Unnamed GOPers are comparing the shutdown to Gettysburg.
“I would liken this a little bit to Gettysburg, where a Confederate unit went looking for shoes and stumbled into Union cavalry, and all of a sudden found itself embroiled in battle on a battlefield it didn’t intend to be on, and everybody just kept feeding troops into it,” the congressman said. “That’s basically what’s happening now in a political sense. This isn’t exactly the fight I think Republicans wanted to have, certainly that the leadership wanted to have, but it’s the fight that’s here.”
And some are claiming that more than half of the Republicans in the House would vote for a clean CR.
But of course, other than King and Dent, none of them will put their name behind any of these statements, let along put their vote where their mouth is. I’m not sure what the strategy is here; bad-mouthing your caucus and leadership while following them blindly doesn’t seem like any method at all, sir.
If a “moderate Republican” whines anonymously, does it make a sound?
In the meantime, let’s raise some more money for the DCCC, DSCC, and DNC. The best way to stop the madness is to make gains in the 2014 elections.
Ben Cisco
I, like you, call bullshit.
This is EXACTLY the fight they wanted to have, and have been itching for since November 2008.
Those that claim not to be onboard, at a minimum, let those who did run the show from them until now.
They can kiss every square inch of my ass.
Gian
Ted Cruz is funded by the guy who runs the company which birthed the verified but limited tag. Eric Cantor likes to short t bills… I sometimes wonder if they just are trying to maximize their personal profit… well for them and their big donors
Comrade Dread
It’s the sycophantic weasel strategy:
1. Realize that your party is doing something insane.
2. But your base wants them to do something insane
3. But the vast majority think you’re doing something insane and would like you stop and are less inclined to vote for madmen in the future.
Therefore, do something insane, but claim anonymously that you don’t really want to do something insane and it’s all John Boehner and Ted Cruz’ fault. Please vote for me. I’m really sane, even as I vote for insanity.
Citizen_X
Gettysburg, huh? And how did that turn out for the traitorous racists last time?
Punchy
Where does Sullivan shop for shoes?
Suffern ACE
If they didn’t want the battle, what were they doing wandering around Pennsylvania?
flukebucket
♫ He hides himself inside a dream…. ♫
maya
It’s all up to Dog’s Ouija board now.
? Martin
There’s no upside for any of the GOP – that’s what I’ve gotten from my correspondence (who stopped responding on day 4 btw). None of them come out ahead. They’re all participants in a political game inspired by Saw, with the Tea Party playing the role of Jigsaw.
The House GOP members are all furiously figuring out if they really need to hack off their leg (concede defeat and vote with the Dems) before they get shot (cause permanent harm to the nation).
uila
They are trying to force Obama into violating the debt ceiling, so that they will have cause to initiate impeachment proceedings. You know, because it worked so well the last time. It’s clown shoes from here on out.
Citizen_X
@Ben Cisco: Not to mention that they’ve been PLANNING this ALL YEAR, because their feelings got hurt in the last election.
It’s an attempt at a bloodless coup d’état, nothing less.
MattF
As I recall, there was this army of Confederate soldiers led by Robert E. Lee, in Pennsylvania, north of the Mason-Dixon line. And… they were looking for shoes? And they didn’t expect to encounter opposition? Maybe it’s a better analogy than Congressman Nameless realizes.
Suffern ACE
@Comrade Dread: I think it’s there to just give us some hope that there are sane republicans who’ll step forward and get credit for raising the debt limit.
Kind of like Peter King and Chris Christie get all the credit for Sandy Relief so that it looks like a moderate republican idea. But these aren’t moderate republicans.
There aren’t any in office except in our imagination, in which the Chamber of Commerce, enlightened bankers and guys who sometimes don’t return checks from Log Cabin Republicans are hailed as our saviors. Guess what? If I don’t believe in the devil, why would I believe in moderate republicans at the moment?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Citizen_X: seems more like Pickett’s charge – it’s a stupid idea that everyone can see, but they’ve got to make the gesture because shut up, that’s why. Meanwhile the rank and file are just waiting for them to reach Emmitsburg Road to go and hide.
Gian
@Citizen_X:
I know… with all the battles in recorded time…
I’d be more inclined to compare them to say the allies at the Anzio beach… “the world’s largest self contained POW camp” or something like that…
shelly
Well, Ted Cruz is more than welcome to lead Pickett’s Charge.
scav
@Ben Cisco: It’s the battle they wanted to win. They didn’t want the fight, they’re not much liking their leaders, nor many of their comrades in arms nor the optics (if they can shake the blood lust from their eyes long enough and peep outside the bubble to even notice the last). Weasels will weasel. But for once, I’m not in favor of leaving enough for a viable breeding population. The inner Dalek has emerged — can kitchen plungers be appropriately rusty?
Southern Beale
Gettysburg,eh? Hmm …. well, here the mayor of Blount Co. TN is asking the Natl. Park Service to let his county take on the cost of reopening the Smokies because the shutdown has hurt local businesses. This is peak tourist season in the Smokies, after all. Leaf-peeping is kaput, so the tourists have stayed away.
Such a shame. I guess government does something after all.
Even more classic is, they don’t know HOW much it costs, they just know they can take on the burden, make that supreme sacrifice, “for the benefit.” Amazing what burdens we can bear “for the benefit,” yes?
RP
I love that song.
liberal
@Citizen_X:
Reminds me of the time a Canadian friend of mine came to visit me in the DC area. We went walking around the Capitol building, where states have statues commemorating great men. He commented, “Pretty amazing that there are statues for traitors here.”
raven
@flukebucket: Get my note on GTP?
raven
@Southern Beale: The parkway was open Friday.
Villago Delenda Est
The “moderates” are cowards, unwilling to state publically, with their names attached, that they’d vote for a clean CR if they were offered one.
They need to be put to death for that alone.
flukebucket
@raven: Oh Yeah. I saw it over there. I did hesitate before posting that because I did not want to be a black cloud over the win. You were right to call me on it. I think Dolly Llama posts over there from time to time too. It is funny where you will run into Balloon Juice community members in the ether.
Gene108
@Suffern ACE:
Read the quote. Gentleman Bobby Lee was just looking for shoes for his troops.
If Lincoln had met him on the battlefield and shod the Confederate troops the Civil War would have ended right then and there.
But Lincoln did not want to negotiate or make a good faith peace offering, like shoes.
aimai
@? Martin: One day entire political science and game theory ph.ds will be written about this–about how individual decisionmaking and group decisionmaking constrain each other. About how public posturing doesn’t reflect private issues. About how powerless the individual Republican congressperson experienced themselves as being. About how cowardly and unprincipled they all have been shown to be. It would be fascinating–it is fascinating–but it is also horrifying. Its a bit like watching Lord of the Flies enacted, but on the floor of the US House of Representatives.
I’m reminded of a parable that Paul Atreides tells at the start of Dune–about the drowned sailor who is found with claw marks on his shoulders from his sailor companions who tried to save themselves by climbing up on the shoulders of a drowning man. The puzzling thing, he says, is not that you see it on drowned sailors–but that you see the same phenomenon at a dinner party, or in a salon. Here we see it among our Representatives, as each tries to climb up, reach a little air, spout out some useless propaganda, and sinks in turn under the waves churned up by his fellow republicans.
flukebucket
@RP: One of my favorites too. And it should have been ♫ he hides his head inside a dream ♫ Didn’t mean to butcher it.
mdblanche
@Suffern ACE: @MattF: Jeb Stuart and his cavalry had been out of communication with Lee for several days leading up to Gettysburg. Without his usual scouting reports, Lee knew the Army of the Potomac was out there but he didn’t know exactly where. Turns out they were a lot closer to Gettysburg than he thought, close enough that they secured the most strategic high ground first. It’s a shame what can happen to you if you’re so trapped in an information bubble that you can’t find out what’s going on in the world around you.
Rick Taylor
I don’t know what’s going on, but the notion the shutdown is purely the work of thirty or so Republican extremists in the house and the horrified sensible moderates are powerless to prevent it makes no sense.
JenJen
@MattF: I LOL’d when I read that too! Looking for shoes? Reaaaaaaly??
