John Boehner’s nemesis Nancy Pelosi did an “Ask the Leader” panel at Netroots Nation today; there’s a Storify about it here. Here’s Dave Weigel’s take:
Netroots Nation hasn’t been overly defined by security issues, and it hasn’t centered around massive keynote speeches. The exceptions came during the Saturday lunch session, when activists grabbed Sierra Club-sponsored sandwiches and Pepsi products and watched Rep. Nancy Pelosi get grilled by blogger Zerlina Maxwell. She was the only member of the Democratic leadership in either house to appear at the conference.
So she got the NSA questions. They came in the form of submissions from the audience (around half the questions, supposedly, were about the scandal) but they got a response when hecklers started asking Pelosi about the story. She rushed to defend the administration from charges of Cheney-ism…
“It’s so important to subject this to harsh scrutiny,” said Pelosi. “You should reject any notion that President Obama’s actions have anything to do with what President Bush was doing.”
Meanwhile, security guards were dragging Perkel away. “Leave him alone!” shouted a few activists. “No secret courts!” yelled Perkel as he moved out of the room. “No secret laws!”
It felt like a small-scale interruption; Perkel and his co-hecklers represented maybe 0.1 percent of the crowd. But Pelosi went back to the ire well, insisting that “as far as [it goes with Edward] Snowden, you may disagree with me, but he did violate the law in terms of releasing those documents. The fact is, we have to have a balance between security and privacy.”
Finally, Pelosi got a kind of bailout. An activist near the front of the room yelled about security consultants. “You’re absolutely right!” said Pelosi. “I’m with you babe, all the way! If you couldn’t hear her, the real problem, she said, is outsourcing our national security. I get criticized by this community a lot. [Former NSA director Mike] O’Connell worked at Booz Allen Hamilton, came in, worked in the federal government, exatled to the positions he was, hired consultants galore, contractors galore from Booz Allen Hamilton. And now he’s at Booz Allen again. This really is astounding.”
In a neat twist, Pelosi had turned the conversation back to the threats of the private sector, and of Bush administration outrages….
More at the link. Goddess bless the lady, I wish us Democrats had a thousand (or even a couple dozen) high-visibility professionals with that kind of talent.
wmd
I believe that Perkel came by the booth I was helping at early on Thursday. If he’s the guy I’m thinking of (From pictures I’ve seen of the guy being escorted from Pelosi’s talk I think he is) he didn’t make a good impression on me – he wanted to ramble, not let other people engage with us and just generally came across as a crank.
c u n d gulag
She got the audience back.
THAT’S the difference between not only her and Republican politicians, but the different audiences.
Marco Rubio got boo’d at some astroturf Tea Party event, and, no matter what he said or did, there’s no way the audience would get back on his side.
It’s not only that you have to agree with today’s Manichean Conservatives 100% of the time – it’s that, once you commit one sin, it becomes a heresy worthy of ex-communication.
At the end, she got a standing “O!”
Rubio, got an “Oh, you feckin’ worthless RINO!!!”
The Dangerman
I snuck a peek at the GOS after Snowden continued his magical mystery tour in Moscow this morning (“coming to take you away, take you away”); a lot of searching for some cleaning spray for their tarnished “hero”.
askew
Netroots Nation has become an embarrassment. I still remember their conduct in 2010 when Angry Mouse berated a WH staffer instead of moderating a Q&A session like she was supposed to. And Dan Choi’s nonsense as well. The only difference between CPAC and NN is that the Democratic establishment doesn’t take their nutjobs as seriously as the Republican establishment.
Liberty60
However much I disagree with the Administration over the NSA issue, it is equally important to always stress that Obama, Pelosi, and the Democratic leadership are head and shoulders above any Republican in sight, on the issue of who can be trusted with this power.
All the more reason liberals need to stake out a position that protects security without lapsing into Cheneyesque jingoism.
askew
@The Dangerman:
They are now switching the conversation from Greenwald and Snowden worship to “lets focus on the issues”. All that matters to them is that they get to bash Obama.
Joey Maloney
Marc Perkel, now there’s a blast from the past. Guy’s been around since the birth of the commercial web if not longer. I honestly thought I recalled hearing he’d died.
Botsplainer, fka Todd
@The Dangerman:
I noticed that one prolific firebagger was proclaiming that this is his primary issue, and that this will define his votes – not race, not social justice, not economics, not DOMA.
It’s a puzzlement, I tells ya.
Villago Delenda Est
This, right here, is all you need to know about Perkel. Obviously at Netroots as an opportunist with an agenda…and not a very pleasant one, I might add.
Villago Delenda Est
@askew:
This is all it has ever been about.
smintheus
First time Pelosi had one of these phony Q&As at NN, she avoided taking serious questions by having Gore make a ‘surprise’ appearance and then ramble on for the remainder of the time about climate change…which would have been just about the least controversial topic among attendees. Yeah, that was a ‘clever’ way as well of pretending to take activists seriously while fobbing them off with nothing. But it didn’t impress me in the slightest as the kind of stunt a serious politician would ever pull.
This was just more of the same from Pelosi. The NSA is secretly spying on Americans in contravention of the 4th Amendment, and she’s changing the subject to private contractors. As ‘clever’ as a heart attack.
FlipYrWhig
@askew: I’ve been thinking that Snowden is on the Dan Choi track, from sympathetic, symbolic and reasonably articulate martyr to… let’s just say something else.
Botsplainer, fka Todd
@Villago Delenda Est:
To me, their embrace of him pretty much makes him the face of Nutroots Nation.
Rebels without a clue.
Botsplainer, fka Todd
@smintheus:
FTFY
bill d
Perkel is a complete jerk. I wish certain segments of the left wouldn’t rush to embrace every single interrupting jackass.
askew
@FlipYrWhig:
That sounds about right. I am just curious if he’ll end up taking down Greenwald with him. Though Greenwald has tons more fanboys than Choi ever did. John Cole has the vapors right now that David Gregory dared to ask Greenwald if he should be charged with a crime.
Whatever happened to Dan Choi? Last I heard he was taking victory laps for making the president repeal DADT.
dmsilev
@Botsplainer, fka Todd: You Pelosibots will accept anything.
(am I doing it right?)
smintheus
@Botsplainer, fka Todd: That’s clever too.
pokeyblow
Love love love the way she said impeachment of Bush was off the table.
Sent a message to the republicans loud and clear about democrats’ willingness to fight.
bill d
@FlipYrWhig: I have more sympathy for Lt. Dan than I ever will for Snowden. A better analogy, imo, is Snowden as a left version of Joe the Plumber.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Villago Delenda Est: Oh, it’s a hoot looking at this guy’s site. He ran for senate as a Republican, has a post on his site against same sex marriage, and the one about slavery among others. He’s definitely not the guy anyone should be attaching their support to.
Villago Delenda Est
Vladimir Putin, champion of FREEDUMB! (Obligatory FLASHING warning…NewsMax link)
pokeyblow
Snowden = Joe the plumber, and CPAC = Netroots Nation?
