Via commentor JordanRules. If H&R Block thinks they can turn a buck helping people sign up, Obamacare / the Affordable Care Act is here to stay!
Also, comment from a lurker in the thread below:
I’m a DC local right now I’ve got a housemate who’s interning on the Hill for one of the Republicans who is on record as supporting a clean CR. (I have his permission to post this but not saying which Congressman to preserve his anonymity.) The good news is he said the flood of calls has changed from last week, when it was all teabaggers calling his boss a traitor to mostly being support for a clean CR, and he says the mood in the office seems like the Congressman is ready to get this over with. BUT he only got like four or five calls all day that pressed the issue of the discharge petition, which seems like a missed opportunity to me.
I don’t know what the protocol here is, but if there was ever a time for calling your Congressman and letting him know how you feel, especially if he or she is a Republican you suspect wants to make this go away, this seems like the time.
I’ve been kind of an emotional rollercoaster on the whole thing. One day I feel assured of victory, the next I start panicking about defeat. I don’t see how the Republicans can pull a victory out of this unless they’re ready and willing to take their spiteful destruction of America to unforeseen levels…but they’ve been taking it to new levels for a while now, right? Oy.
Mark Kirk fits that description, and he’s publicly come out in favor of the “clean debt ceiling” option, so maybe I’ll call his staff tomorrow and thank him for not being nuts. I think positive reinforcement is important. The reason congress is so immune to reality is that the vast majority of people they hear from are teabagger freak shows. If you got ten calls a day saying that you’ll be gut like a fish for daring to oppose the tea party, you’d be hesitant about sticking your neck out too.
Called my Republican Congressman earlier today asking him to urge Boehner to bring a clean CR to the floor for a vote (did not specifically ask him to sign the discharge petition, which I should have) and to vote for it on the floor to open the government back up. I mentioned that he had a reputation as a moderate Republican and this was his opportunity to prove it. Of course Frelinghyusen is such a family legacy here in NJ that he probably can get away with just about anything, but I am hopeful he will do the right thing if his constituents ask him to.
Just Some Fuckhead
Screw the discharge petition. That’ll just make ’em hold default as the next hostage. Stand firm, when those treasonous Republican swine finally have to cave, they’ll think long and hard about taking hostages again.
That’s exactly what I thought when I saw the commercial too AL. LOL
I’m interested to see where else the law will create new business opps, scams and pop culture breaches. I understand how much freedom entreprenuerial types will have but some intersting niches will come of it as well.
Once we’re done being held hostage that is. Le sigh
@Just Some Fuckhead: If they break and vote for the discharge petition, they sure as fuck will vote to raise the debt ceiling.
Before anyone goes taking victory laps about the ACA, the website is a complete mess. I started the process by registering and got to the point where I was told an email had been sent to my email address so that I could confirm my registration – six hours later no email, and I can’t start over again because, of course, my user name has been taken and I can’t sign in because I haven’t clicked on the link in the thusfar non-existent email.
Tried to use the Live Chat for help, had to wait for about 10 minutes for anyone to be available only to be told they can’t help me and I’d have to call a number. Fortunately the GOP’s complete asshattery has distracted the media, but if they don’t get these website snafus fixed ASAP there is going to be hell to pay. I realize every big program has glitches, but given today’s political atmosphere every problem will be highlighted and the ACA will be in real trouble if something isn’t done. No excuse for a crappy website.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Omnes Omnibus: nonono no. Many Republicans are urging them to let the six weeks CR hostage go and take the debt ceiling hostage because that’s a hostage Democrats will “care about saving.”
@Just Some Fuckhead: Okay, their logic makes no sense to me. Maybe I should just do a late night Taco Bell run.
Jesus, Jon Stewart! She just told you three times why individuals can’t delay and businesses can.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Omnes Omnibus: There logic is to take a prized hostage we will negotiate for. We can’t negotiate because there will be no end in sight to the hostage taking. This is what we tried to tell you appeasers the last coupla times.
Secondly, we can’t save the fuckers from themselves. They have got to get nothing but a giant headache from this endeavor. Conservatives only understand pain. It’s the only thing that will cause them to operate differently going forward.
They don’t think like you and me. They are more like angry, dumb animals. Let them chew off their own leg to get out if this trap and there’s a pretty good chance they’ll steer clear in the future.
Yeah, I can’t figure out what the hell they’re trying to do. (un)Friendly advice, ‘baggers: If you give up now, everyone will assume you’ll do it again. Dems, the media, your base, everyone. You can only win a game of chicken if the other isn’t sure you’ll pull away. And yes, any GOPer who crosses lines to get the government funded and accepts that the ACA is the law will absolutely vote for a debt ceiling increase because a) It’s not the president’s signature achievement, so the temptation to stick it to him personally is lessened, and b) it really would be economically ruinous if the US defaulted on its debt, something anyone with a brain understands. To use the Tea Party’s beloved government-is-a-household metaphor, it would be like refusing to pay back any of your loans and assuming that the bank won’t repossess your shit because they’re so happy that you’re suddenly being thrifty, or something. Total fairy-tale bullshit, in other words.
I mean, I’d love it if the GOP goes full steam ahead with that stupid, self-defeating plan, but, I don’t know, as someone who cares about intelligence just in general, it’s kind of painful to see so many grown men and women being so stupid, let alone irrational and spiteful.
So, basically, we’re in a game of chicken against people whose worldview is like Michelle Bachmann.
Yeah, this should end well.
@Irony Abounds: At least I got the e-mail, but then when I clicked on it, it said that the website was currently unavailable. So, don’t think that just getting the e-mail will be very helpful, if you ever get it. I’m willing to wait for a few days and expect to be able to get the coverage eventually, but right now, I’m not impressed either.
