Whether you think Mr. Snowden is a hero, traitor, self-aggrandizing ass, tool of a self-aggrandizing ass or whatever, it appears we can strike “competent travel agent chooser” from his list of attributes. Or maybe it’s Julian Assange’s fault Snowden has been camped out in the Moscow airport for more than a week. Even if he ultimately ends up in Rivendell, Snowden probably won’t look back fondly on this layover.
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different-church-lady
Not… enough… popcorn… in… the world….
Villago Delenda Est
I think he needs to give Grand Fenwick a ring. They’re always up for a little America-tweaking.
Dexter
So, Snowden gave up a six figure salary, a pretty hot girl friend……to live out the rest of his days in Russia.
That is a bad career move!!
MomSense
O/T anyone have a working link to a livestream of the Texas legislature?
RobertDSC-iPhone 4
Fuck that shitbag traitor.
Mandalay
Because?……
Botsplainer
Had the dumbass bought a sailboat, he’d have just about finished his first week in Quito already.
Cassidy
@Mandalay: ….Assange stuck his nose into the embassy’s actions and, by reported accounts, was dictating to the embassy staff what they were going to do and procceeded to upset a minister or something or other in Ecuador who put everything to a full stop so that Assange would be reminded he was a guest in the embassy, effectively stranding Snowden in a terminal a al Tom Hanks.
Did I miss anything?
? Martin
Holy shit that’s a lot of people in Austin.
Mnemosyne
@Mandalay:
Offering Snowden aid, Wikileaks gets back in the game
Assange can’t claim the credit for helping Snowden flee Hong Kong but dodge the responsibility for the screw-ups at the Moscow airport. Either Assange was instrumental in the travel plans that got fucked up, or he didn’t do much at all and can’t claim any credit for Snowden’s escape. Pick one.
? Martin
@Cassidy: Nope, that’s how I understand it. And with Snowden now without a passport, he’s effectively a person without a state.
Worst break up plan ever.
srv
Glenn tweeted that it’s over, it’s all in the hands of the MSM editors.
rikyrah
Nothing says freedom like going to a country headed by the a former bigwig of the KGB.
Gex
@Dexter: But at least he is out from under the oppressive hand of the United States federal government. That is the only thing that matters. That and I’m not sure if he will have to pay income taxes anytime soon. These two things are the very definition of freedom to a libertarian.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
Maybe he could ask Tom Hanks how to live in an airport.
srv
You sheeple just don’t realize how smart the Snowman is. Galt’s Gulch isn’t in Colorado, it’s Moscow!
He is just the beginning of a mass producer-class Libertarian exodus to the Motherland.
Emerald
@Gex: Indeed. All of that.
And
He’s now in the land of true free speech! Just ask Pussy Riot.
MikeJ
Anyone who has ever flown SouthWest knows all about sitting in the airport waiting for weeks is like.
Dave
This isn’t surprising at all. If I was someone who worked at the NSA on some of their most secret programs and had to flee the country, Russia would be near the bottom of places I’d go through. You don’t think they were salivating to get a crack at Snowden on the off-chance they’d learn something really, really valuable?
El Caganer
The more I read about this (and I don’t stay on top of it), the more I get the impression that young Snowden couldn’t find his ass with both hands and a GPS. Whether one thinks he is a hero, a villain, or an alien life form, surely it must be a bit disturbing that somebody this clueless was so deeply involved in national security? How many more like him are out there, and what particular form will their cluelessness take?
Churchlady320
@different-church-lady: Hi my alternate churchlady person! Glad to read you. I totally agree with you! If this were a movie, everyone would walk out saying it was too stupid to watch.
Not even Milk Duds will save this incredibly bizarre story!
Mnemosyne
@MikeJ:
You can’t scare me, I used to fly America West.
geg6
This guy is the very definition of stupid. Jeebus. Stuck in Russia for the rest of your life. A true bastion of FREEDUMB!11!
Churchlady320
@Mandalay: Because Assange reportedly (his OWN words) is giving advice to Snowden.
Message from Snowden to Assange today? Don’t help!
geg6
@Mnemosyne:
Huh, I see your America West and raise you US Air.
ruemara
call me cynical, but I still don’t believe someone who’s whole purpose is to uncover the National Security Corporate State, would promptly run off to people with worse track records than America’s on personal freedom, freedom of the press and freedom of movement. I also don’t believe you’d take 4 laptops and thumbnail drives and just randomly toss them to people we have, shall we say an unsettled peace, with. And asylum in Russia, for cripe’s sake? Does he think he’s rich? It’s an oligarchical wet dream. Sorry, but this does not feel quite like it’s living up to crusade I was told he was on.
gelfling545
Is there some reason he could not have gone to Ecuador, Or to some other place that he actually wanted to be in that does not extradite and then made his announcements? ? Or does that mess up the process?
Elie
@different-church-lady:
I..totally..agree…. WOW — never thought this would become so entertaining! I bet those sink showers are getting real real old by now… I could see getting tired of that, but trading off to live in Russia? And what is that going to look like? Will he be put up in some fancy Moscow apartment? (nope) —
I am sure this never factored in his plans. And I agree with Mnemosyne, about Assange. What a bunch!!
The prophet Nostradumbass
@geg6: US Air own America West now, for a double dose of Suck.
Amir Khalid
In describing Edward Snowden, I’d go with Betty’s options 3 and 4. I’d add that he’s fast running out of people who find him useful enough to keep around, or protect. What information he had was never as new as he’d hoped or as valuable to him, and he’s given it up so he can’t trade it now for anything. And now he no longer has access to new information that he can trade for sanctuary.
rikyrah
Pnthrgrlgail @Mama4Obama1
.@TheReidReport RT @DianneWing2: Texas Capitol has shut off power to outlets preventing media & protesters from recharging equiment #SWTxW
1:09 PM – 1 Jul 2013
john miller @deaconmill
Places that shut down internet access to prevent negative news from getting out: China, Iran, and now Texas.
12:56 PM – 1 Jul 2013
Bob In Portland
Maybe Putin is withholding access to the Orange Julius stand until Snowden gives up everything on Prism.
This is interesting: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-said-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/
I guess everyone read it a week ago. He supported McCain?
Dexter
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
Soon US Air will own American Airlines!!!
? Martin
@geg6: I’ll see your US Air and raise you a PEOPLExpress, which I flew several times.
Roger Moore
@Bob In Portland:
I didn’t realize that Boehner was involved in the business.
El Cid
Snowden’s absurd status in the Moscow airport totally proves to me that I should be totally uninterested in the systematic surveillance my government performs
uponfor us.? Martin
@Bob In Portland:
We already know everything about PRISM. It’s boring. It’s designed to help social media services process subpoenas more efficiently. BFD.
Snowden’s problem is that his big blockbuster was something he didn’t actually understand, nor did the journalists he went to understand. He probably has a lot more damaging information but is wasn’t nearly so sexy, and now his credibility is shot.
Teddy's Person
Snowden strikes me as a product of the current myopic, right-wing worldview. Because I think/believe it, everyone must think/believe it (think the Rmoney and Lyin Ryan campaign). IMHO, Snowden’s noticeable lack of planning stems from overestimating the support he would receive from “fellow travelers” (or maybe a better description would be “libertarian when it suits my political ambition” types) and overestimating the impact of the leaked information on public opinion. This is all horribly unfortunate since the 4th Amendment is an important one.
Mandalay
@Cassidy:
Your version of what happened differs from what is being reported by the WSJ….
Of course that won’t prevent the blame-Assange-for-everything crowd for framing things so that it conforms to their agenda, conveniently keeping the consul out of the story altogether.
Socoolsofresh
Ah, some good old Snowden bashing, which is quickly becoming a tradition on Balloon Juice.
White Trash Liberal
“I have always depended on the kindness of strangers”
kindness
While Snowden might not like Russia all that much it is no doubt better than Levenworth.
Just sayin’ the obvious.
Socoolsofresh
@? Martin: Ya, PRISM, soo boring! Meanwhile Europe is not finding any of these leaks so boring. But hey, I guess you know better.
bill d
Rule #1
– Never take travel advice from a guy who hasn’t been outside in over a year.
max
it appears we can strike “competent travel agent chooser” from his list of attributes.
