I tried to post an open thread earlier with this song, but I was on my iPhone, and it wouldn’t let me grab the embed code. WTF?
Since it’s an open thread, here’s a conversational hare for the baying hounds: Have tea party and libertarian pukes completely ruined the word “liberty” for you?
It’s a good word, and I hate to let them have it. But lately, for me, at least, it’s morphing into an asshole shibboleth due to sheer repetition by assholes. This makes me sad.
schrodinger's cat
Actually it was Liberty University that did it for me. Monday Kitteh with a tude.
Xecky Gilchrist
I’m still OK with “liberty”, but I gag when I hear “freedom.”
(The last straw was “freedom fries.”)
Just Some Fuckhead
Liberty is just another word for no one left to spy on.
Frankensteinbeck
No, it’s ‘reform’ that they’ve ruined for me.
Dolly Llama
Liberty. Patriotism. Freedom. Capitalism. Market. There are a number of words those people have fucked up for good for me. But you know, if I live long enough I’ll see them come back around and be good again. Kind of like “liberal.” And I think even sooner than that, I’ll see “conservative” loop around and become the same kind of bad word “liberal” was not too long ago.
Punchy
KS Rep “proposed” a 2 sentence Consty Amendy banning SSM. 2 sentences. Yeah, they’re just mailing it in at this point.
Kinda surprised he didnt add a 3rd sentence, purely unrelated, banning beer sales on Sunday and mandating dildos and wetsuits.
Just Some Fuckhead
We spent the weekend touring the Disneyland of Democracy and halfway through our guided tour of the Capitol building, it occurred to me that their main attraction is broken down.
Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)
I am in the midst of a heartbreak. I wish I could have normal relationships. :(
rikyrah
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/us/dolan-sought-vatican-permission-to-shield-assets.html?hp&_r=0
MonkeyBoy
“liberty”, “patriotism”, “freedom”, “family”, “children” when co opted by organizations are often a signal to keep an eye on your wallet.
demz taters
Nothing says “liberty” like economic insecurity.
Xecky Gilchrist
@rikyrah: Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan, requested permission from the Vatican to move nearly $57 million into a cemetery trust fund
Keep your fingers crossed. That’s the kind of thing that got Ted Crilly sent to Craggy Island.
danielx
Not completely. But after “Operation Enduring Freedom” and “Operation Iraqi Freedom” (aka George and Dick’s Excellent Adventures) I’m not that big on freedom either, at least when used by propagandists. Especially now that we seem to have transitioned from the land of the free and home of the brave to the land of the surveilled and judicially supervised and home of the terrified. But I’ve always preferred “freedom” to “liberty” in a semantic sense…
Betty Cracker
@Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS): Oh, I’m sorry. Heartbreak sucks.
Baud
We still have “libertine.”
The Tragically Flip
Liberty long since ruined. Now prefer “autonomy” which encompasses not just freedom from restrictions, but positive freedom to achieve things.
Cassidy
Nope. I love it when they use those words. It’s like a fucking canary and I know I’m talking to a moron.
muddy
Since this is open thread, I hope someone here who understands the overturn of DOMA thing better than I do in a particular circumstance. I know a lesbian couple who were married in Canada. They are American and never lived in Canada. They live in Illinois. I offered after the ruling to put on a wedding for them in Vermont (they were coming anyway) if they were into it, so they could qualify for the federal benefits.
She says she can’t get married in Vermont, as Vermont recognizes Canadian marriages, so they are already married and they won’t let you. I said how can being married prevent you from the marriage you are in? I don’t get it.
I thought that if you were in a state that recognizes Canadian same-sex marriage, then that’s fine. She says that’s what the case was about, a Canadian marriage in NY. I agree there. I didn’t think that you can say your Canadian marriage is legal in Vermont, and so thus you can not do anything else in order to get the federal benefit. In that case same-sex marriage would be legal everywhere right now. I am more confused after trying to explain this! Help!
ps. My sister (not one of the couple) was just a huge bitch to me over it, so I am really hoping she is wrong. ;-)
jeffreyw
Mrs J just got a text from a coworker at the shelter, Munchie was adopted today.
lamh35
Ok, it has been awhile since i watched Hitch, but man I forgot how funny that dance scene is.
