Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

Don’t expect peaches from an apple tree.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

Not all heroes wear capes.

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

T R E 4 5 O N

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

I really should read my own blog.

This year has been the longest three days of putin’s life.

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.

Republicans: slavery is when you own me. freedom is when I own you.

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

Thanks for reminding me that Van Jones needs to be slapped.

He really is that stupid.

The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

In my day, never was longer.

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

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Reader Interactions

456Comments

  1. 1.

    NickT

    http://thedailybanter.com/2013/06/snowden-and-greenwald-beginning-to-self-destruct-the-nation-and-mother-jones-raise-questions/

    On his Wednesday podcast, Sam Seder said in support of Greenwald and Snowden, “That guy [Snowden] revealed all of this to us.” But in terms of new news, the “direct access” description is arguably the only aspect of the PRISM item, other than the PRISM PowerPoint and the story of a guy named Edward Snowden who leaked it, that was unknown prior to last week’s reporting. And it’s not holding water under scrutiny. Furthermore, we’ve been aware of the NSA’s eavesdropping efforts, including email, for many years now. In fact, the Obama administration, only three months into its first term weeded out several instances of unwarranted NSA eavesdropping. Kurt Eichenwald covered the NSA’s counter-terrorism efforts in his bestselling book, 500 Days. But this was somehow flushed down the memory hole in lieu of hyperbole and kneejerk mass hysteria over Greenwald and others shouting “fire!” (or “Worse than Bush!”) in a virtual crowded theater.

    I think the second avatar suits your urban hipster persona better, but I concede that the judicious, skeptical, slightly constipated, older look may appeal to your Burkean modesty more.

  2. 2.

    Cassidy

    Just by age I’m going with Greenwald. Sorry, you’re no spring Snowden. When do I get let out of the penalty box?

  5. 5.

    piratedan

    hipster=glasses…. ’nuff said and TY Nick for the link. I’m starting to feel like our double date with GG and Snowy is on the rocks as neither have come back from the powder room yet and they’ve both ordered the lobster.

  7. 7.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    Keep on ridiculing and denigrating Greenwald and Snowden, and they’ll keep speaking truth to power and exposing the vast crimes perpetrated by the Federal Government in the name of empire.

    Many people on this blog would have made wonderful, loyal, orthodox Party Members in the CPSU in the days of the Soviet Union if their reaction to Greenwald and Snowden is any indication.

  9. 9.

    The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik

    I continue to find myself despondent at the state of Climate Change issues in the US. No matter what new evidence comes out, one way or another, it’s all buried under a chorus of SUPERMASSIVE GREEN LIBERAL FUCKING HOAX!!!!!!!! And pretty much nothing gets done because these are the jackasses that get listened to, because the GOP has such a fucking unassailable institutional advantage and stranglehold. Because we all know true Americans can’t suffer a hippie to fucking live, nor brook any opposition to our golden gods of gas and oil.

  13. 13.

    NickT

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    You mean it’s a masochism thing with them? The more we laugh at their pathetic little fabrications and ignorance of the facts, the more they’ll invent and squirm and try and sell to the Chinese?

    Because, you know, nothing says principled lover of freedom like handing over sensitive information to the libertarian paradise that is China.

  15. 15.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    @NickT:

    Any world power that an counterbalance the empire of the Federal Government is a good thing, full stop. I don’t care who they are. The Federal Government is by far the biggest threat to freedom in the world today.

    At one time it was necessary to ally with Stalin to stop Hitler, after all. This is now different.

  19. 19.

    NickT

    @Emma:

    Yeah. Who was that crazy old coot who had a newsletter published in his name and under his signature that made him millions from racism and gold-buggery – and yet he’d never read or approved of his own newsletter in over a decade of publication?

    Why yes, it was principled Libertarian Ron Paul!

  20. 20.

    pamelabrown53

    @schrodinger’s cat: Beyond Snowden’s physical attributes, I’d say his story and subsequent flight to HK are beyond the pale.

    Hey mistermix, if you #StandwithRand then maybe go for the wienie hiding out in HK while claiming to be a savior of the free world.

  23. 23.

    Roy G.

    Keep on trollin’, Keep on trollin’, troll with the changes.

    You know you know you know you got to.

  24. 24.

    Mnemosyne

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    Many people on this blog would have made wonderful, loyal, orthodox Party Members in the CPSU in the days of the Soviet Union if their reaction to Greenwald and Snowden is any indication.

    …

    Any world power that an counterbalance the empire of the Federal Government is a good thing, full stop. I don’t care who they are. The Federal Government is by far the biggest threat to freedom in the world today.

    At one time it was necessary to ally with Stalin to stop Hitler, after all. This is now different.

    I think I have whiplash. Anybody have a neck brace I can borrow?

  26. 26.

    gussie

    Glenn is such a self-righteous narcissistic jerkwad. He should be more like me, and do nothing but wank in blog comments. Now that would be a real contribution.

  27. 27.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    How many wars of aggression or assassinations has China carried out lately? How many countries has it bombed? Now compare that to the Federal Government.

  29. 29.

    pokeyblow

    Impressive? Thought-provoking? Mature? Persuasive?

    …which adjectives best describe this blog post?

  30. 30.

    NickT

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    How many gulags has the Federal government set up recently?

    Please use as much material from Glenn Beck and Alex Jones as possible when writing your answer. For bonus points, explain why civil rights legislation was wrong and how fiat currency is the Beast of the Apocalypse in paper form.

  35. 35.

    KG

    @The Friendly Libertarian: dude… look, I’m fairly libertarian in my leanings but the idea that a repressive, totalitarian government is a good thing to have as a counterbalance to the US government is, well… twice as dumb as a bag of hammers. The idea that the Chinese government is a force for liberty is delusional at best. It is a government that has no problem letting its own citizens die if it means their state owned corporations can make a few extra bucks selling tainted/poisoned goods to other countries, including the US. The US government, as tyrannical as you think it may be, is at least interested in keeping you alive by not letting you be exposed to dangerous chemicals.

  40. 40.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @The Friendly Libertarian: Yeah, cause we’re so much worse than the rest of the world. I see you’ve never:
    1. Been hunted because of your religion
    2. hunted because of your gender
    3. hunted because of your sexual preference
    4. starved
    5. kidnapped and thrown into a military as a child
    6. thrown into prison and disappeared for protesting the government.

    Yeah, it’s disturbing to think our 4th amendment rights are being violated, but the idea that our right to not be treated as guilty before we do something ranks anywhere near as bad the way people are treated in most countries is laughable. Get the fuck over it. Your attitude makes it real easy to dismiss your cause.

  41. 41.

    pokeyblow

    @mistermix: No, no need. I like open threads just fine. I do think, though, a glittery fanpic of Obama would have won any contest here, hands-down.

  43. 43.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    Of course all large nations tends towards totalitarianism in the end (inverted or otherwise). Large countries just don’t work. Eventually, they become ungovernable. There are too many disparate interests to make them work, and they eventually devolve into tyranny, followed by collapse.

    The United States needs to prepare for collapse, because I fully expect it to happen in my lifetime.

    Fortunately, when this happens, the Former United States can break into several free, independent, regional nations, such as:

    *The Republic of Texas
    *The Californian Federation
    *The Republic of Dixie
    *The Independent City-State of Greater New York

    etc, breaking it down into these component parts (among others) would make each regional, independent nation more governable and more inline with the local desires and preferences of the residents.

  44. 44.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    @NickT:

    Again, the United States imprisons more people than any other nation, both per capita and in absolute numbers. How often must I repeat this? We have gulags, we just call them prisons.

  46. 46.

    different-church-lady

    Wow… the batlight works even when you don’t use words. That prism thingy must have some sophisticated picture algorithms.

  49. 49.

    NickT

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    Feel free to repeat your nonsense as often as you like. You aren’t going to make your cause any better. Are you proud to stand with a bunch of racist bigots whose only agenda is the preservation of white male privilege?

    How do you feel about the civil rights legislation?

    What about the right of women to control their own bodies?

    Let’s see how far your libertarian principles take you, shall we?

  50. 50.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    Hmm, my ignorance led me to believe that self-serving, verbose bitch fits written from the safety of Brazil and published in an overseas newspaper in no way resembled speaking truth to power. You learn something new every day.

  51. 51.

    different-church-lady

    @NickT:

    So, when did you escape from the FEMA death camps exactly?

    And, more importantly, how can we send him back?

  53. 53.

    NickT

    @Cassidy:

    There’s a lot to be said for a policy of horizontally ventilating T & H. That was probably what mix meant.

  55. 55.

    Citizen_X

    @The Friendly Libertarian: Hey, that’s actually pretty interesting.

    You, OTOH, are not. And this:

    The second dynamic, directed inward, involves the subjection of the mass of the population to economic “rationalization”, with continual “downsizing” and “outsourcing” of jobs abroad and dismantling of what remains of the welfare state created by U.S. Presidents Franklin D. Roosevelt’s New Deal and Lyndon B. Johnson’s Great Society. Thus, neoliberalism is an integral component of inverted totalitarianism. The state of insecurity in which this places the public serves the useful function of making people feel helpless, thus making it less likely that they will become politically active, and thus helping to maintain the first dynamic.

    ain’t no Libertarianism nohow.

  58. 58.

    SatanicPanic

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    more inline with the local desires and preferences of the residents.

    Like slavery!

    Oh this is fun, we need more libertarian trolls. Also- inverted totalitarianism? Am I the only person who hears that and thinks uh, isn’t that like, not totalitarianism?

  60. 60.

    Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    Fortunately, when this happens, the Former United States can break into several free, independent, regional nations, such as:

    *The Republic of Texas
    *The Californian Federation
    *The Republic of Dixie
    *The Independent City-State of Greater New York

    See, repeating your failed theories from earlier threads scores you no points. Bad troll! Up your game.

  61. 61.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    Why should the people of Mississippi for example be coerced to live under the same Government as the people of New York City? They couldn’t be more different in their preferences and politics. it’s as ridiculous as making Ukraine live under the same central Government as Russia.

  63. 63.

    NickT

    @SatanicPanic:

    I just want people to remember that once Rand Paul takes power oxygen will no longer submit to the tyrannical bonds imposed upon it by hydrogen.

    Freedom!

  64. 64.

    Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)

    @Cassidy: ah, well, carry on then. I’m assuming it’s because you’re going through your phone co.’s IP instead of your wifi IP.

  66. 66.

    NickT

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    4 Punxsutawney Avenue Williamsburg will no longer yield to the oligarchic tyranny of the self-imposed community of Williamsburg! Within a year, our GDP will surpass that of Singapore, aided by our new currency of shiny gold doohickies!

  69. 69.

    Mnemosyne

    I got my new iPad Mini yesterday and it’s pretty sweet. However, all of the complainers are totally right — this site looks like ass on the iPad because the mobile version pushes all of the comments to the right and the “regular” site has the center column about an inch wide with the two side columns twice the size of the middle. Please to fix, Ms. Web Designer!

  72. 72.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    @Amir Khalid:

    Amir, Singapore became an independent nation from your country, why can’t New York City and Texas do the same from the United States?

  77. 77.

    Scott S.

    For christ’s sake, people, stop trying to talk sense to him! Don’t you realize how wonderful things could get in the US is all the libertarians moved to China?!

  78. 78.

    Mnemosyne

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    it’s as ridiculous as making Ukraine live under the same central Government as Russia.

    Or making Tibet live under the same central government as China. Oh, wait, that’s right, China’s wars of conquest don’t count.

  80. 80.