Damn, the hysteria is getting pretty thick around here.
gbear
@bill d: Snowden has more frequent flyer miles.
Villago Delenda Est
@pokeyblow:
I didn’t like it much either (I’m of the opinion that the deserting coward, the Dark Lord, and most of their minions should go the way of Keitel, Jodl, and Tojo) but political reality was there was no way to get a conviction, no matter how damning the evidence was, no matter if there was a battalion of smoking guns. The utter scum of the GOP would have supported these maggots even if they personally tossed Jews in the ovens.
Botsplainer, fka Todd
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Actually, he’s perfect for the Nutroots.
Successful policy is counterproductive to putting on a constant tantrum by these mental defectives.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@pokeyblow: Actually, it all went downhill when Roosevel refused to shoot Stalin and end the Red menace before it acquired the atomic bomb.
Would you have ever gotten 2/3 of the senate? Pelos knows how to count votes.
Botsplainer, fka Todd
@pokeyblow:
Pretty much, except that JTP was less of a self-aggrandizing liar that Snowdon and his minion Greenwald.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@pokeyblow: Agree, the analogies are kind of overblown. I doubt a lot of people at NN knew who this guy was by looking at him, they just thought he needed to be allowed to speak (they are a bunch of liberals). Start telling people who he is and their statements would change to “Well, I don’t agree with what he says, but he can say what he wants” up until he started talking about stuff like I pointed out.
Villago Delenda Est
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
As she demonstrated last week when the Farm Bill debacle bit Boner in the ass.
pokeyblow
@Villago Delenda Est: Political reality be damned, what is the benefit of pre-emptively saying ‘don’t worry, we won’t even try to create consequences?’
The only reason I can think of for her saying that is her making an attempt to befriend the republicans. Which didn’t happen, and which sentient people knew wouldn’t happen.
My bitch isn’t that Bush walks free (although he shouldn’t), but rather… why the fuck did she say that?
Villago Delenda Est
@Botsplainer, fka Todd:
Are you sure the relationship isn’t the other way around? Snowden being Greenwald’s minion?
bill d
@Botsplainer, fka Todd: My JtP analogy was waaaay over the top and I apologize for that.
JtP’s fans and Snowden’s fans are a mirror image of each other though.
gbear
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
She should have used her bully pulpit!
Villago Delenda Est
@pokeyblow:
It’s a gaffe…she blurted out the unfortunate truth. It simply was never going to get any traction, and there were other fish to fry on Congress’ agenda.
Like I said, I didn’t like it either, but ever since Ford preemptively pardoned the criminal Nixon for anything he may have done while in office (gee, Gerry, even murder, or grand theft auto, or dumping toxic waste in a kindergarten sandbox?) it’s been “rule of law for thee and not for us!” as far as the highest levels of the political class are concerned.
Unless, of course, you get a blow job from a willing intern. Then we clear the table!
jamick6000
@pokeyblow:
yeeeees, both sides do it. they are =
these bots are getting as half-assed as Cilliza et al
Chris
@c u n d gulag:
pokeyblow
@Villago Delenda Est: In her position, with her role in various negotiations and politickings being what it is, I wouldn’t call it a gaffe, I’d call it a case of grand mal incompetence.
It royally pisses me off. And that attitude of mine keeps me listed as a troll around here.
Chyron HR
@pokeyblow:
Obviously comparing the NSA to the Stasi not in the least bit hysterical.
Villago Delenda Est
@pokeyblow:
She simply stated the honest political reality. Not stating “impeachment is off the table” wouldn’t have changed a thing, but perhaps assuage your feelings on the matter. I’m sure that in private she would have said pretty much the same thing, and by doing so probably would have made working with the assholes a smidgen easier at the cost of dampening our bloodlust.
Chris
@Liberty60:
It used to be possible to have two “liberal” factions playing a good-cop-bad-cop routine, the “mainstream,” centrist, electable ones that occupied the national office and the more populist ones to their left that urged them to move towards them. In the New Deal years it was FDR versus the more radical economic demagogues to his left (Huey Long being the epitome), in the civil rights you had MLK and other movement leaders versus the Kennedy/Johnson establishment. We haven’t had that dynamic in decades.
(Unfortunately, for this to be effective depends on the more left-wing populists having a meaningful demographic behind them. Which isn’t the case nowadays).
pokeyblow
@Chyron HR: Blanket, comprehensive surveillance being the goal of both, no, it doesn’t strike me as hysterical at all.
And people who read Dailykos are just like those who read free republic?
Villago Delenda Est
@Chyron HR:
Given that the wingtards are celebrating a former KGB officer as the champion of freedumb, you have to wonder what the fuck is in their koolaid.
jamick6000
pale, slimy Charles Murray fanboy Dave Weigel wrote an article? I’ll pass.
Villago Delenda Est
@pokeyblow:
Well, yes, because it’s the attitude of a screaming three year old.
That does not play well here.
pokeyblow
@Villago Delenda Est: So if I have a dispute with my neighbor, or my employer, you recommend I announce “a lawsuit from me is off the table.” ?
Because statements like that don’t change a thing?
gogol's wife
@Villago Delenda Est:
Oh, but the churches are open!
pokeyblow
@Villago Delenda Est: But “Netroots Nation = CPAC” is what seasoned grown-ups say?
Cacti
@Chyron HR:
Haven’t you heard, Moscow Ed Snowden is the new MLK, but braver, because MLK never had to worry about the Patriot Act.
Villago Delenda Est
@pokeyblow:
When you have no chance of convincing a jury to find for you, it’s an expression of reality.
Somehow I’m finding it difficult for you to grok the concept.
pokeyblow
@Villago Delenda Est: You are asserting opinion as fact. Grok that?
Also, should the state reward a prosecutor who says “a conviction is off the table?”
Would you hire a defense attorney in the habit of saying “acquittal won’t happen?”
I doubt it. But I assume you join others here in giving Nancy Pelosi accolades for her political skill.
Socoolsofresh
Yeah, netroots is now ‘nutroots’ Hmm this blog has evolved since 2006. Its funny, you guys seem to think almost every progressive blog and site are now too extreme for you. Thinking that they have changed, but really, the only ones who have had the power to change and abandon their ideals have been the Democratic establishment. But none dare criticize them here! Better to demonize messengers such as Snowden and Greenwald. Surprised there hasn’t been more talk around here about lionizing David Gregory for asking the tough questions to Greenwald this morning.
Botsplainer, fka Todd
@pokeyblow:
You’re right. There really isn’t a comparison.
A not inconsequential number of policymakers actually pay some attention to what grassroots activists at CPAC ask of them.
The Nutroots just get ignored, as it should be.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@pokeyblow: The people at Free Republic at least occasionally do the minimal work of defending their positions. I’ve never seen the slightest hint of that at Daily Kos. Closest thing to a “Lord of the Flies” mobocracy that exists on the internet, and their collective motto really should be the infamous “shut up, that’s why”.
Botsplainer, fka Todd
@Socoolsofresh:
Cry, emoprog, cry….
