Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Hey Washington Post, “Democracy Dies in Darkness” was supposed to be a warning, not a mission statement.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

With all due respect and assumptions of good faith, please fuck off into the sun.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

Not rolling over. fuck you, make me.

Petty moves from a petty man.

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

Sadly, media malpractice has become standard practice.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

Republican speaker of the house Mike Johnson is the bland and smiling face of evil.

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

You cannot shame the shameless.

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Jesus watching the most hateful people claiming to be his followers

It’s the corruption, stupid.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

The real work of an opposition party is to oppose.

They are lying in pursuit of an agenda.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

People are complicated. Love is not.

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Reader Interactions

279Comments

  1. 1.

    piratedan

    so I expect that with the NEXT national or international crisis everyone will be “all in” again about how this is the final straw with Obama and how it will all be his fault yet again for not conforming to whatever initial outrage/poutrage is initially proposed as the “right thing to do” in the media.

  5. 5.

    Person of Choler

    The NSA intercepted a call from Assad to Putin, both laughing and saying “Can you believe that this is working?”

    Now Obama has to start talking about bombing again. Or is he changing his mind again?

  6. 6.

    burnspbesq

    If a serious discussion of the possibility of Syria giving up its chemical weapons is the result of a “gaffe” by Kerry, let’s have some more gaffes.

    Yes, there are issues about inspection, and yes, there are issues about keeping precursor chemical inventories from being rebuilt. But as long as we’re talking, we’re not expending ordnance and we’re not killing people. Churchill wasn’t far off when he said that “jaw, jaw is better than war, war.”

  9. 9.

    Cacti

    @Person of Choler:

    The NSA intercepted a call from Assad to Putin, both laughing and saying “Can you believe that this is working?”

    Now Obama has to start talking about bombing again. Or is he changing his mind again?

    Slow day at Infowars?

  10. 10.

    Cassidy

    I’m just wondering if our resident jackassed FPers feel stupid or are the gonna put up some more dumb shit about how this was going to be just like Iraq because shut up?

  12. 12.

    Comrade Dread

    I feel like there’s an epic Yakov Smirnoff “in Soviet Russia…” joke in here somewhere but I can’t find it. Any suggestions?

    Not sure, maybe something about gassing hostages to save them from terrorists.

  13. 13.

    Cacti

    @Cassidy:

    I’m just wondering if our resident jackassed FPers feel stupid or are the gonna put up some more dumb shit about how this was going to be just like Iraq because shut up?

    At Balloon-Juice, certain FPers only support intervention when the WMD are fake.

  15. 15.

    dmsilev

    @Cacti:

    Rand Paul will be giving the response to the POTUS address.

    Remind me again when it became standard for every Presidential address to get a “response” from the opposition? State of the Union, sure, that’s been going on for a while, but everything else? Not that those responses seem to do anything, and especially not when coming from a grade-A moron like Rand.

  18. 18.

    celticdragonchick

    @dmsilev:

    Remind me again when it became standard for every Presidential address to get a “response” from the opposition? State of the Union, sure, that’s been going on for a while, but everything else? Not that those responses seem to do anything, and especially not when coming from a grade-A moron like Rand.

    I hope somebody puts a water bottle just out of reach while he is on camera.

  22. 22.

    Cacti

    @dmsilev:

    Remind me again when it became standard for every Presidential address to get a “response” from the opposition? State of the Union, sure, that’s been going on for a while, but everything else? Not that those responses seem to do anything, and especially not when coming from a grade-A moron like Rand

    Responses to official speeches from the POTUS (dem or rep) rarely work, and usually just make the speaker look small in comparison.

    Also too, drink any time baby doc mentions Benghazi.

  25. 25.

    Botsplainer

    Mitch the Bitch is doing his best to kneecap the deal by announcing his opposition.

    There’s always electoral primary profit to be made from teatards by reflexive opposition to anything Obama likes.

    If I were Obama, I’d say I love the flag, NASCAR, that Lee Greenwood song, the Troops committed to overseas conflicts and liver, then would announce my newest public awareness campaign against people pissing on live light sockets.

  26. 26.

    SusanS

    When we elect a President, we trust that Administration to govern in a world filled with dangers and tragedy. I think we just witnessed a brilliant dance of diplomacy..President Obama worked with the Russians..I suspect it was 24 hours every day..and his people and their people pulled it off. It would not have happened if a strike hadn’t been a legitimate and imminent threat. When history is written, this man will be celebrated for his extraordinary grasp of behind the scenes conversations and considered responses, in spite of an absolutely embarrassing American press and its pundits..and yes, I do consider the anguished and angry BJ’ers part of that mob.

    Three words..I got this.

  27. 27.

    MikeJ

    @Cacti:

    Rand Paul will be giving the response to the POTUS address.

    I remember when they used to say “politics stops at the water’s edge.” I had always guessed they really meant, “don’t argue with Republicans.”

  28. 28.

    ira-NY

    Calamity Jane’s Firebaggers are in high dungeon over this “fortuitous stumble.”

    It is amusing, but sad that their animosity towards Obama exceeds their ability to embrace the possiblity of a good outcome.

  30. 30.

    chopper

    @Redshirt:

    forever and always. internet liberals have gotten to the point where they reflexively oppose the president just as much as the goopers do. i guess cleek’s law has a corollary now.

  32. 32.

    Cacti

    @SusanS:

    When history is written, this man will be celebrated for his extraordinary grasp of behind the scenes conversations and considered responses, in spite of an absolutely embarrassing American press and its pundits..and yes, I do consider the anguished and angry BJ’ers part of that mob.

    Three words..I got this.

    Contrary to popular belief, one does not become the first non-white POTUS in US history by being a dimwitted naif who needs bloggers to lead him around by the hand.

  33. 33.

    Feudalism Now!

    In Post-Soviet Russia, Putin’s solution is to ‘watch’ everything.

    Talking will accomplish more than ordinance, even if it leads to nothing. Bomb, bomb, bomb bomb bomb-Assad is tantrum diplomacy. Rawr Hulk smash pointless structures and cause collateral damage and deaths! Why no one love Hulk?

  34. 34.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    While this will advert war it still doesn’t deal with the underlying problem in Syria and the rest of the Middle East – food. So on to the next crises.

    And something else; why is everyone so shocked at a diplomatic solution? Do they really think nations go to war for the best kills verse death ratio like a WoW PvP serveR?

  35. 35.

    MomSense

    @celticdragonchick:

    I’m hoping for a whole new type of funny.

    We’ve had Kenny the Page Jindal mocking volcano monitoring right before a massive volcano stopped international travel for months.

    Who can forget the spectacle that was crazy eyes Bachmann–that was amazing.

    We had the Rubio dry mouth and lunge for water. I don’t remember a thing he said what with all the eye darting and nervous fidgeting.

    Maybe this time we will get profuse sweating or some juicy and inappropriate comments when he thinks the cameras aren’t rolling.

  37. 37.

    patroclus

    In America, they have fun movies like Galaxy Quest with villains named “Sarin.” In Syria, they think it’s fun to shoot videos of people being gassed with sarin.

  40. 40.

    Belafon

    @Person of Choler: Are you watching/reading the news? Obama has said that this is a good development, but until we see results, he’s not stopping military preparation. Just like he should.

  43. 43.

    srv

    Student Loan Bubble to Burst

    The largest bank in the United States will stop making student loans in a few weeks.

    JPMorgan Chase has sent a memorandum to colleges notifying them that the bank will stop making new student loans in October, according to Reuters.

    These debtor kids need a war to be sent off to

  47. 47.

    Amir Khalid

    My sense of it is, this was a good-cop/bad-cop play with a twist: the US playing bad cop with Syria, because it was more plausible in that role, while Russia was playing good cop. It’s been well-played so far, but the game isn’t quite over yet. I’m hoping for an announcement that a deal ofr Syria to hand over its chemical weapons is in place, and its implementation has about to begin.

    This doesn’t sort out the civil strife, or the Assad regime’s fate, but only Syrians themselves can do that. A chemical weapons deal would stop their use in hostilities; aside from humanitarian aid, I reckon that’s as much as can be done (or should be tried) from outside Syria.

