Ah, the inexorable March of History. From John Grey’s TNR review of a Margaret Thatcher biography:
… When, after several unsuccessful attempts elsewhere, she presented herself as a potential parliamentary candidate before Conservative Party members in Finchley in 1958, she expected “that the usual prejudice against women will prevail and that I shall probably come the inevitable ‘close second.’ ” When she was selected to stand for the seat, the outgoing member of Parliament, Sir John Crowder, was reported as complaining that the Conservative Central Office had “[imposed] a choice on the constituency between ‘a bloody Jew and a bloody woman.'” But it was in Finchley that Thatcher benefited from the smile of fortune that would accompany several formative moments in her career. Appearing alone, since Denis (whom she had married in December 1951) was in Africa on business, the thirty-two-year-old Thatcher cut a striking figure. Speaking with force and confidence, she impressed the local party chairman so much that he misreported the final vote on her candidacy. “She didn’t actually win,” he told his son on the night. “The man did, but I thought, ‘He’s got a silver spoon in his mouth. He’ll get another seat.’ So I ‘lost’ two of the votes and gave them to her.” Unknowingly, Thatcher entered the House of Commons as the result of a well-meaning act of electoral fraud….
? Martin
Very progressive of the Conservative Party to employ a black person as party chairman at that time.
jenn
Wow. Think how much better the world might be, if not for that party chairman.
Remfin
So will John (and a big chunk of the Internet) admit they got trolled by Greenwald yet again?
Greenwald’s partner was not some innocent being harassed by the government, but someone involved in transferring illegally-obtained classified information. He was a mule. And that isn’t even me saying that or trusting the British government; that’s Greenwald himself.
Mino
We ARE damned!
? Martin
@Remfin: I don’t know what UK law is on this, but in the US, a civilian transferring classified documents is not illegal. The illegal act is solely on the person who leaked them. Everyone after that has 1st amendment protections provided they weren’t part of a conspiracy to leak them. So unless Miranda stole them personally, the US would say he’s fine.
That said. The UK doesn’t have 1st amendment protections. In some ways theirs are better, in others worse. But I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if transferring knowingly illegally obtained documents was itself illegal there (much as knowingly receiving stolen goods is illegal here).
El Cid
ACORN strikes again!
MikeJ
Yutsy around? I see Boise beating UDub in women’s football, 1-0.
Yatsuno
@MikeJ: Well at least the socialist variety is going in a positive direction. Nice part is if the Cougs can fix a few of the handegg issues the season might not suck too badly.
@El Cid: ACORN is just the Illuminati updated for the 21st Century.
Splitting Image
So Thatcher is basically Tracy Flick? Explains a lot. Or wait a minute. Technically she’s really Paul Metzler.
Felonius Monk
@El Cid: You took the ACORN right out of my fingers!
Ruckus
@? Martin:
Nice response to the idea that US law stands for Universal Standards laws instead of United States laws. But don’t you know that everyone else has to abide by our laws? And that they are immoral assholes if they don’t? Isn’t that why we have such a large military, to enforce our laws in every other country?
MikeJ
@Yatsuno: The rule changes are annoying though. Clocks run the wrong way, no stoppage time, two 10-minute golden goal overtimes in case of a tie.
Is this a tournament? They haven’t mentioned anything about it, but UW played Baylor on Friday and this overtime nonsense is only acceptable in a tournament.
MattF
I suppose the local Conservative Party chairman figured, “Democracy means the people rule, and I’m a people.”
Remfin
@? Martin: It was my understanding that basic possession of classified info could be a crime in the UK. But even if it weren’t, I’m fairly certain an intent to transfer intelligence is a crime even in the US, but it’s just absurdly hard to fight against a 1st Amendment defense if you actually tried to prosecute.
Either way, border control has always had special discretion. The US has regarded this kind of behavior/detainment/confiscation as 100% legal since day 1 it was formed regardless of the 1st Amendment, confirmed multiple times by Supreme Court cases.
MikeJ
@? Martin:
The Official Secrets act applies to one only if a person is:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/6/section/1
johio
@Ruckus: can you read? He clearly recognized that US law wouldn’t apply in Britain. And can we please stop with the pathetic need to paint Greenwald as evil and wrong in any and all circumstances? This isn’t a game where the over-riding requirement is to paint the one you disagree with as totally wrong, evil and lacking in any and all aspects? Let’s just substitute Obama Derangement Syndrome with Greenwald Derangement Syndrome. Or we could actually grow up.
raven
@johio: Read this, Greenwald is a fucking asshole.
