I know I have asked so much of you all the last 24 hours, and I apologize to Sarah for stepping on another thread for the second time in 12 hours or so, but would you all do one more thing for me?
Please send happy thoughts to my sister Devon and my brother Seth, who I think may actually be taking this harder than me. It was my sister’s dog, Kiwi, that killed Tunch, and it was my brother who was watching her and brought her to my house, and both of them keep calling me crying and blaming themselves, and it is just killing me.
My sister is the sweetest human being I have ever met (if Lily were human, she’d be Devon), and has a heart so big that it makes the new and improved Grinch’s heart still look ten sizes too small. She rescued Kiwi, a pit bull mix, because that is what she does. She rescues animals that are deemed irredeemable, loves them to death, rehabs then, and then re-homes them. Kiwi is, by most accounts, a very sweet dog. I have no doubt in my mind that she had no intention to kill Tunch, but went out to play with him, stomped near him, he clawed her, and she killed him. Right after it happened (and this really only took a minute to happen), she ran around the side of the house wagging her tail, completely unaware what she had done. When we discovered what happened, I am ashamed to admit that I went for my chef’s knife and was intent on killing Kiwi, but my brother had the good sense to get her out of there. I would never have forgiven myself if I had done that, and I am really embarrassed that that kind of streak lives in me and I would never have forgiven myself, but I was in a white hot rage of shock and grief and had murder on my mind.
I personally am in the “ALL PIT BULLS MUST DIE” camp, but my sister is not, and she is just devastated and inconsolable. Kiwi has never hurt anything before, but like I have told Devon a million times that pit bulls can be great 99.999% of the time, but they are built to kill and it is the .001% when they do something like this that makes them a menace. Devon had to pick Tunch’s claws out of Kiwi’s face last night, but Kiwi felt nothing because that’s how the muzzle on these dogs is built- big, fleshy, and able to consume a bite and a claw.
Basically, we are talking about two defects in mammals that led to this tragedy- my sister’s big heart and belief she can love the genetics out of a dog, and a dog who was just doing what she was bred to do.
My brother blames himself for bringing Kiwi here, because I have never liked the dog, and as soon as he showed up I told him to put her outside because I had the preservation of my pack in mind. I had just a few minutes earlier seen Tunch sleeping on his bed in the spare bedroom, and had no idea he was outside. We put Kiwi out, and in a minute, it was too late.
Please, no moralizing about what happened, as I firmly believe the dog should be put down, but have no say so what Devon does. I have called her multiple times, and she is just a hot mess (as is my brother), and I have told her I forgive her but what I will not be able to forgive is if Kiwi does this to another animal, or FSM forbid, someone’s toddler. I hope she does the right thing and puts the dog down, because if they do this once they will do it again, but again, I have no say.
But back to the point. Please send some positive energy to my sister and brother, both animal lovers, both wonderful people, and really, both are very responsible pet owners. This is one of those awful things that just happened, and while I am making strides towards recovery, I am so upset about Devon and Seth, both of whom can’t sleep or eat and blame themselves. The last two cries I’ve had have not been about Tunch, but my Devon and Seth.
I love my animals, but there is nothing more important to me than my brother and sisters and parents, so please send some magic rays their way. They really are good people and they are grieving probably harder than I am.
Thanks.
Cassidy
Oh boy. This is going to be a wild ride.
ETA: Again, my condolences to you and your family. This whole thing sucks, dude.
Linda Featheringill
Was just having a conversation with the daughter unit about how upset your brother and sister must feel. Oh, my.
No words of wisdom here, just good wishes.
ETA: Regarding your sister: It’s a bitch when you have to come to terms with the reality that your love can’t cure everything. It’s hard.
MoeLarryAndJesus
You’re setting some sort of Indoor Reasonableness Record here, JC. I wish there were more like you.
kdaug
Ain’t a believer in (ETA: the existence of) the irredeemable, personally, but there are lines that can’t be crossed.
Best to your kin, John, but take care of yourself first.
MaryRC
Just to let you know, I have been thinking about your brother and sister and how bad they must feel about this, and I’m sure a lot of us have. Just a bad situation all around and I’m sorry it caused more pain for you and your family. You all must be exhausted and I hope you can get a good rest.
Mystical chick
Oh John, I can’t imagine how you all must feel. Sending your sister with the big heart and your brother with the heavy heart (and you, with a lonely heart) all the love and high vibrational energy I can call upon. (And it’s a lot because, well, I’m a professional. Heh)
You will all find peace and go on. (Hugs to you all.)
Mothra1
Those circumstances make this even more difficult. So sorry for all of you and what you’re going through.
I worry about any dog that is capable of this kind of attack.
Mystical chick
Oh John, I can’t imagine how you all must feel. Sending your sister with the big heart and your brother with the heavy heart (and you, with a lonely heart) all the love and high vibrational energy I can call upon. (And it’s a lot because, well, I’m a professional. Heh)
You will all find peace and go on. (Hugs to you all.)
Yatsuno
My brother has his face bitten by a pit bull when he was 2 years old. Up until that point the owner (my father’s cousin) said the dog had never been aggressive towards anyone ever. I know there are pit bull owners on here. Pits have triggers, and it is the unpredictability of the trigger that makes them dangerous.
@Violet: John’s family is tight. That makes the forgiving thing really easy. But it’ll take time.
John O
Been thinking of them from the get-go, John. Didn’t realize the perp was a pit-bull mix, and once again I agree with you 100%.
You’re being way too hard on yourself. We sometimes, and very naturally, defend those we love with a vicious streak.
Like the pit bull, it’s built in.
Violet
Oh, John, I’ve been thinking of your brother and sister. This has to be so hard on your whole family. Sending good thoughts in your direction. Light and love to Devon and Seth. And John, you’re a wonderful person and an awesome brother.
Emdee
Been thinking about them since the first post. Much love to all the Coles and their critters, even those whose futures may be short but still full of love.
B Lehmann
I am sorry that this happened to your family. It truly was a tragic accident. Be kind to each other.
Mystical chick
FYWP and sorry for the double comments.
wuzzat
Oh, John, I was just thinking that your sister must be a wreck over this, and it completely slipped my mind that your brother was the one watching her dog. When something like this happens, it’s too easy to get totally caught up in your own grief, so I respect the hell out of you for this post — you have a very kind heart.
I wish your siblings, and you, and the whole Cole clan, peace and better days to come.
edited to add: Also, I hope your dad is doing okay. I wish him a speedy recovery and the ability to keep his extremities away from the pointy things in life.
pat
Wow. This is really a terrible situation, and you seem to be all over the lot on what to do, but one thing stood out as I read this:
I feel for your sister, and I love that she is willing to rescue problem dogs, but I think you have hit on the point. If Kiwi is unpredictable, there is no telling what she might do the next time.
Again, I am so sorry for your loss.
ira-NY
Wishing the whole Cole Clan strength and peace.
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
You’re a mensch, Cole. I wouldn’t want to be any of you right now – it just sucks all around. Hang in there.
Gin & Tonic
I also was thinking of your sister from very early on, but those thoughts didn’t seem appropriate at the time, and would have gotten lost in some of those threads anyway. But I’m glad you posted this follow-up. I’m sure she feels awful, and I hope you all can work through this amicably.
Elie
I send love and hugs to Devon and your brother.
Unfortunately, I believe that the dog must be put down. It is a confirmed cat killer and probably would do other animals — perhaps small children too. I love all animals but this is un-fixable. Yes, anguish now, but imagine the anguish of later events if this is given a pass…Nope.
Your sister and brother deserve good thoughts and energy– Kiwi too. but Kiwi cannot be adopted out in my opinion.
Had to say that.. Wish you and your family the best always
Cassidy
Not that this is the same, but it was a poorly taken care of animal that finally caused the irreparable rift between my sister and me. She had a Siberian that was sick and in pain and very aggressive. It ruled the house stealing food off plates and counters and snapping at the smaller dogs and people. During the brief period we lived with her after I got out of the Army, it broke into our room (I was still in Colorado) and killed my wife’s bird. The final straw was when it bit one of the kids and we had a large blowup. Not much later after we left it died; it should have been put out of its misery long before that.
Anya
No one should be moralizing about Tunch’s tragic death. Your sister was not at fault. Your brother is not to blame. It was a tragic incident that no one expected. I’m really sorry you all had to go through that horrific experience.
Sending your way hugs and positive thoughts. John, Devon and Seth, please be kind to yourselves.
MomSense
I am so sorry that you are all suffering right now and do send peace and patience and love to your family.
Oh this really sucks about the pitbull. I have sympathy for trying to save precious sentient beings and my dear Bandit barely survived a severe pit bull mauling–but he never fully recovered. He was a magnificent dog and I know that he saved the lives of my two boys and my niece and nephew by putting himself between the pitbull and the children.
It is an issue that I haven’t made peace with all these years later so I am sending extra love and patience to your sister and brother in law–and to you as you all try and sort through this.
Hungry Joe
Oh, my, the pain just intensifies. They love you, John, and they loved Tunch, and I can’t even imagine. Poor souls, both of them. All the very best.
I’ve been taking my dog — a sweet beta or gamma dog only because there aren’t more submissive designations — to the dog park for several years, and she’s been attacked just twice, both times by pit-bull mixes. Now, whenever I spot one that looks like it even might have some pit, I take her to the far side of the park or take her home. Enough.
Jerzy Russian
I know people love their pets, but it makes no sense to me to keep a vicious dog around the house. I hope your sister does the right thing. I hope she can forgive herself.
Keith
I agree with the notion of putting the dog down, and I had a pit bull until recently (ran off and likely got stolen). I used to leave mine alone in the house with my cats, but he was also around them from the time he was a puppy (and it helps that he was a blue pit, which are generally bred for show rather than for fighting or being guard dogs), so he was used to them being the boss. I would never, ever have even kept him if he was a rescue, as the odds that a rescue was bred to fight and/or kill is pretty high. The other issue was that my cats were conversely raised around a dog, so they weren’t afraid of them. That ultimately became their downfall, as two of them liked to jump fences, and there’s an aggressive dog one house over. Out of my current 3 kitties, one is an avowed indoor cat who rarely likes to go out (and is not able to jump a fence). The other two, I got from this web site, and one is both too fat to jump and HIGHLY aggressive towards dogs, while the other is a jumper but extremely timid and would hightail it inside at the mere sound of a dog (I’ve seen that happen several times). These I feel good about their safety for those reasons, but I’d also likely never get another dog (ESPECIALLY a terrier, which is what a pit bull is) while I have them…just too stressful for them.
La Caterina (Mrs. Johannes)
The hardest thing may be for them to forgive themselves. Then they will have to take stock and do the right thing.
I understand that it’s very hard to set boundaries when you’re a rescuer. Bless Devon for trying. Will add them both to the prayer list.
Billy K.
Been wanting to say something, but I’m just so upset about the whole thing. I don’t comment much any more, but I used to, and I never stopped reading daily. As silly as it is, I feel like I know you and your pets. Tunch, especially has been a part of most of my days for 7 or 8 years now.
I thought after a few days I’d have some nice, comforting words, but still, I have no idea what to say. I’m so sorry. That’s all I can come up with.
As far as forgiveness, I’ll leave that up to the man with a bigger heart than mine – you.
Botsplainer
John, I urge you to speak with a healing professional immediately.
I agree with you in general on pit rescues (oils properly socialized are probably OK), but you are undoubtedly really feeling raw, and will for some time. Or if you want to, I’ll talk to you – just zap me an email.
Just don’t let this fester – it has every potential of cleaving your family in half.
Chris Grrr
Alright, then, your bro and sis are in my prayers.
I’m relieved, though, to agree – without hesitation – with your desired outcome for the dog.
amk
It’s a sucky, no-wins here situation for everyone. Heart vs Head thingy.
AnnaN
Sending good thoughts your siblings’ way. However, I don’t know that it is right to condemn a dog to death for killing a cat. I would, in the heat of the moment barehandedly kill anything that killed one of my cats but I think, as time went by, I could not extrapolate that to a threat against humans. If it had been a rabbit that Kiwi killed I don’t think you would believe it to be threat against people. This has been a horrible tragedy and my eyes tear up for everyone involved but Kiwi was, just being a dog that hadn’t been trained to leave cats alone.
I am so so sorry.