Cacti
@Socoolsofresh:
Yeah, the netroots. Which apparently now attracts neo-confederate bloggers like Marc Perkel.
Nutroots sounds about right.
Just Some Fuckhead
So our national security is only being subcontracted out when Republicans are in charge? Got it.
pokeyblow
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
LOL. If what you wrote doesn’t describe this place, I don’t know what does.
JWL
In a rare Sunday post at his Esquire blog, Charles Pierce lauds the investigative reporting of McClatchey journalists concerning a truly sinister program aimed at federal employees, conceived and implemented by the Obama administration.
Pierce perfectly captures my feeling concerning democratic party’s “assurances” such as Pelosi ladled out at Netroots. (Superfluous to add, I believe the GOP is, in fact, the American Fascist Party, and thus a refuge for domestic enemies).
Pierce writes: “..I don’t want to hear about “safeguards” because I don’t believe in them any more. I don’t want to hear about “transparency” any more because the president lost his privileges on that word when he cited the secret rubber-stamp FISA court as the vehicle for transparency last week. I don’t want to hear about “oversight” because, really, stop kidding us all. And I especially don’t want to hear about how all the administration’s really done is “formalize” programs that were already in place, as though giving the creation of a culture of informers the imprimatur of the presidency makes it better…”
Anya
Front pagers, why aren’t you front paging Texas women standing up for their rights? Watch the live stream here
#Stand with Texas women!
Botsplainer, fka Todd
Make that “uprate”. Balloon Juice is borking.
Cacti
Aside from their deep, abiding, personal dislike for the President, the nutroots/emo progs and teabaggers all share another similarity…
All are as white as the peaks of the Alps.
jamick6000
@Botsplainer, fka Todd:
I love it. The great bot meltdown of 2013 continues. On twitter, Josh Marshall is freaking out, threatening people and telling them to fuck off. Zandar is speculating that Snowden and Greenwald are gay lovers.
Nothing like a little stress to bring out the best in some people!
Redshirt
I’m voting straight Unicorn Party in 2014 and beyond.
Unicorns are one side that NEVER do it.
Chyron HR
@jamick6000:
Ha ha, Zandar the wrongthinker has clearly lost it. Please provide links so we can mock him properly.
Botsplainer, fka Todd
@Cacti:
Peculiar, isn’t it, that they’ve never given up hope for the Kucinich presidency, even though he’s sold out to Fox.
Oh, and Allen Grayson is up to his old tricks. Apparently, Obama is history’s greatest monster, and Democrats who don’t lick progressive boots are his minions….
Choicelady320
@smintheus: You’d be right IF the NSA is spying on you, but they are not. Bush most certainly did, to far less outrage than this collection of NUMBERS is generating. No one is listening to your conversations or reading your email. The government is just not that into you. AND we now have court and legislative LAWS that protect us far better. The outrage is without foundation.
FlipYrWhig
@JWL: So Pierce wants these things to stop… how?
soonergrunt (nexus 7)
@Anya: because we blog about whatever is of interest to each of us. Anne Laurie or ABL might be all over that. It’s right up their alleys. Or maybe they won’t, for whatever reason. Personally, I try to stick to topics about which I have some knowledge and that haven’t been covered by the others.
Nothing is stopping you from posting a long comment about it, our blogging it on your own site, for that matter.
FlipYrWhig
@pokeyblow:
That’s the only reason you can think of? How about… making an attempt to soothe conservative Democrats leery of being “partisan” and “vindictive” because they want to be able to go back to their districts and talk about how they did only blandly constructive things rather than getting into ideological pissing contests, which is why they deserve to be re-elected? Those kinds of Democrats are tedious and annoying, but, you know, they exist, and in fairly large numbers. And Pelosi hears from them, and stays the leader of the caucus by catering to them to some degree, and gets their votes on things their instincts tell them to avoid by being able to reassure them that they’ll get the care and feeding they need.
JWL
@Cacti: Conservative democrats, who invariably style themselves “realists”, are driven crazy by the existence of the party’s left wing.
So I disagree with you when you characterize progressive disenchantment with administration policies as being motivated by a “deep, personal dislike”. To be sure they fundamentally diagree on many policy matters, but that’s all it is– i.e., it’s political business, and nothing personal.
Conservative democrats are drama queens. After all, do you think it was the votes of conservative democrats that gained him the nomination in 2008? Or comprised an extremely healthy percentage of the votes that comprised his being reelected in 2012?
Just Some Fuckhead
@JWL: I used to like Pierce until he went full metal firebagger.
Omnes Omnibus
@pokeyblow:
Your “in the habit of” statement is a bit odd. How many times has Pelosi done it? As far as defense attorneys go, they should know whether they have a viable case or if the defendant should start making plans for dealing with prison. Do you want your lawyer to lie to you and tell you that you totally are going to be acquitted when he or she knows that it isn’t a possibility?
pokeyblow
@FlipYrWhig: And those democrats needed her to say what she said, and had she said nothing they would have been angry?
I don’t believe that is the case. Do you?
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m not talking about what the lawyer says to the client. Pelosi made a public statement. Assume the lawyer operates that way too.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@pokeyblow:
Because she didn’t want to look like a damned fool? In 2006 the Senate was split between Rs and Ds. Do you actually think that there was a chance in hell that half of the Rs would have voted to convict Bush?
Davis X. Machina
@Just Some Fuckhead: IIRC, Pierce cut his teeth politically working on the Udall campaign in the ’76 primaries*. I loved Mo dearly, but no one ever confused him with Eugene V. Debs. A lot of Pierce’s basic shtick is nostalgia for a progressive Democratic past that never really existed — for every Frank Church there was a John Stennis, for every Bob Drinan, a RIchard Shelby..
(*I worked on that campaign at a very low level prior to the Mass primary….)
JWL
@FlipYrWhig: Just what Pierce might advocate, I haven’t a clue. Obviously the policy won’t be ‘stopped” by the Obama administration– it’s their baby. Nor will the push back come from the GOP.
Only the American people can determine that totalitarian governance that emulates that of the late, unmourned East Germany, is not the way they want to run their democratic shop.
pokeyblow
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: Have you ever thought something but, you know, not announced it publicly?
Please.
Just Some Fuckhead
@soonergrunt (nexus 7):
If that were the case no one would even know who you are.
FlipYrWhig
@JWL:
“Conservative” Democrats? Hardly.
(Of course it depends on the meaning of “conservative”… think of Claire McCaskill, not much of a liberal and a fairly early Obama supporter/surrogate.)
But it wasn’t the “more liberal than Obama but resigned to the lesser of two evils” segment either. The number of people who say that Obama isn’t liberal enough for them is, last I checked, very, very small.
JWL
@Just Some Fuckhead: “Full metal firebagger”?
WTF does that mean?
jamick6000
@Chyron HR: https://twitter.com/ZandarVTS/status/343838370977443840
Omnes Omnibus
@pokeyblow: She represents the public, no?