Yes. He should’ve opted to go to Venezuela in the first place. However, one notes that Ecuador is bending under pressure here, so it’s entirely possibly either Ecuador or Venezuela would’ve flipped him much earlier. He did actually get out of HK. As for the documents, it’s all already dumped – the Russians either have it, or will have it, China has it or will, and everyone else has it or will have it so it’s actually mostly irrelevant.
The entire story is down to who will either grant him asylum or flip him for valuable considerations.
max
[‘Powerful people don’t like being embarrassed.’]
dmbeaster
@El Caganer: Agree. Nothing like outsourcing national security to defense contractors who then hire immature dweebs to man the ship.
different-church-lady
@Socoolsofresh: One cannot help but wonder how this would all be playing out if Mr. Snowden had kept a low profile instead of taking a path of very public statements.
El Cid
@Socoolsofresh: Fuck ’em — serves ’em right for living in Europe!
Mandalay
@El Caganer:
Yes, let’s ignore the information that Snowden released, and instead continue to dwell on uninformed opinions about Snowden’s character.
Socoolsofresh
Benjamin Franklin, Libertarian Paultard:
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
El Cid
@Mandalay: I demand that any information disclosed to me about what my government is doing in my name be done only by people fitting my exacting standards in their biography, their motivation, their comportment, and their personal relationships.
bill d
It’s not all Assange’s fauly. Not all countries will let a person traveling with a pet phoenix in.
El Cid
@Socoolsofresh: Ben Franklin would have totally backed beam-splitting & storage, ’cause he studied electricity.
different-church-lady
@Mandalay: You’re right: we really ought to be spending a lot more time on uninformed opinions about the information he released.
Mandalay
@El Cid:
You win the thread.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Socoolsofresh: Yep, as Europe’s spies over here laugh their asses off at the US being “called” out for spying. Foreign relations, how do they work?
Violet
Since apparently we can’t have a thread for the rally in Texas, I’ll post this here:
So the forced birthers were able to get 100 people to show up. Good job! Wonder if that’s including the Tea Party people who were supposed to show.
SiubhanDuinne
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
And 30+ years ago, we were saying that “USAIR” stands for “Unfortunately Still Allegheny In Reality.”
Origuy
There’s a wing of the Sheremetyevo Novotel that is designated for travelers in transit who don’t have a Russian visa. The speculation is that Snowden is there, but the question is who is paying for it?
An AP reporter stayed there and couldn’t contact him, but found out what it is like.
Betty Cracker
@Violet:
We may give the impression of being ladies and gents of leisure, but most of us have paying jobs. That said, if no one else posts about the TX rallies, I’ll put up something soon (don’t want to be a blog-hog in addition to a laggard on breaking news…).
TooManyJens
@bill d:
WIN.
Mnemosyne
@geg6:
Although US Air’s creaky airplanes made flying them more than a little nerve-wracking, I still say that America West’s inability to pick a gate and stay with it wins them the title. Nothing like getting to run through Sky Harbor Airport with 20 minutes to go before flight time because America West decided at the last minute to leave from Concourse A instead of Concourse B.
LAC
@Socoolsofresh: let me guess, you are Snowden’s travel agent, right?
Higgs Boson's Mate
@dmbeaster:
“Well, I see you’re breathing. That’s a great start. Welcome aboard Booz Allen Hamilton. Let’s see, you look like a Network Engineer so I’ll just enter that. We didn’t get any Network Engineers this week so the push is on. Gotta’ keep America safe, ya’ know. Your starting salary is only $100K per year, but don’t worry, in six months you’ll be making some real money.”
Violet
@Betty Cracker: Thanks, Betty. The rally has been scheduled since last week, so I’d hoped someone had readied a post. It’s kind of a big deal that progressives and Democrats are rallying in large numbers in Texas to support women.
Mandalay
@Socoolsofresh:
Exactly. The feigned boredom (from someone who has ,posted more on Snowden that anyone else at BJ) over what Snowden has revealed reminds me of the right’s behavior when they were getting skewered after Colin Powell’s UN speech and Valerie Plame’s outing. It was all soooo BORING for them as well. “Who cares?” was their weary riposte back then, and that is how it’s shaping with Snowden as well.
ChrisNYC
@Mandalay: Oh please. You’re missing the initial story which was leaked to Univision, i.e. gringos go home! Concerns that Assange was usurping the powers of the Ecuadorian government.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323419604578571601908964678.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet
Betty Cracker
@Violet:
It’s probably perfectly obvious from my output, but I do not plan ahead. Can’t speak for my colleagues, who may have their shit more together.
Mnemosyne
@El Cid:
It turns out that Snowden’s blockbuster claim of massive, warrantless spying on all Americans didn’t pan out. The information revealed was actually about the process by which those media companies provide to the government after the government presents a legal warrant to them.
If you want to complain about the warrant process, there’s a lot to complain about, especially with FISA warrants, but the original claim of warrantless spying by the government isn’t actually true.
(Edited for clarity)
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Socoolsofresh: “They that think finding a quote from the 18th century proves that what they know about at situation is correct are idiots.” – Me
There have been very few that have argued that the government requiring Microsoft to leave the Kinect’s microphone on all the time is a good thing (the government spying on it’s people is bad, not matter what country).
The reason we pick on Snowden and Greenwald’s “this is the biggest, most explosive story ever” is that we’ve known about these for years, and what we’ve seen, when looking at the evidence from both sides, is that it’s not nearly as intrusive as they want to make it out to be. Yes, it has the potential for abuse (as Greenwald said, buried deep in his first story about this, there’s a potential for abuse) but the administration that abused it was the last administration; this one has put some constraints on what can be done.
Redshirt
Thanks FSM there are still places in the world that freedom reigns, and heroes are treated like heroes. Yay, Russia! Yay, Putin!
El Caganer
@Mandalay: I’m not judging him, and I’m not thrilled with being under the microscope. My concern is that there are a lot of other clueless types at NSA whose freelancing may not be nearly as high-minded as Mr. Snowden’s and whose ideas of how they’re helping us could easily get everybody into a world of shit. Suppose instead of believing he had to reveal the surveillance state, he thought it was in our interests to get into a hot war in Syria? This stuff can cut in a lot of different directions.
And, no, I don’t want to see him arrested. I’d rather he found asylum somewhere.
Redshirt
@Betty Cracker:
Anne Laurie’s working on a draft. Cole will bigfoot her with a one line post.
Emma
The interesting thing is how the “Snowden Story” shifts every time someone points out that, at best, it’s half-baked. First, he was the “young hero whistleblower who uncovered the crime,” then he was “the young hero leaker who brought this all to our attention,” now it’s “the poor clueless hero who has been betrayed by the people who should have protected him.” Somebody call George Lucas… or maybe not, all things considered.
And to all of you who keep talking about the “totalitarian US”, I only wish you the real thing, the way I experienced it.
Mnemosyne
@Socoolsofresh:
It’s almost like most of what Snowden has is information about foreign spying, not domestic spying, which is why foreign governments are very interested in his information.
But, hey, if you want to get your panties in a twist on behalf of the poor, innocent Russians, Chinese, and Germans, who I’m sure never, ever spy on us in return, you go right ahead.
Cassidy
@Mandalay: It’s possible I’m wrong. That’s just what I’ve read. Although, and I’m sure you could see it, your quoted version of events doesn’t necessarily neutralize my understanding of the events, do they?
Mnemosyne
@Mandalay:
I keep pointing out to you guys that PRISM is not what Snowden claimed. If we’re not allowed to point out that his information is wrong because it’s an attack on his character, and we’re not allowed to comment on his character because we’re not criticizing his revelations (which haven’t held up to scrutiny), what exactly are we allowed to comment on?
Cassidy
@El Cid: Man, if only you had been interested in 2006 when USA Today ran an article on it. Who knows what kind of utopia we’d live in now…who knows….
Ben Cisco
@Emma: JJ Abrams would lens flare the ever-lovin’ shit out of this.
Just sayin’.
ChrisNYC
@gelfling545: He can’t go to Ecuador because he can’t travel and he can’t apply for asylum from Ecuador until he’s on their territory (or an overseas embassy, etc.).
What I don’t understand is, this issue — how to apply for asylum came up with Assange. Assange was able to walk into the Ecuadorian embassy in London and ask for asylum only because he wasn’t yet charged; he was wanted for questioning; that was the Swedish request that he lost in UK courts. Had Snowden set up the leak and then arrived in Ecuador or a consulate prior to being charged and the US pulling his passport, he wouldn’t be stuck now.