Voncey
There may be pit bull rescue organizations out there that can find a suitable home for the dog — perhaps in a place like Best Friends. I hope she’ll look into in and the dog can be saved. I’m so sorry for all your family.
katienorth
Much love to you and your family John. My fam includes two different JRTs who have killed other pets w/in their own packs, so I kind of understand your perspective about how specific breeds just shouldn’t be regarded as pets. It’s a mad, fucked up world where we all struggle to do our best. Clearly, both your sister and brother would have done things differently if they had any idea Kiwi would kill Tunch. My heart goes out to all of you & i’m sending you huge hugs of love and sympathy. It’s been a brutal weekend and though I almost never comment, I really value this community. You help make this world a better place.
Kropadope
Glad for your sister that she has such a caring brother.
Roberta
I’m de-lurking for just this one post.
I learned at a very early age what you are just learning now – never ever forget our beloved pets baser nature. When I was 8 my cat ate my bird. When I was 11 my dog bit a friend. Recently, in an unguarded moment my terrified-of-thunderstorms-can’t-tell-the-difference-between-television-sounds-and-whats-outside-dog killed a groundhog by shaking it to death. I know they are our loved ones and they are family but sometimes they just go back to nature for an unguarded moment and there really isn’t much we can do. Love them, forgive them and watch them that much closer.
I am so very sorry for your loss. I lost my beloved fat-boy during Sandy – couldn’t find a vet with power in time.
RareSanity
John,
I just read through the weekend’s posts and I was absolutely floored…I’m not one of the more memorable of commentariat, but I have been reading, and commenting on this blog since 2007.
I’m not the best with comforting words, but I wanted to say that I’m so sorry for your loss. This is the absolute first time, that I have ever felt an actual emotional loss, that is attributed to someone, or their pet, I’ve never met. But reading through your posts, I had a genuine, deep feeling of loss…in addition to a tremendous sense of sadness as it related to you.
I’m really sorry about all of this John…it really sucks. Really.
I’m going to stop here, before I put my foot in my mouth (as I’m known to do), but be well brother…I just wish there were more that I could do for you.
kdaug
@pat:
My point, too. Love and care should be the default, but tolerance can have consequences.
I have no doubt that Kiwi doesn’t know that she did anything wrong. But if next time that 30 lb playmate is a kid, those consequences…
Ella in New Mexico
If she uses this as a wake up call, and implements a more controlled and restricted environment for this dog, there is no reason to put her down. The problem was that she never truly considered just how deeply ingrained Kiwi’s instinct to kill is, nor took proper steps to ensure that she never be allowed to be unrestrained, or with a handler who also maintained strict control over the dog, aka, your brother. Kiwi has a right to exist, and you know as well as anyone, she only did what dogs like her are bred to do. It was her humans who failed Kiwi, and to be honest, Tunch.
We had a male Fox Terrier we inherited from our deceased grandparents as kids. One of those retarded dogs that will just bolt out the front door and run down the street like a maniac if ever given the opportunity. We all knew was bred to kill small animals–our parents repeatedly instructed us to keep him away from our cats and, particularly, our guinea pig, Pete, who we liked to remove from the safety of of his cage and play with. The cats were smart and always got away from the dog, no problem. But like the dumb kids we were, we also occasionally let Pete enjoy an hour or two on our lawn, munching the delicious green grass. The terrier would see him out the window and go completely ape-shit, barking and running back and forth to all the doors, trying to get out. We laughed our asses off at him because in a strange way, while we knew how frustrated he was, we actually kind of admired his wired instinct to rid his environment of pesky rodents.
One day,while Pete was sweetly and obliviously munching away in guinea pig bliss, one of us failed to latch the screen door sufficiently. The terrier figured out the weakest link, nosed it open and bolted outside and made a beeline to Pete. He snapped his neck in his jaws, and in a matter of seconds he was dead. He then tossed him around like a rag doll just for fun while we watched from yards away , helpless.
In our grief, we wanted to kill that stupid dog. But the truth was, it was our fault the whole thing happened. We certainly watched the terrier more closely after that. But John–Shit happens. Demanding your sister put her dog to sleep could quite possibly fracture your family relationship for a very long time. And even the loss of such a sweet boy as Tunch is not worth losing your sister, or even your brother.
Just let her do what she feels is the best thing to do, and move on.
metricpenny
John, You’re all in my prayers. I’ll add Devon and Seth to my special shout-ups, right along with the one for you.
Emerald
Actually, John’s sister Devon wrote a comment on the RIP Tunch thread, #965. It’s obvious that she’s completely devastated and blames herself although she wasn’t even in town.
Just an awful situation. Devon loves her dog just as John loved Tunch. My only suggestion would be for the whole family to get together for a huge cryfest and group hug, and to make sure that John never has to encounter the dog again. If he goes to Devon’s house, get the dog outta there.
But I’m not surprised that the siblings feel even worse. Poor family! Just know everybody here loves all of you.
Genine
Sending good juju to Devon and Seth. What happened was a tragic accident and neither of them are to blame. You are not to blame, either, John. And Kiwi is innocent. She had no idea what she was doing. As for putting her down, I have no idea what is best but you do have a point about this incident being problematic.
My hope is that all of you heal from this. Love and light to Seth, Devon and Kiwi.
phoebes-in-santa fe
I know about your sister, Devon. She’s the one who runs every year in Ohio for – I think – MS and raises money for research and treatment. She does great things – as do the other fund raisers. I hope, like you, that she puts Kiwi down, for her own peace of mind as well as yours and your brother.
I assume your father’s doing better? Damn, is he trying to get rid of every finger?
My thoughts are with you all, for a second night. Give both dogs an extra hug tonight; they’ve got to be missing that huge cat and are probably confused.
Karen in GA (who really needs a better name)
Aw, hell. I just feel so horrible for you and your family.
Sayne
I am not in the All Pitbulls Must Die camp. My friend has an intelligent, sweet Pitbull mix that I occasionally watch on weekends. But this dog’s jaws can compress black Kong toys. My parents Bouvier cannot do that, and the Bouv weighs 115 lbs. Pitbull’s jaws are built for strength and they have the terrier’s neck-breaking shake hard-wired in to them.
Moral of the story, don’t know if the Pitbull should be put down, but my instinct would have been to kill that Pitbull with my chef’s knife if it had been my cat or dog that it killed. The moment after it was done I would have felt so horrible… and I applaud your strength.
Thinking happy thoughts towards you and your family, this can’t be an easy situation.
cynn
I send best thoughts to your brother and sister. I personally hate pit bulls and chows, and believe they are genetic killers. They have their place, I suppose. Much condolences, and I’ll give to MaxFund.
John O
@Botsplainer:
LOL.
We have wildly divergent views of John’s needs.
John doesn’t need a “healing professional” (at least one he has to pay) any more than he needs another 30 lbs. :-)
John is wildly loved, and has close family, old friends, and a blog to know it. That’s all he needs.
Honestly, I don’t get how someone can read that post and conclude that someone needs professional help. I read that post and thought it was all going to be fine when everyone settled down, because everyone involved in the horror is handling it so appropriately.
Botsplainer
The whole notion of “no kill, ever” rescue does create major heartache.
About the only sensible way to do it is by the canine equivalent of solitary confinement (possibly for life) with only one or two animals at a time.
Cassidy
Yo peeps, the family reads the blog, as evidenced in this comment @Emerald: . We all know that of course, but maybe the moralizing on putting the animal down should be kept to a minimum. Is what it is, though, and I’m going to bed.
opiejeanne
You are a generous soul, Mr. Cole.
Murdering the dog that killed my two rabbits was the second or third thing I thought of, but my first impulse was to chase him from the yard. He belonged to my irresponsible neighbor who had let it out of his backyard even though my plumber told him to get his damned dog back in his yard, maybe 10 minutes before I heard them being killed. It was the sound that got me. I still can’t get it out of my head, like birds screaming. That was 10 years ago. It was a small sheep dog, the type in the movie Babe, but I can’t remember the name of the breed.
Anya
John, good night! I hope you sleep better tonight.
Old Dan and Little Ann
My yellow lab Mickey was attacked by a Pit Bull when he was 6 months old. Had that fucker latched onto Mickey’s throat instead of his snout Mickey would not have lived his 11 years. Took the asshole neighbors to court and that vicious fucking dog was put down. I hate Pit Bulls.
mcmullje
Good thoughts with absolutely no judgment are on their way.
esc
My father had a dog mauled to death by a Great Dane that was allowed to roam his neighborhood. It didn’t matter to anyone but him and his family at the time. Then the same dog terribly injured a toddler. It’s my understanding the dog in this scenario was quite vicious, and the injuries to my father’s pet were gruesome to say the least, so a very different scenario then a terrier acting like a terrier, but I would be too permanently on edge around a dog that did something like that to be a good owner to it.
cokane
not moralizing here, but that couple should put the dog down, just for selfish liability reasons, not to mention risk to society
Eljai
I will send good energy to your entire clan because you are a good person and so are your siblings. I adopted a cat — the late, great Sparkle — because the greyhound she lived with kept mistaking her for bait. My friend, the greyhound’s owner, like your sister, had a big heart and adopted a rescue dog who was supposed to be cat-safe but was not. Sparkle had a close call with the greyhound, but fortunately she survived and that’s how she came to live with me for seven wonderful years until she died of cancer 4 years ago. My friend kept the greyhound, who became a very sweet dog, but my friend never let her off her leash unless they were in an enclosed area. The greyhound passed away two years before Sparkle. I cried like a baby for both of them. Also, thank you for introducing us to Tunch. I can only imagine how much it hurts to lose him. He was a magnificent beast and he touched us all.
CaseyL
I’ve been thinking of Devon and Seth, too, and how your parents are dealing with this, and worrying about your family generally in the aftermath of this tragedy.
You’re a great-hearted man to be able to forgive this soon – I don’t think I would have it in me to be that understanding while still reeling from loss; but, of course, you must forgive them and they must forgive themselves, because how can you go on and still be a close-knit family otherwise?
I would have gone after Kiwi, too. I’ve done that – not killed any animal, but have dived into a ball of fighting cats and grabbed the one attacking mine and tossed it aside, not even feeling the scratches and bites. I perfectly understand the impulse to kill, especially in the shock and horror of the moment. (As one of BJ’s commentors noted on her blog, for people who are childless, our critters are our babies. Our attachment to them is as strong, fierce and protective as parents’ attachments to their human children.)
I don’t know what to say about Kiwi. The fact that she doesn’t understand she did anything wrong makes it worse, not better, because she won’t learn not to do it again. Devon’s in a special hell right now, and my heart goes out to her.
Nina-the-first
Just stay open, keep your Cole family big, loving hearts open–it comes naturally to Coles–but this will be tough. Time will help too. So very deeply sorry to see you all go through this.
SIA
I feel for Devon and Seth very much, and I am thinking of them and all the family. No one is to blame, tragedies happen. I hope everyone can forgive themselves. I’m praying for this.
strandedvandal
I feel for your kin. The dog needs to die. Next time it could just as easily be a toddler.
JWL
I grew up next door to a family whose cat Sugar gave birth to 5 kittens. Coffee & Muffin were my two favorites.
Muffin was a mature Tom when he killed another Tom in a fight. I laid eyes on that cat corpse, and believed it was Muffin. But Muffin had survived. Within a few days, though sorely wounded, he crawled back home, and there he died. The two cats had killed each other.
Animals are animals. Cat’s kill birds, cats sometimes kill each other, and dogs will sometimes kill cats. That’s the way it is, the way it’s always been, and the way it always will be.
I know you know all that. At best, it’s cold comfort to hear it spelled out, if any comfort at all.
But there it is.
khead
Thank you for filling in some blanks, John.
And there’s no shame in going for the knife. I’m pretty sure that would’ve been our (me, wife) first reaction too. The good part is that you don’t have a story to tell about chasing the dog around the house with the knife.
Chat Noir
I have been wondering how your sibs are doing, John, in addition to how you’ve been. Sending positive vibes to the whole Cole clan.
KS in MA
May peace be with all of you. I think you’re totally right that the dog was just doing what she was bred to do. If your sister doesn’t want to have the dog put down (I can sure understand why she wouldn’t), maybe she could put the dog on a leash. She’ll probably get laughed at in WV, but laughter isn’t so bad!
Alison
Much love to Devon and Seth. I can’t imagine how horrible they must feel.
