But we are still torturing people, now at Gitmo:
America, Fuck Yeah! I guess we’ll just keep them there forever, and if they try to take matters into their own hands, we’ll force-feed them the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness we are known for. Because, you know, freedom requires force-feeding people who have been incarcerated for a decade with no option for legal redress.
And now this thread will automatically become infested with soulless allegedly liberal internet tough guys who view this as an attack on Obama. I can’t wait for the first dickhead to write something along the lines of “Yeah, but if we let them starve, Greenwald would blame Obama.” Because you know it’s fucking inevitable the internet tough guys will trot out the same tropes they used to deny that Manning was bveing tortured, even though the Navy and the UN now agree he was mistreated, even though this is really all about our pants-wetting Congress and the stupid American people who elect them
And remember, they hate us for our freedom.
Just Some Fuckhead
You could have shot me a facemail before posting so I could make popcorn.
Violet
Do you read your own blog? Tom posted this earlier.
SiubhanDuinne
Tom posted a thread on this earlier today.
Just sayin’ (I can’t remember whom that line pisses off, but I’m happy to oblige).
ranchandsyrup
The Good Dr. Levenson covered this below. But a double up on this issue is appropriate. Unh double up Unh Unh.
SiubhanDuinne
@Violet:
What Violet said.
SiubhanDuinne
@SiubhanDuinne:
Also, too, ranchandsyrup.
ranchandsyrup
@SiubhanDuinne: What you said about what Violet said.
Just Some Fuckhead
Why are we torturing this subject half to death?
Sibling Nonspecific Firearm of Random Adjective Followed by a Noun That Describes a Mental State (fka AWS)
@Violet: beat me to it.
Narcissus
@Violet:
heh ha hah no.
ranchandsyrup
@Just Some Fuckhead: *rimjob* i mean *rimshot*
Cain
Trolling your own commentariat. How nice. :-) On the other hand, I do agree with you. It’s pretty bad what they are doing this. I don’t really blame Obama, it’s not like he’s micromanaging this. But I do think he should step in and let them starve to death.
Sibling Nonspecific Firearm of Random Adjective Followed by a Noun That Describes a Mental State (fka AWS)
also, inb4 the “Balloon Juice Commentariat” approves of what’s happening at Gitmo.
socoolsofresh
Nothingburger!
Self-Righteous Little White Guy
What did your Senators say when you contacted them to express your anger, John?
Spaghetti Lee
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy:
No one is allowed to ever be angry about everything if they’re not actively leading a campaign for the federal government to change it! Ever! EVER!
burnspbesq
No, I’ll start somewhere else.
What is the alleged provenance of the document referred to, but not linked to, by the Guardian? Are you prepared to believe, without any confirmation other than “trust us,” that the video accurately depicts what is being done at Guantanamo? And if so, based on what?
Are you claiming to have reached a legal conclusion that force-feeding of the type alleged constitutes torture, or are you just reacting viscerally? If the former, what is the basis for that conclusion?
I’m not defending the practice of force-feeding. It shouldn’t be happening. But you are far too trusting of “information” that fits into your pre-conceived notions, when skepticism is a more appropriate starting point.
ETA: In raising these questions, I am acting in full compliance with the Greenwaldian principles of journalism, i.e., assume the other side is lying and then go look for proof that they are.
NickT
“soulless allegedly liberal internet tough guys”
Leave DougJ alooooooooooone!!!!
John Cole
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy: WV may be small, but my Senators don’t actually answer their phones when constituents call. I guess I could call and rant at some 21 year old unpaid intern.
Jackass.
I blame John
Yea but greenwald sucks I mean come on we can all agree on that.
Howard Beale IV
Q: What would you call the death of 50% of the DC beltway from a MERS outbreak?
A: Too little, too late
B A immense tragedy
C: A good start.
NickT
@Howard Beale IV:
A Rasmussen rounding error?
askew
So, what’s your solution then if Congress won’t fund Obama closing GITMO? Other than trolling your own blog and bitching at people who don’t agree with you that is. Congress has tied Obama’s hands so he can’t close GITMO and he can’t move them to the US for trial. They are stuck in limbo. Should we just let them starve themselves then? Why can’t you make an actual argument for a solution instead of just trolling your own blog and mocking people who acknowledge reality.
Howard Beale IV
@burnspbesq: Just like we shouldn’t be trusting the Powerpoint presenation SNowden gate to the Gouardian and the WaPo as well-after all, where’s the MDAC hash to prove its’ the real deal?
mk3872
I can’t help but chuckle when Libs blame Obama for keeping Gitmo open.
It’s such classic loser Liberalism.
Don’t “activists” have any idea at all how to pressure their Congress critters?
Instead, this has always devolved into somehow being Obama’s fault. Just like everything else bad that’s happened in the last 4 years …
quannlace
Good Lord, why are you giving him such shit for posting on his own blog? This story is so horrific, it should be repeated over and over. If only to get through the goddamn Zimmerman trial fog that blankets cable news.
Self-Righteous Little White Guy
@John Cole: So you haven’t called, or written, or gone to their district offices then. Thanks for clearing that up.
Here’s what a famous Obot wrote about the situation, btw.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Cain: Fuck ’em! I guess they should have thought more carefully when they set out to make the Obama administration look bad.
Johnny Coelacanth
Does any of this challenge the assumption that Glenn Greenwald is a douchebag of the first water?
Comrade Jake
Are there a lot of people on this blog defending the force feeding? I think these people are affectionately called Botsplainers, but then Cole would never troll his own site, amirite?
burnspbesq
Re the Greenwaldian principles of journalism:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/06/glenn-greenwald-is-ralph-nader.html
Howard Beale IV
@Just Some Fuckhead: In order to make it say anything we want to, that’s why.
askew
@John Cole:
Yeah, he’s the jackass. God forbid that you actually get off your ass and contact Congress about doing something about this. It is so much easier to blame Obama and then sneer at people who rightfully blame Congress for this problem.
Johnny Coelacanth
“Glenn Greenwald Is Ralph Nader” i.e., overrated at any speed.
Howard Beale IV
@burnspbesq: You’re a week or more late with that. we’ve moved on to other nohtingburgers.
Comrade Jake
@quannlace: I caught a bit of the trial today on MSNBC. Cable news fail, all the way.
burnspbesq
@Howard Beale IV:
You decide for yourself how much corroboration you think you need. More is better than less, and some is better than none.
Narcissus
I seem to remember this very blog exhorting me to call senators and representatives a bunch of times
geg6
This is awful, so I agree that it should stop. And I also agree that it is a job of Congress and the people to end it by finally closing Gitmo. I won’t hold my breath waiting for that to happen. But the force feeding must stop. If I was those men, I’d rather be dead than stay there in limbo the rest of my life, so I sympathize.
Spaghetti Lee
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy:
Congratulations, your arbitrary standards for determining who ‘really cares’ about an issue have not been met, and you’re able to safely dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as a hypocrite and thus stop caring about the issue immediately. You deserve a reward for your hard work fighting Wrongness on the Internet.
dewzke
WtF? the comments on this thread are inane and inhumane.
burnspbesq
@Howard Beale IV:
The fact that you would consider that a nothingburger is interesting on multiple levels.
socoolsofresh
It is always congresses fault. Always. And they really do listen if you call them, or better yet, write them a letter. It is totally worth it.
raven
@dewzke: A click is a click.
Comrade Jake
I honestly just wonder which asshat down at Gitmo decided that force feeding these guys was the next logical step here. Keefer Sutherland?
askew
@mk3872:
You’ve basically summed up the problem with the netroots, MSNBC and all of the liberal punditry. It’s easier to rail at one man for not waving a magic wand and fixing everything than it is to organize and lobby Congress to do the right thing. Even “liberal” Russ Feingold and Bernie Sanders voted against closing GITMO yet somehow Obama is supposed to make it all better.
And these whiners don’t actually have a solution to any problem. It’s just Obama didn’t make it better. Are they all arguing that we should let these prisoners starve to death? Of course not. And if they did starve to death, every damn one of them would blame Obama for not force feeding them.
JWL
Too many people are focused on the nuts running the show in the GOP, and what’s happening to that party.
I submit they ignore the divorce in progress of the democratic rank and file from their current representatives in congress assembled (and I’m a native San Franciscan who is looking directly at you, Dianne).
No democrat worth their salt approves of this surveillance bullshit. They want it stopped, until and unless they have a say in the matter.
burnspbesq
Given that tomorrow is the first day of Ramadan, the force-feeding really does have to stop right the fuck now.
NickT
On a personal level, I think people should have the right to end their lives without interference, provided that they are of sound mind and uncoerced. That said, there’s a pretty big unasked question about all of this:
What does the law require? Can Obama/the Gitmo authorities legally allow the prisoners to starve themselves to death or are they obliged to intervene?
Before we all get too sure of ourselves, it might be a good idea to clear this point up.
Keith G
@burnspbesq:
“It’s full of lies and distortions and half truths by people with an agenda.”
Edit.. let me clarify that this is a paraphrase.
This was always one my favorite wingnut defenses in back and 2003-2006. Glad to see that there are folks who still find a use for it.
IMHO, when dealing with this topic, history is not going to be kind to the leadership on either side of Pennsylvania Ave.
askew
@Comrade Jake:
So, if the prisoners are refusing to eat, what should they have done instead? Let’s hear a solution instead of bitching.
JPL
@John Cole: Write MSM and demand that they cover the issue. Using your forum is step one but until the public is aware of the atrocities, it won’t be changed.
LesGS
There was a pretty good discussion about this in Tom’s post earlier, made possible, I believe, because his original post was challenging – very challenging if you watched the video – but non-dickish. Dickish posts, like this one, tend to prompt dickish threads, and, I suspect, very little remedial action. Unless you think ARGLEBARGLE in and of itself moves us all in a positive direction.