Bush was not going to be removed from office. That takes a 2/3 vote in the Senate and that simply wasn’t in the cards. By putting the kibosh on impeachment speculation early, she allowed her caucus to work on other things – things which were potentially achievable. You don’t like the call; fine, but it wasn’t an unreasonable call to make.
SiubhanDuinne
@FlipYrWhig:
I was thinking of Cindy Sheehan.
pokeyblow
@JWL: It is silly club-code language from someone desperate to fit in, but not particularly energetic when it comes to putting paltry thoughts into words.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@pokeyblow:
What’s that got to do with it? So she ties up the House for a year or so on what everyone knows is a fool’s errand because why? She shoots her credibility as Speaker, wastes time, and blows the chance to get any other legislation passed because Bush was contemptible. Yeah, that’s leadership all right.
Please.
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus: Would you hire a defense lawyer known for publicly announcing acquittals wouldn’t happen?
FlipYrWhig
@pokeyblow: I don’t know that anyone was asking her to make such a statement, but I wouldn’t be terribly surprised to find that the party’s Heath Shulers and Harold Fords and such had asked her to rule out “partisan witch hunts,” liberal vendettas, or some such thing. They’re skittish. They like to differentiate themselves from Democratic presidents and caricature straw-Democrats. At any rate, it’s a strange thing to be hung up on, considering that what Pelosi ruled out is something that has never happened, so it’s not like her remark is _why_ it didn’t happen.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@JWL: What’s interesting about the “rubberstamping” FISA court is that the judges who serve on it are judges from other federal courts. One of the rubberstamping judges is one who called Obamacare unconstitutional. There’s also a procedure in place for allowing warrants to be modified at the court before they are approved.
I know it’s just me, but I accept that there’s a certain amount of spying and a certain amount of secrecy. I also know that there is a potential for abuse. It would be interesting to see if people could actually have a discussion about what the proper level of secrecy is, but the only way to prevent the abuse is to put the right people in office that won’t abuse it.
Fun fact: One of the things Obama did when it got in office was change the rules on how information is classified. His rules make it harder to just immediately declare something classified at any level. Only the government can make something classified; any information derived from classified government material has to follow a procedure to determine it’s classification.
JWL
@FlipYrWhig:
“But it wasn’t the “more liberal than Obama but resigned to the lesser of two evils” segment either. The number of people who say that Obama isn’t liberal enough for them is, last I checked, very, very small”.
I disagree. At least, I would gauge those numbers as being much larger than you do.
How many people have you ever heard approve of the lack of criminal prosecutions of the Wall Street criminals that looted the planet? But where were those voters going to go? The Peace & Freedom Party? The Green Party?
FlipYrWhig
@pokeyblow: @JWL: Um, it’s a joke. JSF is anticipating that Obama-loving regulars will decide they don’t like Pierce because he’s criticizing Obama, so he’s mimicking the sort of thing he imagines they will say.
pokeyblow
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: Stop it with the straw men. She could have said nothing.
Also, I’d personally like to see something done, justice-wise, about the thousands dead and trillions stolen. Perhaps, in your world, only comical people have that feeling.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@JWL: I believe it means Pierce can now make tote bags without the use of a transmutation circle.
Botsplainer, fka Todd
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
But your progressive betters would get to feel all righteous about it, which is what is important.
Keep your eye on the prize, man – it’s Lieberman/Lamont all over again, and look at all the awesome that was accomplished with that move. Lieberman ass-chapped about progressives until he retired, and being a shit at every opportunity.
pokeyblow
@FlipYrWhig: Actually, I feel bad about writing that, and apologize to Just Some Fuckhead. He(?) seems like a very decent guy, and I was out of line.
I really try not to be harsh toward anyone here who isn’t harsh to me first.
Just some Fuckhead, sorry.
pokeyblow
@FlipYrWhig: So, respectfully, is this a Harold-Ford-rocks blog?
Higgs Boson's Mate
@pokeyblow:
Straw men? You obviously don’t understand the meaning of the term.
Botsplainer, fka Todd
@pokeyblow:
*guffaw*
Yes, there is comedy to that. A naïveté that is so willful that you want shitty things to happen to the deliberately obtuse.
JWL
@pokeyblow: Must be a different Pierce, then, because that doesn’t describe the guy I was referring to. Not by a long shot.
FlipYrWhig
@JWL: There are hundreds of millions of people in the country. Tens of millions vote. Thousands may believe something and still not amount to a very large percentage of the public.
JWL
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): What.., no forget it.
I don’t even want to know WTF that means.
pokeyblow
@Botsplainer, fka Todd: @JWL: Actually, my inappropriate and regretted insult was directed to JSF.
I think Pierce is on-target most of the time.
Omnes Omnibus
@pokeyblow: In your analogy, who is Pelosi’s client? I would say the people of the US, but it could be Democrats. Either way, giving them the facts is not a bad thing. Again, I get that you don’t like it, but that doesn’t make it an unreasonable course of action. If things went the way you wanted, Bush would have been acquitted in the Senate – would we be in a better place today as a result?
FlipYrWhig
@pokeyblow: Harold Ford sucks. But, you know, when you’re a leader of Harold Ford’s party in the House of Representatives, sometimes you end up in the lamentable position of having to listen to Harold Ford’s litany of needs and complaints.
JWL
@FlipYrWhig: We’d be better off discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
FlipYrWhig
@pokeyblow: I’d personally like to see American Indians not be forced to live in squalor for a few hundred years and counting, but I don’t have a lot of illusions that the American political system is going to produce that, either.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@JWL: Sorry, anime reference.
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus: The democrats, whom she purported to lead.
It is speculation to say that nothing would have happened, opinion. Surely you agree, politics aside, that Bush et al. deserved punishment for the Iraq war, it’s toll in lives and wealth.
If you don’t, you and I have nothing to talk about.
gogol's wife
@JWL:
Oh go to hell. East Germany, right. I’d like to see you last two days in East Germany. Make that two minutes.
pokeyblow
@FlipYrWhig: So if Harry Reid, out of the blue, says “we aren’t going to consider any ways in which we can provide better justice to Native Americans,” knowing republicans aren’t interested in doing such things, it wouldn’t bug you?
gogol's wife
@pokeyblow:
You guys are hilarious. You don’t realize that JSF is on your side. He was trolling us Obots.
JWL
@gogol’s wife: WTF does that mean? I mean, what on earth are you talking about?
lol
@pokeyblow:
Which 16 Senate Republicans would’ve voted to remove Bush from office?
Now that would be speculative.
FlipYrWhig
@pokeyblow: Remember when Wisconsin put Scott Walker to a recall election, and a good number of people who didn’t like Walker nonetheless voted against the recall, because they didn’t think it was fair?
Omnes Omnibus
@pokeyblow: Of course it isn’t speculation. Name one Republican senator who might have voted to convict. You can’t get to 67 senators without the Republicans. Bush would not have been convicted.