    NickT

    @Scott S.:

    Seems kinda unfair on the Chinese people. First they have Rupert Murdoch stealing their wimmins and now we intend to dump our toxic sludge on them too?!

  81. 81.

    Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)

    @Mnemosyne: there is no “Ms.” web designer anymore, and since mistermix doesn’t do responsive design, this is what we’re stuck with atm.

  83. 83.

    quannlace

    Why should the people of Mississippi for example be coerced to live under the same Government as the people of New York City?

    You right, they are different. Mississippi gets more federal aid than it pays back in taxes, than New York.

  85. 85.

    Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)

    @Scott S.:

    stop trying to talk sense to him!

    Assumes we’re trying to talk sense and not just playing “bat the troll.”

  87. 87.

    Amir Khalid

    @The Friendly Libertarian:
    The state of Singapore did not secede of its own free will from the Federation of Malaysia. So tell me what Texas and NYC could do, or would want to do, to warrant being expelled from the USA by the Federal Government.

  91. 91.

    Mnemosyne

    @Scott S.:

    Don’t you realize how wonderful things could get in the US is all the libertarians moved to China?!

    Actually, that would probably fit their modus operandi quite well. Have you ever noticed that libertarians never volunteer to move to unpopulated areas and build their society from scratch to prove us all wrong? They always insist on trying to take over places that have 400 years of infrastructure already in place that they can leech off of.

    That’s because they know there’s no way you can build a city (or even a housing development) on libertarian principles. They have to have all of the roads, sewer systems, electrical wires etc. in place, because there ain’t no way a libertarian “society” is going to be able to agree on how to build them.

  93. 93.

    Jewish Steel

    @cleek: I am a longtime reader and fan of your comments, and I have a suggestion to offer. I hope you will forgive my bluntness and consider this as it is intended: a suggestion from someone who values what you do.

    First–in terms of raw intellect, I’d have to say that Tunch probably has you beat. That is nothing to be ashamed of; I’d say that statement applies to just about all of us.

    Second–and far more important–by instinct and training, Tunch is much more thorough in his thinking, and this shows up in his writing. He is sort of a freak that way.

  94. 94.

    Loneoak

    Huh. I had no idea that the people of Mississippi are coerced into living under the same government as the City-State of Greater Hippieblackandbrownistan. I was under the impression that they assented to joining the Union 196 years ago.

    It is really amazing how spectacularly stupid libertarians are.

  95. 95.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    I will repeat myeslf:

    The Federal Government if the United States is a far greater threat to freedom today than China and no honest person can say otherwise.

  96. 96.

    NickT

    @Mnemosyne:

    Everyone knows that winged gold-farting unicorns will cause roads and bridges and sewers to magically appear once freedom reigns.

  98. 98.

    BethanyAnne

    I liked E J Dionne’s point about libertarianism. If the fall of Communist regimes delegitimizatizes the Left broadly, what are we to make of the fact that there are precisely zero Libertarian countries?

    One of my reactions when I first read the PRISM story was that it was gonna bring libertarians out of the woodwork. Much like a good sex scandal emboldens fundies. “Hey, this thing I hate all the time! It has a problem! Therefore, I’m right!”

  99. 99.

    Mnemosyne

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    The Federal Government if the United States is a far greater threat to freedom today than China and no honest person can say otherwise.

    To whose freedom, though? Yes, it’s true, American citizens living in the United States are in very little danger of being abducted by Chinese authorities and put into labor camps. But your statement is about as significant as claiming that people living in the US are in greater danger from the US government than they are from the government of Iceland. I mean, no duh?

  100. 100.

    burnspbesq

    Some actual good news from your Fedrul Gubmint.

    In today’s Federal Register, DOJ announced a pilot program for tribal law enforcement agencies to begin enforcing domestic violence laws on the rez. So, yes, some good came out of last year’s brouhaha over the reauthorization of the Violence Against Women Act.

  101. 101.

    NickT

    @Mnemosyne:

    Just look at all those American dissidents taking refuge in the Chinese embassy every year to escape from our brutal tyranny.

    Oh, wait….

  103. 103.

    mistermix

    @Mnemosyne:

    I got my new iPad Mini yesterday and it’s pretty sweet. However, all of the complainers are totally right — this site looks like ass on the iPad because the mobile version pushes all of the comments to the right and the “regular” site has the center column about an inch wide with the two side columns twice the size of the middle. Please to fix, Ms. Web Designer!

    I don’t understand the part about mobile site. Please send a screenshot to my email. The mobile site should give you a page of short post summaries, and when you click to read more, you should see the whole post and then comments below.

    I’ve had zero time to work on site design lately, but I plan on making another set of tweaks when I do have time.

  109. 109.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Citizen_X: Or, like Bruce Sterling (or William Gibson, I get them confused) called it a decade or two ago: Disneyland with the death penalty.

  111. 111.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    @Mnemosyne:

    The freedom of the world! China does not interfere in the internal affairs of other nations, the United States does, and not only that, but bombs and violently overthrows in them in coups, assassinations, wars of aggression, subversion, and economic warfare until they are coerced into compliance with the dictates of the Federal Government and its world-wide empire. Any nations such as Russia, China, and Iran that resist this are demonized relentlessly when they can’t be overthrown.

  112. 112.

    Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)

    @mistermix: She’s not talking about the mobile site, she’s talking about the main site design, which sucks ass on a tablet. The mobile site is not meant for tablets anyway.

    Also, while you’re at it, the middle column looks like shit on a 13″ screen if you don’t have the browser out to full screen size. Some of us multitask.

  113. 113.

    Socoolsofresh

    Can’t wait to see this blog when there is a Republican in the White House and all you tribalists start loving Glenn Greenwald again.

    Its awesome how instead of talking about the issues around spying and the surveillance state, you guys just go into straight shoot the messenger mode. Its real mature.

  117. 117.

    Comrade Jake

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Its awesome how instead of talking about the issues around spying and the surveillance state, you guys just go into straight shoot the messenger mode. Its real mature.

    #It’s

  118. 118.

    Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    China does not interfere in the internal affairs of other nations, the United States does, and not only that, but bombs and violently overthrows in them in coups, assassinations, wars of aggression, subversion, and economic warfare until they are coerced into compliance with the dictates of the Federal Government and its world-wide empire. Any nations such as Russia, China, and Iran that resist this are demonized relentlessly when they can’t be overthrown.

    See, this is the kind of troll I think we can have fun with. The statements are so ridiculously counterfactual that they appear from another world. Not the level of invective and spittle of a T&H, yet. Just … cray-cray.

  122. 122.

    NickT

    @LAC:

    I have to say that Friendly Libertarian is a pretty unimpressive piece of performance art, because the person sock-puppeting it doesn’t even react to mention of Ron Paul’s name. Every libertarian I’ve ever met in real life or encountered online starts foaming at the mouth if you even mention the Holy One with less than total, grovelling devotion. Our little chewtoy doesn’t even bat an eyelash.

    Gotta give this attempt a D, I am afraid.

  123. 123.

    replicnt6

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    The Federal Government if the United States is a far greater threat to freedom today than China and no honest person can say otherwise.

    Welp, that one convinced me. Apparently, the 85th time’s the charm.

  127. 127.

    gbear

    @Gin & Tonic: I got a mild case of vertigo just looking at that photo. Wow.

    And it does prove TFL’s point that we are not free in America.

  128. 128.

    Cassidy

    Woohoo! FREEDOM! I feel a little like Morgan Freeman. Being inside changes a man.

  130. 130.

    Hill Dweller

    In other news, the House just voted to block Obama from transferring 56 Gitmo detainees to Yemen.

  132. 132.

    Comrade Dread

    @Socoolsofresh: Part of determining what is true is knowing who is trying to lie, exaggerate, or obfuscate for their own agenda.

    The tech companies are disputing the description of what they did and the level of access the Federal government had that Greenwald and Snowden have asserted.

    So yes, critiquing the messenger in a story is a valid thing to do if you’re not sure who is telling you the truth.

    And mocking the status of sainthood or sacred cow attributed to these guys by some parties is also fair game.

  133. 133.

    Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Can’t wait to see this blog when there is a Republican in the White House and all you tribalists start loving Glenn Greenwald again.

    Wow, you must be new here.

  138. 138.

    Comrade Jake

    I think people generally come here for the snark, don’t they? Lots of ins and outs and what have you’s, the occasional acid flashback.

  142. 142.

    NickT

    @gbear:

    His refusal to crush the opposition using the bully pulpit is just another cynical act of betrayal!

  144. 144.

    Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)

    @Hill Dweller: This is just a house vote, right? explain whether this has to go through the senate, please?

  146. 146.

    replicnt6

    @Gin & Tonic: Pulpit Rock! I was there several years ago and I felt totally oppressed by the lack of railing. It really made my legs turn to jelly to see people sitting on the edge with their legs hanging over. It’s a m-f long way down.

  150. 150.

    Comrade Jake

    Serious question: why does Obama even need House approval to ship detainees to Yemen? Is this a funding issue?

  153. 153.

    pokeyblow

    iPad version of ths site doesn’t work well. Switching to regular version works fine.

  155. 155.

    Comrade Jake

    @pokeyblow:

    iPad version of ths site doesn’t work well. Switching to regular version works fine.

    It works better, but I find I have to turn it on its side to have enough space for the comments.

  156. 156.

    gene108

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    How many wars of aggression or assassinations has China carried out lately? How many countries has it bombed? Now compare that to the Federal Government.

    Let me:

    Two Chinese patrols came on foot, two more arrived in military vehicles and a Chinese helicopter flew overhead. With all the activity, the Indian authorities failed to notice until the next morning that about 30 Chinese soldiers had pitched three tents in an area both countries claim.

    Indian military officials protested. The Chinese stayed put. India protested again. The Chinese, who had with them a few high-altitude guard dogs, responded by erecting two more tents and raising a sign saying, in English, “You are in Chinese side.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/03/world/asia/where-china-meets-india-push-comes-to-shove.html?_r=0

    China has a boat load of border disputes with neighboring countries. The ones with India I’m more familiar with. China wants annex the Indian states of Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim. They also have disputes with Vietnam and every other SE Asian country they border.

    It’s only a matter of time before China starts trying encroach on territory.

  159. 159.

    lojasmo

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    And we have more gun deaths. Could it be that we are simply a nation full of violent morons?

    In related news, Ron Paul just praised both Snowden and Greenwald, so there’s that.

  160. 160.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    @gene108:

    The United States annexed about half of Mexico in an aggressive war of conquest. Pretty tame stuff compared to that, no?

  164. 164.

    pokeyblow

    @Comrade Jake: On my iPad, the page often fails to load fully, leaving the bottom-half of the screen a blank grey.

    I haven’t said anything as it could be my iPad… that said, the device is more-or-less in new condition, with very few apps installed.

  165. 165.

    catclub

    @artem1s: I would really like to expand the middle ( comments) column on any but the widest monitor. Is this possible? Some plugin?

  166. 166.

    Hill Dweller

    @Comrade Jake: Yes. When Republicans took over the House, they used the defense appropriations bill to strip funding and add an absurd amount of restrictions for any transfers, making it virtually impossible to close Gitmo.

    The 56 detainees Obama wants transferred are part of the 86 that were cleared for release a couple of years ago.

  167. 167.

    Mnemosyne

    @Comrade Jake:

    Serious question: why does Obama even need House approval to ship detainees to Yemen? Is this a funding issue?