I agree with you about pit bulls. I know a few folks who have them and everyone says *their* dog is super sweet and would never ever hurt anyone…but the plain facts are that many many pits do hurt, and most attacks are by pits. And in this case, there is the consideration that while you are usually not legally liable the first time your dog bites or attacks someone, you ARE for any future attacks, because now you know it has the tendency. So if Kiwi were to ever bite another animal or a person, Devon could be held legally responsible…I don’t know what that would mean, but I’m sure it would suck.
People need to accept that dogs are animals, and are not perfect nor predictable, and that pits especially while they can be sweet, do have that genetic propensity not just to violence but sudden and out-of-nowhere violence. Posting pictures of happy looking pits sitting next to kids doesn’t erase the truth, unfortunately.
And again John…love to you, and I hope you’re doing okay, or as okay as can be expected.
michelle
I my experience, this is true. One of my dogs killed a possum in the house. My much larger Chow Chow hid behind me while I was trying to figure out what to do. It was 3 in the morning. That same dog went on to kill a neighbor’s dog who got into my yard. I felt terrible about it. I still have her — she’s a bird dog — but I keep her separated.
Funny, the Chow Chow, now dead, scared people the most, but she never hurt a soul except for me when I was trying to keep her and the bird dog from killing each other.
Kiwi will kill again unless she is an only dog separated from other animals. Given what your sister does, this might not be possible. But it is the best advice I can give if she doesn’t want to put her down. Putting down a sick pet is hard enough; putting down a healthy animal would be harder still.
I have a pit bull mix who is the love of my life. Even when the other two were trying to kill each other, he stayed back. He is a wonderfully shy dog. Little kids love him but he only trusts me.
It’s just so hard when the animals we love wreck things like this.
All of us here are sending you and yours good vibes from our small part of the universe and hope that the right decisions are made and life goes forward better.
I’m so sorry for you and your family.
RoonieRoo
I agree that Kiwi should not be rehomed to anyone else and, in all honesty, should be put down. I am a supporter of pit bulls, in general. With that said, the one and only fight our dog has been in was when he was attacked by a pit bull in the neighborhood which made me not a fan.
But, with that said, my heart is aching for your sister and your brother. I cannot fathom my agony if one of my dogs killed a friend or family member’s cat. We have a brand new Lab puppy that has joined our family and he’s just a bit too interested in the cats. Granted it is puppy interest so I’m not terribly concerned BUT I can say he will never, ever be out of his crate when I’m not within arms reach of him until he is at least 2 years old.
I can say that but things happen. You get distracted for just that 1 second. I have two huge dogs and it doesn’t take hardly anything for them to decide to do something together. I’ve thought a lot about that today and I choke up when I think of the agony your sister and brother must feel as well. I cannot lie and say that there isn’t an ember of anger down deep because I feel strongly that those that choose to support/have pitbulls have an extra layer of responsibility.
I hope and pray that your sister and brother are able to find peace in this. It will take time for all of you but it will come. I feel a bit strange saying this but since John (Grumpy) and I met you in Austin, it’s not so strange. Sending our love and thoughts to you and your family in what will be another difficult night of sleep.
SIA
The RIP Tunch post just hit 1000 comments. So much love. Libtards are the best.
hilzoy
I’ve been thinking of your brother and sister, among other people, since this happened. This must be so tough for them.
Also, speaking as a professional: you’re a good guy, Mr. Cole.
Anya
People, stop with the talk about putting the dog down. The family is still grieving and the pain is still too raw for them to deal with this, so keep your moralizing and advice to yourselves.
Gex
To your siblings I say this:
It is a natural part of grief and shock that the brain urges us to take blame for things that are out of our control. It will grab on to ever fork in the road where we could have turned left instead of right, but it will do so cruelly, with the benefit of hindsight.
It is, alas, a part of our need to feel like we do have some control. But we do not. Allow those feelings, as they are natural. But they are not necessarily right. Please be gentle with yourselves.
My best to you all as you find your way through this while time works to heal as much of the pain as it can.
Lots of love to the Cole clan, two and four-legged.
Redshirt
My step sister just had a baby and her husband has a big, lovable pit bull. He’s not trained, high energy, and dominant. I’ve never said anything to them, because it’s not my place, but always in the back of my mind… there it is. Like many have said, instinct is instinct and all it takes is a moment.
Flying Squirrel Girl
I have a Rhodesian ridgeback/black mouth cur mix. When I read about the BMC breed, what I learned was “non-canine animals in the home are not safe.” I have taken this very seriously, as I do not doubt that she would do harm to anything that runs from her. It is not a thing I can train out of her, this I understand. I would blame no one but myself if she were to get hold of a neighbor cat, guinea pig, bird, etc. It doesn’t change the fact that she is the sweetest dog I’ve ever known, it just reminds me that no amount of love and/or training will change what she was bred to do.
I don’t know why I feel the need to share this, other than I fear that my dog might do the same thing if she ever had the chance, and it would devastate me the same way Tunch’s violent death has affected John and his family.
Sometimes you can’t help who you love.
Paddy
I’m not even going to try and be moralizing, but in my grumble grumble years on this earth, there is NO dog I would trust implicitly with a child, and most dogs I would have a hard eye on around cats. Ever watch dogs with a chew toy? They are born with instincts on how to kill something, and sometimes, they kill things.
I’ve actually been sending good vibes to your bro since last night, knowing how awful he must feel.
Pits are no worse than rotts and dobbies before them. But ever notice that the popular dog with the AA’s at the moment is the evil dog dujour? Whowouldathunk?
Disclaimer- SIL & Bro are very active in Pit rescue, but I’m wary around all dogs.
ulee
John, my thoughts go out to you and your family. When I read that Tunch had been killed I burst into tears. And now I know it was a pit bull, another fucking pit bull attack. I’m so weary of this breed. When I walk my dogs I have no trepidation about any dog that we meet, except pit bulls that scare the crap out of me because I’m afraid my dogs will be attacked and killed. Enough. Poor Tunch.
erlking
Hey John,
I was going to snark out and realized that I’d just be demonstrating what a dick I am, so, you know, fuck that. You’re really kind, man, and you were clearly raised right. Peace to all Coles everywhere. Let no one beat themselves up:sometimes the universe takes an ugly turn and we’re left to sort the rubble out.
I hope you guys can have some hugs/tears/booze and stories and be right for and to each other.
You’re good people, Cole.
Gex
Just wanted to add, your sister and brother have been in my thoughts and in my heart since the first post. I can’t imagine how hard it would be to be in their position. I want for you all to find peace.
Elsa
Long-time lurker, and late to this news. But I wanted to add my condolences to the many you’ve already received. My cat was killed by a pit bull when I was a kid. In my case, the owners were egging on the dog, which I think they kept for fighting. Horrible all around. I will greatly miss the Tunch updates.
Mark B.
Geez, John, I’m so sorry for your loss. I’m impressed with how well you’re handling it, and your concern for your sister is just an indication of what a good guy you are, even in a time where it’s not so easy. My calico that I had for 12 years was killed by a coyote, and I was a wreck for weeks. I couldn’t be mad at the coyote, because that’s what they do, but I was mad at myself for letting her go outside.
SIA
@JWL: Actually, that did comfort me when my beautiful Romeo died. He was a “pet”, but also predator and prey, and died in the horrible, natural order of things. I was the one who unwittingly let him out to his death, and I was so racked with anguish when I found his remains. The only slight easing of the pain from viewing it in the way you describe. But, oh, this has brought it all back. There’s a weight on my chest. I love you Romeo. Bless Tunch and all the Coles.
strandedvandal
@Anya: I am sorry if my opinion upset you. I had our cat attacked and killed by two pit bulls that some dumbshit let run loose in the neighborhood. I caught 1, killed it but couldn’t catch the other. That pit attacked one of our elderly neighbors a few days later. Just because it’s alive, doesn’t mean it deserves to be.
am
I’m very sorry about Tunch, but asking your sister to have the dog put down is a huge dick move. I hope she doesn’t listen and saves you from making a huge mistake.
Garbo
Of course we will include Devon and Seth in our thoughts and I concur we should leave the decisions about what is best to the big hearted Cole clan. I also hope your Dad is doing okay after the altercation with the dishwasher. Proud of Rosie for stepping up to be your emotional protector in this moment. I add my vote for a Remember Tunch shirt. He had a rock star’s attitude and following. Only fitting he should have the swag as well.
GregB
Growing up, our family dog was a Saint Bernard. Big and lunky and drooly Barney. He was hell with lots of other animals. Killed someones cat, killed two of the neighbors chickens and a rabbit. Mixed it up with other dogs.
Yet he never hurt a human. Scared many with his bark but never hurt anyone.
I am in the stop breeding so many damn Pit Bulls and stop mistreating them and stop thinking a fucking dog can bestow toughness on a human.
That being said, the statistics show that Pit Bulls are the top of the heap in damaging and killing humans.
Oh yeah and humans who pay to watch dog fights are gutter scum.
Eljai
@SIA: Bless you.
Garbo
Of course we will include Devon and Seth in our thoughts and I concur we should leave the decisions about what is best to the big hearted Cole clan. I also hope your Dad is doing okay after the altercation with the dish washer. Proud of Rosie for stepping up to be your emotional protector in this moment. I add my vote for a Remember Tunch shirt. He had a rock star’s attitude and following. Only fitting he should have the swag as well.
Barbara
This must be so tough. My brother in law rescued a pit bull and it drove me crazy that he was nonchalant about having him run around the yard and the house when my kids were around. His only known trigger was other male dogs, and then, only some of those (like mine). This mostly sweet dog still ended up getting into a fight to the death with another dog, some kind of hound dog (rural, hunting country, where dogs roam). Both dogs died after a horribly gruesome fight that my brother in law realized he could stop only if he used a gun, which he could not bring himself to do.
Many dogs, not just pit bulls, would go after cats, much like many dogs go after squirrels and rabbits — my beagle killed a few of those. But not many dogs have the wherewithal to inflict fatal injuries on a cat. In that respect, I think going after dogs is more likely to be an omen of further violence, because dogs are social creatures who generally should get along with each other, as they should get along with people.
Having said all that, I hate the idea of owning a vicious dog. I had a dog that was probably mentally ill and it felt like a form of torture, for 6 years, I could not train him away from his paranoia or aggressive reaction to territorial incursions, drugs did not work, but I just could not put him down — I finally found someone who runs a rehab community for dogs (probably like your sister, but way more dogs), who took him. It’s very isolated, but the dogs live inside and are treated very well. I don’t know what I would do and I feel for both you and your sister.
Betsy
Hey John, I am shocked and very saddened to hear what happened. It’s awful. I’m sorry. It is so very awful. I’m sorry that it happened to you and your wonderful family and your animal friends. I’m so sorry. That’s all I can say but I will be thinking of you all and especially Tunch.
SuperHrefna
I can imagine the hell broth of guilt, shock and grief that Devon and Seth must be feeling. Big hugs to both of them. Its things like this that bring home to us how fragile our lives and our happiness are, a happy afternoon can become a nightmare in an eyeblink. The trick is to live with that knowledge and take sensible precautions without it robbing you of all joy, trust and spontaneity. That’s a tough tightrope to walk and we all screw it up from time to time.
Please forgive yourselves. Devon, you gave your heart to a dog who never asked to be born to a fighting breed. Seth, you were caring for that dog and visiting your brother and family togetherness is a good thing. I’m sure I’m not the only reader of BJ that sighs wistfully at all Cole’s depictions of his close knit family life. Neither of you meant for this to happen, it was a horrible accident.
I’m more sorry than I can say for the whole Cole family and my wish for you is that you can forgive yourselves, rally round and deal with the fallout together and in the fullness of time help Cole find a new feline life partner. Who won’t be Tunch, but who will be his or her very own expression of the Feline. Tunch taught you what a golden pleasure it is to be taken into the inner circle of a cat’s love. His lessons will help you bond with another cat someday.
Johannes
@La Caterina (Mrs. Johannes): My wife is a far better person than I am, and what she writes here is very wise, albeit very hard to discern and hard to do. Light and love to Devon and Seth, and I have no unasked advice to offer about the unfortunate Kiwi; I’ll pray that they make the right choice whatever that choice might be.