Yatsuno
@johio: Snark detector. Please to be adjusting.
@MikeJ: Sounds like tourney rules, as normal Pac-12 play is done by standard socialist football rules. Plus playing several teams back-to-back leads one in that direction.
Short Bus Bully
So who’s going to break the news to Sully?
srv
You liberals are all for Positive Discrimination (what they call Affirmative Action in the UK) until it has negative outcomes for you.
Plus she was a war hero, and you all hate those.
Villago Delenda Est
Greenwald’s problem has been, for some time now, that he plays fast and loose with the facts in the service of his agenda.
His fanbois will not worry too much about this (just as the fawning Paultards don’t worry about the flaws of the objects of their veneration), but those of us who are concerned with doing this shit the right way, instead of the easy and expedient way, will raise eyebrows.
Or, like Raven, just write him off as an asshole. A glibertarian asshole whose motivations are subject to speculation and conjecture, because he’s proven himself to be very slippery with fact.
MikeJ
@efgoldman:
More like Grenada and they still lost a warship. Miniscule population, no need for an occupying army to mediate a civil war over the next ten years.
Napoleon
@Remfin:
The authoritarian assholes are out again, like you. How many handles do you post under here?
srv
@MikeJ:
You forget the 80 pot-belly spetsnaz-trained Cuban airport workers who held the Rangers and Airborne at bay for 3 days.
Still, Reagan did win his wars and the Iron Lady was willing to break a few aluminium eggs.
burnspbesq
@? Martin:
You may want to take a fresh look at the relevant provisions of Title 18. I’m about 98 percent certain you’re wrong about that. And the supposed existence of a “first amendment privilege” to possess or receive stolen classified information may be nothing more than DOJ exercising its prosecutorial discretion to not pick that fight until there’s a good reason to have it.
ruemara
@Napoleon: Is he wrong? I distinctly recall “rule of law” being something progressives wanted. Are we past that, if it’s the right people?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@MikeJ:
Somewhere in between. The UK’s soldiers and sailors faced a much greater risk to their lives in the Falklands War than did their US counterparts in Grenada.
Villago Delenda Est
@ruemara:
The Rethuglicans certainly are.
MikeJ
@burnspbesq:
§ 1924 says
In other words, you have to have been trusted with it to begin with to violate (that particular) law.
? Martin
@burnspbesq: Yeah 18 USC § 798 seems to clearly indicate I’m wrong. Miranda clearly knew the documents were classified as did the parties on either end. As you suggest DOJ would probably give discretion as Greenwald is a ‘journalist’ (quotes deliberate) but I don’t believe Miranda has ever been occupied or even pretended to be one. Using him in this role is just strange.
Yatsuno
@? Martin:
If you’re using him as just a courier. I’m thinking Greenwald set this up in order to spark another incident to show the mendacity of the security state. And I don’t buy for a second Miranda is an innocent lamb in that either.
cathyx
@Yatsuno: It’s not strange at all. He needed someone he trusted implicitly to transfer the data. Who else could he use?
Yatsuno
@cathyx: It’s the 21st Century. He didn’t need a courier at all.
Gin & Tonic
@Yatsuno: This. As I’ve said before – this is 2013; there is no reason whatsoever to physically carry anything. If getting the documents from Berlin to Rio was the true objective, there are several ways Greenwald and Poitras could have done that without exposing Miranda. If, on the other hand, the objective were something else…
cathyx
@Yatsuno: With the NSA having access to all of his computer movements, I’d say he does.
cathyx
@Yatsuno: And what if Miranda needed to verbally tell her information?
Gin & Tonic
@cathyx: Encrypted voice.
Yatsuno
@cathyx:
Tell who? He was coming FROM Poitras.
Oh good gravy.
Gin & Tonic
@cathyx: He could have somebody send a hard drive for him (using DHL, FedEx, etc.) If he’s careful, he sends several shipments with the files broken up across drives. If he’s concerned about the NSA tracking him, the last thing he does is use his boyfriend as a mule.
cathyx
@Yatsuno: He doesn’t live with Poitras. Or ok, Poitras had to have him relay information verbally to give to Greenwald.
