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You are here: Home / Like the legend of the phoenix

Like the legend of the phoenix

by DougJ|  June 17, 201312:34 pm| 324 Comments

This post is in: Blogospheric Navel-Gazing, Let A Thousand Watergates Bloom

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Personally, I’m glad that Edward Snowden leaked all that stuff, and I don’t think he’s a Chinese spy or a traitor. Anyway, he’s certainly amusing:

“Ask yourself: if I were a Chinese spy, why wouldn’t I have flown directly into Beijing? I could be living in a palace petting a phoenix by now.”

Remember though, Daniel Ellsberg was never given a phoenix!

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Reader Interactions

324Comments

  1. 1.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 12:35 pm

    Countdown to Botsplaining thread in 3…2…1…

  2. 2.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    June 17, 2013 at 12:35 pm

    Just what I’d expect a spy to say.

  3. 3.

    Doug Milhous J

    June 17, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    So true.

  4. 4.

    Villago Delenda Est

    June 17, 2013 at 12:37 pm

    Snowden is an assclown. There’s little doubt about that right now.

    BTW, I’m pissed at Snowden because he’s given the vile spawn of Ron Paul a grifting angle that has resulted in me seeing his vile mug on web ads.

  5. 5.

    The Ancient Randonneur

    June 17, 2013 at 12:37 pm

    hhhmmm phoenix envy …

  6. 6.

    piratedan

    June 17, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    ask yourself, If I was a whistleblower, why wouldn’t I simply take my proof to Mother Jones or Rolling Stone…. hey, this is a nifty game!

  7. 7.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    June 17, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    Does it come with the sorting hat as well?

  8. 8.

    ranchandsyrup

    June 17, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    Master troll is masterful.

  9. 9.

    spacewalrus

    June 17, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    @piratedan: Would that be the Mother Jones that ran an article raising some questions about Snowden’s claims and Greenwald’s reporting? I knew Mother Jones was in the bag for the NSA.

  10. 10.

    Mnemosyne

    June 17, 2013 at 12:39 pm

    Nice clip of the full quote, DougJ:

    “This is a predictable smear that I anticipated before going public, as the US media has a knee-jerk “RED CHINA!” reaction to anything involving HK or the PRC, and is intended to distract from the issue of US government misconduct.”

    Interesting non-denial denial. There’s no of course I’m not providing classified information to the Chinese, just more misdirection.

  11. 11.

    Eric U.

    June 17, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    I don’t think this is going to go well for Mr. Snowden. The Russians or Chinese aren’t going to treat him that well, and the U.S. will have very good reason to go after him even if the reasons were weak before.

  12. 12.

    Short Bus Bully

    June 17, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    He’s a douche.

    But the bigger douche has proven to be the American people who are just now coming around to recognize that the Patriot Act is a fucking nightmare… but that it’s Obama’s fault.

  13. 13.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    June 17, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    @piratedan: Hell, you could be old fashioned and take it to the Washington Post.

  14. 14.

    piratedan

    June 17, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    @spacewalrus: or geez, you think that perhaps he could have contacted someone like Congressman Issa, him being a true patriot and all……

  15. 15.

    White Trash Liberal

    June 17, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    The kid’s a fucking dumbass. He is deliberately conflating technological potential with reality. Just because an NSA agent has the potential to access SIGINT and play World of Warcraft moderator does not mean that:

    1. This occurs
    2. This isn’t tracked

    I had access to enormous amounts of financial data in my prior DoD job. There were policy regulations in place and I adhered to them. Anyone who didn’t was punished.

    This kid is pushing a very deliberate and misleading agenda. It is going to cause nothing but trouble among the gullible and paranoid.

  16. 16.

    srv

    June 17, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Aquabuddhaman needs to fly over and personally interview the Snowman. That would be so epic.

    I do think I’ve found one loophole in the whole NSA/TSA/Homeland stellasphere – if you hold a TS clearance, you can just hop on any Honolulu to HK flight and that passenger manifest doesn’t get flagged?

  17. 17.

    shortstop

    June 17, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    My pet store told me phoenixes were on backorder.

  18. 18.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    There’s no of course I’m not providing classified information to the Chinese, just more misdirection

    Because all Snowden has to say is “of course I’m not providing classified…” and you and your fellow Botsplainers would totally believe him.

    Your dishonesty is all encompassing. You even lie to yourself.

  19. 19.

    Villago Delenda Est

    June 17, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    @Short Bus Bully:

    Oh, of course! Have you heard about the Presidential Message feature on cell phones that you can’t turn off? Turns out it was put into law by a Rethughlican controlled Congress and signed into law by the deserting coward, but somehow, it’s a plot to make us listen to Obama!

  20. 20.

    piratedan

    June 17, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): nah, way too Three Days of the Condor…..

  21. 21.

    Bob In Portland

    June 17, 2013 at 12:43 pm

    This script is pretty close to the one where Oswald defected to the Soviet Union. Except for the Harry Potter reference about the phoenix. Maybe Snowden can get the phoenix to fly over Arlington and cry its tears over the Pentagon.

  22. 22.

    Villago Delenda Est

    June 17, 2013 at 12:43 pm

    @shortstop:

    Lovely plumage. Pining for the fjords.

  23. 23.

    Roger Moore

    June 17, 2013 at 12:44 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Turns out it was put into law by a Rethughlican controlled Congress and signed into law by the deserting coward, but somehow, it’s a plot to make us listen to Obama!

    And his refusal to use it is proof that he’s actually sending subliminal messages all the time, or something.

  24. 24.

    Woodrowfan

    June 17, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    he’s not a Chinese spy, he just fled to China. Well, if he wasn’t a Chinese spy before, he will be soon enough, with a nice house with high walls and a couple pretty young female companions/handlers to keep him happy and under constant surveillance.

  25. 25.

    White Trash Liberal

    June 17, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Doesn’t matter in terms of public belief and disbelief. If he denies it outright and it is proven false, it’s another criminal charge.

    But continue making it all about Bots vs. TRUTH.

  26. 26.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 17, 2013 at 12:45 pm

    I’m glad he forced the discussion, but by continually inserting himself in to the story, and as @White Trash Liberal: suggests, distorting it, he’s making that discussion a lot less useful.

  27. 27.

    Villago Delenda Est

    June 17, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    @White Trash Liberal:

    This kid is pushing a very deliberate and misleading agenda. It is going to cause nothing but trouble among the gullible and paranoid.

    Well, you’ve got our usual racist shitstain troll jumping up and down like Homer Simpson anticipating a Chili cookoff defending the Snowden twit, so mission accomplished!

  28. 28.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    @Short Bus Bully:

    but that it’s Obama’s fault.

    What’s great though is how Obama has for five years been begging the American people to force the congress crits to repeal the Patriot Act. And he is so opposed to it that he refuses, refuses I say!, to enforce its repugnant and undemocratic provisions which are offensive to one such as Himself.

    But being a good little corporate tool, he sadly but conscientiously enforces that which he reviles, all for us. Yes I tell you, it is all for us.

    Hope and change are hard. So hard that its best not to bother…

  29. 29.

    Mnemosyne

    June 17, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Because all Snowden has to say is “of course I’m not providing classified…” and you and your fellow Botsplainers would totally believe him.

    Hey, I’m not the one who believes that a guy who defected to China is totally not giving them the information he fled the country with.

    I do love the why didn’t I fly to Beijing? dodge, though. Because of course everyone who ever defected to the US from the Soviet Union or another communist bloc country flew directly to Washington DC to do it.

  30. 30.

    Chyron HR

    June 17, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Sorry, but I think you were more credible yesterday when you compared receiving emergency alerts on your cell phone to the Holocaust.

  31. 31.

    shortstop

    June 17, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    @Bob In Portland: Do you think Mr. Snowden understands the classical phoenix, or only the Harry Potter version? I’d be interested to know whether he thinks he’s starting a death and rebirth right now.

  32. 32.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    June 17, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    I want to be sympathetic to Snowden but I just can’t forgive him for trying to make Obammers look bad. Snowden could have waited three more years and blowed up Christie’s presidency. As it is, Obama’s integrity and honesty have plummeted in polls and there’s a chance he won’t get carved on Rushmore.

  33. 33.

    AliceBlue

    June 17, 2013 at 12:48 pm

    He’s turning out to be a bigger drama queen than Greenwald.

  34. 34.

    TooManyJens

    June 17, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: This is why I’m so pissed at him. I want to have this discussion, but unless it’s honest and fact-based, it’s useless (or worse). Right now we’re having a “national conversation” that, as far as I can tell, is based on about 90% bullshit. And pointing out the bullshit means “You’re a shill for the NSA and you hate freedom, you Obama-bot!”

    Fuck everything about this.

  35. 35.

    srv

    June 17, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    @Bob In Portland: How exactly did Oswald not spend life in Leavenworth for defecting to the Soviet Union? Ike was a softy?

    @Short Bus Bully: Hoocoodanode a policy of looking forward could end in disaster…

    Snowman is going to be a media darling until the AP gets Holder’s head.

  36. 36.

    schrodinger's cat

    June 17, 2013 at 12:50 pm

    @Short Bus Bully: Everything is Obama’s fault. Firebaggers and teabaggers are in agreement.

  37. 37.

    shortstop

    June 17, 2013 at 12:51 pm

    @TooManyJens: This. It doesn’t conveniently fit the “If A is true, B must be false” narrative beloved of so many here, but it’s what’s happening.

  38. 38.

    Comrade Jake

    June 17, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    For a guy who was so adamant that the story wasn’t about him, he seems awfully interested in making himself the story.

  39. 39.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    I am going to assume “amusing” was an auto-correcting error of “confusing”.

  40. 40.

    The Dangerman

    June 17, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    I could be living in a palace petting a phoenix by now.

    He was misquoted; he said he could be in Phoenix petting his phallus.

  41. 41.

    Joel

    June 17, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    Palace? Doubtful. Maybe this one.

  42. 42.

    White Trash Liberal

    June 17, 2013 at 12:55 pm

    Just to add:

    We all have the power to get in our car and mow down civilians. What prevents us from exercising our innate control over life and death are that system of ethics and regulation which form part of that greater fabric called society. Just because one idiot does go on a driving spree doesn’t call into question the automobile, highways, and the human condition.

    Congress and the president should come together and reevaluate the system. But just because that system can be abused doesn’t invalidate it nor make it a boogeyman the way Snowden and Greenwald wish to paint it. They are playing a destructive rhetorical game.

  43. 43.

    Yatsuno

    June 17, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    OT: What the hell is going on in Canuckistan???

  44. 44.

    LAC

    June 17, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    Was he wearing a cravat and speaking like Thurston Howell III? That is what I picture this douche clown looking like with that har har wit of his.

  45. 45.

    White Trash Liberal

    June 17, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    And by abused, I mean by individuals who want to play Agent Smith in the Matrix.