Hitch – Dance Lesson”
“See here, this is where you live…”
Don’t ask me why, but I love Kevin James. I actually liked the Zookeeper and his tv show King of Queens, and Paul Blart, Mall Cop was not half bad. DKY, but I find him really cute and have no idea what he’s like in real life, but I’d like to think he’d be a cool guy to date…Ok, that just got weird, right…lol
RaflW
In the early 90s I worked at a store in Austin, TX called Liberty Books. It was a gay and lesbian book store. Long since closed, but your question, dear Ms. Cracker, made me think abou that.
And about how I nowadays look at Libertarians with total disdain. Not only have Teabags distorted the word liberty, but libertarians have made a mockery of the notion of liberty.
Cassidy
@lamh35: I like his movies. I couldn’t get into King of Queens. The wife was such a mean spirited person that I couldn’t enjoy it. I felt the same way about that Ray Romano show.
muddy
@MonkeyBoy: Reminds me of authoritarian countries having People’s and Democratic in their names. How fitting that the Republicans would have this same usage.
fuckwit
Oooh ooh, can I answer?
Liberty without equality is just privilege.
Or as Billy Bragg put it more poetically:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale
Basically “liberty” and “freedom”, when available disproportionately to one class, one race, one gender, one sexual oriantation, one ethnicity, even one country, are privilege, and are not anything to crow about. Only when shared equally amongst all people, can freedom and liberty be morally good.
This is the core of the glibertarian problem: they’re entitled little fucks, and they don’t realize that other people don’t have the same opportunities and liberty they have.
It’s also the problem with America and the West in general. Why did Bin Laden hate us? Shrub said, “they hate us for our freedom”, but he wasn’t that far wrong: if you read Bin Laden’s “Letter to America”, he stated very clearly, he hated us for our ARROGANCE, our privilege, our disengenousness and dishonesty, our entitlement.
Freedom and liberty, without equality, is just privilege and entitlement.
TaMara (BHF)
Nope. I spent my youth hanging out in New England, walking the Liberty Trail, learning about our struggles to become what we are (good and bad). Those idiots are the poo on the bottom of the shoes of the founders.
Also, briefly perusing threads today, it looks like we’ve an influx of new trolls, who are the poo on the bottom of the old trolls’ shoes. That’s pretty low. Nothing worse than an incompetent troll. At least try to entertain us if you’re going to waste our time.
Violet
I’m in a seriously cranky mood. Have been all day. I think I woke up on the wrong side of the bed, but then I went to one of my doctors to pick up something and also try to figure out why no one there would return my phone calls. They ran some tests for me and even though they called with the results (I missed the call, they left a message), I had some questions about it. I’ve left three messages over the course of two weeks and no one has returned the call.
So I go down there, and the woman at the front desk won’t answer even the simplest of questions–does the doctor do a type of testing. If I want to know the answer to that question I have to make an appointment. Because they’re out of network, there goes $125. And if I do actually get someone on the phone and the call goes over five minutes, they charge it like an office visit. If he doesn’t do the testing, I’m going to find someone who does, but why the fuck can’t I find out IF they’ll do the testing without shelling out $125.
I really like the doctor, but the office staff is awful. They used to have a PA working for them that was great. Super efficient, would answer questions, very nice and knowledgeable. She left and it’s been a mess since then.
The whole thing left me in such a foul mood. It’s ridiculous that I can’t even find out if a certain type of test is one the doctor orders or is out of his jurisdiction without shelling out $125.
TaMara (BHF)
@lamh35: Don’t know why, but I just found that entire declaration charming.