    I think it’s a funding issue. IIRC, there was a problem with the previous government of Yemen where they were refusing to take their prisoners back unless we gave them X dollars in bribes (also a funding issue, obviously), but the new government is more amenable to it. Still, it ain’t free to fly to Yemen, so some money will have to be spent on it somewhere.

  169. 169.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @The Friendly Libertarian:
    OTHERWISE! OTHERWISE! OTHERWISE! OTHERWISE! OTHERWISE! OTHERWISE! OTHERWISE! OTHERWISE! OTHERWISE!

    I said it. And you’re still full of that stuff libertarians are made of: Shit.

  174. 174.

    Mnemosyne

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    The United States annexed about half of Mexico in an aggressive war of conquest. Pretty tame stuff compared to that, no?

    Yes, if you completely ignore the history of China and pretend they only formed 50 years ago, they look terrific compared to the US. But you also look like a fucking idiot if you do that.

  177. 177.

    Mnemosyne

    @mistermix:

    I don’t understand the part about mobile site. Please send a screenshot to my email. The mobile site should give you a page of short post summaries, and when you click to read more, you should see the whole post and then comments below.

    I’ll see if I can figure out how to do a screenshot of the mobile site tonight and send it to you. It’s basically that the left-hand margin of the comments is too wide, at least on my iPad.

  178. 178.

    Jockey Full of Malbec

    @KG:
    Well, Libertarians and the Chinese are both big fans of organ harvesting.

    So there’s that, at least.

  182. 182.

    Comrade Dread

    @NickT: Actually, if he’s going to respect property rights, we’d all have to self-deport (Thanks, Mitt Romney!) and give the whole shebang back to the Native Americans.

  184. 184.

    ellie

    I was going to post about how I think Snowden is much cuter than Greenwald, but Greenwald is probably more interesting to talk to, but then I thought, meh. I don’t care about the NSA spying or surveilling or whatever the hell. We as citizens gave up our power to the bushies so they could “keep us safe,” which was a big load of bullshit. Power will never be relinquished. Never, ever. As for libertarians, fuck them. Ron Paul is an asshole who wants to be all up in my lady parts. He is a hypocrite of the highest order. Fuck him and fuck his fans.

  188. 188.

    Amir Khalid

    @gene108:
    Not to mention their decades of tacit support for the communist insurgency here in Malaysia.

    @The Friendly Libertarian:
    Y’know, you still haven’t answered my question, so here it is again: Singapore didn’t quit Malaysia, it was expelled. What would Texas and NYC have to do to get thrown out of a country that fought a war to keep states from seceding?

  189. 189.

    Soonergrunt

    @The Friendly Libertarian: What fucking planet do you live on? Seriously, what is the color of the sky in your world?
    Just within my relatively short lifetime, China has invaded Vietnam on several occasions, traded artillery fire with their erstwhile friends the DPRK, gotten into multiple border skirmishes that included the use of artillery with India (as recently as last month,) threatened Japanese and Phillipine vessels, both naval and civilian, in international waters, threatened Japan over Okinawa last week over a sovereignty claim that the Chinese apparently pulled out of their asses, and then there’s this small issue of a place called Tibet.

    You are one stupid motherfucker.

  190. 190.

    Mnemosyne

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    China does not interfere in the internal affairs of other nations, the United States does …

    Oh, sweetie. So young. So naive. Who do you think finances North Korea and gives them their marching orders? Hint: it ain’t the United States.

    Any nations such as Russia, China, and Iran that resist this are demonized relentlessly when they can’t be overthrown.

    Slept through the Cold War, did we? Yes, poor Russia and China, pushed around and bullied by the US with no way to defend themselves through, say, proxy wars.

  192. 192.

    NickT

    @geg6:

    I think he’d have been happiest as Andrei Vyshinsky:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Vyshinsky

    Three months later, Vyshinsky achieved international fame as the prosecutor at the Zinoviev-Kamenev trial, the first of the Moscow Trials during the Great Purge, lashing its defenseless victims with vituperative rhetoric:[19]
    Shoot these rabid dogs. Death to this gang who hide their ferocious teeth, their eagle claws, from the people! Down with that vulture Trotsky, from whose mouth a bloody venom drips, putrefying the great ideals of Marxism!… Down with these abject animals! Let’s put an end once and for all to these miserable hybrids of foxes and pigs, these stinking corpses! Let’s exterminate the mad dogs of capitalism, who want to tear to pieces the flower of our new Soviet nation! Let’s push the bestial hatred they bear our leaders back down their own throats!
    He often punctuated speeches with phrases like “Dogs of the Fascist bourgeoisie,” “mad dogs of Trotskyism,” “dregs of society,” “decayed people,” “terrorist thugs and degenerates,” and “accursed vermin.”[20] This dehumanization aided in what historian Arkady Vaksberg calls “a hiterto unknown type of trial where there was not the slightest need for evidence: what evidence did you need when you were dealing with ‘stinking carrion’ and ‘mad dogs’?”

  193. 193.

    Soonergrunt

    @Mnemosyne: Supposedly the current government of Yemen wants $20 million to build a reeducation/retraining center.
    I don’t know why we don’t fly these guys to Sanaa International, open the cargo ramp on the plane, shove them out with a couple of cases of bottled water and MREs and call it good. They are Yemeni citizens. Let the government of Yemen deal with them.

  197. 197.

    burnspbesq

    @Ruckus:

    Are you fixated on the method, or can we come up with those with a more positive outcome?

    Beg pardon? Unclear what that refers to.

  200. 200.

    Comrade Jake

    I remember some time ago speaking to a colleague from China who said that the Chinese would never have had a problem like Gitmo. You see, they simply would have just killed them all. Problem solved!

  201. 201.

    Forum Transmitted Disease

    China does not interfere in the internal affairs of other nations

    @The Friendly Libertarian: Which explains the fifty acre Chinese embassy I saw recently in an African country which shall not be named, as well as the many construction sites in that same nation that were surrounded by armed PLA guards.

    You may also want to have a chat with some Tibetans. They’d like their country back, the Chinese have had it since the fifties and not to their benefit.

    You are ridiculous. Just because something doesn’t get press coverage doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

  209. 209.

    NickT

    @raven:

    “But Chairman Mao, how do you manage without any dirty fucking hippies to punch occasionally?”

    “Well, President Nixon, that’s why we like to have you American capitalist running dogs over for tea once in a while.”

  211. 211.

    Elie

    @Socoolsofresh:

    I frankly hope he goes to jail.

    I think its apalling and disgraceful that he and that Snowden took it upon themselves to decide what as dangerous or not. Then have the balls (along with the Guardian bootlickers) to assert their for sure knowledge that no damage was done to the US, key personnel, its allies or interests — like that would be immediately OBVIOUS to them or anyone else! Amazing hutzpah and just plain unvarnished egotism. I am not necessarily convinced that Snowden is not a Chinese operative either. GG is just a wannabe Master of the Universe…

    I do believe in whistleblowing and discrete sharing of some secret information… but not with this arrogant and reckless self promotion. As the Director of “We Steal Secrets” said in his documentary, Assange never allowed for the possibilty that his plans would explode because the “secret source” would want to be known — would want the attendant noteriety.

    We have here a narcissistic self promoter aided and abetted by another self promoting narcissist. Their character IS central to this — not irrelevant. Anyone having dealth with a narcissistic personality would not want a person of such distorted personality attributes making decisions on anyone else’s risk or vulnerbility. From their perspectives, everyone else’s risk is negligible or irrelevant.

    So both of these assholes, who you will note are at the center of the story — not peripheral to important revelations — will hopefully get what they deserve — though we will have to hear them be victims and martyrs — almost worse than just having them disappear into irrelevance.

  213. 213.

    Ruckus

    @Loneoak:
    It is really amazing how spectacularly stupid libertarians are.

    It is really hard to see the real world when one’s head is so firmly inserted in one’s rectal cavity. Of course how they see what they think they do see when it is, is also a mystery.

  216. 216.

    replicnt6

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Clooney’s OK, but Cumberbatch is better.

    Wow. Some male sex objects I understand but some I totally don’t. I get George Clooney. Cumberbatch is fucking creepy-looking. I guess maybe that’s a feature. A chacun son gout, I guess.

  218. 218.

    Calouste

    @Soonergrunt:

    You forgot Taiwan, which they have threatened multiple times with an invasion if they declare unilateral independence, plus there are a number of islands in the South China sea that China very aggressively claims ownership off.

  219. 219.

    NickT

    @raven:

    I’ve never seen it. I’ll have to look around and see if I can rustle up a copy through the magic of the intertoobz.

  220. 220.

    different-church-lady

    @artem1s:

    the middle column looks like shit on a 13″ screen if you don’t have the browser out to full screen size.

    the middle column looks like crap even if you are using a 21″ screen and have the browser truncated to half the screen.

    THE MIDDLE COLUMN LOOKS LIKE CRAP NO MATTER WHO IS PRESIDENT!

    And, Mistermix, thanks for taking care of the “can’t put two paragraphs into blockquotes” bug for us.

  221. 221.

    mistermix

    @Mnemosyne: And you are on the mobile site, right? Not the main site on a mobile device.

    Also, I get that the middle column of the non-mobile site is too narrow on some devices/screen layouts. That’s a known issue, this mobile one is new.

  223. 223.

    The Friendly Libertarian

    @Jockey Full of Malbec:

    I believe that the several regions of what is now the United States would be better off as independent nations (though perhaps still united under a loos alliance of friendship and free trade) rather than coerced under a large, controlling, centralized government.

    The people of California are Soc!alists, those in Texas, libertarians, those in Dixie, conservatives, those in New York City authoritarian liberals. Why not let them govern their own regions as they see fit?

  225. 225.

    different-church-lady

    @Comrade Jake:

    It works better, but I find I have to turn it on its side to have enough space for the comments.

    OMG, you must be exhausted!

  226. 226.

    Todd

    @mistermix:

    Also, I get that the middle column of the non-mobile site is too narrow on some devices/screen layouts. That’s a known issue, this mobile one is new.

    I’ve had the same problem. Also, you can’t copy on the mobile site.

  228. 228.

    Corner Stone

    @Elie:

    I frankly hope he goes to jail.

    Just to be clear, the “he” in your comment is for the reporter, correct?

  229. 229.

    burnspbesq

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    I suppose it’s pointless to remind you that democratically elected legislatures in all 50 states asked to become part of the United States.

    Coercion? Well, I guess if you live in a bizarre parallel universe, it’s possible to see the action of a democratically elected legislature as exactly the same thing as coercion.

    Tell me, in your parallel universe, is Megan Rapinoe straight? If yes, I might be interested in moving there.

  230. 230.

    replicnt6

    @Elie:

    I think its apalling and disgraceful that he and that Snowden took it upon themselves to decide what as dangerous or not.

    I do believe in whistleblowing and discrete sharing of some secret information…

    Please elaborate on how one does whistleblowing or discreetly shares secret information without taking it upon oneself to decide whether this whistleblowing or sharing is dangerous.

  231. 231.

    Soonergrunt

    @Calouste: This is true. The stuff I left out only strengthens the case that China is a direct and growing threat to her neighbors, and by extension, TFL is among the dumbest, most reality-detatched commenters we’ve had in a while.

  233. 233.

    different-church-lady

    @Hill Dweller:

    …and add an absurd amount of restrictions for any transfers…

    Ah HA! I knew there had to be a reason beyond just the money.

