It’s easy to make fun of Glenn HARLAN Reynolds (via) for saying stupid shit like this:
Speaking of urban agony, by the way — if folks on the right were truly Macchiavellian, they’d be joining the critics of stop-and-frisk. The big Blue enclaves are where the crime and racial strife mostly are; letting those get worse would probably benefit folks on the right. Luckily for the hipsters, righties are too principled for that sort of “heightening the contradictions” thing.
Never mind that New York City has below-average rates of crime and a mass transit system where no one blinks at being the only white or black person in their subway car, what’s ridiculous here is that Glenn calls himself a libertarian. Let’s grant that most libertarians are just Republicans who smoke pot, but even so, stop-and-frisk is aimed at denying Muricans the Only Right That Matters. Maybe it’s that Glenn doesn’t think the blahs should have this right too, but I don’t think that’s it, I think he likes stop-and-frisk simply because liberals complain about it. This is textbook Cleekian conservatism:
today’s conservatism is the opposite of what liberals want today: updated daily.
So why don’t conservatarians come out and call themselves conservatives? One explanation is the Slatification of our discourse: no one wants to be pigeonholed, better to come up with ironic, contrarian, counterintutive reasons why you’ve arrived at the exact standard conservative position on every issue than to admit you’re a Dittohead.
Another more hopeful explanation is this: “conservative” has become a dirty word, if only among people who purport to be intellectuals, just as “liberal” became a dirty in certain cirlces. Hear me now, believe me later, but no one admits to being a “neocon” after the Bush debacle, and in another ten years, the same being true of “conservative”.
Ted & Hellen
So with Obama’s war dick spinning wildly above our heads, Senator Warren calling out the bankers and Wall Street and their enablers in government, and new NSA revelations appearing daily, what you’ve decided to post about today is the issue of how you don’t like the other tribe’s labels.
Shakezula
I wasn’t aware liberal had become a dirty word. With the Conservatives, part of it is an inability to admit facts, like the fact that they’ve been siding with the losing team. Hence all of those people who suddenly knew Bush was a stealth liberal all along. If they keep changing their name, they never have to admit they’ve been getting their asses handed to them on a regular basis. “Republican? Eeeew. I’m a conservative! Conservative? Pish! Those losers. I’m a Libertarian!”
And some of the more cunning ones think they can fool voters into accepting the big reeking pile of shit if it is wrapped in a different color paper. (See Intelligent Design.)
pamelabrown53
I’d like for Americans to unite under:”We are All Pragmatists Now” and start functioning to solve problems instead of sinking to a Third World Status.
gbear
But Teabaggers will be loud and proud until they die. Just read the comments on any new story.
Rob in Buffalo
There are a million pieces of evidence that Reynolds is simply a conservative-who-won’t-admit-it but “righties are too principled”? Who, other than a conservative True Believer, would refer to conservatives as “principled”, let alone “too principled”?
Tom Levenson
Scott Lemieux over at Lawyers Guns and Money put some numbers to Reynolds’ ignorant bottom feeding:
adding:
Ash Can
Well, I do. Reynolds has said plenty of racist shit in the past, and this is no exception. Never mind the crypto-conservative/pseudo-libertarian/neo-conservative/conservo-contrarian bullshit. He’s just a bigoted asshole.
srv
Righties are too principled to stand up for the 4th Ammendment, and it would be Macchiavellian to do so?
Honorable, courageous and all that from our libertarian betters.
In the mean time, CHINESE ANCHOR BABIES!
KG
Also… The big Blue enclaves are were the people mostly are.
But, really, what is this racial strife he’s talking about? And hell, what qualifies as “racial strife”?
MattF
@Tom Levenson: And no, Reynolds hasn’t gotten stupider over the years. What’s happened is a slow political striptease, we now get to see what was concealed. Oopsie.
shelly
Ugh, any article that has to throw in a sneering ‘hipsters’ reference….
pamelabrown53
@srv: Re: “Chinese Anchor Babies”. Now that’s an interesting story; waiting for Louie Gohmert’s “opinion”.
liberal
What’s ridiculous is anyone who is opposed to land value taxation calling themselves a libertarian.
Shakezula
p.s. Telling us that you’re only violating our rights because you care deeply about dumb murderous brown brutes is a winning strategy that is sure to bring those African- and Hispanic Americans who are allowed to vote to your side.
More of this please.
I really don’t think they can help it.
Cacti
So, now that it’s looking like a diplomatic solution in Syria has been found, what will the hair-on-fire brigade say?
That Obama and Kerry played this right, and it ended up being a marked success?
Or that the ignorant naif in the White House had to be saved by Putin?
Place your bets now.
MattF
@Cacti: I expect a return to BENGHAZIBENGHAZIBENGHAZI.
jonas
no one admits to being a “neocon” after the Bush debacle
I beg to differ — Bill Kristol, John Bolton, et al. — not to mention McCain and Senator Butters — seem to have no problem booking themselves onto Sunday morning talk shows where their record of being completely wrong about everything all the time (their so-called “[Dick] Morris Number”) approaches 1 (=100%).
Gin & Tonic
@Cacti: I vote “b”
KG
@Cacti: ignorant, weak, and incompetent naif was saved by a real leader… I’d bet on that, but I don’t like getting less than even money on bets, and that’s gotta be at like -2500
Cacti
@MattF:
Or alternatively NSANSANSANSANSASNOWDENSNOWDENSNOWDEN.
Belafon
@Cacti: About half the people in the DK article say this is just caused by Russia, and it had nothing to do with Obama and Kerry. “See, all it takes is diplomatic pressure.”
I’m pretty sure Obama’s thinking what I am: It doesn’t matter if people think he’s the bad cop, as long as the result is what we want.
chopper
@Cacti:
the latter of course, but not before a few rounds of talk about ‘swinging dicks’ and ‘the military-industrial complex’ and ‘must feed the war pig’ talk.
scav
“the lowest and vilest alleys in London do not present a more dreadful record of sin than does the smiling and beautiful countryside.”
No shit Sherlock.
cleek
@Cacti:
i love your implication that the warmongers knew it was all about pressuring Russia into something like this all along.
y’all need to work on your bullshit peddling. your product is rank and the sales job is just pathetic.
chopper
@Belafon:
i expect a ‘progressive’ petition by the end of the day demanding that the nobel committee take obama’s peace prize and give it to putin, the true peacemaker.
joes527
@Cacti:
Woo fucking hoo. High fives all around.
You want to take credit personally? Fine: The world is a better place because Cacti posts on Balloon Juice. (you read it here first)
As long as we don’t end up raining death out of the sky (for the sake of the children!), I’m good with anyone taking credit for it.
Good job Cacti!
