.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 8:00 pm

    @mclaren:

    And if we stop creating people who hate our guts to the point that they’re willing to sacrifice themselves in asymmetrical warfare the rationale for the surveillance state will dry up. Can’t have that.

  116. 116.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:00 pm

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    Noted “libertarian” Ron Paul stood with Storm Front and accepted their cash. Do you?

  117. 117.

    raven

    June 13, 2013 at 8:01 pm

    @Corner Stone: You are not now, nor ever will be, on any pie list of mine.

  118. 118.

    ranchandsyrup

    June 13, 2013 at 8:01 pm

    @The Friendly Libertarian: your focus on civil liberties won’t get you to President Paul. There are other issues to be prioritized, balanced, etc.

  119. 119.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:02 pm

    @ranchandsyrup:

    Reality, for one.

  120. 120.

    askew

    June 13, 2013 at 8:04 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I saw this earlier today. Two bitter old men from 2008 getting together to complain about That One. Fuckin’ Bubba can’t decide if he’s owed Hillary’s presidency, or if making her lose it proves he’s the smart Clinton.

    Yep, that is it in a nutshell.

    It sounds like Obama is going to authorize military action without arming the rebels which is the smarter of the options. However, since Clinton opened his stupid mouth it now looks like Obama is doing Bill’s bidding.

    There is a good chance that Bill Clinton’s huge ego and petty jealousy will do in Hillary 2016 campaign before it gets off the ground.

  121. 121.

    ranchandsyrup

    June 13, 2013 at 8:04 pm

    @NickT: Heh. Well, there is that. For many, perception is reality.

  122. 122.

    bergman

    June 13, 2013 at 8:04 pm

    PS I know it’s boring and nobody cares and inside baseball, blah blah but honestly. Maggie Haberman. Politico. A ‘feud’ between the Clintons and Obama. And with a soupcon of Grandpa McCain! What could be juicier?

  123. 123.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:04 pm

    @ranchandsyrup:

    And it’s noteworthy that Baby Doc’s concept of civil liberties focuses remarkably heavily on aggrieved old white men and their fantasies of a happier past.

  124. 124.

    Chris

    June 13, 2013 at 8:06 pm

    @NickT:

    Rand Paul opposed civil rights.

    That really is all anyone needs to know about his bullshit “I’m the civil liberties candidate!” act.

  125. 125.

    FlipYrWhig

    June 13, 2013 at 8:06 pm

    @NickT: The “honest libertarian” is a species like the coelacanth. Every few eons one somehow emerges from the depths, but effectively they might as well be extinct.

  126. 126.

    ranchandsyrup

    June 13, 2013 at 8:08 pm

    @NickT: Politics of resentment. What else to expect from a self-certified “professional”?

  127. 127.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:09 pm

    @FlipYrWhig:

    I just wish they would come up with something more interesting than the same old dribble of dung from the same old white horse’s ass.

  128. 128.

    Mike E

    June 13, 2013 at 8:09 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Actually, and more specifically, the events you cite were done in reaction to US occupation in the land of Mecca and Medina.

  129. 129.

    Narcissus

    June 13, 2013 at 8:10 pm

    @Chris: My favorite Rand Paul moment was how he was so principally opposed to drone warfare. Y’know, unless somebody robs a convenience store or something.

  130. 130.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:11 pm

    @ranchandsyrup:

    Not to mention the racist, gold-buggering newsletter than his daddy never read nor wrote but simply profited by when it appeared under his name and signature.

  131. 131.

    askew

    June 13, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    @Tom W.:

    Bill was just running interference for a policy he’d already been briefed in on – colorfully, of course.

    Their policy views are exactly the same, to the millimeter.

    If by they, you mean Hillary and Bill, then you are right. If you mean Bill and Obama, you have no idea what you are talking about. Obama opposed the Iraq War and Bill supported it. That’s just 1 major difference between the two.

  132. 132.

    ChrisNYC

    June 13, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    @Narcissus: It was worse/better than that. Mr. civil liberties went directly to the most egregious example possible — “I’m in favor of using drones to go after some guy who stole 50 bucks from a liquor store!” Fantastic!

    You’re so SMART Rand!

    For an unlicensed opthamologist who rides on daddy’s coattails.

  133. 133.

    Mike E

    June 13, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    Everyone warns of us reaching Peak Wingnut; I think we just hit Critical DLCmass.

  134. 134.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    @ChrisNYC:

    Rand Paul not only has a vision problem, he is a vision problem.

  135. 135.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 8:16 pm

    @askew:

    It sounds like Obama is going to authorize military action without arming the rebels which is the smarter of the options. However, since Clinton opened his stupid mouth it now looks like Obama is doing Bill’s bidding.

    I’m kind of amazed for you. It seems you get stupider by the fucking day.
    “IF” President Obama authorizes upgraded military action then there will be absolutely no way he is “doing Bill’s bidding”.
    Stop copping out.

  136. 136.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    June 13, 2013 at 8:17 pm

    @mclaren: Oh, look. Little Miss Sunshine finally arrived.

  137. 137.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    Just something personal. I will sit out the election if Hillary Clinton is our candidate. Why? Because she lied about being shot at. I was shot at, often, during my service. Others in my unit were hit. That’s not something which you can be unsure about. Clinton lied about something that is to me a profound experience and she did it for momentary political advantage. To me, she’s a contemptible human being.

  138. 138.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 8:19 pm

    @askew: So you can tell us unequivocally now that President Obama will not escalate military involvement of the US in Syria?
    That seems like it would be a scoop, if true.

  139. 139.

    askew

    June 13, 2013 at 8:19 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Yes, remember how we got bogged down in Libya? How many troops do have on the ground in Libya right now, again?

    Yep, all of these same arguments were made about Libya about how it was a backdoor for an oil war. How we’d be there for 10 years, etc. Or how about how Obama was going to leave 10,000 troops in Iraq indefinitely, etc. Same people saying the same crazy stuff with no proof except that they know in their gut that Obama = Bush.

  140. 140.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 8:19 pm

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): Well now she did! Hello Sunshine!

  141. 141.

    Redshirt

    June 13, 2013 at 8:23 pm

    @mclaren: To correct but one point, Bashar was not groomed for leadership – the older brother, Bassel, was. He died in a mysterious car crash though. And so, Bashar.

  142. 142.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:24 pm

    Sarah Palin (remember her?) has gone crawling back to Fox:

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/06/13/palins-return-to-fox-echo-chamber-shows-failure/194458

    “The power of FOX News is unparalleled. The role of FOX News in the important debates in our world is indispensible. I am pleased and proud to be rejoining Roger Ailes and the great people at FOX.”

  143. 143.

    mouse tolliver

    June 13, 2013 at 8:24 pm

    A few days ago the rebels executed a 15-year-old boy for blasphemy. But on the bright side, most of us will probably be dead when the blowback causes 9/11 v. 2.0 a quarter century from now.