Yes, I think Bush and his cronies committed impeachable offenses. I also think they committed war crimes. That and $4.50 will get you a latte.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Botsplainer, fka Todd:
Seems like. It’s likely that all Bush, et al, would have had to say was “I carried out my actions in the best interests of protecting the United States of America.” My recollection of the tenor of Congress at the time is fading, but it seems likely that the articles of impeachment wouldn’t have been voted out of the House.
Redshirt
I’m going to hold my breath until I get ALL MY UNICORNS. Starting….
gogol's wife
@JWL:
It means that you have no standing to claim that this country resembles East Germany. You don’t know the first thing about what you claim to be talking about. You have never lived in a place where people are actually tracking exactly what you say and do. If you truly thought this country resembled East Germany, you wouldn’t be blowing your mouth off on the internet.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Redshirt: It’s “ponies”, you fucking amateur.
FlipYrWhig
@pokeyblow: That’s not parallel, though. The parallel would be if Reid said “Giving back confiscated lands is off the table.” And… know what, it is. Pelosi didn’t say “We aren’t going to consider any ways in which we can remedy the excesses of the Bush Administration.”
pokeyblow
@gogol’s wife: Well, I hope he sees my apology. You never told me whether you knew Guido Reni’s Beatrice Cenci. Also, fwiw, my friend the Slavic professor asked me to take photos of Gogol’s apartment building on via Sistina in Rome recently. They have Caffe Gogol on the ground floor.
gogol's wife
@pokeyblow:
I did tell you that I went and looked at the Cenci painting (on the internet, I’ve certainly not seen it in person), and that I agreed that it was beautiful.
Did you take the pictures?
I don’t think JSF is too sensitive, so it’s okay if he doesn’t see your apology.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Good lord.
If I may borrow the late, great Miss Ivins’ advice to Camille Paglia– Find yourself a valium, mix yourself a stiff gin and tonic, go for a long walk… or we can add in yoga, meditation or masturbation, but you gotta relax.
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus: Please stop switching terms around. Impeachment without conviction is still impeachment. No doubt you are right about the inclination of republican senators, but an aggressive public airing of evidence would have impacted public opinion and created pressures. And, unlike Clinton, the impeachment would have damaged the Bush legacy Obama now seems so un-hesitant to celebrate.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@gogol’s wife: And that’s what gets me about all this hyperbole. If we truly were a police state, would Balloon-Juice, Daily Kos, Red State, or any of these blogs exist? What does Daily Kos-China look like? Would Glenn Greenwald be trying to go to a Socialist conference later in the year if he was truly threatened? Would the conference even exist?
pokeyblow
@gogol’s wife: The painting, so they say, inspired Shelley to write his famous play about that tragic family. Incredible story, if you don’t know it.
And of course I took the photos. I’ve learned to avoid angering Russian women in my sphere.
JWL
@gogol’s wife: You don’t understand, you missed the point entirely.
Read the reporting of the McClatchey journalists. Remember them? You should. They were the group reporters who actually did their job in the run-up to the Iraq War in 2002-2003.
If, having read their report (the one I alluded to in my comment), should you then consider my equating the policies implemented by the Obama administration as sinister, then you and I have a very different concept of (the terms) freedom and liberty.
Oh yeah, and also the term “common sense”.
lol
@pokeyblow:
So it’s purely about your fee-fees then. Got it.
gogol's wife
@pokeyblow:
I had to read that play in grad school. Where does your friend teach? (You don’t have to say if you don’t want to, of course.)
Omnes Omnibus
@pokeyblow: Impeachment without conviction would have been pointless. Enough damage was done to the process by the Clinton impeachment that another impeachment that could be spun as political games would have basically taken the process off the table forever.
Gonna have to just flat out disagree with you there.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@pokeyblow:
like it was undamaged on its own. There’s a reason we don’t have president Palin.
And I see you don’t pay any real attention to how the government has worked.
MikeJ
@Just Some Fuckhead: Unicorns are just horny ponies.
gogol's wife
@JWL:
So who has been fired, silenced, dragged off to jail for political reasons since Obama has implemented his Stasi-like reign of terror?
Just Some Fuckhead
@JWL: Are you new here?
pokeyblow
@lol: Yes. I think your mechanisms for understanding are pretty much saturated with that.
Omnes Omnibus
@gogol’s wife: Well, you would know since it all is happening in secret. Gotcha!
pokeyblow
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): Did you hear about the awesome new “library” down at SMU?
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus: You are positively entitled to your opinions. But you do realize they aren’t facts… I hope.
pokeyblow
@gogol’s wife: I won’t say, because her world is a vanishingly small one.
Omnes Omnibus
@pokeyblow: I do base them on facts – when I have time.
gogol's wife
@Omnes Omnibus:
If it’s secret, it can’t be state terror. The whole point is that everyone knows, everyone is afraid, so everyone shuts up, quite efficiently. If they’re still blowing their mouths off, you know it’s still okay.
I realize you were being facetious, but still.
JWL
@gogol’s wife: Again, you miss the point. You obviously haven’t read the reporting of the McClatchey journalists.
Do that, and then get back to me.
ruemara
@pokeyblow: Often, they are about as well informed.
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): I got the ref.
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus:
Impeachment without conviction would have been pointless. [1]
Enough damage was done to the process by the Clinton impeachment that another impeachment that could be spun as political games[2]
would have basically taken the process off the table[3]
forever[4].
I count at least four non-facts. What’s your tally?
Davis X. Machina
@Omnes Omnibus: President Rubio, or President Christie, or President Jeb Bush, would like nothing better than for impeachment to be a standing joke. It removes one more impediment to doing impeachment-worthy stuff.
Think for a second…. Was there ever a chance that Clinton was going to be removed from office? Especially since the Senate vote was held after a mid-term election in which the GOP actually lost seats? The Senate went through the motions, because the motions were the whole point.
Impeachment is now a joke, something fringe lunatics pursue. It’s the Constitutional equivalent of turning off the burglar alarm…. and when the burglars came in 2003-2005, there was no alarm.
gogol's wife
@JWL:
I don’t have to read anybody’s reporting to know that we’re very far from being in East Germany.
JWL
@Just Some Fuckhead: No. Cat dragged me in quite a while ago.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@pokeyblow: I live in the DFW area. It was on all four news channels here the entire day. It was built by the people who paid for the Bush presidency. Celebrated by the masses, it was not, and the only celebration of the Bush presidency was that it was over.
ETA: I especially like the part where you get chastised by Bush for not choosing the course of action on Iraq or New Orleans that he did.
JWL
@gogol’s wife:
Respectfully, read the report of the McClatchey journalists.
As Jimi Hendrex once noted about flashing a peace sign, “it’ll do you no harm”.
gogol's wife
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Oh, but Obama appeared at the dedication! That means he adores Bush and wants to emulate him! He didn’t say, GFY, I’ll be the only president in history who doesn’t show up at the dedication of another president’s library!
Omnes Omnibus
@pokeyblow: Yes, those were opinion statements on my part. Now what?
gogol's wife
@JWL:
What does me harm is people throwing around irresponsible comparisons to societies I know something about, in which people suffered and died and were terrorized.