Nina
My sister and her husband have been on the waitlist to raft the Grand Canyon for something like 15 years. My parents flew out to their house for a week to watch the kid. My brother-in-law just posted a picture of the barred road leading to the put-in place for their rafts. If they don’t go today, they’ve lost their chance.
I guess they’ll have to waitlist for another 15 years.
johnny aquitard
These neo-confederate traitors want that moment, again. They’re still fighting Gettysburg, just as we suspected.
Botsplainer
@Southern Beale:
The good mayor needs to take that up with Teatard Phil Roe.
Belafon
Oh, and King? With the Democrats pushing to get a discharge petition out to force a clean resolution, King was asked if he would vote for the petition, and he said “No, because it won’t go anywhere” (my paraphrase of his statement). Of course it won’t because you won’t vote for it.
CaseyL
I kicked a few dollars to ActBlue; glad to be able to do so.
I’ve seen enough comments on the few conservative sites I can stomach to realize the TP and their fans have no idea, none whatsoever, how government finance works. They really think defaulting on the debt is a minor kerfuffle – or a proper emetic to make the government live within its means.
(That doesn’t mean they aren’t also sadistic sociopaths; they are. But the level of ignorance, and how breezily they express it, is kind of awe-inspiring. How is it possible none of them have stepped off a roof, convinced they can fly if they just believe hard enough?)
Suffern ACE
@Rick Taylor: Yep. The number of moderates is a lie.
Mnemosyne
@Citizen_X:
That’s what I was wondering — if they’re likening themselves to the Confederates, Gettysburg didn’t exactly turn out well for them. IIRC, many scholars consider the Union victory at Gettysburg the turning point of the war that led to the Union victory.
I mean, obviously I hope that’s what it turns out to be, but it doesn’t really say much for their confidence in their own strategy. We stumbled into a losing battle that will ultimately lead to us losing the war! We rock!
Face
@Southern Beale: Knowing what I know about TN, I’m guessing over 80% of those small business owners voted GOP in the last election, effectively voting in their own demise. Not that they’d recognize it, make the connection, and adjust accordingly. Just blame the Blah in Office for the lack of tourists and keep on brewing the moonshine.
The Other Bob
I am not sure what is more distrubing, the fact that this guy is comparing this to the civil war, or the fact that he compares the Repubs to the Confederates,
raven
@flukebucket: I thought it was fun!
scav
Interesting take on how changes to how Parties operate led to some of the dynamics playing out: What John Boehner’s ambition has to do with the shutdown. Argues that Pols have become essentially free agents with fewer choke chains. Couple that with more sophisticated boundary drawing is a recipe for, well, you’re soaking in it.
FRANCH
I am thrilled to hear this awesome explanation of how a Republican Party which is totally in the control of reasonable, sensible people – nothing to worry about here – is somehow being victimized by a small minority of their membership whose existence up until this point has been denied. It seems to me that this “moderate” anonymous commenter has things ass-backwards: you don’t get to blame a paralyzing crisis on people who have just recently emerged as a tiny minority group with no power.
I believe it was Gandhi who said, “First, you don’t exist. Then, you seize control and destroy everything. Finally, you are a small minority who doesn’t dictate the agenda.”
ETA: I’m really starting to get the feeling that the GOP is in panic mode and has no idea who is actually in charge.
bjacques
If this is Gettysburg, I hope next year we get Sherman’s march to the sea.
[edited for style, not necessarily for clarity]
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@JenJen: It’s like that old Robert Palmer song. “Ooooh. I’m lookin’ for shoes.”
;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
The Other Chuck
@FRANCH:
First they fight you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they ignore you.
Then you lose.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: Early July, 1863 was the turning point. The Union victory at Gettysburg gets most of the press, but the victory at about the same time at Vicksburg basically ensured that the Confederates could not win.
Redshirt
The most tragic aspect of this “Crisis” is it’s because of what, a 30 vote majority for the Repukes in the House? 30 people are the difference between a functioning, clean, good government, and unhinged chaos.
Every vote matters.
Villago Delenda Est
@Face:
This right here is a major issue. These people have very little understanding of cause and effect.
Napoleon
@Suffern ACE:
It is not that Lee didn’t expect to fight the Union in PA, it was that he was not expecting for it to happen at Gettysburg, which turned out to be highly unfavorable ground for them.
Corner Stone
Speaking of “moderate” Republicans, that sniveling assclown Olympia Snowe was just on MSNBC whinging about all the dreadful partisanship and ideology in Congress. And how the voters have to speak out before any change will happen.
My eyeballs were busy rolling into the back of my head but I do not believe she uttered the words “GOP” or “Republican” at any part of her diatribe.
Ash Can
I’d be able to believe Nameless here if what he was actually saying was that the Republicans didn’t expect this fight. There are certainly House GOP members who simply assumed that this would be a cinch — 1) close the government, 2) Dems immediately crumble and give them everything they want, 3) profit!! Because, hey, no way would it not work. Like I keep saying, these are the people who were convinced that Romney would win, that all the polls were wrong or biased or made-up or whatever, and were genuinely surprised on Election Night when it didn’t happen. They’re not on very close terms with reality. However, to maintain that the GOP never went looking for a fight in the first place, or did any planning for it, is laughable. With numerous GOP members and leaders proudly crowing for months, if not years, that this was their goal, not even the lazy and ill-informed corporate media are letting this one go (entirely) unchallenged at this point.
Villago Delenda Est
@bjacques:
This time not with that namby-pamby humanitarian Sherman in charge.
Stick it to them so hard they never raise their heads again.
Napoleon
@Omnes Omnibus:
Plus the win in TN at the same time for the Union which gets overshadowed because of the other 2 big wins at the same time for the Union.
Emerald
@JenJen: Let’s not forget that while he was looking for shoes in Pennsylvania, the sainted Bobby Lee also was capturing and enslaving any free black folks he encountered along the way.
cckids
@Citizen_X: That was my first thought, too. Gettysburg, huh? The South’s most gotta-win-it battle, that they completely f*cked up, then kept making it worse (because they “couldn’t lose”), leading to way more death & destruction than was going to happen anyway.
Seems quite apt to me.
Villago Delenda Est
@Corner Stone:
The “partisanship” and “ideology” is exclusively on the other side of the aisle from Senator Snowe.
Apparently, she goes into a catatonic state every time Cruz or Paul open their pie-holes. That is a natural reaction to them, after all…
soonergrunt
Except for the fact that Gettysburg was the conjunction of five major roads and a couple of railroads, and had factories and grain markets and everything that the rebels were looking for and they didn’t stumble into anything. Robert E. Lee knew exactly where they were going, and had a plan to get there and what to do there. They went to Gettysburg because it was stratregic terrain upon which they thought they could get everything they needed in the near term. But with their cavalry out of contact, they didn’t know the size, disposition, or intent of the Union army. The facts that the Union army was smart enough to move south out of the town and occupy the high ground and Robert E. Lee made the mistake of believing his own press are the only reasons the battle took place there (the confederates should have raided for what they needed and retreated back the way they came until the could turn east and threaten Washington again.)
So yeah, it is like Gettysburg in that a bunch of people who were trying very hard to destroy the United States government chose the wrong field of battle and didn’t retreat when they should have and found themselves locked in an engagement without support on bad tactical ground against a superior force. And like that rebel army of long ago, they keep attacking for terrain that they have no hope of controlling except on the very short term. And lastly, it was the nadir of their power. The confederate army never won a strategic victory after that, and dwindled down to almost nothing by Appomattox. Just as the teabaggers are dwindling and about to become irrelevant.
Patricia Kayden
I’m sure we all know already that the shutdown has been in the works for months now.
addictinginfo.org/2013/10/07/house-gop-plot-obamacare-shutdown/
cckids
@shelly: In this analogy, Cruz is more akin to Jeb Stuart – out “joyriding” (according to Longstreet), not doing his job, cruising on his reputation & letting everyone down.
Woodrowfan
the Confederates also seized a couple hundred black people they found in Pennsylvania and took them back to the south to sell as slaves.