  144. 144.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 13, 2013 at 8:27 pm

    @NickT: Sarah Palin (remember her?) has gone crawling back to Fox:

    And Rupert and Wendi just announced their divorce. Is it irresponsible to speuclate…

  145. 145.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:27 pm

    @mouse tolliver:

    And Zombie McCain will of course demand that we invade Russia. We are, after all, all Georgians now.

  146. 146.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:28 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Well, let’s just say that no-one’s seen Todd for a while now….

  147. 147.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 8:29 pm

    @mouse tolliver:

    So I Googled it and that’s what the reports say. Clearly, the rebels deserve our support.

  148. 148.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 8:29 pm

    Does anyone have a link to the full transcript of what Bill Clinton said?
    Thanks

  149. 149.

    Hal

    June 13, 2013 at 8:29 pm

    I could be wrong, but I thought Obama’s arming of rebels had been under consideration for many months now?

    Political pressure aside, I’m going on a wait and see for this. From what I’ve read and heard reported, Obama has been bucking everyone from Clinton, to senior advisers on action in Syria.

    In the end, if he does make a decision, it will be his own, not Clinton, McCain or anyone else’s. I think Obama’s actions on Syria to date have proven that.

  150. 150.

    schrodinger's cat

    June 13, 2013 at 8:30 pm

    @Chris: Where does Pakistan fall on that spectrum.

  151. 151.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 13, 2013 at 8:31 pm

    Oh tasty Schadenfreude, oh scrumptious lovely love yum yum

  152. 152.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:31 pm

    @Hal:

    You have to remember that for the GOP Obama is simultaneously a demonic tyrant-genius and a weak,spineless impostor without a mind of his own who is incapable of speaking without a teleprompter.

  153. 153.

    Patricia Kayden

    June 13, 2013 at 8:31 pm

    @lojasmo: “What seems especially unlikely is that the Obama administration will bow to critics who charge that Obama must intervene in Syria or he risks losing ‘international credibility’ by not responding with sufficient force to Syria’s crossing of his red line.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/06/13/the-u-s-says-syria-has-used-chemical-weapons-now-what/

  154. 154.

    askew

    June 13, 2013 at 8:31 pm

    Just something personal. I will sit out the election if Hillary Clinton is our candidate. Why? Because she lied about being shot at. I was shot at, often, during my service. Others in my unit were hit. That’s not something which you can be unsure about. Clinton lied about something that is to me a profound experience and she did it for momentary political advantage. To me, she’s a contemptible human being.

    I can’t believe that hasn’t permanently sunk her career. She lied about it repeatedly and the media ignored it until Sinbad came out and said it was BS. That lie confirmed my opinion of Hillary completely lacking a moral core. Wasn’t it David Geffen who said that all politicians lie but the Clintons’s do it with such ease it is troubling. That’s the truth.

    I will work my ass off for any non-Hillary candidate in the primary and hold my nose for her if she wins in the general. But, she won’t get a penny or any volunteering from me.

  155. 155.

    pseudonymous in nc

    June 13, 2013 at 8:32 pm

    Intervention in Syria = decide which group you want to be ethnically cleansed, and back the group that’s going to do it.

    I’d like to see someone make that point to John McCain on any given Sunday.

  156. 156.

    bergman

    June 13, 2013 at 8:32 pm

    @Corner Stone: Yes, I do.

  157. 157.

    Chris

    June 13, 2013 at 8:33 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    On the Saudi side. Although they do have a history of going easier on Iran than most regional powers; it’s believed they’ve even proliferated nuclear technology to them.

  158. 158.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 8:34 pm

    @askew:

    But, she won’t get a penny or any volunteering from me.

    So you’d rather President Rand Paul then?
    Good to know!

  159. 159.

    MikeJ

    June 13, 2013 at 8:35 pm

    It’s time for Tico Tico in the Esther Williams movie on TCM.

  160. 160.

    cathyx

    June 13, 2013 at 8:35 pm

    Ladies, Rupert Murdock is going to be a single man soon.

  161. 161.

    burnspbesq

    June 13, 2013 at 8:36 pm

    @mclaren:

    I claim to understand all the facts and the implicationsin the Syria situation

    You should have stopped right there. Instead, you went on to comprehensively disprove your claim.

  162. 162.

    JoyfulA

    June 13, 2013 at 8:36 pm

    U.S. intervention in Syria would require assistance—air space, land space, approval, etc.—from Turkey, and the Turkish government is pretty busy right now with its own domestic upheaval.

  163. 163.

    askew

    June 13, 2013 at 8:37 pm

    Obama has authorized arms to rebels as part of new package according to Reuters’s twitter feed. Not thrilled about that. I would have preferred a no fly zone. Those arms are going to end up in terrorists hands.

  164. 164.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 8:37 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    I’ve been voting Democratic since 1968. If the party can’t produce a better candidate than Clinton then damn them to hell too.

  165. 165.

    Patricia Kayden

    June 13, 2013 at 8:37 pm

    @raven: Too funny!! I love the “let’s pre-blame Obama” for something that has yet to happen.

  166. 166.

    Comrade Jake

    June 13, 2013 at 8:37 pm

    Boehner is now saying it’s “past time” to end Assad’s regime. What an asshat.

    Obama really screwed up with this red line stuff. There’s really no good reason for us to jump into the middle of a nasty civil war.

  167. 167.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:38 pm

    @burnspbesq:

    Well, to be fair, anyone could have been completely wrong about pretty well-known facts about the boyhood and upbringing of Bashar al-Assad. Even a genius like mclaren.

  168. 168.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 8:38 pm

    @bergman: I actually meant a link I could click and read the transcript.

  169. 169.

    Mandalay

    June 13, 2013 at 8:39 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: Clinton lied about something that is to me a profound experience and she did it for momentary political advantage.

    Speaking of Clinton grabbing “momentary political advantage”, this is why I would never support her.

  170. 170.

    burnspbesq

    June 13, 2013 at 8:39 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    I’m not just gonna be ignored here!

    OK. You’re just as much of a feminine hygiene appliance as mclaren and that other guy. Happy now?

  171. 171.

    sherparick

    June 13, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    Yes, that Afghanistan thing has worked out so well for us. However, the 10,000 plus dead Americans (’98 East Africa embassy bombings, 2000 attack on destroyer Cole, 9/11, the Afghan War, and the Iraq War), as well as 100,000 wounded, plus the rough 1 million or so we have blown-up, shot, or spattered across these countless battlefields these last 15 years might dissent from Clinton’s rosy assessment.

    But in the Village, the VSPs are thirsting for war that other people will fight and die which will all work out so wonderfuly after a Friedman uint or two.

  172. 172.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: I’ve been shot at too.
    Probably still going to vote D in 2014 and 2016.

  173. 173.

    ChrisNYC

    June 13, 2013 at 8:40 pm

    @Corner Stone: The press release — oops — story at Politico has lengthy quotes. Closed press event. Luckily an “attendee” (codename: FPOTUS) taped it. ;)

  174. 174.

    Patricia Kayden

    June 13, 2013 at 8:41 pm

    @NickT: Hear hear!! I will stand with Rand Paul on absolutely nothing. I have no need to stand with racists and those who would deny civil rights to people who look like me.