ETA: It’s Hendrix.
Omnes Omnibus
@Davis X. Machina: Hard to argue against that. The only thing is that with time, impeachment might again become a viable entity – politically, it is on life support.. Impeaching Bush and failing to convict would have been been the same as pulling the plug.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@gogol’s wife: I was wondering what would come first: Someone would seriously point out that Obama attended the ceremony, or someone would snark about it. In BJ style, snark wins.
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus: Just checking.
Now here is what I think is factual: when you are in a dispute/negotiation with another party, and you pre-emptively say you won’t even consider certain avenues for applying pressure on the other party, you weaken your negotiating position.
Does that sound like a fact to you?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@pokeyblow: What was being negotiated?
pokeyblow
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): I believe congress is involved in a series of negotiations.
Do you disagree?
JWL
@gogol’s wife: Again, and again, respectfully, you are missing the point. Read the McClatchey journalists, and you’ll surely understand what it is I’m talking about.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@ruemara: Thanks. I thought it would at least get a “HA!” But we’re a bit too serious right now, I guess.
lol
@pokeyblow:
I think the vast majority of the Netroots thinks negotiation is a game against a computer where you can get the deal you wanted if you just give a crazy first offer and not talks with real live people with real live power over your agenda and will happily scuttle the entire thing if they don’t think you’re acting in good faith.
Omnes Omnibus
@pokeyblow:
If that position is not tenable, I may signal to the other party that I am realistic. I have never been of the school that asks for a $1 million as a settlement when my client’s damages are only $20,000. I wouldn’t be taken seriously and deservedly so. Starting negotiations from a realistic point isn’t weakness.
FlipYrWhig
@pokeyblow: What about when you are in a dispute/negotiation with another party, and there’s someone else on your side who isn’t sure he wants to be a part of this whole thing and thinks you might be a loose cannon? Is it appropriate to say outright that there are certain things he doesn’t have to worry about? It weakens _your_ personal negotiating position with the other side, to a degree, but it also keeps you and your skittish friend on the same side, which keeps alive the whole idea of negotiating instead of letting his cold feet make it impossible.
gogol's wife
@JWL:
Look, there is no point the McClatchey journalists, whoever they might be, could make that would make me ignore the evidence of my own senses and think that the United States now resembles East Germany.
pokeyblow
@lol: But you have a theory of games which proves that aggressive threats are always wrong?
Or that suggests an optimal strategy involves unilaterally promising not to apply certain pressures to the opposing player… in return for nothing?
Tell me how best to negotiate with assholes. If you know the secret, please share.
FlipYrWhig
@lol: Yup. Or, to put it another way, the tactics that get you a good deal on a rug from the guy at the bazaar might not work that well when the guy is more than happy to let you keep your money and just burn all the rugs, because they aren’t even his.
Omnes Omnibus
@JWL: Did you post a link to this report? I looked, but I may have missed it.
Botsplainer, fka Todd
@pokeyblow:
Nope. If you ask for something stupid, you send out a sky-searing bat signal that you have no clue about what you’re doing.
As a family lawyer, my deal has always been about achieving the possible. When somebody pops off with the ridiculous, I quietly say that I’m not negotiating against myself, and invite the opposite number to come up with something real.
Davis X. Machina
@Omnes Omnibus: It would have been righteous, though.
Xantar
Isn’t pokeyblow the guy who showed up here and announced that President Obama has never done anything significant during his term? I’m just saying that there are more productive ways to spend your time than engaging someone that obtuse.
lol
@pokeyblow:
I have experience from observing a Senate full of a prima donnas who will happily kill any deal going through if their egos are massaged.
The Senate is 60 something parallel negotiations between the President and a group of people, each of whom can kill the bill for any reason without consequence *and know it*.
Aggression and threats don’t work when you have no leverage.
FlipYrWhig
@pokeyblow: I know the secret, but it’ll cost you a million dollars. (Hee hee, pokeyblow doesn’t realize it but I’ve just maneuvered him into giving me $500,000! As long as I’m aggressive too…) I mean, a million dollars, you dillweed!
:P
Omnes Omnibus
@Botsplainer, fka Todd:
Basically, this.
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus: There you go again. Where exactly did those dollar figures come from? Can you show that they correctly magnitude-correspond to Pelosi’s options and Bush’s crimes? Further, if killing 100,000+ and stealing/wasting (cough) a few trillion $ isn’t a big deal, I don’t know what is. Your implied minimization of what happened disturbs me.
All that aside, Pelosi didn’t offer $20k. What she offered, from the penalty side, is ZERO, in the form of placing her prestige and authority in the way of even preliminary inquiries being made.
Which seems oddly “fair” to you.
pokeyblow
@lol: one way to have no leverage is to say you won’t use the weapons you possess.
pokeyblow
@Botsplainer, fka Todd: I described a generic example and said nothing about stupid or smart. Please have a bit of discipline.
JWL
@Omnes Omnibus: I feel silly admitting this, but I can’t link worth a damn. I’ve got a Mac, and use Safari, but have never figured the commands necessary to link at the click of a mouse.
Check out Pierce at Esquire.com. He knows how to link. Or Digby at Hullaballoo. She does, too.
pokeyblow
@FlipYrWhig: Well, if you dig dudes like Harold Ford and want them happy above all else, yes.
Omnes Omnibus
@pokeyblow: You are looking at this through a lens of impeachment only. The calculation that she appears to have made is that she could blow up her caucus over the issue and end up failing to convict anyway or she could accept that Bush was not going to be removed from office and concentrate on potentially achievable goals.
I know that you disagree with this calculation, but this horse isn’t going to be any more dead if we continue to beat it.
gogol's wife
@JWL:
Maybe you could summarize for us the searing discovery made by these journalists that makes the United States resemble East Germany. Who has been fired, silenced, or dragged off to jail for political reasons by our present government? Who has been shot for trying to cross into another country from the United States? And given these events, why do you feel safe making anti-government comments on this public forum?
lol
@Omnes Omnibus:
BUT BULLY PULPIT! LEAD HARDER!
gogol's wife
@pokeyblow:
Do you even understand the concept of counting votes?
SiubhanDuinne
@gogol’s wife:
Pasta love us, I read that as “grade school.” And I’m thinking, you know, SiubhanDuinne, maybe, just maybe, you didn’t receive quite as fine an early education as you imagine you did.
gogol's wife
@SiubhanDuinne:
LOL. It was a hard slog, and I couldn’t have done it in grade school. I keep thinking I have to revisit Shelley. I really didn’t get him.
But the Reni painting is truly beautiful.
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus: You are wrong. I am looking at this through the lens of a) Pelosi says nothing, perhaps some newspapers do their job, perhaps some committee starts a tiny ball rolling — which may not roll far, perhaps international pressure mounts, or
b) Pelosi stands athwart history, tosses aside a political lever, minimizes murderous crimes, and says no way to impeachment. In return for NOTHING, except perhaps a happy Harold Ford.