  236. 236.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @The Friendly Libertarian: I see, once again, a libertarian has no clue what the word socialist means. But let’s play your game. Here in Texas:
    1. Dallas, Houston, Austin, and San Antonio would be regulated capitalism
    2. The rest of the fuckin’ state lives off of those four. That’s probably a good definition of libertarian.
    So, no, your division wouldn’t work, because it’s not small enough. As for the south, and the rest of Texas, we’d find out pretty quickly how independent of government they are, kind of like at the end of the Civil War when the Confederate government was having to actually act like a central government.

  238. 238.

    NickT

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    At some point TFL/TFS will realize that states are not just monolithic blocs of red or blue, but kind of a patchwork quilt, with the cities generally trending blue and the rural areas generally trending red.

    There’s an awful lot of reality out there waiting for libertarians to discover it.l

  242. 242.

    AnonPhenom

    @mistermix:

    Not to pile on here, but:
    If you could move that button for switching between the desktop & mobile/iPad versions to the TOP of the page (so you don’t need to scroll to the bottom of the page to make the switch) … THAT’D BE GREAT.

  243. 243.

    NickT

    An earlier version of this column misattributed a passage from Corinthians that ends with the statement, “God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.” The letter to the Corinthians is by Paul, not Jesus.

    Name that columnist – and no Googling! The NSA has its eye on you, remember.

  244. 244.

    Suffern ACE

    @burnspbesq: Yes, but no one asked me! They just sort of forced me into this whole arrangement when I was born and the only reason I know that people keep with it is that they have a gun pointed at their heads by the immoral state.

  245. 245.

    raven

    @NickT: Epic flick. McQueen is great, Attenborough, Candice Bergen and an incredible setting. Steve works that 50 like he’s Josh Randall all over again.

  246. 246.

    NickT

    @raven:

    You have redoubled my interest. I shall seek it out as soon as the agents of the tyrannical state release me from my FEMA-thrall.

  251. 251.

    ? Martin

    @replicnt6:

    Please elaborate on how one does whistleblowing or discreetly shares secret information without taking it upon oneself to decide whether this whistleblowing or sharing is dangerous.

    Take it to the agencies legal council. Take it to Congress. Take it to a court. Trust that our system of government functions.

    Snowden didn’t do any of these things. He doesn’t seem to recognize any legitimacy to government at all, or any distinction between them.

  253. 253.

    different-church-lady

    @NickT:

    At some point TFL/TFS will realize…

    That’s giving him an awful lot of credit, isn’t it?

  255. 255.

    Jockey Full of Malbec

    @The Friendly Libertarian:
    Your ignore economies of scale. Bigger organizations almost always win. This is true for both government and business.

    The reason why the planet isn’t littered with a million little independent city-states is that, eventually a larger nation annexes them– or they choose to join together to keep this from happening.

    As for this word ‘coerced’, you keep using it, yet it does not seem to mean what you think it does. We do have these little things called ‘elections’ from time to time.

  256. 256.

    different-church-lady

    @NickT:

    I’ll have to look around and see if I can rustle up a copy through the magic of the intertoobz.

    What? And let the NSA know what you’re watching?

  257. 257.

    Soonergrunt

    @Cassidy: {coquettish eye-batting} Hi Sailor. What’re you doing in this part of town? {/coquettish eye-batting}

  259. 259.

    Matt McIrvin

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    The United States imprisons more people than any other country on Earth.

    It sure does! You keep talking about the Federal Government, though. How does it stack up vs. the states?

    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpus11.pdf

    In 2011, federal prisons had 214,774 prisoners, vs. 1,289,376 in state prisons and 735,601 in local jails.

    Of the three, the federal prison population does seem to be growing the fastest (the state prison population seems to actually be past peak, maybe a delayed effect of the drop in general crime rates). And many of those federal prisoners are in for nonviolent offenses; this is a real problem.

    But, that said, the vast majority of those imprisoned Americans are in state or local systems. A looser federal government probably would not have a lot to do with that.

  260. 260.

    Comrade Dread

    The people of California are Soc!alists, those in Texas, libertarians, those in Dixie, conservatives, those in New York City authoritarian liberals. Why not let them govern their own regions as they see fit?

    Because unlike you, quite a few of us self-identify as citizens of the United States and we would have a problem with being told by a majority to shut up and leave our homes, property, and friends behind to continue to be Americans, so you and your cohorts could play Galt’s Gulch.

    I’ve seen and read what Libertarianism results in: general exploitation of the poor and middle class, an amoral business class that only cares for itself (not the company it works for, the community it works in, or the society at large), poorer working conditions, lower wages, greater pollution, and private police/militias with which to keep people in line.

  263. 263.

    different-church-lady

    @Emma: I think the Dalai Lama would punch him in the neck after about 3 minutes. And the Dalai Lama is not a man given to violence.

  264. 264.

    lojasmo

    @pokeyblow:

    You’re so clever with your dogged douchebaggery and repetitive bullshit.

    You should grace the sidewalk at the bottom of a tall building with your innards.

  265. 265.

    Cassidy

    Hey, hey, hey…lewt’s not get ahead of ourselves. I’m willing to give up Texas and export the glibertarians and conservatives there to test out TFL’s theory. We can do a swap, all the people who want to be American citizens can come up here and take an abandoned home, we build a fence…like a really tall, electrified fence…and sit back and watch them descend into anarchy and cannabalism flourish.

  266. 266.

    Violet

    @Forum Transmitted Disease: China has been actively involved in Africa for at least 25 years. They build things the people and governments want like stadiums and roads. They have little hesitation in using their “generosity and friendship” to their own advantage. Ask anyone involved in the oil business in Africa. They’ve encountered the Chinese and their way of doing business. Americans have a much stricter definition of the word “bribe” than do the Chinese.

  267. 267.

    NickT

    http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/jeb-bush-us-economy-needs-more-fertile-immigrants?ref=fpb

    Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush (R), a longtime immigration reform advocate, said Friday that because immigrants are “more fertile” they are a crucial source of labor for the United States.
    “Immigrants create far more businesses than native-born Americans,” Bush said at a Faith and Freedom Coalition conference, as quoted by the Washington Post. “Immigrants are more fertile, and they love families, and they have more intact families, and they bring a younger population. Immigrants create an engine of economic prosperity.”

  271. 271.

    patroclus

    I think Snowden is cuter than Greenwald, but ever since I found out that Snowden was a Paulista and therefore supported white supremacist newsletters and didn’t give a shit about China’s ruthless invasion and oppression of Tibet and its entry into the Korean war and its oppression of Hainan and its constant warmongering with Taiwan, I think you should pick Dear Leader’s pic as your avatar because he’s just a journalist.

  273. 273.

    pokeyblow

    @lojasmo: Do these violent visions occur to you non-stop or only occasionally?

    Is there any sort of cycle; are there good days and bad days?

    Lacking self-control basically amounts to lacking identity. There’s no reason to be overly optimistic, but there is a chance you can subsume your id into a more fully-formed personality.

  274. 274.

    replicnt6

    @? Martin:

    Take it to the agencies legal council. Take it to Congress. Take it to a court.

    Are you really going to stand there and tell me that you believe that any of those actions would get any movement on NSA overreach? When, for example, the fucking Supreme Court says you don’t have standing to sue the NSA because you can’t prove you were wiretapped because that program was classified?

    Trust that our system of government functions.

    That’s quite a tall order when it comes to overseeing the security apparatus. Have a gander at Wired’s writeup of head of the NSA: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/general-keith-alexander-cyberwar/all/

    I have to say, I’ve been amazed and dismayed at the reactions of the hang-em-high contingent of the BJ commentariat. Apparently, releasing information that we totally already knew six years ago, yawn, yawn, is the absolute worst crime ever.

  275. 275.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    @NickT:

    Awwww, those fun lovin’ Deltas; workin’ and breedin’, breedin’ and workin’. And we don’t even have to pay for Bokanovskification.

  276. 276.

    Cassidy

    @Corner Stone: Only because Texas is big enough to comfortably host all of them. I’m not talking about exiling all Texans with a bunch of shit heads.

    I’m down with Alaska too, but I’d really hate to see what they’d do to the preserved environment up there.

  277. 277.

    Corner Stone

    @Violet:

    They’ve encountered the Chinese and their way of doing business. Americans have a much stricter definition of the word “bribe” than do the Chinese.

    It’s not just in Africa. Businesses based in the US have made it impossible to do business in some areas of MENA due to the financial regulation of what we would consider bribes. But in parts of the world it’s showing respect or acknowledgment, and not “necessarily” something dirty or underhanded.

  278. 278.

    catclub

    @raven: “Sandpebbles where the commies”
    I think it is supposed to take place in 1926. Were Commies in charge enough somewhere in China, then?

  280. 280.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Elie:

    I think its apalling and disgraceful that he and that Snowden took it upon themselves to decide what as dangerous or not.

    Josh Marshall raised a similar concern–that these calls need to be made by duly elected governments, not by some private citizen turned whistleblower.

    The problem I have with that argument is that excessive secrecy itself already breaks the loop of democratic accountability. It’s a classic catch-22: we can’t be sufficiently informed as citizens to elect officials who handle this well, if we have no way of even knowing what they’re up to. How can the citizenry of a democratic country ever find out that their government is abusing secrecy if the abuse itself stays secret?

    Snowden may very well not be the ideal figure you want making these calls. Maybe nobody is. But the proper solution is really not to have such a huge secret sector of government.

    Rather than moping about the inevitability of all this, I think it might be interesting to look at past episodes in which abusive secret government actually got dialed back a little. How did the Palmer raids end? (Maybe not much of that was actually secret.) COINTELPRO (to the extent that it ever ended)? I know approximately how Nixon got taken down.

  281. 281.

    NickT

    @replicnt6:

    Releasing old information (admittedly in a rabidly self-promoting and misleading manner) isn’t the issue. Where Snowden crossed the line is his transparent attempt to sell intelligence to China and his evident willingness to jeopardize American operatives. Greenwald’s just a technically illiterate blowhard who can’t admit that he got the key part of the whole story wrong.

  284. 284.

    Mandalay

    @? Martin:

    Trust that our system of government functions.

    You should consider what happened to Thomas Drake, who exposed the NSA’s circumvention of FISA, before making that preposterous proposal.

  285. 285.

    joes527

    @gbear: You know who else was down with that war?

    If you answered “almost everyone in power and all their little sycophants” then you would be correct.

    Look. I was against the war since before it started, but if we are going to use “supported the war in Iraq” as the red line of who is/isn’t acceptable, then we will need to throw a good part of the Democratic party under the bus with the Republicans.

    I’d much rather use “supports keeping Guantanimo open” as the red line. That way we can throw almost everyone under the bus, and feel _even_more_ superior

  286. 286.

    Comrade Dread

    @replicnt6: No. I’m just tired of trying to gin up the self-righteous outrage required to treat something we all knew about 6 years ago like its the most important thing ever.

    You’re pissed about it? Great. Call your Congressman. Call your Senator. Call the White House and demand that they pass a law that repeals the laws they’ve already passed on the matter. Pissed that they tell you to go pound sand? Great. Run for office or help another candidate who shares your beliefs on civil liberties vs. the security state. I’ll probably vote for him.

  287. 287.

    Flying Squirrel Girl

    @Violet: I spent 5 years in Costa Rica, and while I was there China offered to build a brand new sports stadium in San Jose for the Costa Rican people! Free of charge! It ended up consuming part of the largest park, had something like 25,000 seats and 1200 parking places, and best of all, Costa Ricans were not able to do any of the work — the Chinese brought in all their own labor.

  288. 288.

    Forum Transmitted Disease

    Why won’t you name the country?

