Apparently I am still insufficiently cynical for current conditions, because I thought there would be a little more media attention paid to the Electronic Privacy Information Center‘s petition to the Supreme Court. Latest I can find comes from the Washington Post Wonkblog:
Every few months, the Obama administration asks the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to order Verizon (and, presumably, other phone companies) to continue turning phone calling records over to the National Security Agency. Under the rules of the FISC, Verizon’s customers—the people whose private information is being disclosed—are not allowed to challenge the orders.
But the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a Washington-based advocacy group, has a plan to challenge the spying program: Ask the Supreme Court to step in. Ordinarily, it takes years of litigation in lower courts before an issue can reach the nation’s highest court. But EPIC has gone straight to the top, arguing in a Monday filing that the unusual structure of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court gives victims of the NSA’s program no other choice.
The Supreme Court has the power to issue an order called a “writ of mandamus” to deal with lower courts that overstep their legal authority. This type of order is only supposed to be used in “exceptional circumstances.” But EPIC argues that the NSA’s phone records program is exactly the kind of situation that merits the Supreme Court’s intervention….
James Risen at the NYTimes covered it over the holiday weekend:
… The suit is the latest in a series of legal challenges to the N.S.A.’s domestic spying operations that have been filed over the past month after disclosures by a former N.S.A. contractor, Edward J. Snowden. Based on a document leaked by Mr. Snowden, The Guardian revealed early last month that the FISA court had issued an order in April directing Verizon Business Network Services to turn over all of the telephone records for its customers to the N.S.A. The secret court order was also published by The Guardian.
Within days of the disclosure of the court order, the American Civil Liberties Union filed suit in federal court in New York. Separately, Larry Klayman, a conservative lawyer who runs a group called Freedom Watch, filed a class-action lawsuit in federal court in Washington on behalf of Verizon customers…
The new challenges come after the failure of a legal campaign against the N.S.A.’s domestic spying operations during the administration of President George W. Bush. A series of lawsuits were brought against an N.S.A. program of wiretapping without warrants soon after the existence of the program was revealed by The New York Times in December 2005.
Those lawsuits were against the telecommunications companies that cooperated with the N.S.A. program, but Congress later gave the companies retroactive legal immunity when it overhauled the nation’s national security wiretapping law in 2008. Those lawsuits also suffered in federal courts because it was difficult for the plaintiffs to prove that they had actually been spied upon by the N.S.A., since the domestic spying operations were secret and the courts refused to force the government to release any documents to reveal the targets of the surveillance.
But the new lawsuits benefit from the publication of the secret court order concerning Verizon, providing evidence that the records of Verizon customers have been collected. The American Civil Liberties Union, in its lawsuit, argues that it has legal standing to bring its case because the group is a Verizon customer.
More background at NYMag:
… The 11-member FISA court was created in 1978 to prevent wiretapping abuses by the government, but its powers were expanded six years ago as part of an effort to provide judicial oversight of intelligence operations. Since then, the court has handed down decisions that shaped the government’s surveillance powers, though it only hears the government’s side of the case, appeals are rare, and the vast majority of its rulings are secret.
Sources familiar with the classified rulings tell the Wall Street Journal that in the mid-2000s, the FISA court began to reinterpret the word “relevant,” allowing the NSA to collect phone information from most Americans. The Patriot Act allows to FBI to collect “tangible things,” such as “records,” from businesses if they’re believed to be “relevant to an authorized investigation” into foreign intelligence activities. Based on the idea that investigations into national security threats are different from regular criminal investigations, the FISA court has set precedents on privacy issues that are broader than those established by the Supreme Court. Thus, bits of phone data from innocent Americans may be “relevant” to a terrorism investigation in bulk…
karen
Since Roberts can appoint the people in FISA, I don’t see this going anywhere.
LosGatosCA
@karen:
Since the American people generally don’t give a shit about their own privacy (see social media), they generally don’t care about the rights of anyone accused of a crime, and they don’t even care about their own rights because they don’t envision themselves ever being suspects in a crime or accused of a crime. And every politician and judge knows it.
That’s why this won’t go anywhere.
RobertDSC-PowerMac G5 Dual
How are we “victims” of whatever it is the NSA has been accused of?
