This morning’s Times tells me there was a demonstration yesterday on the Mall yesterday in support of immigration reform. It was probably planned long before the shutdown, and it was allowed because it would violate the First Amendment if it were stopped, so teatards were able to scream about dirty browns having more rights than white old men at the WW II memorial.
Anyway, that triggered a memory, but I want to make sure it wasn’t a dream or something implanted in my head by aliens, so I’m asking you guys. Do you remember some people saying after the election that Republicans in Congress had to be more moderate and reasonable on immigration otherwise they’d be a permanent minority party? I can’t believe it happened, because typing “moderate and reasonable” in the same sentence as “Republicans in Congress” almost crashed my computer, but I do have a pretty strong memory of it.
RaflW
I’ll say this for the shutdown and debt limit:
It’s taken the pressure off GOP legislators to deal with immigration. Super-crappy way to deflect the energy, but possibly a feature, not a bug?
Ash Can
Those teatards can get back to me when they’re able to furnish proof that 200 of those white old men were arrested.
Anya
I thought it was a rally in support of immigration reform. Am I mistaken?
Suffern ACE
Well they did send Rand to Howard and promote Dr. Carson. What more do you want?
Woodrowfan
But isn’t the Mall itself open, just not the buildings and monument areas. Or am I mistaken? (I haven’t been downtown since this began).
virginia
That would’ve been a tangerine dream. Similar to the reveries surrounding W and Presidente Fox of Mexico getting together just before 9/11.
I’m half-latina. It’s amazing to me, truly, the number of Republican friends I have — and I do still have a few — who will without batting an eyelash trash talk “Spanish people” or Hispanics or “Latins” etc right in front of my twitching nose.
And of course once you call them out on their racism and stupidity, it’s all “No no no — How could you think that? I LOVE you.” Even more amusing are the ones who say, “But you’re a South American — not Central!” One puts up with a certain amount of this idiocy because most folks have something to offer but, in the last week or so, I for one have decided it’s time to clean house. I’m sickened and revolted by this entire mess–all across the board. Ja basta.
But, yeah, hey, Viva Zapata, pass the taquitos, and crank up the Bossa Nova. We’re all banana republicans now. One of the richest aspects of the current coup attempt is the fact Ted Cruz refuses, for obvious reasons, to call himself by his true blue family given name!
dmsilev
Speaking about minority outreach, I give you Exhibit #1235534 of how wearing bow ties appears to be correlated with being a supercilious jackass:
Waldo
In related news, hardcore meth-heads are seriously thinking about quitting — right after their next fix.
Waspuppet
@Ash Can: yeah, but they had to WAIT! What could possibly be worse than a white man having to wait a few minutes for something?
It’s like when the Tea Party groups had to WAIT for their nonprofit status, which was way worse than the liberal groups who were actually denied. Can you even shine they had to WAIT just because there was a suspicion that a group with the word Party in their name was maybe engaging in political activity?
aimai
@virginia: I’m with you up until the criticism of Cruz for going by Ted instead of Rafael. I think its dumb of him but its no more shameful than Obama going by “Barry” for a while. People’s given names are often not the ones they choose when they grow up, for whatever reason and no reason. I bow to no one in my dislike of Cruz but his going by ted instead of rafael is neither here nor there.
aimai
@dmsilev: Oh my fucking god that guy is dumb. I no longer think this is just some pablum they whip up for the rubes. I really think they can’t see the difference between the current “nullification crisis” and resistance to Dred Scot and the fugitive slave acts. But if he wants to go all “John Brown’s Body” over some 19 year old paying a 95 dollar fine for not signing up for health care, be my fucking guest George. I’ll be first up with the rope.
MattF
There’s been a fair amount of “Conventional Wisdom held that Republicans would have to be more moderate after the election, but that was wrong,” however I don’t know if Mr. Wisdom himself ever said it publicly. WaPo editorials would be a good place to search for it, if you have the stomach for that.
celticdragonchick
Just putting this out there for thought:
Does anyone else here think that the unbelievable bullshit put out yesterday that the debt limit isn’t real…and that crashing it will do nothing at all because the POTUS can pay the bills anyway he likes…is simply cover for an inevitable impeachment vote the moment that the stock market crashes and people unload their T-bills? Is this all a ploy to provide deniability so the GOP can say “We told you that this didn’t have to happen! The Kenyan did it! There was enough money to cover the debt!” when they proceed with their coup?