Gin & Tonic
@cathyx: Do you understand data security at all?
cathyx
You all have such a huge stick up your butts about Greenwald, that you can’t even see the obvious because you have to make him out to be a bad guy.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@cathyx:
Good guys don’t stand up for their old libertarian friends who’ve become spin doctors for corporations which have been implicated in the massacres of striking oil workers.
? Martin
@Gin & Tonic: I think its more basic than that. Snowden is a data guy, and sees everything through data terms. To him, data is insecure because he knows all of the ways to beat it. But meatspace (to him) is relatively secure because he’s not a field guy. I suspect that got impressed upon GG and their electronic paranoia (and lack of knowledge) got the better of them.
MikeJ
@efgoldman:
Less than 10 minutes left in the Boise St – UW game. Huskies have had all sorts of chances in the second half but just can’t put it in the goal. Izzy about to take her third corner.
hamletta
Greenwald does a fine job of that all by his lonesome.
Dave
NBC is absolutely beating the drum for a full-scale war in Syria. They spent the first 10 minutes of the nightly news telling us that everyone in Syria is just begging for salvation, and that Obama is “taking a risk” by putting the decision before Congress.
Gin & Tonic
@cathyx: The only thing obvious here is that there are two possible scenarios for why Miranda was a mule. Either Greenwald wanted him to get stopped, or else Greenwald is a complete moron. There are no other working scenarios.
Gin & Tonic
@cathyx: The only thing obvious here is that there are two possible scenarios for why Miranda was a mule. Either Greenwald wanted him to get stopped, or else Greenwald is a complete moron. There are no other working scenarios.
Gin & Tonic
@cathyx: The only thing obvious here is that there are two possible scenarios for why Miranda was a mule. Either Greenwald wanted him to get stopped, or else Greenwald is a complete moron. There are no other working scenarios.
different-church-lady
@Gin & Tonic: That’s six possible scenarios.
Mino
The Ross Perot Foundation has just donated one million dollars to Planned Parenthood of Texas. It is sure going to be needed.
Gin & Tonic
FYWP!
Corner Stone
@Yatsuno:
HAHAHAHAHA!!
Good one, old bean. Now pull the other leg.
patroclus
@efgoldman: No need to duck – LBJ’s 48-vote margin due to shenanigans in Duval County is extremely well known. Bu the difference is that it was well known in 1948 and Coke Stevenson stole votes as well. It was litigated in 1948 before the Democratic Party and the courts and LBJ caught hell for it for the remainder of his political career in every single subsequent election. Thatcher’s agents just covered it up and kept silent for 60 years. That’s the difference.
Corner Stone
Channel 337 SCI where I live is doing a series of “How it’s made: Dream Cars”
Showing Ferrari and then Audi R8 and etc.
Absolutely fascinating, if I say so meself.
lojasmo
Got music for my stupid new (to me) car. AM/FM/MP3/Pandora/USB and Bluetooth.
Drove 2200 miles with zero tunes and a loudmouth friend. That was a real drag.
Corner Stone
Just like HRC has always been a “divisive figure” because we’ve all been told she is for 30 years, GG et al are “assholes because they tell us so.
Oh, sorry, because of course they are as “we” disagree with what they are saying for the last 5 years.
Corner Stone
@lojasmo:
Looking in the mirror the whole trip was probably a dangerous way to drive.
Ruckus
@johio:
Speaking of not being able to read…
I certainly didn’t mention Greenwald and this is to the best of my recollection the only time I have ever typed his name.
Take your trolling about your favorite bullshit mimes and stuff them up your ass.
Is it possible that you may be able to read and understand that?
Corner Stone
@Gin & Tonic: Do you?
Corner Stone
@Ruckus:
Those are the absolutely worst kind of mimes.
Fuck those “the box I’m trapped in is right round the corner” bullshit mimes.
Nothing good ever came from that shit.
Mike in NC
@Dave: Yeah, the bloodlust from Mrs. Greenspan & company was nauseating. Obama’s “credibility is on the line”, seriously? Might have to switch over to FOX News or NewsMax for some balanced “journalism”.
Jim, Foolish LIteralist
@Dave: I’m still trying to wrap my head around Andrea Mitchell’s assertion of Concern for “the Troops” because Obama stepped back from the brink. I guess I could have left the channel on to hear a more complete explanation, but she pissed me off so much I clicked her off.
Richard Engel, who I tend to respect, also seems to want the attack, but I give him some leeway for actually being on the ground.