(I see Emerald said the same thing. Sorry. I didn;t mean to repeat)
RP
Maybe Obama should negotiate and give the GOP something fairly insignificant. But in exchange demand that they pass a law giving the POTUS unilateral power to raise the debt ceiling. Getting rid of this insane process might be worth the concession.
peach flavored shampoo
TPM has up a blurb from Boehner’s spokesman, and good lord does it reek of flopsweat and desperation:
Shorter Steel: somebody please look at us! Somebody speak to me and make my boss look important! Please!
aangus
If this is Gettysburg then I can hardly wait for Pickett’s charge.
*starts to pop corn*
Ash Can
@? Martin:
I’m surprised that harming the nation is even entering into their thought process at all.
And thanks again for carrying on that correspondence and reporting back to us on it. That was a real eye-opener. Not shocking, granted, but it was valuable nonetheless to have many of our suspicions regarding the GOP’s fecklessness and lack of effective planning confirmed.
LanceThruster
What will be the modern day equivalent of converting Robert E. Lee’s property into Arlington National Cemetery?
virginia
Businesses around Gettysburg itself are suffering and losing money because that battlefield’s National Park is closed. Big year for them — 150th anniversary, etc.
And, really, these putsch creators and enablers do themselves NO favors by looking to attach themselves, in the most maudlin and adolescent way, to Great Moments in American History. Civil War, Gettysburg, shoes, whatever, man — Get over yourselves!
This debacle will go down as a national disgrace, brought on by careening ambition, greed, and cynical water-carrying for delusional sociopaths — Koch Bros = Tony Soprano’s “Captain of Industry” reveries. I’d like to see the lot of them placed under arrest.
I’d love to be able to contribute some cash but cannot — We are among the furloughed. On top of the financial anxiety and hardship one has to endure the comments made by these no-neck monsters who think it’s cute and funny to malign public service. We are expendable? At this point, I want to see Boehner on the Floor of the House sobbing into his rocks glass.
celticdragonchick
Our friends…and not so friendly associates…overseas are watching this in wonder and terror.
This next one draws some blood…
Moving on…
We are the laughingstock of the planet right now…but nobody is laughing.
Chris
Or the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. Everyone was spoiling for a fight, he was there to provide the convenient excuse.
Origuy
One could also mention Gallipoli, where the British and ANZAC troops were sent against Turkish forces that were thought to be weak and poorly-led. Hey, maybe Obama really is a Muslim!
I heard on the radio that Lockheed is furloughing 3,000 people today, with more to come as their government contracts stop getting funded. I wonder how many of those are glibertarian engineers?
Villago Delenda Est
When you realize that Ed “if you’re indicted, you must be guilty!” Meese is the brain behind all this bullshit, you begin to understand just how fucked up these assholes are.
piratedan
@LanceThruster: I would be converting Louie Gohmert’s ancestral house into mental health clinic
Napoleon
@liberal:
You may want to mention to your Canadian friend that the British has a monument to Benedict Arnold in London.
Villago Delenda Est
@Origuy:
“They’re just wogs. How much of a fight can they put up?”
Chris
@The Other Bob:
That’s not disturbing. It’s a goddamn relief to see them finally admit it after years on end of “Lincoln was a Republican doncha know.”
beltane
@The Other Bob: It is refreshing that they are comparing themselves to the Confederates. This is the first honest thing that’s come out of the mouth of a Republican in a very long time.
? Martin
@aimai: The really terrifying part of this is that we’re dependent on political self-control keeping us from going over the edge. There’s no legal construct – nor any provision for one to prevent this from recurring. There’s no way to force Boehner to bring the Senate bill to a vote. I suppose Nancy could do a nuclear option and demand the House rules be deemed unconstitutional – at least the details on the discharge petition that delay that outcome. But this could equally exist in the Senate or with the Executive issuing a pocket veto. There’s no recall option, no way for the President and SCOTUS to compel action (two branches balancing the third). Our checks and balances have failed here.
So we’re dependent on the consequences of this particular outburst being bad enough that nobody tries it ever again. The GOP keep edging up to this line, and keep avoiding consequence for it, which only empowers them to try it again. If the consequences here are sufficiently mild, this will become the new norm for both parties. The Dems will be forced to employ it because it’ll be the only way to get legislative action. Parties will be creating crises simply for the sake of passing routine legislation, and each time we do this, we do a little bit more permanent damage to the nation. We won’t survive it.
danielx
How does that saying go? Something like this….
If your plan depends on the help of moderate Republicans, come up with another plan.
Villago Delenda Est
@Napoleon:
I think the Canadian friend was looking at the various monuments of the states of the old Confederacy.
One of the provisions of the Union’s victory in the second civil war should be the erasure of the effigies on Stone Mountain, GA.
Amir Khalid
Let’s see if I have this right: these Republicans are likening themselves to Confederate forces now?
Southern Beale
Darrell Issa shocked that his vote to shut down the govt also shut down his Fast & Furious lawsuit.
D’oh! Apparently Issa doesn’t want to “slim down.”
Napoleon
@Villago Delenda Est:
Ah, I see – I miss understood.
Hill Dweller
@RP:
PO can’t give them anything. He has to break their habit of using shutdown/default to extort policy concessions unavailable using the normal legislative process. Republicans want to nullify elections and undermine our constitutional form of government.
Furthermore, Dems agreeing to a CR that maintains current funding levels is already a HUGE concession.
celticdragonchick
@Villago Delenda Est:
Salt the fucking earth and then nuke it from orbit.
It’s the only way to be sure.
Corner Stone
@Origuy:
And I’d contribute money to a polling group that asked all 3,000 of them questions to determine what the cause is behind their furlough.
Chris
@celticdragonchick:
I’ve been wondering ever since 2010 if the logical consequence of electing people to the government who don’t believe in government would play its way all the way out to the end, with the government becoming so unstable that the rest of the world came to the conclusion that they couldn’t deal with us as a stable international actor anymore (whether in terms of trade, security issues, or whatnot).
I mean, a lot of people already thought we went mad during the Iraq war, but it could still be chalked up to 9/11 trauma – and it didn’t have nearly the direct consequence in Europe or any other major power that an American economic meltdown would. Default, though… yeah…
catclub
@MattF: “they were looking for shoes?”
This time it is clown shoes.
Another Botsplainer
@celticdragonchick: For the Teabagging traitors this is a feature not a bug.
peach flavored shampoo
They do? Limey basterds. Never heard this before.
Cacti
And Gettysburg ended up striking two decisive blows against the Confederacy.
1. Lee wouldn’t have the manpower to ever invade the North again.
2. Lee failed to reinforce Vicksburg, banking his entire strategy on the Pennsylvania campaign. Vicksburg falls to Grant, and the Union has total control of the Mississippi River.
While good at field tactics, marse Bobby was a poor strategist. Much like the current baggers.
catclub
@Corner Stone: Only to have 810 of them answer “Pod people.”
? Martin
@scav: Another unintended consequence is that the elimination of earmarks means that leaders have no carrot or stick to use in whipping votes. Granted, that was little more than rank bribery, but what incentives do leaders have to offer now?
Corner Stone
@Hill Dweller:
IMO, this is an important point that’s not being widely discussed. Why did the D’s agree to that number in the first place? I haven’t seen any rationale behind it except for something vague like, “Ok, ok. We’ll agree to your number even though we don’t like it.”
In exchange for what?
celticdragonchick
@Chris:
I think we are reaching that point. When we are being seriously compared to Italy…what the hell can you say? The US IS TEH BESTEST EVUH foam finger triumphalism rings very, very hollow these days.
Corner Stone
@catclub: And another 2,000 pull a Captain Kirk, lift their voices to the Heavens, and vengefully scream:
“OBAAAAAAAMMMMMAAAAAAAA!!”
xenos
@Suffern ACE:
Among other things, picking up free African American families and selling them into slavery. Fuck them, fuck their memory, fuck anyone who glorifies them.
Chris
@Cacti:
I’m no tactician or strategist, but I’ve always questioned why the man who ordered Pickett’s Charge is considered a good general even just at field tactics. The reason it’s especially egregious for Lee to have ordered it is that he’d just spent two years on the defensive, had crushed Union troops in exactly the same way at Fredericksburg that they were about to crush him at Gettysburg, and therefore, should definitely have known better. It’s one thing to make the same mistake a few times, but to make the same mistake that your enemy just made and that you used successfully against him?
beltane
@Amir Khalid: Fox News and Professor Beck must have brainwashed them into thinking the South won the Civil War and that Grant is the one who surrendered to Lee. Either that or they are begging Obama to sacrifice them and the conservative movement on the altar of history. At this point, I would only be slightly surprised if the teabagger caucus got together in a room with their families and ingested cyanide pills.