Cacti
@Belafon:
One of the last holdouts on the 1993 Convention on Chemical Weapons turns over its arsenal. Russia doesn’t lose any face internationally, and the US doesn’t have to get involved militarily. And it’s all done in a way that no one really knows what went on behind the scenes.
I’d call that a diplomatic masterstroke. The fringe can keep tilting at windmills.
Citizen_X
@Ash Can: Needs fixing.
Better.
Cacti
@joes527:
Just the bitterness I expected.
Thanks for proving my point so succinctly.
chopper
@joes527:
but…but…what about the military-industrial complex(tm)? i thought this was all about the military-industrial complex!
kc
@liberal:
Also that someone who’s been on a government payroll his entire professional life calls himself a libertarian.
cleek
also, a proposal that hasn’t been accepted isn’t actually a solution. it’s a proposal.
chopper
@Cacti:
assuming it happens, of course. i dunno, it’s just a few diplomatic statements at this point.
likewise, the civil war is still going on. i’m sure assad is trying to squeeze something out of at least russia for this deal.
MattF
And Marc ‘War Criminal’ Thiessen thinks the problem is that we’re not planning to bombing enough Syrians:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-dont-just-bomb-assad-bomb-al-qaeda-too/2013/09/09/5de2436a-195f-11e3-8685-5021e0c41964_story.html?hpid=z5
joes527
@Cacti:
Are you familiar with the concept of a high five? Holding out for a wet sloppy kiss? Well OK ….
schrodinger's cat
@srv: The GOP has a plan in the works to solve this problem, make life a living hell for everyone except the 1% so even the native born will have to emigrate.
Ben Cisco
@Cacti: C’mon, there can be only one answer to that – they’re going to pound the “b” button until it breaks. And then pat themselves on the back for their ingenuity.
Ash Can
@Cacti: The right will all be convinced that this was Putin’s doing, because he’s the manly man whose shirtless physique gives them the tinglies in their britches. And the emo left will all be convinced that this was Cameron’s doing, or Merkel’s, or Glenn Greenwald’s — anyone but Obama and Kerry. And none of us may ever know the whole truth. But then…
@Belafon:
Exactly, because he is, after all, the adult in the room (and sometimes the only one).
Belafon
@cleek: I don’t know if that’s what Cacti was implying, but considering that Russia was supply Assad with aircraft and weapons, I really doubt they would have pressured Syria without the threat of the US hanging over everything.
How much of this was part of Obama’s plan? I would seriously hope that he’s been pressuring other countries to talk to Syria while he ratchets up the pressure.
Mnemosyne
@cleek:
Depends on your definition of “warmongers.” I’m pretty sure that Obama and Kerry knew it was all about pressuring Russia and there was a whole lot of diplomatic pressure going on behind the scenes to get to this result while dicks were being swung publicly.
On the other hand, people like McCain and Kristol probably have rapidly deflating woodies this morning. They’re also hearing two words in their heads: “Meep-meep.”
ETA: This was one of my two hoped-for results, with the other being the UN taking charge of the chemical weapons.
joes527
@chopper: keep your posters straight. I know that viewing the world through we/they glasses is so … simple, but they seem to be filtering too much.
Another Holocene Human
@Ted & Hellen: Wow, somebody just won’t let Obama’s dick go, after what? 6 years?
Anoniminous
@Cacti:
Both Boehner and Cantor came out in favor of bombing Syria. The political reality is they “own” the policy just as much as the Obama administration. I advise everybody not to hold their breath until the MSM points that out. (Prolonged oxygen deprivation can lead to significant brain damage.)
kc
@Ted & Hellen:
Oh, shut up.
kc
@Cacti:
Get a job.
Another Holocene Human
@scav: Indeed, but try to get anyone to believe it!
I guess when somebody known to you kills you you needed killin’ but if it’s a total stranger, the guilt be upon them, and their family, and their clan, and their tribe, and their religion, and their neighborhood, and those places they hang out at ….
kc
Sorry, I fed the trolls. I should know better.
Anyway, speaking of libertarians, I didn’t know that Ron Paul was getting into the homeschooling biz. Link to the Ron Paul Curriculum: http://www.ronpaulcurriculum.com/public/main.cfm
chopper
@joes527:
are you unfamiliar with the concept of a high-five? aw, nevermind.
? Martin
Friend of mine received a nice racist email pointing out the President’s blackness from a corporate VP this morning. Company-wide email. I think they have around 10,000 employees, so not a small company. There were immediate apologies from other executives (within minutes). He’s expecting a termination announcement once the lawyers have been consulted.
They really can’t help it.
scav
Quotey day apparently.
Who saved the Empire?
“Dunno. Nobody knows. Nobody ever does know, for certain. The old bus wobbles one way, and you think, ‘That’s done it!’ and then it wobbles the other way and you think, ‘All serene’; and then, one day, it wobbles over too far and you’re in the soup and can’t remember how you got there.”
Still, if this increases the magnetic pull the GeezerQ centerfolds and his nation have on the tax-adverse, Govt. out of my Medicare Freeeduuum! (but entirely not homo) lovers, I will chortle as the members of Greatest Generation move in next to French Movie Stars clutching their Formerly Soviet Passports.
joes527
@Anoniminous: Dude. Boehner and Cantor were all about pressuring Putin and Assad to move on the issues.
I’m pretty sure Boehner and Cantor are thinking what I am: It doesn’t matter if people think they’re the bad cops, as long as the result is what we want.
And what about that Walnuts? Dude took chess to a whole new dimension!
Or something like that.
cleek
@Belafon:
according to Cacti, all of it:
to which i say: yeah, maybe it was; but the only people i hear pushing for a diplomatic solution were also pushing away from a military ‘solution’ with all their might. and none of the people i read who who were pushing for a military ‘solution’ gave any hint that the push was in order to get Russia to propose a diplomatic solution.
the idea that this is what the We Must Punish Him Or The Blood Is On Your Hands chorus wanted all along is transparent post facto rationalization bullshit.
ranchandsyrup
The word libertarian was created for haiku-usage purposes when conservative has too few syllables.
Another Holocene Human
@Ash Can: I wonder if Obama will give interviews when he retires, or if he will just give a big fat meaty middle finger to any reporter who approaches him for about two years…
Who am I kidding, he’s going to be campaigning for other Democratic politicans (as well he should) and he’ll have his Secret Service detail to tell reporters to fuck off for him.
Obama telling everybody what he REALLY thinks would be worth its weight in gold… He totally won’t, though. He saw what happened to Rosie.
cleek
@Mnemosyne:
i hope so. and i hope it works out. if it does, i wonder how fast the press will snap out of their “Obama: Foreign Policy Ultimate Fail!” mood? 6 hours? 24? never?
i’ve seen zero evidence that anybody here knew that that was the plan, however.
Cacti
@chopper:
Of course.