Roger Moore
I’m not sure if they’ve spoiled “liberty” yet, but they seem to be doing a better than expected job at rehabilitating “socialism”.
MomSense
@lamh35:
I loved that scene!
RaflW
@muddy:
My guess is that VT won’t issue a marriage license to a couple that VT would already recognize as legally married, which they would, since Canadian marriages are recognized in VT.
My parents married in Switzerland. No need to – or even option to – re-marry in a legal sense, in the US later. Same for your friends.
Now, wether they can get federal benefits in Illinois may depend on how the feds ultimately decide to administer benefits, especially in states that don’t (yet) have legal same-sex marriage at the state level.
Federal workers nationwide got full worker benefits for spouses, retroactive to the SCOTS decision, announced over the weekend by the Obama admin. All you have to do is be legally same-sex married somewhere, and poof, your spouse is covered if you’re a fed worker now!
Social Security may take a bit more rule-making. Immigration cases are already being processed favorably!
jl
Greetings from my mom’s computer in the Great Central Valley of California. Part of her d-day gift is me trying to be a loving attentive son while trying to get her use the damn thing (&^%!@!).
Well, she said she wanted on, and we got her one. She is slowly being weened of the TV (we hope).
As for the convo starter of the day, we speak English, dammit, and we make up the rules as we go. So it is up to each one of us to resist any group co-opting a word.
I guess a social conservative could make the same gripe about ‘gay’. As in, ‘we all had a gay time last night’ Is that a valid gripe?
Though, come to think of it, it is difficult to imagine most social conservatives I see on TV using the word ‘gay’ even in the old sense: things that were gay times were too liable to get out of control. Hell, a woman might get frisky and show a little ankle, or something.
Betty Cracker
@fuckwit: Stealing that response for next time I’m waylaid by my own personal Crazy Uncle Liberty. Thanks!
MomSense
@TaMara (BHF):
Those were my stomping grounds as well. Did you read the book The Peabody Sisters: Three Women Who Ignited American Romanticism? Such a great book especially if you love history.
Spaghetti Lee
Sorta. For me it’s one symptom of how libertarianism is basically a big project to restore the absolute hegemony of a handful of big business CEOs, draped in nice-sounding words and empty promises.
I think it’s kind of interesting from a linguistic perspective how certain words just fall into certain meanings, and get picked up by subgroups. If I hear someone say “our liberty is threatened”, I automatically assume they’re a righty. Liberals seem most likely to swap in ‘society’ although plenty still use ‘freedom’. I don’t think that one’s been so heavily asshole-ified.
ruemara
@Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS): *hug* I’m sorry.
Yes, there are a lot of words that have been ruined for me by these folks.
Edited to reflect that “Progressive” is also on my hairy eyeball list.
muddy
@RaflW: So they can’t get a license in VT because they are married, but they can’t get a license in IL because they can’t be married?
Are there states that allow same-sex marriage that don’t recognize foreign marriages? I’d think not. My head hurts.
scav
Late here, but they’ve totally buggered the 4th of July for me and all fireworks. That really pisses me off, but it’s somehow seared into the R-brain now. If I at least avoid crowds on that night, I can wrestle the gag reflex down to merely sad.
muddy
@jl: My dad (born 1913) used to tell me that I “look very gay today!” He was retired in the south, I said some Baptist might freak out. On the other hand he always called shoes “kicks”, which I liked. Hopefully it doesn’t have another meaning I don’t know.
lamh35
@MomSense: I also LMBAO at the “first kiss” scene too.
Hitch – First Kiss Lesson
lojasmo
That stupid “they’re fighting for your freedom” meme ruined it for me decades ago.
Liberty, also.