  48. 48.

    El Caganer

    So if the President’s speech is along the lines of “we are working on a very promising diplomatic solution with other interested parties,” what does that leave Senator Noforeignwars Freedumb with? “Me too?”

  50. 50.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @burnspbesq: If a serious discussion of the possibility of Syria giving up its chemical weapons is the result of a “gaffe” by Kerry, let’s have some more gaffes.
    Seems to me that minor detail is getting lost in Russertian-Politico- who won the morning? folderol

  52. 52.

    Cacti

    @ranchandsyrup:

    Syriasly, I hope that Rand Paul has a Jindal/Kenneth the page moment tonight.

    I hope his wig starts to slip under the glare of the lights, like his old man’s eyebrow started to slip at one of the GOP debates.

  54. 54.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @El Caganer: Nah, more like: “Obama is doing too much and too little. And in the wrong order. This shows that he is a weakling who is too powerful.”

  55. 55.

    Anoniminous

    @burnspbesq:

    Sarin is methylphosphonofluoridate. Methyl is a derivative of methane. So commonly available as to be unremarkable. Syria is estimated to have ~10% of the global supply of phosphate bearing ore. Fluorine is widely available and is in the second tier of most common elements.

    Trying to interdict precursor chemicals is a mug’s game.

  57. 57.

    shelly

    With things taking a turn towards a diplomatic solution, I wonder what this evening’s speech will cover.

    “Let’s open up the floor to hear-say and innuendo.”

  58. 58.

    different-church-lady

    @Cacti:

    With things taking a turn towards a diplomatic solution, I wonder what this evening’s speech will cover.

    Perhaps… the turn towards a diplomatic solution?

    With a side helping of, “but if that doesn’t work…”

  59. 59.

    MCA1

    When I see Obama get Putin to make Assad give up nerve gas, I think, what a country! In America, President play chess so he can remove gas from opposition. In Soviet Russia, President gas opposition so he can play chess.

  61. 61.

    Gopher2b

    @MomSense:

    I think it’s going to be a speech utterly disconnected from yesterday’s and today’s news, mixed in with anger and self-doubt while he internally acknowledges that his words make no sense. That should creat done good twitches.

  64. 64.

    different-church-lady

    @Cacti: Gonna be very interesting to see him explain how it it is that if Obama takes military action he’s against it, and if Obama doesn’t take military action, he’s against that too.

  65. 65.

    different-church-lady

    @Gopher2b:

    With things taking a turn towards a diplomatic solution, I wonder what this evening’s speech will cover.

    In other words, boilerplate.

  66. 66.

    joes527

    @different-church-lady: I see that … but I’m having a hard time to see how that works.

    The vote was looking highly unlikely before the weekend’s developments. While “stand firm” might sway a few D’s that were leaning “no,” I’d guess an equal # on the fence would go with “no need now.”

    Even if I’m wrong there, I have a hard time seeing the R’s in the House handing Obama a victory if they think that they might not even get a war out of it.

    Isn’t “decision on hold while we explore developments” a stronger position than “the house has voted ‘no’?”

  68. 68.

    Mnemosyne

    @Anoniminous:

    It’s probably in Assad’s best interests to at least allow monitoring of those precursors so he doesn’t get accused of producing new ones.

    Assuming this deal goes through, the good thing about it is that it completely de-incentivizes either side from using chemical weapons. Even if Assad keeps a few hidden away, defying the ban would lead immediately to military strikes, so he won’t use them. It also de-incentivizes the rebels from using them because they won’t be able to blame them on Assad — Assad will be able to say, Hey, my stuff is under lock and key, so it was obviously the other guys who did it.

  71. 71.

    Mike in NC

    @dmsilev:

    Rand Paul will be giving the response to the POTUS address.

    Didn’t work out so great for Jindal or Rubio (AKA rising Republican “rock stars” according to the media), so Rand is likely to also step on his dick.

    Please proceed, “doctor”.

  73. 73.

    chopper

    @Mnemosyne:

    of course, people would just accuse assad of keeping some for himself.

    although it probably wouldn’t be too hard to prove it either way if inspectors get in and take samples after any attack. while sarin can degrade quickly, samples could still show if it was well-made military-grade stuff with stabilizing agents etc or hastily-made shit that opposing forces would cook up.

  74. 74.

    scav

    @Amir Khalid: If so, epic casting against type, the Nobel Peace Prize NoDrama role morphing into the whirling-eyed bomb-flinger being held back by the bare-chested post-KGB egotist. aaahhhhhhhh. Triumph of CGI.

  76. 76.

    different-church-lady

    @Ben Cisco: Isn’t that going to be kind of embarrassing if the diplomacy route fails?

    None the less, I’m honored in a weird way, I suppose…

  78. 78.

    Gopher2b

    Defying whatever UN Resolution comes out makes Russia look terrible because they own this now. It doesn’t really matter (though it would obviously be better) if they destroy all the weapons.

  80. 80.

    ? Martin

    @srv: JPMorgan could have a very good market by backing job and wage growth, to take the pressure off of the debt/income ratio of grads, but that’s a lot harder than just bailing out.

    Assholes.

  81. 81.

    shelly

    “idn’t work out so great for Jindal or Rubio”
    *******
    Perhaps it was a bit unfair for Rubio’s whole speech to be overshadowed by that silly water-gulp, but you’d think these people, going all the way back to Nixon, would get it thru their heads that the teevee is a overwhelmingly visual medium.

  84. 84.

    Ash Can

    In defense of everyone who lost their shit over Obama even starting to make threatening noises regarding Syria, we all saw how well it turned out the last time our government did the high-dudgeon-over-chemical-weapons routine. Hell, the saber-rattling was making me cringe too; it brought back all sorts of bad memories. But I was never able to get as worked up as the “Obama’s as bad as Bush!” crowd because, well, Obama ain’t Bush. And now that certain people are applauding Putin for doing what they think Obama couldn’t or wouldn’t, it just makes me laugh. Yeah, the US president isn’t going to attempt any diplomacy at a G20 gathering, and no one there is going to pay any attention to what he says anyway. Uh-huh. We’ll probably never know what exactly happened behind the scenes to bring us to the current situation. But to try to claim that Obama and Kerry had nothing to do with it is just pathologically delusional.

  85. 85.

    Mnemosyne

    @Morbo:

    Oh noes! I’m sure that if Obama knew he was going to be mocked in Syria for going the diplomatic route, he would have dropped bombs on them after all to prove to them he’s a Real Manly Man.

  86. 86.

    Anoniminous

    @chopper:

    Yup.

    @Mnemosyne:

    Better to put the existing arsenal and production facility – facilities? – under UN control. Otherwise people will be running around tracking down insecticides — which are also organophosphates. As chopper noted, Sarin is easy to make, not so easy to weaponize and it’s more better to attempt to control the hard part.

    IMO. YMMV

  89. 89.

    ladybug

    Just some food for thought :)

    There are a lot of caveats of what could go potentially wrong. It takes time to dismantle a chemical weapons cache under normal circumstances, never mind during a brutal civil war. Even if the deal is signed and the inspections go as plan, there is still the underlying problem of the civil war, which is proving to be “nasty, brutish and never ending.”

    But those caveats out of the way, this is really good news.

    Furthermore, it’s looking more and more as if this was a masterstroke of diplomacy behind the scenes, with the very real threat of military action to back it up. http://thedailybanter.com/2013/09/the-deal-to-avert-war-syria-calls-to-mind-october-1962-not-march-2003/

    In addition to the fact that there have been diplomatic talks between Russia and the US since this whole thing began, the “coincidental” timing of Kerry’s “gaffe” having taken place right during Russian-Syrian talks, there were also “leaks” of military targets to be hit by the missiles. Now, this could be incorrect on my part, but if you’re going to strike a country, would you actual publicize the targets? Further more, there was also the “leak” that the administration had expanded it’s target list-again not something that you would probably want to publicize.