But one can safely say that this has been the most positive development throughout the entire episode. Hopefully it becomes a tangible solution, as it doesn’t involve further death or destruction.
pacem appellant
What is there no tag for “Cleekian Conservativism”? This sort of oversight makes me think that this blog cares more about dogs than it does about snark. I will accept “Rubber and Glue” as a euphemism Cleek’s Law.
Another Holocene Human
@? Martin: It’s nice when those capitalist pig fuckers jump from the 50th floor instead of having to be pushed.
I guess I could get in trouble for saying that but this guy was a corporate VP, ie get really rich with no responsibility except terrorizing middle managers who supervise the people who do the real work. And he threw it away because he’s a pinhead. No. Sympathy.
Cacti
@cleek:
Outrage junkie disappointed that his fix might be taken away.
cleek
@Cacti:
sorry, troll. you’ve already got all you’re gonna get from me today.
Amir Khalid
@MattF:
I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised that Thiessen’s proposal to bomb al-Qa’idah is as stupid as it is bloodthirsty. How does he expect the US to bomb neighbourhoods with al-Qa’idah groups without also bombing their non-al-Qa’idah neighbours?
Mnemosyne
@cleek:
Again, if you’re talking about Obama and Kerry, they can’t publicly say, We won’t use force because we want a diplomatic solution because the other side will, rightly, give them the finger and continue to do what they want. Threatening force while negotiating for a diplomatic solution behind the scenes is a time-honored way to get the other side to agree to take the negotiations seriously. I think we all forgot that during the Bush years because they didn’t play that game and really did go straight to force despite ongoing negotiations.
So, basically, it’s yet another adjustment to having an adult in charge who understands how diplomacy works rather than having the Fuck Saddam, we’re taking him out guys still running things.
ETA: I didn’t know that was the plan, but I suspected it might be, especially once Obama canceled his face-to-face with Putin at G20. To me that was a sign that there were ongoing negotiations and pressure that weren’t visible to the public.
joes527
@Cacti: Today is the most promising day in a while. Lots of ways for this to go off the rails, but the chance that things might get better is closer today than it has been in a while.
Is pissing in the punchbowl really your top priority?
Cacti
@cleek:
Yes, how very odd that no one at Balloon-Juice was getting updates on the private diplomatic efforts of the White House or the State Department.
I know having to give the POTUS any credit for this will be a bitter pill for you to swallow. Just remember your Kubler-Ross stages.
Jewish Steel
@? Martin: Hope it was worth it!
pamelabrown53
@cleek: I disagree. PBO is not a warmonger and it’s more difficult to believe he wasn’t setting up a carrot/stick approach.
I guess we’ll not know in the near future just like we can’t broadcast troop movements, unless you’re Geraldo Rivera.
raven
@Cacti: People were pretty happy he took it to Congress, for about 15 fucking seconds.
Cacti
@joes527:
As nothing anyone says on this blog will have any effect on how this all plays out, what difference does it make?
Another Holocene Human
@cleek: This blog hasn’t exactly been a font of informed commentary on the issue, though, has it? Instead, a bunch of people with their hair on fire relitigated the last conflict, ie the mid-2000s warblog blog wars.
A trite, cursory examination of the situation would have revealed Russia’s importance to this situation. I’m sure Obama admin has been on this the whole time, esp since Obama Admin was not distracted by the shiny thing of psycho-analyzing Obama admin from afar.
Sending the issue to US Congress looks even more brilliant in retrospect (it was very smart for domestic politics and I DID see someone in the liberal blogosphere suggest it about a day before it was announced, so kudos to that astute soul), as once you toss something to that band of crabby goobers the rhetoric starts flying all over the place. That’s got to have the right people shitting their pants when US MCs sound like they’re forming a consensus that they’re against the bombing because it doesn’t go far enough. Ffffuuuuuuuuuck.
I’m not siding with cacti, now–I think a bombing would be pointless and don’t think threatening to do so is all that helpful, even if it did have Assad’s forces running to the bunkers for a day or two. But, shit, they don’t pay me to make those kinds of decisions and I’m happy to be well clear of it.
Punchy
OT, but wow. Just holy fucking wow.
cleek
@Mnemosyne:
of course.
but i was really talking about everyone else: the cheerleaders, not the people doing the actual work. shoud’ve made that more clear.
(and don’t forget: this may all be premature, at this point. a proposal is not a solution)
joes527
@Cacti: Because you are totally harshing my mellow.
Yatsuno
@kc: Grifters gotta grift. Ol’ Uncle Ron ain’t gonna have a gubmint salary after this term, and he just CAN’T survive on a Congressional pension now can he?
Mnemosyne
@cleek:
Never. SATSQ.
And, as I said, I didn’t know that getting Russia to back down from their unconditional support of Syria was the plan, but it did seem like that was the general idea since there was a whole lot of saber-rattling and speechifying without much movement of the military force that would be required to attack within the proposed timeframe.
And it probably was not all a bluff — the US probably was prepared to attack unilaterally if Obama decided to go that route. But I think he was trying to exhaust all of the other options before he decided that was necessary.
chopper
@? Martin:
Either that or he really pissed someone off and led his door open and computer unlocked.
Suffern ACE
@Another Holocene Human: Rosie O’donnell? Rosey Grier?
cleek
@pamelabrown53:
right. i apparently was very unclear.
the “warmongers” i was talking about are those who spent a week telling the rest of us how we wanted the Syrian children to die because we didn’t like the idea of being the world’s police and bombing Syria over their CW use.
nobody here knows if this is what Obama was pushing for all along or not. and for obvious reasons, if it was, he couldn’t tell us.
i’ll take it, regardless, if it fixes the problem.
chopper
@Mnemosyne:
Or to be more succinct, it ain’t ‘gunboat diplomacy’ if you’re not driving a gunboat around.
RP
@cleek: If you’re talking about this blog, that is complete and utter bullshit. With a handful of exceptions, the commenters here have basically been divided into “taking military action is a terrible idea” and “taking military action might not be a bad idea and we should consider it.”
cleek
@Mnemosyne:
if missiles or air strikes were the plan, we have far more than enough ships in the area already.
sparrow
@Shakezula: It absolutely was a dirty word in my house growing up (lower middle-class burbs of a 300k city in middle America. Hell on earth). I had an instinctual revulsion at it, even after I had moved pretty far to the left (post pseudo libertarian/centrist phase), and it wasn’t until my mid-20s that I had shed that early disgust associated with the term liberal. Really. Weird considering I’m such a socialist pinko commie now.
srv
@joes527: Cantor and crowd would prefer destroying the Assad regime, but he’s having a hard time selling that to his local yokels.
srv
@Punchy: Why do you hate blind people?
joes527
I have no idea whether this was eleventy dimensional chess. (and neither do you) but the thing that makes me think that it wasn’t was that Kerry up till yesterday was saying that diplomacy wouldn’t work unless we knocked them around a bit first.