Betty Cracker
@jl: I don’t know how old your mom is, but caution is warranted when introducing some elders to the Internet. About 15 years ago, my brother and I set our grandma up with a computer, email, etc. Spam control wasn’t a advanced in those days, and a “hot Asian chicks want to meet you” solicitation slipped through the net. Grandma angrily denounced those sluts via reply mail and got herself on the porn marks email database, whereupon she was deluged with sleazy come-ons. She was spending eight hours a day composing indignant replies before we realized what was happening. Just be careful is all I’m saying…
Spaghetti Lee
@scav:
How so?
One word that doesn’t give me the chills, for the record, is ‘patriotic.’ I think more liberals should throw that around, because it sets up a good contrast with the right’s ‘poor people fuck off and die, rich people are superior’ philosophy. But I get why some liberals don’t-goes against their instincts.
Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.)
Yeah, the fucked it up but good. Truth to tell, though, I was never fond of “liberty” to begin with; I hate using any long word when a shorter one would do as well. People who say “individual” when they mean “person” or say “physician” when they mean “doctor” are turds. “Freedom” works better for me and always has.
And don’t even get me going on “townhome”.
Groucho48
I’m reading Almost a Miracle, a military narrative of the Revolutionary War. One thing that struck me is how the South Carolina of today is exactly like the South Carolina of back then. They never payed even close to the amount levied by the Continental Congress to help fight the war. They refused to have their state militias join the Continental Army or send the militia out of the state. They refused to form companies of black troops, etc., etc. Then, the war moved from the north to the south and, BOY!, did they start screaming for help!
And, the military-industrial complex is actually older than the U.S. Calls to build a navy came from merchants and various businessmen with an eye to make money and to keep their insurance rates down by having the Continental Congress pay for protecting their ships. The CC decided on a very ambitious building plan. To gain acceptance, they decided to split the building amongst 7 different states. (Sound familiar?) The Governor of each state picked a crony to oversee the building of their allotted ships. That crony would pick a crony shipbuilder to do the building. Neither crony had to know anything about building war ships, but, were given substantial fees for their service. The first crony would get about $3300 per completed ship, for, basically, picking a buddy to build it. That was the equivalent of 15 years salary for a skilled artisan.
Some things never change. BTW, these kinds of things weren’t what the main thrust of the book is about, which is a straight-forward retelling of the military history of the war, from the perspective of the various countries involved.
scav
@Spaghetti Lee: Not sure how or why. I can wrestle back the meaning of words, but crowds getting all nationalistic under explody things just ceased to be amusing under W. And it’s not worn off. I used to be quite fond of the bangs and sparkles.
raven
The CNN special on “The N-Word” was surprisingly good.
Jay C
@Xecky Gilchrist:
When Cardinal Dolan starts making statements that those funds were “only resting” in the cemetary account, then we’ll KNOW something hinky is going on……
jl
@Betty Cracker: The (relatively speaking youngins here are collaborating with the elder to prevent that. Google Chrome instead of the vile and almost unusable new Windows 8 / Explorer match. Consulted with an MS techy to avoid Windows Live BS, Got recommended computer endpoint protection software. And Mom is paranoid. Unless somebody hacks Wikipedia, library of congress sound library or international public domain sheet music library psalmody collection, we should be good.
lamh35
OMG!!! I HATE JERRY MCGUIRE!!!! “You complete me….” Blehhh!!!! “You had me at hello.” GaGGGG!
Someone please explain to me WHAT is romantic ’bout it?
You Complete Me
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
I’ve noticed that when an organization has the word “family” in its title, they usually want to outlaw my family.
Jebediah
@Cassidy:
Agreed on both.
? Martin
‘Asshole Shibboleth’ would be a good band name.
@raven: Their Morgan Spurlock show on guns was pretty good too.
Aimai
@MomSense: fantastic book! It was written by a friend of my moms. She has just written a new one on Margaret fuller. Can’t wsit to read it.
Steeplejack
@muddy:
Why can’t they qualify for benefits with their Canadian marriage? Does the U.S. government not (now) recognize that as legal?