Spaghetti Lee
@askew:
A: “These emoprogs are focusing too much on Obama! They should focus on congress! That’s how real change is made!”
B: “Those emoprogs in congress are a bunch of hypocrites! They’ll never do anything about Gitmo! It’s a dead issue!”
Do you see the conflict here? It’s easy to be a smug asshole when your only argument is that your opponents need to do something which you admit is politically futile for you to take them seriously.
NickT
@askew:
Let’s start by asking what the law mandates under these circumstances. Until we know the answer to that question, no-one here has any basis for a worthwhile opinion on the responsibility/culpability involved in this issue.
MattR
@askew:
Yes. I would prefer it had not come to that, but given the options available to them, if those prisoners in Gitmo want to end their own life now, they should be given that choice.
burnspbesq
@Keith G:
I said nothing like that, except in your diseased imagination. Saying something is possible is not the same as saying it is.
boss bitch
I don’t have the energy.
Self-Righteous Little White Guy
@Spaghetti Lee: I’m having trouble finding where I typed any of the things you’ve attributed to me. Can you show me where I said any of that?
PS I’ve already expressed my condemnation of our treatment of detainees at Gitmo to my Senators and Congressman. You should too.
NickT
@MattR:
Are we legally able to do so? That’s the key point here. Do our laws permit us to give prisoners that choice? Surely someone on here must be able to offer an informed legal opinion.
JPL
@MattR: If they were citizens of our fine states, the doctors would be sending them bills for their force feeding.
max
@mk3872: It’s such classic loser Liberalism.
Of course! To really Win the Day liberals should adopt all of George W. Bush’s policies.
max
[‘Oh, wait.’]
askew
@NickT:
Normally, I’d be all for that. But, GITMO has basically operated outside of international law from inception. I am not sure the law really matters now. Now, Obama is supposed to magically fix the problem without any funds and without approval to move the prisoners to the U.S.
The only solution is to get these prisoners released to another country but there aren’t a lot of countries lining up to take them.
If we are going to let them starve themselves, it would be more humane to open their cells and let them walk into the ocean and drown themselves instead. Starving to death is going to take a long time and will be quite painful. At least drowning is quick.
socoolsofresh
Always blame congress but then also call them up because that is the most effective way to solve it. Although they are also the problem.
Spaghetti Lee
@raven:
Yeah, that John Cole, such a big-media hotshot, always fighting for clicks and ad dollars.
When you have nothing left, that’s when you accuse your opponent of being a self-promoter. After all, how could someone disagree with your wisdom? They must just be trying to get clicks and pageviews!
On that note, enough of this “trolling your own blog” bullshit. Not everything revolves around you and your delicate troll-averse feelings, and you are not entitled to have anyone only write things you agree with. Have any of you cynical assknucklers wondered if maybe Cole is just passionate about this issue, and it’s not all about whatever stupid pissy blog-fight grudge you have?
NickT
@askew:
The problem here is that the law does matter. If it prohibits us from allowing the prisoners to make their own choice, that’s obviously something we should have in consideration before we blame people. As I’ve said, personally, I think the prisoners should be able to elect to die, if they are of sound mind and uncoerced.
dewzke
@raven:
I’m just appalled at some comments. Do people not watch the videos?
Self-Righteous Little White Guy
@JWL: Dianne Feinstein called for the detainees who have been cleared to be returned months ago. Be sure and thank her for that.
JPL
@Spaghetti Lee: and the point is?
socoolsofresh
Have no problem blaming Bush for policies that occurred under his watch but if it happens under Obama’s watch you must be a troll.
boss bitch
Wait, was Manning “tortured” or “mistreated”? Last I heard, we beat him with chains.
Johnny Coelacanth
Speaking of trolling your own blog, Tbogg has a Greenwald post up that’s threatening to blow past the 500-comment mark. A cluster of Firebaggers descended upon him, seeking to bleach his bones. Lulz ensue.
SiubhanDuinne
@quannlace:
Oh, I agree. But John could at least say something like “Further to Tom’s brilliant post earlier,” or “Here are some more thoughts on the ‘In Our Name’ discussion that took place a few hours ago” or something. It’s like he doesn’t even realize that a lot of Juicers have already weighed in on this topic, many of them very thoughtfully.
(Not really beating up on John here, despite appearances — I imagine all of us, FPers and backbench commenters alike, have introduced brilliant topics that were chewed to death just a few threads downstairs).
El Tiburon
According to Mos Def’s wiki page, his Dad was a member of the Nation of Islam. So, is there any reason we should not question his motives here? Sure, it looked painful and terrible, but we have a lot of research to do in order to delve into his private life and find something to glom onto and change the topic.
It’s no longer about the message folks. It’s all about the messenger.
Spaghetti Lee
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy:
“So you haven’t called, or written, or gone to their district offices then.” = arbitrary standards
“Thanks for clearing that up.” = dismissal of opponent as hypocrite.
Soonergrunt
Yeah, it’s bad. Kudos to Mos Def for going through this in order to highlight it. I don’t know if force feeding is legal or not, but it looks like it could be torture. IANAL, but it sure looks like it fits the definition of assault that I was given to work under both as a military leader and a Surgical Technician in both military and civilian practice.
Personally I think Obama should put these people on a plane, land that plane in the country of origin, and shove these guys off the plane with a couple of bottles of water and a couple of hlal meals, and a couple of hundred bucks in local currency and a hearty good luck. Further, he should then tell the teabaggers in Congress to go fuck themselves, knowing full well the House of Republicans would impeach him, even if the Senate would acquit.
As for Manning’s mistreatment, you know who else thinks Manning was never tortured, even as his treatment violated Navy/USMC standards, and basic common sense and decency resulting in extra sentencing credit? The Judge and Manning’s lawyer, and Manning himself, according to the testimony he gave at that hearing-the testimony where he repeatedly and specifically said “no, I wasn’t tortured…”
@John Cole: Yes, you are supposed to call and rant at some 21-year-old intern so that he or she takes your name and address down and tells her supervisor in constituent affairs that one of their constitutents is really really upset. I have a flat out psychopath in the tank for big oil in Jim Inhofe, and a certifiable nut (but an honest one) in Tom Coburn for my Senators and a conservative but reasonable-sounding Congressman named Tom Cole. None of them gives a shit about the opinions of Democrats in Oklahoma, but their staffs do listen and note when I call. At least in your case, one of your Senators might theoretically at least listen because he’s more or less a Democrat.
El Tiburon
@NickT:
And then turned into Soylent Green.
Soylent Green is just people.
Like we say in south Texas: fuck ’em and feed ’em fisheads.
Let the fuckers die. Rock on!
gelfling545
@John Cole: Or you could call and, without ranting, say to the intern that that you want your senator to know that you strongly object to this practice, believe it is inconsistent with humanitarian values and want it stopped. My kid actually was an intern for the local office of one of our senators and part of her job was to log every single call, even the ones from the old geezer who called every morning with the last night’s Fox News outrage, summarize their issue and get their contact information. The senator was apprised of every single voter contact & its contents. Calling can matter a lot. If the senator only ever hears “Hell, yeah. Go for it.” how will s/he ever know people don’t approve. Hearing from people in your state who vote matters more than reading it 20 times on the internet.
askew
@NickT:
What law? US, US Military or international law? And are any of the prisoners there still of sound mind? I’d doubt it. They’ve been in hell on earth for years now.
SiubhanDuinne
@burnspbesq: Insha’Allah.
NickT
@Soonergrunt:
But that would be uncivil, Sooner.
raven
@Spaghetti Lee: You know what, just go fuck yourself you sanctimonious punk. I’m sick of your constant lectures.
Marc
Y’know, if you post that our treatment of Gitmo prisoners is a problem you’d find a lot of support here. Obama is complicit in the US security state – although he has consistently been advocating shutting it down and has been blocked in doing so by Congress. This is not a detail.
But words mean things. Water torture, sleep deprivation, and the other tools of the Bush state are not the same as what is happening there now. And we see entirely too much of this sort of sloppy thinking from the ObamaWorseThanBush crowd.
It also doesn’t help to use this as a club to attack people because they disagree with you on other subjects. This leads to the impression that the force-feeding is only a thing to score points with, not something that you actually care about.
Self-Righteous Little White Guy
@Spaghetti Lee: Thanks for clearing that up.
socoolsofresh
Also, Mos Def is an actor and has been in a couple movies so how do we not know that he is giving a performance in this video? Obviously he has a hidden agenda so we must be skeptical.
seabe
@askew: So, if the prisoners are refusing to eat, what should they have done instead?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Tokyo
Where a prisoner refuses nourishment and is considered by the physician as capable of forming an unimpaired and rational judgment concerning the consequences of such a voluntary refusal of nourishment, he or she shall not be fed artificially. The decision as to the capacity of the prisoner to form such a judgment should be confirmed by at least one other independent physician. The consequences of the refusal of nourishment shall be explained by the physician to the prisoner.
MikeJ
@Marc:
That’s because it’s not something he actually cares about, it’s just a way to say omgworsethanbushhesoldusout.
Howard Beale IV
@burnspbesq: Now that all depends, doesn’t it? L’affaire Snowden hasn’t really reached critical mass yet amonmgst the proleteriat, and the longer it drags out he risks becoming more of pariah than a patriot as everyone is busiy shooting the messengers and not the message. And thanks to manufactured consent and the current DC stegnography masquerading as journalism, this isn’t the least bit surprising.
Now that EPIC has called on the Supreme Court for superintending control over the lawsiut they filed against the FISA court’s approval of NSA’s Verizon records acquisitions, let’s see how that plays out. If SCOTUS spikes it, welcome to Pantopicon-which, given that the appointments of the FISA court are done by the SCOTUS Chief Justice, almost seems like a foregone conclusion.