    That being said, I don’t think that the use of force is/was a bluff. I think Obama is willing to use force. I never subscribed to the “Obama is worst than Bush!” hyperbole (score 1 for me! ;) ) but I admit, I never even thought about the possibility that intense diplomatic work might have been done on the side. But, anything we know about this administration suggests that diplomacy would have always been part of the package.

    Yup, maybe Obama really did just “stumble” on the solution thanks to the miraculous work of Vladimir V. Putin, but a more likely scenario suggests that this was the result of the threat of real military action and intense diplomacy. You know something like, “in order to get peace, you must prepare for war…”

  91. 91.

    RareSanity

    How about…

    In Soviet Russia…we kill wars

    In all fairness, it’s not mine. I saw it in a comment on buzzfeed or reddit…can’t remember which one, but thought it was funny.

  93. 93.

    geg6

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Oh, it’s been “worse than Bush!” for at least a week now. In long, boring, excrutiating detail as to exactly what Sully expects Obama to do. The only thing he hasn’t called Obama is a fifth columnist. Yet. But when all this news was breaking last night, ol’ Andy suddenly went silent on Syria after a week of hysterics (it was only a week because Andy had been in P-town for a couple of weeks, ostensibly with no internet reading). Kinda like Cole, actually.

  94. 94.

    geg6

    @ira-NY:

    Mandalay has spent the last two days here being the ur-firebagger and saying everything a firebagger would ever say on the actual FDL. It’s been entertaining in the extreme to watch the horror set in that, once again, the incompetent and murderous Nobama has pulled another one off without taking an ounce of any of their advice.

  95. 95.

    lamh36

    Not for nothing, but I swear, this narrative that certain PBO critics & hell that some alleged supporters have that PBO is just the luckiest SOB on the planet is just getting ridiculous. I think at some point it may be realized that maybe it’s not jusy “luck” at all, but ya know actual planning and decision making?

    At what point will PBO be actually credited for having actual political skill? I suspect it’ll be once he’s out of office.

  99. 99.

    Keith G

    @Redshirt:

    That Obama is worse than Bush, am I right concern trolls?

    How very concern trollish of you,
    @SusanS: Wow. The man has made some serious errors in this affair. The good news is that he and his team might be both smart and lucky enough to to pull through this with a slight, albeit temporary, win. And I hope to Athena that this works out.

    Edit…@lamh36: Well, he has gotten his share (maybe more) of fortuitous bounces. It’s all good since that is part of what it takes to be on top.

  100. 100.

    Ash Can

    @Betty Cracker: Yes, I know it’s not a done deal till it’s a done deal. I’m not that stupid. But the fact is that even I didn’t think things would progress to this point this quickly, or this smoothly. And anyone who believes that neither Obama nor Kerry were involved in whatever it took to bring things to this point isn’t kidding anyone but themselves.

  101. 101.

    mdblanche

    But do you know who else threatened military action in order to pressure his opponents into agreeing to a favorable diplomatic solution?

  103. 103.

    ladybug

    @geg6:

    Haven’t read Sully since I saw a “worse than Bush!” tweet from him, but as of yesterday, he was apparently saying that Kerry made a “gaffe” and Putin seized on it, or something like that.

  104. 104.

    Mnemosyne

    @Anoniminous:

    I probably wasn’t clear — Assad will want to make sure that any precursor chemicals he has available are accounted for and put under lock and key with everything else. Since he keeps accusing the rebels of being the perpetrators, it’s in his own best interest to make sure he doesn’t have anything that’s easily traced back to him on hand.

  105. 105.

    Cacti

    @lamh36:

    At what point will PBO be actually credited for having actual political skill? I suspect it’ll be once he’s out of office.

    It’s just unpossible that the black guy could be the smartest one in the room. Otherwise, the white folks might have to reexamine everything they were taught to believe about themselves.

  106. 106.

    MomSense

    @geg6:

    I personally loved Sully’s whole ‘talking about the children who were victims is emotional blackmail’ routine. A civilized world sees no difference between combatants and children??

  107. 107.

    schrodinger's cat

    @lamh36: Just like Villagers fall all over themselves to proclaim their love for Clinton, they will love Obama when he is the ex-President and not actually wielding power. The Punditubbies can’t stand it, that Obama is smarter than them and makes them look like idiots on an ongoing basis.

  109. 109.

    ladybug

    @Botsplainer:

    Serious question here, why would Mitch McConnell have any say over a possible UN deal? He’s not at the Security Council he’s not POTUS or Secretary of State.

  111. 111.

    Cacti

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    The Punditubbies can’t stand it, that Obama is smarter than them and makes them look like idiots on an ongoing basis.

    It’s especially galling to them that Obama doesn’t indulge them, or pretend that they’re a smart or thoughtful bunch.

  113. 113.

    Amir Khalid

    @lamh36:
    Given how much the people you speak of despise Obama, I fear he could all too easily have a sane and successful presidency, and then never see the credit he deserves for it.

  114. 114.

    Mnemosyne

    @Keith G:

    Well, he has gotten his share (maybe more) of fortuitous bounces.

    “Chance favors the prepared.” — Louis Pasteur

    I doubt that Obama has gotten more lucky breaks than previous presidents, but he certainly has been able to turn those breaks to his advantage at a higher rate, which has more to do with skill than sheer luck.

    But I still think that the people who think it was a lucky break that Kerry just happened to make his “offhand” remark about what it would take for the US to back off bombing during talks that just happened to be taking place at the same time between Russia and Syria and that France and the UK just happened to be ready to jump on board immediately are, frankly, refusing to see their hand in front of their faces.

  117. 117.

    pamelabrown53

    @ladybug: Oh, muchas gracias for the link ladybug. Maybe, I’ll substitute “The Daily Banter” for pm carpenter, who I recently deleted.

  118. 118.

    cleek

    @ladybug:

    he was apparently saying that Kerry made a “gaffe” and Putin seized on it

    just note that this is what virtually every news organization on the planet had been reporting, all day yesterday.

  119. 119.

    ladybug

    @Gopher2b:

    Exactly. Putin gets to come across as a “serious statesman” and “hero for preventing World War III” etc. etc. (not saying that Putin doesn’t deserve any credit at all for any potential deal, after all, Russia (and Iran) is pretty much the only country with sway over Syria at this point.)

    Any bad press over Russia’s support Syria, denial of chemical weapons, Sochi Olympics and gay rights is suddenly halted by this new narrative of Putin as the savior.

    With this being seen wholly as “Russia’s deal” they now own it, and have an incentive to make sure it works.

  121. 121.

    Mnemosyne

    @ladybug:

    I actually wouldn’t be surprised if Iran also has a part in this, though it would have to be solely through backdoor channels since Idiot Son decided to throw Iran’s diplomatic overtures after 9/11 back in their face (thanks again, jackass!) Having total chaos in Syria doesn’t help them very much, plus they still have very unpleasant memories (and very damaged survivors) of Saddam’s chemical weapons use against them in the Iran/Iraq War.

    Which is another reason Obama may be willing to publicly look like the “bad guy” being held back by Putin — it gives the Iranians a chance to stand up to the Great Satan and side with Russia in pressuring Assad.

  123. 123.

    geg6

    @ladybug:

    Yeah, but when the real story started coming out, The Dish was pretty much silent about everything in Syria and much more concerned with atheists who pray. Really.

  124. 124.

    ladybug

    @Mnemosyne:

    I read an article relatively recently about the possibility of diplomatic talk between Iran and U.S. so yes that makes sense too :)

    *IF* it’s true, can you imagine the head sploddin; going around if people ever find out that the U.S., Russia and Iran to whatever degree worked together to possibly end Syria’s possession of chemical weapons?

  125. 125.

    Betty Cracker

    @ladybug: You mean the photos of dead kids? It’s an ongoing thing with him. Maybe he puts them below the fold now that he’s got a paywall up (I don’t read him that much anymore because I can get drivel free), but back when he was a free content purveyor, it was an issue that came up frequently, with him publishing awful photos of dismembered child bombing victims and readers pushing back on it and him countering that it was necessary to face the harsh truth because journalism.

  127. 127.

    lamh36

    @Mnemosyne: exactly luck only gets you so far. The luck construct is exactly what McCain and Clinton and even Romney all used as a way to discredit the achievement both candidate and President Obama made.