The Republicans are insane. I’m calling Mark Kirk tomorrow – like that’ll do any good.
Lurkers have names, too!
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Angry, dumb animals aren’t self-aware, though. If they lose the whole fight-ACA gets funded, government gets funded, debt ceiling raised, GOP subject to near-universal public scorn, it just makes them angrier. Like hell they’re gonna sit down and say “OK, this hostage-taking thing doesn’t really work, new plan.” I honestly thought the GOP’s fever would break after the 2012 election, having realized they can’t win* doing what they’re doing and that it’s time for some self-examination. Ha ha. I’d be a sucker to take that bet now. I’d say the only thing that gets through their thick skulls is if S. King, Broun, Gohmert, etc. (Bachmann’s retiring) get booted in 2014, and maybe not even that.
*-Of course there’s always the theory that all the Republicans are aiming for to begin with is a big enough congressional majority to fuck things up. I’d buy that. They’ve already learned they can do it with just a slim lead in one house of congress.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@patroclus: Are you talking about healthcare.gov or a state exchange website?
It took me a lot of time, you know I had all the web site fails.
But I will save $100/month I wasn’t’ sure what would happen when I went there.
I work for myself and I buy a single payer plan. It sucks.
I was at Healthcare.gov literally hitting refresh, refresh, refresh.
When the prices came up I could not believe it.
Bachmann’s only retiring because she thinks the end times is near.
I’ve heard she wants to run for the Senate, although I don’t know if that’s accurate or just a rumor. Either way, watching her try to debate Al Franken would be high comedy.
@Spaghetti Lee: ok. But what happens between now and 2014? We don’t inspect meat? It’s 450+ days until a new congress.
I might try to go to coveredca.com on Thursday or Friday.
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Healthcare.gov it was. I got there, and chose my state (Illinois), waited 5 minutes and it then gave me a notice saying to check my e-mail which confirmed my registration. Which I did, and it then took me to a page that was “temporarily unavailable.” So, no health insurance for me. I guess I’ll have to wait.
The Republicans are insane – my students and I discussed the ramifications of a debt default tonight in class. They had never heard of the trillion dollar coin idea and thought it was stupid. They didn’t like Obama issuing an executive order and causing impeachment either. They wanted a clean CR and a clean debt limit increase and didn’t understand why the Republicans won’t do it.
I’m not saying keep the gov’t shut down until then (I think there will be a clean CR passed soon, but I wish I was more confident), but that win or lose, the fucking crazies in congress will still be fucking crazy and the only thing that might calm them down is getting booted out the door. Of course, that wouldn’t ‘calm them down’ so much as ‘shut them up’, but I’ll take it.
Edit: discounting that they’ll inevitably wind up as Special Political Consultants on Fox News. At least they won’t be able to fuck things up directly.
Sadly, I think that’s exactly where we are headed; as I said in a dead thread earlier, I fully expect the Republicans to not raise the debt limit…
…but we won’t default. They will make Obama live within this new “means” by cutting programs that Republicans have tried to cut for decades. Yes, it will be massively unpopular, but, no, they will not give a shit. Having to cut things like Medicare and Social Security and blame it on Obama (and they will surely try and their base will be convinced by Fox News, et al, that it was the Presidents fault) is the wettest of Republican wet dreams.
Of course, if Obama DID default, they’d impeach him in a heartbeat.
I don’t see the way out other than going through hell for a while.
@Just Some Fuckhead: They’re going to take both hostage.
In a libertarian paradise, the NCBA would hire all the furloughed inspectors and set up an inspection service, funded by fees paid by the companies whose beef is being inspected. There would be a tiered fee structure and different levels of scrutiny, so brands could differentiate themselves based on how carefully they are inspected.
Unfortunately, no libertarian has the expertise necessary to create and run a libertarian paradise.
It’s possible that enough of the government is shut down that we won’t default under these conditions. The problem is that revenues don’t come in smoothly and there’s no buffer. The only additional thing Obama can shut down that will generate the necessary savings is Defense. It’s 2/3 of the discretionary budget and most of the other discretionary is already shut down. Obama can’t shut down entitlement programs anyway – he doesn’t have the authority. They’re permanently funded and non-discretionary. That’s why Obamacare isn’t shut down.
@The Dangerman: The only way out is for the truly “fiscally conservative” Republicans to stand up to the Tea Party nihilists. If Wall Street starts taking a beating, I guarantee that Congressmen like Peter King or my rep, Rodney Frelinghyusen, will be getting calls from irate Republican constituents demanding that they fix things. I think there are other similar situations around the country where the shutdown or default screws over a group of Republicans who were never thrilled with the idea in the first place. (ie. the shutdown stopping the issuance of some hunting and fishing licenses) Unfortunately, that means we have to deal with the pain of the Tea Party hostage taking until we hit that tipping point and the rest of the Republican party finally revolts.
(EDIT: On that note, when they took my name and address as part of my call to Rep Frelinghyusen’s office, do you think they do a search to see that I am registered as a Democrat and prioritize my complaints accordingly?)
@patroclus: IL guy here as well. I was on that darn site, an open tab in my browser, and it took me like three days to get in there. I kept filling out the form and getting bumped out. Time and time again. I wanted to throw something. But then I saw my options and was stunned. As I said in another comment I will save $100 a month. And IMHO this is what is key. If I pay what I pay now, I can get the “gold” plan.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Burnspbesq: The site calmed down several days ago. I was able to get most of the way through it, until it started asking for information I did not have, and so I am stalled. I should probably call them and ask why they want it.
@The Dangerman: there’s plenty of money! Obama is stealing your cheques and giving it to solyandra and illegals.
Helpth is a terrible name.