And, I know a bunch of us have said this, but it bears repeating: you’re a good man, John Cole. All concerned–Tunch, Devon, Seth, even Kiwi (you didn’t follow through on that impulse; some people would) are lucky you are who you are.
Viva BrisVegas
My condolences to everybody.
That said, if you are looking for a dog to rescue and you find a pitbull, keep looking.
There is a reason why so many pitbulls need help. Pitbulls are just too good at what they were bred for.
Gex
@cokane:Which “couple” are you talking about exactly?
Botsplainer
@michelle:
I did that once with a deranged terrier mix we adopted. She had lived in an apartment with a divorcing family and had her first litter before she was a year old. When we got her, there was no socializing her – she was a fence climber, an escape artist, terrible on a leash and psychotically aggressive toward other dogs. Plus, she refused to housebreak – I could walk that dog for two hours, and she’d do nothing; once in the house, she’d crap.
The last straw was when she scratched the hell out of my then 5 year old who was just sitting with her (I watched it happen) followed by an escape, an attack on a neighbor dog and an attack on the neighbor. I put her down the next day, and she wasn’t but 2 or 3 years old. My mother was horrified, but it was the right thing for me to do.
Anya
@strandedvandal: I am sorry you had to experience that. I just think the family is dealing with a horrible loss and all the accompanying guilt, and they don’t need us to give them advice about whether the dog should live or die. I think Devon needs space to make that decision.
gbear
John, if you’re still checking in, could you do your readers a favor and ban the stinking rot of T&H’s comments? He stunk up the last thread in minutes and is throwing bombs into this one too. Thanks.
katienorth
@JWL: this X1000. and sometimes dogs also kill other dogs. That’s what happened with my aunt’s JRTs. Two of the younger ones killed their mom when they were probably 5 or 6 and the mom was 8. It was a tragic mess. My other aunt’s JRTs killed the cat they lived with for almost a decade. & the pit bulls I’ve known have been sweet, well trained, and well guarded by their owners.
No one deserves blame in this sad situation. Dogs and cats are animals that kill animals; they’re also sweet and awesome. As is our dear blog host & his family. Love to all.
Suzanne
I have a Pit/Lab mix, and so I am very firmly NOT in the Pits-must-die camp, I do think that once an animal attacks another, the situation must really be examined closely and if there is some doubt as to the dog’s nature, then the dog needs to be put down for everyone’s safety. I had a Siberian Husky with a neurological condition that accidentally killed my mother’s Bichon Frise. The two dogs were playing, as they did all the time, and somehow my Husky slashed the Bichon’s neck open. There wasn’t any aggression shown outside of normal dog play, but the size differential made the Bichon more vulnerable. It really was an accident—my mother and I saw it happen, and my Husky showed no aggressive behavior. That may be what happened in this instance….if you didn’t see it happen, there’s no way to know.
We got my Luna from the Humane Society as a puppy, and she hasn’t shown signs of aggression to any other cats, dogs, or people, not ever. She was temperament tested, and yet I still keep her crated when I leave the house and supervise at all times around the kids. But my daughter was bitten by the poodle down the street, and I was bitten by a border collie mutt, so perhaps the lesson that we all need to remember is that any dog or cat, at any size, is an animal capable of animalistic behaviors, and it is the job of the owners to always remain vigilant.
kdaug
Devon & Seth: If you read this – there is no “fault” here. Nobody wanted this. No blame.
Just nature.
You decide what to do with Kiwi. I’m glad I don’t have to.
thalarctos
Dear Devon and Seth,
You are in our thoughts, as well as John and Tunch are.
This was a horrible accident, but it was no one’s fault. All of us have been in situations where something went wrong, and we know how tempting it is to second-guess and blame ourselves and try desperately to change what happened and make it turn out differently.
Sometimes, bad things just happen.
I truly hope that the passage of time and the good memories of Tunch will be of help to you in forgiving yourself for a moment of awful bad luck that was never your fault.
SIA
@Eljai: :)
Jester
I really don’t get why some folks think this was unforeseeable. Pit bull with behavioral problems brought to a house with an occasionally ill-tempered, much smaller cat (plus two other small dogs). This isn’t rocket science. However,I think John’s response to this is best: what’s done is done, but don’t let it happen again.
Best wishes, and hope the entire Cole family can heal and move on from this.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Anya: I understand the concern, but John did bring it up. I’m also sure his sister has heard this type of talk before this incident; pitbulls are talked about that way. We all have our feelings about it.
Ted & Hellen
@Anya:
OK, well you’ve expressed your opinion.
Just as everyone else is free to do.
So please stop telling other people to STFU.
Thank you.
Suzanne
And, of course, love and comfort to your brother and sister. They must both be feeling horrible. I hope Devon makes peace with whatever decision she makes, and they both find peace.
Sibling Nonspecific Firearm of Random Adjective Followed by a Noun That Describes a Mental State (fka AWS)
Jesus. Fuck. I am just so sorry for you all!
SIA
@SuperHrefna: So very well said.
MikeJ
@SIA:
And the RIP Stuck is at 238.
Ted & Hellen
@gbear:
John, if you’re still checking in, could you please ban gbear?
It makes me uncomfortable sometimes, and that’s really all that should matter.
Thanks!
Tehanu
John, you are truly a loving soul and I am so sorry for your loss, and for your sister and brother-in-law too, who must feel awful.
Now when everyone is so upset, is not the time to make a final decision about the dog, or to pressure anyone, and there are alternatives to putting it down. But a decision will have to be made. Someone up thread said “while you are usually not legally liable the first time your dog bites or attacks someone, you ARE for any future attacks, because now you know it has the tendency.” I don’t know the law in W. Va. but out here in Calif. you ARE legally liable the first time; there’s no “one bite free” rule. My husband was a personal injury lawyer and had several clients over the years, children who were mutilated and traumatized for life by dog attacks. We love dogs, but it is reality that they can be dangerous. They are not to blame in any sense; it’s their natural instinct; but there it is.
InternetDragons
You’re handling this as well as anyone could, John. And speaking as one of those mental health professional types…from what I can tell you don’t need to contact a “healing professional’…you are shouldering this and working through it with grace and strength, and lots of love is coming your way.
I am not in the “all pit bulls must die” camp, as I owned and loved a couple of them for many years. I will toss this out, though, from a couple of decades of rescue experience, specifically with pit bulls, pit bull mixes and the sight hounds (greyhounds, borzoi) who have a REALLY intense innate prey drive.
Love alone is not enough for some of these dogs. And it isn’t “just nature” to expect them to kill other pets or attack children. This isn’t the freaking Serengeti Plains. It’s a matter of assessment, training, and sometimes making really hard decisions about dogs you wish could change.
These dogs need a particular fostering environment that includes assessment and training and the capacity to determine whether the dog should be kept away from children or other pets. Just adopting them and loving them is not enough, You have to face the reality of their breeding, which is made toxic by abuse or neglect before they get to your home.
If you insist on fostering dogs like these and are anything less than 1000% certain of their temperament, then make socialization training and obedience school part of your everyday life. Learn to keep them on a leash if you take them anywhere, and preferably muzzle them if you are visiting friends or neighbors who have kids or pets. That may sound mean but I promise you it isn’t meant to be. Just treating these dogs like any generic adopted dog and schlepping around the neighborhood with them is not an option, and if you aren’t willing to put the sometimes heartbreaking training time in, then don’t work with those breeds at all. There are plenty of others that need you.
The casual way Kiwi dispatched Tunch does not bode well for change. I know everyone is suffering here, and I am really sorry for that. I still can’t wrap my mind around the fact that Tunch is gone.
SG
You’re a better man than I am, John Cole.
MikeInSewickley
John, I was wondering about the dog and really did not want to assume that it was a pit bull or pit bull mix. Knowing family’s desire to help animals, I figured it was a rehab dog that just acted out but knowing the breed makes the whole thing more understandable – not any less painful.
And don’t apologize about having that urge for revenge – it shows you are a good man because you didn’t do it.
And I knew a 5 year old girl who had her lower lip nearly ripped off by a dachshund. All the years of home care won’t overcome genetics no matter what the breed as far as I’m concerned.
May your sister and brother find peace.
SIA
@MikeJ: Someone said that Stuck was petting a floofy cat right about now. I like that. Hey Stuck, please also look in on Sam, Zipper, Chloe, Jones, Romeo, and Maggie! Keep an eye on ’em till I get there, will ya dude?
cckids
I’m sure you don’t need more advice, but I’ve got to agree with you,John about putting Kiwi down. If she is one of the irredeemable dogs, chances are she’s done something else; not at this scale, but something. And, as you say, what might come next? And what would that do to Devon?
A compassionate “putting to sleep” isn’t the worst way to go.
Sasha
Several years ago, we found Jessica; a lactating Rottweiler who was nearly starving and had heart worm among other things. Jessica was the sweetest dog imaginable; she loved us like crazy but she just couldn’t stop going after the other animals. She had no access to our cats but she would go after one dog, we would keep them separate then she shift her aggression to a different one. This dog chewed through a plywood wall to kill a chicken. She just couldn’t help herself. The last day of her life, my husband got puncture wounds on his hands prying her mouth off of another dog’s snout. I miss her everyday but I don’t regret the decision we made.
I agree with commenter who said that a dog’s aggression against animals doesn’t necessarily mean it will be aggressive to humans but many animals are going to be other people’s pets. I can also attest that it is really hard to always maintain control over an aggressive animal and if you fail even once, it can have drastic results. Like I said, I miss her still but, oh what a relief it was when we put her down. I had no idea how much stress she added to our lives and how much easier it would be without her. Easier for the other dogs too, they really changed when she was gone.
I am sure there are circumstances where it could work out but given the dynamic of John’s family; the frequent visits that include the pets, this is probably just not the right place for this dog.
Lyrebird
Wow, coming back from a trip to hear sad news upon sad news –and you betcha I’m sending (non-denom.) prayers to you John and to your sibs and to everyone involved. Incl the dogs.
Jane2
@Mystical chick: This. I could not have expressed myself so eloquently. Best wishes to all of you; no one could have predicted or prevented the tragic outcome, and you all deserve the most generous of hearts now.
farmette
It was a random and quick set of circumstances but that dog had a good memory of a previous encounter and had no impulse control. A bad combination. I love all animals, but I have learned that some are to be feared. No less respect, just reality.
eemom
@Anya:
fwiw, I’m with you. What part of
do all these “I’m not moralizing, but”s not understand?
mai naem
I can’t stand the thought of killling an animal. It’s just against everything I believe in but I don’t know – next time Kiwi kills an animal, it may not be a family member’s pet. It may be somebody who may not be as understanding as John. I don’t know what you do, it’s an awful awful decision to make. I wish there was an easy quick fix way of retraining a dog or even giving them an antipsychotic or something..
alicia-logic
I can only imagine how hard this must be for everyone in the family and I will add my wishes to everyone else’s for Devon and Seth to find peace at this terrible time.
As far as I can see, a game terrier killed an animal that was not known to it, out of doors, that likely displayed some aggression. Horrifying as it is to those of us who loved Tunch, if even only from afar, this is pretty unsurprising behavior.
I’ll just make the following points:
1. Aggression toward animals in dogs is not necessarily equivalent to aggression toward humans. I think if the dog version of Noah built an ark, it would contain 3 or perhaps 4 “kinds”: human, canine, and non-canine (perhaps divided by whether it was small enough to kill alone.)
2. The most reliable predictor of mauling of humans by dogs is *intact male*, not breed.
I won’t presume to diagnose from afar whether Kiwi is “vicious”, a danger to humans or should be put down. But for the sake of Devon and John’s relationship, it might be worth considering whether someone experienced in rescuing/training/assessing game terriers should be asked to take Kiwi and determine her ultimate fate. It seems to me this decision is too fraught with emotional minefields for anyone in this family to have to make it.
Yatsuno
@SIA: I’d like to think Stuck is getting big Newfie kisses from my first dog Sasha. Everyone’s first dog should be a Newfoundland.
ChristianPinko
I’m glad your brother was there to stop you from hurting Kiwi. I’m not saying that you’re wrong about pit bulls, or that that particular dog doesn’t need to be put down; but I think that later on you would have really regretted acting in a moment of anger. Thank God for small mercies, is what I’m saying.