NickT
@askew:
I don’t know what body of law applies here – but I don’t see any point in blaming people for doing what they believe the law obliges them to do, if that’s the reason for the force-feeding. Until we know what laws apply here, we can do as much moralizing and blame-casting as we like, one way or the other, but we don’t have much in the way of ground to stand on.
Baud
@Soonergrunt: @Marc:
I like both of your comments.
MattR
@NickT: It seems that the rules that apply to Gitmo are written as they become necessary.
You are right about legality, put my comment was meant to point out that, as horrible as it may be, I believe it is morally acceptable to allow these people to starve themselves to death. It could even be the most humane option available to them.
Zandar
No, you’re pretty much 100% right about that and I agree with you completely.
burnspbesq
@NickT:
The Gitmo detainees are either prisoners of war or “persons taking no active part in the hostilities.” Either way, I think the starting point in any legal analysis is the Third Geneva Convention of 1949, to which the United States is a Contracting State.
Article III, section 1(d), prohibits “outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;”
When Ramadan begins at sunrise tomorrow, Article XXXIV also comes into play; it’s pretty simple to argue that a Muslim detainee being force-fed between sunrise and sunset during Ramadan isn’t “enjoy[ing] complete latitude in the exercise of their religious duties.”
However, one also has to view this in light of Article XV, which provides that “The Power detaining prisoners of war shall be bound to provide free of charge for their maintenance and for the medical attention required by their state of health.”
I’m pretty certain that I know where I net out, but there are non-trivial arguments on the other side.
NickT
@raven:
I kinda doubt that Mr Wet Noodle is capable of getting very far with that project either.
noabsolutes
Also: Yasiin Bey staging this calls attention to how many people who look like him– black, in the U.S., usually younger and male– are imprisoned and dehumanized, and how much our system would rather see them languish than treat them fairly, take their grievances seriously, or afford them meaningful roles in society. Just keeping whole populations alive but with no hope is pretty much the mission of prisons, including the most egregious one at Guantanamo where it’s taken to its logical extreme.
Spaghetti Lee
For the record, I do think this is a complicated issue. No, I don’t think Obama is able to solve it with a snap of fingers, nor should he (things in politics that get solved ad hoc and outside of existing legal contexts have a habit of going sour, even if the original goal was as pure as can be). My gut issue is that the prisoners should have autonomy over their own bodies, and bodily autonomy is something self-described liberals ought to support, and if they’d rather die than stay in prison forever then I can’t really blame them. But I see the argument otherwise-if any suspect was able to commit suicide before being brought to trial, it would be terrible for the legal system, and, well, there’s an argument to be made that letting someone starve without attempting to save them is as inhumane as force-feeding them. Starving’s a terrible way to go. They did make their own choice, but if the prisoners felt they actually had a future, maybe they wouldn’t feel so desperate. I don’t think any rational person would say it’s a choice freely made.
But I just can’t stand the attitude, from the NickT’s and Ravens and Askews and Botsplainers of the world. Whenever anything comes up that looks like it might criticize Obama, it’s an instant wave of “WELL YOU’RE JUST TROLLING FOR PAGEVIEWS” and “DO YOU WANT A PONY EMOPROG” and “CALL CONGRESS DO IT NOW NOW NOW THAT’S THE ONLY WAY” (even though congress’ assholery is a large part of why this issue exists in the first place.) If you guys really are interested in having a measured and nuanced debate on the issue, as opposed to the people you think are just mindlessly bashing Obama, then act like it.
askew
@seabe:
Does that conflict with international, US or US Military law for how prisoners are to be treated?
Morbo
You almost have this policies over personalities thing figured out.
NickT
@burnspbesq:
Right – so there is in fact a reasonably solid argument that we have a legal duty to force-feed them in order to maintain their health.
JWL
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy: @Self-Righteous Little White Guy: Well, imagine that.
I call for peace on earth.
Dianne Feinstein endorsed America’s War on Iraq. She has endorsed, every step of the way, the creation of the sinister surveillance state that threatens the liberties of us all.
You would have me impressed that “she called” for dispensation of those her own beliefs placed in custody in the first place.
Again, I “call” for peace on earth.
Kiss off.
Just Some Fuckhead
John, why don’t you fucking do something about this instead of sitting on your ass waiting for the President to get you a pony?
Fly down to Gitmo and bust ’em out, Chuck-Norris-style.
Yeah. That’s what I thought. Chickenshit.
Not another fucking word about the branch of government with oversight of Gitmo being responsible for Gitmo until you’ve danced with every strawman I can invent. Dance for me, fatman, dance!
EthylEster
@dewzke:
and your point is? remember, it’s b-j.
Higgs Boson's Mate
Allow them to starve themselves to death. What do they have to live for, another day in a cage, another kangaroo court, another secret indictment? Starving yourself to death is far from an easy way out. If they detest their situation so much that they’re willing to take that exit from it then let them. We’ve already stolen their freedom and any hope of regaining it. Stealing their dignity by force feeding them is just plain cruel and unusual punishment.
NickT
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Please, not the dancing. Think of the children.
Johnny Coelacanth
@EthylEster: Is that you, Spatula?
Howard Beale IV
@Johnny Coelacanth: TBogg is an unabhased Obot who’d felch hin in a New York minute if he was asked.
Fuck him.
askew
@NickT:
Yeah, I agree with that.
If letting them die is the most human option, we could certainly help them do it in a way that is less lengthy and painful.
Johnny Coelacanth
@Howard Beale IV: Yeah, but he’s so much funnier than you are, I’m willing NOT to fuck him.
Self-Righteous Little White Guy
@JWL: Sorry for bringing actual facts about the topic of this thread to your attention. Appreciate knowing you can’t be bothered with them. I’ll make a point of ignoring you in the future.
Sibling Nonspecific Firearm of Random Adjective Followed by a Noun That Describes a Mental State (fka AWS)
@burnspbesq:
FWIW, somewhere else on the net I read that they were going to do the feedings in the “off-hours” of Ramadan, and that had been argued before the military court.
link to a Guardian article about the Ramadan issue.
Keith G
@burnspbesq: Actually what you said was rather similar to that. You were questioning provenance and credibility were you not?
I read that you were starting with the assumption that the other side is lying. Those were your words. Were they not, counselor?
beliebert
Ball Juice Cole going all wrong way again after injecting too much Greenwald heroin into his neck.
MattR
@burnspbesq: IANAL, but I take “shall be bound to provide” to mean that they must make it available, but not that they are required, or allowed, to force prisoners to accept unwanted medical care, which IMO would be an “outrage upon personal digntiy”. But it does not seem cut and dried
kc
@askew:
Put food on a tray, put it in the cell.
eemom
And the gratuitous assholery of this post added to Tom Levenson’s thoughtful, decent and heartfelt treatment of this exact subject earlier today HOW, exactly?
Sorry Cole, but this time you really suck.
Richard
One thing that I’ve found quite strange since the Snowden/Greenwald story began is that, with all the hyperbole written both by diarists on liberal blogs and their commenters about how the USA is now an Orwellian police state that uses illegal and unconstitutional powers for purely evil ends and that we are all being victimized, I have yet to actually see someone suggest that Obama be forced to resign or be impeached, even though he is being blamed for most if not all of these supposedly criminal acts by many of those folks.
I suppose you could attribute that to a “but the Republicans are worse” mentality but, if you truly think the guy is a criminal dictator shouldn’t you be advocating for his removal, regardless, for the good of the nation? After all, it would be Biden stepping in his shoes.
kc
@askew:
Put food on a tray, put it in the cell. Let the captive person decide whether to eat it.
JWL
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy: And I’ll be better off for it.
Many thanks.
Comrade Jake
@askew: so I can’t criticize the force feeding unless I have a solution? OK.
Frankly I appreciate that Congress is an impediment here, but I wish Obama would either find some means to transfer these guys or allow them access to some practical level of legal processing. Easier said than done, I appreciate that, and no doubt there’s a political price to be paid. But I don’t accept the explanation that his hands are tied by Congress. I just think that happens to be politically expedient at the moment.
Self-Righteous Little White Guy
@Spaghetti Lee: I agree with you, though I would note that the tone of the actual post contributes to the tone of the responses.. Also, I never said that calling Congress is the only way or only thing people can or should do. There’s public protest, direct action, and even civil disobedience for those with the courage and capability of doing so.
I’m advocating for the idea that citizens who don’t like what their government is doing in their names use their voices to speak up to their elected representatives. The people who watch Fox News have their reps’ offices on speed dial. Decent people like you should too.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Comrade Jake:
Obama could lose reelection or Republicans could get a filibustering majority in the Senate, or even worse, gain control of the House.
MattR
@askew:
No argument from me there. I would fully support that effort. Though that is where you probably run into bigger legal issues if the govt is actively assisting the process, rather than just sitting back and letting it happen.
burnspbesq
@NickT:
There is an argument that can be made with a straight face, because there are competing considerations that have to be balanced. I would hope that that argument turns out to be a loser.
muddy
@NickT: http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4623&context=flr
Apparently force feeding prisoners is allowed in the US, despite theories about violation of bodily autonomy. Of course they don’t care about that when it comes to unwanted transvaginal ultrasounds either.
seabe
@askew: International law most certainly believes it’s illegal:
http://www.france24.com/en/20130501-force-feeding-breaches-law-un-says-amid-guantanamo-strike
And more to the point, I consider force-feeding in this context to be torture, which is illegal under US and international law. Second, the U.S. is a signatory to the WMA, which adopted these protocols. Third, I don’t care if this was perfectly legal; it’s highly unethical policy and should be stopped immediately.
John Weiss
Crap, this all crap. Turn the poor fuckers out in West Texas, give ’em a little land and be shut of this inhumane nonsense.
Mnemosyne
@dewzke:
It’s probably because this is the second time the video has been posted on this website today, so the shock value is used up. How many times are we supposed to watch the same video and be shocked by its contents?