If someone got paid for coming up with that, he or she, in good conscience, ought to return the money, with interest.
the same thing happened to me last night and we just registered at the first page again (same username) and then got the email, which worked. So two tries- same username- no email first try, email second try.
@Tommy: @The prophet Nostradumbass: FWIW, the NY site is running pretty smoothly. Took 10-15 minutes to go through the process to get a quote (which was $450-500 a month for a gold plan which is roughly equivalent in cost and quality to my plan at work)
Aren’t there some discretionary components to them? Each time cuts are needed, it seems like even entitlements are wanted on the table from the Right. Same thing with Obamacare; it is funded, yes, but it must have some discretionary component or their defunding position makes no sense (ok, it doesn’t, but you get my drift).
I agree with your other thought upstairs; they are doubling up and taking both CR and DL hostage.
With 70 percent disapproval of GOP House strategy, the GOP and FOX News can switch public opinion on a dime? And note that Obama cannot just order the Senate to pass what he says so, and Reid will make a huge fuss.
Your’re scenario also assumes the GOP’s plan that some creditors won’t care if they see other creditors stiffed will work. I doubt that it will.
Many, maybe most of the money MOTUs may have contempt for SS, Medicare and Medicaid recipients and the programs, and would like to see them slashed. But NOT that way. Everybody gets their lawful checks cut, or nobody’s happy. The creditors who are privileged at the launch of the House GOPers’ idiotic scheme will be watching cash flows and when things get tight, and the race against redemptions, and will wonder which of them will get cut off next. And someone will get cut off next with a 5 to 10 percent immediate and indefinitely prolonged fed spending cut, that will punish the real economy.
The GOPers plans are all nuts, They’re fools who have gone nuts. And they will lose and fold when they get the blame if they go through with it. Both from the lesser people who receive government checks, and the money MOTUs.
There a few things that keep me from despairing. Not much, but hey. One, the teabaggers have done a lot of damage, but they kind of have a bad record in big, singular showdowns on these fronts. They didn’t stop the ACA from being passed, they didn’t stop it from being declared constitutional, they backed down from a shutdown/default in 2011, and they didn’t stop it from going live. Why do you think so many GOP governors in places like Michigan decided to take that ACA money? Because at the end of the day they know what side their bread is buttered on, and they know, like we do, that people are going to see the lower rates. Part of it has been lucky breaks, part of it sincere effort from the Dems, part of it tactical stupidity from the GOP, but I hold out hope that part of it is that there’s a certain level of insanity that the political non-teabagger establishment simply won’t put up with, and we’ve reached it.
I think the Republicans are going to crack on the CR. We’ll find 20-30 who will break rank and that will be that. Big business doesn’t want a default because it would make their assets worthless, and even if a bunch of them have gone off the reservation, there are plenty who are just there to do big business’ bidding. It seems like every day some new leak comes out about how an anonymous GOPer supports a clean CR. The fact that Boehner has the votes and just needs to stop being a coward is an open secret at this point. I don’t know, maybe it can teeter on this way indefinitely, but I doubt it.
And the bloodletting and headhunting in teabaggerland will be epic. They’ve lost their unified front, and that’s all they had. No one will be scared of their kamikaze threats anymore. The crazies will still be frothing, but they’ll be less powerful. People will realize that Steve King does not in fact have the entire Republican caucus by the balls.
Look, I’m trying to be optimistic here, aight?
@The Dangerman: for Obamacare defunding means repealing the taxes. I don’t think there’s any “replace”. It just means getting rid of the revenue.
@Just Some Fuckhead: Without trying to reignite the fights over the last time, there is nothing else going on in this situation that makes a compromise worth considering. Fuck ’em.
Each time cuts are needed, it seems like even entitlements are wanted on the table from the Right.
It could be that the GOP is full of morons who don’t understand basic civics. Yeah, I know, sounds crazy, but just throwing it out there.
@MattR:: $375 for a “gold” plan here, and I smoke and clicked that box. I was stunned by how low the prices where. Best I can understand my state was one of the few that did a joint partnership with the Federal government. I don’t know why, but we did.
@Spaghetti Lee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iSD9lPVY6Q&t=0m10s
@Just Some Fuckhead: This exactly. They used to think strategically, now they’re pretty much criminals being surrounded. Could not happen to nicer people.
@? Martin: thanks for reminding me of the difference between discretionary spending and non. I’m getting nervous and forgetting them.
There is balance between reduction in federal spending that lowers requirements to borrow, and tipping point where cuts in federal spending harm the real economy and lower revenues. I wonder where that tipping point is, and how the administration handles a refusal to increase debt limit will affect it.
They don’t have to convince all of that 70%; all they have to do is convince enough people in their gerrymandered districts to keep the House. Yes, the Republicans won’t take the White House for a while, but their pretty much demographically fucked there anyway. Same with the Senate, they won’t get control for a while, but if they get 41, that’s enough.
Yes, they have gone bonkers.
Am I the only one who thinks that would be a fuck-up on their part? They’ve been saying for weeks that all they want is for the president to sit down and negotiate about the ACA, then suddenly they say “Oh by the way, we’re willing to crater the country’s credit rating and international value of its assets if we don’t get our way.” The Dems can make the very accurate case for how dangerous that is, and how unhinged the GOP is for taking that step. Maybe I’m wrong, but that seems to be a thing people will understand and pay attention to. If they kept them separate, they could make the (totally bullshit) claim that they’ve given the President what he wants (re-opening the government) so now it’s his turn to compromise. Of course the snag for them there is that re-opening the government isn’t what the President wants, but what everyone except the Tea Party wants.