And you think option b) apparently was the right call.
Again, she said five words. She could have said nothing. I contend saying nothing would have been better.
pokeyblow
@gogol’s wife: Yes.
pie
I love Nancy Pelosi.
gogol's wife
@pokeyblow:
Wasn’t it in response to a direct question?
You truly are living in a dream world if you think anyone is planning to impeach George W. Bush.
gogol's wife
@pokeyblow:
Then why do you think it’s about personal affection for Harold Ford, and not about getting his vote when you need it?
SiubhanDuinne
@MikeJ: In case nobody else has mentioned it, this is win.
Omnes Omnibus
@JWL: Thanks. Honestly, taken in conjunction with what are supposed increased whistleblower protections (mentioned in the piece) and changes coming to the classification process, we could end up with a net positive. I know people who lived in Communist Eastern Europe, we aren’t remotely approaching that.
pokeyblow
Because up thread I was told, more or less, that Harold Ford made Pelosi say what she said.
Chyron HR
@pokeyblow:
You have your political calculus. Pelosi had hers. Maybe history will judge her badly, but I don’t think anyone here is entitled to make that call yet.
I’ll grant you, Bush getting impeached in 2007 is a more realistic scenario than the one where Obama had his predecessor arrested immediately upon taking office and thus peace and justice reigned in America forevermore, so at least we’re closer to being on the same page.
P.S. Is “Hurr hurr Harold Ford” going to be the new “Hurr hurr Max Baccus”? Or just the Pelosified equivalent thereof?
Davis X. Machina
@gogol’s wife: WIll, not votes, is what matters. The team that wants it more always wins.
SiubhanDuinne
@gogol’s wife:
Yes. I’ve only ever seen reproductions of it, but it is very beautiful. I can only imagine how stunning it must be to gaze on the original.
I am not a kook
@pokeyblow: Dude, you go on and on and on about how “royally pissed off” you are that Pelosi publically stated she didn’t believe in impeachment. This was how many years ago now? Find a way to let go off that emotional attachment to being pissed off forever, it’s burning holes in your brain.
FlipYrWhig
@pokeyblow: @pokeyblow: Did anyone say “above all else”? Or “made” anyone say anything? Jesus Christ with this. Why did Pelosi say something about there being no impeachment? Gee whiz, maybe it had something to do with keeping her own party together. This really, truly, is not a hard concept to grasp. This is a carefully cultivated performance of obtuseness, right? Please tell me it is. Because if it’s not a show, it’s real, then, I mean, wow.
pokeyblow
@Chyron HR: Not sure yet. But if “hurr hurr Harold Ford” has legs, you can thank FlipYrWhig. I don’t make these things up out of whole cloth.
JWL
@gogol’s wife:
Summarize?
OK, it’s obviously time to get rude.
Up yours.
Read the report, and then mouth off.
Forum Transmitted Disease
East Germany didn’t have an internet. Everything you gave to these people you gave with full legal consent when you decided to use their services.
Watching you assholes bawww about this for a week was fun but it’s getting tiring. Don’t like the world around you? You voted for it to be that way. Not with your ballots, but with your dollars.
pokeyblow
@SiubhanDuinne: if you go to the Barberini palace, look at the Beatrice Cenci, and look at the carved Lion on the wall halfway up the left-side staircase. They say Canova came for weeks, lying on the steps to study it.
pokeyblow
@FlipYrWhig: Now seems like a great time to take “Nancy Pelosi let Bush off the hook for thousands of murders because Harold Ford, per FlipYrWhig” out for a shakedown cruise.
pokeyblow
@I am not a kook: Good point. I mean, I’m still pissed about what Hitler did, and Bush didn’t even kill a million. So I should just chill that the leaders of my party have his back about all that.
Pinkamena Panic
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): But who has ever called Pierce “Shrimp”?
Cassidy
@Forum Transmitted Disease: Nah, dude. You can’t tell them it’s their own fault and that they gave up privacy when they decided 30 seconds of jerking off to porn was more important. That doesn’t fit the purity pony narrative.
AHH onna Droid
@c u n d gulag: Marcio Rubio is a pup. Nancy Smash! is the real deal, head of her caucus, prime minister in absentia.
I am not a kook
@pokeyblow: So are you also trolling German sites telling them how pissed you are at Hitler, and demanding that they cater to your emotional needs on the matter?
Apart from screaming about the pain Pelosi caused you years ago, what constructive things are you doing to make sure that next time the outcome will be different?
FlipYrWhig
@pokeyblow: Sounds like a productive use of everyone’s time.
Cassidy
@I am not a kook: That requires actual work. People like Jamick, Pokey, Just Some Chickenshit, PedoTimmeh, etc. just want things handed to them.
pokeyblow
@I am not a kook:
Yeah, and people on the German sites tell me Truman et al. were wrong to not stop the Nuremberg trials because it made Lindbergh uncomfortable.
Anya
@soonergrunt (nexus 7): In case it was not clear, I wasn’t being a scold, I was requesting. Also, too, I don’t have a blog. I’ll consider the long comment.
Kay
@pokeyblow:
That isn’t how she operates, though. She doesn’t bluff. When she announces she has the votes, she has the votes.
Harry Reid actually uses the “idle threat” theory of negotiation. Might not be all its cracked up to be. Maybe it’s all in the execution?
pokeyblow
@Cassidy: Beatstick, it would be more impressive if you confronted me directly.
What a sad life, grasping for crumbs of attention from shut-in blog commenters who are (a bit) smarter than you.
FlipYrWhig
@I am not a kook: I don’t know about pokeyblow, but I’m still outraged that congressional Democrats in the Eisenhower years didn’t prosecute the Truman Administration for the decision to drop the bomb on Hiroshima. For shame, all you genocide-worshiping war criminal abettors, for shame.
MikeJ
@Anya: Long comments often get front paged, especially if they’re good explanations of things that most of us don’t know about and a random front pager thinks we would find of interest. So please do.
pokeyblow
@Kay: It’s not even about bluffing. She ran out in front of everything to say it would not happen.
I haven’t once said “I’m mad because Pelosi didn’t impeach Bush.”
I AM mad that Bush goes unpunished, but I’m mad at Pelosi for running his interference. Those are not identical happenings.
FlipYrWhig
@pokeyblow: Charles Lindbergh was a Congressman from Truman’s own party?
pokeyblow
@FlipYrWhig: For the people around then, that was a call to make. And I’m sure you’d know the name of the then-current Harold Ford, the protection of whose feelings overrode even consideration of the question.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
Apparently pokey here wants the statisfaction of “but he WAS impeached!” that the Freepers got with Clinton. It means absolutely nothing, especially in light of the fact that the fascist slime couldn’t muster a simple majority on any count, let alone even approach the supermajority needed for removal from office.
I guess that’s the sort of “moral victory” that he’s looking for. In the meantime, the adults have legislative work to do.
pokeyblow
@Villago Delenda Est: I assume you can read. Do you understand my comment #215?