  175. 175.

    Comrade Jake

    June 13, 2013 at 8:42 pm

    The thing with Hillary is that she’s likely to end up being to the right of Obama on a lot of shit. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll still vote for her, but I wonder if Biden wouldn’t end up being a heckofa lot more progressive.

  176. 176.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 8:42 pm

    @burnspbesq:

    Happy now?

    Yes. Thank you.
    Although, being a douchecanoe would have been preferable.

  177. 177.

    burnspbesq

    June 13, 2013 at 8:42 pm

    Here’s an idea.

    Why don’t we just pretend the Assad regime is a hockey team. Hockey teams cross the red line hundreds of times every game, and the worst thing that happens is the occasional throwing of a dead octopus.

  178. 178.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:46 pm

    @burnspbesq:

    Dunno, Cole might still be in mourning after the recent demolition of the Penguins. Maybe another sport would work better for him.

  179. 179.

    longtime lurk

    June 13, 2013 at 8:48 pm

    Just popping back in to say I love how this thread went from “Oh, shut up Troll, Obama hasn’t authorized military assistance to Syrian rebels and he won’t!!” to “Well, everyone knows this has been under consideration for a long time, and, besides, we’ve really got to do whatever it takes to get that evil Assad out of power in Syria!”

    too funny.

  180. 180.

    burnspbesq

    June 13, 2013 at 8:48 pm

    @Another Halocene Human:

    It’s a damn shame that the last sentence of that post is unlikely to be true.

  181. 181.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 13, 2013 at 8:49 pm

    @Patricia Kayden: Yes! It’s a wonderful game! Lost some friends in a facebook spat over Libya during the civil war. It was all arglebargle Hugo Chavez imperialism herpity derp. FFS.

  182. 182.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 8:51 pm

    That Kia commercial with Blake Griffin is just disgusting.

  183. 183.

    Patricia Kayden

    June 13, 2013 at 8:54 pm

    @Another Halocene Human: Surprised this hasn’t made the front page here yet. Too funny.

  184. 184.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 13, 2013 at 8:54 pm

    @Comrade Jake: Obama really screwed up with this red line stuff. There’s really no good reason for us to jump into the middle of a nasty civil war.

    Yeah, but Israel Is Real-ly shitting their pants right now, people. Entangling alliances, here we come!

    So far Obama’s track record with foreign interventions (what Bush was referring to when he lied “no nationbuilding” during his campaign) is much better IMO than Bill Clinton’s so Bill can stfu. Bill is a great salesman, I mean really great, but Obama is better at this effecting change shit. I just sit back and watch him.

  185. 185.

    mouse tolliver

    June 13, 2013 at 8:54 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: I wonder how many of the weapons we send them will be used to shoot 15-year-old blasphemers in the face while their parents are forced to watch?

  186. 186.

    burnspbesq

    June 13, 2013 at 8:54 pm

    @NickT:

    Dunno, Cole might still be in mourning after the recent demolition of the Penguins. Maybe another sport would work better for him.

    Dear Syria,

    We note with grave concern the presence of seven players in your offensive zone. Fix this now, or else a JSOC force comprised entirely of former Army and Navy lax-bros will be dispatched to camp out on your crease and rip your corners.

    Sincerely,

    Barry Hussein
    Head Coach, Team USA

  187. 187.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:55 pm

    http://www.thenation.com/blog/174783/glenn-greenwalds-epic-botch#axzz2W9CrDLgh

    Fogel points out that a widely read post to this effect called “Cowards” from the blogg Uncrunched—“What has these people, among the wealthiest on the planet, so scared that they find themselves engaging in these verbal gymnastics to avoid telling a simple truth?”—is “mostly wrong.” He says, “It looks like Greenwald and company simply misunderstood an NSA slide [see image at the top of this post for the slide] because they don’t have the technical background to know that ‘servers’ is a generic word and doesn’t necessarily mean the same thing as ‘the main servers on which a company’s customer-facing services run.’ The ‘servers’ mentioned in the slide are just lockboxes used for secure data transfer. They have nothing to do with the process of deciding which requests to comply with—they’re just means of securely and efficiently delivering information once a company has decided to do so.”

  188. 188.

    trollhattan

    June 13, 2013 at 8:56 pm

    Hey, this thread’s going great!

    When did President McCain launch the Tomahawks? I missed the top-of-the-hour headlines.

  189. 189.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 8:56 pm

    @burnspbesq:

    Battlegroup “Tebow” is now ready to deploy from its Massachusetts base once the sub-neural command “Spygate” is activated.

  190. 190.

    MomSense

    June 13, 2013 at 8:57 pm

    @raven:

    I just scroll on by them. My motto is don’t feed the trolls.

  191. 191.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 13, 2013 at 8:57 pm

    @burnspbesq: Question: why does mclaren post screeds on political blogs all day instead of editing Wikipedia:Physics or applying for grants or whatnot?

    Also, she-who-must-not-be-contradicted is oddly silent on AGW for a physicist. Most physicists I know pee their pants about that, that and nuclear proliferation, not trivial shit like politics and conventional warfare.

  192. 192.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 13, 2013 at 8:58 pm

    @trollhattan: He launches them from his pants.

  193. 193.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 8:59 pm

    @mouse tolliver:

    Call me old fashioned, but I don’t see how any good can come from shoveling more weapons into the region. All of the shoveling that we, and other actors have done so far hasn’t exactly resulted in a peaceful utopia.

  194. 194.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:00 pm

    @Another Halocene Human:

    From the rear exit missile launcher.

  195. 195.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 9:00 pm

    @NickT: Wow, a blog post from uncrunched.com called “cowards”!!
    That has the ring of authenticity I have been looking for in the world of rebuttal!
    Thank you! A thousand times thank you!

  196. 196.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 13, 2013 at 9:01 pm

    @burnspbesq: worst thing that happens is the occasional throwing of a dead octopus

    Is this actually a thing?

    Please help. I don’t speak Canadian.

  197. 197.

    schrodinger's cat

    June 13, 2013 at 9:02 pm

    I don’t know whether its the media or Clinton supporters, but they are doing what they did in 2008 again, they are anointing her as the nominee. A long time before the first primary is even scheduled.

  198. 198.

    MomSense

    June 13, 2013 at 9:03 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    I think there are a lot of Dems who will oppose her-myself included. For me the last straw was the robo-calls her campaign did in the NC primary warning people that if they had arrest warrants or parking tickets, etc they could be subject to fines and arrest if they showed up at the polls. I had spent two weeks registering people to vote and those calls spooked them.

    There were also the calls to college campuses giving them the wrong polling location..

  199. 199.

    MikeJ

    June 13, 2013 at 9:03 pm

    @Another Halocene Human: I don’t speak it either, but once upon a time a team somewhere needed to win 8 games so their fans threw octopi. I guess it worked.

    Meanwhile, Oakland and the FY are tied at 2 in the bottom of the 18th.