  46. 46.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    June 17, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead: He might even decide not to run again.

  47. 47.

    TooManyJens

    June 17, 2013 at 12:57 pm

    @The Dangerman: Are we sure he isn’t?

    @Yatsuno: Wow. I need to ask my sister in Calgary if she has any dirt on her mayor.

  48. 48.

    Short Bus Bully

    June 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: I think I saw a Pink Floyd video just like that once…

  49. 49.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    @TooManyJens:

    Poor dear.

    You want so very badly to Botsplain this to the American people, but they let you down at every turn, unwilling to listen to your calm and dulcet tones as you delineate His methods and minimize their natural concerns.

    Hang in there.

  50. 50.

    Roger Moore

    June 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm

    @TooManyJens:

    I want to have this discussion, but unless it’s honest and fact-based, it’s useless (or worse). Right now we’re having a “national conversation” that, as far as I can tell, is based on about 90% bullshit. And pointing out the bullshit means “You’re a shill for the NSA and you hate freedom, you Obama-bot!”

    We aren’t going to have a rational, fact-based conversation in the current political climate. There’s simply too much political polarization for any serious discussion of government policy. Anything that’s remotely important is going to be turned into the latest excuse for political ax grinding.

  51. 51.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    June 17, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    @White Trash Liberal: Just for a moment, it was like David Broder never died. Thank you for that.

  52. 52.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 1:00 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    but they let you down at every turn, unwilling to listen to your calm and dulcet tones as you delineate His methods and minimize their natural concerns.

    You’re reading a whole lot into a collective shrug.

  53. 53.

    ranchandsyrup

    June 17, 2013 at 1:00 pm

    This is the weaponization of “transparency”. I cringed when Obammerz made that campaign promise and watched conservatives and libertarians alike turn to the issue when they couldn’t latch onto anything better.

  54. 54.

    Comrade Dread

    June 17, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    Personally, I’m glad that Edward Snowden leaked all that stuff, and I don’t think he’s a Chinese spy or a traitor.

    Yeah, I can believe that.

    He seems more like a pompous, self-important douche who’s playing with things that are way over his head.

    But, if nothing else, he’s done the NSA a huge favor in pointing out how low the standards are for hiring with our government contractors.

  55. 55.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    June 17, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): Fucking baggers!

  56. 56.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    @White Trash Liberal:

    But just because that system can be abused…

    And who is it that has been abusing it…? Anyone you know of?

  57. 57.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 17, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead: David Broder is the Obi Wan of Villagism, since he was struck down, he has become The Force.

  58. 58.

    Alain

    June 17, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    Nice Daft Punk title reference, Doug (assuming you’re not quoting some other song with the same line in it)

  59. 59.

    LAC

    June 17, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    @Ted & Hellen: Hope and change is hard. We hope that you would change into someone we could stand. But no…

  60. 60.

    SatanicPanic

    June 17, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    I don’t think you need to go all the way to China to pet a phoenix, firebaggers have been doing that from their keyboards ever since this story broke.

  61. 61.

    Yatsuno

    June 17, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    @ranchandsyrup: Y WON’T OBUMMER TELL US DA TROOF??? WHAT ELSE IS HE HIDING??? OVERTURN THE ELECTION!! INSTALL WILLARD NOW!! WOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  62. 62.

    Villago Delenda Est

    June 17, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    @White Trash Liberal:

    Congress and the president should come together and reevaluate the system.

    Alas, not going to happen with this Congress, where you have a bunch of raging idiot Ted and Helens screaming about Fast and Furious, BENGHAZI!, IRS abuse, and trillion dollar Presidential visits to Uganda.

  63. 63.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    @Yatsuno: If this were LGF, that would be in purple comic sans.

  64. 64.

    Socoolsofresh

    June 17, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    @TooManyJens: Ya sure you want to have that discussion. I bet you were clamoring for it, but now Snowden has come and messed it all up for you. Guess you were going to wait for the NSA to provide you with the full honest facts and disclosure to have a meaningful talk about it, and now Snowden crashed the party. It’s totally his fault.

    Where does your 90% bullshit stat come from? I guess from this blogs commenters.

    Again, keep on attacking the messenger guys. Snowden is the worst! Not the permanently installed surveillance state! You accept that because it has now become bipartisan consensus!

  65. 65.

    shortstop

    June 17, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    @Yatsuno: I thought the same thing this morning. Then I realized: we know for sure that these were politely conducted arrests. That we can always count on from our neighbors to the north.

  66. 66.

    KG

    June 17, 2013 at 1:05 pm

    @Yatsuno: countries are like people, it’s always the quiet ones you have to watch out for…

  67. 67.

    Doug Milhous J

    June 17, 2013 at 1:06 pm

    @Alain:

    Glad someone got it! I can’t get that song out of my head.

  68. 68.

    ranchandsyrup

    June 17, 2013 at 1:07 pm

    @Yatsuno: Mittens or a Paul will be totes transparent. Transparently IGMFY.

  69. 69.

    catclub

    June 17, 2013 at 1:07 pm

    @Yatsuno:Wow! Whats up indeed.

    I used to live in NDG. It wasn’t me, though.

  70. 70.

    Cassidy

    June 17, 2013 at 1:07 pm

    @LAC: Wow. I was hoping for something completely different like changing into worm food, different. We are definitely not on the same page.

  71. 71.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 1:08 pm

    @KG: Me, I’ve always suspected that one day Canada is just going to go off and bomb the shit out of Luxembourg.

  72. 72.

    askew

    June 17, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    I come down on traitor and possible Chinese spy after his flight to Hong Kong and that he decided to steal national security info before taking his contractor job.

  73. 73.

    catclub

    June 17, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: ” Fast and Furious, BENGHAZI!, IRS abuse”
    all seem to have disappeared when Snowden crossed the wires. I am surprised. There is even less Obama scandal in his news than all the others. Which ain’t much.

  74. 74.

    Comrade Jake

    June 17, 2013 at 1:10 pm

    It must have been awkward for Snowden when he realized that his security clearance allowed him to see things that were being kept secret.

  75. 75.

    shortstop

    June 17, 2013 at 1:10 pm

    @askew: I often wonder how dumb people can be good actors; it seems like the kind of profession in which you really need smarts to succeed. But that’s not always true. Perhaps I’ve been making the same bad assumption about spies.

  76. 76.

    TooManyJens

    June 17, 2013 at 1:11 pm

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Where does your 90% bullshit stat come from? I guess from this blogs commenters.

    Hahahahahahahaha, you think I get information on anything related to this subject from this blog’s commenters? As soon as Glenn Greenwald was involved, it was never going to be anything but a festival of shit-flinging here.

    I get it from seeing how many of the claims that have been flying around have been debunked by people who actually took the time to examine them instead of immediately publishing anything that fit their biases and got them clicks.

    I’ve already written my senators to ask them to back Jeff Merkley on this: http://www.thenation.com/blog/174742/senators-end-secret-law-frames-surveillance-programs. So, yes, I want to have the conversation. More information is good; more flailing about by people who don’t understand what they’re talking about is bad. See the difference?

    ETA: Or, as @Pinboard just put it,

    Irritated that the murky PRISM allegations have sapped attention from the much more egregious stuff we know the feds are actually doing

  77. 77.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 17, 2013 at 1:11 pm

    @catclub: actually, Mike Rogers told Uncle Schieffer that there may be something criminal in BENGHAZI!

  78. 78.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 1:13 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    BENGHAZI!, IRS abuse, and trillion dollar Presidential visits to Uganda.

    This is, of course, one of the many ways Botsplainers go off the rails. Their need to stereotype and generalize in attacking those who dare to question Him. I have never questions Himself about any of the above.

    But don’t let that temper your desperate Botsplaining.

  79. 79.

    LAC

    June 17, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    @Cassidy: LOL!! You know, you are right – because at least that would be useful…and quiet.

  80. 80.

    Carolinus

    June 17, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    There’s no of course I’m not providing classified information to the Chinese, just more misdirection

    Because all Snowden has to say is “of course I’m not providing classified…” and you and your fellow Botsplainers would totally believe him.

    Umm. The reason no one would believe him is he already did it, in full public view.

    Snowden leaked classified documents concerning U.S. cyber ops targeting China to the South China Morning Post:

    SCMP: Edward Snowden: Classified US data shows Hong Kong hacking targets

    Top-secret US government records shown to Post by whistle-blower give details of computer IP addresses hacked by NSA in HK and mainland

    The detailed records – which cannot be independently verified – show specific dates and the IP addresses of computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland hacked by the National Security Agency over a four-year period.

    They also include information indicating whether an attack on a computer was ongoing or had been completed, along with an amount of additional operational information.

    He also gave them an exclusive interview essentially tying his extradition to his US foreign espionage leaks:

    http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259508/edward-snowden-us-government-has-been-hacking-hong-kong-and-china

    In an exclusive interview carried out from a secret location in the city, the former Central Intelligence Agency analyst also made explosive claims that the US government had been hacking into computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland for years.

    …

    “People who think I made a mistake in picking HK as a location misunderstand my intentions. I am not here to hide from justice, I am here to reveal criminality,” he said.

    Snowden said that according to unverified documents seen by the Post, the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009.

    …

    Snowden said he was releasing the information to demonstrate “the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries”.

    “Not only does it do so, but it is so afraid of this being known that it is willing to use any means, such as diplomatic intimidation, to prevent this information from becoming public.”

    …

    “All I can do is rely on my training and hope that world governments will refuse to be bullied by the United States into persecuting people seeking political refuge.”

    Asked if he had been offered asylum by the Russian government, he said: “My only comment is that I am glad there are governments that refuse to be intimidated by great power”.

    …

    “The reality is that I have acted at great personal risk to help the public of the world, regardless of whether that public is American, European, or Asian.”

    The official press agency of the People’s Republic of China (Xinhua News Agency) is now heavily promoting him:

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/indepth/2013-06/14/c_132454804.htm
    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/indepth/2013-06/14/c_132455893.htm

  81. 81.

    Comrade Dread

    June 17, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    Ya sure you want to have that discussion. I bet you were clamoring for it,

    I was. Right around 2006 when all of this started to come out and Congress rubber stamped it and started legalizing it all after previous abuses came to light.

    And then the American people elected the same damn assclowns back to office. And then they sent a bunch of even more conservative nuttier ones up in 2010, and reelected most of them again in 2012.

    So yeah, I’m happy you’re on board the ‘we should probably do something about the Patriot Act’, forgive me for not jumping on the whole Obama is worse than Bush poutrage bandwagon because we’ve had ample opportunity to worry about, discuss, and address the overreaching security state and we’ve collectively done jack all.

  82. 82.

    Villago Delenda Est

    June 17, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Cretinous racist dogshit is cretinous racist dogshit. No surprises here.