I try hard to be clear. I can’t demand that you take what I write at face value, but I can kindly request that you do so.
I am not a kook
@pokeyblow: ERR_SNARK_OVERFLOW: core dumped.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say with the Lindberg thing. Use your words.
Omnes Omnibus
@I am not a kook: Obama disappointed him, Pelosi disappointed him, and the people of the United States disappointed him. And the horse is still dead.
pokeyblow
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes. Obama, Pelosi, and certainly the American people have disappointed me. Still, I am glad Obama won the election, and hope a democrat, likely Pelosi, keeps her district. Regarding the American people, I’d like them to thrive, be healthy, perhaps not have so much war-crime stink to them.
So I read political news and political blogs, and use this blog to bitch sometimes that our country doesn’t punish mass murderers, doesn’t punish thievery of unimaginable magnitude, won’t consider an approach to healthcare which doesn’t prop up Blue Cross stock, and so on.
So sorry if you think the horse is dead and all that matters is poor Raven’s latest overflowing outhouse or a clever new nickname for Glenn Greenwald. But, surely, you can carry that work on despite me, right?
After all, the game-changing PIE weapon exists!
Redshirt
Jeepers Christie! What the heck’s going on here today? First the troll, and now Pokeyblow’s delicate fee-fees. What’s up above? I assume it’s going to be a JSF – Cornerstone snarkfest. Let’s tune in a find out.
Chris
@pokeyblow:
Given the ages-old effectiveness of the “let the security state do what it wants, or the terrorists/communists/Nazis/barbarian hordes will win!” strategy and the fact that the public rarely, if ever gives a shit about civil liberties, I honestly don’t know if the security state will ever be reined in. The last time we meaningfully tried was in the seventies with the Church Committee. Nowadays, if anyone remembers them at all, it’s with horror as “that time liberals almost destroyed the intelligence community, and it must never happen again!”
Omnes Omnibus
@pokeyblow:
Look, mate, I carried on a discussion of this with you for a long time. It reached a point where we were simply reiterating previous statements in slightly different wording. At that point, the horse (the discussion) is dead.
And I don’t pie people.
Liberty60
@Chris:
Exactly- For those of us who are alarmed at civil liberties, our beef isn’t with Obama- its with the American people who have, for 35 years, reflexively voted “Tough on Crime/ Strong on Defense” no matter what party.
Which is why I think we should raise a stink over the NSA exposes- its our best shot to get Americans angry over being spied upon.
Worrying about it hurting the Obama Admin is foolish- he has won his last election. What are the Republicans going to batter the liberals with in 2016? Are they going to outflank us by being the party of Reining In The Security State?
They could, if we miss our chance to own what could be a very popular issue.
Anne Laurie
@Liberty60:
Fck, I’m tempted to front-page this.
Except a couple regulars would probably stroke out, and it’s too late in the weekend.
Origuy
@JWL: Is this the report you are referring to?
You don’t see a difference between employees in national security positions reporting on co-workers who may be leaking top secret information and German civilians reporting on their neighbors who grumble about the government?
Chris
@Liberty60:
But that’s just it. It’s not. The only reason it’s “a very popular issue” is because there’s a Democrat in the White House. It means that a ton of people from the other side of the aisle – the survivalists, the gun nuts, the Paultards, the Aryan Nations – are now finding themselves on the same side as the civil libertarians of the left. Remove the Democratic president from the equation, and the issue has no appeal to anyone except those that polite society views as DFHs.
What we have now is basically the same as the post-Waco, post-Ruby Ridge paranoia of the nineties – after 2000, that whole sentiment just evaporated (only to return with a vengeance in 2008, before they even had a focal point like this). Can we harness that into actually working in depth to reform the security state? I doubt it. We already saw with Rand Paul’s filibuster just how shallow their “concern” is even now.
JWL
@Origuy: I referred to the reports of the McClatchey journalists.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Origuy: Charlie Pierce, who had either too much coffee or not enough fiber, compared the admin’s behavior as described in that article to the East German-Stasi regime, and JWL got all excited about how radical it would be to parrot that particular bit of histrionics. I’m a huge Pierce fan, but sometimes he goes a bit overboard. I don’t like the NSA sweep, my layman’s reaction to the FISA court’s approval rating is that it’s too quick to approve warrants, and with very few exceptions (Udall and Wyden, maybe a few reps I’m overlooking), the congress has been utterly abysmal in its reaction to the revelations, but while I agree we should support those few who want to force the system of checks and balances to actually work, I have to agree with @Chris: , most people don’t give a fuck, and the majority of those who do just want a club to beat on Obama with (Rand Paul et al).
smintheus
@Choicelady320: Pen registers have always required a warrant specifying cause. You’re talking nonsense. They’re collecting universal pen registers without cause.
Origuy
@JWL: I linked to a report by McClatchy journalists. If that’s not the one, and you are unable to provide a link, how about a title we can search on, or an author’s name? You know, a reference?
LAC
@Villago Delenda Est: you know that the words “political reality” are like kryptonite to the pouty boobs like pokeyblow.
pattonbt
@smintheus: How is it in contravention of the 4th amendment? Oh, you mean “I don’t like it so it’s wrong”. Gotcha.
A Humble Lurker
@Anne Laurie:
Where have you been on this between (at least) 2006 to now? Why so much outrage now when it’s about stuff you already knew was going down?
This is what I don’t get.
Omnes Omnibus
@Liberty60:
No. No, they are not.
Patricia Kayden
@Villago Delenda Est: Wow. I don’t even need to read the article. The title says it all. Is he even a Democrat?
smintheus
@pattonbt: Here, let’s help you out:
The warrants issued don’t adhere to those requirements, now do they? Nor do they follow federal law or jurisprudence on pen registers, so they cannot be deemed ‘reasonable’ searches.
See how easy it is to figure that out?
pattonbt
I re-read it before posting my reply and it doesnt support what you are saying. Warrants are obtained. They are obtained according to the current existing laws in place – hence legal. You just don’t like how its done, the guise used and the breadth of the use. How easy is that? They have proven, within the law of the land that exists, that they have received warrants and operated within the law.
Seriously, how does it contravene besides “I dont like it”. It’s law, thats not an opinion, that is a fact.
Now if and when Snowden releases documents showing unlawful (not distatsteful) practices, I will join with you 100%. I havent seen that yet though.
Now when, hopefully, the SC gets this (though I’m doubtful they ever will) I hope they strike it down with a vengence somehow, but I’m not going to hold my breath until then.
pattonbt
@smintheus: Crap, I suck at commenting, forgot to hit reply to your reply on my reply so it shows up as a stand alone comment. Please see my comment at 241 for my rebuttal. Or not.
Sondra
I was lucky enough to be invited to a house party where Nancy Pelosi spoke and she talked to us just exactly as she spoke at the NN and the way she speaks on the teevee. She is smart, charming, knows what she’s talking about and totally great as a speaker.
She is most like Bill Clinton who can speak about anything without notes and totally off the cuff and thoroughly knows her subjects.