This isn’t just carrot/stick diplomacy. Our public stance was that there was not carrot ’till we had at least one round with a stick.
It could have been a front and the magic was happening in closed rooms, but it doesn’t sound like it. We could have been publicly threatening and demanding w/o the “we need to bomb before we talk” talk.
Mnemosyne
@cleek:
Honestly, though, how many of those people were there? One or two? IIRC, even Cacti wanted UN action, not unilateral action by the US.
What was becoming frustrating for me was the number of avowed liberals who were declaring that chemical weapons use was no big deal and we should stay out of the whole thing because food stamps. As I said many times, it is possible to simultaneously believe that whoever used chemical weapons on civilians needs to be punished AND that it would be counterproductive and harmful for the US to dole that punishment out unilaterally. But there seemed to be a pretty large contingent who didn’t even want diplomatic pressure applied because, meh, chemical weapons, who cares, dead is dead.
beltane
@cleek: Accusations that war-skeptics were “high-fiving” each other over the gassing deaths of Syrian children were particularly galling.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Mnemosyne:
It also explains why Obama asked for the long, loud debate in Congress that would dominate the world news, why he said he really didn’t need the vote and why Kerry was going to distance on pushing the strikes.
Amir Khalid
@Punchy:
Yesterday, someone on these threads linked to the Des Moines Register story, which quoted Stevie Wonder: “Imagine me with a gun. It’s just crazy.”
raven
@Another Holocene Human: “crabby goobers” Hell yes!
The Other Chuck
I don’t normally step into the whole Devil’s Advocate thing, but what if the low crime rate in NYC is due to it being turned into a police state? I mean, that’s the thrust of Reynolds’ snide college-republican argument, no? The point not being whether it’s worth it, but whether it’s cause and effect. I tend to think stop-and-frisk is doing jack-all and in fact is unraveling the concept of “community policing”, but at the end of the day, I’d rather have data on my side.
Mnemosyne
@joes527:
Yes, weird how our public stance was one thing but once Russia agreed to some of our terms, it became something else. Almost as though there was talking going on out of the public eye.
I mean, come on, have you never, ever declared that you have an immovable stance that you promptly move as soon as the other person budges?
Chris
@scav:
I love that speech. Conan Doyle had the Wholesome Small Town Folksy People BS myth pegged all these decades ago.
schrodinger's cat
I think cities in general are safer because there are more people out and about. I for one would be more of afraid of being stranded in the middle of nowhere like Betty Cracker was a week or so ago.
Roger Moore
@srv:
Chinese maternity hotels are actually common enough here in the San Gabriel Valley that they’re starting to become a serious issue. I guess the ones here are probably serving a higher-class clientele than the ones in the Northern Marianas.
cleek
@Mnemosyne:
was there more than one? i only saw the one, and she got smacked around pretty good, even by those who thought attacking Syria was a colossally stupid idea.
if all the sabre-rattling really was a bluff, it was a bluff that would make the “red line” comment look tame. there would be no graceful walk back from that, even if Congress said no. the rhetoric was way too hot for a bluff. which makes me think it probably wasn’t a bluff.
but again, i’ll take it anyway. if you win a hand on a bluff, it’s still a win.
chopper
@Mnemosyne:
yeah. i think the progressive crowd really stepped on it’s own dick when it came to this issue. the PTSD from the bush years’ foreign policy debacles re: the mideast combined with a steaming resentment of obama caused them to basically shrug their shoulders over this whole thing and rationalize it all away. hey, reagan didn’t care when saddam gassed his people!
joes527
@Mnemosyne: Sure, but I would expect the demand to be … something. Step down, Destroy all chemical and conventional weapons, Kiss the rebel commanders (on the lips), Drop and give me 20, … something.
Not: We’ll be bombing you and then we can talk.
Not saying that this couldn’t have been the plan from the start, just that it seems (from the outside) to have been something else.
pluege
“no one admits to being a “neocon” after the Bush debacle, and in another ten years, the same being true of “conservative””.
Not true about neocons. As we see on the Syria issue, the neocon goons are still there, and still getting prime corporate media attention.
What is true is that sooner than 10 years, no one will admit to being a republican. Its already started, not only with the tea party running away from bush, but also the elderly are starting to figure out that republicans have been screwing everyone (since reagan) from kingdom come, including them, their children and grand children, and the nation in general in every way imaginable. If you are not ubber rich, you are gonna get screwed by republicans.
hoodie
@Mnemosyne: Of course it was in the plan, in the sense there are always military and diplomatic contingencies in this kind of thing. There might be a question as to whether Obama thought that was a realistic possibility. You’d have to be a mind reader to know that, but I would be surprised if this wasn’t a topic of discussion last week at the G20 and afterward. We don’t know if the Syrians will actually deliver, but I imagine the Russians wouldn’t have publicly offered it if there wasn’t a good chance it would happen.
muddy
@pluege: They may be getting the attention, but the point is that no one is using the word neocon anymore.
chopper
@joes527:
i guess it depends on whether you’re the sort that thinks that obama got where he is mainly out of luck, or mainly out of being really good at politics.
personally, i give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of diplomacy because he’s pretty good at it. this whole thing could just be straight-up luck (if it happens), but i doubt that.
Villago Delenda Est
@KG:
Well, getting elected President, for one thing.
Yatsuno
@pluege: But THEY KEEP VOTING FOR THEM. Becuz Jeebus and teh bebehs and kweerz are icky and give us a funny feeling in our gullet. When that matters more than their living situation, that’s a tough cycle to break.
Another Holocene Human
@Suffern ACE: O’Donnell and the Great Fan Alienation Flame-out
Of course, she is kind of an arrested development case, but, comics: a special breed
Chris
@? Martin:
No, actually, they can’t; they literally don’t have the bearings anymore to tell them what is and isn’t going to offend people.
Partly that’s because the country’s been getting so much less white and more socially liberal, so bigoted comments that in the past would’ve been allowed to slide are now less and less likely to do so. But the other part is that movement conservatism has been so successful at wrapping them up in a hermetically sealed bubble where they get to have nothing but the news they want to hear and interact with nothing but like-minded people, that it’s getting harder and harder for them to function outside of the bubble.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@cleek:
Probably more like they preferred the diplomatic solution but were going to do the military solution if they had to and wanted to make sure everyone knew about it.
danielx
@MattF:
In other news, grass is green, water is wet, etc etc.
What else would Br’er Thiessen say? When you’ve spent a good portion of your adult life flacking for George W. Bush…
Another Holocene Human
@The Other Chuck: More likely that NYC’s crime rate plunged with other cities as other cities plunged for the same reason theirs plunged (Drum says it’s Pb and I find that convincing) and it has little to do with policing methods.