    Contributing luck to all that basically negates the completely crappy way all 3 Obama opponents ran their campaign. Naw that black guy didnt beat they azz was just lucky that’s all. Shoot if they had had his luck well hey things woulda gone differently…YEAH RIGHT!

  129. 129.

    fuckwit

    @dmsilev: Because Fair And Balanced! Both sides do it! He said, she said!

    Where’s that fucking meteor? I want it to hit the media so bad.

  130. 130.

    Keith G

    @Mnemosyne: Exactly…The other team fumbling the ball is not enough, one needs to be in position to cover the ball and complete the turnover.
    Yet about this…

    I doubt that Obama has gotten more lucky breaks than previous presidents,

    I think he and WJC are about equal in having the good fortune of an opposition party lost in a fog of stupidity and prone to exaggerated action and reaction.

    But never doubt that I give our President the highest of all marks for his amazing intellect. That is why I hold him a bit more accountable and find it unsettling when silly flubs are made.

  133. 133.

    fuckwit

    @Ash Can: This isn’t hard. Obama took Putin aside, and said, “Look I’m sorry my predecessors were such assholes about Georgia and Chechnya, and that my team stupidly ignored you when you warned us about the Tsarnaevs, lesson learned. We don’t have to agree on everything but we have a common interest as heads of powerful states to fight violent extremism. We have to work together. Letting chemical weapons use become normalized would be very dangerous for both of us. We have to keep people from using or stockpiling the stuff. We have to make it outside the pale and keep it that way. We’re in a tough position with this Assad business but we can get out of it. How can we work together to solve this problem while saving face? I’m open to any and all ideas.”

  134. 134.

    FlipYrWhig

    @cleek: I didn’t get why everyone was using the “wacky gaffe” framework all day. I also don’t get why the clip of Nancy Pelosi talking about how her grandchild felt about war in Syria was hi-larious, but both Lawrence O’Donnell and Jon Stewart thought it was self-evidently so.

    My sense is that most everyone leapt to saying that Obama was doing a piss-poor job of convincing people to support going to war. But if that’s not really what he was trying to do, the past couple of weeks make a lot more sense. Especially if you factor in his own opposition to the Iraq war, his belief in the humanitarian-intervention suite of approaches, and a dollop of regret for handling Libya in such a way that it’s kept coming up for a year, then the whole episode becomes “Shit’s getting bad. Let’s start brainstorming what to do about it and maybe a new idea will gain traction.” Which is, you know, what happened. Isn’t that classic community organizer stuff?

  135. 135.

    ranchandsyrup

    The transformation from looming head that can be seen from Alaska and threat to the free world to “leader of the free world” (Drudge) and Limbaugh’s mancrush is breathtaking.

  136. 136.

    hoodie

    @Cacti: What exactly is the nature of ODS? It may be a mistake to think it’s just one thing, it’s more like a cluster of diseases that have similar symptoms. In wingnuts, it’s mostly party tribalism and/or ethnic tribalism. In pundits, it’s more likely envy (the Salieri/Mozart scenario) and/or class prejudice. In some progressives, however, it seems like some sort of reflexive, blind anti-authoritarianism, like believing in an effective party leader automatically makes you a tool of the The Man.

  138. 138.

    Ben Cisco

    @different-church-lady: Not really; he did follow the preferred route, which is more than can be said for others. Nothing is 100% guaranteed anyway, and I’m willing to roll with him trying do go his way instead of following the NeoConfederates and their fluffers in the FerengiMedia.

  141. 141.

    Cassidy

    @hoodie: I think with the “true progressives” it’s passive bigotry. They’re supposed to be speaking for those people, not to them.

  142. 142.

    FlipYrWhig

    @hoodie: yes, it is a vein that runs rich and deep in leftish types — if you are reasonably satisfied with any authority, you’re a toady / patsy / tool.

  144. 144.

    ladybug

    @Mnemosyne:

    I also wonder what role Biden might have played in any possible stealth diplomacy? For someone who is “first person in the room and the last person in the room” he seemed (at least IMO) pretty absent from the admin’s public efforts this past week. Oh, sure there were some high profile meetings with Republican lawmakers, but with a few exception, he’s basically been absent this entire time.

    Again, this is all just speculation on my part. But, I wouldn’t be surprised if Kerry was the public face of the administration, and being the most vocal “hawk” in the administration; while a good deal of the actual diplomacy and heavy lifting was done by Biden backstage?

  145. 145.

    Belafon

    @Felonius Monk: Considering that half the time over the past week I’ve heard “Hell to the Chief!” I think the talk about how he’s acting like the president, which is the CiC, Prime Minister, and Lead Diplomat all in one, is worth having. What I’m not doing is thinking that anything has been resolved yet, which I am hearing from a number of people who think that this sudden diplomatic talk had nothing to do with the threat of force.

  146. 146.

    Jay C

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Nah, more like: “Obama is doing too much and too little. And in the wrong order. This shows that he is a weakling who is too powerful.”

    It would be funnier if it wasn’t even odds that this is pretty much exactly what Rand Paul IS likely to say: albeit with a lot more words…..

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Good basic, but needs better Smirnovization :

    “In America, you go get gas: in Syria, you go and gas get YOU!”

  147. 147.

    geg6

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    I don’t know that I agree with that. Clinton, as anyone can see, has a pathological need to be loved and was willing, ready and able to shmooze the punditubbies during and after his term. Obama had never shmoozed them and never will. They will hate him forever, I think. Or until their pasty white asses are dead and buried anyway.

  149. 149.

    Belafon

    @Jay C: It’s actually not that hard:

    The president, having stated that the use of chemical weapons was a line that could not be crossed, began building up for a military strike against a sovereign nation without the approval of either Congress or the UN. Then he let it be known that he would not use that force by having Secretary of State Kerry announce that there would be no reason to attach if the chemical weapons were placed under international control. Now, all a country has to do is gas their people and then run to the UN for safety.

  151. 151.

    Mnemosyne

    @Keith G:

    I think he and WJC are about equal in having the good fortune of an opposition party lost in a fog of stupidity and prone to exaggerated action and reaction.

    Not to sound really sick, but W got an incredibly lucky break with 9/11 that he was able to exploit to the hilt. He should have been nailed to the wall for it, but speaking of opposition parties prone to exaggerated action and reaction, I think the 2000-2005 Congressional Dems fit that to a tee and gave him a free pass he absolutely did not deserve. Again, lucky break for W that he managed to turn into a disaster.

  153. 153.

    geg6

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Sadly for them, they’ve already figured out that his kind of coolness doesn’t rub off on just anyone. And the only white people it does seem to rub off on seem to be nerds like David Plouffe. Who I, incidentally, find crazy sexy. Same with Nate Silver, who got the coolness rubbed off on him simply by being a smart liberal dude who regularly demonstrates what idiots the pundittubbies are, just like Obama. No punditubbies ever give an ounce of credit to either Plouffe or Silver. None of the three play the Village game with them and the Village will never forgive them.

  155. 155.

    Cacti

    Actual headline from Mediaite:

    Is CBS Reporter Margaret Brennan Responsible for Current Proposal on Syria?

    The lengths these people will go to, to avoid giving the POTUS credit for anything.

    smh.

  156. 156.

    MomSense

    @Betty Cracker:

    What he really said is that he has no doubt it causes the president legitimate emotional anguish but we have a duty not to let our frontal cortexes be flooded with it because those are the sorts of things that led us into the disaster of Iraq. The post is title “Dead Children as Talking Points” which is a pretty cynical way to describe why it is relevant.

    Below the fold he does refer to it as emotional blackmail.

  157. 157.

    Jeremy

    The Russians confirmed that President Obama and Sec. Kerry have been in contact with the Russians about this idea for weeks and even longer. I think when the President decided to ask congress for a vote that was the sign that they were willing to still strike, but at the same time create the space for possible diplomacy.

    There is no question that without the threat of a strike Syria would not have come to the negotiating table, and their foreign minister even admitted it.

  158. 158.