BruinKid
My Ron Paul friends on Facebook are flipping out over the fact that Adam Kokesh has just been arrested. His girlfriend just posted this on Facebook:
They’re complaining that police showed up with armored vehicles and swat gear, but sheesh, what did you expect when you constantly rant and rave about starting an armed “revolution”, and everyone with a brain knows you’re heavily armed, and you just posted a video showing yourself blatantly breaking a law you don’t like?
NickT
@BruinKid:
Does this mean we can take you off sniper watch?
? Martin
@karen: Yeah, it won’t. The description of the program, which FISA is surely to reiterate, is that while the NSA collects the data for preservation/latency purposes, they aren’t allowed to look at the data until they get a specific court order. It’s going to be difficult to argue that some harm is being done by data that, at least by policy, isn’t allowed to be looked at.
So, somewhere in here someone is going to have to provide some suggestion that the NSA is cheating on this. The physical possession of the data just isn’t material in a digital age because possession isn’t necessary for access, as illustrated by the other program that GG reported on.
BruinKid
@NickT: I hope so. :-)
MikeJ
The FISA court had never in its history said no to a warrant until Bush took office. Even they wouldn’t allow what he wanted to do.
Yatsuno
Jeebus. Is there anything Dubya didn’t fuck up?
FlipYrWhig
I say, bring it. If you’re actually concerned about privacy and surveillance, this strikes me as a good rock to throw. Use whatever you’ve got. Make the policymakers keep explaining and justifying themselves. Sure, it probably won’t work, but stomping virtual feet or balling virtual fists in the blogosphere definitely won’t, so let’s see a thousand flowers bloom, including this one.
Roger Moore
@BruinKid:
Everyone knows that the armored vehicles and swat gear are there to deal with those dangerous blahs, not honest white folk. It’s an outrage that somebody should be arrested for promising to carry through on our founding fathers’ principles of watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants. If the government would just respect the 2nd
ComandmentAmendment right to own a massive arsenal, none of this would have happened.Spaghetti Lee
@BruinKid:
Oy…with people like that leading the charge it’s no wonder civil libertarianism is seen as the political equivalent of the loony bin.
max
Apparently I am still insufficiently cynical for current conditions
If you know your history, just treat it as a sufficiently close substitute for living in say, the People’s Republic of Czechoslovakia, albeit much richer. (If that’s too leftwing, use Pinochet or Franco – when a system goes authoritarian/totalitarian, the ideology is different but the policing system works near identically) Figure what would happen in that situation, and then estimate the comparable situation here, and then start your prediction baselines there.
because I thought there would be a little more media attention paid to the Electronic Privacy Information Center‘s petition to the Supreme Court.
We’ve gone through ‘we don’t do that’, ‘that isn’t true’, ‘everything we’re doing is fine’ and ‘Snowden is working for Emmanuel Goldstein’ and now they’re going for ‘pretend nothing happened’. Nominal baseline would be to expect this to be quashed. I think the Supremes might take it up because we don’t *appear* to be that far gone, although we might be. Hard to say until years after the fact.
(Everyone was happy when the Army forced out Muburak, and forgot that the Army never left, they just let some elections take place. Then they were shocked and surprised that the army moved when the system was breaking down under a non-functioning democracy. What they get for getting their news from cable TV. The army never let go, and nothing will be normal there until they do.
Likewise, here it’s always 2003 and ‘watch what you say’ and don’t be like the Dixie Chicks even when the moment seems to have passed. The anti-terrorist regime instituted post-9/11 never went away, it just got quieter, and the usual suspects all support it. This moment necessitated they ‘protect the program’ and boy howdy, have they.)
max
[‘Patience.’]
BruinKid
@Roger Moore: The darndest thing is I met her through my former neighbors, who are Persian Muslims and HUGE Ron Paul supporters. They started off liking him because the Dick Cheney neocons were hinting at invading Iran, and because of marijuana, but then were brainwashed into all this austerity and gold standard bullshit and Second Amendment stuff as well. Oh, and they also believe in 9/11 trutherism now. SMH. Kokesh’s girlfriend, though, is white.
@Spaghetti Lee: Talked to Dave Weigel at Netroots Nation about Kokesh. Weigel loves libertarians, but said Kokesh just simply scared him. He’s that out there.
The Other Chuck
Verizon could send a text to every single subscriber it has, telling them their phone records are being requested. With a little more programming, they could include the numbers of their local congresscritters. Something tells me they value government contracts more than actually putting up a fight.