    @Mandalay: Post your real name and full address in the comments and I’ll mail it to you :)

  289. 289.

    Violet

    @Corner Stone: Yes exactly. The strict no bribes rules are good in principle but on the ground they make things difficult for US companies. As for Africa, the US is far behind China in relationships there. I believe this is going to be. Big problem for the Us in the relatively near future as Chinese labor becomes too expensive and African labor is the next frontier.

  292. 292.

    Emma

    @replicnt6: Not me. From the beginning I’ve argued that there was nothing new in the original story. Those of us with an interest knew the online metadata sweeps were happening at least since 2006. But what he gave the Chinese and what he supposedly still can give them is another whole kettle of fish.

    I don’t give a damn if you’re the second coming of MLK (which he isn’t by a country mile). If your idea of “exposing the truth” is to turn over you own country’s classified materials to a country whose idea of “freedom” and “truth” is to mow down their own citizens with tanks, you have a credibility problem.

  296. 296.

    replicnt6

    @NickT:

    Releasing old information (admittedly in a rabidly self-promoting and misleading manner) isn’t the issue.

    My point wasn’t that releasing already-known information was bad, it was that it is not entirely consistent to for people to be saying “we totally already knew all of this, but putting it out there (again) is a horrible crime”.

    Where Snowden crossed the line is his transparent attempt to sell intelligence to China and his evident willingness to jeopardize American operatives.

    You keep asserting that he’s selling intelligence to China, but if you’ve provided any actual evidence to this effect other than your own supposition, I’ve missed it. Also, any jeopardy that American operatives might be placed in by his release of information.

    If his aim was to sell secrets to China, where would GG et al fit in?

  297. 297.

    Corner Stone

    @Emma:

    But what he gave the Chinese and what he supposedly still can give them is another whole kettle of fish.

    What did he give them?
    And if he’s the poseur so many here are angrily claiming in thread after thread, what can he supposedly still give them?

  298. 298.

    replicnt6

    @Comrade Dread:

    You’re pissed about it? Great. Call your Congressman. Call your Senator. Call the White House…

    You know, we wouldn’t know anything about these programs now or years ago if people hadn’t been leaking information about them. Leaking to the press. I’m pretty sure we haven’t learned a great deal about the surveillance state from our duly elected officials.

  300. 300.

    patroclus

    @NickT: If Snowden had just resigned and released some NSA information, he would have been fired and had his security clearance revoked, but I doubt if there would have been any prosecution. It’s the flying to the PRC and offering to sell them classified info that has gotten him into legal trouble.

    I used to live in Hong Kong and the idea that the PRC is some sort of libertarian nirvana is somewhat mistaken. It’s a one-party state with virtually no rule of law, no free press, no freedom of expression and no elections. There is no presumption of innocence, no prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures, no rights to fair trials, virtually no basic commercial law , no intellectual property protection in addition to no Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Bribery and corruption are rampant and the PLA’s concerns trump any others. Has Snowden flying there turned libertarians into myopic China-lovers with no sense of reality?

  301. 301.

    Anna in PDX

    @NickT: Maybe the Federal govt can ask for personal citizen donations in order to ship the detainees to Yemen? I’d rather donate to that than to a political party, seriously.

  304. 304.

    Comrade Dread

    @replicnt6: Yeah, and I haven’t said a word against Greenwald or Snowden other than that we should be just as critical on what they tell us as we are about what the government tells us.

  305. 305.

    Soonergrunt

    @patroclus: “Has Snowden flying there turned libertarians into myopic China-lovers with no sense of reality?”
    They already were that. You can just add it to the list of things that Snowden has made into public knowledge.

  306. 306.

    NickT

    @replicnt6:

    Why do you think Snowden is giving interviews in Chinese newspapers in which he very deliberately mentions having information about US secret service operations and operatives?

    And no, I don’t think Greenwald is in on Snowden’s other plans. Greenwald wanted a big, sexy scoop to make himself look good and highlight the cause of the liberty for which he so bravely fought from the pleasantly remote safety of Brazil. He got that by trumpeting his ignorance of the key part of the story as loudly as possible – and is now desperately trying to maintain his position as the story falls apart more with every day. I’d guess he’s starting to panic as Snowden looks increasingly unstable and dishonest, but Glenn’s a survivor and he’ll be just fine in the long run.

  307. 307.

    Corner Stone

    @different-church-lady: Unlike the threats Cassidy keeps so coyly levelling at other commenters here, I have never suggested outing someone’s IRL aspect was acceptable in any way.
    So you can go fuck yourself for that bullshit.

  308. 308.

    jamick6000

    i love how all anybody has to do to get all the commenters on this web-site to FREAK OUT is write the word “libertarian” … i don’t get it. they’re loud but there’s not many of them.

  309. 309.

    replicnt6

    @patroclus:

    If Snowden had just resigned and released some NSA information, he would have been fired and had his security clearance revoked, but I doubt if there would have been any prosecution.

    Oh, yeah, totally. The security agencies never, ever go after former employees for releasing information. You’re kidding, right?

  310. 310.

    Elie

    @replicnt6:

    That is a challenge for sure. I guess the remedy then is just not to worry about such trivialities and just dump whatever. Woops — didnt mean to release the command for reversing the baffles to the CDC hot lab ! Oh well, what could go wrong? No one is going to be able to tell what that is, right?

    Humility. Humility is the first needed character trait of any whistleblower….. Not self aggrandizement and notoriety. The issue released must be associated with a direct consequence.

  312. 312.

    NickT

    @patroclus:

    Absolutely. What people keep failing to grasp is why Snowden has been yelling to the Chinese world via his interviews that he has a substantial amount of valuable US secret service data. The key word here is valuable.

  314. 314.

    NickT

    @replicnt6:

    What would you expect businesses to do to a former employee who tried to sell their secrets? What would you expect a private citizen to do if an ex-spouse broke a confidentiality agreement?

    Why should Snowden expect to be exempt from retaliation after betraying the trust of his employers and, in pretty short order, offering to betray his country to the Chinese?

  316. 316.

    Anna in PDX

    @AnonPhenom: Ha, I have been thinking the same thing (always wanting to switch it off when I am on this site from my Ipad) but I wasn’t thinking it in Lundbergh’s voice…

  317. 317.

    srv

    @Corner Stone:

    And if he’s the poseur so many here are angrily claiming in thread after thread, what can he supposedly still give them?

    Well damn you and all your pointy head logic.

  318. 318.

    replicnt6

    @NickT:

    Why do you think Snowden is giving interviews in Chinese newspapers in which he very deliberately mentions having information about US secret service operations and operatives?

    Oh, yeah. That’s totally how you go about sell information to foreign intelligence services.

    The other possible, perhaps very unlikely, interpretation is a) he’s in fucking China, so that’s the fucking press that’s going to be there to interview him, and b) he’s got more information and wants everyone to know it. Because he probably is as narcissistic as everyone here thinks he is.

  319. 319.

    Corner Stone

    @patroclus:

    It’s the flying to the PRC and offering to sell them classified info that has gotten him into legal trouble.

    Could you please point to anything that includes him saying he intends to sell, or has sold, classified info?

  320. 320.

    NickT

    @Corner Stone:

    @Corner Stone:

    Snowden’s telling the Chinese in his interviews that he has a bundle of very sensitive secret service information.

    You think he’s planning to yell “April Fool!” when the Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó Guójiā Ānquánbù or their colleagues ask for further details?

  321. 321.

    Comrade Dread

    @Shakezula: In all fairness to the GOP, the idea of being the catcher made them all feel uncomfortable and icky for some reason, so they were bound to lose with no one guarding home plate.

  323. 323.

    Forum Transmitted Disease

    If you name the country the interwebs could track you personally down?
    Wow. You’re a very powerful person.

    @Corner Stone: Share too much and that becomes child’s play.

    That douche “Ted and Hellen” that everyone here loves so much? He was a little too stupid with a few things he posted a while back. I’ve got his address, phone, a list of all of his relatives, his social security number, his two last employers, his birthday and if I wanted to dig a little harder, any criminal history he might have.

    I’m not going to drop his dox because that’s simply not cool, but it was a wake-up call as to how one stupid comment could wreck your life. So I’m careful. You don’t get to know where I’ve traveled. End of discussion.

  324. 324.

    patroclus

    @Soonergrunt: It’s just bizarre reading some of things upthread about how the PRC is some sort of bastion of liberty! I like China and the many many Chinese people I’ve met and made friends with, and a LOT of progress has been made since 1978 and, so far, they’ve adhered to the 50 years “way of life” provision in the Joint Declaration regarding Hong Kong fairly well, but Snowden and his fans are seriously out to lunch if they’re now defending the PRC as superior to the U.S. when it comes to liberty.

  327. 327.

    replicnt6

    @Elie:

    Humility. Humility is the first needed character trait of any whistleblower….. Not self aggrandizement and notoriety. The issue released must be associated with a direct consequence.

    So, if I understand correctly, nothing he’s released so far is particularly damaging, especially in light of how we all knew everything already, but he displays insufficient humility. Gotcha. Can you perhaps throw together some diagnostic criteria a la DSM that we can use to evaluate someone’s suitability as a whistleblower?

  329. 329.

    Corner Stone

    @Forum Transmitted Disease: Straight ballin’ dawg!
    It’s also really useful that John G Cole completely fucking outed him to every one here as well.
    Probably made your sleuthing a little easier, 007.

  330. 330.

    geg6

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    I have no idea who this Cumberbatch dude is (I’ve never seen him before I saw him in Star Trek). But he does nothing at all for me. In fact, less than nothing.

    I’ll keep Clooney, thank you very much. ;-)

  331. 331.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    @Forum Transmitted Disease:

    That douche “Ted and Hellen” that everyone here loves so much? He was a little too stupid with a few things he posted a while back.

    Was that the link to his blog post about Burning Man (when he was commenting under a different nym)?

  334. 334.

    replicnt6

    @NickT:

    What would you expect businesses to do to a former employee who tried to sell their secrets? What would you expect a private citizen to do if an ex-spouse broke a confidentiality agreement?

    Of course the intelligence agencies would go after him. I was replying to patroclus’s suggestion that if Snowden had leaked his way, i.e. quit and leaked, he wouldn’t have been prosecuted.

    Also, I’m pretty sure you don’t go to jail for violating confidentiality agreements with private parties, so that’s not the best analogy.

  336. 336.

    NickT

    @patroclus:

    I’ll say this – a while ago I went along as part of a research trip to China, going round a bunch of Chinese villages and documenting old houses and cultural materials in general. We are talking here about stuff relating mostly to 16th/17th century China, not the nuclear launch codes or the latest in fuel-cell technology. Well, the local authorities were not happy at all about our presence and we had the local police turn up several days in a row just to check up on what we were doing. I like the Chinese people I know very much – but anyone who thinks that China doesn’t very actively surveil its people and foreigners in the country is simply deranged. Hell, they spend a fortune on the Great Firewall and controlling keywords on Sina Weibo, to name only two.

  337. 337.

    Mandalay

    @patroclus:

    If Snowden had just resigned and released some NSA information, he would have been fired and had his security clearance revoked, but I doubt if there would have been any prosecution.

    We have had thousands of uninformed comments about the Snowden issue, but that one takes the biscuit.

  338. 338.

    NickT

    @replicnt6:

    It’s a perfectly legitimate analogy. You might not go to jail, but you most certainly would face as much legal retaliation as the injured party cared to bring to bear. Your argument here was about retaliation overall, not just about the specific secondary issue of jail time. My point is that Snowden isn’t some special case just because he wraps himself in some gauzy libertarian platitudes.