  83. 83.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    June 17, 2013 at 1:14 pm

    Is it possible Snowden is not a racist?

  84. 84.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    @TooManyJens:

    More information is good; more flailing about by people who don’t understand what they’re talking about is bad.

    “Bullshit in the service of a greater good” has become a horrible component of the progressive value system as of late. It’s just stunning to see people say, “It doesn’t matter if what (X) said was correct, we need to focus on the real issue!” Or, “OK, what (X) said was incorrect, but that doesn’t matter because (X) is fighting for the right thing!”

  85. 85.

    Flying Squirrel Girl

    June 17, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    @shortstop: I was just never, ever able to believe Ted Danson playing the role of a doctor in Becker for this reason.

  86. 86.

    Mnemosyne

    June 17, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    And who is it that has been abusing it…? Anyone you know of?

    You mean other than the guy who defected to China with a bunch of classified information in his pocket?

  87. 87.

    TooManyJens

    June 17, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    @different-church-lady: Yes. It drives me completely insane. I thought we were supposed to be the reality-based ones!

  88. 88.

    Roger Moore

    June 17, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    @KG:
    I think Weird Al had it right:

    Always hear the same kind of story
    Break their nose and they’ll just say sorry
    Tell me what kind of freaks are that polite?
    It’s gotta mean they’re all up to something
    So quick before they see it coming
    Time for a preemptive strike

  89. 89.

    Cassidy

    June 17, 2013 at 1:18 pm

    it still boggles me to find out people are surprised and shocke dto find out tha tintelligence agencies gather intelligence. They’ve made [mostly bad] movies about this shit. lol

  90. 90.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 1:19 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Cretinous racist dogshit is cretinous racist dogshit. No surprises here.

    Frustrated Botsplainer resorts to RACIST! No surprises here.

  91. 91.

    shortstop

    June 17, 2013 at 1:20 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    I think Weird Al had it right

    Now there’s a string of words I’d never have predicted would come out of Roger Moore’s mouth.

  92. 92.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Is it possible Snowden is not a racist?

    No. That is not possible.

  93. 93.

    Cassidy

    June 17, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    @LAC: But somehow I was the asshole for suggesting the world would be a better place with a little vertical ventilation.

  94. 94.

    Scott S.

    June 17, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    Ehh, Snowden is probably too stupid to make a decent spy. He’s just an easily manipulable tool. Give him another month or two, Greenwald will start pretending he never heard of him, and he’ll be back on the outside, wondering how his planned heroic tour vanished out from under him. He’s a tool, and tools get discarded.

  95. 95.

    J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford

    June 17, 2013 at 1:22 pm

    Personally, I hope the U.S. gets custody of Snowden and throws him in jail for the next 20-30 years of his life. I don’t think he’s even a fraction of what his supporters think he is. The most shocking revelation to me from this whole thing is that a 29 year old, 3 weeks on the job contractor, GED equivalent mother fucker was given high level security access and allowed to fuck shit up. I don’t think he’s a whistle-blower or a hero. The interviewing and vetting process for most ordinary jobs is more thorough than apparently what these private contractors with top-secret clearance are subjected too, and that is fucking insane.

    I don’t think that there is anything shocking about what the NSA was doing (what did you think the Patriot Act and FISA courts did?) and I think the paranoia and hysteria surrounding the story is typical summer shit-show. There is a lot less here than what Greenwald is claiming and trumping up and I think a lot of news organizations and bloggers are choosing to ignore the shit that has been debunked, just as they’re ignoring shit on Benghazi! and tehIRS!!11! and every other bullshit SCANDAL omg! The “news” that is disseminated by both the old and new media is driven purely by advertising dollars and page views and less and less by the facts. News organization don’t even feel obligated to run corrections anymore because there is such a market for misinformation that fits niche narratives that there is no margin in being honest and trustworthy.

    I don’t have much faith in government and I have even less faith in the press and our new media. We suffered the worst economic crisis in multiple generations and one party has done everything they can to prolong the misery while the other party sits around with it’s collective thumb up it’s ass letting people suffer – and that isn’t even in the top 20 stories.

    Just fucking disappointed with everyone and starting to give less and less of shit about anyone that isn’t in my family or small circle of friends and colleagues. At this point I just want to remain gainfully employed, keep my wife and our family healthy and maybe make it to 70 years old without some semi-retarded dipshit deciding to blow us up at the one baseball game I can attend and afford.

    And if I see one more interview with Dick Fucking Cheney or his festering c#nt of a daughter, I’m gonna puke.

  96. 96.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    @J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford:

    BOTSPLAIN!

    Nothing to see here comrades…the messenger is a traitor, untrue to the cause….move along…treason!…

  97. 97.

    Bob In Portland

    June 17, 2013 at 1:26 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead: That’s the whole reason for this. Now let the CIA fly their drones over Syria and get out of the way!

  98. 98.

    TooManyJens

    June 17, 2013 at 1:26 pm

    I’m starting to think Timmeh is just a primitive AI. Like ELIZA without the charm.

  99. 99.

    Yatsuno

    June 17, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    @TooManyJens: Unfortunately he’s a real human. But being a contrarian gets Daddy Cole’s attention so he runs with it. I don’t think Timmeh believes in, well, anything.

    @different-church-lady: Well I guess it is an ethos…

  100. 100.

    askew

    June 17, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    @shortstop:

    @askew: I often wonder how dumb people can be good actors; it seems like the kind of profession in which you really need smarts to succeed. But that’s not always true. Perhaps I’ve been making the same bad assumption about spies.

    I think if you are a cover spy like a Michael Weston you need to be smart, but just stealing information from a large government contractor doesn’t seem to be all that hard to do.

  101. 101.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 1:31 pm

    @Yatsuno: “trolling for the sake of it” isn’t a belief?

  102. 102.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 17, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    @piratedan: ask yourself, If I was a whistleblower, why wouldn’t I simply take my proof to Mother Jones or Rolling Stone

    Because they’re statist tools of the Dempublicans, duh! Ron Paul ReLOVEution!

  103. 103.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    “…if I were a Chinese spy, why wouldn’t I have flown directly into Beijing?”

    Oh I don’t know…

    1)To maintain the pretence that the Chinese didn’t own you?

    2)Because they hadn’t agreed to your price for the better material?

    3)Because you belonged to some other foreign power all along?

    Three possibilities – none of which make you look quite so virtuous, Mr Snowden.

  104. 104.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    @Yatsuno:

    BOTSPLAIN: Those who speak out against or oppose the actions of the Leader are empty vessels, soulless! DO NOT LISTEN TO THEM.

  105. 105.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 17, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    @Eric U.: I love Chinese media, all “we can improve our reputation by giving him asylum for pantsing the US security state’ while winkingly acknowledging that he’s an enormous asshat…

    Sounds a lot like the US realpolitik asylum grants during the Cold War.

  106. 106.

    Cassidy

    June 17, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    Oh how cute, it found a new schtick. If only it would find something poinsonous to drink or something fast moving to walk into…if only.

  107. 107.

    peach flavored shampoo

    June 17, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    /furiously scanning UrbanDictionary for “petting a phoenix”…

  108. 108.

    Yatsuno

    June 17, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    @Ted & Hellen: You are just being so totes adorbs now Timmeh! Now go play with your finger paints like a good little troll.

  109. 109.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 17, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    @Short Bus Bully: Less douche than dumbass, I think.

    Did they think the PATRIOT Act was repealed when they voted Obama in, magickally?

    Just like they think Obama is a sellout for not writing executive orders to get around congress, because executive orders are forever no backsies?

  110. 110.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    @Ted & Hellen: Dude and dudette, you’re the one who has claimed other people are robots eight times so far on this thread.

  111. 111.

    Marc

    June 17, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    @TooManyJens: Does the “just a bot” thing he does actually convince anyone? At this point it’s coming across as “Polly want a cracker.”

  112. 112.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    Head & Telling clearly needs a better algorithm and a more interesting vocabulary.

  113. 113.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    @Marc:

    More like cracker wants a wetsuit and two dildos.

  114. 114.

    Socoolsofresh

    June 17, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    @Comrade Dread: Well, candidate Obama has really changed his message on surveillance now that he is President. I guess he has no influence though, it’s all congresses fault! It’s pretty funny that in 2006 the solution to the Patriot Act was to elect more Democrats! Now that they are in power, and are fine with the NSA overreach, its, I’m throwing my hands up! Nothing we can do!

  115. 115.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    @Marc: I’m pretty sure the intent of playground taunting isn’t to convince anyone — it’s merely to annoy people.

  116. 116.

    Cassidy

    June 17, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    @Marc: Basically, it’s a narcissitic pile of shit that craves human interaction. It’ll say anything, and there is no bottom limit, just to get some emotional contact.

  117. 117.

    Eric U.

    June 17, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    the only reason I see for the troll to harp on this is because most Dems were upset about it when the laws were passed in the first place and it makes us dispirited. It’s not like the trolls are acting in behalf of anyone that would get rid of these activities. Apparently Bush/Cheney was doing worse. And Obama pushed through oversight hearings on a regular basis. Which our congresscritters don’t go to, apparently.

  118. 118.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    @Socoolsofresh:

    You do realize that the Democrats don’t control Congress, right? Or was that piece of data just a little too complex for you?

  119. 119.

    J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford

    June 17, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Just as the government doesn’t have the time or two shits to give to scrutinize your Netflix queue, I really don’t give two flying fucks what some dipshit message board troll like you thinks.

  120. 120.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    @Socoolsofresh:

    The executive has NO power or influence since 2008. Please do keep up.

  121. 121.

    Yatsuno

    June 17, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    @Another Halocene Human: No no no. Don’t you get it? Once Obama was elected he was supposed to nullify every conservative law ever passed and install firebagger utopia with one executive order. His failure to do so just proves he’s a total sell-out that is worse than Bush on every level. In fact, his whole election should be nullified so a True Progressive* can be installed who will do things right.

    *definition changes daily, sometimes hourly

    @NickT: I smell a sockpuppet…

  122. 122.

    Comrade Dread

    June 17, 2013 at 1:41 pm

    @Socoolsofresh: You could stop bitching and call your Congressmen to demand they outlaw the things you find objectionable, or you can get involved and start working to elect better Democrats.

    But complaining on the Internet is a lot more productive.

  123. 123.

    Cassidy

    June 17, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    @Cassidy: Also, forgot to add, telling it to DIAF or walk in front of a fast moving bus, train, etc. is cool. Suggesting it should put a gun into its mouth-hole and opening up it’s skull is too far.

  124. 124.

    Mandalay

    June 17, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    Sorry to interrupt the bitchfest, but I think Snowden had a real point when he said this:

    Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper – the Director of National Intelligence – baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy.