  200. 200.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:03 pm

    @Another Halocene Human:

    http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighborhoods/2012/05/hockey-fans-throwing-weird-crap-ice-city-city-breakdown/1992/

    The Phoenix Coyotes got an unexpected addition to their roster last Friday while battling the Nashville Predators: Somebody chucked a slimy, whiskered catfish onto the ice. A smiling puck-girl had to cart it off in her bare hands before play could resume.
    Turns out this kind of thing is fairly common in the world of hockey fandom. While Nashville shows its team pride with volleys of aquatic craniates, other cities celebrate their franchises with slabs of beef, dead octopi, or rubber phalluses. So you know what to pack for your next hockey game, here’s a quick guide to who throws what:

  201. 201.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    June 13, 2013 at 9:05 pm

    @burnspbesq: Because when they fail to cross the red line, we’ll have to blow the whistle for icing and stop the play for a face off.

  202. 202.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 13, 2013 at 9:07 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Fuckin’ Bubba can’t decide if he’s owed Hillary’s presidency, or if making her lose it proves he’s the smart Clinton.

    This.

  203. 203.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 13, 2013 at 9:09 pm

    @NickT: Ah ha ha ha, wow, I had no idea Real Muricca did this at hockey games. (Hockey is a cold climate sport, now get off my snowpile!)

    In Boston we just hocked lugies!

  204. 204.

    Svensker

    June 13, 2013 at 9:09 pm

    @pseudonymous in nc:

    Intervention in Syria = decide which group you want to be ethnically cleansed, and back the group that’s going to do it.

    Assad has always protected the Christians in Syria. The rebels will be unlikely to continue that and Syria will become yet another Middle Eastern country where Christians have had to flee. But the so-called Christian fundies here don’t care about that. Wonder why?

  205. 205.

    ChrisNYC

    June 13, 2013 at 9:10 pm

    @Corner Stone: Is a little English paper by the name of THE GUARDIAN a credible source?

    First story:

    But the Prism program renders that consent unnecessary, as it allows the agency to directly and unilaterally seize the communications off the companies’ servers.

    Current spin — “ummm maybe not; who really understands all this techy stuff, amirite?”:

    The Guardian revealed last week that seven technology companies – Google, Facebook, Skype, PalTalk, Microsoft, Apple and Yahoo – were involved in the Prism surveillance scheme run by the NSA.

    The Guardian understands that the NSA approached those companies and asked them to enable a “dropbox” system whereby legally requested data could be copied from their own server out to an NSA-owned system.

    And here’s the Greenwald (PBUH) himself, yesterday:

    Our story was the following: we have documents, a document, from the NSA that very clearly claims that they are collecting directly from the servers of these internet giants. That’s the exact language that this document used. We went to those internet companies before publishing and asked them, and they denied it, and we put into the story very prominently that they denied it. Our story is that there is a discrepancy between the relationship that these, that the private sector and the government has, in terms of what the NSA claims and what the technology companies claim. What is definitely true, and follow-up reporting by the Times has proven this, is that there have been all kinds of negotiations about back door access. They have agreements in all sorts of ways to share data with the government. I don’t think anybody knows at this point exactly what the nature of those arrangements are.

    “What is DEFINITELY true is nobody knows what the arrangements here are.”

    Also, “your story” Mr G said nothing about discrepancy. It said “direct unilateral access.”

  206. 206.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 9:10 pm

    @MomSense:

    Aw, geez. This leads me to wonder why Obama appointed her to his cabinet. He couldn’t have not known all this shit.

  207. 207.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:10 pm

    @Another Halocene Human:

    I think it would be worth starting a tradition of throwing Romneys onto the ice. Might as well get some use out of the slimy little critters.

  208. 208.

    nineone

    June 13, 2013 at 9:11 pm

    I must have missed the part where Obama opened the floor for suggestions on what to do here. BC did well in his supporting role last year, and that is how I would prefer to remember him. So, unless he’s playing that role again he should take a cue from DubbaWubbaYew and STFU, or else it’s blue dresses and cigars for all my men.

    Damn, can’t anyone besides O-dawg do this politic thang anymore?

  209. 209.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 13, 2013 at 9:12 pm

    [redacted]

  210. 210.

    Keith G

    June 13, 2013 at 9:12 pm

    I wish we could have stayed out of of this. Now that we are involved, I think the only outcomes are terrible and fucking awful.

    Happy Flag Day! – tomorrow

  211. 211.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    @nineone:

    Remember how the Big Attention Hawg went around describing Mitt Romney’s sterling business career in the not-so-distant past?

  212. 212.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 13, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    @NickT: Love this:

    Robb complained of his ban: “People throw hats when they think they’re playing good. Why can’t we do something to show disapproval for what’s happened over the past 44 years — especially in my lifetime, 25 years of robbing us and lies?”

    Now that is what I call raw, unfiltered Canadian! (If you could distill it in crystalline form, Rob Ford might smoke it, is all I’m saying.)

  213. 213.

    MomSense

    June 13, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    Keep your friends close and your enemies closer?

    State was also a total wreck when she got there. They had lost a lot of personnel, moral was subterranean, and the previous admin had burrowed some really nasty characters. It was a nightmare job just dealing with the W wreckage.

  214. 214.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: How fucking dare you?!

  215. 215.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 13, 2013 at 9:14 pm

    @mclaren:

    I claim to understand all the facts and the implications in the Syria situation.

    Quoted for its humor potential. No one understands all the facts and implications of anything. A claim that one does is a proclamation of being delusional.

  216. 216.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 13, 2013 at 9:15 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: Keep your friend close, and your enemies…

    you know the rest

  217. 217.

    Bjacques

    June 13, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    If Obama’s smart he’ll use the evidence of gas to corral the Security Council into UN action. That’s how adults do it. Announcing willingness to provide materiel (AA AT weapons, e.g.) gives leverage. The only people who should come out on top in Syria are the civilians, when the war is shut down.

  218. 218.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    I’m old and I have nothing left to lose.

  219. 219.

    Emma

    June 13, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    @Hal: it has been on the table for a while, but I am just damn unhappy about this decision. Damn unhappy.

  220. 220.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Eh. Needs more dead Somali for that special Rob Ford flava (sorry to mention your future compatriots, Friendly Libertarian Who Is Hiding Under His Bed!).

  221. 221.

    Svensker

    June 13, 2013 at 9:17 pm

    @MomSense:

    State was also a total wreck when she got there. They had lost a lot of personnel, moral was subterranean, and the previous admin had burrowed some really nasty characters. It was a nightmare job just dealing with the W wreckage.

    I’m not doubting you, just curious how you know that. Do you have any links that might explain?

  222. 222.

    MomSense

    June 13, 2013 at 9:18 pm

    O/T but too awesome not to share.

    Dog butt looks like Jesus!

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/13/dog-butt-looks-like-jesus-photo_n_3436086.html

  223. 223.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:20 pm

    @MomSense:

    I just want to know what sort of person spends enough time staring at their dog’s asshole to notice this sort of thing.

    (Hush, John Cole, there are some things about you I don’t need to know!)