Napoleon
@peach flavored shampoo:
A Google search says it is a plaque in honor of him:
londonremembers.com/memorials/benedict-arnold
Villago Delenda Est
@peach flavored shampoo:
The British perception of the American Revolutionary War is that it was a type of civil war, that the Crown lost. So, naturally, Benedict Arnold is considered to be a patriot…from the British perspective.
I don’t begrudge them that, but they could have avoided the entire mess if they’d have granted the colonies seats in parliament and reconsidered the Proclamation of 1763…made some major modifications to it, allowing British settlement over the Appalachians to some degree. Might have worked out better for the Native Americans that way.
Roxy
@LanceThruster:
I love the story behind the conversion of Lee’s property to Arlington Cemetery.
Cassidy
@Chris: IIRC, Lee was under significant political pressure to attack the North.
Mnemosyne
@Napoleon:
To be fair, Arnold was a traitor to the United States, not the British. As far as the British were concerned, he was a hero who helped them win that battle.
Since Canada is still part of the Commonwealth, I can see that Arnold would be a hero to them. If they had a statue to George Washington in Canada, that would be kind of weird.
ETA: IOW, Arnold was not a traitor to Canada/Great Britain, unlike the Confederates who are lionized inside the United States.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@soonergrunt: The Confederates didn’t really have the option to seize what they wanted, get out of town and go back south to find a way to Washington. Aside from the fact that Meade had interior lines and could continue to keep his army between Lee and Gettysburg, once the armies had made contact Lee’s only two options were to fight where they were and win a major victory or retreat all the way back to Virginia. His continued presence in Pennsylvania depended upon the Army of Northern Virginia being able to forage for food; he had no line of supply. But if Lee’s forces had to concentrate, which they did as the first day’s action was being fought fought, they couldn’t forage on a wide enough basis to continue to feed themselves. So, unless he could win a victory so great that it eliminated the Army of the Potomac as a threat to the point that the Confederates could disperse again, strategic retreat was his only option.
Which goes to how weak Lee was as a strategist. For all his operational and tactical acumen he was never able to inflict a defeat of that magnitude on the Army of the Potomac, even when McClellan and Burnside were running it. And so there was never any prospect for his raid into Pennsylvania to end in anything but a humiliating strategic setback. It had no upside.
Villago Delenda Est
@Corner Stone:
Boner and Reid had a deal. The Dem compromise was funding at current (sequester) levels, which they didn’t want to do, but were willing to go along with in order to keep the Government open.
Boner could not deliver on the deal…he has no control over his caucus.
He’s a bad negotiating partner who cannot deliver on his promises. That’s why were at this position now. The Dems, justifiably, have said that we HAD a deal, one that we didn’t really like but were willing to live with, and YOU couldn’t deliver on it. Fuck you. No more negotiations with a toothless, powerless drunken twit.
Linda Featheringill
@Amir Khalid:
I think it was a moment of insight on the part of the guy who said it. He knows that the Confederates lost, he knows that Gettysburg was terrible and the Confederates lost, and he knows that they blindly stumbled into the battle and then the Confederates lost.
I think he’s saying that the Republicans will lose this battle, too.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cacti: I don’t know that Lee had the manpower to reinforce Vicksburg. As I understand it, the Pennsylvania campaign needed to force a political settlement before Vicksburg fell if the South was going to succeed. Lee needed to break the North’s willingness to fight because the South simply could not win a drawn out war. Lee was unsuccessful and, once Vicksburg fell, the end result was inevitable. If Lee had sent more people to Vicksburg, the Army of NoVa would have had a smaller chance of success Vicksburg might have held out longer but the kind of victories Lee needed to get a political settlement wouldn’t have been there.
Mary G
I called Darrell Issa’s Washington D.C. office today. For once the voicemail box was not full and I got a human being. I gave her my views politely and concisely and told her I wanted to leave my address. I spoke it slowly and she said, OK, well, thank you, Ms. G, have a good day, and I said
Can you read that address back to me?
She said:
Uh…can you give it to me again?
/facepalm
I really am considering picketing his local office on my scooter.
PurpleGirl
@Mnemosyne: Another example of where they disregard historical fact, preferring delusion and fantasy.
beltane
@celticdragonchick: The difference with Italy, is that while the Italian government suffers regular shocks, spasms, ans scandals, the day to day functioning of the bureaucracy continues as though nothing is happening. There is a lot of drama but very little actual turmoil. It is different with the United States as we are dealing with an opposition party that actively hates the government and Constitution of the United States and which was elected for the express purpose of destroying this country and inflicting harm on its citizens.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cassidy:
Yup, that was a huge part of the problem for Lee. The Confederacy was, diplomatically, in desperate need of a decisive victory in order to establish their legitimacy to the Brits and the French.
It was a roll of the dice for them, and unfortunately for the Rebels, the dice were preloaded against them. All they had in the first place, as Rhett Butler so aptly put it, was cotton, slaves, and arrogance.
celticdragonchick
@peach flavored shampoo:
A couple of things…
1. Benedict Arnold was a highly competent and even borderline brilliant field officer. He saved Gate’s ass at Saratoga among other things, and the persistent refusal of Congress to promote him (junior officers with less ability were promoted over him) guaranteed that he would be a candidate for British subversion.
2. The British tried this sort of thing an awful lot. The moment any US officer showed initiative and drive, the British tried to recruit that officer with a promise of a nice command in Jamaica or some such, plus a lovely estate in the newly submissive colonies after the war ended. This was attempted with Colonel Daniel Gates when he was forced to surrender at Quebec(his reply was reported to be nearly unprintable due to the profanity), as well as Colonel Moultrie who routed the British in the first attempted invasion of Charleston harbor at Sullivan’s Island (He responded that they could hide him from his other countrymen but where could he hide from his own conscience?).
Ben Cisco
@Citizen_X: It will wind up being neither.
They will soon be made to understand the difference between patriotism and sedition; namely, that while they think they’ve been portraying the former, they’ve actually engaged in the latter.
FDRLincoln
I posted this in an open thread last night but I don’t know how many of you saw it. I won’t repost it again, but I thought it was still relevant.
So I was walking my dog last night, and thinking about the old Original Series Star Trek episode “Balance of Terror,” where the Enterprise has to stop a cloaked Romulan ship from destroying outposts along the Neutral Zone. I suddenly had an image of Nancy Pelosi saying “These are Republicans! You run away from them and you guarantee war!” which is a paraphrase from a briefing room scene where Kirk and the Enterprise staff are trying to decide on their tactics.
So, I came home from my walk and wrote up this adaptation of the briefing room scene. Anyone who is an original series Trek fan and a political liberal might like it. Enjoy.
Obama is Kirk, Harry Reid is Spock, Chuck Hagel is McCoy, Durbin is Sulu, Axelrod is Scott, Nancy Pelosi is Lt. Stiles, and Carney is Uhura.
OBAMA: Yes, well gentlemen, the question still remains. Can we engage them with a reasonable possibility of victory?
AXELROD: No question. Their power is simple propaganda.
OBAMA: Meaning we can out-fact them?
PELOSI: To be used in chasing them or retreating, sir?
OBAMA: Go ahead, Ms. Pelosi. I called this session for opinions.
PELOSI: We have to attack immediately.
OBAMA: Explain.
PELOSI: They’re still on our side of the Continuing Resolution. There would be no doubt they broke the agreement with the Senate.
DURBIN: Attack, without our own propaganda network? How do we explain the facts?
PELOSI: Spread with social media. Not as rapid as Fox News, but if we blanket them. . .
DURBIN: And hope for a lucky meme before they zero in on us?
PELOSI: And if we don’t? Once back, they’ll report that we saw their propaganda and ran.
DURBIN: And if they could report they destroyed us?
PELOSI: These are Republicans! You run away from them and you guarantee war! They’ll be back. Not just one blackmail attempt on the debt limit, but with everything they’ve got. You know that, Mister Majority Leader. You’ve the expert on these people. But you’ve always left out that one point. Why? I’m very interested in why.