ETA: I didn’t have the stomach to watch it all the way through even once, but apparently I’m supposed to watch it over and over again because otherwise I’m not sufficiently horrified.
SiubhanDuinne
First thing tomorrow morning I will phone both the district and DC offices of Senator Isakson, Senator Chambliss, and Representative Woodall (that’s six separate calls, or 60 calls for those of you using the McMegan Calculator — or is it .6 calls, I always get so confused by those crazy decimals and zeros) and let them know that I am opposed to force-feeding prisoners at Gitmo and urge them to close it soonest and quit already with the food funnels.
burnspbesq
@MattR:
That’s where I come out, but you’re correct that it’s not a slam dunk.
Marc
@Johnny Coelacanth:
That thread is a fascinating window onto the absolute tribalism that we’re seeing on this issue. Greenwald made a reflexive and uniformed attack on someone who questioned his advocacy for Snowden. You could support both Greenwald and Snowden and say “yep, Glenn made a mistake there.” Instead it’s wall-to-wall character attacks on Tbogg, Serwer, and anyone who disagrees with them. It’s as if the Snowden devotees are infuriated by the existence of people who disagree with them.
gnomedad
@Soonergrunt:
Good point. It’s not as if the intern is working for a sociopath against his/her will. Save your compassion for when you politely turn down and hang up on the poor slob asking you to change your cable service. That individual probably doesn’t have many options.
(Confession: I am not a model of aggressive congresscritter phoning.)
muddy
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy: That was a very useful link from Joy Reid’s blog. Thanks.
different-church-lady
Wait a minute, when did Mos Def get thrown in Gitmo? I mean, his music isn’t that bad.
NickT
@burnspbesq:
But you don’t think that it would turn out to be a loser, do you? If it did, that would open the way for even more international embarrassment for the US as the prisoners start dying off one by one.
I think the core of all this is the monstrous extra-legal system erected by both parties in the wake of 9/11to detain these prisoners in circumstances that degrade us far more than them. We should have had enough faith in our regular court system to try and convict them.
Comrade Jake
@Marc: the Greenwald acolytes learned from one of the best.
Marc
@Keith G:
I read his post as “this is an example of what Greenwald habitually does, and if you’re on the receiving end of it you might appreciate why these tactics are obnoxious”.
Keith G
@Richard: While I am sure there are a few people who have used the criminal dictator formulation which you refer to, I haven’t seen much in evidence here. IOW, you are busy defending Obama against attacks that are not being used.
Just Some Fuckhead
@seabe:
So. We can still waterboard them with soup, right?
Self-Righteous Little White Guy
@muddy: You’re welcome.
Spaghetti Lee
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy:
though I would note that the tone of the actual post contributes to the tone of the responses…
I think to be honest this is one of those irreconcilable things that depends where you are on the issue in the first place. I personally don’t think John’s tone is that out of line. I mean, of course he’s caricaturing his opponents-everyone does that to people they’re arguing against-but there certainly are people here who think that such arguments are personal attacks on Obama, that personally attacking Obama is dangerous for the Democratic Party’s fortunes and the country’s as a whole, should the GOP be able to exploit the divisions (I don’t disagree with that entirely, but at a certain point it turns from being pragmatic about politics to just bullying people who disagree with you), and there are people who seem incapable of talking about civil liberties without reducing it to whether you support or don’t support Glenn Greenwald. It’s a caricature of people he disagrees with and not a very charitable one, but, well, I don’t think it’s uncalled for. Again, I think that’s one of those things people will see differently depending on where they already stand.
I really do try to take the high road (like John, I have a temper), but how should one do to an argument like ‘he’s just trolling for clicks’ or ‘You’re just attacking Obama for no reason?’
Comrade Jake
@NickT: I appreciate what you’re trying to say here, but I think the core of all of this is that the American public does not give a shit about what happens to the prisoners in Gitmo.
askew
@Comrade Jake:
But, his hands are tied. Obama’s already transferred and tried all the prisoners he could from GITMO. This is something he started on weeks into his 1st term. The prisoners left are the ones that can’t be tried because of the mess W’s admin made of their cases so they need to be released somewhere or moved to a US jail indefinitely. Congress won’t let them come to the US at all so they have to be released somewhere. The admin has been working to move a portion of them to Yemen but with the unrest there that has been in flux.
It may be politically expedient for Congress to tie Obama’s hands and then blame him for GITMO, but it does nothing for the Obama admin. He never has to run for office again. He’s already taken heat from the left for not waving his magic wand and closing GITMO and I don’t think anyone else in the country gives a shit what happens with GITMO. He’s also paying a price in the international community for not closing GITMO. I am sure he’d love to have this problem solved, but there really isn’t a solution other than Congress letting the prisoners come to the US or having them transferred to another country. W and Congress created a legal nightmare with no good solutions.
NickT
@muddy:
That’s what I suspected would be the case – and it adds to my point that there’s no point in people on here denouncing each other and/or Obama when the law seems to require that the prisoners be kept alive.
burnspbesq
@NickT:
Guantanamo reminds me of the famous Bear Bryant statement about the forward pass: “There are three things that can happen, and two of them are bad.”
Letting detainees starve is bad. Force-feeding them is bad. The only good thing that can happen is to get them the fuck out of there.
GregB
The American public by and large doesn’t give a shit about American citizens in jail in our country. I am comfortable in saying that large swathes give even fewer shits about non-Americans in Cuba.
Sad to say.
NickT
@Comrade Jake:
I suspect you are right about that. We’ve certainly seen enough embarrassing public panics over the prospect of relocating them to a Supermax prison or, in the case of KSM, trying him in the New York courts. The media and the military-political-industrial complex have done a fine job keeping the American people scared out of their wits on these matters.
Villago Delenda Est
The war criminals Bush and Cheney need to be tried, convicted, and hanged.
askew
@seabe:
Well, if you consider it torture I guess it is settled then. It’s been shown over the past 5 years that nothing is cut and dried with GITMO and the law because it was originally created outside of US and international laws, so unwinding it isn’t simple.
Personally, I don’t think they should be force-fed. I also think that if they want to kill themselves they should be able to do it in a quicker way than with starving to death. I have no idea what the laws are surrounding this though because it is a legal mess.
NickT
@burnspbesq:
Personally I’d put them into the arena with the Westborough Baptist crazies and tell them that the last living person goes free. There can be only one etc etc.
SiubhanDuinne
@different-church-lady:
Oh please.
quannlace
After a few more decades, will the prisoners in Gitmo be eligible for Social Security?
askew
@Mnemosyne:
It has more to do with the stupid comments Cole attached to the video with this post. He was picking a fight with the post and got one.
ChrisNYC
Like I said in Levenson’s post, this is a problem with incarceration, not Gitmo. Three states — only three — put any limits at all on force feeding; and those limits amount to requiring the state to show the bads that the forced feeding prevents rather than having them presumed. Search for cases. There are a lot. NYS CoA just came down with another opinion upholding it.
Not an 8th amendment violation. No right to commit suicide. No right to bodily integrity if you’re a danger to yourself or others. State has a responsibility to keep those in custody alive. (I know, I know). I myself am not sure if “let them die” is enough of a solution — that just leaves a huge space for the state to kill people in prison and say they wanted to die, seems to me.
What I don’t understand is why it can’t be done with an IV.
Jockey Full of Malbec
@NickT:
This.
If these had been treated as legal POWs (enemies in a war), or detained suspects (criminals) from day one, then there would be established laws covering them. But the ‘enemy combatant’ rhetoric has muddied the waters from the beginning. (In hindsight, probably because the Bush admin wanted to keep its options open as to how to deal with them).
IANAL but I do believe that, in general, governments are considered responsible for keeping those in their custody alive and reasonably healthy (anyone with domain knowledge, feel free to correct me, I’m educatedly-guessing here). And if you’re against the force-feeding, then you’re by necessity arguing for the US Govt to permit someone to starve to death under its “care”.
I’m not sure if the law would permit that, even if that were a President’s preference. AFAIK there’s no Federal ‘Right to Die’ statute to cover it.
If these had been declared POWs, we’d follow whatever repatriation procedure and let the native countries deal with them. If these had been declared criminals, we’d have to give them their fair trials, with evidence, and let the courts decide.
But they were declared ‘neither’… so now what?
SiubhanDuinne
@burnspbesq: Yup.
Keith G
@Marc: And yet in the main body of the post there is the suggestion that the video may not be trust worthy.
Keith G
Yikes! A duplicate.
Comrade Jake
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy: let me second a thank you to you for posting that Joy Reid piece. Everyone here should take the time to read it. I hope Cole does.
askew
Does anyone know if the government force-feed prisoners in our military and non-military prisons outside of GITMO? I know they did back when Alice Paul was holding hunger strikes during the women’s suffrage movement.
ChrisNYC
@askew: Yes, they do. See my post above. It’s litigated all the time. And prisoners always lose.
SiubhanDuinne
@ChrisNYC:
And as you (or someone) pointed out, one of those three is, amazingly, Georgia! Whocouldaguessed??
Comrade Jake
Why does everyone assume these prisoners would be better off if they were transferred?
Mnemosyne
IIRC, these hunger strikes started because the new commander of the camp cracked down on a lot of the small freedoms the remaining prisoners had (like living in dorms instead of in isolation cells, reading the Koran, etc.)
I think that firebaggers and Botsplainers alike can join hands and agree that David Woods needs to be fired. That’s what we should be calling the White House to demand.
ETA: This story from the UK from January has some more details about the start of the current hunger strike.
JWL
@Spaghetti Lee: Bashing Obama? About what?
The people of the United States do not have a clue about what is being done in their name, much less to them, because the democratic and republican party want it that way.
Explain to me where Obama’s policies depart from those of Dick Cheney.