  224. 224.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 9:20 pm

    @ChrisNYC: Thank you.
    So someone said the person entered the room through the left door and then we learn that they really, in fact, used the left door of a double door entryway.
    This is what this all is. The NSA is doing this. Someone tell me they aren’t.
    Whether they are sticking their dick right into the empty bay of a server stack, or using RDP to get to the server.
    You people are stupid and you seem more and more ridiculous every time I see something like this.
    The NSA is scooping every mother fucking thing any US person ever did. They aren’t denying it.
    The tools saying it’s coming through the left door instead of the left side of a double door make me laugh my tiny little balls off.

  225. 225.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 9:23 pm

    @Bjacques:

    The only people who should come out on top in Syria are the civilians, when the war is shut down.

    In a perfect world, they would. This isn’t just about courageous rebels versus an evil dictator. Assad is clearly an evil dictator. The rebels are dominated by Islamic fundamentalist jihadis. The people of Syria will suffer no matter what the outcome.

  226. 226.

    scav

    June 13, 2013 at 9:23 pm

    Australia is sneaking in one hell of a week under the radar. OT The menu “leak” is old news by now and garden variety childish political venom and misogyny. Repeatedly asking your PM if her partner is gay because he’s a hairdresser is nearly par for the course shock-jock behavior (at least no one’s killed themselves yet over this one). A two-fer combining misogyny and homophobia. But a “Jedi Council” in the military sending out e-mail chains of imagery and abuse involving women including fellow servicewomen?

    Defence circles are shocked that the broader group of 107 men linked to the email chains include a Lieutenant Colonel, majors, captains, warrant officers and corporals, all allegedly participating while the reviews and ADFA scandal played out publicly.

  227. 227.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 13, 2013 at 9:24 pm

    @Corner Stone: The NSA is scooping every mother fucking thing any US person ever did. They aren’t denying it.

    Is this ha ha funny hyperbole? Because if not you might want to set up an appointment with a nice, friendly psychiatrist.

  228. 228.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:25 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Care to provide an image of a server stack bay?

  229. 229.

    Viva BrisVegas

    June 13, 2013 at 9:25 pm

    If Bill Clinton wants to do something useful, he could go and ask Turkey and Jordan what they need to handle the Syrian refugee crisis, and then deliver it.

    Or maybe take a fraction of what military action in Syria would cost and direct it to the UNHCR.

  230. 230.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 13, 2013 at 9:25 pm

    @scav: Misogyny and sexism in OZ? Color me shocked.

  231. 231.

    MomSense

    June 13, 2013 at 9:27 pm

    @Svensker:

    I just found this link. http://carnegieendowment.org/2007/07/03/manpower-failure-state-department-s-critical-personnel-shortage/mpz

    I have a lot of friends who were either at the State Dept or involved in some of the overlapping academic circles who work in conflict resolution and for humanitarian agencies.

  232. 232.

    Baud

    June 13, 2013 at 9:27 pm

    @MomSense:

    I wanted to scoff but I’m now a believer.

  233. 233.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 13, 2013 at 9:28 pm

    @scav: meh, like that’s going to top our armed service’s 26,000 unpunished rapes.

  234. 234.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 9:28 pm

    @Another Halocene Human: Because DNI Clapper and NSA Gen Alexander agree with you?
    Because they do not, in Congressional testimony.
    Sorry if that’s in the ha ha field for you, but your sense of denial is not with me.

  235. 235.

    MomSense

    June 13, 2013 at 9:28 pm

    @NickT:

    We know Cole didn’t take the photo–not blurry enough. Although his photos of late have been a little crisper.

  236. 236.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:29 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Still waiting for that image of a server stack bay.

  237. 237.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 9:29 pm

    @MomSense:

    That is freakin’ hilarious. How long until the dog shows up on EBay?

  238. 238.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 9:30 pm

    @NickT: It’s the open bay that has a spacer closing the opening and not an actual hard drive.
    Sorry to confuse you, but I thought since you were an IT specialist it wouldn’t take much deciphering.

  239. 239.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:30 pm

    @MomSense:

    Well, it can’t be Cole because that’s an image that’s recognizable as something. Not a particularly rewarding something to contemplate, unless you are Tim Tebow perhaps, but still recognizable.

  240. 240.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 9:31 pm

    @NickT:

    HERE

  241. 241.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 9:32 pm

    @NickT: You’re really getting uptight on this? You’re this fucking pedantic and stupid. You want a picture of what a server with an empty hard drive slot looks like?
    Ok, thanks.

  242. 242.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:32 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    That would be the server bay. The server stack is software. Server bay != server stack.

    You should know these things.

    Try harder, Cornie.

  243. 243.

    MomSense

    June 13, 2013 at 9:33 pm

    @NickT:

    Oh God NOOOO. I will talk about SnowdenBenghaziIRSNSAPrismSyriaDronez all day and night if only I don’t have to think about Tebow. My mom is usually super polite and refined but when she heard the news she said “fuck no”.

  244. 244.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:34 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    Now we can all wait for Cornie to try and figure out what those pretty pictures mean. Thanks, Mate.

  245. 245.

    Comrade Jake

    June 13, 2013 at 9:34 pm

    There actually are a few people posing some reasonable questions for Greenwald.

    Of course, he’s blocked them all. Because, you know, that’s just how journalists with integrity roll.

  246. 246.

    raven

    June 13, 2013 at 9:36 pm

    Game 4 is hotly contested.

  247. 247.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:36 pm

    @Comrade Jake:

    Well, you didn’t think that big things like THE TRUTH were going to be impeded by minor inconveniences like questions or facts, did you?

  248. 248.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 9:37 pm

    @NickT:

    Heh. You can find anything with a Google search. Unlike the old Inktomi.

  249. 249.

    scav

    June 13, 2013 at 9:39 pm

    @Another Halocene Human: We can compare rates — they also seem to have some long-term pedephilia issues to add weight to their side. Might be a close-fought battle, although they seem to be managing a few more reports and reviews, maybe.

  250. 250.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:39 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    I think that deserves a congratulatory LOL. Possibly even a ROFLMAO.

  251. 251.

    ChrisNYC

    June 13, 2013 at 9:40 pm

    @Corner Stone: Cornerstone, you’re completely lost on the BIGGEST LEAK EVER!

    The big story was “direct unilateral access” without the tech cos knowing. Now the Guardian says, “Well, actually more like lockboxes. Where information requested by the govt from tech companies pursuant to warrants can be left. Definitely that. Anyhoo, more details after our 3 pm trip to the Genius bar. Ta, Yanks!” And Greenwald says, “We were pointing out the discrepancies. Nobody knows the arrangements.”

  252. 252.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:41 pm

    @ChrisNYC:

    It’s almost as if Cornie doesn’t understand deep and complex technical issues like, say, the difference between hardware and software.

  253. 253.

    scav

    June 13, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Indeed, that’s one reason I’m not betting against them in the misogynist army stakes. The “Jedi Council” detail is a weird one. Entirely too much small boys in footed pajamas dreaming of heroism vibe.