Everyone who’s following this knows that a vast majority of people are opposed to a government shutdown, blame the GOP for it, oppose using it as anti-ACA leverage even if they don’t support the ACA, etc. Numbers on the ACA are much more mixed, thanks to three years of propaganda and the ease of spreading lies about something that people haven’t experienced firsthand yet. The fact that they decided to tie the two together makes me think they don’t actually have a master plan, and are in fact kind of stupid and terrible at strategy.
I was looking for news about reasons for poor performance of the exchange website in many areas of the country and found this from TPM. Which, unless the Satanic Obama admin is doing a massive coverup (bwah hah hah…). is very good news:
White House: HealthCare.gov Drew Five Times As Many Visitors As Anticipated
Park said the well-publicized glitches that have vexed visitors to the website are a byproduct of the traffic.
“These bugs were functions of volume,” Park said. “Take away the volume and it works.”
Are there any of those left in the House? Unless, by “fiscally conservative” you mean “cut taxes, expect someone else to cut spending, and complain about deficits.” There are plenty of those types.
@jl: What does it say that I immediately assume that Republicans thwarted their efforts to add additional processing power in case volume exceeded expectations?
Probably because Illinois is an oasis of sanity. I don’t know exactly what happened, but I assume that Quinn said that he was totally willing to get the exchange working perfectly so it could help people, at the same time Kasich and Brewer and the rest were throwing their tantrums. A Democratic governor and Democratic supermajorities in the legislature mean that we have to put up with a blessedly small amount of teabagger bullshit. It’s like California-they don’t have the numbers to have any real power anymore, so all they can do is whine.
Enough to continue to muck up the works, but not enough to cut, er, “reform” Social Security and Medicare. Which they never actually do anyway, they just insist it needs to be done and complain that someone else isn’t doing it (and taking the blame for it.)
@Spaghetti Lee: well yes. We would like them to think that. But their voters are convinced that Obama is spending all the money illegally. Or extra constitutionally. Or on unprecedented family vacations. Or giving gifts to donors.
Hell, I’m surprised no one’s found GOP-employed hackers carrying out constant DDos attacks on the website. There is no low-none-to which these people will not stoop.
But you know, the bugs don’t really worry me. They’ll get fixed eventually, people will fall in love with the new affordable plans, that’s that. Whatever the ACA’s fate is, it won’t hinge on opening-week glitches in the system. It doesn’t really work as an insult: “Ha ha, your dumb site is so popular that you can’t handle all the people dying to log in! Losers!”
@Spaghetti Lee:I agree. The GOP House brass has suddenly, and clumsily tried to say what they are really worried about is the deficit and the debt. The way they presented it, the issues of the CR and the debt limit were kind of smushed together.
I think both sides have been clumsy in coming out and explaining why their side is the one that has really for reals, already compromised. Obama did that in a clip I saw today, and I thought it was a weak pitch that he should have skipped.
If the GOP passed a clean CR that would be really doing something to show compromise and then they could move on to try a better replay of 2011.
But that can’t happen because the House GOP caucus is out of control, and while Boehner is trying to shift the topic to the debt, GOP loons in the House are screaming on the media that they will not vote on CR or debt limit unless they get every damn thing they’ve asked for, including the whole ACA.
The House GOP is what anarchy looks like, except without the guns and ammo.
@Redshift: Sadly, that means “believes in paying their bills”. I guess I really mean anyone who is not a true Tea Party believer but has been going along for the ride so far. If they are motivated by fear of a primary from the right rather than ideology, then at least there is a chance they will reverse their position if enough pressure is exerted on them from the other side. OTOH, those 80 members of the suicide caucus that signed the initial letter to Boehner are a lost cause.
Wait. So you’re saying the long lines and wait times to purchase them didn’t kill the iPhone? I thought Apple went out of business because of their opening week issues.
@jl: Well, considering that a few days before it opened, they were downplaying expectations, I think they’d sincerely convinced themselves that they wouldn’t have a huge volume until it was up and running and they got some news stories and stuff out about it.
Still kind of dumb, but I guess they didn’t hire the guys who did the stuff built on Amazon Web Services for the campaign, or they could have scaled up a lot faster. (And Amazon does have a government-only cloud, so it’s not out of the question.)
Yes and no; they may be so far right to be bonkers, but they’re not stupid. They’ve had months to prepare for this shutdown fight. They have some sort of Snidely Whiplash thing that they are sure will work and, well, it won’t, but what that will be beyond making the President live within the current debt limit is beyond me. Maybe if I was far right bonkers, it would make sense. Maybe they will try to rise from the ashes of an economic collapse somehow; in such times, countries to tend to go to the Right (not to Godwin the thread, but see Weimar Republic). Yes, it’s a bonkers strategy, but, well, they are bonkers.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@MattR: I think the Covered CA site is trying to sign me up for Medi-Cal (Medicaid), since I’m unemployed. It has a whole bunch of extra hoops to jump through.
I should probably call them and ask about some of the weird stuff they’re asking me for.
@MattR: One thing we do know, IIRC from news reports of the time, that public perception is that things are going more smoothly than Medicare Part D.
Reimbursement is not not my topic at work, but from what I heard at conferences I went to at the time, the roll out of Part D was complete chaos from the provider perspective. Providers were nervous because the program was rolling out, there were no administrative payment mechanisms had been set up. Seriously. And the administration was saying, basically, ‘get back to us on that.’
@MattR: I understand the distinction you’re aiming for, but I’m old enough to remember when “fiscally conservative” actually meant being in favor of a balanced budget, and then it came to mean “cut taxes, borrow, and spend.” If we allow it to be watered down further to mean “against defaulting on the debt,” then it doesn’t really mean anything other than “not completely crazy,” in which case I’d rather just refer to them as not completely crazy, as a constant reminder that the other guys are completely crazy.