Cassidy
@Mnemosyne: Whether or not Obama is history’s greatest monster or the universe’s greatest monster times eleventy buillion.
Redshirt
@Cassidy: Yeah, but in 2006 that didn’t make Obama look bad. Now, however, well, the Unicorn Brigade always needs a fresh rainbow salt lick.
Elie
To Snowden lovers everywhere (you know who you are!)
1. We should ignore Snowden’s character issues because its only what he released that is important.
2. Snowden may have hurt and or embarrassed our country but that is cool because what he released was worth hurting our interests or our allies. I know that personally because I just do.
3. Though he has from the start made himself the center of the story, it is still our fault (those who criticize Snowden), for focusing on his character and inability to find his ass with two hands
4. He (Snowden) should not be considered a traitor, (and Lord Knows CS and a bunch of others who comment here regularly consider him a hero), even though he has been happy (and they as well), to point out that he might have actually damaged this country. Strange patriots who want their country to get hurt or to hurt its allies, but there it is.
5. Spying is BAD. The US should not SPY. Its ok for other countries to spy on us, but the US must never, ever ever spy. BAD BAD US!
5. My personal email and related PRVATE INFORMATION belongs to me alone, except when I send my butt shots to Instagram — NSA should not be able to use my butt shots.
Villago Delenda Est
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Please stop injecting fact into this controversy. It distracts from the notion that a blah is spying on us all, probably to find out if we’ve got any cool stuff to loot.
thalarctos
@geg6: You win. For certain very idiosyncratic values of “win”, that is.
Mandalay
@El Caganer:
That is certainly a legitimate concern. Based (solely) on the information that we know that Snowden has released, he does not appear to have done any lasting harm to America’s security, despite the claims of some high ranking government officials. But I am sure that someone else in Snowden’s shoes with less scruples and less naivety might cause real problems.
Given the huge number of people with access to secret security data, I expect it is only a matter of time before someone else does a “Snowden”, but with far more serious consequences for national security.
Elie
@Mnemosyne:
Give it a rest, kiddo. You went nine rounds with some of these folks yesterday and you might have as well been doing something else with more fun and return on the investment of your time. They don’t care! They want the issue of being stylish leftists or libertarians who just think the US is just so un-chic anymore that anything it does or says it has to do is just a lie.
White Trash Liberal
@Mnemosyne:
You are not allowed any critique because Obot. The only reason you doubt is because you love Dear Leader. Most Dems would have called Snowden a hero if Bush were president. So Obot. Obot Obot Obot. Lalalalalala
Cassidy
@Elie: I vote more butt shots.
Socoolsofresh
@Mnemosyne: Ah, no there is tons of domestic spying going on, if you read any of Greenwalds article last week. (Heaven Forbid!) You do seem hellbent on distorting the facts on this one to make it seem like a nothingburger.
different-church-lady
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Where on earth are you getting that from?
scav
Wonder if the outsourced poorly vetting corporate overlords in charge of nationalmsecurity will care about any financial fallout now that other nations have a new big-stick to wave during negotiations? French President: NSA Snooping Will Threaten Free-Trade Deal. Probably not, they’re Multi-nationals and they’ll find a way to profit.
Socoolsofresh
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): Ya, just saying you guys would be dismissing Benjamin Franklin if he was around these days.
Again, with the I knew about this NSA surveillance before it was cool argument. Oh, I bet the NSA and government were giving the full facts on their spying apparatus the whole time! You totally can trust those guys! Just ignore that the NSA head was caught lying a couple months ago on the public record! I bet that was the only time they have lied! Everything else is completely factual!
Emma
@Ben Cisco: OOOH you are an evil person. I like it!
Socoolsofresh
Metadata, no big deal:
“Three weeks ago, when the news broke about the National Security Agency’s collection of metadata in the United States, I knew exactly what it meant. My records revealed the movements of a single individual; now imagine if you had access to millions of similar data sets. You could easily draw maps, tracing communication and movement. You could see which individuals, families or groups were communicating with one another. You could identify any social group and determine its major actors.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/opinion/sunday/germans-loved-obama-now-we-dont-trust-him.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
White Trash Liberal
@Socoolsofresh: But you are bros with Benny. He’d totes take you with him to the Hellfire Club.
Quote some Orwell too. Please. I really want to know just how awesome you are.
Redshirt
@different-church-lady: The NSA fillings in his head.
Emma
@Socoolsofresh: Yes, actually. That’s what Amazon, Google, and a host of corporations do. Track your movements online and determine all sorts of things about you. Funny enough, they don’t have to get a warrant, even from a “rubberstamp” court.
Let’s face it, sweetie, the only way you’ll be Che Guevara is by moving somewhere and starting your own revolution.
Socoolsofresh
@White Trash Liberal: I guess you are one of those safe at all costs kind of dudes then.
Redshirt
Real talk: Anyone worried about the NSA tracking you should be equally worried about Google tracking you, Microsoft tracking you, your credit card tracking you, your grocery store tracking you. It’s the same difference, except of course the Government has to get a warrant.
different-church-lady
@Socoolsofresh: My god, we’re really completely fucked if they start using that kind of stuff to track terrorists or something…
A Humble Lurker
@Socoolsofresh:
I think it’s pretty safe to say that Snowden is no Ben Franklin.
Mandalay
@Redshirt:
No it isn’t. You have some control over whether you are tracked by Google, Microsoft, a credit card company, or a grocery store. You have no control over whether you are tracked by the government.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Mandalay: Given how many people actually have access to this information, the reason it doesn’t happen more often is that most think it’s their duty to keep this stuff secret.
Socoolsofresh
@Emma: I know, crazy! I guess we should shut up and take it. Meanwhile European countries are taking steps to try and curtail private companies data retention. But I guess that is too revolutionary an idea for you! Those Europeans, who do they think they are?
burnspbesq
@Cassidy:
I think you missed the part about Correa realizing that it’s one thing to tweak Sweden’s nose, and quite another to seriously piss off one of his country’s major trading partners.
Redshirt
@Mandalay: Really? One follows the others, does it not? I could make choices that would ensure the NSA could not track me, because Verizon, Google, etc, are not tracking me.
So what’s your point? Warrants are worse than Google’s EULA?
Emma
@Socoolsofresh: I know. Why don’t you focus on the kind of activism that would bring that sort of change? I mean, commenting on a blog is all well and good but doesn’t get you the chance you want! Write your congressman; make sure your next congressman thinks like you. You know. Political life.
Socoolsofresh
@different-church-lady: Right, again, nothing wrong with tracking terrorists. But data trawling, everyone is a suspect, lets retroactively punish anyone who we deem to, not so sure, but I guess you are one of those if you got nothing to hide people.
ChrisNYC
@Socoolsofresh: This is such a dumb argument, this comparison to the founders. Snowden doesn’t recognize laws other than the ones he likes; he puts himself above laws. He’s said that the problem is that only “policy” constrains the NSA; that is insufficient to him; that is unacceptable to him. Well, Ed, that’s the way the whole shebang is set up — policy and process. Not even clear that he’s a huge fan of the entire nation-state concept, matter of fact. Franklin was a pretty strong supporter of both nations, as a concept, and of laws.
Also, Franklin never said, “We will hang together or …we will go to Hong Kong before the British catch us.”
burnspbesq
@Mnemosyne:
Why am I not surprised to see Garzon, whose crackpot theories of universal jurisdiction when he was an investigating magistrate made the Spanish judicial system an outcast in international legal circles, working for Wikileaks?
Socoolsofresh
@A Humble Lurker: Never was comparing them, but a lot of people are arguing on here for the 100% safety world.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Socoolsofresh: Actually, no, we wouldn’t be dismissing Franklin. And I think Franklin would be pretty annoyed at having his quote used to justify ignorance and the dismissal of evidence. You aren’t going to make very good judgements about the world if you refuse to see all of the data.
I know I have been arguing for a long time that it’s stupid to think that giving up your freedoms will make you safe, or the flipside, that hiding behind a gun means your free.
Emma
@Socoolsofresh: Excuse me? Retroactively punishing people? You mean that because the event happened six months ago and the information just came to light today we can’t punish the guy who did it?