  339. 339.

    Emma

    @Corner Stone: According to Greenwald, your buddy has a lot more stashed away. Not only that but the man himself hinted that he had names of operatives. And if you believe the pro-communist paper ( with a history of firing anti-communist employees) he’s talking to is simply helping a “dissident” expose “the truth” you’re an idealist on par with St. Francis of Assisi.

  340. 340.

    Elie

    @replicnt6:

    So ok — ‘splain to me what the character and entegrity expectations should be for someone with security clearance? Are they considered to only have provisional ethics related to their work? What kind of people take responsibility for protecting our country from a range of threats and vulnerabilities and then throw all such considerations aside — exposing things they truly might not have a clue about outside of specialized knowledge or context? Its like setting up a contract and immediately planning to breach it…Who does that and why should we trust their assurances to us of their integrity.

  343. 343.

    patroclus

    @Corner Stone: I guess you’re right – he hasn’t said anything about “selling” the laptop with the classified info in it; maybe he just intends to give it to them or have it confiscated “unwillingly.” Either way – he flew to the PRC. Why did he do that? Can you point to anything as to why he did that while in posession of classified info that he pilfered from his job? Certainly, it warrants investigation (and prosecution if warranted).

    Like I said, if he hadn’t have done that, it’s a different story Now, are you seriously going to defend the PRC’s record on liberty – I would be very interested in seeing that; especially because I am reasonably familiar with Hong Kong’s legal history and current legal status.

  344. 344.

    Corner Stone

    @NickT: Hmmm, visited China… at some point in the last five decades…
    Got it. Hello Mr. Brian Butterfield of Cleveland, OH.

  346. 346.

    NickT

    @Corner Stone:

    Steady down, kid. We wouldn’t want you to blow your server stack in your excitement over galloping off down another blind alley.

  348. 348.

    Corner Stone

    @patroclus: Only commenting that the same individuals who are scrupulously fish farming every word and phrase in the existing reporting seem to have absolutely no issue with making shit up out of whole cloth and declaring it the reality.

  349. 349.

    Mandalay

    @replicnt6:

    …but he displays insufficient humility

    In all the Snowden threads there is little discussion of the information he has released. It’s mostly about attacking the motives and character of Snowden and Greenwald.

    And it’s happening in the media and the government as well. If you don’t like the message then shoot the messengers in any way you can. Talk about Snowden’s ex-girlfriend being a “pole dancer” (rather than a ballet dancer), or how Snowden is a
    “high-school dropout”, or how Snowden is getting paid by China, or urge that Greenwald should be prosecuted, or comment on his sexuality.

    Do anything except talk about the issues raised by the information that has been released.

  352. 352.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @Corner Stone:

    But in parts of the world it’s showing respect or acknowledgment, and not “necessarily” something dirty or underhanded.

    It may be showing respect or acknowledgment in some places but it is always dirty and underhanded. It is a way for government officials to turn public goods (usually regulation in some form) into private enrichment by ensuring that foreign companies fork over a part of what they’re willing to pay to get the business to an official personally rather than to the national treasury.

    Put me down as a big fan of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Does it hurt American businesses sometimes? Sure. (Though not always; it is sometimes a way for a company to explain that, hey, it’s nothing personal, but we can’t offer you bribes.) But is this business you really want?

  353. 353.

    Elie

    @replicnt6:

    Humility is about having a healthy respect for your limitations and the likelyhood of unintended consequences. And some fucking fear or concern about that. Contrast with self promoting bragging about your broad access including the ability to email the President. Does that help?

  354. 354.

    Corner Stone

    @NickT: When, exactly, did you decide to become an agent of a foreign power? Was it during your trip to China for “research”? Was it before then? What did they have on you?
    Was it the sex? The drugs? The money? Why else would you run off to to the PRC?

  355. 355.

    different-church-lady

    @Mandalay:

    Do anything except talk about the issues raised by the information that has been released.

    Let’s talk about that. I’ll start: is the information trustworthy?

  356. 356.

    replicnt6

    @NickT: Actually, my argument was simply that patroclus’s suggestion for how Snowden should have leaked classified information was profoundly misguided. It was hardly about “retaliation overall”. But, since we’re having a fun argument, I’ll point out that a party to a confidentiality breach would need to show damages. The security agencies don’t need to show damages. I think there was a case of an ex-CIA officer being criminally prosecuted for publishing a book without having had it vetted by the CIA first. They made no claim that he’d actually released any classified information.

    Your argument was “what do you expect?” My argument is “yes, that is exactly what I expect”. As opposed to what patroclus expects.

  358. 358.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    @Corner Stone:

    Manning to Assange to Shamir to Lukashenko. Fish farm every word before you go to press or end up a participant in that which you abhor.

  359. 359.

    Corner Stone

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): No, I want our companies to follow the law. But I also see the practice of buying a delegation an expensive pen, for example, as simple courtesy.
    It’s a slippery slope argument, to be sure. And I expect our companies to follow the law even when it’s not convenient.

  362. 362.

    different-church-lady

    @NickT: Apparently there’s this second means of ingress that everyone keeps babbling about.

  364. 364.

    Corner Stone

    @different-church-lady:

    I’ll start: is the information trustworthy?

    Good question. If it is not trustworthy then why are DNI Clapper, Gen Alexander and members of Congress so heated about burning the source?
    It doesn’t mean ipso facto cogito ante that the information *has* to be trustworthy. But if it doesn’t have some validty then why are they burning their panties over it?

  365. 365.

    Elie

    @Mandalay:

    Well who is stopping them from highlighting some of these issues? Every time I hear from one of these guys they aretalking about how important they are and how much stuff they are going to be releasing soon…. Nothing at all but about the importance or relevance of what has been released. Its hard to talk about yourself all the time and want someone to date you.

  366. 366.

    pokeyblow

    If the pertinent dissidents had only managed their humility better, the Iron Curtain would have fallen in ’56.

  367. 367.

    patroclus

    @NickT: I was once traveling near Guangzhou with a Chinese friend and I was asking him about what the various buildings were, and one of them was the office of the local mayor and I told him that in the States, that I could go into that building and tell them exactly what I thought of the way he was doing his job and my friend got all scared (thinking that I might actually do that) and he told me that that was unthinkable – that people had no such rights in the PRC and that they could only dream of such things.. The actual Chinese people who actually live there know very well what the PRC’s history with liberty is and it isn’t positive.

    To see American libertarians arguing that it is the paragon of liberty is unbelievable.

  369. 369.

    replicnt6

    @Elie:

    So ok — ‘splain to me what the character and integrity expectations should be for someone with security clearance?

    Well, I think that’s a question for the agencies granting security clearance, not me. And they seem to do a pretty good job of it, because we don’t get that many leakers or spies given the vast number of people with security clearance.

    I get that you think Snowden should be hung from a tall tree. I’m just a little confused about how his case might differ from other whistleblowing cases that you might find acceptable. So far, all I’ve gotten is his lack of humility. And I’m proposing that that is an awfully subjective criterion for decided which whistleblowers should be hung and which not.

  371. 371.

    patroclus

    @Corner Stone: So that comment is your entire defense of the PRC’s record on liberty?????!!!!!! Seriously, do you think the PRC has a good record on liberty? Why or why not? Please be specific.

  372. 372.

    Mnemosyne

    @Mandalay:

    Talk about Snowden’s ex-girlfriend being a “pole dancer” (rather than a ballet dancer), or how Snowden is a
    “high-school dropout”, or how Snowden is getting paid by China, or urge that Greenwald should be prosecuted, or comment on his sexuality. (emphasis mine)

    I love how you so-casually drop that one in as completely irrelevant information. Can you conceive of the idea that China might be interested in our intelligence networks and information gathering in ways that would not affect the constitutional rights of US citizens? And that perhaps Snowden had access to that kind of information?

  373. 373.

    NickT

    @patroclus:

    It was very noticeable when we were there that most people outside our official contacts were extremely hesitant to spend time talking with us and there was a distinctly unenthusiastic reaction when we asked if they had any street maps of the villages we were researching. The only exception to the general unwillingness to associate with the foreigners was the children who loved having their pictures taken and scurried around us with great glee.

  374. 374.

    Elie

    @Corner Stone:

    Maybe part of it is the how important breaking that contract between people who work with our secrets. Think about it — you seem to think that only being upset about the damage is why they are all bitching. We have a whole group of people entrusted with our safety in security through managing key information about our strengths and vulnerabilities . If you are running these organizations and using their services, woudnt you be upset that they might not be trustworthy? Naw — you wouldnt care, right? Cool with you –

  375. 375.

    replicnt6

    @Elie:

    Does that help?

    Hmmm, not really. We’re going to need some really objective criteria that we can use in a court of law to determine whether someone is a suitable whistleblower. Because we’ve well established here that it is the personality of the perpetrator that determines the crime, not the content of the disclosure.

  376. 376.

    NickT

    @Mnemosyne:

    It is marvelous to watch people on here asserting that Snowden’s very public discussion – in Chinese newspapers! – of the secret service data on operations and operatives that he stole is entirely innocent and should not be held against him because – you know – REAL ISSUES!

  377. 377.

    Mnemosyne

    @replicnt6:

    I’m just a little confused about how his case might differ from other whistleblowing cases that you might find acceptable. So far, all I’ve gotten is his lack of humility.

    And, y’know, the whole “fleeing to China and spilling his guts to them” part of it. That’s what’s giving a lot of us pause. Somehow you guys keep eliding over that, or claiming that it was totally innocent that he fled to China because only the Chinese could protect him from the Big Bad US Government.

    You know what most people call folks who take classified information from the US and turn it over to other countries? Spies.

  378. 378.

    Corner Stone

    @patroclus: I think you should look into some local community colleges to see if they have night classes for remedial reading 101.
    Try again.

  379. 379.

    ruemara

    @Soonergrunt: That’s a hell of a hotel fee. I hate the fact that the details of this will not be discussed, but the betrayal aspect will be front and center.

  380. 380.

    NickT

    @patroclus:

    If Cornie starts yapping at you, just ask him about a “server stack bay” and watch him start ranting about something else.

  381. 381.

    Corner Stone

    @Elie: But that is simply NOT what they are testifying to Congress about. They are repeatedly saying it’s caused great harm, very damaging, grave consequences.
    Their testimony is not about what you’re saying here.

  382. 382.

    Corner Stone

    If this is nothing new, something we all knew, yawn yawn yawn. Since 2006 or before. Does anyone here then think the Chinese didn’t also know all that info?
    It can’t be both. It can’t be a revelation to China 7 years later and at the same time absolutely nothing to be yawning about because we all knew it.

  383. 383.

    Elie

    @replicnt6:

    Interesting — you don’t have any thoughts about what the criteria for those working to manage sensitive information but you fuckiing support the people who breach this trust to be the sole arbiters of what should be released based on the public’s right to know… HA! So you think the government agencies do a great job in picking those with that key access but don’t think that the government should have sensitive information…

    Snowden is not a whistleblower. By definition a whistleblower reveals corruption or criminalty. I havent heard that he is shwoing that. He is just a common leaker — Some would consider him to have committted treason. I think that should be vigorously investigated and he should be charged if it meets that legal criteria.

  385. 385.

    patroclus

    @Corner Stone: And I think you should state your views on the relative level of liberty in the PRC as compared to the U.S. Please go into as much detail as you like and please be specific. I promise to read it with interest and accord it all the respect that it deserves. Why did Snowden fly to the PRC? Please be specific.