It’s important to remember that even Republicans are not all the same. Bachmann wants the US to default, wants the government to shut down. She probably wants those more than eliminating Obamacare. She has no connection to reality, and if facts can get through to her at all they don’t change her mind because she wants people to suffer. There are others like her, and they will never learn, never stop trying to take hostages. Others are like Peter King, cowards who think this is a terrible idea, but don’t want to be primaried. They would love to eliminate Obamacare, and probably stick it to the safety net if they can, but they’re scared of their reelection chances and the opinions of their wealthy donors if they do shit as crazy as default on the debt. They can be pressured, and are on the edge of breaking as it is. And there’s every layer in-between, like morons who are asking themselves right now why Obama didn’t cave the way they were promised, and floundering as reality hits them in the face.
The same holds true of their base. Some want to burn the nation down. Some just disapprove of everything the negro does, but don’t want chaos. Some are tribally Republicans and are struggling with that affiliation right now because of another round of overreach.
The point is, you can’t judge what they’ll do based on sweeping generalizations. They’re not uniform, they just pretend they are.
They haven’t named any suspects, but I am pretty sure that was what happened to the New York website on Oct 1. Initial reports were that they got something like 10 million visitors in a state of under 20 million people within the first 24 hours which overloaded the system. (EDIT: Not saying it was orchestrated by the GOP, but I think there was definitely some sort of campaign to flood the system if those numbers are correct)
@jl: I have a lot of sympathy for the website developers trying to work through these bugs. I write software for a warehousing company and have gone through some hairy installations. At least they don’t have a line of trucks backing up onto the main road and blocking traffic.
See, I kind of disagree. I think they’re acting stupid and crazy because they are sincerely stupid and crazy. I don’t want to sound too much like a villager talking about “messaging” but damn, the far right’s has sucked. “SAY NO TO OBAMACARE! WOOHOO YEAH SHUTDOWN! WAIT, SHUTDOWN BAD, REFUND THE NATIONAL PARKS AND THE VA AND THE WWII MEMORIAL SITES! SHUTDOWN’S ALL OBAMA’S FAULT, HE WON’T COMPROMISE! WAIT, NOW IT’S ABOUT THE DEBT CEILING! OBAMACARE CAUSED THE DEBT CRISIS! WAIT, NOW WE LIKE THE SHUTDOWN AGAIN, TIE IT TO THE DEBT CEILING!” I mean damn. They’re acting like shrieking morons because they are shrieking morons. I see no evidence of a wider strategy here. What’s kept them afloat is a combination of establishment GOP cowardice and media refusal to call them out, not their own Rovian genius. Remember, Karl Rove is a RINO as far as most teabaggers are concerned.
Karl Rove, their finest mind, bought the Unskewed Kool-Aid. He does seem to be a grifting genius, since they’re still throwing millions at him.
@The Dangerman: They’ve had months to prepare, but they’ve been preparing in a bubble where everyone is convinced that Obama will give in because he is “weakened” by Syria, and other bizarre delusions. I don’t think the people who planned this are stupid, exactly, but when you take ostensibly rational thought processes and hook them up only to sources of information that tell you what you want to hear, you can come up with pretty stupid results. Remember, these are the same people who were stunned on Election Night that Romney didn’t win.
Since the last VA governor’s race really started the ball rolling to the horror of the 2010 election, it would be great if shutting down the government over the PPACA started a move the other way.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@MattR: On Maddow’s show tonight, she said that the NY people suspected that, but looked into it, and, no, it was completely the website load that caused the problems.
Today’s torrent of “not raising the debt limit is no big deal” coming from them is evidence of something; if it was only a couple of whack jobs like Bachmann, well, chalk it up to being whacky; no, there was something more in the wind today and it didn’t smell well.
Time to call it a night; early appointment in the AM.
@Kay: please. Please. Vote for the stuffed shirt. It’s important!
Bachmann’s only retiring because she thinks the end times is near.
Bachmann’s retiring because the prosecutors and the ethics investigation are breathing down her neck.
Her Iowa campaign leader just got booted from the Iowa Senate after a special investigator charged that he broke ethics rules by accepting payments from a political action committee associated with U.S. Rep. Michele Bachmann, and that his denials of taking such payment may represent a felony under Iowa law.
I believe there are similar problems brewing for her in Minnesota and in Washington DC.
Like so many wingnuts, she apparently believed that the rules just didn’t apply to her, because her cause was just.
@Spaghetti Lee: The GOP won’t win this, but the reasoning behind this led to 1861-1865. That’s how far they were willing to go then, so whatever harm you think they’re unwilling to bring to this country, think again. There are moments I think we might be better off to just start shooting and get thing over with.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@joel hanes: I believe the term is “heavenly deception” ((R) Sung Myung Moon)
Remember when Anonymous came out and said ORCA was a massive vote stealing scheme? It’s probably nonsense, but think of how the Republicans have acted recently; it starts to make sense if they thought the fix was in.
Been a long day, so maybe I’m just tired, but there’s so much weird shit going on, I wouldn’t put anything past them at this point.
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Wow. That is a bit surprising. That is a lot of demand, even if you account for the same person attempting to hit the page multiple times. Good to know. Thanks.
@? Martin: nope. Shooting was ok when we were an emerging power. Now that our army is all over the world, I could easily see us involving 1/2 the planet.
Well, THANKS, that will lead to sweet dreams (reaches for alcohol); sadly, I do fear there will be gunfire before this is over. No idea how it happens, but it will make Tim McVeigh look like a piker.
I’ve never thought that an actual civil war was possible for one simple reason: how old is Fox News’ average viewer? 60, maybe? Oh, but I’m sure strapping young College Republicans will trade in their polo shirts for combat fatigues. Yeeeaaahhh.