    MikeJ

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Just like Villagers fall all over themselves to proclaim their love for Clinton, they will love Obama when he is the ex-President and not actually wielding power

    It depends on what Obama does once out of office. One of the reasons the press loves Bill is that Bill loves the press. He can’t go 24 hours without finding a camera. And that’s fine, he does a lot of good with his celebrity.

    From a distance, Obama doesn’t seem to have the same need to be loved that Bill does. I imagine he’ll work for some charity and he’ll do press avails when he has to, but I would guess that if he never had to talk to another reporter as long as he lives he’d be ok with that.

  159. 159.

    Donut

    @Cassidy:

    Er, I wouldn’t be so confident that that this is all tied up and done with yet. The steps taken by Syria and Russia so far are but small reason for optimism. Assad sees this current deal I the works as a way to dig in me hang on, not give up. He’s playing long ball, and will be all too happy to thumb his nose at not only Obama, but also whomever occupies the Oval Office after him.

    I’m glad Obama seems to have calmed things down a notch, but without constant threat of force, Assad will backslide.

    There’s also no guarantee that an agreement all parties can/will tolerate is going to hold.

    This thing has a long, long way to go.

    The one Iraq analogy that actually may be apropos, but no one seems to be catching on to, is how long Saddam held out. Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, and finally GW Bush all had to deal that guy. Look, also, at how long Ghadaffi stayed in power, thumbing his nose at multiple US presidents.

    Yep, this is the Middle East. We are just getting started on this. If you think Cole or anyone else who is wary or outright opposed to what we are doing with Syria has been proven wrong about anything yet, you’re not to he taken seriously. This will be a slog, like our dealings with every other Middle East nation. We are the only real hegemon on the block, and this is what we reap from Bush Sr sowing that seed back in the Gulf War.

    But you go right ahead and keep your disgust/resentment/condescension/whatever boner going. You’ve been fucking that chicken for weeks now, so obviously it’s working for you on some level.

  160. 160.

    ladybug

    @Cacti:

    Well, I’m OUTRAGED! Just this Sunday, I posted here on BJ that I thought that the compromise to allow Assad to give up his CW or face military strikes should be pursued, but am I getting any credit?!

  162. 162.

    Tone in DC

    When I see Obama get Putin to make Assad give up nerve gas, I think, what a country! In America, President play chess so he can remove gas from opposition. In Soviet Russia, President gas opposition so he can play chess.

    Good one.

  163. 163.

    Chyron HR

    @Donut:

    But you go right ahead and keep your disgust/resentment/condescension/whatever boner going. You’ve been fucking that chicken for weeks now, so obviously it’s working for you on some level.

    Mmmm, dat’s some goooooood irony.

  165. 165.

    askew

    It’s crazy to see the white pundits on the left cheering on Putin and reveling in putting down Obama as dumb. But, I’ve been told there is no racism with the professional left so I wonder what is causing them to cheer an anti-Gay dictator and hope a liberal president is humiliated?

  170. 170.

    Donut

    @Ash Can:

    Thank you for this post, I appreciate your agreement that people who have real reservations about American use of military force are not all just Firebaggers and overheated Kossacks screeching about Obummer selling out and being Hitler-Bush II. I have never said such things, but I have expressed legitimate beefs with the handing of the whole matter that have nothing directly to do with Bush and/or neocons. And I only qualified that last statement with “directly” because obviously, what a predecessor does and says has a huge impact on the successor. Duh.

  171. 171.

    Cassidy

    @Donut: Feel better? Good, now let me tell you why you’re a fucking idiot. Of course it’s not over you rube. Hell, I’ll be surprised if Syria turns over a quarter of its CW arsenal. This is all theater. That’s it. But, Assad has had his winkie slapped, Russia gets to oppose us and have Syria not be the asshole on the playground, Obama doesn’t bomb shit and never really wanted to, and lastly, Syria doesn’t use CW again except for small, ambiguous attacks with the next large scale use of CW committed by the rebels after they capture a stockpile. The rest of the world gets to go back to ignoring the civil war in favor their preferred sport, you still get to use dead metaphors, Cole can write about cats and contemplate life as the cat lady, and Mix and AL get put on suicide watch now that once again Obama isn’t worse than Bush, Mao, and Hitler having threesome while GG faps away and films it at the same time.

    Seriously, put some effort in next time.

  178. 178.

    Donut

    @Chyron HR:

    I don’t know how to interpret this comment, so…whatever.

    @FlipYrWhig:

    I still don’t get how you can seriously argue that the president did not intend to use military force all along. I agree, and am happy that back channel discussions with Russia and others continued, and I certainly don’t buy the gaffe meme,as respects Kerry’s statement yesterday.

    But I’ve yet to see a plausible theory laid out that supports this idea that Obama was but playing a high-stakes bluff.

    I think he had every intention all along of ordering some kind of attack, and likely still does intend to follow through at some point. If he doesn’t, Assad will backslide and continue to cause multiple problems. The Russian-brokered deal, again, is far from settled, and they have already rejected certain notions. There is not another precedent to suggest otherwise, that I know of.

    I don’t know everything, so I may be wrong, but I’d appreciate someone giving me an example otherwise.

    Presidents cannot bluff on this shit. They have to mean it, and follow through. They cannot ask 535 members of congress and senate to put their reputations on the line and schedule votes. There are reasons why Reid scuttled the senate vote yesterday. This theory just doesn’t add up for me.

  180. 180.

    cleek

    @Jeremy:

    Obama and his team have been talking about this with Putin and his team for some time now.

    yeah, maybe. but these aren’t the words of someone who thinks the talking is done:

    “All this will work only in case we hear that American side and all those who support it will denounce using force,” Putin said in televised remarks.

  182. 182.

    askew

    @cleek:

    The Nation is just one of many giddy over Putin putting Obama in his place:

    It’s tempting to enjoy the moment, that is, the humiliation of President Obama and the short-circuiting of his war push by a brilliant coup conducted by Vladimir Putin, that sly old dog and ju-jitsu expert, along with Russia’s ally, Syria.

  184. 184.

    jl

    @Morbo:

    My opinion is that in foreign policy you can’t always, or even usually, get the result you like, so you aim for the result you need to muddle through for the time being.

    Syria is a mess and will be a mess of oppression, violence and killing for a long time and there is nothing anybody can do about it. It doesn’t make any difference whether Assad stays, or his regime can hang on without him, or the rebels win. It’s a patchwork of ethnicities, religions and other distinct communities that have been held together by an oppressive regime that has made lots of deals with various groups. I guess the old Yugoslavia would be a comparison.

    I am skeptical about the wisdom of unilateral strikes to solve anything long term. Diplomacy is messy, frustrating and for a super hyper ultra superior moral power like the U.S. (as our foreign policy establishment and looks like most of the corporate press sees it) humiliating because we don’t get whatever we think we want right away, and we have to discipline ourselves not to blow up stuff and kill people for an undetermined period of time. But I think it is a far better way forward than bombing strikes.

  185. 185.

    Jeremy

    @cleek: It’s more geopolitical game playing. Obama is playing the bad cop and Putin is playing the good cop. Both sides will keep at it till a deal is reached.

    At this point I don’t know why anyone can’t see it.

  187. 187.

    Donut

    @Cassidy:

    Oh, fuck you, you self-righteous little turd. You sit there demanding that every FP-poster eat crow, then turn around with that bullshit, and say I’m the one bringing it weak? You are still nursing your hurt fee-fees over some drunk-ass posts Cole mad when a pit bull killed his cat. You cannot let it go. Grow the fuck up, already, you whiny little bitch.

    Ba-gok.

  188. 188.

    different-church-lady

    @Donut: He wasn’t bluffing — he was building options. I’m guessing that’s one of the reasons he didn’t set a timetable and didn’t rush the congressional vote.

  190. 190.

    different-church-lady

    @cleek:

    who is “cheering on Putin” ?

    There’s some easy nutpicking available over at the Diminished Orange Satan, but I’m feeling too lazy for even that right now.

  191. 191.

    Jeremy

    @different-church-lady: Yep. Though Putin’s spokesperson and the Obama administration admitted that they have had these discussions. I’m surprised that more news organizations are actually reporting it but they probably have no choice.