There are serial killers who would love to float that argument.
different-church-lady
@Mandalay: Sooo…. fears about the government abusing the information they gather, check, fears about those nice honest corporations abusing the information they gather, no problem?
Socoolsofresh
@Emma: Haha that’s hilarious. From whats been said by a lot of congressmen lately about the NSA, any letter I would write to them would get my NSA dossier red flagged.
Tumbrel For Hire
@Mandalay: I
Emma
@Socoolsofresh: Links, please.
burnspbesq
@geg6:
I’ll see your USAir and raise you Jet Airways, the Indian domestic carrier.
Socoolsofresh
@ChrisNYC: Again, never compared Snowden to the founders. Just showing how a statement that Benjamin Franklin made would today be dismissed by you guys as being libertarian paultard tripe.
different-church-lady
@Socoolsofresh:
Trying to find a needle in a haystack does not make it a stack of needles.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@burnspbesq:
I’ll see your Jet Airways and raise you a C 130 with no passenger seats.
different-church-lady
I’m willing to bet if old Ben Franklin (the real one, not the troll) were reading this thread right now he’d have about six more aphorisms regarding political gullibility to share with the world.
Or he might just be struck speechless and have to resort to dope slaps.
burnspbesq
Also too, I am actually old enough to have flown on both Piedmont and Mohawk.
Mnemosyne
@Mandalay:
Huh? If you’re not being tracked by Google or Microsoft, the government can’t track you, either. That was Snowden’s entire claim — that the government was (purportedly without a warrant) gathering information from private entities. Where did you think the government was getting their information from?
If you put personal information on a public website, anyone can read that information, including the government. Why do you have a weird conviction that the stuff you post on Facebook has a magical government bubble of privacy around it when everyone else can read it?
burnspbesq
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
The floor of a C-130 is probably a lot more comfortable than a seat on a Jet Airways A319. You had legroom and shoulder room.
different-church-lady
@burnspbesq: Yeah, but you have to hold the tray table in your lap.
Socoolsofresh
@different-church-lady: If you think that massive base the NSA is building in Utah is just for terrorists, well cool. If you also believe that US government is too nice to use that technology to crack down on domestic dissent, well, that’s cool too.
Chris
@? Martin:
Well, it helps that a big chunk of the audience they’re peddling it to also doesn’t understand and has no interest in understanding, other than “OMG we finally have our smoking gun! OBAMA IS WORSE THAN BUSH etc”
Higgs Boson's Mate
@burnspbesq:
And a hell of view too. The load master dropped the ramp after we were airborne because it was so fucking hot.
Socoolsofresh
@Chris: Ya, that’s what it is. Can’t be that the NSA program is a horrible practice. Must be about trying to tarnish Obama.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Socoolsofresh:
Once Bushco went ahead with doing things because some shitbag lawyer issued a memo saying it was okay to do them all bets were off. So, we live in a surveillance state. Congress isn’t going to reign it in and Congress is the only body that could do so. Use throwaway cell phones and messengers. You’ll be fine.
Mnemosyne
@ChrisNYC:
That’s the thing that kind of drives me nuts — yes, it’s true, the only thing standing between us and tyranny is the rules and regulations set up by the government, because THAT’S HOW A MODERN SOCIETY WORKS. If you don’t like the current rules and regulations, then work to change them, but don’t pretend they don’t exist so there are zero protections.
El Caganer
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: Exactly. The number of Congress-critters who have voiced concern over all this is awfully small. What the hell kind of legislative body that supposedly represents the people creates laws that are secrets from its own constituency?
Elie
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
My hubbby is retired uniformed service (Public Health Service) and we have that benefit of first come first serve availability to C 130 that we have done twice. I think its pretty darned cool and we used our sleeping bags and head lamps to read. It was a little cold (remedied by wearing heavier clothes the next time), but was otherwise comfortable — esp sleeping…
Chris
@Socoolsofresh:
Actually, we knew about it because the New York Times broke a story to the effect that the NSA was spying without warrants at the end of 2005 – something the NSA and administration were about as unhappy about as they are now about Snowden.
Mnemosyne
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
Honestly, the only way to rein it in the way people say they want is to prevent private entities from gathering the information. If Verizon gathers your phone records, the government is going to be able to get a warrant to access them if they feel it necessary. The only way to stop it is to say that private companies are not allowed to gather that information in the first place, not to try and set up some kind of artificial wall where Google is allowed to store the information about your searches for the past 6 months but the government isn’t allowed to find that out even with a warrant.
Socoolsofresh
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: I’m not worried about myself. I’m worried about when there is another financial crisis or some sort and the Wall Streeters raid the treasury, and people will be so paranoid about being spied on that they will get away with it even better than they did last time.
different-church-lady
@Socoolsofresh: OK, since you completely missed my first pitch, let’s try this one: by-catch in a shrimp trawl net doesn’t make all fish shrimp.
That doesn’t mean trawl nets are good things, it just means that when someone says something stupid about a trawl net, it’s still a stupid thing to have said.
gene108
@Mandalay:
For me, the ship sailed 10+ years ago when the USA PATRIOT* Acts I & II were passed and in the ensuing time my life and the lives of pretty much everyone else I know were not interrupted because of the increased police powers of the “War on Terror” security state.
I have nothing against rolling back those Acts and other expansions of the security state caused by the “War on Terror”, but the fact so few people feel any real disruption in their lives means it’s going to be a very hard uphill battle to get any real change done with regards to rolling back the security state.
There to me bigger more pressing problems for the Left to expand energy on, such as climate change, raising the minimum wage, keeping abortion accessible, etc.
Snowden didn’t do anything that showed how the government was/is hurting people and making their day-to-day lives more difficult. Me being able to go about my day-to-day affairs, even with the NSA snooping around, isn’t nearly as intrusive an invasion of government using technology to monitor my day-to-day activities as red-light cameras are, for example.
Snowden’s created a big to-do that isn’t coming close to people actually demanding a revolution on the “War on Terror” expansion of the security state, because the expansion just isn’t the most pressing problem of the day for most people.
*As shitty as those Acts are, USA PATRIOT is one of the slickest acronyms evah.
Mnemosyne
@Socoolsofresh:
Wow, I didn’t think you could get even more incoherent, but you managed it! Good job!
Socoolsofresh
@Chris: @different-church-lady: Here’s what your man Obama said in 2005:
“…And if someone wants to know why their own government has decided to go on a fishing expedition through every personal record or private document – through library books they’ve read and phone calls they’ve made – this legislation gives people no rights to appeal the need for such a search in a court of law. No judge will hear their plea, no jury will hear their case. This is just plain wrong.Giving law enforcement the tools they need to investigate suspicious activity is one thing – and it’s the right thing – but doing it without any real oversight seriously jeopardizes the rights of all Americans and the ideals America stands for.”
But I guess he was naive back then. But I guess the rubber stamp FISA court and Dianne Feinstein and her crew is more than enough oversight, so Obama is right.
cat
@different-church-lady:
But the techniques they use to trawl the data has a high enough error rate its calling hay needles and needles hay.
Socoolsofresh
@Mnemosyne: Um, if you don’t think that knowing that you are being spied on will curtail your dissent when things go wrong in your country, then not sure what will. You think someone will want to march on the street and protest if they know this will be most likely added to their personal NSA dossier then you are naive.
Mnemosyne
@Socoolsofresh:
And that’s why we need to let the Republicans win the Senate in 2014, because your man Rand Paul totally has your back on this, right? After all, it’s not like the Republicans set this whole system up in the first place or something, because you would totally remember that.
Socoolsofresh
@Mnemosyne: Nope, your assumption that only libertarians can care about NSA spying is you putting on ideological blinders. All I know is that you tribalists will start making a fuss about it if Republicans come back in power, since now it won’t make your team look bad.
Chris
@Socoolsofresh:
So, just so we’re clear, all we’ve learned out of this mess is that Obama, unlike Bush, actually requires the NSA to get warrants from the court that was specifically set up for that purpose before it can put a wiretap on Americans, same as any police activity (you know, doing away with the “warrantless” part of warrantless wiretapping). And now you’ve decided that that doesn’t count because you don’t like that court either?
“We want oversight!” “Well, now we’ve got it.” “… That doesn’t count!” I’m trying not to be reminded of “Show me the birth certificate!” “Here it is.” “… Show me the LONG FORM birth certificate,” but you’re not making it easy.