    Actually it wasn’t so much that he lied to the public, but that he lied to Congress without repercussion. The whole game is completely rigged.

  125. 125.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    @J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford:

    I, sir, am utterly destroyed, destroyed! I tell you, by the fervent disdain with which you address me personally. I have just now lost the will to live as a result of your withering personal attack.

  126. 126.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    @Yatsuno:

    Oh I am sure it is one. It would be intriguing to know how many identities the critter has run through at this point.

  127. 127.

    Socoolsofresh

    June 17, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    @TooManyJens: Ya, I bet the senate is going to do something about it! They couldn’t even be bothered to stay for the NSA meeting last week because they wanted to take off for the weekend. Sounds like they are really concerned!

  128. 128.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    I have just now lost the will to live as a result of your withering personal attack.

    Well, can’t say nothing good happened today.

  129. 129.

    TooManyJens

    June 17, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    @Socoolsofresh: Giving up. Awesome strategy. Congrats on your purity. Run along now.

  130. 130.

    Cassidy

    June 17, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    @different-church-lady: Helluva way to start the week.

  131. 131.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    Sadly, zombietroll probably won’t be any different after higher brain function officially ceases.

  132. 132.

    Yatsuno

    June 17, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    @Mandalay: You realise the enforcement for that is in Congress right? These are people who can barely do their day jobs on a good day. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but expecting them to police themselves is laughable.

  133. 133.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 17, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    @Another Halocene Human:
    The sad truth is that if Obama had in any way curtailed the implementation of the PATRIOT act and then some Islamist had so much as set off an illegal firecracker in a public park you’d hear the howls of outrage 20 miles out to sea. If that wasn’t the end of his presidency it would be damn’ close.

  134. 134.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    @Yatsuno:

    No no no. Don’t you get it? Once Obama was elected he was supposed to nullify every conservative law ever passed and install firebagger utopia with one executive order. His failure to do so just proves he’s a total sell-out that is worse than Bush on every level. In fact, his whole election should be nullified so a True Progressive* can be installed who will do things right.

    Here we see the misdirection and blatantly twisting of the messenger’s message, which are standard BOTSPLAINING tactics.

    Alternatively, Himself could, oh I don’t know, stop vigorously enforcing insane conservative laws, as is perfectly within His power to do. That is…if he WANTED to do so…

  135. 135.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 17, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    Hey, I think far left tools are actually very useful. When liberals and labor activists and GLBT activists get accused of being far left, they can point at actual far left assclowns, who are being very, very vocal right now, belying their tiny, deluded numbers, and say, no, we’re liberals and progressives, THOSE guys are lefties.

    Leading from the left is, of course, a joke, because most of them are either so deep into Alex Jones shit that they think gravity is just a theory and nothing they say is coherent whatsoever or they are actually quite retrograde on the civil rights issues that are so important to liberals. Look at the leftie track record on: women’s rights, gender equality, glbt visibility, glbt rights, racial equality, indigenous autonomy, the environment, freedom of speech/expression, bodily autonomy, religious freedom, political reform. They either are stuck 20-50 years behind liberals, push anti-humanist politics with their fingers stuck in their ears, or actively throw bombs. Nothing is more important than their pet axes to grind, fuck coalition building, fuck developing a more mature and nuanced understanding of power and oppression. Just keep worshiping Revolution Jesus and telling yourself that you could live forever if only you eat the “right” foods and think the “right” thoughts.

    The only US lefty group that is halfway contemporary that I have any respect for is the Maoists because they were engaged in prisoner issues during the 80s and 90s which was a very hostile time. Only a few very old school liberals cared about what was going on while the majority turned their backs. Thankfully, times have changed. I don’t know if those Maoist cells are still functional.

    I don’t count “radicals”. While they engaged leftist thought they also disputed with it because it belied their lived experience. They were honestly only radicals because the society they lived in was sick. Watch how one by one the former radicals with a few exceptions have become the political and academic establishment (this is not a bad thing, btw). The ones who used radical rhetoric to cloak their criminal behavior are mostly dead or in prison. There are a few who are unjustly in prison because the FBI is still a very sick organization. Always more progress to be made.

  136. 136.

    catclub

    June 17, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: “Mike Rogers told Uncle Schieffer”
    which means nobody heard it except sabbath gasbag watchers ( like us).

  137. 137.

    Yatsuno

    June 17, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    @Ted & Hellen: :: yawn ::

    Okay I’m bored. And someone order Timmeh a basic civics class please.

  138. 138.

    some guy

    June 17, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    I used to believe in the 4th Amendment until I learned Glenn Greenwald was a Republican, and his stance on immigration is very ugly. Now I am totally cool with a police surveillance state.

  139. 139.

    Socoolsofresh

    June 17, 2013 at 1:49 pm

    @NickT: As I recall, Democrats had a majority in Congress from 2007-2010. I know that fact is inconvenient, but true. Didn’t hear about them doing that much when they had the power. Oh right, they needed 60 votes in the senate! Seems like the only way Democrats will do anything constructive is if they need 90% of both houses. I imagine then they would come up with some new excuse.

  140. 140.

    FlipYrWhig

    June 17, 2013 at 1:49 pm

    @Mnemosyne: That part of the quote even sounds like it came from a Greenwald-by-numbers kit. It has the same “why must I suffer such inferior opponents?” air about it.

  141. 141.

    catclub

    June 17, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    @Mandalay: “but that he lied to Congress without repercussion.”
    Karl Rove just tells em to fuck off, without repercussion.

    Or he gets to testify without taking any oath. High-larious

  142. 142.

    Jamey

    June 17, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    @Short Bus Bully: You’re kidding, right; I just got trolled, right?!

    I recall a lot of Americans a decade ago saying, “President Hitlery Clinton” as a reply to Bushiess claims that only the wicked need fear the Patriot Act’s Homeland Security measures. I may have a Pauline Kael problem, but most people I know were very concerned about governmental overreach. At least Obama has voiced similar concerns, even if he meant, “stop me before I sin again.”

  143. 143.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 17, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: Well, Obama and all Democrats, which is why powerful Democrats weren’t going to entertain rolling back that shit from 2009-2011.

    I mean, look at the pushback over Gitmo, and that wasn’t even remotely as salient. (Of course, OBL was still alive at that point.)

  144. 144.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    @TooManyJens:

    Giving up. Awesome strategy.

    Acknowledging reality is not “giving up,” Botsplainer, but nice misdirection attempt. But it is the important first step two which Bots are utterly opposed.

    Acknowledging that Obama and national dems in congress are part of the problem is essential before anything else can be accomplished. Refusing to do so is truly giving up on anything getting better. Denial is not a healthy starting point.

  145. 145.

    Socoolsofresh

    June 17, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    @TooManyJens: Right, it is purity when you see proof of your senators not giving a shit about NSA surveillance!

  146. 146.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Now, find yourself a calendar and check what year it is.

    You can do this, tiger, you really can.

  147. 147.

    piratedan

    June 17, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    @Socoolsofresh: what an incredible load of horseshit that is…begone into the pie filter you duplicitous trolling asshat.

  148. 148.

    Mandalay

    June 17, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    @Socoolsofresh:

    It’s pretty funny that in 2006 the solution to the Patriot Act was to elect more Democrats! Now that they are in power, and are fine with the NSA overreach…

    From a Time poll taken last week….

    Overall, do you personally approve or disapprove of the federal government’s policy of collecting phone dialing records, emails, and internet search records in an effort to prevent terrorist attacks?

    – Approve: 39% of Republicans, 58% of Democrats
    – Disapprove: 57% of Republicans, 33% of Democrats
    – Totally fucking clueless: 4% of Republicans, 9% of Democrats

  149. 149.

    Scott S.

    June 17, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    Republican troll is Republican troll. And has *always* been a Republican troll.

    If only America were as monstrously abusive as they daydream about. Because then the Republican troll would get a bullet behind his ear and we could all have a little peace and quiet…

  150. 150.

    FlipYrWhig

    June 17, 2013 at 1:53 pm

    @Socoolsofresh: You might think that Democratic _and_ Republican support for things you don’t like would explain a lot about the continuation of things you don’t like. Then again, maybe Obama is just bent on making you personally miserable out of spite.

  151. 151.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 1:53 pm

    @Yatsuno:

    These are people who can barely do their day jobs on a good day. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but expecting them to police themselves is laughable.

    At what point do Dembots/Obots admit that the U.S. system of government, despite the massive levels of hope and change which have altered everything in the last five years, is utterly corrupt and must be replaced for anything positive to emerge from it?

    You seem to want to take part in the system while also claiming the right to point and laugh at its absurdity. Not acceptable.

  152. 152.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 1:53 pm

    @Mandalay:

    Yes, and you’ll notice how the question was worded. How many Democrats are going to say that they are fine with risking a terrorist attack after years of being accused of being weak on security or crypto-Muslims?

    Remember the freakout over the former Burlington Coat Factory?

  153. 153.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 17, 2013 at 1:53 pm

    @White Trash Liberal:

    I had access to enormous amounts of financial data in my prior DoD job. There were policy regulations in place and I adhered to them. Anyone who didn’t was punished.

    I remember a story about the time when Hilary took over State that some n00bs at the Passport office were being trained and they were shown how to access people’s passport info but also warned that everything they did was tracked. One person looked up Hilary Clinton’s info and it caused a small hubbub. The punchline being they had access to everything but it was tracked, so don’t be a smartass.

  154. 154.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    @Scott S.:

    Indeed. And it’s now advocating overthrowing the government!

  155. 155.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    The sad truth is that if Obama had in any way curtailed the implementation of the PATRIOT act and then some Islamist had so much as set off an illegal firecracker in a public park you’d hear the howls of outrage 20 miles out to sea.

    The usual cowardly mewlings of the capitulators: “They’d be so mean! And they’re already really mean now! So we can’t do or say anything! Hope and change is unpossible because of this!”

  156. 156.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 17, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    @Another Halocene Human: I mention OBL because it’s my hope that post-OBL most people will be less hysterical about the Gitmo issue. I never understood the hysteria about bringing them here for trial myself. I thought Jon Stewart’s reaction, showing clips from MSNBC’s Lockup shows, was right on point.

  157. 157.

    Bill Arnold

    June 17, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    @Comrade Dread:

    But, if nothing else, he’s done the NSA a huge favor in pointing out how low the standards are for hiring with our government contractors.

    Out of curiosity, how are libertarian sympathies treated during background checks for security clearances?
    (In the one background check interview I’ve done, the subject didn’t come up.)

  158. 158.

    Gindy51

    June 17, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    @Socoolsofresh: Could it also be that once he became president he actually learned wtf goes on. As a candidate he would not have the same level of info that he has now. Seems to me a lot of people expect him to hold to those promises based on not knowing what he does now. Maybe he should have explained that but if that explaining would have led to security breaches maybe it is better he did not.