SIA
@Yatsuno: I love Newfoundlands! My first dog was a fat beagle named Samantha. :)
Vegas Broad
John, your honesty is amazing. That’s why I love this site and come here every night. If people were half as honest as you, this world wouldn’t be near as fucked up.
I’m not worried about you or your brother or sister. You all love each other and you’ll be fine. I agree Kiwi should be put down but give your sister some time to negotiate that with herself. She’s already feeling crappy enough.
Good luck to all of you and so sorry for your loss. I know that cat meant the world to you. When my golden died last year, I was inconsolable for days. Healing thoughts to everyone.
johnny's mom
John Cole, ANY dog, especially any dog with a high prey drive, COULD have done what Kiwi did. Pitbulls are dogs, really good dogs. Any breed can be trained to fight, kill, defend, or detect. Some individuals will be more able than others.
My father’s lab tried to kill two cats. She was not a pitbull. It was not play for her. She had to go after cats, squirrels, rabbits, ducks and geese. My neighbor’s Akita went after another neighbor’s cat. I don’t know what her drive was. I know she was an Akita, not a pitbull.
The media have sold you a bill of goods. There was probably a time when you believed in the liberal media conspiracy. There is a pitbull conspiracy, because it’s sensational. Don’t buy into it. It harms/kills many great dogs. I’m begging you to question your feelings about pitbulls is different from Rand Paul’s feelings about blacks. It’s not groups, it’s individuals. Kiwi should be re-homed in house without other pets. She shouldn’t be killed for being a dog and acting like one.
I am very sorry for your loss.
dance around in your bones
I was telling my (adult) daughter about the Tunch incident this morning (she only knows about the blog from me talking about it all the time) and the first thing she said was oh jeez, that’s got to be hard on the brother and sister as well.
I send all kinds of healing vibes to them because I know they must be hurting almost as much as you are. Almost.
In Mexico, they always say any dog will bite given the right circumstances. One of our dogs, who was the sweetest German Shepard mix ever, was asleep on her bean bag chair (yes, it was a long time ago) when a friend’s toddler fell on her. She instinctively snapped at the child (from a dead sleep) but luckily there was no real damage.
But it sure reinforced to me that, yes – all dogs will bite under certain circumstances.
I just feel so bad for all of you………
alicia-logic
@InternetDragons: All of this. Cosigned.
JCT
John- thanks for filling us in re: your siblings. I can’t imagine how badly they feel to have played any role, albeit accidental, in the loss of Tunch. Strong healing thoughts to all.
As far as pitbulls go, I trained in a big city hospital in the Bronx – tons of dumbasses have pits that they use to make themselves feel like big tough guys. I must have seen 10 nasty bites in the Peds ER during my time there, the worst was a 2 year old girl who made the mistake of petting her fucking idiot’ uncle’s “doggie” -a big pit. She survived, but her face was nearly unreconizable.
To this day, although our beagles have never been aggressive to anyone or any of our 3 cats. I watch them like a hawk around kids. You just never know.
michelle
Here’s a pic of Kiwi.
maven
@eemom: Because it’s a moral issue. Of course we’re moralizing.
Mary G
Our local shelter is full of pit bull & pit bull mixes. Other dogs, except for chihuahuas, go back out the door almost as soon as they come in, but the pit bulls just pile up and pile up. They had to build them their own wing of kennels. It’s sad to see, but I’d never adopt one of them. You can’t get homeowners insurance for them in California because of the underwriting showing they cost too much in claims.
Praying for Devon, Seth, John, Dad, Mom, and the rest of the Cole family. This is a tragedy that will be heartbreaking all around no matter what happens. So glad to see that you are sticking together.
eemom
I just read Devon’s comment on the RIP Tunch thread. It is heartbreaking.
I would like to suggest that everyone falling all over themselves with wisdom about what should be done read it as well.
maven
@michelle: 100 pounds ago.
Anne Laurie
The important thing isn’t that you went for the knife, John — it’s that you didn’t use it. Healing light for you and your sibs, individually & collectively.
Love and patience can fix so much, it’s hard to admit that even those of us with the greatest reserves of love can’t fix everything. I’ve known and loved dogs who couldn’t be trusted (with ‘prey animals’, with other dogs, with strange people), including the rescue field Afghan Hound who was a major impetus for me to get my first dog. The people who choose to love these ‘challenging’ animals have to know that they’re taking on a special responsbility, and be willing to modify their lives as well as their dogs’ to accommodate the dog’s needs. It may be that Kiwi needs to be re-homed to someone who doesn’t have cats / small dogs / young children in their social networks, but as you say, that’s up to your sister, and she’s still dealing with the trauma right now.
eemom
@maven:
Learn to fucking read. The question is why you’re moralizing when Cole asked you not to.
asiangrrlMN
You’re a good man, Cole. Lots of light and positive vibes to Devon and Seth, too. They must be wrecked right now.
jl
I’m sure John’s family feels horrible about what happened. I sincerely hope they can work through it. John is a good guy who can understand the importance of forgiveness and compassion in such a situation and I wish them good luck and getting through the loss.
I don’t think speculating about whether the dog should be killed is moralizing, it’s just using this sad situation as an excuse to vent about issues without having enough information about this specific case to say anything responsible or useful.
This is in large part a pet blog, so I am sure there will be a time later to discuss the morals, and preventive measures that might have been, and animal control policies. Now is not the time, IMHO.
Lola
A few years ago my sister’s rescued cat attacked me. I had my 2 cats with me, in their carriers. I opened the door and that is when my sister’s cat latched on to my leg and arm.
The doctor who treated me said that she had treated many other people who had been attacked by rescued cats and dogs. She was of the opinion that any animal that attacked people or other animals should be put down. She felt that 1 attack was just the first attack, not an aberration. My sister put her cat down.
Your experience with your brother and sister and Tunch brought it all back. I grieve for all of you.
tulip
Devon and Seth all my good thoughts go to you. And I’m glad John you seem to be coping a little bit better.
I’m sorry for all of your hurts.
Punchy
Whats scary is just how many peeps have Pit maul stories. My brother’s dog got mauled, then during the attempted break-up, the Pit went after his own owner and completely trashed her ankle. Rescue Pit, natch. I dont know of any other breed that so often attacks their owner. Meance to a neighborhood
Yatsuno
@asiangrrlMN: Seconded, oh wise fake wifey of mine.
Anne Laurie
@InternetDragons:
Beat me to it. Should’ve expected it, this is Balloon Juice!
David
You tell me what I should do. My 15 year old nephew brought a Black Lab/Dalmation puppy to my 80 year old mothers house (in town 1/8 acre lot with 6 foot privacy fence) 6 years ago. Said nephew left due to a variety of reasons we won’t go into here after “raising” said BL/D to be a “tough” dog. 80 year old mother could not take care of BL/D the way a dog needs taken care of. She made sure his physical well being was good…timely vet visits, baths etc, etc…but the animal had no social interaction at all. Period none.
I live in another town and was not in a position to help her but I always knew that I would rescue him when I could. I watched and helped take care of my dying mother (cancer) and did in fact rescue BL/D.
He loves me. But he is extremely difficult to handle. I am almost 60 with serious health issues. This BL/D has accidentally hurt me (as I post this I still have issues with my left hand from a month ago) has drug me down the street, chased, but never bit runners, barked like holy hell every time the Golden Retriever goes by or when the mailman drops mail in the door.
I tried to have him put down. There is not a Vet in my area that will kill a dog that is just difficult. Not one. I tried.
So what do I do? Load my Glock that has never been out of the box that it is in that was given to me? Drag out that .38 that I never bought bullets for….. and shot the son of a bitch?
I feel your pain. Let it go. Your had a wonderful animal and a horrid thing happened. Peace be with you and your family. Love the memories.
michelle
@maven: Just like there are cats that need to be only cats, there are dogs that need to be only dogs.
Pits and pit mixes are not just dogs to be put down. Humans made them. Humans can undo that trait in them.
My neighbors have beautiful pit. Unfortunately, one of them used her to taunt my pit mix boy. It is the owners and breeders who fuck these pups up.
But my original statement still stands. Once a dog has tasted blood, separate them. It’s the only way.
hitchhiker
Oh, Devon and Seth . . . you’re beloved, just like your brother. This crazy currently-heartbroken community desperately wishes you both well. Please take care of each other & get a little rest.
Fuck, what a giant, rough, sadness. Gotta find a way to bring some meaning to it.
ErikaF
Longtime lurker. John, my heart goes out to you and your sister and her husband. It looks like it was a momentary lapse, and an wrong place at the wrong time situation. I know the feelings are running high – guilt and horror and grief and shame and pain for everyone. I know they didn’t mean any of it, and it was a tragic, terrible accident. This is a terrible thing to happen amongst family, and I hope your relationship with your sister stays firm.
I won’t make any comments about the fate of Kiwi – no matter what the decision is, it will be a hard one. All I ask is that the love that your sister feels towards Kiwi be counterbalanced with the actuality of the situation and probable future. My condolences to you all.
? Martin
@InternetDragons:
Yeah, and even then they’re unpredictable. We’ve got a very sweet corgi. Loves people. Never fusses with other dogs or cats, growls at them, etc. But a birds nest appeared by our front door a few weeks ago. We were able to watch from our window these 3 birds hatch and be fed and all that. Well, the day came for them to fledge and we were returning from an outing with the dog, only to arrive at the front door when one of the babies plopped down onto the ground in a failed flight attempt, and in one move the bird was gone. Ms Martin is still pissed about it, but the dog is still a dog no matter how hard you try and train all of that out of it.
alicia-logic
@ulee:
I did not say any intact male is dangerous. I said that the numbers show that for dogs mauling humans, it is more statistically reliable that they will be intact males than any particular breed. Perhaps you can’t tell the difference, but dogs do differentiate as groups between dogs, humans and non-human animals. Those dogs that will show unprovoked aggression to humans are fairly termed vicious.
I do not know what happened in this case. A dog might approach a cat as prey–it is not human or canine–and attack immediately. We think of cats and dogs as family and are tempted to blur the line. A dog that has not been trained to inhibit this drive in this way very well may not see a cat as any different from a possum, a woodchuck or a rabbit. These are all animals that my dogs have hunted and killed without encouragement from me.
A dog might also approach a cat with interest or curiosity and if that cat showed aggression (hissed, clawed, bit) the dog might fight back. Dogs are not chivalrous and may return aggression well in excess of what is required for mere self-defense. In such a case, the aggression is not entirely unprovoked.
Many, many dogs will show unprovoked aggression to other dogs or other animals but not people. This can be terrible and scary and obviously requires management, but it is well within the range of *normal* canine behavior and declaring extermination to be the only possible response is hysterical and uneducated.
am
@David:
The dog is just fine. The fact that a vet won’t accept your money to put the dog down should make that pretty clear. What you should do is put a note on Craigslist that you inherited an active medium/large-breed dog and you’re unable to properly care for it because of lack of health reasons, or find a no-kill shelter to adopt him out. Get the dog into a better home, like he (and you) deserve.
Angela
Holding you, Devon, Seth and your mom and dad in the Light. It feels like I have been for most of the day.
And once again, the way you, and your family, responds to a tragedy like this one astounds and educates me. Of course you went for a knife, not so of course that you didn’t use it.
Instead of blaming each other, you all are blaming yourselves and talking about how much it hurts.
You’re a mensch, Cole. I hope you sleep better tonight.
ETA – The image of your sister picking Tunch’s claws out of Kiwi’s snout is haunting and heartbreaking (again). Says so much in so few words.
michelle
@ErikaF:
While John and his family live in West Virginia, there is no reason to conclude that his brother is married to his sister.
There is a reason you are a lurker.
ulee
@alicia-logic: You’re right. It just happened to be a pit bull. I’m sure there are many other variables to measure. Just happened to be a pit bull attack. Again.
InternetDragons
@Martin
I had to chuckle at your story about your Corgi (poor baby bird!). We do love them for (sometimes in spite of) their sheer…dog-ness when all is said and done. But there are still those lines that can’t be crossed. It’s like…I can watch my neighbor’s cocker spaniel chase a lizard under the porch without being concerned about his temperament (though oddly, and just as an aside…in my family that includes multiple generations of veterinarians, we all agree that one of the least trustworthy dog breeds in terms of fear-biting is the “cute” cocker spaniel =P). But anyway…
It’s the dogs that can’t control their aggression, can’t discern the difference between random lizard and the family’s cat, never choose to ‘soft mouth’ something but instead always just attack full-on. Those guys can be heartbreaking.