Ash Can
@El Caganer:
This. I want to see Booz Allen raked over the fucking coals and the government’s mindless addiction to outsourcing shut the hell down.
gene108
@Socoolsofresh:
The problem with Snowden’s tactics is he makes the only people in the room who’d do anything about scaling back the security state, some liberal Democrats (maybe, though they haven’t done much on closing GITMO), look bad because the Democrat in the White House is made to look bad because of these leaks.
There isn’t a lot of support to bother with the surveillance state because it doesn’t interfere with most people’s lives. It doesn’t interfere with people’s rights to protest their government, as folks in Austin, TX are doing today, for example or folks did in Madison, WI.
So far all the NSA spying hasn’t been a significant encroachment on the civil liberties of most people.
It is in theory a problem with our civil liberties, but in practice it ain’t really crimping anyone’s style.
Mnemosyne
@Socoolsofresh:
So you will work to get Democrats elected to the House and Senate in 2014? Or will you just stand on the sidelines and bitch and moan about the results because you were too fucking lazy to get off your ass and work for the change you claim you want?
No one is going to change the Patriot Act out of the goodness of their hearts because you rilly rilly wished on a star for them to do it. So shut the fuck up and start working to get what you claim you want instead of whining on the internet, you lazy asshole.
Jockey Full of Malbec
@Mandalay:
You will make an excellent serf.
Mandalay
@gene108:
Yes, there is very little chance of the government rolling back anything, but there is reason to be optimisitic that the government will be much more open and clear about what they are doing and why they are doing it, for several reasons…
– I think that some major corporations (Microsoft et al) are mightily pissed off about the position the government has put them in regarding the secrecy surrounding the data being captured, and they may press the government to be more forthcoming about its policies.
– Just maybe, Congress will be shamed into action about providing better oversight of the various security agencies.
– Perhaps some in powerful positions really will have rethought their policy positions as a result result of the Snowden revelations, and concluded that it is good policy to be open and explicit about what electronic data is being captured.
Socoolsofresh
@Mnemosyne: Make all the assumptions you want. Don’t worry about my participation, worry about those who won’t give a shit about either party cause all they see is everyone doing the same shit. They’ll be saying, does it matter who I vote for? They are all spying on me. You think by clapping louder this is going to make Democrats think about tackling the Patriot Act? You think if I do some low level door to door volunteering shit my views on NSA is going to be heard? I’ll tell you what will need to happen to get the Democrats ear, becoming a billionaire so I can donate a million or two. Maybe then they’ll take my point into consideration. Otherwise, I can fuck off to them.
different-church-lady
@Socoolsofresh:
Obama is not “my man”.
But please don’t let that stop you from your ceaseless efforts to sweet-talk that chicken — one of these days she’s gonna sleep with you.
lol
@El Caganer:
I seem to remember that when Snowden’s identity reveal hit, there were reports that agents had already been executing warrants on his place. I wonder if his initial theft got flagged in an unanticipated way and he had to hightail it on the first flight out without putting much thought into where he was ultimately going.
Socoolsofresh
@Socoolsofresh: Also, if some miracle happens and Dems win a 2014 congressional majority and filibuster proof majority in the senate, all the sudden these fucking Blue Dogs are going to come out of the woodwork, and start taking the blame on Democrats inaction on anything.
muddy
@Mandalay:
If you can avoid those things, you can avoid the phone and the internet too.
Elie
@Ash Can:
THIS – YES
agrippa
These laws were passed by Congress. If you have a problem with the Patriot Act, go talk to Congress.
And: electronic communications are insecure.
You want secure communications?
use a one time pad.
drkrick
@Mandalay:
Since the government is using the same data as Google, Microsoft, the credit card company and so on to track you, that doesn’t actually make a lot of sense. If you’re far enough off the grid to avoid the private trackers, you’re pretty much below the government’s radar too.
drkrick
@Chris:
And which the Times was nice enough to hold for months until after the election because we wouldn’t want something like this to affect how people voted, would we?
Mnemosyne
@Socoolsofresh:
“Why should I boycott that bus? It’s not like it’s actually going to do any good.”
You’re right, though — if you don’t do anything to get what you say you want, you won’t get it. And then you can continue to come here and whine about how you sat in front of your computer posting outraged comments and nothing changed.
Mandalay
@muddy:
Nonsense. If I don’t want the grocery store to monitor my purchases I can pay cash or go to another grocery store. But if my house is on fire how do I avoid using the phone? I suppose I could send a letter to the the fire station via USPS, asking them to stop by at their earliest convenience, but that might not work out too well.
You are comparing apples with oranges.
different-church-lady
@Mandalay: Psst: fire station run by government.
daverave
@burnspbesq:
I’ll see your Jet Airways and raise you with Burma Air back in the early ’80s on the Rangoon to Kathmandu route… truly terrifying.
different-church-lady
@Mnemosyne:
It appears that for a lot of people what they want the most is to not get what they want.
drkrick
@Socoolsofresh:
If you don’t think that has been happening for a long time you’re not paying attention. We all saw the guys videotaping the crowd rather than the speakers at the anti-nuke protests at the Pennsylvania State Capitol after Three Mile Island in ’78 – that kind of equipment stood out back then, especially with no TV call letters on the side. And I rather doubt it was the first time.
drkrick
@Mandalay:
If the only thing the NSA has is the metadata from your 911 calls when the house was on fire, the “you have nothing to worry about” argument really does make some sense.
Mnemosyne
@Mandalay:
Use the landline. You do have a landline instead of a cell phone since you’re so concerned about the government surveilling you, right?
The fire department and the USPS are both government agencies, and they know where you live, so that’s out. I guess you just stand out in front of your house and ask to borrow your neighbor’s garden hose since you don’t want the government to be able to track you in any way.
muddy
@Mandalay: Get a burner phone and pay cash for that.
How horrible it is that the government can monitor you when you call the FD! I recommend you get off the internet right now, it’s pretty scary for you.
ETA: different-church-lady, you beat me to it! Fire Dept is government too! Better not call them, probably they only want the excuse to come in and look in your stacks of file folders!
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne:
Yeah, this grates on me too. It’s like saying that the only thing stopping the cops from breaking down your door and arresting you for no reason is rules and regulations. What with their cars and guns and boots OMG IT’S A TURNKEY TYRANNY!
Now, this doesn’t mean that the cops should get to do whatever the hell they feel like, or that they’ve never abused their power to harass people and gotten away with it. It just means it’s not a convincing argument. It’s actually pretty damn hard to prevent rank abuses of power if some malevolent entity decides it’s hell-bent on committing them.
Mnemosyne
@Mandalay:
Wait, calling 911 won’t work, either, because they record your number, trace it to your address, and record your voice as well. If you call and hang up, they automatically send someone to your house to make sure everything’s okay. It’s obviously a violation of your privacy for the government to be able to find your house in case of an emergency, so we’d better make sure they can’t associate your phone number with your address. Sure, it would lead to more people dying in house fires because the fire department wouldn’t be able to find the right street address, but that’s a small price for them to pay for your freedom.
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne: Omigod THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT KNOWS WHERE WE LIVE!
Mandalay
@drkrick:
How do you know that? How do you know exactly which sites are providing data? How do you know the nature and extent of that data? Twenty-six senators certainly don’t, because they wrote to the Director of the NSA last week to find out….
So either you know more than 26 senators, or (more likely) you think you know more than 26 senators.
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne: Well, it all comes down to choice. You can choose to live in a Unabomber shack and acquire necessaries through a barter system! FREEDOM!
Socoolsofresh
@Mnemosyne: Again, don’t worry about my participation. I’m a lot more engaged than the average voter. You should be more concerned about the people who read these NSA stories and say, see, this ain’t for me, the system is corrupt. But since you refuse to acknowledge any Democrat participation or responsibility in this NSA matter, this doesn’t seem like a big problem for you. You already think the stories have been debunked, metadata is no big deal, there is a ton of government oversight. This fantasy land thinking is what will hurt Democrats at the voting booth. It would be better for them to admit that this is a problem, and try to fix it as soon as possible.
Mnemosyne
@Mandalay:
Snowden’s big “revelation” was that private companies are giving information to the federal government. Are you now arguing that Snowden was wrong and there’s an entire separate infrastructure collecting that information separately from the private companies collecting it?