  159. 159.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 1:56 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Careful, little troll. Your RedState roots are showing.

  160. 160.

    John Arbuthnot Fisher

    June 17, 2013 at 1:57 pm

    @J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford:

    This.

    Meanwhile, Snowden claims his mission is exposing the security / surveillance state…and so he flees to Hong Kong and begins publicizing information politically advantageous to China (or perhaps outright cooperating with them at this point)? We all know China takes personal freedom very seriously. Paultard paradise!

    I have yet to see any evidence this is anything more than Snowden’s narcissism.

  161. 161.

    FlipYrWhig

    June 17, 2013 at 1:57 pm

    @Mandalay: My guess would be that if you phrased the question so that “to prevent terrorist attacks” was closer to the beginning than the end, you would end up with overwhelming support. Not because it’s right to have that reaction, but because “terrorist” is a trigger word, and the placement of that word in the poll question is going to make a big difference.

  162. 162.

    piratedan

    June 17, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    @Ted & Hellen: solution is simple, stop electing Republicans, while Dems can still be bought and sold on the corporate Congressional Exchange market, we stop having discussions about vaginas, the truth and awesomeness regarding rule by invisible sky buddies and whether or not poors and immigrants are really people .

  163. 163.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 17, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Absolutely. Combine the reality you outlined with a non-zero probability of another terrorist attack and it’s pretty obvious that unilateral action to reduce the scope of information gathering would be courting political suicide. And there would have been plenty of craven Dems who would have jumped on the Impeach Obama bandwagon.

  164. 164.

    munira

    June 17, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    @Yatsuno:

    Major mayor meltdown. Montreal is now one up on Toronto. We don’t mess around in Quebec. We’ve managed to get ours actually arrested.

  165. 165.

    Comrade Dread

    June 17, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    Acknowledging that Obama and national dems in congress are part of the problem is essential before anything else can be accomplished.

    Step 1: Both sides do it.
    Step 2: Spend lots of time on Internet repeating step 1
    Step 3: ????
    Step 4: Liberal utopia.

  166. 166.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    June 17, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    Seventeen of you went into my pie filter today. I will absolutely not tolerate any insouciance, no matter how heartfelt or well-intended.

  167. 167.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    @FlipYrWhig:

    I do wonder how Mandalay would answer the question. Is Mandalay happy to reduce our data gathering and analysis if it increases the likelihood of a terrorist attack?

  168. 168.

    srv

    June 17, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Did they think the PATRIOT Act was repealed when they voted Obama in, magickally?

    Not like he ever had any choice in the matter

    https://balloon-juice.com/2011/05/27/patriotism-in-action/

  169. 169.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    June 17, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    At what point do Dembots/Obots admit that the U.S. system of government, despite the massive levels of hope and change which have altered everything in the last five years, is utterly corrupt and must be replaced for anything positive to emerge from it?

    You forgot this part: Free Jerry Sandusky!

  170. 170.

    Yatsuno

    June 17, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead: I LIKE PIE!!!

  171. 171.

    FlipYrWhig

    June 17, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    @John Arbuthnot Fisher: “I was horrified to discover that my job at a government spy agency involved spying! For the government!”

  172. 172.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    @Scott S.:

    If only America were as monstrously abusive as they daydream about. Because then the Republican troll would get a bullet behind his ear and we could all have a little peace and quiet…

    And here we see the underlying Authoritarian instinct so prominent among Botsplainers. Because wishing violent death upon those who question Himself is a Progressive impulse.

  173. 173.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Whereas you just want to overthrow the government of the United States – which is totes going to happen peacefully and without anyone being harmed.

  174. 174.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 17, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Jeez, I thought it was hyperbole, so I googled. Ugh:

    Consumers would receive three types of alerts through the system: presidential alerts, imminent alerts of serious threats such as natural disasters and terrorist attacks, and Amber Alerts for missing children. Carriers may give subscribers the option of blocking all but the presidential messages, the FCC and FEMA said in a news release.

    Whoa whoa whoa, you mean if another dickbag becomes President, say Chris Christie, he can spam me 500x per day and it will take over my phone (the screen pops up without having to be opened).

    Those fuckers, I could see making FEMA/FCC alerts mandatory, like they used to have on radio but nobody listens to that shit anymore? THAT MAKES SENSE. But you can shut off disaster alerts but not presidential messages, whatever the hell that is.

    Anyway, I get plenty of messages from OfA as it is. Makes me feel appreciated. :DDDD Actually, they’ve dropped off because their website is b0rked so when I try to do an action alert it either doesn’t work or their speshull system doesn’t log that I did anything so they think I’m a slacktivist. Damnnnnnn you Democratic programmers!!

    Also, Amber alerts? Glad you can opt out of that. Seriously?

  175. 175.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 17, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    So it would be okay with you to have Obama risk his presidency and to hang the “Weak on Terrorism” collar around every Democrat’s neck for the next twenty years. You’re a brave little thing when it isn’t your ass on the line.

  176. 176.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 17, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    @Woodrowfan: Why bother? He’s already in possession of all the intel he will ever have. He’s just not that useful to the Chinese except as propaganda in the short term.

  177. 177.

    Mandalay

    June 17, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    @Yatsuno:

    You realise the enforcement for that is in Congress right?

    Of course. That is precisely why I said the whole game is completely rigged.

    …but expecting them to police themselves is laughable.

    I have never expected Congress to police themselves, but I had (foolishly) expected that they would do something about the Director of National Security lying to them. But Congress truly doesn’t seem to care.

  178. 178.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    @NickT:

    Indeed. And it’s now advocating overthrowing the government!

    Perhaps you should notify the NSA, which is recording our keystrokes as we type, Comrade!

  179. 179.

    SatanicPanic

    June 17, 2013 at 2:03 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Ooooh did I make the list?

  180. 180.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    I am pretty sure they laugh at your pissy little trollish attempts to sound like a liberal every day of the week. Everyone else does, after all. I bet they hold sweepstakes on what moronic gibbering the cretin who can’t spell Helen is going to utter next.

  181. 181.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    @Gindy51:

    Could it also be that once he became president he actually learned wtf goes on. As a candidate he would not have the same level of info that he has now. Seems to me a lot of people expect him to hold to those promises based on not knowing what he does now. Maybe he should have explained that but if that explaining would have led to security breaches maybe it is better he did not.

    You are correct, Comrade. It is better for us not to know what He chooses not to tell us.

  182. 182.

    Just One More Canuck

    June 17, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    @TooManyJens: By all accounts, the mayor of Calgary is a really interesting guy

  183. 183.

    ChrisNYC

    June 17, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    It’s hilarious that he thinks that US media coverage of China is “RED CHINA”! Is that just fapping or is he that ill-informed (shiver)? Glad he’s dabbling in foreign policy!

  184. 184.

    Comrade Dread

    June 17, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead: I prefer cake.

  185. 185.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 17, 2013 at 2:06 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    I am insouciant about my insouciance.

  186. 186.

    Comrade Jake

    June 17, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    All this talk of cake and pies… fuck you guys, seriously.

  187. 187.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    Maybe you can get cheesecake instead of pie?

  188. 188.

    Socoolsofresh

    June 17, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    @NickT: Ya, well they had power for four years, and did jack shit about curtailling NSA or reigning in the Patriot Act. Doubt that if they reclaimed the majority they would do anything about it. Especially since Obama has given the NSAs modus operandi his endorsement.

  189. 189.

    KmCO

    June 17, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    @Another Halocene Human: AMBER alerts usually concern abductions in which the child’s life is not at stake, which makes sense considering that the vast majority of child abductions are performed by a parent or legal guardian. So yes, it makes sense to be able to opt out of having one’s phone be consumed with reports of non-emergency abductions.

  190. 190.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    @NickT:

    Careful, little troll. Your RedState roots are showing.

    As a means of discrediting their opponents, Botsplainers are ever ready to link dissenting commenters to vaguely menacing right wing web sites.

  191. 191.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    @Comrade Jake:

    At least we didn’t mention bacon sandwiches and coffee or pizza and beer or the Chinese all you can eat buffet that does the wonderful Peking Duck.

    Oh….

  192. 192.

    Mandalay

    June 17, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    @FlipYrWhig:

    My guess would be that if you phrased the question so that “to prevent terrorist attacks” was closer to the beginning than the end, you would end up with overwhelming support.

    You may well be correct, but the reason I posted it was to show the support disparity between Democrats and Republicans which I found a bit surprising.

  193. 193.

    Ash Can

    June 17, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    OK, I’ll admit it; DougJ had me going there for a second. Well played.

    I only skimmed the thread here (so much talk about pie was making me hungry), so this may have been covered already, but I saw elsewhere that Snowden answered the question of his salary discrepancy — what he said he was making vs. what Booz Allen said he was being paid — by saying that he took a pay cut when he signed on with BAH. Did anyone ask why such a significant pay cut was acceptable to him? In all seriousness, I’m willing to believe that he had no choice due to sequestering or other cutbacks, but it struck me as odd that there was no other context.

  194. 194.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 17, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    @NickT:

    Mmmmmmmmm, cheesecake!

  195. 195.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Yes, but you aren’t dissenting, merely incontinent.

  196. 196.

    Socoolsofresh

    June 17, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    @piratedan: Ya, I must be a troll because I write things you disagree with! Better to censor, than to explain why your point is right!

  197. 197.

    FlipYrWhig

    June 17, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    @NickT: Well, IMHO “terrorist attack” shouldn’t be an all-purpose trump card like that. People would support a lot of noxious things if told they would prevent terrorist attacks.

    But more importantly, it doesn’t seem like any of these programs actually _do_ the kind of generalized eavesdropping that is still what most people are recoiling from. A poll question that described what was truly happening would not get the same response. Beyond that, though, we don’t have to wait on public opinion when a constitutional principle is at stake, and IMHO the best thing to do would be to tighten up and/or disclose the workings of the FISA Court. As long as the FISA Court is scrutinizing what’s happening, and not just being a rubber stamp that gives carte blanche to anything the executive feels like doing, I don’t see grounds for hair-on-fire outrage.

  198. 198.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    @FlipYrWhig:

    It shouldn’t be used that way – but it is and will continue to be as long as politicians and pollsters find it useful. That’s why Mandalay is being willfully naive in citing the poll in question.

  199. 199.

    SatanicPanic

    June 17, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    @Comrade Jake: I know, I’m hungry now. I hope one of those hipster food trucks visits my neighborhood today

  200. 200.

    NR

    June 17, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    @Scott S.: Your violent fantasies are fucking creepy. You’d be right at home in a group of brownshirts, you know that?

  201. 201.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):

    You forgot this part: Free Jerry Sandusky!

    Here we see illustrated perhaps what a Botsplainer considers to be its ultimate weapon. Though completely ineffectual, this innuendo has the benefit of causing a secret thrill to run up the Bot’s thigh while often derailing.