But ALSO, TOO NYC’s Compstat crap has cops underreporting violent crime all over the city so just be aware the rates are probably about 10% higher than reported. Yes, even homicide because they REFUSE to prosecute vehicular homicide in order to keep their total murder stats down. SICK.
drkrick
@pamelabrown53: Re Chinese anchor babies: With calves the size of a Peking duck.
Another Holocene Human
@Chris: But they also feel threatened and that has them talking out of their hindquarters impulsively when in the past they restricted that kind of talk to quiet rooms.
cleek
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
yep.
Omnes Omnibus
@cleek: There is a difference between a threat and a bluff.
srv
@chopper: As someone who had Iranian classmates who returned home to fight and die in that war, I’m all for doing something useful.
Useful as in dropping CW on an Alawite village.
You people don’t seem to understand the inertia behind Regime Change:
This administration is all-in for Regime Change. That is dialed-in. We are going to war, damn the intel and damn Assad’s games.
ed- it may take longer now, but we are going to get that regime.
Jay C
@cleek:
Sorry, man, I’d have to take the over on “Never” – Frank Bruni put it best in his column in Sunday’s New York Times: one of the worst failings of our national media is its insistence on framing virtually EVERY issue, foreign or domestic, though a “political horse-race” lens: focusing on personality(ies) and simpleminded “status” perceptions. And, of course, Republican-normative to the max.
Myself, I see the Russian plan as a brilliant chance for a “peaceful” “solution” to the Syrian chem-weapons issue (if not the Syrian Question itself) – so what if it makes Putin look like a good guy, for once? “Diplomacy” (well, diplomacy backed up by threats of force and a vast arsenal, but why quibble?) can be made to look effective, the Administration won’t have to choose between the various evil outcomes of a unilateral attack, and, if Obama and Kerry can get their act together, the “solution” can be sold to the (American) public in a way that will make everyone happy. Well, everyone but John McCain and the rest of the war-woody crowd: and the ODS-afflicted on both sides of the aisle, but hey! Can’t please everybody.….!
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@drkrick
Speaking of that – now that England and France have officially swapped the surrender monkey stick how long before we hear about “The White Tidal wave” of English coming to take our jobs?
RP
I don’t think it was a bluff — I think Obama is/was fully prepared to go ahead with the airstrikes. But I’m sure he’s hoping for a diplomatic solution, and that solution probably needs the threat of force to get any traction.
IOW, it’s better to bet big with a flush than a pair of threes. In both cases you hope the other guy folds so you’re guaranteed victory, but with the flush you’re not bluffing because you still have a very good chance of winning even if the other guy stays in, and there’s no risk that he’s going to see your bluff.
Edit: Or, what #112 said more elegantly.
Mnemosyne
@joes527:
Except that we weren’t bluffing for Syria’s benefit — we were bluffing to get Russia to step in and get Assad under control. Crappy as it sounds, we were basically threatening Putin’s buddy and asking Putin what he was planning to do to prevent his buddy from getting his ass kicked. Since we were actually negotiating with Russia, not Syria, we didn’t offer Syria any terms.
I admit, it’s quite the Chicago way to do things — negotiate with us or we shoot your friend in the head — but if it works, it works.
Mnemosyne
@srv:
Well, we’ll see. If I’m right and this whole charade was to get Putin to back down, not Assad, there may not be quite as many missiles in the air as you’re hoping. What will you do if the US doesn’t attack?
chopper
@srv:
obama is known for his desire to go to war. i mean, look at all the times he’s put boots on the ground in other countries.
schrodinger's cat
@Jay C: Its not just Syria, media is a slave to the narrative. The other story I have been following is India’s economic crisis, suddenly the golden child can’t do anything right, its all doom all the time. Just a couple of years ago the narrative was the exact opposite, high growth, India shining blah blah ..
Omnes Omnibus
@srv:
Sorry, I don’t buy it.
danielx
@Chris:
This. They really want to return to the 1950s, that Golden Era when everything was better. You know, when white men ran everything and could get good paying jobs for the asking. Not to mention that women, children, n*****s and spics knew their place and by god kept to it, Or Else. And, and, leave us not forget, when one could use the word n****r in polite conversation and not have people get offended about it…
Then of course there are the ones who think returning to the 1850s would be just peachy keen.
SiubhanDuinne
@scav: I do like people who can quote Lord Peter Wimsey (that particular quote seems to be very close to the surface of my awareness these days). Thanks.
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne: Easy find another stick to beat Obama with, I am sure the Republicans, MSM or FauxNews will come up with something soon. Or Obama might appoint the fat bastard who manged to get himself fired as the Harvard President to chair the Fed.
pamelabrown53
@cleek: I not only understand being fed up to the point of vomiting when it comes to the issue of us being the world’s police force, I basically agree. Plus we’ve made so many huge miscalculations it’s easy to believe there can be no rest button.. Yet, in this case, maybe the appellate of ruthless world’s police just might be the ticket to avoiding the punitive strikes.
As per Steve Benen, Sec. Kerry was asked in London how Syria could avoid a US strike. He answered that putting their chemical weapons arsenal under UN control “within a week” might do it it.
Shortly afterwards the Russian Foreign Minister posited this solution and the Syrian Foreign Minister didn’t discount it. I think these are positive signs.
I also think the congress should approve Obama’s request because he’s smart enough to use this as the stick to Russia’s carrot.
drkrick
@Chris:
Sounds like an addressing screw-up to me. I bet there’s a more “select” list that’s gotten lots of this stuff with no objection and he fat-fingered something in the “TO:” field this time.
Botsplainer
Interesting lesson in how top notch diplomacy is performed. You wind up getting what you want by resorting to the lever of rhetoric and announcing the potential for the use of forceful means. I’m down with it, however it got mixed up in the sausage grinder.
I’m guessing that the Bolton model of “wield a big stick and swing with a bigger stick” is now fini. I’m just remembering back to him yelling at diplomats at the UN for being late, and thinking on the damage that caused.
Anyway, now that this looks like there will be a positive conclusion, I look for predictable voices to cry out in anguish over 1) using the possibility of force to get Assad’s security structure to give up their chemical weapons (the firebagging left) and 2) being so weak by being unwilling to go it alone (the teabagging right).
? Martin
@chopper: From the tone of the apologies, his interpretation was that the execs weren’t surprised at the content – merely that it went to so many employees.
Ted & Hellen
So, I’m going to take a wild guess here that the U.S., despite all appearances and claims to the contrary, does indeed possess stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons.
Will the U.S., as the rogue power it has shown itself to be over the last 12 years and in an effort to show it’s good faith and to live by its own alleged rules, be turning its own biological/chemical weapons over to Russia also? Or maybe to Syria? China?
Thoughts?