It’s a rhetorical question. Neither you, or anyone else outside (of what?) 50-100 people, could possibly answer it.
Why on earth doesn’t that simple fact bother you?
burnspbesq
@Jockey Full of Malbec:
See comment 93.
Howard Beale IV
@Johnny Coelacanth: Being funny doesn’t bring home the bacon unless yer a comedian.
Spaghetti Lee
@JWL:
Why do you think I’m not bothered by that? I think there ought to be more transparency in government. I don’t think every fact about national security should be made public, because there are such things as security risks, but I don’t see how releasing info about the treatment of people we already have in custody is a security risk, either.
different-church-lady
Let’s assume for a moment that the theory Obama cannot close Gitmo legally is correct, and also cannot transfer prisoners to other institutions. Let’s also assume that just letting them all go ain’t a good idea.
Is there something in the law that says that Gimo must be a hell-hole outside of all reasonable accountability? Why can it not be run within the rules we use domestically?
muddy
“It is then we’ll see the rising of the moon.” – Bobby Sands, poet and hunger striker.
Starving at the door of one who has wronged you was a last resort for justice under ancient Irish law. The shame of having someone starving on your account was immense. These men are being orally raped with tubes as though they are foix gras geese.
My only complaint is that I don’t see why Greenwald has to be dragged into every damn thing.
different-church-lady
@JWL:
Obama’s policies involve massive preemptive invasions of foreign countries under false pretenses? I guess I missed the evening news one night.
Self-Righteous Little White Guy
@Spaghetti Lee: Thanks for responding, I appreciate it.
My pal Smartypants has blogged about “conciliatory rhetoric as ruthless political strategy.” She picked it up from Jonathan Chait, writing about Obama. If you keep treating your opponents respectfully, and press them to identify solutions to the problems they raise, they either have to join you in working toward a solution or risk being unmasked as someone uninterested in solutions, as my friend JWL did above.
burnspbesq
@different-church-lady:
In this case, there is considerable convergence between the serious answer and the snarky answer: to do that would be to admit that Brown Mooslim Terrists are actual human beings who have rights that we are required to respect.
different-church-lady
@muddy:
It clings to everything. Jerry thinks it’s an entity.
Keith G
@askew: No, Obama’s hands are not tied. He has options and therefore he has culpability.
different-church-lady
@burnspbesq: Could we at least have the conversation here? I mean, it seems so bloody obvious to me, but nobody’s even touched upon it.
NickT
@different-church-lady:
A floor wax and a dessert topping.
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
Take a look at my links at #162. Apparently conditions had improved a lot, particularly for the prisoners who had been cleared of wrongdoing but couldn’t find a country that would take them, but then Gitmo got a new commander, David Woods, who decided to be an asshole about the tiny freedoms the prisoners had been given.
I think there’s something very practical and specific we can demand here: fire David Woods.
Spaghetti Lee
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy:
To be honest, I think JWL had a point. Talk is cheap. Isn’t that what this thread is about? And Feinstein, as a senator, has the ability, to, you know, introduce a bill. She has a safe seat and everything, and no presidential ambitions. I also think JWL’s depiction of her as a pretty standard-issue Defense Democrat, and wondering how much her statement means in that context, is fair game.
Omnes Omnibus
@different-church-lady: The rules used domestically pretty much suck.
NickT
@Keith G:
You’ll notice that the article is filled with assumptions about Obama’s powers that are not supported by any actual evidence. It’s much too easy to simply assume that Obama can do whatever he likes on this issue.
ChrisNYC
@SiubhanDuinne: Oh, it’s your state! Congrats!
mk3872
Shouldn’t Congress just stop blocking Obama’s first ever executive order from 2009, closing Gitmo ??
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
Wow, so very specific on what Obama’s options actually are. Can you name a single one of the “hoops” that Nocera refers to so casually after reading that article, or are we supposed to take it on faith that “options” exist without Nocera telling us what they are?
MattR
@Mnemosyne: This is an excellent point. IMO, those prisoners who have been cleared of wrongdoing but are stuck at GITMO should be getting Club Med like treatment. We have absolutely ruined these peoples lives with little to no justification, so the least we can do is to make their new life as comfortable as possible.
ruemara
I know you’re not reading this far, but you’re being a douche. No one, NO ONE, would interpret this as being anti-Obama or pro-Greenwald, unless they’re insane. And no one is defending forced feeding, even if it is pointed out that letting them starve to death is also pretty cruel. So, GFY with that pretty little strawman. We got no solutions beyond harassing the 21 year old interns at our Congressman’s office. If that’s all you got to do, then that’s all you should be doing and that’s what your interns are for. Go give them a taste of what being a servant of the people’s all about.
@NickT: The world is a lot simpler without your stupid facts.
muddy
@ChrisNYC:
I’m sure no one would suspect that they were just euthanized by coercion would they?
The point of a hunger strike, as illustrated by Bobby Sands or whoever else, is that it requires a real commitment. Most people give up. It’s slow and horrible, and the slow motion horror of it is what makes the audience, if not your opponent, recoil. I would think it would be the hardest way to kill yourself.
different-church-lady
@Omnes Omnibus: Imprisonment pretty much sucks. It’s kinda baked into the cake.
That being said, we don’t hear anything about torture in domestic prisons, even in SuperMax. Yes, conditions are shitty, dangerous, and abusive but nobody talks about it within the framework of torture.
So either something different is going on at Gitmo, or the framework being used to talk about it is much more critical than the domestic system.
Self-Righteous Little White Guy
@Spaghetti Lee: And so, when Dianne Feinstein reverses herself and endorses a solution that she herself had previously rejected, do we: a) thank her and encourage her to do more, or b) keep slagging her as if nothing just happened?
NickT
@Mnemosyne:
Critical reading skills really are useful sometimes, aren’t they?
burnspbesq
@Keith G:
I have enormous respect for Joe Nocera as a business journalist. As a giver of legal opinions or a political pundit, not so much.
Just Some Fuckhead
@NickT:
Not nearly as easy as assuming the most powerful man on the planet who can drone kill anyone he pleases can’t ever do a fucking thing that’s hard or politically inexpedient or whatever.
NickT
@muddy:
It’s why Gandhi used it – it gave the warring factions time to think, but also stopped them from just thinking until the end of time.
Mnemosyne
@ruemara:
I have a solution: call the White House and demand that the commander of Gitmo be replaced since it was his new rules that precipitated this whole disaster.
Who’s with me?
different-church-lady
@ruemara:
Well, that pretty much sums up the problem, doesn’t it?
SiubhanDuinne
@ChrisNYC: I know! I am so fucking proud.
NickT
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I notice that you can’t actually defend the assumptions made in the article without going into hyperbolic and factfree claims yourself. Why is that?
NickT
@different-church-lady:
There’s a whole lot of insanity running around the US with a goofy grin and a backpack full of conspiracy theories right now.
Just Some Fuckhead
@NickT: I knocked down your “easy” bullshit pretty easily. You got anything else?
Spaghetti Lee
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy:
I can see the argument for giving her a pat on the back, but I can also see the reasoning for being suspicious.
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
Honestly, I think one of the reasons no one in the government wants to talk about what’s going on at Gitmo is that it’s no different than what happens in US prisons every day. If they fix it there, they have to at least pay lip service to fixing it here, too.
Spaghetti Lee
@SiubhanDuinne:
Shhh. Don’t let the teabaggers in the legislature hear you.
NickT
@Mnemosyne:
Seems reasonable to me. Of course, the teabaggers will scream about liberals coddling anti-American Muslim terrorists. But that’s pretty much par for the course anyway.
mk3872
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy: Well, since she’s a Congress critter, it essentially means ZERO accountability.
Writing to the prez to STOP moving Gitmo detainees one year, and then asking them to be moved AFTER she helped pass laws making it difficult means Obama failed us.
JWL
@Spaghetti Lee: I submit there is very, very little information that need be tagged as constituting “national security”. An extremely small percentage, such is my faith in the common sense of the American people.
I surmise you think differently.
ChrisNYC
@muddy: I’m not understanding euthanized by coercion.
I see the point in a hunger strike and completely agree. But, if we have these laws, which I think we do, that say that the prison can forcibly prevent you from starving to death, which Thatcher apparently either did not have or chose to disregard (right, because she was all, I’m tough and they will not break me, let them die), then why not do it in the less horrible manner? The state does not have to make the hunger strike and the feeding painful. I can see where that would take away the value as protest but that may (may) be better, no?
NickT
@Just Some Fuckhead:
You really don’t understand how this logical argument thing works at all, kid. Shame you were too lazy to acquire a few critical thinking skills rather than a motormouth coupled to a bad tailpipe.
Soonergrunt
@burnspbesq:
You know, some of us have always thought that, even while we were fighting them. It’s entirely consistent to think that people carrying or using arms on the battlefield or directly supporting those who do should be engaged up to and including killing them if necessary, and still think that they must be protected should they fall into our custody as prisoners.
Of course, if you read the Geneva Conventions literally, we could keep some of these guys as long as we have forces in Afghanistan, and some others could have been executed for “Brigandy” upon capture if they weren’t wearing anything approximating a uniform.* Not that either is a good idea or morally correct. Just to say that even international law doesn’t always make for warm fuzzy feelings. The law, particularly the law of armed conflict, is (it seems to me) frequently less about what is “right” than it is about what is “permissable.”
*Further to this–I was always VERY uncomfortable with the Bush admin legal theory that resisting US operations in Afghanistan by Afghan locals was a war crime irrespective of any other factors.
Keith G
@NickT: I thought it was specific enough, but here is more.
Just Some Fuckhead
@NickT: I understand the President is never capable of anything for a variety of reasons. That seems to be a pretty easy argument to make.
askew
@Mnemosyne:
Now, that is a reasonable solution that makes sense to get behind. I think we could start a WH petition and twitter push to make that happen.