Corner Stone
@El Cid: I missed the part about the hookers claiming an illegal tax status?
patroclus
@? Martin: Miranda’s plane trip was paid for by the Guardian and he was carrying information from one journalist (Poitras) to another (Greenwald). So, in effect, in this situation, he was performing journalism in that he was information gathering for a journalist. I would hope that the DOJ would use discretion in his case too if this had happened on U.S. soil. Journalists and those who work for them should not be harassed; no matter how odious and wrong they usually are. I’ve switched sides here – I can’t stand Dear Leader Greenwald, but I don’t think he or his boyfriend should be harassed while ostensibly performing a public service (journalism).
Not that it really matters. The stuff was confiscated and Miranda was released and no further proceedings are being pursued. It’s really a non-issue at this stage. Now, chemical weapons and bombs really matter – those are the real issues today.
Corner Stone
@? Martin:
I thought all your experts said he was an idiot who didn’t know shit from shinola?
patroclus
@Mike in NC: It’s not just Mrs. Greenspan – virtually the entire D.C. media has gone all in for drumming up a war with Syria, with Fox and CNN far more vociferous examples than MSNBC. I’m not convinced and the more they bellow, the less convinced I am. Why now? The Chemical Weapons Convention specifies no timeframe by which bombs must fall after the use of chemical weapons. The bombing can wait until the UN fully reports and we have a full debate.
cathyx
@patroclus: The news programs make a butt load of money when we are at war.
Villago Delenda Est
@Corner Stone:
Osama bin Laden used couriers because he didn’t want to be traced.
Greenwald doesn’t have that problem to deal with, so using a courier is not a matter of necessity.
It’s a matter of stage direction.
Ruckus
@patroclus:
If one doesn’t rush in and demand blood before all the facts are in how could they be good conservatives? They must demand action without thought for that is their ideology. Actually I should correct that a little, They demand whatever action is the most stupid and are required to put no thought into it or they lose their magic conservative decoder rings.
Ruckus
@Ruckus:
Or shorter.
What @cathyx: said.
patroclus
@cathyx: Yeah, I know. And they make far less money when it’s merely a Congressional debate, with lots of bloviating know-nothings pontificating and no real action, because far fewer people watch (or care). I haven’t seen it this blatant since 2003 and that’s not a good thing.
MikeJ
One thing everybody can agree on: the special relationship with the UK is yet another victim of eight years of Bush. The PM’s argument was they were “letting down America” and everybody else in parliament said “so fucking what?” And of course it didn’t help Cameron to bring in tony Blair to cheerlead for blowing ship up. Other than bringing in Bush himself, who could have been worse?
Corner Stone
@Villago Delenda Est: Are you fucking kidding? Just for CYA purposes I sometimes walk my happy ass to the HR Director’s office so we can speak in person.
Don’t be so easy to dismiss the action because you hate the guy and want to find a nice comfy tumbrel for him.
We’ve sent someone from Germany to Hong Kong to give direction on a business deal before. Hell, I’ve personally handed a laptop to someone to courier it from Houston to Dallas. Don’t fucking tell me about it.
cathyx
And NBC stands to make the most, being owned by GE.
MikeJ
@cathyx: No, they’re owned by Comcast.
Gin & Tonic
@Corner Stone: Yes.
patroclus
@MikeJ: Sorry, but I don’t agree. The U.S. and the U.K. still have a strong relationship despite Bush. Labour (and most LibDems) argued that they should await the UN report and pointed out correctly that Obama had yet to make any decision regarding bombing – because this was accurate, it carried the vote. Why now? Why not wait? The Chemical Weapons Convention specifies no timeframe nor does it specify bombing as the only preferred response. If Cameron’s principal argument was “we’re letting down the U.S.” it was an argument based on a flawed premise.
Betty Cracker
@Dave: I’ve missed a lot of the coverage and was watching CNN to catch up. Godawful coverage. And the clips of McCain — gyad, what a disgrace.
Gin & Tonic
@Corner Stone: Interesting but irrelevant. You were dealing with a different problem domain.
Join me in this thought experiment. Imagine you’re teaching Intro to Cryptography and Computer Security. You assign a problem involving getting a set of documents from a well-known source in one country to a well-known destination in another, assuming that every relevant intelligence agency is interested and engaged. One of the students says “I know, I’ll have the well-known destination’s well-known boyfriend carry the documents on his person on a commercial airline flight that transits through a country which is interested in the documents and is a close ally of a country which is even more interested in the documents.” What grade do you give the student?