Another Holocene Human
Why do so many white lefty/liberals have Obama Derangement Syndrome? Seriously, I’ve been noticing for a while that sane commentary these days is dominated by African Americans (I said dominated, not exclusive domain thereof before you prepare your 500wd screed defending yourself) and then it hits me: ODS. Clearly, the Black community is immune, but gobs of white so-called progressives, liberals, and pinko commie queers are infected.
What the hell? Is it really so simple? My kindergarten principal was Black. Mr. Andrews. I loved him. He resembled Obama in the sense that he was tall and really gentle with kids. He used to open my soup jars when my mom sealed them too tight. Then he was replaced with the evil “Bunny” Meyers … I’d say more, but let’s not quibble about ‘oo threatened to call CPS on ‘oo because this is supposed to be an ‘appy place.
Mr Andrews, thank you for some of the happiest memories of my childhood. I came from an abusive home and got bullied at school and life pretty much sucked around the clock. I found out later that a lot of the (almost exclusively white) PTA parents were a bunch of raging dicks to you and chortled with glee when you transferred to a different school system. I guess they got what they deserved when “Bunny” and her apparatchiks cut the PTA down to size (really) and started running things her way–her way or the highway. Ah, memories.
Hm, I guess I have just psychoanalyzed my 2008 primary vote, lol.
AHH+0, still in caffeine deficit actually and feeling maudlin
joes527
@Omnes Omnibus: Me neither, but the “it is all over” talk is probably premature too.
But things are defiantly looking better today than yesterday.
Anoniminous
@? Martin:
Yeah. It’s always a problem when the
wage slavesserfsemployees learn whattheir mastersupper management really thinks.pamelabrown53
@drkrick: Forget Peking Duck. Larger calves come naturally with geese: I say we need Hungarian Anchor Babies.
srv
@Mnemosyne: We are less interested in making Putin the hero and more into toppling Assad. Screwing them both would be a win for the neocons and their twisted-sister R2P crowd.
I’m sure Kerry can sabotage any UN or inspection process, ala Bush/Bolton. At some point (I’ll say by December), we’ll declare it a failure and bomb.
This admin has free reign to up the covert war, but it’s clear they are not willing to wait – and they know they can’t topple Assad without it getting hot.
ed – bookmark the comment and rub it in my nose in December if you want.
Another Holocene Human
@Ted & Hellen: The horrors of the bloodbath of FEMA Camp 51 will never be forgotten!
Omnes Omnibus
@srv: Evidence?
Betty Cracker
@cleek: Wait, what? You mean you can mention diplomacy and pressuring the Russians now and not be accused of being a naive, Obama-hating, PUMA firebagger who wants to watch Syrian children choke to death on gas? I’ll be darned.
? Martin
I don’t doubt that the current proposal to Assad was one of the possible outcomes (among dozens). I don’t think they would have expected it (or still expect it) to be a likely or realistic one.
For the sake of argument, let’s say everyone agrees to this – how do you do it? How do you cordon off large enough sections of Syria during a civil war to allow a whole lot of UN guys to go in and either truck this stuff off or destroy it in place? Don’t get me wrong, this sounds like a fantastic idea, but I don’t see how it happens. I can see Assad agreeing to it, and then trusting that the logistics of doing it become so burdensome that he can run out the clock for months. Saddam played that game as well. All of these guys do.
France thinks they have 1,000 tons of chemical and nerve agents. That’s a lot – and it’s spread out as well. So, while I really like this outcome over a strike, I’m having trouble seeing it actually happen.
gogol's wife
@scav:
Haha I just read that in “The Adventure of the Copper Beeches.” What a genius Conan Doyle was.
Xantar
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Today, I woke up and ate a Freedom Muffin with some jam and then went for a couple rounds at the local pool hall where I sank an amazing shot by imparting some Freedom on the cue ball.
Botsplainer
@Ted & Hellen:
I think they should just be dumped on whichever Best Western the Green Party holds their convention in in 2016.
JPL
@Punchy: Well, I didn’t see that one coming. Wayne LaPierre must be so proud, maybe he’ll volunteer to go target shooting with a few blind folk.
Chris
@RP:
This. I have no idea how much faith Obama actually put in a Russian intervention, but it seems fairly clear that he intended to explore diplomatic options to the full, even if force was never off the table. Now that Syria has said they’re interested, we’ll see how he reacts. The last five years of watching him govern give me hope, though.
cleek
@pamelabrown53:
i’d like to think this was all a clever play by Obama and Putin:
Obama: Vlad, I’m going to crank up the war talk for a week. it’s going to get heated. but you need to oppose me, at all turns, ok?
Vlad: OK. i will oppose. and after a week, we bomb?
Obama: no, after a week, you give Syria a way out.
Vlad: yes. better. I will ask for their CW.
Obama: yes! good idea. let’s do this.
*fist bump*
Vlad: but now i will be cold at you.
Obama: of course you will. that’s my Vlad!
makes for a better story than “Obama lucked out when Putin decided to be sensible for a change”
Omnes Omnibus
@Another Holocene Human: FWIW the US is about 90% through the process of destroying its chemical weapon stocks. The process takes time, and we had a lot of them.
MikeJ
@Mnemosyne:
More like, “tell your friend to stop being an asshole or I’ll shoot him.” I don’t think we were trying to get anything else out of Russia.
cleek
@Betty Cracker:
and i had just stocked up on all that industrial hand cleanser, for to wash the blood off my hands!
Shakezula
@? Martin: Next Stop – WingNut Talk Circuit. “I was a victim of the PC Nazi brigade!”
You’re right. They can’t help it.
Mnemosyne
@srv:
Works for me. Shall we place a small bet? Say, loser contributes $25 to Doctors Without Borders or Oxfam?
SiubhanDuinne
@Omnes Omnibus:
All you need to know about your “evidence” is in the twitter exchange one thread down.
Roger Moore
@The Other Chuck:
Not really plausible, since plenty of other cities (e.g. Boston and LA) have seen similar reduction in crime without stop-and-frisk or similar tactics. There’s been a large, across-the-board reduction in crime, and some trend for the reduction to be even bigger in big cities. There’s no good reason to give credit to specific police tactics.
Chyron HR
@Ted & Hellen:
I think we should use our entire chemical, biological and nuclear arsenal in a last-ditch effort to fight off these giant flying penises you keep screaming about.
Mnemosyne
@cleek:
And now Vlad can say to Assad, “Dude, you gotta listen to me, this guy Obama is serious! He really wants to take you out! If you don’t listen to me, he’s gonna blow the whole thing up! I tell ya, he’s crazy! I don’t know what he’s going to do next!”
? Martin
@Ted & Hellen:
‘all appearances and claims to the contrary’? Here’s a photo of some of our chemical weapons on Wikipedia.