Omnes Omnibus
@different-church-lady: From what I know of US prisons, I would say conditions are pretty in humane. The big differences with GITMO are that the people there have not been convicted of a crime and they have no idea when or how their ordeal will end.
NickT
@Just Some Fuckhead:
For the simpleminded, yes, that “argument” has considerable appeal. But then, so does goldbuggery.
Spaghetti Lee
@JWL:
I’ll hazard a guess that my standard for what constitutes ‘must be kept secret for national security’ is lower than yours but higher than most people’s.
For example, revealing publicly that the FBI is going to be in X location on Y day to detain escaped criminal Z using such-and-such method, before they do it, would be a security risk because it would allow Z to get away, plan ahead and get the jump on the cops, or some other third party to plant a bomb. Revealing what happened after it happened would at least give the FBI some measure of accountability in the court of public opinion, if not direct accountability.
different-church-lady
@Omnes Omnibus:
You beat me to it — I just remembered that was the bigger issue. We don’t even know if they deserve to be in a prison in the first place, no matter what the conditions.
Comrade Jake
Didn’t Obama actually lift the ban on sending detainees to Yemen (that Nocera calls for), only to have Republicans in the House subsequently block the funding? I have no idea where that legislation sits at the moment, but the obstruction on this issue really is ridiculous.
NickT
@Keith G:
Point out a specific claim, backed by evidence, in the piece you cited. It’s all handwaving and claims that Obama could have done whatever he liked – without a single citation of anything actually empowering Obama to do these things. You might as well assert that “everyone knows that unicorns exist” – and then cite your claim as proof that they do.
Just Some Fuckhead
@NickT: Easier than making the argument that he is capable of anything?
NickT
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Maybe you and Newt Gingrich should think of getting the band back together.
eemom
@ruemara:
Reading this far? He didn’t even read the earlier post on his own fucking blog — just tossed off his usual half-assed, less than half-thought “I’m a kewl kid firebagger” canned response on topics like this.
Once again, I’m sorry — but on a topic this horrific and tragic, I find that really, really offensive.
NickT
@Comrade Jake:
Yes, they did vote specifically to deny funding. Madness and folly, but that’s the Dead White Elephant party for you.
NickT
@eemom:
You should probably cancel your subscription and write the editor a stern letter.
eemom
@Omnes Omnibus:
There are plenty of horrific conditions and tragedies in US prisons for people who have NOT been convicted of a crime, as well — being detained because they can’t afford bail and the right to a speedy trial is a joke.
JWL
@Spaghetti Lee: “X, Y & Z” doing this or not doing that? Is that all you’ve got?
The War in Vietnam was also a matter of “national security”.. Although we eventually split, and our Republic survived.
You get the drift?
No, probably not.
Just Some Fuckhead
@NickT: Maybe you should hone your apologist schtick or leave it to the pros.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: See the link above for more specificity as its cites chapter and verse.
The ideas mentioned are not unknown. Others have written about them as well. And yes they are not easy and maybe not politically popular, but they are legal and have the added bonus of being morally correct.
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: That too.
raven
@eemom: Like I said.
muddy
@ChrisNYC: I’m saying that all kinds of people (probably particularly in the Middle East) would say that we had just put them down, you know how the US likes to execute so much. And they would not be wrong there.
The point of a hunger strike is that there isn’t an easy way out. The whole point of it is that it take a long time and be terrible. If you just let them carry on, the majority will give up and eat at some point. If you already give them an IV, they can’t change their mind.
Starving yourself is not just a way to suicide. It is a political statement. If they wanted just to die, why not bash their own head into the concrete or something?
burnspbesq
@different-church-lady:
That’s kind of a red herring, or should be. If you accept that these guys are prisoners of war (and frankly I don’t know of anything else to call them that makes legal or moral sense or can be justified by the facts as I currently know them), they can be held for the duration of hostilities, without having to be charged with anything. As prisoners of war, when the war ends, they have to be repatriated. Which is why the Cheney Crime Syndicate went to such lengths to invent new categories and new charges; Cheney and Addington couldn’t countenance the idea of sending these guys home when “the war ended.”
Spaghetti Lee
@JWL:
You get the drift?
No, probably not.
Yeah, automatically assuming anyone who disagrees with you is a complete idiot is a great way to have an argument! G’bye.
burnspbesq
@Keith G:
You’ve assumed the conclusion, and Nocera’s article provides no basis for any real analysis.
NickT
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I see you are as incapable of reading as you are of rational thought. Enjoy the taste of the large, thick, meaty pie that’s being rammed down your throat as I write.
raven
JWL
@Spaghetti Lee: OK. So long.
But, as Elaine Benis once noted, the upper hand is paramount when people split… and yours is the lower.
different-church-lady
@burnspbesq: I suppose that theory worked back before “warfare” became internationally asymmetrical and war was redefined down to actions against groups and individuals instead of sates.
Any way you look at it, I wouldn’t call it a red herring — Gitmo and a POW camp are clearly different beasts.
Just Some Fuckhead
@NickT: lolz
Aw! Is that your precious way of telling me you are going to pie me, assclown?
Keith G
@NickT: See above. Some specific citations is provided in the second article.
And there are more. Others have written about this. Instead of claiming ignorance as a reasonable excuse for derailing discussion, search and read.
I am not attacking Obama. Therefore, a reflexive defense of the President is not needed. This is something that almost any other imaginable president would also get wrong. It’s just that I want him to be better than the norm.
Bobby Thomson
@Just Some Fuckhead:
If by “knocked down,” you mean “assumed away the problem without identifying any specific solutions,” then yeah, you did a bangup job skipper.
Congress passed a law making it illegal to move them to the United States. Other countries won’t take them. Other possibilities include: (1) summary execution, (2) both voluntary and involuntary starvation, (3) opening the doors and saying, “if you can outrun the Cuban soldiers and outswim the sharks across the Atlantic, you’re home free! But don’t think about getting into a boat or we’ll sink it.” What’s your preferred solution?
Patricia Kayden
@askew: If they would prefer to starve to death, perhaps that should happen. That may shock Congress into closing Guantanamo Bay down and moving the rest of prisoners to the mainland for trials, instead of indefinite detention.
Perhaps. Who knows? I can also see the T’Baggers rejoicing if they start dropping from starvation.
President Obama has made it abundantly clear that he wants to shut it down.
burnspbesq
@Keith G:
I sympathize with Posner’s view, and I wish he were right, but he’s not.
The Constitution gives only Congress the power to declare war. Implicit in that grant of power is a concomitant grant of power to decide when wars end. Until Congress repeals the AUMF, the Commander-in-Chief can’t arrogate to himself the unilateral authority to declare the conflict between the United States and “al-Qaeda and associated forces” at an end.
For example, although active hostilities ceased on September 2, 1945, World War II did not actually end until the Treaty of San Francisco entered into force in 1952. It took Congressional action to ratify the treaty.
Keith G
@burnspbesq: Well then counselor, show me that they’re not factually correct. Put some facts in evidence yourself. It’s nearing my bedtime, but I’ll check back tomorrow.
Redshirt
Jesus Cole U Suk!
burnspbesq
@Keith G:
See comment 240, which appears to have “crossed in the mail” with your 241.
Patricia Kayden
@mk3872: Obama is the Magic Negro, doncha know? Other Congressmen/women play absolutely no role in how the government runs. I guess this will end in 2016 with President Hilary Clinton (at least I hope it will).
Keith G
@burnspbesq: I have trouble with the middle paragraph of your post. you are suggesting the Congress has the ability to micromanage commander in chief activities at a level that has not been experienced in other times in history. Even if this Congress thought it had such abilities I don’t see how it would stand up to the contest of a strong/determined president.
Maybe that is the problem.
agorabum
@askew: Only potential solution is tell Congress that it’s not right and not American to hold people without trial. They won’t give funding for trial, so he’ll have to let them go.
Are some of them then going to eventually blow something up? Probably, since the US imprisoned them for 13+ years w/out trial. Price of justice, price of freedom, better to let 100 guilty go free then to punish the innocent, right?
Not that the land of the brave is scared of this consequence of freedom and liberty.
Jockey Full of Malbec
@burnspbesq:
I did. And I do agree with you about the Ramadan issue.
Unfortunately, the grim bureaucrats’ inevitable answer will be “fine, we’ll only force-feed you after sundown.”
Keith G
@burnspbesq: Let me add, that as time permits I will look into your line of reasoning. Any pointers you can give me to outside opinion would be appreciated as my goal is to not to reinforce my position, but to have the most informed position possible.
MattR
@burnspbesq: Technically, you may be right. But there is something perverse about detaining someone based on the belief that they were involved in the fight against you and then ignoring and/or refusing to act on information that proves your initial belief was incorrect. We are supposed to be better than that, even if international law does not require it.
ruemara
@Mnemosyne: I’m with you on that. Get a petition going on We the People. I’ll sign and share.
@Comrade Jake: And yes, that did happen. All I could think was “cockblocked, again”.
SiubhanDuinne
@Spaghetti Lee:
Pretty much all there is, I fear.
BTW, OT and all, but whatever happened to the strikeout tab? I was all set to strike a line through the words “teabaggers in the” in the blockquote above and then realized that is no longer an option. Da fuh?
burnspbesq
@MattR:
The first indisputable statement in 250 comments.
ChrisNYC
@muddy: Ok, but I’m talking about an IV for nutrition, not lethal injection. Like in the hospital. Glucose or whatever. They are tying them to the “feeding chair” (shiver). They would have to be restrained for a nutrition IV as well. Just saying, if the law is the prison has to stop the strike and can do so forcibly, why is it the most horrible method, the tube? I see it from the strikers’ stand point (your points as to difficult, form of protest, making the captor look at what they are doing, etc) but not from the state’s. I just don’t get it.
fwiw The argument re “it’s not about dying”, i.e. suicide is not my goal so let me continue, has been tried in courts and it has failed. Side effect is enough, per our courts.
different-church-lady
@SiubhanDuinne: less-than sign, DEL, greater-than sign. Same thing to close the tag, except with a slash after the less-than — the same syntax as average hypertext.