    Generally, Botsplainers also favor pre-trial lynching. See Manning, Sandusky, Zimmerman, Snowden, etc. Oddly, they do not generally favor trials for Bush or Cheney.

  202. 202.

    Ash Can

    June 17, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    PS: Never mind, I found the info elsewhere.

  203. 203.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    I am not surprised to find Sandusky and Zimmermann among your heroes.

  204. 204.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    So your comment/attitude further illustrates the fact that it makes little difference which party is in power at a given time. The Dems are weak whether in majority or minority, and the Repubs dominate regardless.

  205. 205.

    Socoolsofresh

    June 17, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    @FlipYrWhig: It’s funny, Obama was elected on him making many promises about things that progressives liked! Now he doesn’t really do any of the things he was elected on! I’m not mad, its just funny that when one calls a spade a spade, people say you must be a purity troll or some other ‘witty’ name to easily dismiss one. I understand one needs to compromise and that Republicans have tried to stop anything in his agenda, but this surveillance state stuff is not another Obama saying he has no control over it, he clearly endorses it, and that is a complete turnaround from his campaign in 2008.

  206. 206.

    Comrade Dread

    June 17, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    Oddly, they do not generally favor trials for Bush or Cheney.

    Don’t bogard that joint, my friend. Pass it over to me…

  207. 207.

    NR

    June 17, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: Hey, I have an idea. I know it’s pretty crazy, but hear me out on this: Maybe, just maybe, there are things in the world that are more important than Obama’s political fortunes. And maybe, just maybe, the Constitution is one of those things.

  208. 208.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    @NickT:

    I bet they hold sweepstakes on what moronic gibbering the cretin who can’t spell Helen is going to utter next.

    And here we see a Botsplainer scraping the bottom of the barrel as it complains about improper spelling on the Intertrons. A Bostplainer of this extremely vicious and hysterical type is not likely to consider the possibility that a “misspelling” in a nym is perhaps a deliberate device of a sort.

    Because “you misspelled a word!” is a devastating insult on the Internet.

  209. 209.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Explain just how you would dismantle the security state if you were president. What specific legislation would be required and what specific presidential powers would you employ?

  210. 210.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 17, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    You are hallucinating. How you arrived at that conclusion from what I posted about your “let’s you and him fight attitude” towards the Democrats is beyond me.

  211. 211.

    pokeyblow

    June 17, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    Few have petted a phoenix. Many, however, especially here, have choked a chicken.

  212. 212.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Poor old Teddy. You got your own handle wrong and here you are whining when people laugh at you for it.

    Was it the pedophilia or the racism that attracted you more to Sandusky and Zimmermann?

  213. 213.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    @NR:

    HOW DARE YOU?!

  214. 214.

    Comrade Jake

    June 17, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    We are all Botsplainers now.

  215. 215.

    Comrade Dread

    June 17, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    @NR: I’m curious, have you called or written your congressman yet about this?

  216. 216.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 17, 2013 at 2:22 pm

    @pokeyblow:

    As a veteran I resent that. I buffed my helmet, thank you.

  217. 217.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    I am sure pokeyblow has spent a lot of time buffing his little helmet. Slightly different sort of war though.

  218. 218.

    Comrade Dread

    June 17, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    @Comrade Jake: Damn, and here I was just getting used to being a socialist traitor seeking to impose Soviet communism on the job creators.

    Someone really needs to send out email alerts to let me know what conspiracy I’m guilty of on a given day.

  219. 219.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    @NickT:

    Hellen is indeed the name of one of my beloved pooches, and we intentionally spell it that way because she is a Hellion.

    Your disapproval and foolishness at calling it out only adds to my pleasure. I shall think of you each time I call her beloved name.

    “I don’t like the way you spell your dog’s name” is really the best you’ve got?

  220. 220.

    pokeyblow

    June 17, 2013 at 2:25 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: It’s like a gun. If you’re not careful, it can go off while you’re cleaning it.

  221. 221.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 2:25 pm

    @NickT:

    Was it the pedophilia or the racism that attracted you more to Sandusky and Zimmermann?

    Here we see the Botsplainer attempt to derail the contretemps into volatile side issues of a particularly vile nature. This is a common tactic.

  222. 222.

    Suffern ACE

    June 17, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    @Gindy51:

    Could it also be that once he became president he actually learned wtf goes on.

    O.K. But we’re mocking the 52 odd Senators who didn’t bother to show up for the NSA briefing and have been told that any time a Senator wants he can be debriefed. So don’t expect folks to buy this “well no one told me this NSA stuff is actually important while I was a Senator.”

    What exactly did Obama in 2008 say that led folks to believe he thought the Security State as it existed in 2008 went too far?

  223. 223.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    June 17, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: You are the only one I didn’t pie so we’re going to have to make the best of this.

  224. 224.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    So, you have an intimate relationship with a misspelled dog. I guess that indicates some sort of moral development from your sexual passion for dead chickens.

    Or you could just be lying about that too.

  225. 225.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Not at all. You brought them up with approval.

    I am guessing you are more of a Sandusky kind of troll.

  226. 226.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    June 17, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Yeah, sure, that’s what that was about, Pedo & Hellen.

  227. 227.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    June 17, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    : )

  228. 228.

    Socoolsofresh

    June 17, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    @NickT: I know that this will flip people out, but at first I would try and stay consistent with the constitution! I would provide more oversight for NSA spying and not just a FISA rubber stamp court. I would argue that terrorist attacks that have occurred is not due to lack of information, but failure to act on the information already available. I would also stop scaremongering and have people be so paranoid about a terrorist attack when one is 4x more likely to die by lightning.

  229. 229.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 2:29 pm

    @NickT: By definition, doesn’t something have to start before it can cease?

  230. 230.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    @Another Halocene Human: It’s almost as if political persuasions existed on a two-dimensional plane instead of a one-dimensional line.

  231. 231.

    Comrade Jake

    June 17, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    @Socoolsofresh:

    I would also stop scaremongering and have people be so paranoid about a terrorist attack when one is 4x more likely to die by lightning.

    Just as I was about to walk out to the parking deck. Damn you, Socoolsofresh. Damn you to hell.

  232. 232.

    White Trash Liberal

    June 17, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    Notice a question not asked:

    Did the NSA have direct access to these tech giant central servers? Could you clarify how information was retrieved and the process by which it could be investigated?

    Which is strange considering that is the central question dogging the whole story.

  233. 233.

    srv

    June 17, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    Could it also be that once he became president he actually learned wtf goes on.

    Maybe Putin can give him some lessons on FP in Ireland this week.

  234. 234.

    Joel

    June 17, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    About 10% of the posts in this thread are from Ted Bundy and another 20% are people replying to him.

  235. 235.

    Eric U.

    June 17, 2013 at 2:35 pm

    I don’t know how much influence a president really has over the three letter agencies. Cheney and company were busy giving them legal cover to do stuff they knew they would do if given the opportunity. It’s tough for a president to say that they can’t do things that follow the law. That’s why we have a non-political personnel system, to keep the political influence down. Doesn’t work all the time, but the way to stop this security nonsense is through the law.

    The whole thing about the Dems having control for a year is more than a little disconcerting. Anyone that was paying attention knew that the Dem contingent to congress was deeply flawed. We had at least 3 senators that were on the Republican side most of the time. It was obvious to me that Obama was going to have a hard time getting these people to do anything, and history has shown this to be true. Doesn’t mean that we wouldn’t be better off with more Dems in congress, that implication is simply crazy

  236. 236.

    ? Martin

    June 17, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Ya, well they had power for four years, and did jack shit about curtailling NSA or reigning in the Patriot Act. Doubt that if they reclaimed the majority they would do anything about it. Especially since Obama has given the NSAs modus operandi his endorsement.

    Well, we know what Congress did up front, and you’re right, they did jack shit.

    As far as what the executive branch has done, or what the back-and-forth with Congress has achieved, that we largely don’t know. We know that the WH provided more information to Congress than was done previously. Obama has also shifted the program from the CIA to the DOD. Did those things produce better outcomes? We don’t know. It’s been reported (and Obama has stated himself) that additional safeguards have been put around the NSA programs. The revelations of the last few weeks so far have been sensational only to collapse into a reality that seems relatively mundane. So do those safeguards work? Maybe. Are the adequate? Don’t know. But you’d expect some of Snowden’s assertions to stick a bit better if there was abuse going on.

    So I think the real problem is that we don’t know if the NSA was reigned in or not. And the only way we would be able to measure that is to get an accounting of how the NSA abused the system prior, and I don’t see that happening.

    So, I guess my question to you is what evidence would need to be produced to show that any progress has been made?

  237. 237.

    pokeyblow

    June 17, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    @Eric U.: Speaking of Cheney, he’s out dissing Snowden now. Sounds like a regular around here.

  238. 238.

    LAC

    June 17, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    @Ted & Hellen: Look at the big brain on Ted – jaysus, Snowden makes some jerkoff comment, and you spend all fucking day on it as if he gave a major policy speech. “Bot this”and “contretemps” that. Can your dog Helen start typing now ’cause we need a break. Or is it peanut butter time for you two?

  239. 239.

    Socoolsofresh

    June 17, 2013 at 2:37 pm

    Obama in 2007:

    “This administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom. That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary.”

    source:
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/flashback-obama-railed-against-monitoring-citizens-who-did-n

  240. 240.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    @Ted & Hellen: Last I checked, Ron and Rand were registered Republicans. But you were saying?

  241. 241.

    Comrade Jake

    June 17, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    Hey! Has anyone seen the trailers for the new Lone Ranger movie? Doesn’t that look all kinds of awful?

  242. 242.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    @Socoolsofresh:

    That’s remarkably vague for someone who thinks Obama could just do this any time he likes.

  243. 243.

    scav

    June 17, 2013 at 2:40 pm

    @Joel: Well, that proves he’s not a goldfish, doesn’t it? Don’t they explode from eating too much available food? Ahhh for the urban legends of childhood, would that they were true.

  244. 244.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 17, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    @Socoolsofresh: @FlipYrWhig: It’s funny, Obama was elected on him making many promises about things that progressives liked! Now he doesn’t really do any of the things he was elected on!

    Really, Muffin? We still have 200K troops in Iraq? We didn’t pass a national health care plan? He hasn’t done more for the enviroment and gay rights than any President before him? He hasn’t appointed two progressive judges to the Supreme Court? We’ve invaded and occupied which country under false pretenses? He hasn’t reversed Bush’s ban on stem cell research? He didn’t overturn Bush’s gag rule? DADT is still in place?

  245. 245.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Seventeen of you went into my pie filter today.

    You’re a complete shithead.

    (This is a test.)

  246. 246.