If that’s the case, why did Verizon and other telecom companies need immunity since the government can collect all of that data on their own without needing Verizon or other private entities to give it to them?
FlipYrWhig
@Socoolsofresh:
How many people do you think this is? My guess is that people who think the system is corrupt use the NSA story as reinforcement of their existing views, and that the number of people shocked into an epiphany of systemic corruption by the NSA story is… maybe a smattering of very, very young and idealistic people.
Mnemosyne
@Socoolsofresh:
Yes, I’m sure you’re very proud of yourself as you sit in your boxer shorts on the couch on Election Day sneering at the suckers who actually bother to vote. The only way to be engaged is to refuse to engage! I’m protesting by not doing anything!
Meanwhile, those “average voters” in your neighborhood are voting to put people like Mitch McConnell in office because you couldn’t be bothered to get up off your ass and do anything to oppose them. But, hey, you can tell us all how much cooler it is to do absolutely nothing about the issues you care about!
Mnemosyne
@FlipYrWhig:
It’s Ron Paul voters. Straight white males 18-40. And … that’s about it, as far as voters who will think of this as their top priority.
I seriously doubt that there’s, say, a single left-leaning woman in Texas thinking to herself, “Well, I could go out and vote against the Republicans who want to restrict my right to get an abortion, but the NSA might read the headers of my e-mails, so I’m staying home instead!”
Bill Arnold
@? Martin:
I have fond memories of the very early days of people express. You’d call a number to make a reservation (don’t recall if it was toll free, probably was). The first time I flew with them, at the gate there was a person with a yellow pad (legal). You’d give them your name, and they’d cross it off. After that they had green and white printouts that they would check your name off of. Also once knocked on the door of the plane to be let in (was late to the airport).
Socoolsofresh
@FlipYrWhig: I believe Democrats won due to big turnouts with young voters. But I guess its time to woo them away, so that the battle goes back to how the 2000 election played out.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@different-church-lady:
BROGRESSIVISM
Rule of thumb – Give me everything I want, yet ask of me no sacrifice.
More here. Its a really good read.
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne: Except that the Paul people are already cynical about The System, so there’s no reason why the NSA stories would convert them. Ditto for left-leaning anarchists. Judging by my Facebook feed, the only people who were pissed off by the NSA stories _who weren’t already pissed off about some other Obama betrayal_ were very young. Maybe they were excited about Obama in ’08 and became disillusioned. But people who were older than that didn’t seem to be _newly_ upset in a way they weren’t before. It was just more evidence of rot, imperialism, corporatists, etc.
Socoolsofresh
@Mnemosyne: Again, you assume so much about me since you know so little.
Also, you know so well who is concerned with loss of privacy and it must only be libertarian paultards! Your assumption levels are through the roof! Its weird, though, because a lot of progressive blogs, newsites, and websites seem to be the most upset about these NSA revelations. But ya, keep on thinking its just fringe libertarians who care.
Mnemosyne
@Socoolsofresh:
Yes, I’m sure that young women voters watching events in Texas are going to desert the Democrats over the NSA. Just as I’m sure that young Latino, African-American, and Asian-American voters have no other concerns right now, so they’ll stay home over the NSA allegations.
You know who might stay home? Straight white dudes like yourself who have no other social or economic concerns, so they can afford to freak out over the possibility of the government looking at which internet porn sites they visit. Maybe you can all have a party!
FlipYrWhig
@Socoolsofresh: Well, look, I’m honestly asking. If this is someone’s first taste of the government doing something that seems ominous, that person is going to be _really_ young. And no one on the left wants to lose any votes on the left, so I won’t rule out that this might be a problem. But what is the scale of that problem? My hunch is that it’s small. That said, elections swing on some small numbers, so small doesn’t have to mean insignificant.
Mnemosyne
@Socoolsofresh:
Let me know when you’re equally concerned with the loss of privacy by women in Texas, who are about to have their right to medical treatment taken away. How many comments have you made on that thread in support of them, by the way? I haven’t seen a single one.
I’ll repeat myself from the other day: my privacy concern is that the government is trying to stick a probe in my vagina. Your privacy concern is that the government might be reading the headers of your email. But I do appreciate your condescension in deciding that your concerns about something that might possibly happen at some point in the future outweigh my concerns about something that’s actually happening right now, present day.
ETA: 109 comments on the Texas legislature thread and not a single one by socoolsofresh. I guess it’s only his own privacy that’s a concern, not the privacy of the millions of women who live in Texas right now.
FlipYrWhig
@Socoolsofresh:
True, but not many of them were all lovey-dovey with Obama and/or Democrats before this. Your argument needs _new_ defections from the Obama/Democratic coalitions. People who have been aggravated since Guantanamo didn’t close or Bradley Manning or the telecom immunity bill aren’t new defectors, they already defected long ago.
Socoolsofresh
@Mnemosyne: Right, again, so tell me why all the outrage on progressive sites. Also, you demean minority voters if you think they cannot get upset about being spied on all the time. In fact I bet they are some of the most concerned, because they are more likely to be put in jail due to it. But no, according to you they will have to vote Dems cause no matter what! Not sure why you think minorities are always super loyal to dems, or have to be.
But keep on thinking its some fringe group of people who will only care, cause I already know you have your excuses lined up for why Dems will disappoint in upcoming elections. It certainly wont be due to shortcomings of the Democratic party, its always someone else.
FlipYrWhig
@Socoolsofresh: “Spied on all the time”? Are even Greenwald and Snowden standing behind that charge anymore?
Socoolsofresh
@FlipYrWhig: It might be small, but I don’t think it should be underestimated. Dems have a fragile coalition of voters right now. Young voters played a significant part, but they can be fickle, and something like concerns over their digital privacy is, I bet, all they need for them to tune out. Also, don’t think minorities will be cool with it either since they probably feel slightly persecuted as it already is. Add them together and it can hurt.
Mnemosyne
@Socoolsofresh:
Because, unlike you, they think they can actually pressure Congress to investigate the allegations and demand answers from the NSA. And, hey, look, they have!
But I’m sure your strategy of sitting on your ass saying “both sides do it” would have been equally as effective if they’d just let you try it.
different-church-lady
@FlipYrWhig: I think we may be just one or two pokes away from hearing about fluoride in children’s ice cream.
Socoolsofresh
@FlipYrWhig: One will never know the full extent of the spying program, because it is designed to be secret and those who can will lie to keep it that way. There isn’t definitive proof that they spy all the time, but they certainly have the capabilities to do it. And with how dodgy they continue to be on the issue, it might take a couple Edward Snowdens before anyone knows the full extent.
different-church-lady
Which is kind of the cool thing about it: anyone can say anything they want about it, and it will never get disproved. Urban legends will lie down with facts. It’s like moon landing deniers, except they’ll never have to talk their way out of the photographs. We can call the Utah data center “Area 52”.
Socoolsofresh
@Mnemosyne: Haha I posted about those senators pushing to do something about the NSA, as a direct result of these leaks back when you were arguing that Snowden had been thoroughly debunked. So, now you’ve changed up and I guess now you are saying Snowden did do something good! So are you going to continue bashing him or is the cognitive dissonance, goalpost moving too deeply ingrained into you?
FlipYrWhig
@Socoolsofresh: OK, but, like I said before, there are a lot of things that powerful entities have the _capabilities_ to do that don’t paralyze us with fear. The government has the capability of declaring a national emergency and throwing us all into FEMA concentration camps for our own protection, but most of us don’t dread that actually happening.
And, you know, I’m a bit hesitant to play this card because I’m white and shouldn’t presume, but I don’t think that many black and Latino voters only just now realized that the government and/or law enforcement has broad powers to intrude on their lives. So I would need to see a lot of evidence before being convinced that that story was making much of an impact on those communities.
Emma
@Socoolsofresh: Lord Jesus. You’re fifteen, right?
FlipYrWhig
@Socoolsofresh: I think Mnem’s point is that there are ways to channel those concerns constructively (_through_ the political system), and then there ways to use them as justification for why nothing really matters because the system is rigged. Over the course of the thread, you started to gravitate towards the latter.
different-church-lady
@FlipYrWhig: The USA has nukes, but nobody ever addresses the fact that they could use them to wipe an OWS encampment off the face of the earth.