SiubhanDuinne
@raven: That does not sadden me.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@SiubhanDuinne: You’ll have to do it manually with “del” inside the angley bracket goodness.
burnspbesq
@SiubhanDuinne:
BTW, OT and all, but whatever happened to the strikeout tab?
Did you try to put the tags in manually?SiubhanDuinne
@different-church-lady: Thanks!
testing testingmuddy
@ChrisNYC: I get you now, I didn’t get what you wanted the IV for. I don’t think it’s enough to do IV glucose, and probably easier to rip out the IV. I imagine the feeding tube is faster. The IV would have to be going all the time.
danah gaz
/glances upthread.
This is all Obama’s fault.
/hides.
Corner Stone
Since force feeding is legal, then by definition it is constitutional. So what’s your problem, Cole?
SiubhanDuinne
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
@burnspbesq:
Back in the olden days there was a leetle tab that did all that hard work. Ah well, I’m retired now so I have plenty of time to play with “less than” and “greater than” signs and angle brackety goodness. Never mind me, I’m just sitting here.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Keith G: I just read through that one. The writer doesn’t really make a very good case to me. For example:
So, as the author concedes, the law as currently written prevents the president from moving detainees. He also concedes that Congress has prevented Obama from moving the detainees by withholding assets. But then he asserts the president could do it anyway. So, it’s against the law and financially impossible. So, how and under what authority can he actually move them?
Maybe he could give them all some secrets from the NSA and let them talk to Greenwald.
danah gaz
@Corner Stone: It’s Ramadan right now so any force feeding of Muslims between sunup and sundown until August 7 may be in violation of their 1st amendment rights – particularly if they are American citizens, and even if they aren’t, it’s still unamerican and inhuman – naturally the latter is my opinion and not law.
That’s aside from the AMA’s take on it: http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/04/30/1940121/ama-force-feeding-gitmo/?mobile=nc
Keith G
@Keith G: I want to give burns examples of stronger presidential action in regards to the AUMF. Burns seems to be of the position that the president cannot unilaterally introduce meaningful change (of course I disagree). Be that as it may, one thing the President could do is to call on Congress in May 2014 to end the current AMUF and make changes in the NDAA. Make it an election issue.
muddy
@danah gaz: No, no, they are going to be respectful and do it after sundown. I’m sure it’s much appreciated.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Corner Stone: Wouldn’t it be better to soupboard them? Call it “enhanced ingestion” if it makes you feel better.
Corner Stone
@danah gaz: I’m not sure I understand. If it’s legal for us to maintain their existence, then what would stop us from continuing that practice? Letting them die doesn’t seem to add up as a viable alternative.
MattR
@SiubhanDuinne: My biggest gripe with the new site is that reloading a page wipes out any text in the comment box. I don’t know how many times I lost a long comment because I refreshed the page to see if anyone had added a comment that affected what I was about to say. I am getting into the habit of copying my comment to the clipboard before hitting refresh, but it still gets me every now and then.
danah gaz
@Corner Stone: Simply stated, I agree with the AMA’s suggested approach. Their stance has already been widely covered, or I’d repeat it here.
Keith G
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): At best the AUMF and NDAA appear to be a tangled mess of conflicting directives and dubious Constitutional alignment.
Keith G
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): At best the AUMF and NDAA appear to be a tangled mess of conflicting directives and dubious Constitutional alignment.
Keith G
Crikey, a hat trick.
There was a recent update to the Android operating system that has left my Nexus 7 acting very weird.
Corner Stone
@Just Some Fuckhead: I think as long as we have legal options to prevent them from committing asymmetric warfare against us then don’t we have the constitutional right to do so?
danah gaz
@Just Some Fuckhead: You made me laugh, but now I feel guilty because I was laughing at torture.
Well played.
Corner Stone
@danah gaz: Well, I guess the AMA has to do what they have to do, but they aren’t tasked with protecting the country against these kinds of threats.
Sometimes politically pragmatic choices have to be made.
danah gaz
@muddy: Did you read that somewhere? If so, do you care to point to me to it?
I did try to look on my own, but this is what I came up with
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2013/0708/Guantanamo-US-judge-condemns-force-feeding-but-declines-detainees-appeal
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/08/obama-urged-halt-ramadan-guantanamo
The first article implies but does not outright say, that some inmates appealed due to Ramadan, which would suggest otherwise.
The second one also implies this, but mainly it basically just says that Obama haz a sad over it. Personally, I think we should all cry for him and sing kumbaya, but I’m just a DFH
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Keith G: THAT I’ll agree with.
danah gaz
@Corner Stone: You do realize you just used the exact same “reasoning” that was used to justify every single jingoistic policy that was put in place since 9/11? You understand this, right?
Fearful people do stupid things.
PS: It doesn’t even make sense in this context, unless you believe somehow that if we stop forcefeeding during Ramadan the terrorists win, but I suspect logic is pretty low on your list of priorities.
Just Some Fuckhead
@danah gaz: What’s not to laugh at? We have imprisoned and tortured people for 13 years who are guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time and no one – including the most powerful person on the planet – can do anything about it. We have our own barbarous Tower of London in a putative democracy and no one can do a fucking thing about it, so much so that we’re now debating whether or not said victims should be allowed to kill themselves to end their miserable existence. Laugh and be glad it isn’t you that has been declared a nonperson.
danah gaz
@Just Some Fuckhead: *sigh*
Fuck you for being so right.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
LOL wut? Posner probably should have pulled up Wikipedia to check his facts before he wrote this. Apparently the Treaty of Versailles and the Paris Peace Accords don’t exist in his world.
Mnemosyne
D’oh! Double-clicked when submitting. FYWP.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: Dude(tte), obviously he was referring to the secession of hostilities and related disengagement behaviors before the paperwork was negotiated and signed many months later.
mai naem
Maybe Sunday President McCain can look at this clip. With his BFF Lindsay. On the other hand they’d probably get boners watching this crap.
You can bet the Muslim world is watching this clip over and over again, like the way FOX kept on running the Rev Jeremiah Wright sermon clips back in 08. And then we wonder why they hate us.
Corner Stone
@danah gaz: No, I’m sorry but I have to strongly dispute that contention. The people at GITMO are the worst of the worst. There are reasons why they are there, and there are reasons why they continue to stay there.
This isn’t excuse making. What would you have us do? Risk the deaths of innocent Americans at the hands of these individuals just so you can grab your chillow tight and get a good night’s sleep?
I think nobody ever wanted this to happen but now that they are there we don’t have any choices or options left open to us. Their religious freedoms, while they should be respected as much as we can, have to be placed secondary to making sure they stay alive and safely placed outside of the mainstream. I, like many pragmatists, genuinely wish this was not the case. We’re just out of options.
muddy
@danah gaz: What I took from the Guardian one was that they said they don’t want to do it during the day, but might “have to” because there are not enough hours in the night to do it all. I was mostly just being snarky.
Keith G
Trolling, trolling, trolling down the riiiveeeer!
Mnemosyne
D’oh! David Woods was replaced … by a guy with the exact same policies.
So my new cry is Fire John W. Smith!
Working on my petition at We the People right now.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Corner Stone: I would submit that any Constitution that allows us to imprison and torture nonpersons indefinitely isn’t worth the shit-stained toilet paper it’s written on.
muddy
@Corner Stone: Worst of the worst? Some of them were innocent of anything and ready to be let go, only it’s not allowed.
Here’s a good link that was brought up earlier in this thread: http://blog.reidreport.com/2013/04/whos-afraid-of-shutting-down-gitmo/
Dick Durbin quoted there saying, “I have said on the floor of the Senate before, and it is worth repeating, that there are people being held at Guantanamo for whom there are no charges. I know one person in particular who is being represented by a pro bono lawyer in Chicago. This man has been held for 7 years at Guantanamo. Originally, he was from Gaza in the Middle East. There was a report that he was dangerous. With that report, he was arrested, taken to Guantanamo, and held. After 6 years, he was notified there were no charges against him; he would be free to go if he could figure out where to go. And that has been the problem. He has been waiting for a year for permission to return to Gaza. He is now 26 years old. From the age of 19 to 26 he has been sitting in Guantanamo. Guantanamo forever? For him, it must feel like forever.”
“Wednesday marks 10 years since the first 20 detainees arrived at the U.S. Naval Base in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. Since then, 779 men have been imprisoned there for years without charge, trial or an opportunity to challenge their detention. They have included boys as young as 12 and men as old as 89.”
Worst of the worst. Bless your heart.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
Yes, and Truman and Nixon obviously took the steps they did without consulting Congress — they just up and informed them that hostilities had ceased and Congress had to go along with it.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Just Some Fuckhead: I was going to go off on a rant, but I read that and you pretty much sobered the conversation right there. That needs a front pagin’.
mk3872
@Patricia Kayden: No chance. This won’t change until a Republican is prez again.
danah gaz
@Corner Stone: “The people at GITMO are the worst of the worst.”
Really? Gosh, well if we only knew what they were charged with, or if they were tried or oh wait…
We shat all over everything we used to stand for and locked a bunch of people away for reasons only people I trust less than even random internet trolls will ever know. I guess we’ll have to take their word for it, whomever they are.
In the meantime, I only hope that one day you wake up to realize how utterly gullible you sound right about now.
Corner Stone
@muddy: Listen. If, indeed, some of these “people” are in fact not a threat to themselves or others then why hasn’t the administration released them? This does not seem to be a very difficult formula. Our leaders need to protect us. We need protection. If we as a nation need to make sure these individuals at GITMO continue to reside there past the 13+ years then I think we should employ all legal, ipso facto constitutional, methods we have at our disposal to make sure they are comforted and secure in their existence there.