Cassidy
@Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.): Individual and person don’t always mean the exact same thing considering context. Same with Physician and Doctor. If I say “go see a doctor” that could be anyone with a doctorate level honorific. If I say
“go see a physician” then I mean a medical doctor.
MomSense
@lamh35:
I had forgotten how sweet and funny that movie is. So cute!
MomSense
@lamh35:
I am so with you about that movie. I always feel like that couple is headed for splittsville about 8 months after the movie ends.
muddy
@Steeplejack: I don’t think they do. Certain states accept it, but not theirs. Canada later made a law about non-Canadians marrying there, because it was a problem when they wanted to break up but their home states wouldn’t do a divorce for no marriage.
I don’t know how this affects those already married there but not legal at home.
ETA: I thought the Supreme Court case had to do with what was allowed between states, not other countries?
MomSense
@Aimai:
Oooh-let’s have a BJ book club and read it together. Margaret Fuller is one of the greats!
Betty Cracker
@lamh35: Those are cheesy lines, but I do like Jerry McGuire. Rod’s wife is funny a hell. And so is the Renee Z character’s sister.
muddy
@lamh35: I prefer a man to be complete already! That little kid from the movie has photos on the internet now as a ripped young man. Freaked me out when I saw it and don’t want to go find a link.
JoyfulA
I’m still mad about “tea party,” and I still have my Howard Dean “The tea is in the harbor” T-shirt.
Joey Giraud
I think it’s best to not let your mind be imprisoned by word associations.
Liberty means what it always has. Libertarians can’t change that, unless you let them.
jl
@JoyfulA: Innocent little me learned what ‘teabagging’ meant, though. I thank the teabaggers for that.
Matt McIrvin
@Steeplejack: I think the potential problem is that the couple live in Illinois, which does not recognize same-sex marriage at all (yet).
The Windsor case was about a marriage that started in Canada, but the couple actually lived in New York. At the time that Edith Windsor’s wife died, New York was not yet issuing same-sex marriage licenses, but the state government did officially recognize out-of-state same-sex marriages, so they were legally married in New York. The question in the case was whether the US ought to recognize a marriage that was recognized by the state where they lived.
I don’t think it’s yet been decided whether federal marriage benefits extend to same-sex marriages that were valid at the place of celebration but are not recognized in the specific jurisdiction where the couple lives. I would hazard a guess that we will start seeing test cases real soon now. The answer may well turn out to be no, but it’s going to be something of a mess either way.
Either way, I very much doubt that a second wedding in Vermont would have any legal effect whatsoever, even if they could do it. I don’t think that, from the perspective of Illinois, a Vermont marriage is any different from a Canadian marriage. I am not a lawyer, though.
Steeplejack
@muddy:
Sounds like your friends need to see an attorney to sort out the situation.
ETA: What the federal government recognizes for purposes of benefits is now potentially different from what individual states recognize with regard to same-sex marriage. As presented, your friends seem to be conflating two different issues. Hence the need for clarification.
Heliopause
Good god, how old are you? Those johnny-come-latelies are several decades behind Jerry Falwell, and several centuries behind the slaveholding assholes who founded the country, in ruining that word.
muddy
@Steeplejack: Yeah, clarification is needed. It seems like they are not one thing nor the other.
JoyfulA
@jl: Well, there’s that. But I drink coffee anyhow.
Matt McIrvin
…Also, Illinois does have civil unions. I am not sure, but I think their out-of-state marriage might be recognized as the equivalent of a civil union. As to the federal implications of that in a post-DOMA world, I have no idea.
I suspect Illinois will be getting same-sex marriage sometime in the next year or two, which ought to render the question moot for them.
rikyrah
Pierce Brosnan’s Daughter Dies of Ovarian Cancer
After a three-year battle with ovarian cancer, Pierce Brosnan’s daughter Charlotte has died, PEOPLE has learned.