They’re loud. They’re insane. They’re heartless. And they can do and have done a lot of damage. But in other ways, they’re isolated and weak. That could describe any number of terrorist groups. I think that’s important to remember too. ‘Night, everyone.
@Redshift: Apparently they haven’t noticed, but Obama got exactly what he was after on Syria – and more than he appeared to be asking for – and he got Russia to pay for it. Few presidents have failed so successfully.
I think Obama’s negotiation in the debt limit should be to sell Alabama. They’re costing us a fortune anyway.
I’m afraid that the teahadis in Fox Nation think that shutting down the government is a good thing in and of itself.
I saw an article full of quotes from people in Steve King’s western Iowa district: they were all for it.
These are paraphrases :
“The country is broke; maybe this will teach the tax-and-spend Democrats that they can’t ram socialism down our throats”
“Maybe it’ll take something like this to stop the runaway government spending”
“Something has to stop Obama. We want Constitutional government, not all this socialist spending”
Who’d buy it?
Well, yeah, I said a majority, not everyone. The split’s about 70-30, or perhaps closer to 73-27, from what I’ve seen.
China. They have money. Nice port, lots of state-of-the art military bases they can take over. What’s not to like?
Not according to Jack Lew. He says he’s been shuffling & doing all the special tricks he can. We actually hit the debt limit in May.
If I remember right, as of Oct. 18th, he said we’d have something like $30 B in “cash”. And we have days where we have $60 – 70 B in payables. So, really, the R’s need to get their shit together already.
Villago Delenda Est
The stupid. It BURNS!
$170B GDP. I think we could get the $600B needed to balance the budget this year. Alabama additionally costs the Federal government $20B annually. Not a huge dent in the deficit, but bigger than most of what the GOP is asking for. Plus it’s a 2 point swing to the Dems in the Senate and a 5 point swing in the House.
For the 2015 budget, we can sell neighboring Mississippi. By the time the Confederacy is sold off, we’ll have a balanced budget.
That presumed we were paying federal employees, contractors, paying states for SNAP (non-discretionary, but Congress failed to renew funding), etc. We’re doing almost none of those things. Lew has virtually no budget with which to pay any bills. When you subtract all of that out, our receivables might be high enough to stay under the line.
Lew’s never updated his projections to account for a shutdown.
@joel hanes: Steve King’s district is polling as a tossup due to the shutdown. Anecdotes aren’t going to get him reelected.
what is so disheartening is that here we are, a hundred and sixty years post the civil war and these fuckers are back again, trying to not only establish themselves into some fucking plutocracy and implement this hypocritical theocratic chrsitianist state but making damn sure that any societal progress of the last century and a half is deep sixed. We’re replaying the civil war, but instead of arms on the field, we’re having to do it with political and financial power. One of the problems we’re facing is the short-sightedness of the financial sector for short term gains and a plethora of greedy bastards that place financial wealth and “acumen” as the highest achievement possible to the detriment of hard science and economic and societal security.
I’d like to think that if we took a science fiction approach to the issue and got everyone who is tired of these asshats to engage in some sort of intergalactic diaspora and spread out to the stars, these same fucks would come after us because it NEVER FUCKING ENDS with these people. They can’t be happy unless they’re winning everything, all the time and not only do they have to be winning, they insist that we CHEER for them as well.
Discharge petitions are normally only heard on the second and fourth Mondays, but could come up anytime if they wanted them to. We just missed the second Monday.
Steve King’s district is polling as a tossup
That’s wonderful news.
But that’s today.
I have great faith in the teahadi ability to forget what happened a short time ago; otherwise, they’d all have gone blue after W screwed so many pooches.
Christy Vilsack is a nice person, and her heart’s in the right place, but she’s not a charismatic candidate.
OTOH, these jokers aren’t finished blowing up Washington DC yet; barring some miracle that saves them from themselves, I think that the pendulum will continue to swing.
But forty five years as a Democrat has taught me not to hope too much.
“Nixon? Ike’s hatchet man, sweaty, heavy beard, lost to JFK? You must be kidding.”
“Reagan? The actor? You must be kidding.”
“Shrub? The family black sheep, habitual fuck-up, and military deserter? You must be kidding?”
Karl Rove, their finest mind, bought the Unskewed Kool-Aid.
My read on that is that Karl Rove was confident that he had successfully cheated his way to another Republican victory, and was dumfounded that the skeevy schemes he had arranged either misfired or were inadequate.
Especially the latter.
@amk: I think that may be changing just for this debt ceiling issue. Big business wants this insanity to stop, and they own the media.
Just yesterday I heard that NPR, of all places, is issuing a new policy that “both sides do it” reporting is not reporting the truth, and they are to stop stretching the news to make everything artificially balanced. At least for now.
Won’t last beyond this fight of course, but I’m betting the Republicans are going to get trashed in the media until they cave.
Why Kentucky’s Health Exchange Worked Better Than Many Others
Will believe it when I see it. They don’t even have to trash them in public. Just get on boner’s ass in private to bring it to vote and then pull the strings of their puppets to get the votes needed to pass the bill.
@Villago Delenda Est:
The stupid. It BURNS!
See Arendt, Hannah : evil, banality thereof
These are ordinary people, the second cousins of Uncle Henry and Auntie Em. Many of them live in very small towns. They believe they are nice people, decent folk. Not like … you know.
They listen to talk radio in the kitchen, and watch Fox News on the tube at night. From such propaganda grows a poisonous fruit.