If you’re in GITMO then you are guilty of something. There’s not really a coherent argument against this.
danah gaz
@Corner Stone: PS: You’re not a pragmatist. You’re a fool. There’s a rather stark difference.
MattR
@danah gaz:
I think the word you are looking for is troll.
danah gaz
@Corner Stone: ” others then why hasn’t the administration released them?”
hilarious.
A better question might be why would they release innocent people whom they’ve unlawfully disappeared and treated inhumanely, possibly even tortured?
You know terrorists are created right? They don’t just fly out of the arse of muslim unicorns.
Corner Stone
@Just Some Fuckhead: I’m going to have to agree with my good friend NickT above and conclude you aren’t very good at this whole logical argument thing.
Follow along with me. If it is legal then it is Constitutional. End.
danah gaz
@MattR: Fair enough, but maybe a distinction with little difference.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Corner Stone:
To even suggest otherwise would be a red herring!
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: Please read the AMUF and then show me the requirement that Congress permission needed to end it our actions currently underway.
Show me.
Historically, my point holds.
Where is the Prez required to ask Congress to end hostilities?
Inquiring minds….
danah gaz
@Just Some Fuckhead: LOL
I know this because Cheney said so.
Just Some Fuckhead
@danah gaz: Actually, it was burnspbesq but confusion is understandable. Neither of them appears to have any noticeable human qualities.
Keith G
@Keith G: Bottom line: The President of the United States has tremendous legal leeway while operating as Commander in Chief. And, an aggressive president can force the issue in many areas and appropriate even more room to operate.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
Look, I know you’re not really this stupid. I know you’re fully aware that this is the new magical “trillion-dollar platinum coin” that will totally solve all of our problems.
But, here, I’ll play your game — who does Obama negotiate with in order to declare an end to hostilities? Every single one of the cited conflicts included formal negotiations with the other side(s) while active fighting continued. So who does Obama contact for the negotiations?
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
“For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.”
H. L. Mencken
danah gaz
@Just Some Fuckhead: I’m not a fan of either one.
moderateindy
I have no doubt that Obama could do more to try to remedy the GITMO situation, but he’s not the guy that wants it to stay open. As far as Cole is concerned, it was people like him that supported every thing that Bush/Cheney did that allowed a place like GITMO to be put in place. I imagine that not only did he not object to GITMO from the beginning, but was probably a cheerleader. This is what those policies have rendered. Perhaps you should be equally upset with yourself. Obama may have to live with the fallout from previous administration’s policy, but he never actively supported them. You may feel regret over your previous actions, but that does not absolve you of them
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Comrade Jake:
John? Troll his own site? Naaah… he would never do something as lame as that because that isn’t his style. John is calm, clear, concise, detailed and fair in his presentation of a problem and the many important issues that surround it.
John wouldn’t waste his time trolling for cheap thrills and hits.
WJS
@Corner Stone:
Hilarious.
You do realize that a good number of them were put there by accident and by design, all at the same time?
Nicholas Kristof, May 3, 2008
Let the poor bastards go. Jeebus.
Mnemosyne
@WJS:
At a minimum, we need to treat the ones who have been cleared of wrongdoing but can’t be moved as guests, not prisoners. AFAICT, taking those privileges away is what precipitated the current hunger strikes.
danah gaz
@WJS: Thank you. I was already tired of hearing his rationalizations of the monstrous.
That’s the same sh*t that got us into this mess in the first place.
Jesus.
patroclus
I think the real scandal is that the prisoners at GITMO are being held without trial and can’t be transferred because of Congress’ stupidity. There is no evidence that they are being force fed in the manner depicted in the video – I suspect that they are instead sedated, restrained and hooked up to an IV. If done this way, it is certainly not torture, so the post is, at the least, inaccurate and highly misleading. I think that they should get their privileges back and receive an adequate defense, but I think that they should be given nourishment to prevent dying in the U.S.’s custody. It’s a tough call, but you have to choose one of only bad actions so long as they remain imprisoned,on hunger strikes and incapable of transfer.
Corner Stone
@WJS:
I’m pretty sure you must have at least some of that wrong. If they weren’t guilty of something then why did we put them in GITMO? And why are they still there?
This really doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. We’re a nation of laws, we wouldn’t continue to hold innocent men for no reason. And you cite Donald Rumsfeld but he’s been gone for a number of years now. What does he have to do with the men still imprisoned in GITMO in 2013?
Corner Stone
@danah gaz: Wait a second. If you think following the laws of the United States is monstrous then I believe your issue is not with me. We have a framework of legality to encompass what’s going on in GITMO. And by definition, if something is legal then it is Constitutional.
There’s really not a lot we can do with these terrorists. They’ve been deemed that by the executive branch and now they are paying the price for their crimes.
WJS
@Corner Stone:
Ha! Trolled again.
AxelFoley
@Self-Righteous Little White Guy:
Oh, snap!
Mino
@patroclus: I suspect that they are instead sedated, restrained and hooked up to an IV. If done this way, it is certainly not torture, …
LOL I suspect…that is wishful thinking on your part.
Laertes
@Corner Stone:
Good God, man. Where have you been?
Soonergrunt
@Laertes: He’s been trolling you on this board, it would seem.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: This is the key issue. There never will be anyone to negotiate with. That is why neocons love this. Perpetual war and atrocities — until some brave and inventive C-in-C displays the “brass” to end this shit show by saying “Look folks, we have driven down this road as far as we can morally travel (farther in fact). From now on we have to do this differently.”
Dr. Squid
Somehow, I doubt Greenwald would blame Obama if they starved. Say what you will about Greenwald, but at least there’s something beyond the pure nihilistic hate of Limbaa. [/sobchak]
patroclus
@Mino: I wish that someone would please provide a link that has some sort of evidence that torture is being conducted at GITMO.
Soonergrunt
@Dr. Squid: You are assuming facts not in evidence.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
Yes, it’s true, there’s no one to negotiate a truce with, and that’s why Posner’s “solution” is just him jerking off to a trillion-dollar platinum coin.
Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
@NickT and others have basically said…..If they are of sound mind and uncoerced they should be allowed to starve themselves as a way out of the situation.
1) No one in jail or prison, particularly where there is no end date in sight, is EVER uncoerced. There is a perpetual and inherent imbalance of power in the favor of the prison authority.
2) Why put the onus of their relief on the prisoner–the person with the least amount of power in this situation? I think it’s an easy lazy-boy solution to propose from where we all (myself included) sit. The responsibility to free them isn’t theirs…it’s ours. Our representative government is holding them illegally. Our representative government should do the right thing.
Now, as to how to make that happen….I won’t even pretend to guess. But I’m not going to give up on the discussion or stop pressuring both the President and Congress to fix the problem. They can if they want to and they will only want to if the people put enough pressure on them. It’s us. We’re the responsible parties and we’re the solution. It’s just that that is never the easy solution. It’s hard damn work. Maybe we’re just not cut out for it. On my dark days, I think that we aren’t capable of self-governance and this thing with Gitmo makes me feel that way.
But can we please stop wasting time talking about the ways in which we can allow the prisoners to “escape” through self-destruction? I don’t agree with force feeding but I don’t think putting the onus on them is in any way an appropriate solution to the problem.
Dave
huh, nasogastric tube feeding. Completely normal medical procedure performed thousands of times a day in US hospitals. Definitely not torture. As a resident at the VA, we had vets who would place their own nasogastric tubes.
Mnemosyne
@Dave:
Let’s say for a minute that you’ve been imprisoned for some reason. The guards take you out of your cell, restrain you, pour hot wax on your crotch, and start ripping it off along with big clumps of hair.
Some women voluntarily go to salons to have professionals do that to them, so does that mean that it’s automatically not torture if it’s done in a prison context to someone who is not allowed to refuse?
ardent
Au Pairs are the most relevant band working today, and they disbanded in the early 80s.
lojasmo
@socoolsofresh:
Actually, Mos is a very accomplished actor, and has appeared in nearly thirty feature films.
Also, if you have any medical knowlege, or had seen one or two (hundred) nasogastric tubes placed, you would know that is a very well tolerated procedure, and that Def is absolutely playing it up…or is the worlds most squeamish individual, which I doubt.
lojasmo
@Keith G:
Would it surprise you to learn he already did that?
Parrotlover77
It amazes me how quickly and easily supposed liberals can jump on the “let ’em die” bandwagon and then treat those who think otherwise that their opinion doesn’t matter. If I didn’t know better (and maybe I don’t), I would swear some commentors and FPers are happy this is all happening so they can use the situation as a political weapon against those they don’t like.
Forced feeding sucks. You know what sucks worse? Dying. Fuck the “if you are of sound mind” crowd. Really, fuck you. You ever experience a suicide of somebody close to you, perhaps a family member? Guess what? I have. It fucking sucks. Suicide is a disease. The self-starvation is a cry for help, not a sound rational realization that you are terminally ill, in constant pain, and ready for the end. These people are hopeless, depressed. I’ve been depressed. It sucks! But it’s not the end. Just because these people were wrongly imprisoned doesn’t change that fact.
But instead of calling your representatives every fucking day, going to protests, writing the president, writing editorials, talking about the issue over and over, trying to sway minds, exercising your right to vote to change this issue, you know, that difficult thing known as participating in democracy thing, what do you fuckers do? You stupid spoiled, fat, piece of shit American fucks start loudly proclaiming LET EM DIE IF THEY WANT TO IT’S HOPELESS, bitch about the botsplainers, then go on to have a wonderfully gluttonous meal. FUCK YOU. These people need help. They need to be let go. And, yes, they need to be kept alive so they can one day taste freedom again.