  192. 192.

    cleek

    @Jeremy:
    that’s not good cop/bad cop. that’s Putin trying to rub Obama’s nose in it.

    i think it’s a mistake to think Putin is in any way on our side against Syria. we’re all on our own sides.

  196. 196.

    lamh36

    @cleek:

    Can I just say, I love that people are treating Putin as if he is some honest player in all this…ABOVE President Obama.

    Of course Putin will put whatever spin on it that snubs Obama’s nose, so why use him as anything but BS

  197. 197.

    AxelFoley

    @Cassidy:

    I’m just wondering if our resident jackassed FPers feel stupid or are the gonna put up some more dumb shit about how this was going to be just like Iraq because shut up?

    I noticed Cole hasn’t been talking about Nobel prizes and swinging dicks lately.

  198. 198.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Donut: If the goal is to address the use of chemical weapons in Syria, this potential solution works at least as well as a military strike. As long as the process is is moving forward – and I would say that a two steps forward one step back process is still moving forward – no strikes will happen.

  199. 199.

    Gopher2b

    Just read breaking news that Syria will sign chemical weapons treaty. What’s the over/under that conservative media will start giving Bush credit for this?

  200. 200.

    different-church-lady

    @Donut: Fair enough, since while you were typing that, I was trying to redact my own comment to say, “Forget it, should have read through the entire exchange first”, but missed the 5 minute window by seconds.

  202. 202.

    Ben Cisco

    @Donut: Definitely not done.

    And still plenty of time for the usual suspects to toss a spanner in the works.

    Of course, for domestic consumption, our FerengiMedia™ is well primed to do what they do best.

    I sum it up thusly:

    Let’s be clear – #Syria isn’t done. PBO will worry that it won’t work. His critics will worry that it WILL.

  203. 203.

    Belafon

    @cleek: Obama got Russia and Syria to blink. I suspect next you will see Obama “blink” real slow and obvious: “Due to the actions of Russia, I have no choice but to pull some of the fleet out of the region.”

  205. 205.

    Jeremy

    @cleek: Who cares ? As long as a political solution is achieved it’s a win for both sides. Obama used the threat of force and Russia got Syria to the negotiating table. This reminds me of the Cuban Missile crisis with JFK.

  206. 206.

    chopper

    @different-church-lady:

    it’s also one of the reasons why obama is the president with major political accomplishments under his belt and donut is a random dude whose only accomplishments are ‘complaining on the internet’.

  208. 208.

    jl

    @cleek: No one will give a rat’s ass in history (or the next election) which leader guy was supposed to have looked like a doofus or genius, according to ignorant instant reaction analysis when no one knew what was going on behind the scenes.

    As more into comes out it does look like the diplomacy approach has been in the works for weeks. And it looks more like Obama’s bombing gambit was partly the stick that made things happen, and partly out of Ike’s playbook to confuse and distract people who could and would mess things up and play for time.

  211. 211.

    cleek

    @Jeremy:

    Who cares ? As long as a political solution is achieved it’s a win for both sides.

    if the starting conditions are still being negotiated, it’s not a “solution”, or a “win”; it’s the beginning of negotiations. those chickens haven’t hatched yet. they haven’t even been laid.

  212. 212.

    Belafon

    Here’s a hypothetical: what if Kerry’s slip was made to get the Russians and Syrians to move forward. I’m not surprised that Obama was in contact with Putin, but what if they were stalling on the idea, and so Kerry slipped it out so that other players could grab onto it?

    BTW, I’m only giving this idea a little credit. It’s just something to think about.

  213. 213.

    Cassidy

    @Donut: Booooorrrring. Look, you can get way with being dumb or boring or lacking anything regarding awareness, introspection, etc. When you start tagging two out of three, or all in your case, you should consider hanging it up. You’ve had a good run and we’re proud you made it this far.

    I’m feeling charitable, though. This was nothing like Iraq, nor was it ever going to be even with our chicken little FPers and their sycophants wanted to cry about. I mean, fuck, can any of you actually think?

  215. 215.

    Jeremy

    Funny how the emo progressives sound just like the right wing with their talking points praising Putin and putting Obama down.

    Everything they accuse Obama of being Putin actually is that way.

  217. 217.

    Mnemosyne

    @Donut:

    But I’ve yet to see a plausible theory laid out that supports this idea that Obama was but playing a high-stakes bluff.

    I think you’re misinterpreting what people are saying. We’re not saying that Obama was never going to use force — I think he was fully prepared to do it and was putting measures in place to do it. What we’re saying is that force was going to be his last resort and that he was going to exhaust all of the other possibilities before he ordered bombing to begin.

    As I said late last night, if you were working under the assumption that Obama really wanted to bomb Syria and was only using the chemical weapons use as an excuse, the US’s actions of the past 48 hours probably look very contradictory and chaotic. If you instead assume that the issue really was the chemical weapons use and priority #1 was preventing them from being used again, then everything makes much more sense.

    No, locking those weapons up is not going to do much to influence the ongoing civil war or gain regime change or knock Assad out of office, but I don’t think that was the point of the latest threat in the first place.

  218. 218.

    ladybug

    @Belafon:

    Genuinely curious, besides the fact that his spokesperson, “walked back the statement” after Kerry said it, what is making people thinking it was a gaffe?

  220. 220.

    Mnemosyne

    @cleek:

    if the starting conditions are still being negotiated, it’s not a “solution”, or a “win”; it’s the beginning of negotiations. those chickens haven’t hatched yet. they haven’t even been laid.

    Are bombs currently being dropped on Syria by the US? No? Then it’s a win. It doesn’t mean that bombs will never be dropped on Syria ever at any point in the future for as long as you’re alive but, jaysus, man, take a win when it’s handed to you.

  221. 221.

    Jeremy

    @Ben Cisco: Well we can’t give the hated negro credit. This like many events over the past 5 years have proven that the media, emo liberals, and right wingers have severe ODS.

  222. 222.

    different-church-lady

    @cleek:

    if the starting conditions are still being negotiated, it’s not a “solution”, or a “win”; it’s the beginning of negotiations. those chickens haven’t hatched yet. they haven’t even been laid.

    Use a tennis metaphor: the fact that we’re on a diplomacy path instead of a military path is a win, but it’s a set win or a break point — it’s not the whole match, but it’s a very significant development that could fairly be called a sort of win.

  223. 223.

    cleek

    @ladybug:

    besides the fact that his spokesperson, “walked back the statement” after Kerry said it

    that seems like a pretty big thing to “besides” !

    also, there’s the press’s characterization of the remark as “offhand”. and there’s the fact that he said, immediately after his offhand remark that “… he isn’t about to do it, and it can’t be done.”

    and, that his original words were:

    “Sure, he could turn over every single bit of his chemical weapons to the international community in the next week — turn it over, all of it, without delay and allow the full and total accounting”

    turn them all over in the next week? yeah right.

    but, it’s hard to tell with Kerry. he’s not exactly a smooth speaker, so maybe that was him being faux-casual.

  224. 224.

    Jeremy

    @Mnemosyne: Exactly ! This was about Chemical weapons from the start. Obama wanted to negotiate with the Russians to get both sides in the Syrian conflict to the table. The only reason why the administration talked about a strike (shot across the bow) was because of the chemical weapons use. Other than that the U.S. has done very little in the Syrian Civil War.

  225. 225.

    Emma

    @ladybug: Some idiot reporter said so and all other reporters jumped on it. Because that’s not how diplomacy should be conducted, according to The Village. The same village that did its damndest to sink Kerry’s presidential campaign by broadcasting every lie told about him.

  227. 227.

    ladybug

    @askew:

    facepalm, smh

    What I don’t get is that the media/blogosphere almost universally is playing this as “Kerry’s gaffe” and “Putin’s brilliant diplomatic skills.” that solely prevented war and saved Obama.
    I mean, I do understand that they’re called ‘villagers’ for a while, but as least as of yesterday, even Steve Benen, who I consider to be one of the best and most insightful bloggers out there, was repeating that line.