@Irony Abounds: I manage websites and this would have been a rollout that would have me worried about my job. Looks nice but, man, it’s a mess. I have coverage, just wanted to register to prove to a doubter friend of my wife that she and her family could afford and could get affordabe coverage in wingnut Louisiana. (wife’s friend is a big time PUMA – claims she’s recovered but I don’t buy it) The downtimes are one thing. But once I was finally able to register the site wouldn’t let me log in and gave me all kinds of “that user name is taken” messages or “we can’t find that profile” when I tried to activate my account or retrieve/change my pw. I’ve try over 20 times and it just doesn’t work. How they could roll something out this bad is beyond comprehension. Even mom and pop’s do better. I mean, it’s just crap. Thank FSM for the wingnut craziness that has dominated the airwaves because this web site is atrocious.
Senate Democrats plan to introduce debt ceiling legislation.
wapo to Obama & dems: Throw boner a bone.
Yeah, fuck the country, it’s gop that needs saving.
Bernstein is all over Joe McCarthy.
@amk: Rep. Boehner negotiated a bill with Sen. Reid and then changed his mind. The democrats are tired of negotiating with a liar. When the Washington Post writes an opinion piece explaining why it’s necessary to reward a liar, then maybe I’ll read it.
Saw this and thought of those guys whining about having to pay premiums to cover old peoples medical care
One day all this will be yours!
@JPL: They spent the entire article saying why orange man is an unreliable & clueless pos and yet end up telling dems should compromise with him anyway. librul media, my ass
I don’t think Boner is a liar, I think he really did want that deal. What he is though is a leader who is not allowed to lead, his tail is wagging him. I wonder how big a shock it was when he presented the plan to his caucus & was told ‘no dice’. I also wonder if he alerted Reid to the change or let him find out with the rest of us
@Schlemizel: Nope. Both Obama & Reid straight out called him a liar.
@raven: There will be few tears shed, if Ted Cruz comes out of this mess tarnished .
CBS is showing all the times Boehner said he would not negotiate with the White House. This is good news for Romney.
@amk: It’d be funny if they changed their tune and said maybe he (Boehner) is suffering from dementia. Mocking works.
@? Martin: Not sell the red states. Foster care.
California can get Alabama, and NY takes on Mississippi, because we could use the ports. Teach them how to turn on the economic engine latent in their population, with education, food, and health care. Get rid of things like “right to work” which keep them oppressed under low wages.
Red states don’t have to be a drag on our economy. I tell you they can learn!
@WereBear: No way, we already have an Alabama. It’s called the Central Valley, and then there’s San Berdo county.
Anyway, Martin was trying to raise some quick cash for when we default. Foster care doesn’t help with that.
This is what Boehner would like us to think. He is a liar. He wants to bring the President down.
I think it is to verify you are in the district and are a constituent calling in. Before the 2010 redistricting (NJ has a non-partisan redistricting committee), my town was partly in NJ-1 and NJ-3 and I had give the four digit sub-zipcode, when I called my rep.
Now I’m fully in NJ-3.
Plan on calling Runyan’s office before going to work.
EDIT: I called last week and the person, who took my call also wanted my e-mail ID, which I didn’t give because I want to cut down on spam.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Looks like Cruz is the first causality in all this…
The problem with arguing for a settlement is that assumes the GOP has a plan. It’s pretty clear each of those 30 tea party Reps has their own idea on what they want and they are all terrified of being seen as a compromiser. This is going to keep on going until the House GOP splits.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Schlemizel: I think it’s pretty clear what happened – the House had a deal with the Senate that would fund the government until December, then they would use that to get passed the deficit and so on until the primaries were done. They were all set to do it when Cruz waddled in and started throwing bombs. The House leadership then retaliated by passing that BS funding resolution that they knew would never pass the Senate just make Cruz look like a jerk and now were are in the mess we are now.
A republic, if you can keep it.
Things don’t look good this morning, do they?
@joel hanes: that was my interpretation, too. “Ohio? What do you mean, we lost Ohio? I’ve still got the receipt for Ohio right here! Check again!”
I keep fearing an event like the underlying plot in the series Jericho. Hopefully, there have been enough command shifts in the USAF to get the worst loons moved away from sensitive posts.
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
And I still think the real money boys will eventually push to that end to get this thing over with. GOP unity and casualties be damned.
I’ve had a similar problem, except I got almost all the way through registering, all the way to identity validation, when it suddenly decided that the passwords and secret question answers I had plugged in were no longer correct. So now I’m completely blocked from the site. Even I have lost patience with this now, and am left wondering how they managed to fuck this up so badly. I guess I’ll have to wait for a few months to shop for insurance.
Obama must be the luckiest guy alive– a horrible Obamacare program rollout and because the teatards are on a kamikaze mission to defund it, there’s no media attention being paid to the fact that it’s a clusterfuck for millions who have tried to use it.
Ok, maybe “lucky” isn’t exactly the right word.
@JPL: Its not even a question of rewarding a liar–you can’t negotiate with a liar because nothing you’ve negotiated can be depended on. We are already seeing this in action and have been for years. Whatever Boehner negotiates he then goes back on and explains that “his caucus” won’t let him. Tea Partiers are on record during this shut down telling us they “don’t even know” what would satisfy them and, more chillingly, that there is so much overwhelming masculine pride on the line that nothing less than the original demands ++ will be acceptable.
Their response to humiliation is to double down. In that way they are like idiots at the casion who will go double or nothing just to impress the bored bar girls and because they are afraid to go home, having wasted the family money, without something to show for it.
@Gypsy Howell: The worst that could happen without the hostage crisis is bad media for maybe half a year at best, likely less due to the guarantee of another faux scandal/shiny thing taking it’s place. Once it works, it works.
I can only imagine how New Deal programs probably rolled out less than spectacularly. That being said, of course this mammoth could have been implemented more effectively.
It’s all fun and games until someone loses a portfolio!