  254. 254.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    @NickT: Just so I am clear for future reference, you’re saying that server stacks are exclusively software? I’d like to make sure I understand what it is you’re claiming, beyond my ignorance I mean.

  255. 255.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 13, 2013 at 9:45 pm

    @NickT:

    At my age all of my iron has transmuted into irony.

  256. 256.

    magurakurin

    June 13, 2013 at 9:46 pm

    @NickT:

    It also seems like this part of the introduction to the article was roundly ignored by its critic of its veracity and value

    People outside of the tech world absolutely need to know about this debate too, which is why, though I’m no expert, I’m sharing it with this wider audience. I deeply admire what Greenwald and his team at The Guardian are doing. I write in the interest of helping them do it better.

    nor this in the conclusion

    Greenwald has not yet made a public evaluation of whether or not he agrees that he made that mistake. He owes it to us to do so, with as much speed as practicably possible. It’s not too much to say that the fate of his broader NSA project might hinge on doing so effectively—because the powers that be will find it very easy to seize on this one error to discredit his every NSA revelation, even the ones he nailed dead to rights. (“It’s not like there aren’t legitimate things to complain about here,” as Fogel notes.) Such distraction campaigns are how power does its dirtiest work

  257. 257.

    Comrade Jake

    June 13, 2013 at 9:46 pm

    @Corner Stone: I think you’d be better served (pun intended), at this point, to ask if “direct access” can only mean one thing.

  258. 258.

    raven

    June 13, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    @Corner Stone: Shot at when?

  259. 259.

    ChrisNYC

    June 13, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    @NickT: Well it may not be that because I’m a bit hazy there myself. What I do understand is the fairly significant change in the story because I can read sentences and suss out when one is different than the other. :)

  260. 260.

    Baud

    June 13, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    NYT:

    The Obama administration, concluding that the troops of President Bashar al-Assad of Syria have used chemical weapons against rebel forces in his country’s civil war, has decided to begin supplying the rebels for the first time with small arms and ammunition, according to American officials.

    The officials held out the possibility that the assistance, coordinated by the Central Intelligence Agency, could include antitank weapons, but they said that for now supplying the antiaircraft weapons that rebel commanders have said they sorely need is not under consideration.
    ……
    But White House officials remain wary, and on Thursday Benjamin J. Rhodes, one of Mr. Obama’s top foreign policy advisers, all but ruled out the imposition of a no-fly zone and indicated that no decision had been made on other military actions.

  261. 261.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 9:48 pm

    @Comrade Jake: Ok. Can it?

  262. 262.

    muddy

    June 13, 2013 at 9:49 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: God is an iron.

  263. 263.

    Suffern ACE

    June 13, 2013 at 9:50 pm

    @scav: Jeebus. O.K. not so much shocked by the sexual abuse, but at what point could 13 year old join the army? (Back in the days when boys much younger could join the army).

  264. 264.

    magurakurin

    June 13, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    DEFINITION server stack Part of the Computing fundamentals glossary: A server stack is the collection of software that forms the operational infrastructure on a given machine. In a computing context, a stack is an ordered pile. A server stack is one type of solution stack — an ordered selection of software that makes it possible to complete a particular task.

    link

    Definition of:technology stack A set of software that provides the infrastructure for a computer. The stacks differ whether installed in a client or a server. Clients – The OS and Related Utilities The technology stack in a client machine includes the operating system and related support programs and all runtime environments necessary to run the applications, such as Java (see Java Virtual Machine). The stack may include the applications, although that is generally considered a separate “application stack.” The word “technology” implies system software, not application software. Servers Employ Services For servers, the stack includes all the programs mentioned for the clients with the addition of database software and support for several programming languages. If Web based, whether public or private, a variety of server software is included, such as Web server, mail server, FTP server and other “services” software.

    link

    its pretty easy to find out on one’s own what a term does or does not mean. Just another pointless argument. Just the same old shit day after day.

    Niagra Falls…slowly I turn, step by step…

  265. 265.

    muddy

    June 13, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    @NickT: This was my favorite part, I startled the dogs:

    we decided that it would only be worse if we went out and told the fans they were absolutely not allowed to throw dildos on the ice

    What more would they have done to make it worse? I’m boggling and giggling.

  266. 266.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:54 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Perhaps you should consider a basic course on how these intertoobz thingies work? You’ll be amazed at how much you can learn about this wide, wonderful world of ours – and you’ll embarrass yourself much less often in public.

  267. 267.

    raven

    June 13, 2013 at 9:54 pm

    @magurakurin: inch by inch

  268. 268.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:56 pm

    @magurakurin:

    Well, that should keep Cornie busy for the next year or so.

  269. 269.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 9:56 pm

    @magurakurin: Sorry, just like when I order a VODKA martini I always seem to get what I want, when I talk to someone about a bay in a server stack they always seem to know what I mean.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=server+stack+bay&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb#q=server+stack+bay&client=firefox-a&hs=ehK&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=A3i6UcfGD4m28wTViICIDw&ved=0CJoBELMY&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47883778,d.eWU&fp=526e3288e00321ce&biw=1280&bih=697

  270. 270.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 13, 2013 at 9:58 pm

    @magurakurin: @Corner Stone: Is this one of those things like clip vs. magazine that so infuriated gun nuts?

  271. 271.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 9:58 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Except, child, that what you have there doesn’t include (oh surprise!) a server stack bay, for reasons which have already been explained to you. Are you feeling especially masochistic in your exhibition of your own ignorance tonight?

  272. 272.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 9:59 pm

    What’s amusing to me, at least, is that this perfectly illustrates my point about people making the hard ass distinction between the “left door” and the “left door of a double door entry”.
    Bunch of pedants that have no actual rebuttal.

  273. 273.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: It’s indicative of something.

  274. 274.

    Omnes Omnibus

    June 13, 2013 at 10:01 pm

    @Corner Stone: I am unable to affirm those details on my own knowledge or even my own belief.

  275. 275.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 10:02 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    No, not remotely. Cornie is confusing hardware and software and creating a technically illiterate monstrosity out of that confusion, while bloviating in sheer ignorance about Glenn Greenwald’s misunderstanding of Snowden’s story – which looks a lot less convincing by the day.

  276. 276.

    ChrisNYC

    June 13, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    @Corner Stone: It’s good that this subject amuses you because people saying crap about the Clintons (above) makes you fly off the fucking handle. “Where is the transcript?! I DEMAND a transcript. Jackals and blasphemers! All of you!”

  277. 277.

    magurakurin

    June 13, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Here’s the deal, mate. You actually often bring valid points of view to the table, but you also always end being such a caustic asshole about everything that nobody can get past that to think about anything else. Any valuable discussion always seems to spin violent downward into a pointless and simply resolved question of semantics that you hold on to a like a bulldog with a rag in its mouth. I suppose it is endearing to some, but I suspect that those numbers are quite small indeed.

    but whatever wiggles your waggle. If nothing else you do appear to be enjoying yourself.

  278. 278.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 10:06 pm

    @ChrisNYC: I said I was waiting for a transcript. I’m sorry if that offends you somehow.