  386. 386.

    NickT

    @Corner Stone:

    You may have missed this amid the vast pile of matters of which you are ignorant, but Snowden has been claiming to know about much more than just PRISM – including secret service operations and operatives worldwide. That’s what he’s been talking up in the Chinese newspapers – and that’s the “new” information that annoys people and leads to accusations of imminent treason, not the tired surveillance state stuff that he used to hook Ron Paul and the liberty-junkies, but which we all knew or could have known about 5 years ago.

  387. 387.

    Corner Stone

    @NickT: Ok, fine. Then is he a poseur with no access and nothing about his story makes sense, or a valid threat to national security who could actually do what he claims?

  388. 388.

    LAC

    @Corner Stone: Oh for Christ sakes…you have moved the goal posts of this conversation so far out of the stadium that you struggling to get them under the awning of the nearby sports bar. You are beyond ridiculous.

  389. 389.

    Elie

    @Corner Stone:

    Ok — I get that. They will hammer on the issues that will help support the destruction of his reputation as any kind of “hero” and set up political support for the charge of treason. I still believe my point, while not their explicit interest is also core to this… you may disagree.

  390. 390.

    Corner Stone

    @patroclus: You’d like me to make a definitive pro-PRC liberty argument?
    Just want to make sure what insane request you’re making of me.
    Thanks

  391. 391.

    replicnt6

    @Mnemosyne:

    You know what most people call folks who take classified information from the US and turn it over to other countries? Spies.

    Right. Because talking to the press is equivalent to conspiring with a country’s intelligence apparatus. He’s not turning classified information over to other countries (as far as we know at this point). He’s fucking telling the world.

    When we have evidence that he’s actually working with the Chinese government, then I’ll be more than happy to dub him a spy. For the moment, he’s a leaker.

  392. 392.

    Corner Stone

    @LAC: Don’t you have a kitchen table you can talk to again tonight?
    You seem to enjoy that.

  393. 393.

    NickT

    @LAC:

    AFAIK he’s a journalist who does meticulous research. He’s done a lot of work investigating corporate scandals and wrote a pretty good book on Enron.

  394. 394.

    NickT

    @Corner Stone:

    Put it this way, if he’s bluffing the Chinese, he’s about to receive a very nasty education in just how fluffy and free they really are. It could be he’s crazy, it could be he’s lying to get attention, but he’s certainly done everything possible to suggest in recent days that he has significant secrets for sale. Feel free to explain how this benefits the American people or achieves greater liberty for them.

  397. 397.

    patroclus

    @NickT: I just want him to address a specific question about the respective levels of liberty in the PRC as compared to the U.S. And I want to know why he thinks Snowden flew to the PRC. And if he doesn’t know, I want to know whether he thinks that warrants investigation. He’s been asked this question several times (as have others) and he seems to be avoiding any sort of real answer.

  399. 399.

    LAC

    @Corner Stone: That depends – is yours available? Along with the other pieces of inanimate objects in your home that would probably makes more sense than you right now?

  400. 400.

    Corner Stone

    @NickT: But the main thrust of all the articles and quotes you’ve been repeatedly posting indicate he’s full of shit. His story is crumbling. He fed GG a sack of shit with bogus terminology.
    Either that is true, in which case who cares what he’s saying in the paper, or it isn’t true.
    And if it isn’t true, and he has something damaging then that would indicate he’s the real deal and the things he told GG were the truth.
    It’s difficult to see how he can be both at the same time.

  401. 401.

    NickT

    @patroclus:

    What, Cornie avoid specific questions?!

    Oh the shock and horror!

    LAC’s invocation of the diningroom table is pretty much on the money where Cornie is concerned.

  405. 405.

    replicnt6

    @Elie:

    Interesting — you don’t have any thoughts about what the criteria for those working to manage sensitive information but you fuckiing support the people who breach this trust to be the sole arbiters of what should be released based on the public’s right to know… HA!

    a) I don’t give a shit about the psychological profiles of people in a position to leak classified information, or people that do leak classified information, I’m interested in what they leak,
    b) I don’t “support” the people who “breach this trust”. I support our knowing about the extraordinary surveillance that we are being subjected to.

    So you think the government agencies do a great job in picking those with that key access but don’t think that the government should have sensitive information…

    Of course the government is going to have sensitive and classified information. Shit tons of it, in fact. I’d like there to be some oversight, though.

    Snowden is not a whistleblower. By definition a whistleblower reveals corruption or criminalty.

    How about unconstitutionality? The constitutionality of these programs has not been tested, and it’s not at all clear how it would fare if tested.

    Some would consider him to have committted treason. I think that should be vigorously investigated and he should be charged if it meets that legal criteria.

    Some would be fucking idiots. Treason happens to be defined in the constitution. Unless you’re working with an enemy expressly against the United States, it’s not treason. Since I’m pretty sure we don’t have any outstanding declarations of war outstanding at this time, I think it’d be hard to fit the definition of treason.

  409. 409.

    NickT

    @Corner Stone:

    It’s perfectly possible that he didn’t fully understand what he had (or didn’t have) in PRISM but sold it to Greenwald anyway in pursuit of some half-baked quest for “freedom”, while at the same time stealing what he thought/hoped would be good stuff for a foreign market. The two possibilities can coexist, you know. Maybe the guy knows the real value of the other stuff he has and was cynical enough to dump PRISM on Greenwald to make himself look more heroic, maybe he’s fooled himself completely and has a big handful of nothing as well as some misunderstood stuff about PRISM. The point here is that he didn’t stop at giving Greenwald PRISM, but then fled to Hong Kong and has been talking up how much data he has on what the US has been doing around the world. You can certainly try and present this set of decisions as the result of his devotion to American freedom, but it’s a pretty hard case to make.

  411. 411.

    NickT

    @patroclus:

    He’s not even very interested in those. He’s just a strange little internet critter who gets his kicks from yelling randomly at people and then running off when they school him about his latest mini-obsession. He’ll pop up tonight as if none of this discussion had happened.

  412. 412.

    Corner Stone

    @NickT: So he actually is both then? A bullshit artist doof who mindfucked GG with garbage nonsense and at the same time a powerful insider with access who knows how valuable the rest of what he’s talking up “and trying to sell” is?

  413. 413.

    Corner Stone

    @patroclus: Hey man. Let’s face this straight on for a second. You’ve demanded I argue a defense of the comparative liberty between the PRC and the US.
    Please show me where, in any comment, I made any reference to anything even remotely related to what you are demanding I somehow defend.

  414. 414.

    NickT

    @Corner Stone:

    Let’s start at the very beginning/
    A very good place to start./
    When you read you begin with ABC…

    Let me know when you’ve got those first three letters down and we’ll move on to the basic reasoning ability unit in due course.

  415. 415.

    Corner Stone

    @NickT: So, you’ve got nothing then? No repetitive pedantry now?
    C’mon, I’m sure you’ve got something you can try to distract away. Or are ABC’s where you’re going tonight?

  417. 417.

    Mnemosyne

    @replicnt6:

    Because talking to the press is equivalent to conspiring with a country’s intelligence apparatus. He’s not turning classified information over to other countries (as far as we know at this point). He’s fucking telling the world.

    You seem to be under the strange impression that China has a free press and that everything being published in the Hong Kong papers has not been vetted and approved by the Chinese government.

    But, hey, keep clinging to the idea that Snowden is telling the Hong Kong papers everything he knows and isn’t having side conversations with the Chinese intelligence services, telling them everything he knows about the US’s surveillance of foreign governments, which is the actual reason the US intelligence community is running around with their hair on fire right now, not the bogus “PRISM” information. One of us will eventually be proved right.

  419. 419.

    Mnemosyne

    @replicnt6:

    Unless you’re working with an enemy expressly against the United States, it’s not treason.

    You may want to talk to Jonathan Pollard or Robert Hanssen about whether or not it’s treason to give US state secrets out when there’s not an active war on. The US government seemed to take a slightly different view of their cases than you seem to.

    Let me guess, Pollard and Hanssen weren’t spies, they were just pioneers in making sure that information is free!

  420. 420.

    patroclus

    @Corner Stone: I asked you legitimate questions – you ignored them. I will no longer pay any attention to anything you say like I used to.

  421. 421.

    Elie

    @replicnt6:

    I dont think there needs to be a declaration of war, to declare something treason. Where did you get that?

    And your lame response about the definition of whistleblower — that the whistleblower should be the arbiter of constitutionality. Well that’s easy. I am Joe dokes and I am in charge of information that might be dangerous to release because if contains information that puts our country at risk but I think its unconstitutional to have this kind of information about our enemies or our allies so I will just dump it our there cause its my judgment about its “constitutionality”. My “bullshit meter” is pegged at 20….

  423. 423.

    AxelFoley

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    How many wars of aggression or assassinations has China carried out lately? How many countries has it bombed? Now compare that to the Federal Government.

    If you’re so fond of China, why don’t you skip your monkey ass on over there like your idol Snowden did?

  424. 424.

    Keith G

    The IOKIADDI vibe is so strong ’round here. Maybe this President will make a U turn on his policies in this area to match his words, but I am beginning to wonder if we have gone too far through the looking glass.

  425. 425.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @Mnemosyne: Pollard and Hanssen were spies. However, neither of them were charged with or convicted of treason. Treason is a very specific crime and neither of them were guilty of it. That hasn’t prevented either of them from serving life sentences, though, because there are plenty of other laws they did violate that have big penalties.

  426. 426.

    Anna in PDX

    @Mnemosyne: YES! Ask anyone who understands about this. China may not be “at war” with us any more than Israel is but Pollard is a foreign agent who sold secret US info to a foreign power and is therefore a traitor. If Snowden did the same he is the same as Pollard. I am sort of hoping against hope that he has nothing real to tell the Chinese, nothing that actually gives them info that will damage anything, because I assume they already know that we try to hack them just like they try to hack us (espionage between nations, it happens, hello) and that he has not told them anything that could get people killed.

    Another issue about this dumb distinction between what kind of countries you choose to sell secrets to is that countries, once they have the info, can give/sell it to other countries! And they do that! Pollard’s info cost us a lot. I hope he rots in jail.

    I am glad that Snowden’s PRISM non-bombshell woke a few more people up to what most of us already know, though. So I am kind of conflicted about him, but not about selling secrets to foreign powers, that is totally and completely shameless and illegal and treasonous.

  427. 427.

    JWL

    Avatar?

    I assume you hold Greenwald and Snowden in a certain contempt, Mister Mix.

    For all I know, in an uncertain contempt.

    Along with those who admire their actions in exposing what they have.

    But why?

    I mean, had Dick Cheney and Charles Krauthammer broke this story, I would have applauded them for it.

    (And I look forward to pissing on Cheney’s grave, and believe the bitter Krauthammer would have been well served has his wheelchair bound ass been kicked somewhere along the line).

    Why the attitude about the messengers?

    Or is it the revelations itself you resent having been broadcast?

  428. 428.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @Anna in PDX: Be careful of conflating the colloquial meaning of “treason” with the legal definition. We can argue about whether Pollard and Snowden fall under the former (or more accurately, you can argue about it; I’m not that interested in a semantic debate about it) but they clearly do not fall under the latter.

  430. 430.

    nineone

    Late, nonetheless, what fun!

    I think they are both totes dreamy.

    @The Friendly Libertarian: What! Why can’t we have those things! Clearly this is government overreach. Help, help! I’m being repressed! I blame Obama. Inpeach!

  431. 431.

    Mnemosyne

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):

    However, neither of them were charged with or convicted of treason. Treason is a very specific crime and neither of them were guilty of it.