Yesterday was the first Monday of the month, which started last Tuesday.
What’s also not getting coverage is Obama’s cancelled trip to Asia. From what I’ve heard on a few small blurbs on the news is that we were supposed to help Asian-Pacific nations, like the Philippines, off-set China’s growing regional influence.
Obama’s absence is noticeable and has pissed off countries, who were looking to us to balance out China’s influence.
EDIT: Also the clown car of a House has people wondering how they can deal with the U.S., if we are so screwed up now. There are already consequences for this shutdown.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
It sure would be. I suspect, though, that she’s going to run for Governor against Mark Dayton, which would be almost as fun.
Fareed Zakaria gives his take on the U.S. government shutdown, calling it extortion
Just called my Repugnant Congress critter and asked the little puke on the other end what the critter intends to do about the Default. “I haven’t spoken her about that”. I asked if the critter was going to give her constituents advice on where to invest current retirement savings. All I got was a derp.
WaPost: As of 9:30 this morning:
Call a few, and tell them you appreciate their support.
I just got off the phone with one congressman’s office; young man did not ask if I was a constituent, but was happy to hear the thanks.
He said they were getting calls of thanks, more calls of people saying this is “too little too late,” and complaints from a “vocal minority.”
@Elizabelle: Wittman is my district. I did email him, so I’ll take all the credit for his not being 100% absurd here.
My Rep is loony tunes Scott Garrett in NJ — he’s a home-schooling far right christianist nutjob who thinks that default would be fabulous. Sent him a note asking him to stop being an extortionist. Doubt it will do anything but maybe if these loons get enough pushback, they’ll pause. We apparently can only hope and pray these days.
I used the contact form on his website to ask my Congressman to sign the discharge petition and then vote for a clean CR. This is the response I received:
I appreciate you taking the time to contact me. Unfortunately, due to employee furloughs, there will be a delay in providing you with a response. Please know that I value your opinion and will respond to you as soon as I can.
Should you need immediate assistance, please contact my Dallas office 972.392.0505, or my DC office at 202.225.2231.
Hahahaha– I got the infamous PPP poll about Meehan a couple days ago. You can imagine my answers. Fuck that guy. I hope he goes down with the USS Teatard.
i emailed all three of my congress critters and basically said:
I’m writing to encourage you to vote for a clean CR and to increase the debt limit.
To vote against either is like ordering a meal in a restaurant and then skipping out on the bill.
Surely our congress is better than that.
I called in to my local rep, Republican Larry Buschon to ask for him to support a clean CR. Probably won’t do any good, as his ads during the last election actually talked about the Obamacare death panels (how someone with an M.D. can actually believe that, let alone spread the lie, I can’t truly imagine). But I politely left a message with a staff member and he politely took it.
I’m a bit bummed. I make 75k, but have enormous debt due to losing a lot of business after the crash (I’m an acupuncturist in a rural, blue-collar county dependent on National Park tourism – YAY shutdown!). Plus a divorce, so I’ve got two kids I’m paying 1000k a month child support for (happy to, but it means, on top of the debt, I have $200 / week for eating, paying gas, and medical expenses). Since the kiddos are not “in my household” primarily (mother moved two hours away for work & better school system) that doesn’t matter, so I have a household of one. Currently, I have a HSA high-D Anthem plan here in SW CO, and the premium is $175 / month, but I’ll take a $6500 hit before it can ever pay anything (at 100% at least). So no subsidies available, and the bronze plan is $150 MORE than what I’m paying now for the same Anthem plan. How does that work? No savings for me, and if I get really sick or injured, I lose my business, my house, and get hit with a deductible I can’t pay. I’m guessing my plan is low cost now prob because I’m very healthy (good genes, good lifestyle, and very good luck).
But anyway: where’s my socialism, Obama? Seems like I’m one of those people who are well-off on paper, but living precariously and who cannot get sick, just like the uninsured earning lots less than me. On the other hand, I’m a utilitarian and I am ambivalent about existence in general, so if the greater portion of Americans are getting helped by this seemingly fake-ass system, then awesome job, good show, and I’ll just keep trying not to get sick.
It just seems like, in my case, community pricing has screwed me over. Thank pasta I already have a grandfathered plan.
Were you able to get all the way through the system to get quotes, or are you going by the basic calculator that was up at healthcare.gov? I think the full system takes things like child support into account.
Also, it looks like people in some states are getting screwed harder than in others. TaMara, who is in Colorado, is getting sky-high quotes even from the exchanges, while people in Minnesota are getting very low quotes for the same policies. Unfortunately, the state you live in matters a LOT when it comes to what kind of deal you can get, particularly if you live in a state with a Republican governor and/or legislature that threw up a bunch of roadblocks in your way.
@Mnemosyne: Dem gove & leg in CO. And yeah, went through the hoops, but don’t qualify for any assistance, and the rates are so much higher than I expected. I think my main beef is there shouldn’t be a High-D, life-destroying option at all, nevermind at 100% more than before. $300 / month should get you goddamned healthcare, not the promise of paying bills for a decade from income you won’t have anymore, because you got fucking sick or hurt. I mean, Jesus, my home insurance is $750 a YEAR, and they’ll rebuild my $200000 home w/ $1000 deductible. I don’t see why health ins. has to be 10x more expensive for a fraction of the payoff.
People in Colorado are definitely getting hosed, and no one seems to have a good answer why (though it seems to have something to do with only having one or two companies in the state to begin with).
Definitely start writing/calling your governor and state reps and demand to know why Minnesotans have to pay less than half of what you do for health insurance. It’s not the PPACA that’s the problem, it’s your state’s implementation of it, and as a citizen you have a right to know why your state is making you pay through the nose when other states are doing better for their citizens.