    Comrade Jake

    June 17, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Really, Muffin? We still have 200K troops in Iraq? We didn’t pass a national health care plan? He hasn’t done more for the enviroment and gay rights than any President before him? He hasn’t appointed two progressive judges to the Supreme Court? We’ve invaded and occupied which country under false pretenses? He hasn’t reversed Bush’s ban on stem cell research? He didn’t overturn Bush’s gag rule? DADT is still in place?

    Well, just because he’s not literally Bush, doesn’t mean he still can’t be WORSE THAN BUSH!!!

  247. 247.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    June 17, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    Seven more of you went into my pie filter. I won’t tolerate tardiness. If you aren’t fifteen minutes early, you are late.

  248. 248.

    pokeyblow

    June 17, 2013 at 2:44 pm

    @Socoolsofresh: So what? He may be president and all, but he’s powerless to do anything and if you point out anything imperfect about him you’re a total racist.

  249. 249.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    So, about that money I am holding for you…

  250. 250.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    You’re a brave little thing when it isn’t your ass elbow on the line.

    Just trying to make it a little easier for them to understand.

  251. 251.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    @Another Halocene Human:

    He’s already in possession of all the intel he will ever have.

    American intel. It remains to be seen how much Chinese intelligence he’ll be able to bring to the Russians.

  252. 252.

    MomSense

    June 17, 2013 at 2:50 pm

    Snowden guaranteed he wouldn’t get a fair trial by leaving the country. Period. End of story. You can’t leave the country and complain about not getting a fair trial. This is total BS. I would be far more sympathetic if he stayed in the country and fought his case on the merits.

  253. 253.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    June 17, 2013 at 2:51 pm

    @Socoolsofresh:

    That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists.

    And just what proves that he’s done differently?

    The FISA court works.

    You sure found a way to undercut your own argument. didn’t you?

  254. 254.

    SatanicPanic

    June 17, 2013 at 2:51 pm

    @Comrade Jake: Depp needs a new schtick

  255. 255.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    June 17, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    @Socoolsofresh: The FISA court works.

    So now you’re mad because he did what he said he would do as a candidate, or you want to move the goalposts after the fact? JANE!, is that you?

  256. 256.

    Comrade Dread

    June 17, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    @pokeyblow: I see you’ve managed to get the nails through your hands and feet. Do you need help with putting the crown of thorns on?

  257. 257.

    pokeyblow

    June 17, 2013 at 2:54 pm

    @Comrade Dread: No, I dress — and think for — myself.

    Thanks for the offer, though.

  258. 258.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 2:55 pm

    @Ted & Hellen: Makes sense now: most of your comments are dogs.

  259. 259.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 2:55 pm

    @Comrade Dread:

    Don’t forget the complimentary drink of vinegar and lance thrust to the side.

  260. 260.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    @Suffern ACE:

    He’s already in possession of all the intel he will ever have.

    “Hope” and “Change”. How could anyone be unclear about that?

  261. 261.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    June 17, 2013 at 2:57 pm

    @different-church-lady: Kinda like this?

  262. 262.

    LAC

    June 17, 2013 at 2:58 pm

    @pokeyblow: Good to see that GED was put to good use. Now, when you open the door, you will be on the oooutsssssside! Ok, wait first go to the door…the one with a thing on it…a doorknob….no, you do not have to plug it in.

  263. 263.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    @NickT:

    So, you have an intimate relationship with a misspelled dog.

    They’ve scrooed the pooch.

  264. 264.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    He’s just barking mad!

    badumtish!

  265. 265.

    pokeyblow

    June 17, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    @LAC: Had to catch my breath after that one.

    You’re a riot, so creative!

  266. 266.

    gelfling545

    June 17, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    I suppose that in the long run it will be a good thing that all this came out but, as far as Edward Snowdon’s goals & ambitions go, it strikes me that things may not work out quite the way he imagined. He comes across as rather naive which gives one to ponder just what i going on here. I suspect that he would be better served by keeping his mouth shut just now and letting events unfold.

  267. 267.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    @Comrade Jake:

    Has anyone seen the trailers for the new Lone Ranger movie? Doesn’t that look all kinds of awful?

    I glanced at the TV long enough to see that little segment of the train going off the cliff and I thought, “FUCKING LAWS OF PHYSICS, HOW DO THEY WORK?”

  268. 268.

    ? Martin

    June 17, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    @Socoolsofresh:

    That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war.

    Is there any evidence that any of those things are happening, even in Snowden’s reveal?

    Mueller indicated that their procedures line up with Obama’s statements there. All wiretaps need a subpoena, the national security letters are only used to obtain identifying information (even though they can get a lot of that on the free market, they still need the letter) but not any underlying information, and if citizens are being tracked for other things, the courts are allowing it, so I’m not sure how we measure that one.

    Now, Mueller could certainly be lying, but Snowden hasn’t provided any evidence yet that he isn’t (nor has anyone else). So far the tech companies that have put out details have universally indicated that there is no abuse at work. If there was abuse, they’d not say anything as there is no obligation on them to reveal any details. So we should be able to trust that at least the four of them that have revealed aren’t involved in any abuse. The phone companies haven’t said shit, nor do I expect them to. So there could be monkey business there.

    Now, Obama’s promise there is much more limited than a lot of his critics believe it was. It’s fine to expect more (and I think its reasonable to expect more than what he promised there), but so far it doesn’t appear to be a promise unmet.

  269. 269.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 3:05 pm

    @different-church-lady: Now, I do hate it when I deploy a joke incorrectly:

    You’re a brave little thing when it isn’t your ass elbow on the line.

  270. 270.

    pokeyblow

    June 17, 2013 at 3:06 pm

    @gelfling545: I don’t know about you, but I’m more worried about what happens to America than what happens to Edward Snowden. So if leaking the information is a good thing, and I think it probably is, I wish Snowden well. Whether it makes him a lot of friends or not, however, isn’t central to my analysis.

  271. 271.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 3:07 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    I do hate it when I deploy a joke incorrectly

    That’s what pokeyblow’s supervisor must be thinking right now.

  272. 272.

    Seanly

    June 17, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    You don’t have to flee to China to get the Phoenix pet. Blizzard will let you order that now! It’s bind to account so each of your toons gets it!

  273. 273.

    scav

    June 17, 2013 at 3:13 pm

    @different-church-lady: It was a wonderful new bodypart I noticed at the time and it explains perfectly where, how and what they’ve got out of joint. Still, they and their mega overlord overseas have managed to make this firestorm all about them, so maybe we’ll be getting the troll bikini round soon and then they’ll be a vote and the besashing and becrowning of the most bepure.

  274. 274.

    pokeyblow

    June 17, 2013 at 3:15 pm

    @scav: Hondius!

  275. 275.

    scav

    June 17, 2013 at 3:16 pm

    @pokeyblow: Cartography still a thorn in your intellect so you’re going all Harry Potter jammies?

  276. 276.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 3:17 pm

    @scav:

    it explains perfectly where, how and what they’ve got out of joint.

    You ever had a hair across your elbow? It’s incredibly painful…

  277. 277.

    pokeyblow

    June 17, 2013 at 3:17 pm

    @scav: No, my knowledge thereof suffices for day-to-day purposes.

    Did you ever figure out what “ban” means?

  278. 278.

    pokeyblow

    June 17, 2013 at 3:18 pm

    @scav: Harry Potter, and especially Harry Potter jammies… that’s something I know nothing about. So if you’d like to explain, that’d be fine.

  279. 279.

    Comrade Dread

    June 17, 2013 at 3:22 pm

    I glanced at the TV long enough to see that little segment of the train going off the cliff and I thought, “FUCKING LAWS OF PHYSICS, HOW DO THEY WORK?”

    That depends, did you go to school in Louisiana?

  280. 280.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 3:26 pm

    I notice that CNN is using language like “a series of blog posts on Monday purportedly by Edward Snowden” and “in 90 minutes of live online chatting, the person identified as Snowden by Britain’s Guardian newspaper.” They too are not accepting as proven gospel Snowden was actually responding.

    That is some amazing ass trolling you pulled off there, Doug J! I mean, at first I thought you had made up the “Snowden” quote you pulled. Now I realize you actually sold the Guardian on being Snowden!

  281. 281.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    June 17, 2013 at 3:31 pm

    @AliceBlue: Which is quite an accomplishment…

  282. 282.

    Ben Cisco

    June 17, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    @J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: Outstanding!

  283. 283.

    Ben Cisco

    June 17, 2013 at 3:35 pm

    @Yatsuno:

    No no no. Don’t you get it? Once Obama was elected he was supposed to nullify every conservative law ever passed and install firebagger utopia with one executive order.

    All while banging his shoe d**k on the podium…

  284. 284.

    FlipYrWhig

    June 17, 2013 at 3:37 pm

    @Socoolsofresh: Making surveillance subject to the approval of the FISA Court would be consistent with that entire statement, wouldn’t it? Remember, the Bush admin was saying it didn’t even need to do that. Again, the most valid complaint IMHO is that we can’t be assured that the FISA Court is taking its job seriously. Accordingly, a left-right coalition of Senators wants to do something about that to shed a little light on FISA practices. So… let’s do that. And let’s let the ACLU or whoever slug it out with the Obama administration over whether data collection and data-mining are in accordance with the 4th Amendment.

  285. 285.

    Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)

    June 17, 2013 at 3:37 pm

    @? Martin:

    Given the fact that Snowden seems primarily upset about the US spying on foreign countries, I’m increasingly skeptical of his domestic spying claims. They seem like the honeypot Snowden used to get Greenwald’s assistance to flee the country.

  286. 286.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 3:54 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    After the collapse of the direct access claim, it’s not clear that Snowden has anything new to say about America’s civil liberties – which is probably why he’s started to focus on the equally unsurprising things that governments do to each other to gather data.

  287. 287.

    LAC

    June 17, 2013 at 3:57 pm

    @pokeyblow: I’m so glad you caught your breath – let it out too – it’s called breeeeeeeathing

  288. 288.

    LAC

    June 17, 2013 at 4:00 pm

    @NickT: Something tells me pokey is the sort who sends emails around every Wednesday with that Geico camel and then pops up (unwanted) at someones cubicle going “Did you get it? Still funnah!!!!!”

  289. 289.

    Suffern ACE

    June 17, 2013 at 4:01 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): In the first interview he gave, the esipionage tactics he says he witnessed in Switzerland seemed to be his come to Jesus moment. However, the techniques he described (getting someone in trouble with the law; blackmailing them into helping) seem fairly standard stuff from spy novels. It’s not exactly known for its honesty.

  290. 290.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    June 17, 2013 at 4:15 pm

    Watching Snowden in action is like watching a child playing with a lighter and a five gallon can of gasoline in a room full of explosives, you just know this isn’t going to end well.

    At least it’s not my kid.

  291. 291.