So, neither appearance nor claims to the contrary. We have weapons stockpiled in two facilities still. We had 31,000 tons at the time we signed the convention, we’ve destroyed a bit over 90% of that so far and removed them from all foreign bases and most of the US bases. The two remaining bases have some of the hardest stuff to eliminate. They’re testing disposal methods and expect to have everything destroyed within 8 years. We’ve announced that we intend to keep a small amount for research purposes, just as we do with biological weapons.
We open our sites to inspection as needed.
You’re an idiot? And lazy.
Ben Cisco
@kc:
Grifters gon’ grift.
cleek
OTOH, the fact that the NYT says the whole proposal came about because of Kerry’s “offhand suggestion” (one that sounds totally sarcastic, in context) makes it highly doubtful that this was any kind of plan.
again: but i’ll take it, if it works.
pamelabrown53
@cleek: Here’s what I don’t get, Cleek. Obama as our first AA president started with a 30+ deficit behind Hillary Clinton, yet he played the long game and won not only the nomination but the election…and he did it twice.
I don’t know that Obama/Putin worked it out as per your scenario…in fact, I doubt it. My speculation is he found Putin’s ego a weakness to be counter punched.
Either way, I’m 60 and hope I live to see the closest actual historical record before I die.
Mnemosyne
@cleek:
I seriously doubt that I, a random commenter on the internet, was the first person to come up with the idea of having the UN put Syria’s CW under lock and key before Kerry made his “offhand suggestion” several days after I did. Who do you think I am, this kid?
Omnes Omnibus
@cleek: So you are going with Obama lucked out? No chance that military pressure and diplomacy were working in tandem? The fact that Kerry dropped a public hint and people picked it up and ran with it is coincidence?
SiubhanDuinne
Aaaaand, right on schedule, there’s a new Newsmax headline up:
(And why would anyone much care what Hoekstra has to say these days anyhow? He was out-primaried for Michigan governor by Rick Snyder [Rick Snyder!!] in 2010, and lost the Senate race to Debbie Stabenow two years later.)
Omnes Omnibus
@SiubhanDuinne: People wondered why Cole installed the Newmax thing on the blog. Everyone seems to be getting endless amusement out of it.
joes527
@Chris:
link?
No, seriously, what do you base the “fairly clear” part on? Because the public statements were all “We will bomb first. We can talk later.” I’m not saying that the public statements are all there is to know. Just wondering how you cot from there to “fairly clear” that diplomacy was the thing.
Did you look Obama in the eye and get a sense of his soul?
IowaOldLady
I don’t know what Obama pushed for, but I doubt if Putin did this without some wheeling and dealing going on. I’ll be interested to see what happens now. What’s Obama going to say tomorrow night?
? Martin
@cleek:
Yeah, that’s bullshit – at least his public comment being the offhand suggestion. The US, Russia, UN, and Syria all agree in principle to something within 24 hours? Doesn’t happen. Someone floated the idea a week ago or so. Maybe Obama/Putin, maybe Kerry with other nations involved, maybe Rice in the UN, maybe it was Putin’s idea. But Kerry wouldn’t mention it unless Russia or China would support it, and Putin wouldn’t support it unless he had already called Assad. Job #1 for these guys is to not embarrass yourself.
Suffern ACE
@srv: Wow. Just. I mean. Seriously, Bush is gone. Get over it. I’m no fan of the “Red Line” dick swinging, but good Lord. Get over it. Would you wait until they reject the diplomatic overature before you run BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH LIED LIED LIED crying down the street?
sparrow
@? Martin: You are awesome. And LOL.
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
Oh, c’mon, it’s not like diplomats ever orchestrate public demonstrations of things that they’d already come to terms about behind the scenes, right? That’s just crazy talk.
I find the China aspect really fascinating. My guess is that there was a calculation that making public threats to a country that is very interested in saving face/its public image was only going to backfire, so, again, the US used Syria and Russia as the demonstration models of what the US was prepared to do if necessary.
? Martin
@joes527:
Well, Obama did say that was the plan. Try and get the UN, or a coalition. He talked to G20, talked to Putin (the only point of which is to get a diplomatic solution). Kerry has been talking to everyone in the middle east (again, the only point of which is to get a diplomatic solution.) He’s done all the things we want him to do, it’s just you’re so hung up on the ‘we will go it alone if need be’ that you’re assuming bad faith on Obama’s part that he wouldn’t genuinely try and do all of the other parts. You’re assuming that because Bush did that, that Obama would.
kc
@Mnemosyne:
Cacti and Botsplainer posted enough for 50 people.
joes527
@? Martin:
US officials subsequently clarified that Mr Kerry was making a “rhetorical argument” rather than a serious offer.
Now, it is possible that the walkback was someone not in the loop thinking he was covering Kerry’s ass.
And it is possible that Kerry was just shooting off his mouth, and Putin decided to call him on it.
RP
@Betty Cracker: So is your position that the threat of military action has had no impact on the diplomacy? Or do you have any other ways we can get leverage on Russia and Syria without threatening military action?
Omnes Omnibus
@joes527:
I would say there are a few things. First, if we were just going to bomb, there was no sense in waiting. Just do it and get it over with. Second, articles like this show that there were continuing talks among the various parties. (Read the article not the headline). Third, this isn’t the Bush Administration. I don’t see these guys as people who want to get their war on. I think they were willing to do it, but any non-sociopath is going to choose a diplomatic option that gets a desired result over a military option.
kc
@Ben Cisco:
I reckon he’s looking forward to getting some sweet voucher money as red states continue
to privatize education.
Mnemosyne
@joes527:
Or, it’s possible that it was the plan for how to make the offer without the US appearing to back down. I mean, really, Kerry just happens to make this off-hand, rhetorical remark in public while Russia’s representative just happens to be meeting with Syria’s representative at the same time? What an amazing co-inkydink.
Ben Cisco
@Another Holocene Human:
Worst. Candy. EVAR.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: Come on, Kerry is an obvious warmonger and an incompetent. Right?
cleek
@? Martin: /
@Omnes Omnibus:
i don’t doubt they’ve been trying to work diplomatic channels. but is the notion here that they had all of this stuff in place and ready to go, just waiting for Kerry to float the idea ?
because if that was the sales pitch, it’s one of the worst i’ve ever heard – especially considering joes527’s link, above.
i think Kerry accidentally stumbling on something everybody could get behind makes more sense.
(he may be right about implementation – that sounds like a tough job. and it will involve … troops)
Chris
@joes527:
Every single fucking step his government’s been taking for weeks which if you haven’t noticed still hasn’t consisted of dropping any bombs on him. In other thing, everything that’s just been said to you already.
Yes, I know. Obama = Bush. Argle bargle. QED.
Mnemosyne
@cleek:
Russia jumped on the idea awfully quickly, if that was the case, and got Great Britain, France, and China to go along with it in record time as well. Almost like they had a plan in their back pocket that had quietly gotten worked out over the past couple of weeks of public dick-swinging.