? Martin
@The Other Chuck:
What is it they’re fighting?
Again, if we take the government that they are following the policies they say, the NSA is functionally no different than an offsite backup by Verizon, something they almost certainly contract with another company to do, also with the very same policy that the backup data isn’t also being rifled through.
Cacti
@BruinKid:
So, when will Cole give her a front page gig? Sounds like she’d fit right in.
magurakurin
@MikeJ:
Indeed, and I’d bet dollars to donuts that what they wanted to do was listen to the Kerry Campaign’s phone calls. So, they did it anyway without a warrant.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Yatsuno: Congress deserve an equal amount of blame for that.
BruinKid
She just posted this update in response to a bunch of her friends asking WTF just happened.
Yes. “Peace activist”. I think she has “fear-of-not-angering-you-by-intimidation” confused with “peace”. Though if she’s correct about the police not letting her use the bathroom, does she have a lawsuit on her hands?
magurakurin
@Yatsuno:
ummm, no.
And maybe one of the worst that is still with us is Gitmo. Bush doesn’t get the blame and scorn he deserves. punk that he is, he just stays in his hidey hole. Same as Saddam. They will become best buds in Hell, I’m sure.
Cacti
@BruinKid:
Like just about everything pertaining to the law, it depends.
Not enough information to go on at this point.
magurakurin
@magurakurin:
jesus. I sure fucked up those block quotes. I am so bush league.
? Martin
@BruinKid:
What part of the rest of her statement strikes you as she providing a reasonable assessment of what happened? She’s gone deep into the Obama the Tyrant end of the pool. Why single that one claim out as neutral and credible?
JWL
Yeah, you are insufficiently cynical.
By my lights, at least 20 years worth.
But you’ve got brains, and that’s all it takes to catch up.
Cacti
@? Martin:
They may well have kept her from using the bathroom.
However, if they were executing a search warrant, depending on what they were looking for, they may have had very valid reasons for not wanting someone slinking off to the toilet (universally preferred spot for incriminating evidence disposal).
The prophet Nostradumbass
@BruinKid: The comments on that article are hilarious.
Yatsuno
@magurakurin: And your attributions. I’d say moar coffee but it’s not THAT early in Nihon!
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Hey if they’re gonna blame Obama for everything turnabout is fair play.
NickT
@BruinKid:
Such peace activists, who go around loading guns in public and yapping about the final revolution!
? Martin
@Cacti: And combining these two:
Also sounds like she refused the leave the room until a warrant was produced.
Now, the news reports on this do verify that law enforcement shut down the area, so I won’t dismiss the flashbangs, breaking in the door, helicopters, etc. That also sounds like overkill to me, but then I don’t know much more about this guy other than he sounds like a SUPREME asshole, and 2nd amendment absolutist. Oh, and he called for the public overthrow of the US government in 2014. So, there’s that.
NickT
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
Indeed. I was amused to learn that they consider Dancing Dave to be a liberal.
amk
@BruinKid: Didn’t the ron paul spawn advocate drone strike against domestic criminals ? How do the paultards reconcile that with their current poutrage against a publicity seeking gun nut’s actions?
NickT
@amk:
It’s well known in libertarian circles that only “those people” are domestic criminals.
amk
@BruinKid:
Hilarious.
? Martin
@NickT: Especially as more of the white supremacy stuff is being revealed.
NickT
@? Martin:
Indeed – and you can trace it back into Ron Paul’s newsletters in a particularly virulent and repulsive form. Then there’s the persistence with which white supremacists of one grubby sort or another appear as donors or friends of helpers of the Pauls. There’s a point where coincidence or ignorance just can’t be taken seriously as a defense.
NickT
@amk:
Hmm, so, when does young Master Kokesh propose to dissolve the United States exactly?
? Martin
@NickT:
July 4, 2014. Exactly:
amk
@NickT: Wonder how his neighbors feel about having these dangerous nutjobs amidst them? Constantly looking over their shoulders hoping and praying the nutters don’t lose their shit and start shootin’ ’em up?
NickT
@? Martin:
The American Revolutionary Army?
Do the other two members know what Lil Adam has in mind?
TheMightyTrowel
OT: I’m going to be on the radio on Sunday night. First time ever recording live which is a bit scary actually. If anyone’s interested, I’ll see if I can post the audio once it’s aired – ABC is usually really good about internationally available streaming.