Oh sure, this administration might not go so far, but what prevents future presidents from doing so?!?
Eric U.
now that the big libertarian outrage is that we are spying on people who are not American citizens and not in the U.S., I’m starting to get a little cranky with this story. That has never been illegal, and will never be illegal. The metadata story is more than a little disturbing, but apparently not illegal. This whole thing turned out to be just another way to attack Obama, and as such is worthy of ridicule
Socoolsofresh
@FlipYrWhig: Difference between this and FEMA camps is that FEMA camps would require a lot of manual labor, would be a lot more noticeable. Being spied on is subtle, and before these leaks a lot of people were in the dark about what they were doing, and still are. FEMA camps you would know cause all the sudden your neighbor would have disappeared.
I don’t think minorities just realized, but this certainly doesn’t help. And since they already have concerns, this actually should have more impact with them.
Mnemosyne
@Socoolsofresh:
See, this is the difference between you and me:
I think the Snowden story is a nothingburger, but I’m all in favor of people pressuring their congresscritters to investigate it, make sure it’s a nothingburger, and pass new regulations if needed.
You think the Snowden story is PROOF that the government is spying on everything we do, but you can’t be arsed to actually do anything about it.
Socoolsofresh
@FlipYrWhig: I am not, but I am concerned that there will be more of those who will become apathetic, especially young voters, which will be damaging for the Democrats.
Also come on now, you guys must assume things are a little corrupt. Why haven’t any bankers been convicted of going to jail? Money talks. The US is capitalism before it is a democracy.
Socoolsofresh
@different-church-lady: Again, spying is subtle, dropping a nuke, less so.
ohsuzanna
Once he went beyond the issues of US spying on it’s own citizens, he lost me completely (I could go on about the finer details of my views, but I’ll spare all of you). When he started blabbering about the US spying on other countries/governments, I started hoping that he was doomed to spend eternity in the Moscow airport.
different-church-lady
@Socoolsofresh: Apparently sarcasm is much more subtle than either.
Socoolsofresh
@Mnemosyne: I believe you will try to think any story that hurts your teams image as a nothingburger, rather than trying to fix the problem, it will be better to sweep it under a rug.
I believe that the surveillance industrial complex, with now 850,000 people with top-secret security clearance, is a gross, bloated system that does more harm than good, and will become like the military industrial complex as a major bloat to the governments budget. I am dismayed that Democrats aren’t doing something to change this before it becomes the new normal. Or it is already the new normal, and this is a result of Democrats sleeping on the job. I understand my limits as an individual and believe there is little room for me to be a participant in this discussion, mainly just as an observer.
So if you think all that needs to happen is for more democrats to be elected, you are quite naive.
Another Bot Splainer
@Mnemosyne: That’s because this dipshit only shows up for a Snowedem thread.
Hey sotepidsostale answer some questions:
Are women in Ohio and Texas less free because of the NSA or because they will be denied basic reproductive medical care?
Are any of us less free because of the NSA or becuase the US has the most billionaires but is only 27th in median income in the industrialized world?
Are any of us less free because of the NSA or because in the US you will probably go bankrupt if you get really sick?
Are non-whites less free because of the NSA or because of 5 goose stepping yahoos on the Supreme Court decided there was no more racism in America.
Some one pointed out you have a really narrow view of what’s wrong in this country, I think its cause you are just plain stupid.
FlipYrWhig
@Socoolsofresh: Of course there is corruption. Of course there are loopholes in laws and ways that unethical and wrong things somehow aren’t illegal. That’s not new or surprising. John Oliver had the right idea: the issue is not that what the NSA did broke the law, but rather that it didn’t. So… let’s find ways to fix the law. Let’s use the system to fix the system.
But that just shows how this story morphed. It went from “look at these terrible intrusive things the government is doing all the time to everyone” to “the government has the capacity to do terrible intrusive things to anyone who ends up on a list that gets vetted by a special court veiled in secrecy and if you’re on that list that would suck.” So… let’s tighten up the procedures that culminate in someone getting on the list. Let’s regulate the government list-makers and the private non-governmental contractors working for them. Let’s make them consistent with the 4th Amd and other aspects of the US law. But let’s not continue to act like we’ve been shown that The Government Is Watching Us All. We weren’t actually shown that.
Mnemosyne
@Socoolsofresh:
And yet I’m the one who’s happy that Congress is investigating, while you just want to whine on the internet. Funny, that.
Funny, there’s a whole party missing from your litany of woe. Let me name some names for you: McConnell? Boehner? Cantor? Mike Rogers? Any of those sound vaguely familiar to you as people who might have some power, or is it all Democrats all the way down?
Oh, and those Democrats “sleeping on the job” are the ones requesting the investigation. The ones sleeping on the job are, not surprisingly, the ones you refuse to name as having any responsibility at all for this mess.
ETA:
Is electing more Democrats the only thing that needs to happen? Of course not. But it is a necessary starting point — without that, nothing at all will happen. But you would prefer that nothing happen, so of course you don’t understand why step #1 needs to precede steps #2-5. Your step #1 is “underwear gnomes magically fix everything I’m whining about.”
Ted & Hellen
@Socoolsofresh:
Pay it no mind. She is completely bonkers.
Socoolsofresh
@FlipYrWhig: As a larger picture, I don’t believe that all will need to happen is the laws need to be fixed, since these leaks have also revealed that spying has now become a business, with private companies vying for contracts and profiting. As with the prison and military complexes, these companies have a vested interest to insure draconian laws are passed as this will create more money for them. So corporations like Booz Allen and such will continue to lobby and corrupt politicians until this is made to be the new normal. I’ve seen the fight against private prisons and less military spending and it doesn’t really show that history is on our side.
Emma
Oh lordy. There goes the thread.
Ted & Hellen
@different-church-lady:
Will you deny him yet twice more, unfaithful one?
Mnemosyne
@Ted & Hellen:
Awww. Timmeh haz a sad because other people won’t recognize the pure evil of his own personal Satan.
Tell us again how Obama is the worst, most corrupt politician in the history of the world because he changed his stance to support gay marriage. That was an all-time classic.
different-church-lady
@Ted & Hellen: Depends — what’s it pay?
different-church-lady
@Emma: Like it was worth saving before that?
Socoolsofresh
@Mnemosyne: Can’t wait to see the next scandal that doesn’t look good on Democrats and see you automatically dismiss and defend it as a nothingburger. Already enough people are saying that Obama is a lame duck president due to this NSA scandal, that Susan Rice had to come out to deny this. But to you, this is no big deal! And whatever senate does or doesn’t do about this, I doubt you will care or keep up on it, cause hopefully people will be on the next topic. Meanwhile its business as usual.
Thlayli
Seems that in every blog I read there’s at least one person — a bunch here on BJ, but always at least one — who started with the premise that every word out of Snowden’s mouth is the absolute gospel truth. They are shocked that anyone could think otherwise. Alternately, they believe the others would agree with them if they weren’t so mesmerized by the Obamessiah.
different-church-lady
THE FURTHER ADVENTURES OF HERO-TRAITOR!
EPISODE 6: Hero-Traitor writes a letter. Or does he?
Ted & Hellen
@Mnemosyne:
I told you, Socoolsofresh, she is absolutely insane.
She’s gone from Snowden to the NSA to her own personal vagina in Texas even though allegedly she lives in CA, thru some fold in the universe, I guess…
FlipYrWhig
@Socoolsofresh:
That “all” is doing a lot of work. What in your view needs to happen?
FlipYrWhig
@Socoolsofresh:
“Enough people” are saying that? Oy vey. I think I’m done here.
Emma
@different-church-lady: There’s that.
Ted & Hellen
Hey Mnemosyne, you live in LA, yes?
And yet you’re concerned that folks will be entering your vagina in Texas?
You should have that looked at.
different-church-lady
@Socoolsofresh:
Yeah, after all this I really doubt he’s gonna run again.
Socoolsofresh
@FlipYrWhig: As I was saying, spying has now become private enterprise, and once that cats out of the bag, it is hard for it to be put back. The law may be reluctantly changed now, but these spying corporations will enthusiastically push back on them.
Also, here is the link to Susan Rice article:
http://www.mediaite.com/online/susan-rice-defends-obama-over-nsa-leaks-accusation-this-has-weakened-him-is-bunk/
Socoolsofresh
@different-church-lady: Right well lame duck also can mean he wont be able to do much in his second term.
different-church-lady
@Socoolsofresh: Yeah, completely scuttles all that progress he was gonna make with Boehner.