  279. 279.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 10:06 pm

    @magurakurin:

    From Asshole Jesus to Cornie’s Waggle. Truly, this thread is hurtling towards the apocalypse at considerable speed.

  280. 280.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 10:07 pm

    @magurakurin: How does what NickT keeps arguing “resolve” anything about NSA access?

  281. 281.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 10:07 pm

    @ChrisNYC:

    Well, knowing Cornie, he thought a transcript was the same thing as a transfusion.

  282. 282.

    Cacti

    June 13, 2013 at 10:07 pm

    Hillary’s complete lack of remorse over her Iraq war support was the primary consideration in keeping me from voting for her. It will also give me pause about supporting her in 2016 during Inevitability part 2: Electric Boogaloo.

    The Clintons have always been more hawkish than PBO, and Bill’s still bitter about Hill coming up short in ’08, so his remarks don’t surprise me.

  283. 283.

    ChrisNYC

    June 13, 2013 at 10:09 pm

    @Corner Stone: OMG it doesn’t offend me. It makes me laugh! Please proceed Cornerstone.

  284. 284.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 10:09 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    It clarifies the fact that your defense of Greenwald’s claims is based on massive ignorance of the key points at issue. That’s all it needs to do. The fact that it also handed you your ignorant ass is just gravy.

  285. 285.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 10:12 pm

    @NickT: You seem to be a pretty pedantic moron, and that’s fine. If you could possibly explain to us all how the NSA “does not” have access to our emails and phone records, as admitted by DNI Clapper and NSA boss Alexander?

  286. 286.

    magurakurin

    June 13, 2013 at 10:13 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    but no one is talking about the NSA’s access because you are stamping your feet telling everyone that a vodka martini and a server bay stack are the same thing…whatever the fuck that means. It’s like a Monty Python skit…and it seems that it just they way you like it because it happens time and time and time again.

  287. 287.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 10:13 pm

    @ChrisNYC: Now you’re just lying about me!
    *sobs*
    You’re just lying!!
    *boohoo*

  288. 288.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 10:15 pm

    @magurakurin: That’s interesting. Not true, but interesting. No one wants to answer the question about the NSA.
    Leave the ridiculous pedantry aside.
    The question is, does the NSA have access to our phone calls and emails, or not?

  289. 289.

    ChrisNYC

    June 13, 2013 at 10:15 pm

    @Corner Stone: And Cornerstone, really, I am so not laughing at you. It’s clear — or it seems — you really really like the Clintons. Good for you. It’s just reading your comments sometimes, I think, “Man, Cornerstone freaking LOVES those two.”

  290. 290.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 10:16 pm

    I’m going to get some Taco Bell. Please leave your answers about the NSA’s access below.
    Thanks

  291. 291.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 10:16 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Ah, I see. Somehow the fact you don’t understand the difference between hardware and software makes me “pedantic”. Never mind the fact that your whole argument has been set afire and rammed back into both of your assholes – the one you began the evening talking out of and the one ripped into you by the collective efforts of people on here who do know something about the topic under discussion.

    You don’t really understand how this fact-based argument thing works, do you?

  292. 292.

    LAC

    June 13, 2013 at 10:18 pm

    @trollhattan: lol! Apparently he and
    sec of state bill Clinton have brought the thunder to Syria.

  293. 293.

    magurakurin

    June 13, 2013 at 10:19 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    yes, with a FISA warrant, 1856 issued in 2012

  294. 294.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 10:20 pm

    @LAC:

    So, if McCain is Maverick, does that make Clinton Goose? Who gets to play Charlie?

  295. 295.

    Cacti

    June 13, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    @NickT:

    Obama is Iceman, the one who tells Maverick he’s dangerous and foolish.

  296. 296.

    LAC

    June 13, 2013 at 10:24 pm

    @NickT: I have said it before and I will say it again. If you have a dining room table, pour yourself a glass of wine and talk to it. Because corner stone and mcclaren are checked into the Johnny one note hotel and the “do not disturb ” sign is on the door.

  297. 297.

    LAC

    June 13, 2013 at 10:26 pm

    @NickT: remind me who Charles is again. :-)

  298. 298.

    JoyfulA

    June 13, 2013 at 10:34 pm

    @Svensker: A couple of hundred thousand Iraqi Christians fled to Syria not that long ago. I wonder where they can go now.

  299. 299.

    magurakurin

    June 13, 2013 at 10:36 pm

    @Cacti:

    So, Obama is gay?

  300. 300.

    Cacti

    June 13, 2013 at 10:41 pm

    @magurakurin:

    I just assumed everyone in Top Gun was gay.

    This was the Reagan-era military, so Charlie was Maverick’s beard.

  301. 301.

    Yatsuno

    June 13, 2013 at 10:42 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Oh dear Allah. You’ve been a judge barely two months. Please don’t tell me Fat Tony already assimilated you…

  302. 302.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 10:45 pm

    @LAC:

    Charlie was the cocker spaniel.

    Well, actually Charlie was Kelly McGillis, but she might as well have been a cocker spaniel when you consider how convincingly passionate her relationship with Maverick was.

    Back in the day, I knew a Scots guy who had this ritual of watching Top Gun every Sunday night. I never did figure out why.

  303. 303.

    Corner Stone

    June 13, 2013 at 10:46 pm

    @magurakurin: Ok, fair enough. Can we discuss the FISA court approvals? Is that a non-caustic topic we can put out there?
    Because there have been 11 rejections by the FISA court, total, since 1979.
    And my contention, and accept my apology for bringing this up, is that 11 “No’s” since 1979 should give all of us a great deal of pause.

    But, WTS, if we can agree to begin with that NSA has access to American citizens’ phone records and emails, then I will be happy to start this conversation from there.

  304. 304.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 10:50 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Define access. Define what you mean by “phone calls and emails”. Are you just talking about metadata here, or the actual content of said calls and emails? Under what conditions does the NSA have access to whatever it accesses?

    Start with those questions and provide your evidence for your contentions and let’s see how you do.

    While you’re at it, think how long the governement has had the capacity to tap phone lines and intercept mail.

  305. 305.

    Liquid

    June 13, 2013 at 10:55 pm

    Give McCain a rifle, one round, and point him at Benghazi.

  306. 306.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 10:57 pm

    @NickT:

    And while you’re at it, ask yourself this:

    How long has the government had the capacity to tap phone lines or intercept regular mail?

    What makes the current arrangements qualitatively different when it comes to civil liberties and or privacy?

  307. 307.

    LAC

    June 13, 2013 at 10:57 pm

    @NickT: ib that’s right! Lets see …Kelly ayotte?

    Btw if you are interested, ole corner stone has changed the goal posts again and is back from Taco Bell .

    I am curious how the Obama administration knows what is going on the ground of Syria. Wait…it couldn’t be intelligence, could it? That evil thingee that baby Jesus snowden will die for?

  308. 308.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 10:58 pm

    @Liquid:

    John McCain was last seen in Belgium, demanding answers from some puzzled customs inspectors…

  309. 309.