I suppose it’s possible that it’s all a happy coincidence, but what does Occam’s Razor tell you?
Omnes Omnibus
@cleek:
Keeping expectations down? I wouldn’t say that the administration was working with this result in mind. I would not be surprised, however, if this was one of several results that would be viewed as acceptable and would obviate the “need” for air strikes. IOW I am not willing to dismiss competence as an explanation for what is going on.
joes527
@Mnemosyne: Then why the walkback?
BTW. I’m not in the “dude, we are totally going to war” crowd, but I’m not in the “it is all over” crowd either. I’d feel much better and eleventy dimensional if it didn’t currently look like we were were trying to take back the our great success.
Mnemosyne
@joes527:
It’s not a walkback. It’s a this is still under negotiation, and we’re waiting to see what the counteroffer is.
Here’s a couple of quotes right below what you quoted:
Gee, it’s almost as though the US is letting Russia be the good guys who averted “American aggression” against Syria, isn’t it?
Omnes Omnibus
@joes527:
Keeping expectations down, perhaps?
cleek
@Mnemosyne:
it tells me this wasn’t a plan.
@Omnes Omnibus:
possibly.
i still think it’s a happy accident. but, i’ll be happy if i’m proved wrong! i like Obama and i’d enjoy knowing that he was a brilliant foreign policy chess player.
Omnes Omnibus
@cleek: Again, I am not willing to dismiss competence as a explanation.
SiubhanDuinne
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh, it’s wonderful fun. I admit, when it was first installed (I think concurrently with the site revamp that took away “Recent Posts”), I accidentally clicked on stories, thinking they were BJ threads I’d missed. But scalding my eyeballs like that quickly trained me out of that habit. Now I just enjoy the headlines and try to imagine how boring the actual stories must be.
hoodie
@Mnemosyne: And thus saving face for Assad and Putin? Maybe that 20 minute conversation Obama had with Putin at the G20 was a threat to shoot Assad in the head, delivered in person, and they canceled the previously-scheduled meeting because it was not going to be a negotiation. That did seem weird at the time. Kerry then followed up with a way out.
SiubhanDuinne
@Ben Cisco: LOL!!
joes527
@cleek:
I’m with you, but am at a loss as to how anyone arguing for “this was luck”/”this was skill” could be proved right/wrong.
None of the people who actually know what is happening are posting here. And the “whole story” that eventually comes out will be … incomplete. (Not a slam on Obama. This is how the world works. Always has. Always will.)
chopper
it’s the progressive code. if things work out, it’s clearly in spite of obama trying to fuck it all up.
Betty Cracker
@RP: My position is that people who were loudly proclaiming that bombing is the ONLY solution and making outrageous and stupid claims about people who weren’t on that bandwagon shouldn’t try to seize a possible diplomatic development as vindication of their brain-dead and freeperish position.
Belafon
@cleek: I will completely admit that I was in the camp in favor of strikes. My reasons were not for punishment; I figure if you want to punish a leader, you remove them from power. My reasons were entirely to disable the ability to use chemical weapons. In that regard, this solution works just as well.
Omnes Omnibus
@joes527: The problem is that it’s always a little of both. The key is recognizing an opportunity and seizing it. Which appears to be what is happening.
Mnemosyne
@chopper:
Yep. No matter how many times things just happen to work out, it was all due to blind luck and had nothing at all to do with any actions the administration took.
It gets a little tiresome, frankly.
srv
@Mnemosyne: Oh, I’m fine with that, but you do know that some are saying Doctors w/o Borders is part of teh conspiracy?
Of course, I put the Examiner somewhere right of the Telegraph.
Mnemosyne
@cleek:
Why? I’ve laid out my reasons for thinking that this was at least one of several possibilities that was planned for. What’s your reasoning for deciding that it was blind luck that the Russians just happened to jump on?
Note that I’m also assuming that the people who were saying how weird it was that Kerry was suddenly acting so out of character were right — it was weird, and it was calculated for effect.
chopper
@Mnemosyne:
dontcha know, obama’s had everything handed to him.
Lady Bug
@Mnemosyne:
I really didn’t watch the news this weekend, but what was Kerry doing that was out of character this week?
Anna in PDX
@Ted & Hellen: The US signed the Chemical Weapons Convention and is behind on its own schedule to destroy chemical weapons, but it has destroyed about 2/3 of them.
The US had more chemical weapons than everyone else combined, and apparently they take time to destroy safely. You could look this up.
We are a signatory to the Chemical Weapons Convention, if Syria signs on and gets rid of its weapons, this would be a good thing. If we could get rid of all of ours and not keep resetting the schedule that would be a good thing.
These things don’t happen overnight.
Mnemosyne
@Lady Bug:
Dick-swinging. Basically, Kerry was the one running around pushing the case for war and insisting that we had to strike immediately, which led to a lot of Do you want to ask someone to be the first man to die for a mistake? comments.
Lady Bug
@Mnemosyne:
Thanks
Mnemosyne
@srv:
Meh. This is why Doctors Without Borders keeps having to send out press releases saying, Look, we have no way of knowing who did this or exactly what they used, we’re just saying that we treated patients for chemical exposure.
At least you’re not with the guy who was here last week trying to claim that what happened was that a farm supply store got blown up and released pesticides, which were mistaken for a chemical attack. Yes, apparently he thought that Damascus has a farm supply store on every corner, like Starbucks.
hoodie
@Mnemosyne: ‘Enough with the dicks already. They’ve been waving, swinging, spinning and getting stepped on and, frankly, they’re worn out. I assume the substitution of “first” for “last” was intentional.
? Martin
@cleek:
Could be. My only doubt here is how quickly it went from idea to so many parties signing on. That seems very unusual.
srv
There you go.
Another Holocene Human
@Omnes Omnibus: tsk tsk he said bio and we’ll always have anthrax, baby
Mnemosyne
@srv:
It’s a good thing Syria has absolutely no incentive to try and make the US look like assholes by complying. Nope, I’m sure they’ll decide that it’s in their own best interest to throw a temper tantrum and justify everything that Kerry has been saying about them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Another Holocene Human: We have small supplies at Fort Detrick for research purposes.
The Other Chuck
@danielx:
Nope, still had that pesky Darwin fella running around. Considering some of them have been decrying the enlightenment you have to rewind to sometime before 1650
Another Holocene Human
@chopper: The man has the luck of the Irish, i tells ya, almost as if–
Another Holocene Human
@Omnes Omnibus: Not just there.
Suffern ACE
@Lady Bug: for the role of Secretary of State, calling for war is unusual. Especially since the secretary of defense was rumored to be against it. We had this before with Libya when Gates was opposed but Clinton was for. It seems kind of backwards. The army wants talks and diplomacy. The diplomats want air strikes and weapons transfers.