    NonyNony

    June 17, 2013 at 4:37 pm

    @? Martin:

    So far the tech companies that have put out details have universally indicated that there is no abuse at work. If there was abuse, they’d not say anything as there is no obligation on them to reveal any details. So we should be able to trust that at least the four of them that have revealed aren’t involved in any abuse. The phone companies haven’t said shit, nor do I expect them to. So there could be monkey business there.

    I wouldn’t trust a tech company like Google, Microsoft, Comcast or AT&T as far as I could throw their corporate headquarters.

    However – these are huge companies. If they were outright lying about something like this, some network tech somewhere in the organization who had to setup the system would probably out them as liars. There’s a slim chance that all of those organizations only employ drones who would refuse to correct the record on this, but it’s slim.

    In fact the explanation I’ve been hearing floating around sounds very credible – the companies have servers setup where they transfer info that the NSA picks up via ftp. Sounds about right – there’s no way IN HELL that a company like Google is giving the NSA full access to their internal network like folks were claiming without being forced to do so by the law – there’s too much of a chance of corporate espionage to allow that to happen.

  292. 292.

    Patricia Kayden

    June 17, 2013 at 4:44 pm

    @different-church-lady: Why do you guys torture yourselves by reading T&H? You already know what he’s going to say without reading his comments.

    It’s always BLAH BLAH BLAH Obama failed BLAH BLAH BLAH. Or something racist. Or something idiotic.

    As to Snowden, President Obama sure is lucky with who his enemies are. The Patriot Act should be repealed and replaced with something that doesn’t allow such mass surveillance, but Snowden/Greenwald probably aren’t helping to make that case.

  293. 293.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 4:50 pm

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Or something racist.

    In this instance, we see the common Botsplainer technique of applying the unspecified and all encompassing term RACIST. The Botsplainer attempts to schmear the opponent as a RACIST for saying or writing something RACIST, an inherently subjective judgment, but supplies NO supporting evidence. Most commonly the accused has had the temerity to oppose an action of Barack Obama (who is actually half white also) or supports the rights of the accused not to be lynched, as in the Zimmerman case, equally appalling and RACIST actions to be sure.

    Note also the splainers desperate plea to other Botsplainers not to engage the non-Bot, as the splainers fee fees have been wounded in their so doing. Or something.

  294. 294.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 4:52 pm

    Why do you guys torture yourselves by reading T&H?

    Why do cats bat toy mice around?

  295. 295.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    @Patricia Kayden:

    The Patriot Act should be repealed and replaced with something that doesn’t allow such mass surveillance,

    And here we see the common Botsplainer attempt to present their hero as a limp noodle of an executive, suffering at the whim of the legislative branch, and completely without discretion to enforce the laws as it seems fit. For instance, one assumes, Himself could choose to not use the NSA snooping powers while urging congress to repeal them. IF that was what Himself believed was best. Yet again we have the strange spectre of an Obot, having insisted on the vital necessity of electing the One to office, assuring us of his powerlessness once the deed is done.

  296. 296.

    Forum Transmitted Disease

    June 17, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    @Patricia Kayden: I’ve been suing Troll-B-Gone. It’s a little disconcerting. Not only can you not read any postings by the trolls you add to it, but you can’t read the replies people make to them.

    Balloon Juice threads stay on topic with very little abuse or name calling. Having been used to this place with that not being the case for such a long time, it’s pretty weird. Bizzaro Juice or something like that.

    Anyhow, it works for Chome an Firefox and is easy to install, so if the trolls got you down, try it.

  297. 297.

    Ben Cisco

    June 17, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Why do you guys torture yourselves by reading T&H? You already know what he’s going to say without reading his comments.

    It’s always BLAH BLAH BLAH Obama failed BLAH BLAH BLAH.

    Like a mirror universe adult in a Charlie Brown cartoon. Only you can’t actually see the goatee.

    ETA: and FTD beat me to it.

  298. 298.

    Patricia Kayden

    June 17, 2013 at 4:56 pm

    @Joel: Ha! Not all of us are responding. LOL.

    As I read some of the comments here, I’m trying to figure out who are the people who are enraged at the NSA revelations. I’ve yet to hear of any marches/protests or even any online petitions to end/curtail NSA surveillance.

    The ACLU has filed a lawsuit and Rand Paul is threatening to file a class action lawsuit, so there’s that I suppose.

  299. 299.

    Patricia Kayden

    June 17, 2013 at 5:01 pm

    @Forum Transmitted Disease: You should listen to Stephanie Miller’s show when she plays the “troll be gone spray” ad.

    She gets people all the time who claim to be Republican, open minded business owners, who just happened to be channel surfing when they noticed her show. Then they start throwing out their Fox News points in rapid succession before she shuts them down. HILARIOUS!

  300. 300.

    LAC

    June 17, 2013 at 5:01 pm

    @Ted & Hellen: Who are you explaining this to? You sound like some voiceover for a Mutual of Omaha’s “Wild Kingdom” if it was being shown to fucking morons…or your friends.

  301. 301.

    Forum Transmitted Disease

    June 17, 2013 at 5:07 pm

    @Patricia Kayden: Well, this isn’t so much hilarious. Cleek’s filter turns every troll post into hilarity. Troll-B-Gone just eliminates them, turning the venue into a nice discussion between reasonable people. Its beauty is that it kills those who respond to the trolling just as effectively as it kills the troll posts itself.

    The disruption is caused not only by the trolls, but also by the few people here who just cannot help themselves and respond to them. Then the well-intentioned reader has to wade through a shitfest, the thread rapidly becomes unreadable, and a lot of folks give up after a while; it becomes very tedious to deal with this in every single thread.

    Of course, that is the goal.

    Now there’s a way around it.

  302. 302.

    Ted & Hellen

    June 17, 2013 at 5:20 pm

    @Forum Transmitted Disease:

    Ah, you sweet delicate child. So tremulous in the face of life outside a Bot echo chamber.

    Cute. And pathetic.

  303. 303.

    keestadoll

    June 17, 2013 at 5:42 pm

    Huh. Can’t think of any reason at all Snowden would be hiding in a country that has such a fabulous record of cyber-security give and take with the US…[scratches head]. Also…

    Huh. Can’t imagine why so many want to kill the messenger in BJ-land…[head-slap because duh: inconvenient truths, just the amount of appropriate time has elapsed before we defend our Guy].

    Oh wait! It all MAKES SENSE.

    Keep slurping. Keep justifying.

    Maybe he doesn’t want to disappear.

    Fuck! The outrage!

  304. 304.

    different-church-lady

    June 17, 2013 at 5:51 pm

    @keestadoll:

    [head-slap because duh: inconvenient half-truths…

    Fixed that for you.

  305. 305.

    LAC

    June 17, 2013 at 6:01 pm

    @different-church-lady: See, that is why I do not filter – the funny is too good.

  306. 306.

    Elie

    June 17, 2013 at 6:06 pm

    @Comrade Dread:

    “But, if nothing else, he’s done the NSA a huge favor in pointing out how low the standards are for hiring with our government contractors.”

    This may have been his greatest gift.

  307. 307.

    KmCO

    June 17, 2013 at 6:21 pm

    @LAC:

    See, that is why I do not filter – the funny is too good.

    I at least enjoy a good old-fashioned disemvoweling. Renders troll output into barely-legible mush rather than merely barely-sensical mush.

  308. 308.

    keestadoll

    June 17, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    @different-church-lady: Yeah, kind of didn’t need the valiant bulldozers coming in to make that loophole tunnel bigger, but thanks anyway.

  309. 309.

    LAC

    June 17, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    @KmCO: and we learn things about our trolls. For instance I now know that Helen is not some terrified woman in the basement or a blowup doll propped by by the computer but a dog just praying that daddy the artist remembers to feed him.

  310. 310.

    JC

    June 17, 2013 at 6:57 pm

    Well, this is a good story about regular eavesdropping, and then sharing stories with others! Gather round! Your intimate moments are available for analysts, for their amusement!

  311. 311.

    A Humble Lurker

    June 17, 2013 at 7:13 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    WHY ARE YOU BLINDLY WORSHIPING THIS GOD!? WHY AREN’T YOU BLINDLY WORSHIPING MY GOD!?!?!?!111!?1!1!?

  312. 312.

    NickT

    June 17, 2013 at 7:17 pm

    @LAC:

    I would guess any dog owned by Ted & Hellen spends its nights wishing to die and its days plotting vengeance.

  313. 313.

    El Cid

    June 17, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    If he was a true patriot he would simply have shown up at Guantanamo and ask to be held indefinitely.

  314. 314.

    David Koch

    June 17, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    Give it up, Dougie.

    This is a dry hole.

    Even the liberal Markos said the other day people don’t care because he hasn’t seen any increase in blog traffic.

    And if you look at Balloon-Juice’s traffic meter, he’s right.

    This just hasn’t produced any spike in traffic.

    Moreover the tee vee ratings have floundered. CHayes’ exclusive interview with greenwald produced the lowest rated MSNBC 8PM show in 10 years. Ouch.

    The dogs just aren’t eating the dog food.

    Hopefully, a massive earthquake will come along and drive up ratings.

  315. 315.

    David Koch

    June 17, 2013 at 7:34 pm

    @El Cid: what country did ellsberg, joe wilson, and sibel edmonds flee to?

  316. 316.

    keestadoll

    June 17, 2013 at 7:46 pm

    @David Koch: Well shit. After all that I know I shouldn’t care anymore! Thanks!

  317. 317.

    KmCO

    June 17, 2013 at 7:48 pm

    @LAC: Somehow the thought of that individual owning a dog fills me with the compelling urge to call the ASPCA.

  318. 318.

    lojasmo

    June 17, 2013 at 8:06 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Yes, because a person who sold out his security clearance is to be believed in all things.

    Right.

  319. 319.

    lojasmo

    June 17, 2013 at 8:22 pm

    @Ted & Hellen:

    I have just now lost the will to live

    I am disappoint.

  320. 320.

    LAC

    June 17, 2013 at 9:22 pm

    @NickT: while her dog friends bark among themselves that Helen’s dad is soooooo lame!

  321. 321.

    LAC

    June 17, 2013 at 9:24 pm

    @KmCO: “hello? ASPCA? There is a dog being bored to death”.

  322. 322.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 18, 2013 at 12:15 am

    @srv: White male?

    A lot of people defected back. Both sides were looking for propaganda “See how people flee the failed and failing regime?”

  323. 323.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 18, 2013 at 12:36 am

    @KmCO: Exactly. I’m trying to figure out why anyone would opt in. Why not just set up a twitter feed for the usual suspects in the tv news crews?

  324. 324.

    Another Halocene Human

    June 18, 2013 at 12:41 am

    @Comrade Jake: Looks like a big extended Disney Fuck You to Native Americans, but what do I know?

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