OBAMA: Sit down, Mister.
REID: I agree. Attack.
OBAMA: Are you suggesting we fight to prevent a fight?
HAGEL: Based on what? Memories of a Civil War over a century ago? On theories about a people who will never, ever vote for Democrats?
PELOSI: We know what they vote like.
REID: Yes, indeed we do, Madam Speaker. And if the Tea Party is an offshoot of Confederate blood, and I think this likely, then attack becomes even more imperative.
HAGEL: War is never imperative, Senator Reid.
REID: It is for them, Secretary Hagel. The Confederacy, like all slave-holding aristocracies, had its aggressive colonizing period. Savage, even by European standards. And if Republicans have retain this martial philosophy, then weakness is something we dare not show.
HAGEL: Do you want another Civil War on your conscience?
OBAMA: Captain to Bridge.
CARNEY: This is Carney, Captain.
OBAMA: What’s our position?
CARNEY: Course unchanged, sir. Estimating debt limit boundary in ten days.
OBAMA: Are you continuing to consult political scientists?
CARNEY: Affirmative, Captain.
OBAMA: And at this distance?
CARNEY: Approximately three weeks before receiving a reply to our first message.
OBAMA: Thank you, Lieutenant. Check our course ahead, Senator Reid.
REID: A discharge petition, dead ahead, and the Republicans changing course toward it.
OBAMA: A clean continuing resolution from the House that was tabled in the spring. Composition?
REID: Quite ordinary. It funds the government at sequester levels, but says nothing about Obamacare.
OBAMA: And when the Tea Party tries to stop it?
REID: They will leave a visible trail that even the mainstream media can’t ignore.
OBAMA: Our chance, gentlemen. Prepare to attack. All hands, battle stations. I hope we won’t need your services, Chuck.
HAGEL: Amen to that. We’re taking a big gamble, Barack.
Cris (without an H)
Obama boils it down (via kos):
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Chris:
Because that was the point where he realized that he’d backed himself into a corner. Pickett’s Charge was a low percentage gamble but, in poker terms, Lee was already pot committed. As a strategic outcome, retreating from Gettysburg after the Charge wasn’t a much worse defeat than retreating from Gettysburg without launching it.
Lee’s errors came much earlier than that.
Cassidy
@Villago Delenda Est: Fortunately, it sped up the inevitable. Lee’s war of attrition could have lasted a long time.
Napoleon
@celticdragonchick:
I had long understood him to be the best general the Colonialist had.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Chris:
Because that was the point where he realized that he’d backed himself into a corner. Pickett’s Charge was a low percentage gamble but, in card terms, Lee was already pot committed. As a strategic outcome, retreating from Gettysburg after the Charge wasn’t a much worse defeat than retreating from Gettysburg without launching it.
Lee’s errors came much earlier than that.
celticdragonchick
@Villago Delenda Est:
That was never gonna happen. The British could make forward looking projections as well as anyone else…and the trends were obvious that North America would soon eclipse the mother country in population and economic output if settlement and immigration trends continued. The only was that the colonies could be kept in the fold was put tight restraints on settlement and productivity.
That didn’t turn out so well.
Ben Cisco
@scav: Unknown, but I’m onboard with taking the hard line. If you let up on this lot, even in the slightest, we’ll simply have to go through it again.
CaseyL
@Hill Dweller:
Yes, and Obama has made that clear in a statement today:
He’s saying the CR is already a compromise on the Democrats’ part, because it funds the government only at Sequester levels.
I wonder if that means, if the GOP decides to jump off the cliff and Obama has to pull a rabbit out of a hat to keep the country from defaulting, he can somehow make that a really big rabbit by also restoring pre-Sequester funding levels.
Wouldn’t that be something.
(HT to TPM)
El Caganer
@beltane: 02dddd4.netsolhost.com/poetry/Grant.shtml
shortstop
@soonergrunt:
The hagh watah mahk, you mean.
celticdragonchick
@Napoleon:
Greene and Morgan (who was promoted to General after he was paroled back to the American forces) were also very good.
Arnold was probably the only reason we really held out at Saratoga. “Gentlemen Johnny” Burgoyne was a far more dangerous and capable officer then he has been credited for, and he would have eaten Gates alive 6 days out of 7, all other factors being equal.
shortstop
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): Right, and he didn’t have the option of waiting it out, either. I said basically this to you, Chris, in the last thread in which you raised this question, but it was a pretty dead thread by then.
Belafon
@CaseyL: No. If he wanted, he could try to get around the default by challenging the constitutionality of the debt ceiling, but he’s not going to (and I agree with him on this). He would have no constitutional authority at all to magically come up with a spending bill.
Citizen_X
Fuck, Republicans, why not go all the way? You think we’re a bunch of commies, right? So why not compare yourselves to the heroic German troops facing the surrounding Red horde at Stalingrad?
Omnes Omnibus
@Napoleon: I would argue that he was great in the way the Marechal Ney was great under Napoleon. A fantastic field commander as well as a courageous and inspiring leader, but not necessarily a great strategist.
Villago Delenda Est
@celticdragonchick:
It is of interest that Adam Smith predicted that, and thought it was a good thing, and if political control of the colonies could not be maintained, that all was not lost for Britain. He also understood that eventually the ties of language and culture would heal the wounds of the “civil war”. He predicted the Anglo-American alliance that persists to this day. He didn’t quite imagine that the Anglo part would be so seriously a junior partner, though.
beltane
@El Caganer: Very funny, especially in light of John Boehner’s chronic drunkenness.
Suffern ACE
@Corner Stone: Since the Republicans have completely shut out Democrats in the House from participating in budget issues, I’m guessing in exchange for at least for at least honoring some agreements – like funding farm subsidies and zeroing out food stamps in a spending bill that the Senate would never vote on.
Bokonon
I have a wingnut acquaintance who is plastering FaceBook with all sorts of awful stuff right now – about the problem being Obama’s “refusing to negotiate”, about the Democrats refusing to do their jobs and propose a budget, about Obama calling back union reps but leaving everyone else on furlough, about the deficit being “out of control” …
The level of misinformation is staggering. But it also says that the Republicans are desparately trying to find something, ANYTHING, that they can spin to their advantage (while simultaneously declaring the victory of their talking points, and asserting that their polll numbers are rising). Somehow, their actions and increasing shrillness undercuts that.
All they have is a media strategy. They have no plan besides that. They thought it was all they needed. And that’s pretty darn scary.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Omnes Omnibus:
Sure. They could have sent Longstreet’s corps west after Chancellorsville rather than after Gettysburg and that could have made Grant’s life pretty difficult. And that wouldn’t have made any meaningful difference in the Army of Northern Virginia’s capacity to inflict a major strategic defeat on the Army of the Potomac because Lee never had that capacity in the first place. Note that even a Confederate victory on the battlefield at Gettysburg wouldn’t have constituted such a defeat; there’s no plausible outcome that actually destroys the Army of the Potomac as an effective fighting force. So, no matter what had happened on the second day, Meade would still have been between Lee and Washington and Lee would still have had no line of supply and thus a tactical victory would have necessarily turned into a strategic retreat.
Lee’s inability to recognize that he didn’t have the forces to win a strategic victory is one of the huge knocks against his generalship. Grinding out the war long enough to get the Union to quit, a strategy that hinged on the 1864 elections far more than it did on the French or the British, was the only route to eventual Confederate victory.
Villago Delenda Est
@Citizen_X:
“Don’t talk about the war!”
? Martin
@Ben Cisco:
Worse, they will go there for increasingly trivial things because the consequences are insufficiently severe. If Obama’s goal here is to restore order, he needs to not yield – either nullifying the effort by defying congress, or sending us into default and then dealing with those consequences.
Cacti
@Chris:
Hubris got the best of him in that instance.
His worst tactical decision of the war also happened to be the most catastrophic to his cause. Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.
celticdragonchick
@Villago Delenda Est:
Interesting. I did not know that.
PurpleGirl
@Napoleon: But Benedict Arnold was not a traitor to the British. He became one to the colonial forces.
Corner Stone
@Villago Delenda Est:
Hey! I still have all my teeth!