And Corgis are little devils – stubborn and funny and they know how to run the household! I love them, though, and I bet yours is a cutie even if having a baby bird fall in front of his face like manna from the heavens was just too much for him to pass up, lol.
Suzanne
@? Martin: I had an old, fat, sickly cocker spaniel who walked within a limp from a torn ACL. Once, she snatched a pigeon right out of the air and swallowed it whole in, quite literally, under a second. I still have no idea how that happened. Animals be animals.
ErikaF
@michelle: I’m sorry, my bad (very very bad). I will go back to lurking now.
Fred Fnord
Not that anyone cares, because it’s easy to just hate a breed of dogs, but there are more people admitted to ERs for lab bites than pit bites. Even in areas where pit bulls are quite numerous.
But it’s easier to believe that there are just evil dog breeds and if you avoid them, everything will be fine. Just as it is easier to believe that there are evil breeds of humans…
LesGS
Blessings on all the Coles, critters & humans alike. I’ve been worried about Seth and Devon for days, and about what this would do to your relationship with them. I’m so relieved you’re talking to one another.
Being one of those people whose face was chomped by a dog as a kid, I’m not really comfortable around them. I like them, but I don’t trust them. Maybe Kiwi needs to be muzzled at all times, unless s/he’s secured in Devon’s home.
I’m going to miss Tunch, even though I’ve never met him in the flesh. My Cattus Maximus is growing a little weary of all the extra squeezes he’s been getting the last few days.
am
@Craig:
Did you read the “Other Studies” section in the article you linked to? Your claims are not uncontroversial, and undermined by data from the same article Wikipedia article you cited.
I wish people could talk honestly about how certain kinds of tough guys keep pits (for personal pets and fighting), and how dogs owned by these guys are turn are more likely to be antisocial/poorly socialized and not neutered. I would bet a regression analysis on some good data about this would show the socialization and being unaltered are bigger factors than breed.
What probably makes that difficult is that dogs cause so few deaths, only ~30 in the US per year. That is not a lot of data. To compare, accidental poisoning kills 30,000 per year. There are a lot more bites, about 5 million, but I can’t find those broken down by breed.
Gemina13
I’ve had your brother and sister in my thoughts since I read that Tunch died. There’s no way I could ever have hard feelings towards them. What happened was an awful, horrible accident, and I know in my heart they’re grieving as much for Tunch as you are.
Elizabelle
@ErikaF:
Oh no. Don’t stick to lurking. Good to see you here.
But your surmise and michelle’s response were amusing.
kgc16
@ErikaF: I don’t understand why some people have to be rude to make a point. You made a mistake, but there’s no reason she should insult you. Boggles the mind.
kgc16
@Elizabelle: ErikaF wasn’t the first person on the thread to make that mistake. The first part of Michelle’s response was amusing; the second part was just unnecessary.
Gravie
I was shocked and so sad to read the post about Tunch. I don’t post often but keenly feel the sense of community that you have created. There is a lot of love here, and a lot of crazy, contentious squabbling just like brothers and sisters in any family. But clearly, in your family love dominates and I hope Devon and Seth can forgive themselves as you have forgiven them. In the end, that’s all that matters.
normal liberal
I’ve been limited to lurking all weekend (pretty much as always) and wondering how John’s brother and sister were holding up in these terrible circumstances, and with the added worry of Mr. Cole’s injury.
It’s a testament to John’s good heart that he has asked this community to support his siblings as well as himself. I went back to the RIP thread to read Devon’s post, and it was evident that she felt such anguish, and I’m sure Seth is the same. You so plainly have a bond that you all cherish, and it will see you through.
Requiescat in pace, Tunch. (I’ve been remembering the posts about his efforts to befriend Zsa Zsa.). Comfort and peace for all the Coles.
alicia-logic
@am:
It’s a while since I looked into this (as an interested dog-owner, not a statistician) and as I recall even when you have bite numbers by breed, it was as reliable as the physician’s interpretation of an all-too-often vague description from a victim (often a child.)
With the exception of a few popular, easily identifiable breeds, most people are pretty hopeless at identification. I had some friends who owned a black greyhound that people constantly mistook for a Doberman. And despite all the pit-bull hysteria, the breed of my own Amstaff was often not recognized.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@ErikaF: Don’t pay any attention to her.
am
@alicia-logic:
We may have been looking at the same CDC study earlier (http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf)
“Although the fatality data are concerning, one must broaden the context to consider both fatal and nonfatal bites when deciding on a course of action […] Several interacting factors affect a dog’s propensity to bite, including heredity, sex, early experience, socialization and training, health (medical and behavioral), reproductive status, quality of ownership and supervision, and victim behavior. For example, a study in Denver of medically-attended dog bites in 1991 suggested that male dogs are 6.2 times more likely to bite than female dogs, sexually intact dogs are 2.6 times more likely to bite than neutered dogs, and chained dogs are 2.8 times more likely to bite than unchained dogs. […] To decrease the risk of dog bites, several communities have enacted breed-specific restrictions or bans. In general, these have focused on pit bull-type dogs and Rottweilers. However, breeds responsible for human DBRF have varied over time.”
I think you make an important point that identification is probably biased to false positives. A quick look turned up http://www.beyondthemythmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/Scott-Dowd-Breed-Indentification-test.pdf and even though the site is not neutral the study seems well constructed.
I’m just sadden as someone modestly competent with statistics and a dog lover. My wife and I work with rescues, and some of the most gentle and sweet natured dogs were AmStaffs or mixes.
snarkyspice
Seth and Devon, I don’t know if you’ll ever see this, but I have been thinking about you ever since John posted the news. I can’t imagine how you feel, but I am sending lots of love over from the UK and I just hope time heals. You sound like a wonderful family and you’re so lucky to have each other. Take care of yourselves.
Medicine Man
I just checked in after being offline for the weekend. Fuck, I’m sorry to hear about your cat, John Cole.
It is hard and I don’t have much useful to say. You gave him a really good life and he didn’t suffer.
Debbie(aussie)
I think I should set up an auto comment:)
I love this place, filled with wonderful caring people. Have been send vibes of love and good thoughts since I read about dear Tunch. To the entire Cole clan, my sincerest best wishes. No blame, just love. {{{{{{Debs}}}}}
alicia-logic
@am: Thanks for the links. I don’t recall seeing the Dowd survey before, although of course the issues it highlights have been known to responsible fanciers of the breeds targeted by breed-bans for years. (It’s decades, now, isn’t it? *sigh*)
The material you quoted covers a lot of truth. My AmStaff was one of those once-in-a-lifetime dogs–he wore his heart on his sleeve and was made of devotion. I’ll never stop missing him now that’s he’s gone. But game terriers are not for everyone or every situation and I wouldn’t recommend one to someone without dog training experience and a realistic understanding of canine drives.
Of course, I would make the same recommendation for any powerful breed of dog with high prey or defense drives, which is going to include most of the working and herding group, many terriers and some sight-hounds.
Cain
@Old Dan and Little Ann:
I think that’s your problem right there, “asshole neighbors” The dog is sometimes just the reflection of it’s owners. Even then I think though any animal needs to be carefully watched regardless of breed. I don’t let any child play with my cat without my supervision.
Cain
I’m sure Seth and Devon are in a special kind of hell. I hope that the entire Cole family will get past this. I can’t imagine how they are feeling right now. I think though when Devon is back in town a group hug and cry is in order and John needs to look straight into their eyes and tell them that it’s not their fault and there is nothing to forgive or something to that effect.
Kiwi though is going to cause some tension in the family. I’m not sure if John can keep it together seeing Tunch’s murderer all the time. It might be best if Kiwi was re-homed for sake of getting past this incident. It’s something to think of.
Gustopher
I’m not quite of the “all pit bulls should be put down” camp, but I do think people should stop breeding the damned things. They aren’t more likely to attack than other dogs, but they are much more likely to do significant damage.
I hope your family gets through this — and in time I know they will — and that Kiwi isn’t given the opportunity to do something like this again. Whether he is put down, or whether he is simply kept on a leash in a fenced yard and not brought visiting, or what… I have no idea what the right thing to do is, and I am glad I don’t have to try to figure it out.
am
@alicia-logic:
I’m glad the links were of interest. It was a pleasure reading your posts, though I wish it were under very different circumstances.
Sarah in Brooklyn
Sending my thoughts to Devon and Seth. I can’t imagine how awful they must feel. One of the things I love about reading this blog is your relationship with your family, which I deeply envy. I know you’ll get through this, because you love each other so much. I’m so sorry you all have to go through this pain.
the lost puppy
I’m not going to gush on about forgiveness at the moment. That is some heavy, heavy shit for your siblings, especially your sister for bringing him to the home, knowing how you felt.
Unfortunately, people often have to pay a heavy price for poor judgments, I know I have, most of us do. It’s going to take some time.
And, I’m sorry, but you are the one who still has to bear the loss and here you are feeling guilty about them already. Let it go for now, you have enough to deal with.
Betty Cracker
Devon sounds a lot like my sister, who is a very generous and kind-hearted woman. My sister also rescues problem dogs, and she’s had issues with them being aggressive toward humans (it’s actually a wonder she’s never been sued).
Anyhoo, no moralizing from me, just wishes for peace and healing for Devon and Seth. Heartbreak is bad enough, but heartbreak + guilt is even worse. Neither meant any harm, and I hope they soon find peace.
RosiesDad
John:
Dogs have variable amount of prey drive (so do cats for that matter) and this is less a breed-specific thing than an individual dog thing.
The pits I know and treat in my practice are all over the park where prey drive is concerned. And I know a standard poodle, who is an otherwise lovely dog, who killed one of his owner’s 3 cats. (The others were immediately moved to the owner’s brother’s home where there were no dogs.) And I know many other dogs who are otherwise terrific who are cat killers. They range from smallish terriers to retrievers (lab and golden) and rescued greyhounds who can’t distinguish between the fake bunny at the track and Mr. Mittens.
So try not to hate on the pit bulls.
Also, I feel for your brother and sister, who must feel horribly guilty. This was a difficult lesson learned in the most terrible way.
Applejinx
It’s so interesting how this is a little microcosm of such bigger issues.
John was fortunate to not kill the dog with a knife. Why? Because that dog must be kept alive even in solitary confinement and treated like a bomb? Must be protected no matter how dangerous it is?
No: because John is part of a society and must delegate some of that decision (and especially implementation) to others in society. He cannot, he DID not take the whole thing into his own hands and personally kill that dog. He’s got to bear witness as an interested party to what that dog did to his family, and cooler heads gotta decide.
I do not for one second grant his sister final authority over what ought to happen. She might be no more capable of really looking at the situation and coming to a hard conclusion than the dog is of not savaging other living things in a snap instinctive action. We are all animals of differing capacities.
Society’s supposed to be a collaborative way to rise above animalistic behavior.
That means lots of things. It means it’s wrong for a Zimmerman to instinctively kill a Trayvon Martin, much less place himself in situations where he’ll do stuff like that. It means it’s wrong for a Kiki to kill a Tunch who’s just minding his own business on his own territory. And I feel it means it is wrong for Devon to shelter a Kiki and express an intention to prevent Kiki from being exposed to risky situations—after already failing to do exactly that.
Devon can survive the emotions of abandoning Kiki to a painless and very civilized death—one far more civilized than Kiki dealt out. If she has to, she can cope with that. I’m not so sure she can cope with Kiki maiming or killing a child, and some risks should not be run.
I am very likely going to lose the two very sweet cats I’ve got left, one day (lost two to cars, one to cancer, down to just a couple). They are determinedly outdoor cats and won’t be dissuaded from the lifestyle they know, and there are pit owners in town, and some other dogs around. I’m not certain quite where I draw the line: you always draw a line somewhere, and test it against what society will cosign.
I am sick and tired of where society’s drawn the line on some things, such as gun nuts and SYG and disenfranchising people, and Balloon Juice got me into politics, and got me to go physically work for the Obama campaign in New Hampshire last election, and we got society to elect Barack Obama, by God, though some folks did not want that ever to happen.
In the much smaller world of Coles and cats and dogs, I think you gotta bring in more of ‘society’ and start to explore the question of whether it is a responsible act to rescue that dog. Dogs gotta bite but society will not always let ’em (especially when they bite babies and children). Rescuers gotta rescue—but society will not always let ’em.