“On June 28 at 2 p.m. my darling daughter Charlotte Emily passed on to eternal life, having succumbed to ovarian cancer,” Brosnan, 60, tells PEOPLE exclusively. “She was surrounded by her husband Alex, her children Isabella and Lucas and her brothers Christopher and Sean.”
“Charlotte fought her cancer with grace and humanity, courage and dignity. Our hearts are heavy with the loss of our beautiful dear girl. We pray for her and that the cure for this wretched disease will be close at hand soon,” the actor continues. “We thank everyone for their heartfelt condolences.”
Charlotte, who was 41, passed away in London. She leaves behind husband Alex Smith, their daughter, 14, and son, 8.
Charlotte’s mother, Cassandra Harris, also died of ovarian cancer. She passed away in 1991 at age 50 while married to Pierce, after losing her own mother to the same disease
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20713827,00.html
lamh35
Hmmm, so apparently Greenwald going on Fox News tomorrow morning. Yeah, I’ll make sure to set my alarm…(eyeroll)
https://twitter.com/ericbolling/statuses/351859780861702144
muddy
@Matt McIrvin: I just got really hung up on the idea that they can’t get married because they are married only they’re not. Plus I kind of wanted to put on the party, sniff.
burnspbesq
@jeffreyw:
Outstanding!
burnspbesq
@RaflW:
Questions like these are why Section 2 of DOMA needs to be repealed.
El Caganer
The only liberty is Liberty Valance.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream.
burnspbesq
@Jay C:
There’s a thin line between legitimate asset-protection planning and fraud on creditors. Be a damn shame if Dolan were to lose his balance while walking it.
burnspbesq
@Matt McIrvin:
There’s that little gizmo in Article IV of the Constitution called the Full Faith and Credit Clause, which Section 2 of DOMA purports to override. I’ve always been a little sketchy about how that’s supposed to work, but as I’ve been saying since Wednesday, the simple solution is to repeal Section 2 of DOMA.
muddy
@burnspbesq: I thought they threw out the whole DOMA.
smintheus
I still love the word ‘liberty’, despite the right wing wankers. I also recognize that it derives from a Latin word that was or at least became wankerific during the Roman Republic. It was one of the terms used by the elites to describe their supposed rights to have excessive power and influence, and their grievances anytime those ‘rights’ were in any way infringed. It was one of the leading excuses that Julius Caesar gave for overthrowing the Republic…that his libertas had been trampled upon when his excessive political/military demands (in the late 50s BCE) were not granted.
Citizen_X
Them ripping off the Gadsen Flag pisses me off, because it belongs to all of us. Now, when you see one of those yellow flags, you can pretty safely assume the bearer is a right-wing asshole. Bastards.
But liberty? No. I just remind myself that that’s the most common thing that the Anarchists, Communists, Socialists and Liberals of the Spanish Republic said that they were fighting for during the Spanish Civil War.
AHH onna Droid
@Violet: Fuck, call another day and hope you get something else? Those fuckers know exactly wjat u owe when youre trying to leave, hate when they lie on the ph about not having any little old ideer what things cost. Some of the myst er y meat is bc of insurance codes but theres no excuse not yo quote me cash price!!
Another Halocene Human
Please, folks, give the Obama administration 30 days to issue rules on how federal agencies like IRS will deal with the statewise patchwork.
Also, Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders was happy to help me navigate the whole SSM question several years ago and I’m sure they would assist your friends as well.
burnspbesq
@muddy:
Nope. Windsor was only about Section 3. Alas.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
Since it’s an open thread, here’s a conversational hare for the baying hounds: Have tea party and libertarian pukes completely ruined the word “liberty” for you?
Well, from an international perspective, I’ve adopted the rule-of-thumb that whenever the Americans start using the word “freedom”, someone’s going to get bombed.
texasdem
@rikyrah:
That is way too young. That, plus a really striking family history, make me hope she was tested for BRCA1/BRCA2, so that family members can be tested if she was positive, and take appropriate preventive measures (an Angelina Jolie, if you will).