Oh…you meant…nevermind.
I understand that a deal was made, and frankly it could give the D’s current stance weight if they were able to communicate it, but I’m not sure about the actual terms. What was compromised? It seems like straightforward thuggery to me and the D’s got nothing out of agreeing to that number. Even if for some reason the shutdown had been averted the outcome would have been a whole lot of people still getting hurt or continuing their damage. And I don’t see any case being made why agreeing to that lower number was the actual right decision.
I see it being said that they *did* agree to that number, but no one is saying what they got back for it.
I may be belaboring my point here but it seems like the D’s just tossed it off on the chance that Boehner could actually deliver. And now we’re stuck with that damn number when the govt eventually reopens. And for nothing.
Ben Cisco
@Corner Stone: Heh.
? Martin
[facepalm]
Bokonon
You know – when I hear the wingnuts screeching about the President’ “failure to negotiate” and being responsible for the impasse and shutdown, I just want to say –
“So … that means that the Wizard of Oz was all about Dorothy’s unwillingness to sit down, be reasonable, and negotiate the appropriate time and means of her death with the Wicked Witch of the West?”
Villago Delenda Est
@FDRLincoln:
That is a pretty good writeup, and it describes the situation well.
Attack.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): Good point about Longstreet.
@Corner Stone: Arguably, the reason for staying with the sequester numbers could be that the Dems were seeking to show that they were sticking to the previous deal and the the GOP was not. If so, the message got lost in the wind.
beltane
@? Martin: This will be very impressive to the second-infancy crowd who make up Fox’s target audience.
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
I’d go for making it illegal to name anything after any member of the Confederate government or any officer in the Confederate army. Nothing named after Lee, Davis, Forrest, or any of those traitors.
J.D. Rhoades
@JenJen:
The shoes were a short term goal. The long term goal was attacking Washington from the north, freaking people in the North out badly enough that they’d demand a peace treaty, and ending the war. They certainly didn’t invade the USA for shoes, but there was reportedly a shoe factory nearby, and they wanted to loot, er, commandeer it.
chauncey1186
Doug,
Sorry, but I swore off sending ANY more money to the DNC, DSNC, or DCCC until they stop fielding Blue Dogs, and generally acting like boneheads. Now, if you want to put up a button for any of the fine Progressive groups, I’d hit that in a hot second!
Suffern ACE
@Bokonon: Dorothy was playing nice until the end when the witch decided rather than killing the four friends plus Toto swiftly, she would rather torture them to death one at a time in front of Dorothy.
The witch is actually a pretty good metaphor here. The question is, have we actually had enough watching the Republicans torture the scarecrow?
mdblanche
@RP: Here’s my idea for an insignificant concession: a coupon for a free meal at Bennigan’s (with purchase of a meal of equal or greater value of course) and free bubblegum for every Republican. The total estimated retail value of this package comes to $3,008 Canadian.
@celticdragonchick: Arnold’s contributions at Saratoga were so important that he is grudgingly honored with a monument there. Very grudgingly.
Corner Stone
Good God. Boehner just took to the House floor completely drunk. If he isn’t legally intoxicated right now I’ll eat my hat.
Villago Delenda Est
@Roger Moore:
Furthermore, display of the Confederate Battle Flag should be as illegal as the display of the Hackenkreuz is in Germany.
This bullshit about “heritage” is utterly offensive. It’s as if Germans were naming streets after members of the SS.
LanceThruster
@piratedan:
xD
Ben Cisco
@? Martin: Agreed. At this point I’m merely hoping it doesn’t come to bloodshed.
Poopyman
@? Martin: I can’t believe that’s not The Onion.
beltane
@Villago Delenda Est: The thing is, the Germans have plenty of things in their heritage to be proud of, and can draw on a wealth of cultural achievements that have nothing to do with the atrocities of WWII. What is there to Southern “heritage” other than nostalgia for the days when it was legal to own other humans?
CaseyL
Via FB, a link to a really, genuinely good post by a conservative (!) on why the President must prevail in this fight:
stonekettle.com/2013/10/deadlock.html?fb_action_ids=10200751432964265&fb_action_types=og.likes&…{%2210200751432964265%22%3A1422305727993249}&action_type_map={%2210200751432964265%22%3A%22og.likes%22}&action_ref_map=[]
Very strongly recommended reading. The guy understands what’s really at stake. I might have to add him to my very, very short “Conservatives I Can Stand to Read” list.
Chris
@FDRLincoln:
I LOVE that episode. Both TOS Romulan episodes, actually – sadly they go downhill afterwards. It was nice to have them as the “Honorable Adversary” folks, with the basic point that despite ideological differences between the two nations the people in the trenches weren’t actually very different.
And I also agree with the basic point, in re the teabaggers.
Similar quote from the Star Wars novelverse –
“If you run from [alien animal meaning wild dog], or [Republicans], they won’t respect you. They’ll chase you, drag you down, and kill you. Only if you stand your ground do you have a chance of survival. If we dig in our heels here and slap the [Republicans] across the face, it may do some harm to their morale. It may do some good for ours.”
shortstop
@Corner Stone: Is he out there by himself since the House is in recess? Or did he make a brief, staggering appearance and they shut it down?
LanceThruster
@Roxy:
It is one of those amazing bits of history that you are grateful to have come across.
Your mention of the history reminded me of something I learned from PBS’s American Experience program “Death and the Civil War.” It recounted how at much risk to themselves, black residents paid honor to the Union dead by their respectful handling of their remains. It makes me think of the simple humanity shown, and the bonds we share that act expressed.
from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampton_Park_(Charleston)
Higgs Boson's Mate
@? Martin:
They should call that room the belfry.
Chris
@shortstop:
Ah, thanks. And to everyone else who answered, too. Yeah, I remember raising this question in another Civil War thread, but I guess I left before your post, indeed.
Omnes Omnibus
@beltane: Ribs, Jazz. The Blues. Aretha. Otis. Etc. Of course, there is something about those things and those people….
Villago Delenda Est
@beltane:
Not my problem. While I had ancestors fighting on both sides, I also wasn’t in on the adoption of the Confederate Battle Flag as the symbol of segregation and resistance to the Civil Rights movement.
It is a heritage that they should be ashamed of. Germans figured this out…I guess the destruction of Atlanta and Richmond wasn’t enough to make an impression.
Villago Delenda Est
@beltane:
Not my problem. While I had ancestors fighting on both sides, I also wasn’t in on the adoption of the Confederate Battle Flag as the symbol of segregation and resistance to the Civil Rights movement.
It is a heritage that they should be ashamed of. Germans figured this out…I guess the destruction of Atlanta and Richmond wasn’t enough to make an impression.
Tumbrel For Hire
Today’s right is filled to the brim with survivalist yahoos and delusional end-timers. Of what interest to them is a functional central government? Answer honestly.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
MEEEEP!
Wrong color. Try again.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
Lee’s biggest flaw is that he never appreciated that strategic victory is more than just an accumulation of operational victories. Amateur military historians love Lee for the same reason they love the German generals of World War II. They were both good at the romantic bits of military science: grand tactics and operations. They also had the exact same flaws. They were bad at the boring stuff of intelligence gathering, logistics and strategic thinking.
That’s why Grant was a better general than Lee and Zhukov greater than any of the Germans except maybe von Manstein.
Botsplainer
@Villago Delenda Est:
Together with a dynamiting of every Confederate monument and the renaming of all schools, playgrounds, streets, bridges, earthenwork berms, city halls, police stations, firehouses and klavern lodges which have hithertofore been named after the traitors.
Mnemosyne
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
This “stratergy” is sounding strangely familiar. Just sayin’.
beltane
@Omnes Omnibus: Funny how the contributions of “those people” are thought of as American heritage and not Southern heritage. The contributions of “those people” also happen to be what has made American culture beloved worldwide. The world may hate us for our Freedumbs but they used to love us for our rock-and-roll.
Chris
@Bokonon:
Of course! In their experience, everything can be solved by a media strategy. Even if things go badly, you can go just plaster the public with stories saying that it’s going well, and they’ll believe you, so there are no consequences, so it doesn’t matter.
It’s been failing more and more badly lately (the public stopped believing in the Iraq War about two years in despite all the messaging, the “unskewed polls” didn’t put Romney over the top… etc). But apparently they still haven’t caught on.