MikeJ
@Gin & Tonic:
Don’t forget to tweet that he’ll be carrying stuff.
Corner Stone
@Gin & Tonic: Your thought experiment is irrelevant to the issue of verbal communication.
Cacti
@Remfin:
Of course not. You’ll notice that Cole has been quiet as a church mouse since it’s come to light that Snowden accessed information through fraud and identity theft.
Mistermix tried to go all hipster and pretend he was too cool to care.
cathyx
@Cacti: I can’t wait until we have a republican president again so that you’ll be back on board with being ok with Greenwald and his dislike of government intrusion.
Gin & Tonic
@Corner Stone: You probably mean “oral” and not “verbal.”
But really, do try to keep up. The question before the panel is why Miranda was carrying the hard drive. Was there no alternative? Clearly there were several.
Gin & Tonic
@cathyx: Any straw left over after that project?
cathyx
@Gin & Tonic: Both of you. I wish I could go back and read what you were saying when Bush was president.
A Humble Lurker
@cathyx:
May I introduce you to Google?
cathyx
@A Humble Lurker: Yeah. I’m going to google gin and tonic and get everything he’s commented on since 2000 about Bush.
tybee
@Corner Stone:
so you were in the back seat. i didn’t realize you were a friend of his.
Gin & Tonic
@cathyx: I see there was straw left over.
What does any of this have to do with who is President? All I’m pointing out is that Greenwald *in this instance* is either lying or set his boyfriend up as bait, neither particularly admirable. And Snowden, as Ricky would have said, has a lot of ‘splaining to do, like why the first place he went is the Russian consulate in HK.
Cacti
@cathyx:
Strange that you would want a Republican president to prove some point about Glenn Greenwald.
Cultist much?
Gin & Tonic
@cathyx: How about I share with you my 10+ years’ correspondence with my Senators and Representative about the Patriot Act, or my couple of years’ correspondence with them about FISA reauthorization? How many letters did you write? How often did you speak to your reps? After all, it’s Congress that authorizes the work of the intelligence agencies and approves their budgets.
Lorna
@srv: Hated her because she was a racist who supported apartheid South Africa. Very happy to see that Nelson Mandela has outlived her.
Citizen Alan
It is possible to believe that:
a. Glenn Greenwald is a self-aggrandizing asshole,
b. Barack Obama is the best possible president we could have gotten in the current political climate and has largely done a good job, AND
c. Greenwald and his supporters are right about the illegality and
fundamentally antidemocratic nature of NSA spying and that the Obama administration is fundamentally wrong in a way that should concern even his supporters.
None of those facts are mutually exclusive.
Ruckus
@Citizen Alan:
Can’t let no facts get in the way.
I’m sure you know that opinions are like assholes, everyone has at least one and isn’t against using it several times a day.
Being realistic, how dare you!
different-church-lady
@cathyx:
May I suggest that any and all information you gain from that endeavor cannot be a bad thing.
different-church-lady
@Citizen Alan:
Must so many things need repair around here?
Steve Crickmore
@Citizen Alan: Obama is at least as self-serving and self-aggrandizing as Greenwald, more so, I would think, and Greenwald has been much more consistent with his principles and hasn’t made nearly the number of U turns with tendentious logic and stealth that Obama has displayed on civil liberties and democratic rights, since 2004, the two issues they mutually share. Obama has shown so little respect for other countries, friend or foe, and as a power on to itself, represents an excecutive branch, that is interested in spying on as many as possible, embassies, the UN, the EU, our Latin American friends, it doesn’t matter, mostly for commercial or political interests, certainly not because of anti-terrorism. And what are most of you indignant about? Possible ‘purloined documents’ from a growing anti-republican leviathan, that likely should never have been so classified on illegal actions that should never have been exercised.
Bitter Scribe
Thatcher benefitted economically from North Sea oil and politically from the Falklands, which buoyed her up and made her endurable, even with her unrelenting contempt for a majority of her own countrymen. It’s telling that she was not voted out but ousted by her own political colleagues and allies, who simply couldn’t stand working with her anymore.
Maude
@Betty Cracker:
Saw a background wallpaper background with small red flowers
Now, was this standard McCain wallpaper of the Vulcan nature, or merely, Okay, Bob, set up the ugly stuff over here. He won’t even notice.
I give McCain credit, he’s still; pointing the dame direction a month ago.