  228. 228.

    joes527

    @ladybug: in the speech itself … immediately following the suggestion, he labeled the idea “impossible.” That, linked with the spokesperson walk-back, sure makes it look that initially he was running away from it as fast as he could run.

  229. 229.

    Mnemosyne

    @cleek:

    How many steps in the right direction do you need before you can allow yourself to be happy about this development?

    ETA: And I’m kinda semi-serious about this. At what point will you believe that the US is willing to go with the diplomatic solution over the military solution?

  231. 231.

    Donut

    @Cassidy:

    I never said this was just like Iraq, you fucking imbecile. Please point me to my comments as such. I made a tangential reference to Assad being like any number of ME bad actors, and specifically said that was the only relevant reference to Iraq. You should maybe think about who the fuck you’re responding to before you act like such a fucking tool. All I said was, this shit is not over and done with, responding to your stupid-ass comment about front page posters being a bunch of clueless asswipes. They are not. You, apparently, are.

    Jesus fucking christ, your martyrdom is really impressive, even for the Internetz, bro. Maybe you should have a bong hit, a beer, something. Chill the fuck out. One day, with help and possibly some fucking Lithium, you’ll get over your mood swings and your weird-ass resentment of Balloon-Juice. Never have I seen someone hang on to a binky like you are with this fucking pit-bull thing. I am not telling you to leave off of commenting here at the hallowed halls of Ballon-Juice, but I do think it’s really fucking weird to hang around somewhere, so much, when you obviously fucking hate it so much.

    You are, in short, and splitting my infinitive, a fucking weird motherfucker with some weird fucking hang-ups.

  232. 232.

    cleek

    @Mnemosyne:
    i’m happy! now go get your mind-reader fixed!

    and when Obama and Kerry stop talking like they want us to be the world’s police force (in Syria), i’ll consider this a complete win.

  233. 233.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @cleek: Do you think that Biden’s gay marriage comment last year was a gaffe? It seems to me that the admin works this way – the “gaffes” are trial balloons – soft openings, if you will.

  234. 234.

    Mnemosyne

    @cleek:

    and when Obama and Kerry stop talking like they want us to be the world’s police force, i’ll consider this a complete win.

    Well, good luck with that. I doubt you’re going to find any president or SoS who will stop talking about the US as the world’s police force in the next hundred years or so. It’s kinda what we do, since the Monroe Doctrine at a minimum.

  235. 235.

    cleek

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    what Do you think that Biden’s gay marriage comment last year was a gaffe?

    impossible to say, Biden’s list of offhand gaffes is pretty impressive. it’s possible they used that to float a balloon. but Kerry isn’t Biden.

  236. 236.

    cleek

    @Mnemosyne:
    note that i added “(in Syria)” precisely to avoid such a response. because, ya know, we are talking about Syria.

    and, i’ll stick with my criteria. at least it addresses some of my primary concerns with this whole misadventure. “Putin made favorable noises! win!” doesn’t really cut it for me.

  237. 237.

    different-church-lady

    @cleek:

    and when Obama and Kerry stop talking like they want us to be the world’s police force (in Syria), i’ll consider this a complete win.

    Oh, so now it’s not a win until they take the Grand Slam?

  239. 239.

    Cassidy

    @Donut: Um, yeah. While I’m sure the Dr. Phil routine is filling a void for you, and I not stop you from getting why you need, you should know that all I read is “read past me. I’m a dumbass.” So, you go on with your bad self or whatever and I’m just gonna scroll right on past you. Now go get that hipster affirmation you so desperately need. I’ll even cheer for you like he end of Rudy.

  241. 241.

    askew

    @ladybug:

    What I don’t get is that the media/blogosphere almost universally is playing this as “Kerry’s gaffe” and “Putin’s brilliant diplomatic skills.” that solely prevented war and saved Obama.
    I mean, I do understand that they’re called ‘villagers’ for a while, but as least as of yesterday, even Steve Benen, who I consider to be one of the best and most insightful bloggers out there, was repeating that line.

    I am pretty disappointed in Steve Bennen. He’s been one of the few professional left that has given Obama credit throughout the years. He seems to have bought into Maddow’s ODS that assumes Obama is naive and not very smart. It’s a big problem on among the professional left.

  243. 243.

    cleek

    @different-church-lady:
    huh?

    the Putin/Kerry/Assad scheme is: Assad verifiability gives up his CWs, Obama stops threatening to attack.

    my condition for a ‘win’ is the second half of that.

    you think that’s a “Grand Slam” ?

    @Emma:
    don’t be an idiot.

  246. 246.

    jl

    Maybe one of the hardest things tin life is to admit to yourself that it is impossible to know what is really going on in national diplomacy as things develop. Maybe trying to do so gives the illusion that you have some control over the situation.

    What happened behind the scenes to prompt some of Obama’s moves that puzzled and consternated the talking heads? Who the hell knows? Did Assad need a threat to go along. Or the Russians and Assad. Or were the Chinese balking?

    Or, maybe Russia and China wanted assurances that those cute twins Gumps and Grahamcracker would not fly in someplace and make trouble, followed by a King, Bachmann and Gohmert stunt, and screw things up. So they wanted assurances that idiots in Congress would not get wind and make trouble.

    Or Obama thought it would be nice to eff with the GOP for while the grown-ups talked business.

    Who knows. We have a beginning towards some long term solutions which involve less killing. Who knows if it will work. You never know with stuff like that. I don’t see what is so hard about admitting the developments are a positive step forward, and speculating about what really happened and who is responsible for what is a mug’s game at this point.

    Syria is such a mess that any movement in a better direction is win, for the time being IMO.

    And for cleek: I don’t see how any US president is going to forswear the use of unilateral force to solve problems. That is just not the political reality of US politics, probably for as long as I live. So, I think whoever is president, you will be disappointed.

  247. 247.

    Emma

    @cleek: Idiot (n): one who observes another contorting him or herself into knots to avoid giving credit to a President he hates.

  248. 248.

    different-church-lady

    @Emma: To be fair, game metaphors suck when one is trying to be sincere. Arguing over the word “win” is a bit of a pointless endeavor as far as the real world is concerned. We all agree it’s a positive development, and most of us acknowledge it’s not the end of the process. Why belabor what it’s called?

  249. 249.

    Xantar

    @Gopher2b:

    Just read breaking news that Syria will sign chemical weapons treaty. What’s the over/under that conservative media will start giving Bush credit for this?

    I’m going to say same as the number who thought Obama was responsible for the poor response to Hurricane Katrina.

  250. 250.

    different-church-lady

    @jl:

    Maybe one of the hardest things tin life is to admit to yourself that it is impossible to know what is really going on in national diplomacy as things develop.

    Piece of cake for me, and probably a lot of other people who aren’t internet argument addicted (unlike myself).

  251. 251.

    Emma

    @jl: Diplomacy is best read about 20 years later. Everything looks a mess as it is happening. Behind the scenes stuff doesn’t surface until years after the event and the actors retire and write memoirs. The only thing we have to go by is results, but even that is ongoing.

  254. 254.

    MCA1

    @jl: This. And most of what Jeremy’s been saying. Threatening force the way the President did accomplished, or may have accomplished, at least two or three different things. First was scaring Putin, or providing him the cover to turn in the bad kid. There was never really any possibility Russia would have done a damned thing to stop limited NATO strikes, which would do considerable damage to Putin’s He-Man image. At the same time, since Syria’s basically a client state of Russia, he wasn’t going to do anything on the diplomatic front other than intentionally gum up the works. Actual threat of American force to which he couldn’t feasibly respond was the only way to either make Putin play, or allow him to save face in the end game.

    Another possible benefit was delay – by taking this to Congress, at least two weeks were bought at no price, other than possibly restoring some more appropriate balance between Executive and Legislative branches on things like military action. That came with the side benefit, of course, of getting Republican legislators, like the Pavlov’s dogs that they are, to show us their derrieres once again by forcing them to contort so hard around their own hypocrisy on Middle East show of force.

    What’s not clear is whether or not the Administration had/has any real appetite for actually following through if someone called/calls their bluff here.