Corner Stone
@shortstop: MSNBC only showed about 15 seconds of it but I believe the whole thing was very brief. There were a bunch of people in the shot so I’m guessing some type of business was underway.
Just angry and sloppy ranting at the president. If he wasn’t baked then the stress level he’s at has him careening physically side to side and is making him clip off words and mispronounce his sibilants.
Jay C
@soonergrunt:
Minor point, sg:
The Yankees didn’t move onto the high ground south of Gettysburg because they wanted to: they were forced out of the town by superior Confederate forces: Lee’s army displaying again its incredible marching and deployment capacities that the Union just couldn’t match.
But the follow-up wasn’t there: it’s no surprise that a large majority of “How Lee cold have won at Gettysburg” scenarios all feature some variant on “Ewell should have pressed the attack on the evening of July 1” But them’s the breaks….
Villago Delenda Est
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
I give von Mannstein the edge, if only because he was constantly hamstrung by the fucking paperhanger.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): There are different levels of generals. Was Ike a better general than Patton? Yes and no. Patton was probably better at commanding a division or corps in combat than Ike would have been, but he would have been a disaster as a theater commander.
Botsplainer
@Villago Delenda Est:
This time around, Sherman’s strategic heir should be given carte blanche in his destruction of Sweetwater, Plano, the northern suburbs and exurbs of Atlanta, the suburbs and exurbs of Charlotte, Hillsborough County outside Tampa, Ft Myers, The Villages, Ocala, the suburbs and exurbs of Orlando, the suburbs and exurbs of Nashville and the everything from Columbia to north in South Carolina,
Villago Delenda Est
@Chris:
Well, that entire “unskew the polls!” thing did serious damage to their media manipulation. That and the fact that they insist, INSIST that if only they message better, they can sell arsenic as sugar.
Mnemosyne
@LanceThruster:
For a war that supposedly wasn’t “about” slavery, former slaves certainly seemed to feel differently. It’s too bad that the North let them down and killed Reconstruction early.
Rob in CT
When Longstreet was finally sent West (to reinforce Bragg), he was ineffectual (at best). The Confederacy had huge problems, and one of the big ones was they simply didn’t have the manpower (and supplies) to defend everywhere at once. With the Union pressuring them in the East (VA), West (Vicksburg) and the Center (Chattanooga), they couldn’t come up with enough troops to properly confront all the threats. Given our knowledge of the outcome, it’s easy to argue they should have made an all-out effort at defending Vicksburg (or Tennesee!), leaving Lee with a smaller force and hoping his brilliance at strategic defense would be enough to stave off catastrophic defeat in the East. When the Union commanders in the East were terrible, this seems possible. More needed to be done beyond just moving a Corps around, though. Bragg had to be replaced, a a minimum.
Rob in CT
@Mnemosyne:
Congress really should’ve passed H.R. 29 in 1867. ;)
Villago Delenda Est
@Mnemosyne:
The “it wasn’t about slavery!” thing was pure post Appomattox revisionism. In 1861, it was ENTIRELY about slavery, and that’s the yahoos in the South saying so, too.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh, sure. I’m referring specifically to generals at the level of army or army group/front command. None of them, at least in WWII, were as good as William Slim, though.
Omnes Omnibus
@Rob in CT:
Still wouldn’t have worked. Lee needed something flashy to set up a political win.
Also, regarding Bragg, he was apparently hated by his troops during the Mexican War. He drove them extremely hard and expected perfection. One night, the story goes, someone rolled a cannon ball with a lit fuse into his tent. The fuse was too long so Bragg was able to snuff it out in time. He then woke up his entire battery and lectured them about incompetence before setting them to practicing fuse cutting.
Mnemosyne
@Villago Delenda Est:
Actually, it wasn’t post-Appomattox — it was the Dunning School that caused the 180, which was part of the wave of white supremacism that hit the US in the early 1900s. That was really when the KKK got powerful nationwide — until then, they were just a bunch of unorganized drunken jackasses running around in hoods.
LanceThruster
@Mnemosyne:
I remember seeing a historian explain that it was anger over New York exercising its states’ right not to return fugitive slaves that fostered the initial secession document which was subsequently copied by the other states joining in.
So much for the “States’ Rights” canard as well.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
You do realize, don’t you, that the Army of the Cumberland was in a position to provide aid to Grant’s Army of the Tennessee much more quickly and easily than Lee could send a corps west, no?
Face it: Short of a miracle, the Confederates were never going to win that war. Ever. Any choice of strategy that the Confederate generals faced was a bad choice.
Napoleon
@Jay C:
That sure isn’t what I have read. While Union forces were battling it out in town Howard took a position on Cemetery Hill. He was not retreating from anyone.
Chris
@Villago Delenda Est:
A history professor I had at AU put it to the class that our entire memory of the Civil War is backwards – it was the North that was fighting over states’ rights and the South that was fighting over slavery. After the war and over time the narratives got switched because Southerners found it embarrassing to think of their side as a bunch of racists and Northerners found it embarrassing to think of their side as a bunch of authoritarians.
(Although for my money, “preserving the Union” was a perfectly valid cause in and of itself, and fuck if some people find it “authoritarian.”)
Roger Moore
@beltane:
There’s plenty of Southern heritage to be proud of. The South has produced its fair share of great non-Confederate politicians (LBJ) and generals (George H. Thomas), plus plenty of people in arts and culture. They have the most recognizable regional cuisines in the USA, from soul food to barbeque to Cajun to Texas chili. There’s lots there to be proud of that they’re ignoring in the rush to defend the indefensible.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Omnes Omnibus:
During the antebellum period, Bragg at one point was serving as both the supply officer for, iirc, his regiment, and as company commander. Bragg- the company commander- sent in a request for supplies. Bragg- the supply officer- returned a lengthy, detailed letter explaining why he had to deny the request.
Villago Delenda Est
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
/facepalm
Rob in CT
@Omnes Omnibus:
I tend to agree it was still unlikely to work, it’s just we know the way they played it failed. They were probably going to lose no matter what strategy they pursued, though some kind of non-defeat via Democrats winning big in the ’64 elections seems possible. They didn’t need to actually defeat the North, after all.
In reality, though they made a bunch of mistakes, the Confederacy probably did about as well as they could. They just picked a fight they were unlikely to win, in part because they had massively inflated opinions of themselves.
Which returns us to the topic at hand…
Villago Delenda Est
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
The logistical situation alone meant that a prolonged war would result in Union victory.
Rob in CT
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
I thought that was apocryphal… a tale told by those who knew and disliked Bragg.
Omnes Omnibus
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Proper paperwork is important. But also, it is pretty clear that Bragg was a perfectionist and martinet.
catclub
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): “As a strategic outcome, retreating from Gettysburg after the Charge wasn’t a much worse defeat”
What about continuing the maneuver toward WashingtonDC? The Union seemed to have a fabulous position to defend at Gettysburg.
shortstop
@Napoleon: They were battling it out in town in the first place because the Confederates had pushed them back from Barlow’s Knoll and McPherson Ridge. Meade had wanted the confrontation to stay where he’d put it — north and west of town. When it didn’t, the strategy of putting the lines on high ground from Cemetery and Culp’s Hills all the way down to the Round Tops put Union forces back in superior position.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yup.
Chris
@Rob in CT:
The North invested in factories, the South invested in a Warrior-Gentleman Class. I’m sure for a while they thought it was terribly clever of them.
Seanly
Individual battles aside, I think the Confederacy was doomed from the start:
1) population differences – the North had about 22 million and the South about 9 million (including 4 million slaves)
2) the North had the bulk of the industrial capacity
Wasn’t Lee’s idea for the Pennsylvania campaign to capture Harrisburg? That area was a major hub for rail traffic and to this day there is a large military supply depot in the area as well as substantial farmlands east of the Susquehanna. In addition, Lee thought a successful foray into the North would make the Union sue for peace (and/or get Europeans directly involved in the conflict), but that seems like a lot of wishful thinking.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Rob in CT:
Could be, but it’s probably the best story one could tell about Bragg which described his character, but in which no other party threatened to kill the man.
shortstop
@Chris: And look at us now. Blue states invest in technology and industry; red states invest in a loudmouthed ignoramus class…still thinking it’s clever of them. ;)
polyorchnid octopunch
@uila: “It’s clown shoes
from here on outall the way down” FTFY.Roger Moore
@Seanly:
They were more or less stuck on the defensive, but they had borders that were simply too long to be defended; this was a point that Grant hammered home in his memoirs. They depended critically on trade with Europe, but lacked a navy capable of keeping their ports open. Their economy depended on slave labor, but the Union could easily free the slaves in any area they captured, even temporarily.
tybee
@CaseyL:
go look up his “Fuck the Troops” column.
tybee
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
HA!