Mnemosyne
@Ted & Hellen:
Why do you care about gay marriage across the US? After all, you can get married in Massachusetts, so who cares about the civil rights of couples in other states since it doesn’t directly affect you, amirite?
Socoolsofresh
@different-church-lady: Yeah, except when he tries to get the patriot act renewed. Or the publicly hang Snowden law. Bipartisan consensus!
Socoolsofresh
Also, on a sort of related note, potentially bad optics for Obama tomorrow when he does that joint presentation with Bush in Africa tomorrow. I know he really can’t cancel, but he should cancel.
Ted & Hellen
@Mnemosyne:
Oh Mnemy…I was just mocking your propensity for bringing most threads, somehow, around to the subject of your vagina.
And of course your self righteous assumption that just because Socoolsofresh cares about Obama’s fondness for and vigorous pursuit enforcement of the “security” policies of GWB, he can’t also be a regular voter and also care about a hundred other topics.
Just like you care about your nether regions in CA and in TX…and all points in between, apparently.
Ted & Hellen
@Socoolsofresh:
Of course he could cancel. But he sure as shit won’t.
Wouldn’t be oligarchical of him.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: I remember the good old days of PSA (I think it was Pacific Southwest Airlines). Tickets between SF and LA were like twelve dollars and the first two drinks were free, and let’s face it, how many drinks can you down between SF and LA? Everyone would crawl off the plane half-drunk, ready to finish the job in LALALAND.
Socoolsofresh
@Ted & Hellen: Oh I know, Mnemosyne is the queen of pigeonholing and assumptions.
Mnemosyne
@Ted & Hellen:
You really seem to spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about my vagina, particularly for a purportedly gay man. Why is that?
Socoolsofresh
Also, this isn’t just the government spying on your info, but it is the government and the surveillance spying equivalent of Haliburton, or Corrections Corp of America also having all your info.But ya, no big deal!
Cassidy
@Mnemosyne: It just wants an emotional event. It needs to feel something other than lonely and bitterness.
Jasmine Bleach
Geez. Most of the people here are wiping their backsides with the Constitution (as is the US government). Nice job, people!
I love that more information is being revealed about how our government is acting outside of the Constitution. We need to know this. All of you who are into the entire “secret courts” and “secret laws” are traitors to the Constitution.
You’re either with the Constitution, or you’re with the Democratic/Republican parties. What does this country mean to you as a person? Which side are you on? You cannot be on both sides!
Thumbs up for same-sex marriage! Thumbs up for the right to unionize! Thumbs up for the voting rights act! Thumbs up for public education! Thumbs up for government-sponsored single-payer healthcare to provide everyone a basic right to be healthy, and to stop us from bankrupting this country! Thumbs up for the rights of women to make decisions about their own bodies!
Down with ubiquitous search and seizure of electronic communications and documents as well as phone calls! Down with non-evidentiary “warrants” like those issued by the FISC court allowing the intelligence community to acquire all domestic communications and internet traffic for months at a time! Down with the Patriot Act! Down with the forthcoming Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) trade agreement that subverts domestic law and gives power to corporations! Down with the Keystone pipeline and playing golf with oil and big energy executives!
Down with the Democratic and Republican Parties!!!
Redshirt
Yay, words!
Cassidy
@Jasmine Bleach: Hi 2006. Why don’t you boldly march forward into 2013 with the rest of us.
Jasmine Bleach
@Cassidy:
That doesn’t mean anything to me. Try to actually fashion an argument that’s clear! (Or, maybe you don’t have an argument?)
Or, are you saying we shouldn’t fight our values? Or for our ultimate law of the land (The Constitution)?
Just trying to get a sense of what you actually support. The Bill of Rights? Or corporations?
different-church-lady
Because jesus knows you gotta be on one side of the false dichotomy or the other.
El Cid
Why do a bunch of dumbasses assume that if one doesn’t like surveillance revelations now, they must not have noticed in 2006?
Are people dumb enough to think this is a witty retort?
El Cid
And what story ‘didn’t pan out’? Currently the weirdos who think the weakness of evidence for ‘direct access’ to Google servers etc. apparently think this is more meaningful than the apparent likelihood of an entire beam-splitting & storage operation where the NSA could have all of the content both entering & leaving Googel et al? Why the hell would they need ‘direct access’ to some piss-ant server?
different-church-lady
@El Cid:
Warrants.
Emma
@Jasmine Bleach: Allons enfants de la patrie,
Le jour de gloire est arrivé !
Contre nous de la tyrannie
L’étendard sanglant est levé ! (bis)
Entendez-vous dans les campagnes,
Mugir ces féroces soldats ?
Ils viennent jusque dans nos bras
Égorger nos fils, nos compagnes !
Aux armes, citoyens !
Formez vos bataillons !
Marchons ! Marchons !
Qu’un sang impur
Abreuve nos sillons.
Ted & Hellen
@Mnemosyne:
Because you keep bringing it up!
And I’ve seen my share of vaginas, back in the day….
Jasmine Bleach
@Emma:
Yes, yes. You think you jest. You wish others the totalitarian world that you experienced. Yet, ironically, you belittle people trying to fight to avoid such a state–to use the First Amendment as one instrument in that effort, as is our right. Oh woe, you rant, that we just ineffectually bleat here–on an internet blog!!!–while not doing anything else! (Of course, how the hell do you know what we are doing outside of here–you might notice I’m on this site rarely, compared to folks like yourself. So, hey, maybe I and others are actually up to something in the meaty world!)
Still I note no real arguments from you. Just emotional attack with no facts. Interesting that. At least different-church-lady had an argument–Warrants.
I’m not at all convinced. Evidence continues to mount that the warrants issued are frequently non-evidentiary, long-lasting, and essentially never rejected by the FISC. Warrants should be issued on probable cause. There is zero probable cause when the NSA asks Verizon for all telephony data for the next 3 months for all domestic Americans using their phone network. That’s an abuse, and should be considered criminal activity.
Have no doubt, that is not all they are hoovering up. They don’t need the storage capability of the facility they are building in Utah to store the data just obtained with warrants.
Jasmine Bleach
@Ted & Hellen:
Classy, as always . . . (goes off to vomit . . .)
Mnemosyne
@El Cid:
Do you actually do database work and server work for a living? Because what you’re proposing is much more expensive and much more complicated than you seem to realize. Like, more than the entire current defense budget expensive.
Both the Washington Post and the Guardian amended their original stories to say that Google et al were not providing information wholesale to the government, but only handing it over in response to valid warrants. Are you saying that the WaPo and the Guardian are now lying to you?
Mnemosyne
@Cassidy:
The funniest part is that you’re talking about my lonely vagina while my husband is in the room with me.
pattonbt
@Mandalay: Why not just assume its every company? You assume a private enterprise is working in your best interest? If you believe Google’s “do no evil” BS, I’ve got a bridge to sell you if you are interested. If you think private enterprises you use and have voluntarily given data to arent collecting and cataloguing your data, youre a moran. Private enterprises have been collecting data on their customers since day one. They even monetize that data and record it as assets on their accounts (or at least they used too back in the day) because if they have good clients, someone wants access to those clients for their product, so the original company sells your data. I’ll even be more frank, Im just surprised every company isnt just selling their data on you to the government straight out.
So just asume everything you put out there is tracable and work back from there. And if they are collecting the data, the government can get a warrant to get it if they so choose.
Again, I’m sure the government has you on their double secret probation watch list because of your online penchant for cat videos.
Socoolsofresh
@Mnemosyne: Re: database spending. Again, so wrong. If you have read anything, the reason why they are able to do this type of trawling is because the expense of storage (hard drives, etc) of said information has dropped so low that they can do it with out it breaking the bank, and hence why they have chosen to go that route. They do it because they can, its affordable. If you don’t believe me, go check out the price on a 1tb hard drive currently on the market. Then good luck trying to show me how much one cost back in 2003. The price of storing data is cheap these days and will only get cheaper. It costs them almost nothing to store and so thats why they can and do. It makes sense economically.
Bob h
The big risk for Snowden is that the US picks up a rogue oligarch Putin really wants, and offers to trade.