  255. 255.

    jl

    Of course, in any delicate negotiation. everyone always is supposed to say exactly and only what they mean, never bluff, never try to appear as one thing while being something else, never giving false impressions, and you never give subtle hints that only certain parties would understand to explore possibilities.You certainly never say one thing in public and another thing in private. If you are a US administration official, you never try to mislead or beguile or distract Congress.

    Those are all first principles of delicate negotiations. The US corporate press corps and professional talking heads seem to understand all those principles, and I am very grateful that they are eager to explain them to me. I feel so educated and in-the-know.

  256. 256.

    jl

    And is it just me, or do other people sense the dissatisfaction of the talking heads over the very possibility of a diplomatic route. I mean it’s so haaaard, it takes so loooooong, and you have to deal with bad people like Putin and Assad. It miiiiggghht not wooorrk.

    Hilarious and disgusting to hear all these supposed serious old rich white farts for whom everything they want has been so easy moan and groan about diplomacy.

    Now, bombing! Good TV, more appearances. No one is going get much payola flacking for low level diplomatic and UN inspector and CW control forces negotiations. Dude, you can go on the TV and hawk the iron dome or cruise missile specs and performance for hard cash!

  258. 258.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Betty Cracker: Part of what you are seeing is relief that things are moving in a positive direction. Another part of it is annoyance at a perception that the move in a positive direction is either accidental or that it is in spite of what the administration has been doing.

  259. 259.

    Mino

    Gaffe/not gaffe…what about John Kerry’s statements using every cliche from the last admin’s war porn. I can’t be the only person thinking deja vu? Or an Onion skit? What part is he trying for…mad uncle?

  260. 260.

    Bob's Had Enough

    @MCA1:

    What’s not clear is whether or not the Administration had/has any real appetite for actually following through if someone called/calls their bluff here.

    We might check with that Osama guy and get his take on Obama’s steel.

  263. 263.

    jl

    ” We might check with that Osama guy and get his take on Obama’s steel. ”

    I agree with that. But the Osama guy problem was solvable by one missile strike or one military action. That Syria would be solvable by a dozen or a hundred is less certain. I give Obama credit for smarts as well as steel,

    So, I am withholding judgement on exactly what Obama really intended to do. People like Pat Lang freaked out and went apeshit when word got out that the military planning included widespread strikes that would seriously damage Assad’s ability to remain in power. Was that planning serious, or an exercise Obama asked for, to make an impression on Assad? Or Assad and the Russians to get them more serious? Or did Obama think those kind of strikes would accomplish something if diplomacy failed and a limited strike created a mess and then some gamble was needed? Who knows at this point?

    Edit: Or was Obama going to go GW Bush on the wisdom nation demolition and rebuilding? Who knows?

  264. 264.

    Mnemosyne

    @Mino:

    Gaffe/not gaffe…what about John Kerry’s statements using every cliche from the last admin’s war porn. I can’t be the only person thinking deja vu?

    I’m guessing that Syria and Russia were also thinking deja vu, which is why Syria agreed to weapons checks and Russia agreed to monitor them before Crazy Uncle Sugar started dropping bombs.

    Huh, it’s almost like we were all being manipulated or something …. nah, couldn’t be.

  265. 265.

    Betty Cracker

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’m certainly relieved, at least on an obligation-free, trial basis. I will be watching PBO’s address tonight with great interest!

    It just seems that poor Cleek — a fellow Obot, let’s not forget! — is being browbeaten for not clapping hard enough. (I mean browbeaten in a cumulative sense — the individual comments have been mostly polite and non-browbeaty.) I just thought it was kinda funny, is all.

  266. 266.

    Bob's Had Enough

    @jl: I doubt that any President of the United States would announce that he was willing to dump a bunch of hurt on another leader and then back off with a “Just kidding”.

    One just wouldn’t damage the office of the presidency in that fashion.

    Striking Syria was never about solving the overall Syrian problem, but stopping Assad from using chemical weapons again. It was not about changing the balance of power, but about delivering a significant punishment.

  267. 267.

    jl

    Or, did the military want to do planning for widespread strikes, because they wanted to plan for a lot of unpleasant and unwanted contingencies?

    All of this will make interesting reading in 20 years, as a commenter above said.

  269. 269.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Mino: I don’t see it that way at all. It looks to me like Kerry was tasked to push the case for the military option while the diplomatic side went forward as well. That’s all I see in it. YMMV and obviously does.

  270. 270.

    Mnemosyne

    @Mino:

    Why does Kerry need gravitas? He’s not the president.

    I’m guessing that we would not have gotten to this result without the US being very, very serious about airstrikes, and I think we’re still serious about airstrikes if this deal falls through. You’re assuming that Kerry and Obama were somehow lying or bluffing the whole time, when I don’t think that’s the case. I think that if this deal had not been agreed to, the fighters would be fueling up right now.

    You don’t have to drop bombs to prove that you’re “serious.” That’s Republican thinking.

  271. 271.

    Mino

    @Omnes Omnibus: Well, he could have pushed the military option without looking like a Bush-era mini-me. He did not impress me as serious. I thought he was demented. Even phoning it in.

    I doubt that will help much in the upcoming Israeli/Palestinian negotiations. Don’t think they will be impressed.

  272. 272.

    cleek

    @jl:

    And for cleek: I don’t see how any US president is going to forswear the use of unilateral force to solve problems.

    right. and that’s not what i was talking about. i was talking about Syria. not all Presidents forever under any circumstance.

    Syria
    Syria
    Syria

    if Obama backs off the war talk over Syria, i’ll take that as a win.

  273. 273.

    cleek

    @Betty Cracker:

    Cleek, goddamn it! Be assimilated already! There is no escape! Resistance is futile!

    i thought i already was with it. but then they changed what “it” was. now, what I’m with isn’t it, and what’s “it” seems weird and scary to me !

    where’s my onion?

  274. 274.

    jl

    @cleek: Ok, then there is hope for you. But to amplify

    “And for cleek: I don’t see how any US president is going to forswear the use of unilateral force to solve problems (in any and all foreign policy situations whatever, not involving people that are to much like middle class US white folks).”

    I mean, bombing stuff proves we are a ‘serious’ nation. People on the TV and radio tell me so every day.

  275. 275.

    Cacti

    @askew:

    It’s tempting to enjoy the moment, that is, the humiliation of President Obama and the short-circuiting of his war push by a brilliant coup conducted by Vladimir Putin, that sly old dog and ju-jitsu expert, along with Russia’s ally, Syria.

    The rage bots are completely flummoxed at this turn of events. Obama = Bush narrative ruined. So now, it must be: dumb negro POTUS is dumb and needed a white man to ride to his rescue.

  276. 276.

    ruemara

    @cleek: I understand what you’re saying and I’d just like to note that the reason why we have any sort of tentative agreement is the war talk. I am also someone that has been opposed to the very idea of strikes in Syria. It won’t stop, until all the conditions are met and even when it “stops”, it will still be an underlying threat. that’s just how it is.

  277. 277.

    Elie

    @Mino:

    Honestly, I have been lurking for weeks but reading diligently, and you — are either stupid beyond comprehension or made stupid by profound bias. Either way, its a walk on by type comment — but I just had to stop and make it.

  279. 279.

    cleek

    @ruemara:

    I understand what you’re saying and I’d just like to note that the reason why we have any sort of tentative agreement is the war talk.

    i understand that completely.

    the problem with that is that approximately zero of the people pushing for an attack were doing so with the idea that the threat of force would cause Assad to give up his CW. i saw nobody say anything about that. the idea did not exist, AFAIK. rather, all the war talk was about punishment. everyone from the President, to the SecState, to random House members, to TV yakkers, to the lowliest blog commentator were talking about punishment: Assad was to be punished for his acts nad then he’d be too afraid to ever use CW again. the notion that the threat was about creating leverage to get Assad to agree to give up his CWs became common wisdom the second that unexpected deal looked like there could happen. before, it was all punishment. after, it was all coercion. but now, all y’all are taking credit for having supported this wonderful coercive drum beat, apparently hoping nobody remembers you were actually pushing for a punitive attack. yes, the threat got the deal. but nobody here was arguing for a threat, y’all were arguing for explosions and death.

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