    Liquid

    June 13, 2013 at 11:00 pm

    @NickT: Free Association! — “Well, it’ll be the nineteenth century for me. One of Napoleon’s marshals. The chance to march across Europe with the greatest general of all time and kill Belgians. Marvellous.”

  310. 310.

    gian

    June 13, 2013 at 11:03 pm

    @NickT:
    Went to a minor league game this year. The team had fans bring and throw stuffed animals … they were given to charity after being thrown on the ice… people throw hats too (for a hat trick)

  311. 311.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 11:05 pm

    @LAC:

    You just wait until Cornie finds out about COINTELPRO. That’s going to be a day to remember.

  312. 312.

    magurakurin

    June 13, 2013 at 11:10 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    agreed. There does appear to be real problems with the transparency of the FISA court decisions. That they remain secret forever is a problem. I understand the idea that revealing certain facts can put an investigation in danger, but surely we should be able to look at 20 year old rulings. After a certain amount of time the public should be allowed to look at these rulings so that we can get some idea of what is being requested and decided.

    But no one in Congress really seems to have much of a problem with the whole thing. Not sure where a solution lies.

  313. 313.

    LAC

    June 13, 2013 at 11:26 pm

    @NickT: holy moly!!! Stop the press! Stop the press!

  314. 314.

    lojasmo

    June 13, 2013 at 11:30 pm

    @askew:

    There is a good chance that Bill Clinton’s huge ego and petty jealousy will do in Hillary 2016 campaign before it gets off the ground.

    One can hope.

  315. 315.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    June 13, 2013 at 11:37 pm

    @Mandalay: So, no learning from history then? I understand what you are arguing, but unless someone arguing against history offers a reason why this time should be different, I would tend ot lean more towards history. And Syria is one of those places more like Iraq and Afghanistan than, say — I’m trying to come up with a comparable place we intervened in whose outcome was not sucky.

  316. 316.

    NickT

    June 13, 2013 at 11:44 pm

    @LAC:

    As for the day when he becomes aware of the career of J Edgar Hoover.. well, let’s just say that’s going to be one for ages.

  317. 317.

    LAC

    June 14, 2013 at 12:25 am

    @NickT: stop! You are blowing my mind! :->

    Thank you for participating…

  318. 318.

    lojasmo

    June 14, 2013 at 12:32 am

    @Corner Stone:

    I agree with my extra special stalker.

    Protip: I exercised today.

  319. 319.

    Mandalay

    June 14, 2013 at 12:52 am

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    So, no learning from history then? I understand what you are arguing…

    Clearly you don’t, since that is not my argument at all. I am arguing against the moronic use of the question “Does anyone remember how that turned out?” when comparing a complex issue with another carefully selected complex issue.

    Merely citing a single cherry picked example for comparison, and then getting cutesy and saying “Does anyone remember how that turned out?” is not advancing a meaningful argument. It is just mindless regurgitation of a zinger that that was popularized by Sarah Palin.

    The FPer carefully decided to compare intervention in Syria with intervention Afghanistan in the 1980s. Well, why not compare Syria with the much more recent intervention in Libya, where the general consensus is that intervention worked out fairly well? Why not compare Syria with Rwanda, where the near-univeral consensus is that non-intervention was disastrous. Bill Clinton stated that doing nothing about Rwanda was the biggest mistake of his presidency. There are surely lessons from history with those two examples.

    You can’t invoke Afghanistan in the 1980s as your only example. It is irresponsible and bogus. You must examine many interventions (and we have certainly had enough) to draw any meaningful conclusions from history; you can’t just pick a lone example that fits your agenda.

    This is soooooo fucking obvious, yet nobody here appears to understand it.

  320. 320.

    The prophet Nostradumbass

    June 14, 2013 at 1:41 am

    If the Maddow show this evening is to be believed, it appears that Obama has indeed listened to the backseat drivers, and has decided to arm the Syrian rebels.

  321. 321.

    Thymezone

    June 14, 2013 at 2:08 am

    Dang, that might be one of the best top posts I ever read here. Kudos.

  322. 322.

    askew

    June 14, 2013 at 2:35 am

    If the Maddow show this evening is to be believed, it appears that Obama has indeed listened to the backseat drivers, and has decided to arm the Syrian rebels.

    I wouldn’t believe anything Maddow says. She has pretty much gone off the rails in the past 3 months.

  323. 323.

    Bob h

    June 14, 2013 at 6:12 am

    @The prophet Nostradumbass: This must reflect the elevation of Susan Rice to National Security Adviser.

  324. 324.

    Betty Cracker

    June 14, 2013 at 6:42 am

    @Mandalay:

    The FPer carefully decided to compare intervention in Syria with intervention Afghanistan in the 1980s.

    Actually, it was Bill Clinton who made the comparison — the quote is right there in the post above. He explicitly cited aspects of the US role in the Soviet-Afghanistan conflict and made direct inferences about how that swell outcome could be replicated in Syria. I was commenting on the dumbness of wanting to replicate that gigantic clusterfuck.

  325. 325.

    Betty Cracker

    June 14, 2013 at 6:46 am

    @mclaren:

    I claim to understand all the facts and the implications in the Syria situation.

    Thanks for starting your post off with that sentence. It’s like a big, blinking neon sign that says, “Caution: Bullshit Ahead!”

  326. 326.

    Mandalay

    June 14, 2013 at 8:45 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    Actually, it was Bill Clinton who made the comparison

    But it was you who chose to post his comments on Afghanistan, and then cite Afghanistan an example of why we should not ignore history when deciding whether to intervene in Syria.

    And Clinton correctly stated that “American help to the Afghans at that time yielded great benefits for the U.S. in the eyes of the Afghan people”. That’s a lesson from history, as well as the ensuing clusterfuck.

    There are many arguments for and against intervention in Syria, but the outcome of Afghanistan in the 1980s is hardly a reasonable place to start.

    Asking the question “Does anyone remember how that turned out?” is on a par with Palin asking “How’s that Hopey-Changey Thing Working Out for Ya?”. It’s so simplistic that it’s meaningless.

  327. 327.

    Betty Cracker

    June 14, 2013 at 9:28 am

    @Mandalay: Gah. No. Bill Clinton allegedly said we should learn from the Afghanistan model, successes and failures, in our approach to Syria. How is it not directly relevant to point out that the massive blowback that actually ensued in Afghanistan undermines Clinton’s argument?

    It’s not like anyone in the 80s said, “Yeah, let’s deliver heavy weaponry to a bunch of fanatics in Afghanistan and then skip town when the Soviets leave. What could possibly go wrong?”

    I’m not claiming mine was a brilliant retort that comprehensively addresses every nuance, but it was certainly relevant in the context, in marked contrast to anything that dribbles out of Palin’s pie-hole.

  328. 328.

    Pococurante

    June 14, 2013 at 11:00 am

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: I was thinking President Jane Fonda, myself… ;-)

  329. 329.

    Pococurante

    June 14, 2013 at 11:13 am

    @Corner Stone: LOL

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=server+stack

    @raven: I’m going to guess an ex was involved.

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