You’ve got to involve more people and get as much of a consensus as you can, it cannot be ‘most emotional person wins’. That’s not how we do civilization.
TomG
John, I’m so sorry to hear about your loss. Tunch was a big ole part of your blog (and your life) and I always enjoyed your posts about him and your dogs.
I seldom comment, but wanted you to know I feel for you. My family has 2 dogs now (giant schnauzer and lhasa opsa), and used to own cats but my wife is allergic to their fur so we can’t ever have any others.
Betty Cracker
@Applejinx: As you say, it’s a matter of where you draw the line. You said your cats are outdoor cats and can’t be dissuaded from being outside. And yet, there are people who would condemn you for that, noting that cats kill more than three billion songbirds in the US every year (not to mention other small critters they kill — 20 billion all told) and that you could keep them in if you were determined to do so. I’m not criticizing you. I don’t know what the answer is. There are no easy answers, not for the Coles, not for anyone.
the lost puppy
I didn’t mean to sound like an a-hole. You are a forgiving big-hearted person, Mr. Cole, and that is wonderful thing
Jilli
@Mothra1:
“I worry about any dog that is capable of this kind of attack.”
Then you have to worry about just about every dog.
I empathize with John and Tunch because I experienced a somewhat similar situation. We had an 8 year old Rottie, and brought a Rottie puppy into our home. Both were outside alone for 3 minutes while I ran back into the house. In those few minutes our adult dog – who didn’t have a mean, vicious or unpredictable bone in his body – killed the puppy. I couldn’t blame the dog, I blamed myself. I made a bad decision and it resulted in a horrible outcome. I don’t believe that my rottie intended to kill, he was more than likely playing or just curious, the puppy probably looked like a squeaky toy to him. All dogs are capable, situations cause consequences. I’ve beaten myself up about this over the years, but never blamed the dog. I don’t mean to sound harsh, but that’s just the reality I’ve arrived at through my experience. Sure, there are vicious and unpredictable dogs – but since we can’t read their minds, we have to assume that every dog is capable of such actions whether intentional or unintentional. I feel for John, believe me I do.
maye
I agree 100 percent with JC. The dog should be put down. And I love dogs more than people.
Kelly McGee
I know your pain. We rescue Boston terriers, and one of them killed my husband’s cat while I was at the store. She had never show any aggression towards the cats ,she had always ignored them. I have no idea what happened, I came back to a dog with scratches on her face and a dead cat. We made the rescue take the dog back and find another foster home, but nothing could replace Joe’s cat. I don’t think Tunch was killed by Kiwi because she was a pitbull any more than I think Roxy killed Osiris because she was a Boston Terrier. They both did it because they had a high prey drive and were cat aggressive. Sadly any type of dog can do this, a 50# pitbull or a 20# boston. It doesn’t bring either cat back ,but it does help to know that neither dog did it because they were evil but because they were dogs with all the instincts that they are born with.
I hope that another cat will find you and try to heal your broken heart. You will never replace Tunch ,but perhaps another cat will rescue you that was sent by Tunch. Again, I am so sorry for your loss.
PS I lost our first child at two days old. Everything that you are going through is similar to losing a child. Please allow yourself to grieve and ignore any asshole that tells you to move on it was just a cat. If I know anything as a grieving Mom, it is that well meaning but clueless people will soon make light of your pain because they are unable to understand. Just walk away from them, and know that what you feel is real and normal and something that you must go through in your own time no matter what they think.
Big big hugs I bet Tunch is up there harassing my daughter Brigit with his antics. <3
Denali
Thanks for sharing the details of what happened – that must have been very difficult.
LIfe is very difficult, and one of the hardest things to face is that the choices we make sometimes have terrible consequences.
My daughter has a seven year old and a lab and I worry every day about a terrible accident involving the child and the lab. My daughter would not listen if I told her to get rid of the dog, so it is very hard to let go.
I hope that your sister does the right thing and has the dog put down before she harms a child. I love dogs. Sorry for giving my opinion, but rather than, for example, excusing people who leave guns around toddlers who pick up the guns and shoot their siblings, I think we have to advise others to make responsible choices.
alicia-logic
@Jilli:
This is so true it should be written in sky-writing.
The biggest danger of the myth of “bad breeds” is that it reinforces the notion that there are “safe breeds”. And any breed of dog is capable of aggression. I don’t think many fanciers of GSDs, Rottweilers, APBTs, AmStaffs, Dobermans or the like is going to suggest that some breeds aren’t more likely to possess strong prey and defense drives, or that some breeds aren’t more powerful and therefore able to cause more harm in a short time and that therefore, the owners of such breeds have a special responsibility to train, contain and supervise their dogs.
But there is no breed of dog that I would allow unsupervised access to a child, or that I would tie out unsupervised where members of the public could contact the dog, or that I would allow to roam at large, most especially as an un-neutered male, etc.
The only time a dog in my care ever made an unprovoked attack on another person’s pet, it was a Collie/Beagle mix owned by my boyfriend of the time. We were teens and lived close enough to each other that his dog, an intact male allowed to roam, would come visit me himself. He was a sweet dog and was pals with my own mixed breed (spayed) bitch. One afternoon, he was in my living room and without warning burst out through the screened patio door and hurtled toward a small poodly-like dog someone was walking on lead.
I got there in time to grab him before any damage (beyond terror) was done but I learned a lesson that day about what containing and controlling a dog actually means and that even a smallish dog, with feathery-soft ears, silky auburn hair and liquid eyes can deploy his weaponry with astonishing speed and effectiveness.
Betty Cracker
@alicia-logic: Agreed. I had to put one of my boxers (female) in a headlock to prevent her from eating my mother’s pom/chihuahua mix once, and she is the sweetest dog.
Animals are unpredictable. Boxers are known as a goofy, fun-loving, child-friendly breed, and they are. But they are also powerful as hell, and a momentary lapse of attention can have tragic consequences.
My heart goes out to all the Coles. No one meant for this to happen, and they are all grieving. I’m not going to judge anyone.
schrodinger's cat
This incident reminds me of my boss kitteh and my friend’s German shepherd. Boss kitteh would boss this huge German shepherd batted her on the nose with claws out, when she tried to eat from his bowl. The dog continued eating and ignored my cat, but never for a moment did I think that his life was in danger. I mean now that I think back,she was capable of killing boss cat if she had wanted to.
Observer
Tragic situation all around. Regrettable that the dog must be put down, but that is the only responsible choice.
And eemom’s perfect record of never once contributing helpfully to the discussion remains intact.
john b
“Regrettable that the dog must be put down, but that is the only responsible choice.”
really? a dog was left unsupervised with a cat and killed it. that is not reason by itself to put it down. would we put down a dog that killed a rabbit? a cat that killed a mouse?
a dog bites a person? sure. a dog bites another dog (especially unprovoked)? sure again.
a dog bites an animal it could easily perceive as prey that it hasn’t seen before? that doesn’t seem to be an offense that warrants killing an animal.
JCR
@Flying Squirrel Girl: I have exactly the same mix (RR/BMC)! I do trust my boy with other animals b/c he has a low prey drive and a gentle, submissive nature. He’ll chase a cat if it runs, but does so in a playful way, and is respectful of the ones that stand their ground. Very different energy than when he’s hunting squirrels, and he has caught and killed a squirrel more than one. He is, after all, a hunting dog, despite his low prey drive. But he has a strong concept of “pack,” and understands that all pets, even other people’s, are potentially “pack” and need to be respected. Maybe that’s what Kiwi is lacking. Maybe your girl doesn’t lack that, and can be trained to take her cues from you as to what is legitimate prey, and what is not. Most well-socialized dogs do understand the difference btwn people and prey, and pack and non-pack, and so chasing a squirrel or a strange cat doesn’t mean they’ll even consider going after a kid.
JCR
@Fred Fnord: I agree that PBs are no more likely to bite humans than are Labs, Dachshunds, Cocker Spaniels, etc., but the problem with them is that when they do bite, they don’t release. Instead, they clamp down with those insanely powerful jaws and shake their victim with those muscle-bound necks, and do their best to destroy their target. Thus, they do a disproportional amount of damage compared to other dogs. Added to that, is their strong prey drive, tendency towards dog aggression, and stubborn natures. Because any dog can have an aggressive moment, no matter how sweet they are 99.9% of the time, I would never own a PB any more than I would own an assault rifle, or collect unexploded bombs.
MathInPA
@JCR: Pit bulls do not have the supposed locking jaws. That’s a persistent myth and a problematic one. They have strong jaws, yes, but so do mastiffs and a lot of other breeds. It’s hardly unique, nor is their strength. It is also worth noting that the supposed “tendency towards dog aggression” is also hard to separate from the fact that they’re abused into attacking other animals. If you take the child of two sweet-hearted people from an early age and constantly make all dominance about violence, positively reward them for getting into fights and stuff, you’ll end up with a bully regardless of background. Pits were originally bred from animals with as diverse uses as hunting, herding, and even family companions. Those uses hardly went away with the sickening rise of bull/bear baiting (the former based on immobilization and herding techniques, and the former hardly needing a tendency towards aggressive behavior against a clear threat to the pack), and even after the stabilization of the breed and some involvement in the even worse dog-fighting rings in the 1800s, they were still bred and trained for those activities as well.
Please don’t compare animals to machines. They’re not. The plasticity of brains, especially in creatures bred for intelligence, means that it’s possible to train for a wide range of behaviors, and it is very hard to separate adult behavior that comes from training than that which comes from instinct without very, very careful scientific investigation, most of which hasn’t been done.
Deb T
I’m sending all my positive thoughts to you and your family. Tunch’s death may affect the dogs. I’ve seen that effect myself with my own animals. It may just be reaction to your own sadness.
I know how much this hurts. I admire your loving attitude toward your sister.
Years ago, when a neighbor’s dog came into my yard and nearly killed my little dog, I told the neighbor if I ever saw that dog in my yard again, I’d kill it with a baseball bat. I meant it even though I didn’t blame the dog but the owner. I’m glad I wasn’t tested. My little dog survived after a surgery and having to have a drain in her neck for 2 weeks.
Good old Tunch. I miss him.
MathInPA
@Deb T: Animal grief is a real and terrible thing; you’re absolutely right that it will probably affect the dogs. After our older dog, Remus, died, the cats were in clear mourning for weeks/months afterward. It’s even more horrible than with people; you can sit someone down, even a kid (in fact, IMO, it’s better to be honest with a kid than not) and talk to them about a pet or person dying. You can prepare them for it if it’s coming, like it was in Remus. He had undiscovered heart condition triggered by nothing more than a hot day a year ago coupled with running and playing for a few hours with former packmates from my mother-in-law’s that he hadn’t seen for a while, and while we tried to find a way to fight it, his heart just couldn’t keep enough pressure in his veins. I’m not going to go into any more detail here. But… we were able to prepare for it. To try to fight for it. And when the end happened, we did the adult thing, let the other people who loved him know so they could say goodbye, and did what we had to do. Even if it’s something sudden, with a person, you can talk things through, help them grow past it.
But what did our cats know? They knew that the dog that had more or less been The Pack Elder Beta and Fun Big Brother from kittenhood for two of them, early adolescence for another two, and more or less grown up with the fifth, was suddenly sick. That he couldn’t run around and play with them any more. And then, one day, he didn’t come home. They were inconsolable for weeks, depressed for months, and when we adopted our two newest dogs, the shyer kitten and adolescent hid themselves and the more clingy kitten and adolescent hated them. The kitten even smacked poor Sammy’s nose so hard it drew blood several times. That wasn’t HIS dog. He wanted HIS dog back. Sammy, though, is an utter sweetie, and would always back off, which is why even the Shyest Kitten (well, adolescent/young adult now, one year old!) Ever has a total dogcrush on him now whenever he comes out of hiding.
It’s like that for every pet. We take deeply social creatures– yes, that myth that cats are antisocial is BS, too, they form colonies in the wild and are MUCH less destructive if adopted in pairs– and breed them to not only socialize better with US, but with each other and other domesticated animals. We breed them for intelligence, for loyalty, and for companionship. Even completely wild animals show love, emotional bonding, and at the end, grief. How much more it must be for the domesticates? And you can’t tell them. You can’t explain it to them. We can communicate, but it’s not in the way that most humans are used to using, and it can be so hard to help them.