    Both of them took a plea bargain, so while you can say they were not convicted of treason, I’m not sure you can claim that they don’t fit the constitutional definition of treason just because that charge was not part of their respective plea bargains.

    Here’s the actual definition:

    Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

    The argument people were making above was that we actually have to be in a declared war for a charge of treason, but that doesn’t seem to be the case since the Lincoln conspirators were convicted of treason after his assassination. The last US citizen to be convicted of treason was in 1952, so it’s not at all a common charge.

  432. 432.

    Keith G

    @Elie:
    1. At the very least, we are seeing a continuation if not an enlargement of many components of the security/surveillance state.
    2. Transparency and the over-use of “Top Secret” do not seem to have improved over all.
    3. Despite direct words and other implications to make improvements in the issues above, this President has not been leading on these issues.
    4. I hope he will aggressively start. His leadership here would make a difference.
    5. Just because a historically important Democrat is in office at this moment doesn’t mean we can afford not to fight against efforts that erode 2nd and 4th Amendment rights.

  433. 433.

    Corner Stone

    @patroclus: Honestly, I just disagree with you. I have been asking why people, with no evidence to point to, are claiming Snowden is “selling” secrets to China?
    And then you ask me to defend comparative liberties between the PRC and the US.
    Let’s reset this. What argument do you think I am making and what questions from that argument would you like me to defend or make a case for?
    This isn’t a polemic. I’m asking you to tell me what you believe my argument is, and what aspects of it I should consider moving forward.

    At #343 you said this:

    Like I said, if he hadn’t have done that, it’s a different story Now, are you seriously going to defend the PRC’s record on liberty – I would be very interested in seeing that; especially because I am reasonably familiar with Hong Kong’s legal history and current legal status.

    I had never said anything even remotely like that on this blog. Not just in this thread but in any thread. I, honestly and no bullshit, am confused as to why you think that question follows from any of my comments here?
    I am really and truly just baffled as to what you expect me to do.

  434. 434.

    replicnt6

    @Mnemosyne:

    You may want to talk to Jonathan Pollard or Robert Hanssen about whether or not it’s treason to give US state secrets out when there’s not an active war on.

    Yeah, well, I talked to them (not really) and they told me that they’d been charged under the Espionage Act. Not fucking charged with treason.

    You wanna talk espionage there might be room for discussion. If you want to talk treason, you’re a fucking idiot.

  435. 435.

    replicnt6

    @Mnemosyne: @Elie:

    I dont think there needs to be a declaration of war, to declare something treason. Where did you get that?

    The word “enemy” in the constitution.

    And your lame response about the definition of whistleblower — that the whistleblower should be the arbiter of constitutionality.

    But you think they should be arbiters of illegality or corruption? I’m unclear on why you think they’re better equipped to make that determination. Oh, yeah, they have suitable humility.

  436. 436.

    Anna in PDX

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): OK, point taken. I don’t like throwing around the term “treason” either, spies is good enough for me.

    Restatement of how I feel about people like Pollard: Selling information to foreign powers is a very bad thing for a citizen to do. People who do that are spies, and they are not “whistleblowers”. The foreign powers will use that info any way they see fit, whether or not they are at war with your country. And you may get people killed.

  437. 437.

    Mnemosyne

    @replicnt6:

    You wanna talk espionage there might be room for discussion. If you want to talk treason, you’re a fucking idiot.

    Oh, are you finally willing to talk about espionage rather than pretending it’s impossible? Great, let’s do that. Some other people here seem to find it impossible to think that Snowden fled to China with information unrelated to the story Greenwald wrote that the Chinese would nonetheless find interesting (like how the US spies on foreign governments).

  438. 438.

    Mnemosyne

    @replicnt6:

    The word “enemy” in the constitution.

    So the Soviets were never our enemies, because we never declared war on them? I’m sure that was a great comfort to Julius and Ethel Rosenberg as they were led to the electric chair.

  439. 439.

    Corner Stone

    And patroclus, your #371 here is so far divorced from anything I had previously said that I am not sure what to do next.

  440. 440.

    replicnt6

    You seem to be under the strange impression that China has a free press and that everything being published in the Hong Kong papers has not been vetted and approved by the Chinese government.

    So the fact that he’s talking to the Chinese press, whose content is overseen by their government, means he’s collaborating with the Chinese government by talking to their press? I think you’re just throwing shit at the wall.

    But, hey, keep clinging to the idea that Snowden is telling the Hong Kong papers everything he knows and isn’t having side conversations with the Chinese intelligence services, telling them everything he knows about the US’s surveillance of foreign governments, which is the actual reason the US intelligence community is running around with their hair on fire right now, not the bogus “PRISM” information. One of us will eventually be proved right.

    I’m not clinging to any fucking idea about Snowden. We don’t fucking know. You seem to feel you know that he’s talking to Chinese intelligence and giving them everything. I think if he were going to do that, he’d be doing it quietly. But we’re both speculating. One of us knows it’s just speculation, one of us doesn’t.

  441. 441.

    Mnemosyne

    @Keith G:

    Just because a historically important Democrat is in office at this moment doesn’t mean we can afford not to fight against efforts that erode 2nd and 4th Amendment rights.

    I’m hoping this is a typo, because I never had you pegged as a gun nut.

  442. 442.

    different-church-lady

    @Mnemosyne: Holy fuck, WHEN WILL SOMEONE INVENT THE INTERNET SO WE CAN ANSWER QUESTIONS LIKE THIS?!?

    –RETRACTED– Sorry, completely misread your post.

    They both plead guilty to charges of espionage. (Hanssen) (Pollard)

  444. 444.

    Keith G

    @Mnemosyne: Yeah, quite so. Thanks for pointing it out and the benefit of doubt. My former students would freak over such a typo.

    Long day in the salt mines.

  445. 445.

    Mnemosyne

    @replicnt6:

    So the fact that he’s talking to the Chinese press, whose content is overseen by their government, means he’s collaborating with the Chinese government by talking to their press?

    He said in those stories from Hong Kong that he’s also talking to officials from the Chinese government. Don’t take my word for it, take his.

    I’m not clinging to any fucking idea about Snowden. We don’t fucking know. You seem to feel you know that he’s talking to Chinese intelligence and giving them everything. I think if he were going to do that, he’d be doing it quietly. But we’re both speculating. One of us knows it’s just speculation, one of us doesn’t.

    As I said, time will tell. My opinion is, the likelihood that Snowden is not talking to the Chinese government is about as high as a US defector to Russia during the Cold War not talking to the Soviet government. It’s what governments do when people defect and bring information to them.

  446. 446.

    NickT

    @Mnemosyne:

    Give the useful idiots time and they’ll explain that Snowden’s flight to Hong Kong was motivated solely by his passion for dim sum.

  447. 447.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @Mnemosyne: No, “enemies” in terms of “adhering to their Enemies” pretty clearly means being at war with them. It is not necessarily a state actor; the Whiskey Rebellion produced a few treason convictions (although they were pardoned). In the case of the Lincoln conspirators, that enemy was the Confederacy. But there does have to be some sort of armed opposition to the U.S. government.

    If you don’t put some sort of restriction that “Enemies” be officially declared in some way, exactly how are you going to define it in court?

  448. 448.

    Keith G

    @NickT: I would think that it has a bit to do with staying out of the clink for as long as possible.

    There is no way he is not going down, and he knows that. His actions destroyed his life. There is no mulligan and there will not be a sympathetic jury (if it goes that route). But someday soon, what little of a life he has will complete its journey to shit. I hope he is able to eat and drink well while it lasts.

  450. 450.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @Mnemosyne: Much like Hanssen and Pollard, the Rosenbergs were never even charged with treason. Again, your examples don’t bolster your argument. Absent actual armed opposition to the United States, no one has ever been convicted of treason. So if you can connect Snowden to an overt act with the intent to assist al Qaeda you might be able to sustain a charge of treason. Without it, you can’t.

    In American law, treason is a *very* narrowly defined crime.

  451. 451.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @different-church-lady:
    1) You might note that Burr was acquitted of treason. (Granted, the specific reasoning was that there was no overt act rather than just forming intentions to act.)
    2) The charge was based upon the conspiracy being involved in an attempt to subvert the government of the United States in the southwest through armed rebellion. There is a lot of controversy as to whether or not those involved actually intended any such thing, but that was the charge. Again, armed opposition to the government by those who owe allegiance to the United States was involved.

  452. 452.

    different-church-lady

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): reading back, I realize I might be focused on a different item than you:

    The argument people were making above was that we actually have to be in a declared war for a charge of treason,

    It was in that light I was mentioning Burr — no declared war there, merely the hope of one.

    In the end it’s academic — the cry of “traitor” is of a colloquial nature, rather than a legal one. Yeah, maybe someone could figure out a way to cram it into the “War on Terror” framework, but I doubt anyone will try. Espionage will cover any attempts at prosecution well enough.

  453. 453.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @different-church-lady: Yeah. Not just Burr, but the Whiskey Rebellion and John Brown cases indicate that a declared war is not necessary for treason. In all those cases, though, there was armed and active rebellion against the United States involved, at least as charged, since the lack thereof is pretty much where the Burr case collapsed.

  454. 454.

    Anne Laurie

    @Mnemosyne:

    So the Soviets were never our enemies, because we never declared war on them? I’m sure that was a great comfort to Julius and Ethel Rosenberg as they were led to the electric chair.

    Oh, for fuck’s sake — are you defending the Rosenberg show trials now? Are you gonna embrace Tailgunner Ted Cruz when he explains that he has a list of firebaggers in the Congress, too also?

    You’re not a godsdamned idiot, and you’re not living inside the conservatarian bubble, so stop babbling their talking points.

  455. 455.

    WaynersT

    I’m all for exposing any government wrongdoing, but exaggerating claims does more damage than good. Coupled with the fact this guy sounds like he wants to be a wheeler dealer with China – something’s not right about all this. My personal experience with a couple of hard core libertarians is that they are absolutists and narcissists. They preach a ‘survival of the fittest’ political ideology because in their minds, they ARE the fittest. Two characteristics that seem to fit both Glenzilla and Snowden.

    Something is just off about this whole “leak” ……

  456. 456.

    eco2geek

    Well, it’s been fun, but this Mistermix guy’s ongoing invitations for the BJ commentariat to mock the NSA leaks (you know the information was wrong, simply because Glenn Greenwald was the reporter), coupled with DougJ’s invitation for people to take a shit on a guy who’s not only still a front pager, but ostensibly playing for the same team, has convinced me that it’s time to take Balloon Juice out of my browser bookmarks.

    It might be worthwhile if Mistermix actually had any real evidence that Snowden might be wrong, but a) what the fuck does he know about the NSA? The NSA stuff isn’t a matter of opinion; it’s a matter of fact. Facts will come out. Maybe some of what Snowden said will be found to be wrong. But it’s extremely doubtful that Mistermix will be one of the people reporting those facts. And b) his hatred of GG pretty much tinges everything he writes. I think Glenn Greenwald is a pompous horse’s ass, but unlike Mistermix, I don’t think that automatically makes everything he reports for the Guardian newspaper suspect.

    It’s good to read stuff you don’t agree with, since it makes you think about what you believe. OTOH, I don’t need the blogs I read to give me heartburn, unless there’s some real outrage.

    Not that anyone here will care. The general attitude will be, “don’t let the door hit you on the way out,” if it generates any notice at all. Same to you.

    Too bad there’s not a way to kill filter front pagers.

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