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@catclub: Trying to continue to maneuver towards Washington was not an option for Lee after, roughly, the midafternoon of the first day of the Battle of Gettysburg. That’s the point at which the two armies had all started to converge on the town. Once that happened, Lee’s only choices were decisive battle right there or retreat to Virginia. He had no supply lines; his army had to live off of the land. For an army that size the only way to do that was to remain dispersed; once it was concentrated the foraging parties couldn’t cover enough territory to secure enough food. (If you want to see an army that was prepared to do without supply lines, read about the logistical preparations for Sherman’s March to the Sea, and even then they’d have been in huge trouble of Hood had turned to follow them rather than heading to Tennessee.)
And once the Army of Northern Virginia was in contact with a concentrated Army of the Potomac it was no longer possible to spread back out in order to forage; that would just have allowed Meade (who did have a solid line of supply) to steamroll it piecemeal. To have tried to continue to maneuver towards Washington would have meant that the Army of Northern Virginia would start to starve.
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
I realize the point of your story is probably supposed to be that Bragg was an asshole, but you have to admit, that was pretty badass of him. Can’t you even frag me without screwing it up?
BruceJ
@Citizen_X: Well, then the imperative would be to punch their noses hard enough that it’s not exactly bloodless.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
That would have left Rosecrans without sufficient forces for the campaign in Middle Tennessee. So, sure, but it would still have had more value for the Confederacy than leaving Lee enough forces to think that invading Pennsylvania was a good idea. And, the way that the Vicksburg campaign played out it’s possible that the arrival of Longstreet, even if balanced by reinforcements from Rosecrans, might have forced Grant to lift the siege.
Mike in NC
They were on a humanitarian mission at the behest of Jefferson Davis: helping farmers harvest their crops, bringing meals to widows and orphans, providing medical assistance to the needy. If only those Damn Yankees hadn’t interfered. Yeah, that’s the ticket!
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: The point is both.
fuckwit
Well, duh. Remember, the Rethugs are authoritarians. The moderates are waiting– BEGGING actually– for PERMISSION from the leaders in their party to vote yes. That means Limbaugh, Hannity, Norquist, etc, have to be OK with it. Once they sign on, then those “moderates” can vote yes. That’s what they’re waiting for. And are terrified they might never get.
soonergrunt
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): Had the confederates disengaged from the union forces as the union withdrew to the south, first to Seminary Ridge and then to Cemetary Ridge, the confederates could have kept sacking the town and then withdrew back through Cashtown to Chambersburg while the union was reinforcing their own positions. Perhaps a small demonstration or feint at the northern end of the union lines to keep Mead’s attention. If they had moved with a purpose and executed ruthlessly, they might have been able to pull it off and escape intact, which would have been a hell of a lot better than what they actually did.
But another problem was their command and control sucked. The Army of Northern Virginia was a command of gentlemen–orders were phrased as “If Gen Ewell would attack the enemy to his front when he believes able to do so, I should be very pleased…respectfully…” as opposed to the union army’s way of doing things “do this thing no later than this time. Report when you begin, report again when you have completed, and report whenever you encounter anything not anticipated by your orders. Go. Now.”
But the confederates chose the ground on which to fight when they chose to stay in the area of Gettysburg and close on union positions.
soonergrunt
@shortstop: true. I sit corrected.
Omnes Omnibus
@soonergrunt:
If you replace the bolded portion with “at once,” it is a workable order. I always worked up from “Specialist, could you please do this thing?” through “Go do this” to “DO IT RIGHT FUCKING NOW!”
fuckwit
@Roger Moore: To me, the best of Southern Heritage comes from black folks. Blues. Jazz. Soul. R&B. Funk. I couldn’t even possibly list all the African American musicians who contributed hugely to music, the list would go on for days.
White folks in the South didn’t slouch on music either: bluegrass, country, folk, rock and roll, zydeco. Much respect for those.
Also, literature from the South has been a pretty rich contribution: Twain, Faulkener, Williams, etc.
I’m generally not a fan of Southern politicians, though obviously there have been good moments from LBJ, Carter, and the Clintons.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@soonergrunt: Oh, I agree that the Confederates could have withdrawn and escaped. What they couldn’t have done at that point was redisperse in order to continue living off the land. Once the two armies had come together, even without a major battle, Lee was screwed. His lack of any logistical support would have prevented continued attempts to maneuver around Meade and get to Washington. Once the battle had started, his two choices were to continue to fight it or to go home.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Okay, so move divisions from the Department of the Ohio. IX Corps was sent from the AotP to the Department of the Ohio in the winter, and then down to Vicksburg in June*. With Lee sitting there in Virginia less Longstreet’s corps, with Bragg backing up in the face of Rosecrans’ Tullahoma campaign, the Union had the size of force and the infrastructure to transfer men from east to west.
Lee was forced to choose between a bad option and a worse option, imo.
*I’ve mentioned it here before, but I’m proud to mention again that my g-g-g grandfather was a member of the 17th Michigan (the Stonewall Regiment of South Mountain fame) which was part of IX Corps. That corps was all over the place during the war. Gramps was there at the beginning and at the end, missing only Fredericksburg while recovering from a pretty serious wound suffered at Antietam.
fuckwit
@Omnes Omnibus: Indeed, the North had clinched the division with that victory.
soonergrunt
@Jay C: I would submit that the union cavalry division commanded by John Buford (and especially the delaying action fought by his subordinate, Col. William Gamble) won the battle on day one. It allowed the I Corps (Reynolds,) the XI Corps (Howard) followed by the rest of the union army, to make the field in time to keep the confederates from proceeding south or east at their will. That the remainder of the union army massed on the ridges to the south (to where Buford, Doubleday, who replaced the fallen Reynolds, and Howard retreated through the town) instead of trying to reinforce them in place.
and when I say that the battle was won on day one, I mean that the union had siezed the high ground, had bloddied the confederates, particularly Heth’s division, and had set themselves up in an absolutely fantastic position on the ridges to the southeast of town. The confederates should have taken the money and ran, because there was no way in hell they were ever going to destroy the Army of the Potomac, especially not once they were entrenched on the high ground, with secured lines of resupply and communication. The artillery advantage the union had was another thing the confederates had to contend with. They outnumbered confederate field pieces something like six to one, and unlike the Army of Northern Virginia, their gunners didn’t have to scavenge for powder or ammo.
soonergrunt
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): To which I would tell you that even Corporals know that if you have a choice between fighting a numerically superior force on the high ground with a massive artillery advantage and good supply and communication, and withdrawing, you might should withdraw and protect your force for another day, perhaps when you can choose the ground.
soonergrunt
@soonergrunt: And finally I would say that even if the union had lost a tactical victory at Gettysburg, it wouldn’t have mattered with Vicksburg in union hands, and the confederacy cut in two.
fuckwit
@Mnemosyne: It was probably based on Washington’s strategy in the Revolution, which worked well in that case. The key error: the South wasn’t an occupied colony 3000 miles away from colonial masters. They FELT that way (victimization! oh my! we are such oppressed white people!), that’s how their propaganda ran, but they weren’t. Their error was that they believed their own bullshit: they really thought it was a war of “northern aggression” and that they could defeat it the way Washington defeated the British. It wasn’t even the same thing.
Jebediah, RBG
@Villago Delenda Est:
Hear, hear! Treason is treason, even if done to advance the “noble cause” of enslaving fellow humans.
Soonergrunt
@Jebediah, RBG: As if 400 years on the North American continent hasn’t provided enough heritage to render 4 years moot.
coin operated
@CaseyL:
This. Thank you for the link.