… Bleh. Yeah. When you lose an animal, take real good care of the others. They know, and they love. And as John Cole saw up there, some of them not only know, but will help you too. I don’t think there’s a single minute of my time with Remus or Golden Boy before him that I would trade for anything, not even to be rid of the grief of losing them.
John Cole
@john b: What’s your address? If you live on the East Coast, I can have Kiwi to you by tomorrow night. I’d kiss your pets and kids tonight, though.
JCR
@MathInPA: I realize my wording wasn’t clear, but I wasn’t trying to suggest that a dog is like a machine, but rather that there are certain risks that I wouldn’t take. I compare owning dogs to owning a weapon because they’re predators, and as much as we like to think of them as our fuzzy darlings, they are equipped physically and psychologically to attack in certain circumstances (as are human beings). That aspect of their nature needs to be recognized and respected. I certainly pay attention to my own large, powerful dog’s natural predatory tendencies, and am careful to keep them in check.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree about the nature/nurture aspect of dog breeds. I like pit bulls, but I do think certain traits have been encouraged in the breed, just like retrievers. You note that they have been bred from herding and other types; what traits do you think were encouraged? If you believe all a dog needs is love, and those traits will magically vanish, I wish you (and your neighbors) lots of luck with that.
MathInPA
@JCR: To quote the United Kennel Club:
“HISTORY
Sometime during the nineteenth century, dog fanciers in England, Ireland and Scotland began to experiment with crosses between Bulldogs and Terriers, looking for a dog that combined the gameness of the terrier with the strength and athleticism of the Bulldog. The result was a dog that embodied all of the virtues attributed to great warriors: strength, indomitable courage, and gentleness with loved ones. Immigrants brought these bull-and-terrier crosses to the United States. The American Pit Bull Terrier’s many talents did not go unnoticed by farmers and ranchers who used their APBTs as catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt, to drive livestock, and as family companions. Today, the American Pit Bull Terrier continues to demonstrate its versatility, competing successfully in Obedience, Rally Obedience, Tracking, Agility, Lure Coursing, Dock Jumping and Weight Pulls, as well as Conformation.”
And, yes. They were also bred for fights as well, which the UKC isn’t going to talk about. But it wasn’t their exclusive breeding purposes. And I have to tell you, calling them predators is not, actually, a sign they’re more dangerous. What would you be comparing them too– the highly aggressive and territorial herbivores? Once you get to dog weight and above, especially herd animals, if they think they can shove you off– and that includes goring as well as ramming– they will do so, and with much less provocation than predators. Even rabbits will try to disembowel you with kicks if they get cornered or feel threatened. The reason herbivores tend to be much more aggressive than carnivores/omnivores is that they have the option of just grazing to recover when injured. A predator, if injured, will probably starve to death if it doesn’t have a pack, and even if it does, they will sometimes try to avoid the pack in order to not be a burden; they have to be very careful about the risks they take.
That’s why, speaking of, even if you’ve got a “shy” cat or one of the ones who likes alone time, you need to spot-check your pets periodically. One of our kitties, an elder gentleman who’s had some pretty terrible life experiences (including being shot at with BBs and trapped and sent to the pound by a guy who KNEW whose pet he was… but that’s another rant) has developed some serious overgrooming problems. He’s also always been the master hider of the pack, and when he doesn’t want to be found, it’s pretty hard to do so. About two months ago, he savagely damaged all four of his feet trying to work some litter out, and was unable to get up to where we’ve put the food, out of doggy reach. He also couldn’t make the jump over our doggy gate in the house. He dragged himself out to our bookshelf-and-furnishings filled front room and avoided us. Thankfully, he’s not the first kitty we’ve had with issues like that, so we were able to find him and get him to a vet. Watch your animals, especially the hiders and the shy ones. Er… digression.
You’re still not looking at what pit bulls were actually bred to do, and the manner in which they were housed. Bull-baiting and bear-baiting were pack bloodsports for the most part. You had to have them know and trust each other. Family companions and guard dogs have to be trained to warn off strangers rather than just mindlessly attack them for any breeder who wants a useful dog, rather than some idiot’s machismo banner. Similarly, hunting dogs are not actually trained to just bolt after the nearest prey species– because, again, that’s not useful. Getting three hundred squirrels because Fido was hardwired to attack the nearest small thing running away from him isn’t going to please Baron Wants-A-Stag. Herding dogs have to know the difference between herding and injuring, and they can’t be easily distracted from the herd they’re assigned to keep moving/protect.
It’s only with the last two to three centuries that the dogfighting was a part of it, and specifically pit bulls had only about 30-40 or so years of breeding before the bans started, and suddenly all of those other purposes were even more important. That is to say, we see some of the more recognizable ancestors of the modern pit bull around 1817, the bans on bull-baiting/bear baiting around 1835 (and hence the switch to the more vicious, easier to conceal dog/rat fighting), and bans on dogfighting in most US States by the 1860s, with sadly stupid lax enforcement. For full disclosure, I should note that the switch between the bear/bull to dog/rat is based off UK information; I’m not sure when it happened for the U.S. And on another digression, I sometimes find it depressing that when we try to ban one evil activity, people manage to find a way to make it worse.
That being said, breeders aren’t magical, and while I’m sure that there were additional fighting lines, since enforcement was problematic, the majority of pit bulls were bred for other purposes. Even the dogfighting rings couldn’t take animals too far; a hereditary berserker isn’t going to survive very long and would be inordinately hard to breed. I’m sure there was crossing, almost certainly in order to prevent overwhelming berserk tendencies. People might have talked up the viciousness for the machismo side, but there are some significant problems with hereditary insanity, especially over a fairly short time period.
So, as you say, let’s take a look at what the traits the legal types were after. Strength, athleticism, eagerness to please, gameness, and loyalty are the primary ones I can see. That fourth, ‘gameness’ is a measure of courage and persistence. It’s sometimes used as a shorthand for ‘persisting in a fight after injured’ but that’s not the extent of what it actually is. It also means a dog who will keep trying social activities, or herding, or even labor activities, long after it would frustrate other dogs. It means a dog who will persist in the third quality, trying to please its owner, and that’s where we get into trouble, of course, abusive owners, again and again. Other traits that I’ve seen mentioned by different societies include intelligence, family affection, mastiff-style gentleness (yes, I’m serious), and agility. To quote the UKC again:
“The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable”
Referring specifically to the pit bull “type”– ie, APBTs and ASTs bred to fight– the ASPCA says:
“Despite the fact that pit bulls were bred to fight with each other, early breeders took pride in producing dogs that were trustworthy and friendly to people. Handlers bathed their opponent’s dog before a match, stood in the pits with the battling dogs and often pulled them apart to end a fight. Any dog who behaved aggressively toward a person was culled, or killed, to avoid passing on such an undesirable trait.”
The spike in kills and attacks is very recent. These were, especially in the early half of the 20th century, literally kid-friendly dogs, trusted with assisting in raising and protecting children. They lived in homes that had various other pets, large and small.
Now, I’m not, nor ever have been, saying that “all they need is love.” The thing you’re missing is that pits need the same thing ALL dogs need: early socialization and training. A small dog whose yap-yap-yap grrrrr go for the ankles is laughed at and disregarded by its owners is as much of a danger to cats and infants, and to an extent, medium-sized dogs, as a pit, and possibly more if the pit’s actually been trained right. Dogs and cats are both highly social and highly territorial creatures. It’s not the predator in them that causes fights– it’s socialization and territoriality. That’s the big thing, and if you do not hit that early and often, you are looking for trouble. That being said, the adage that you can’t teach old dogs new tricks is a flat-out lie; it’s just harder, and requires more work. Every dog I’ve ever owned, in houses full of cats, was a rescue dog.
That brings us into what probably caused the tragedy. I’m not talking “kill instinct.” Nor “predation drive.” If we assume that John’s sister has been training the dog, then there is one thing that will cause animal injury and death again and again (and it won’t always be the animal you think): unsupervised mixing. It doesn’t matter what animals you put in what mix– the outsider is nervous and fears being away from The Territory, the insider is afraid of danger to the pack and territory, whatever. One of them’s going to act, and at that point, it doesn’t matter what breed you have, utter than complete extremes.
You do not, full stop, ever, ever EVER allow animals to mix unsupervised. Not ever. There is no possible “too many” times that can be repeated. It doesn’t matter if you’re talking a medium-sized sweet tempered lab who grooms your cats and acts as mommy to them (and again, not an exageration. Dogs and cats adore each other once socialized), if you let a dog and a dog, a dog and a cat, or a cat and a cat into a room, yard, whatever, alone, you are putting them both at risk. Especially for clingy or needy animals, new animals or visitors can be viewed as threats. Is it 100%? No, of course not. Animals have a wide variety of reactions and personalities, just like people, but unlike people, our best training and exposure is only guesswork. I suppose it’s guesswork in people, too, but I have to hope it’s less.
So what’s causing this? Some of it’s just lack of experience. We’ve gotten detached from our roots, and while I don’t romanticize my rural current environments any more than my former urban ones, and there’s this freaking stupid tendency to assume that we don’t have to learn how to train, deal with, or discipline animals we’re unfamiliar with. It’ll all work out naturally! No, genius, you put a human being in isolation and have them only deal with a small number of people for most of their life and permit them unmitigated childhood aggression and you’re training them that such actions are OK.
It’s toxic machismo. An unrelenting, hostile, aggressive, vicious pursuit of a semi-mythical super alpha maleness that has little to no historical precedent, coupled with a psychotic constant mantra of control control control. We teach people, generally men, that they have to be constantly aggressive and display certain signs of that aggressiveness. Of viciousness. Not in classrooms– though some do– but in what behaviors we condone, what behaviors we reward, and what behaviors we ruthlessly teach them to suppress. We teach them that it’s okay to be aggressive fucks, and reward them for it. We teach them that it’s their heir and right and anyone who interferes with it is to be distrusted and destroyed. And ultimately, we teach them that it’s their right to enforce that on others– and people and animals both suffer.
In this case, pits get a horrible reputation, are abused, act like abused dogs, and then get a worse reputation. Then everyone’s told LOOK OUT FOR THIS DOG! BEWARE THIS FORM! FEAR! FEAR! I remember reading a study lately showing that there’s a horrible false positive rate on pit bull IDs, which is driving up crime reports. Then we see the data and the cycle has two wheels…
*snorts* Poor socialization, no confrontation of/encouragement of aggression, forced into a social mode, continuing cycle of abuse. If someone shows a mirror up to modern day society, it will probably show the image of the Nightmare American Phantom Devil Pit Bull we’ve forged for ourselves. Or maybe that’s just the wannabe cartoonist in me.
john b
@John Cole: @John Cole:
you see how that’s a responsible choice aside from killing the dog? finding a place where the dog is wanted. thanks for agreeing with me.
Paul in KY
@AnnaN: I think Kiwi should have known that Tunch was not a prey animal. Since she did not, it means (to me) that she must be sorta stupid & for that kind of animal (pit bull), being stupid can have major consequences.
I would vote to have her euthenaised.
RIP, Tunch. Your floofiness now adorns heaven. Say hello to Annie up there.
lawnorder
I don’t think it is my place to vote on whether someone else’s dog be euthanized but I do know this: My German Sheppard bit someone and drew blood and I never let her alone outside again. The person is fine, no stitches, just a scratch and thankfully didn’t press charges but we took it seriously.
I took her to our dog trainer the day after and Shelbie was diagnosed as a “fear biter” which would make her behavior unpredictable. Anytime she felt gravely threatened she would bite. We had intensive training with her for 3 months but having kids and other pets, it was just too risky to have her. Fortunately a friend with a small farm took her in, and she now is a great guard dog for him. But she is on a fenced area and with electronic fence, least she escapes and bites some neighbor.
I would recommend that you never let that dog into your house again, but knowing how family is… Keep a muzzle that fits her handy and demand that she uses it if she is ever at your house. And make sure to lock any small animal / pet away from her. Fear biters or hunters do not stop biting / hunting. If the owners want to keep them they must be extra vigilant and never take the dog out of their house unsupervised. And preferably muzzled. The risk is just too great, no one can guess what will set off a fear biter, particularly when the dog is outside it’s home.