NickT
@TheMightyTrowel:
Think of it as a trowel run…
TheMightyTrowel
@NickT: Ba dum dummmmmmmmmmmmmm
NickT
@TheMightyTrowel:
I guess I better stop digging, eh? Still, at least my poor pun had groanworthiness in spades.
amk
@NickT: grrroan.
TheMightyTrowel
@NickT: You’ve left this comment section in ruins.
rda909
@? Martin: “and 2nd amendment absolutist.” I beg to differ. I am a 2nd amendment absolutist, and I suspect most people here are as well even if they don’t realize it, while Adam Kokesh and his Republican/NRA brethren are the ones who are anti-Constitution.
If one actually reads the Constitution, the “right to bear arms” is clearly stated to be only in the service of a “militia” as it says directly in the 2nd amendment itself. The Constitution then also clearly defines “militias” as being in service of elected governments (either state of federal, essentially the National Guards of today), and even explicitly states that “Insurrection” against the U.S. government should be stopped with force if necessary:
http://portsmouth-nh.patch.com/groups/stephen-d-clarks-blog/p/bp–interpreting-the-second-amendment
Despite his insane ramblings to the contrary, Kokesh is clearly anti-American and I hope they come down hard on him. He and his libertarian/republican friends can ramble on and on about the Constitution, but any careful reading of the document shows they are simply anarchists and anti-American.
There’s no basis in the Constitution whatsoever that the 2nd amendment means a bunch of beer-bellied selfish pricks, who get winded putting on their pants in morning, should be allowed to have unlimited guns to fight their own elected government. In fact, the Constitution says just the opposite. So again, I’m a 2nd amendment absolutist who has never owned a gun and votes for candidates who promote the most strict gun restrictions possible. Please join me in being a 2nd amendment absolutist and educating as many people as possible what the 2nd amendment actually says and means.
raven
Sleepy buncha dopes.
Linda Featheringill
@raven:
I know. Nobody is up and at em yet. Must be nice.
jeffreyw
Local TV story about a dog at the shelter where Mrs J volunteers.
Linda Featheringill
@raven:
How is Morning Joe today?
kindness
Well, it might actually do something because just like the push to go to war with Iraq, we the people were sold a bill of goods that turned out to be bogus.
It wasn’t the need for data that was bogus but the extent that our Presidents have taken it.
And yea, I know that our intelligence agencies hate having a bit in their mouths but damn it all, they need a bit in their mouths. They don’t even see that they’ve overstepped the bounds of a ‘free’ people. Now do I have faith in this Supreme Court to put a brake on it? Hell no. If it was a get out the vote operation from liberals I could see it but this is what the conservatives on this court think of as freedom.
cvstoner
Yes, and I’m sure that the Robert’s court will be all over that.
Omnes Omnibus
@cvstoner: Yeah, I tend to think that, if plaintiffs with standing can be found*, it would be better to let the lawsuits work their way through the system over a course of years. With luck, we will have a better Supreme Court and a better chance at a good result. This might be a case where justice delayed is better than justice denied.
*This “if” is, of course, the big problem and one of the reason EPIC is doing what it is doing. I just don’t hold out a lot of hope for this Court coning down with a decision that is good for privacy rights.
MomSense
@jeffreyw:
Such a beautiful story!
Linda Featheringill
From Dkos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeDm2PrNV1I
Remarkable child explains Egyptian political situation.
raven
@Linda Featheringill: J&M are not there.
Miki
Lawfare has a discussion today re: SCOTUS’ statutory and constitutional authority to hear the petition and why it won’t exercise it. (Short answer – there are other similar suits pending in lower courts, making EPIC’s petition for extraordinary relief unnecessary.)
cvstoner
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yup. But, unfortunately, Roberts is going to be around for a long, long time, and there’s no telling the amount of damage he will be inflicting over the next generation or so.
karen
@BruinKid:
Police can arrest blah Professors for “breaking in” into their own home so if she’s white then I’d say it’s a possibility.
karen
@rda909:
Fixed.
burnspbesq
The filing of a motion under Supreme Court Rule 20.1 is the longest of long shots, and I suspect that EPIC knows that. The fact that the press release was issued a day ahead of the court filing is a tell. The whole things screams “publicity stunt.” Which doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth doing.