That’s my read on it. I am wondering if anyone else is interpreting this the same way.
No One of Consequence
@dmsilev: DOOD! I *JUST* heard this driving to work. FFS. Why does anyone give a hot mic to George Fuggin’ Will?!! Isn’t it torture enough for this country that they give him ink? He should have to scribble down the monologues of the voices in his head on scavenged birch bark with his own feces.
He then went on to describe how just his same thing was done by Mondale, Kennedy and another in ’73 when they tried to attach a campaign finance reform bit to a continuing resolution or somesuch. I had stopped paying attention by then. Reforming campaign finance is right up there with trying to tank this country (and the world at large’s) economy.
Do some fuggin’ reporting Will. Find out how many of these congressweasels and senators are making bank off of the shorts they are putting on the market. I think this whole thing stinks, and that some fuggers are getting wealthy off of the mess. While the rest of us are stuck with you droning on about your memory of others doing this same thing, and all of us small-minded plebes should just trust our betters like you.
Totally exasperated,
– NOoC
Dedc79
@RaflW: definitely a feature aimed at taking us from crisis to crisis all through the first two years of Obama’s second term. And probably the last two as well. The aim being to prevent him from getting any other big legislative wins, immigration especially.
MattF
@dmsilev: I think the correct response to that is “What you mean, ‘We’, kemosabe?'”
Belafon
@dmsilev: And laws are changed are removed by one of the following three methods:
1. The supreme court
2. Writing a new law
3. Civil War
He seems to think that 3 is the best option.
Ash Can
Yeah, like GOP party leaders themselves. They said that about immigration and about other things as well. Remember Bobby Jindal saying that the GOP can’t be the “stupid” party anymore? Remember Reince Priebus announcing a multimillion-dollar GOP outreach program directed at women? Also, something about “rebranding”?
Yeah. That all turned out great. The fact is, they can’t help themselves. They’re sociopathic extremists, feckless cowards, and often both at the same time. It’s their nature.
MattF
@celticdragonchick: I agree with that. There’s definitely an ‘impeachment caucus’ in the House, and I think a drawn-out Senate trial next summer would be an amazing break for the Dems.
scav
@dmsilev: Yes, there are ever so many lithographs in 19th C schoolbooks of pouty little minority-fringe lawchangers of America crashing the international credit and reputation of America in order to change laws. Might even show up on a few hornbooks. C is for the constitution. D is for the Dollar and Dudgeon that trumps it.
JPL
@celticdragonchick: I’m going to call and ask my congressman where in the Constitution does it give the President to pick and choose what bills to pay? Treasury has to pay bills but I cannot find where it says only some bills and you decide.
celticdragonchick
@aimai: Aaaand that is why I think we have a non negligible chance that things will end up in violence.
We are dealing with utter absolutists who no longer regard the democratic system as legitimate when it produces any result they do not like, and they are willing to actually destroy the government (in fact, many are explicitly eager to do so!) and are using language derived from the Revolution and the Civil War as a basis to justify their actions.
Also, mentioned recently, half of all Republicans think an armed uprising may be “necessary” in the near future.
Ash Can
@celticdragonchick: For some time now, I’ve been willing to bet things of significant value on impeachment being the ultimate outcome of this imbroglio. Your theory sounds as good as any regarding the excuse the House GOP will ultimately trump up.
Belafon
@celticdragonchick: I think you’re giving them too much credit. The people who believe this believe the earth is 10,000 years old, that Obama stole the election, and I forget the third. They have convinced themselves that we are so awesome that we’ll magically not ruin our economy by defaulting.
dmsilev
@scav: To be fair, the 19th century brought us Calhoun and the doctrine of nullification, which isn’t all that far away from the GOP’s attitude today. Of course, that was one of the things that helped ratchet up tensions leading to the Civil War, so maybe not so great an idea to replicate.
C.V. Danes
They already are a permanent minority party, demographically. What we need to do is make them a permanent minority party electorally.
Tone in DC
@virginia:
I had something like this happen at work. This guy was talking about “ghetto rats”. Like a black man wasn’t looking him in the eye when he said it.
Oh, I didn’t mean you!
Comrade Dread
Yes, and I remember saying then that that would happen when pigs fly out of my ass, because it’s much easier to just suppress the votes of the pigmentationly enhanced than it is to stand up to the racist f***tards in their party and say, “Stop being racist f***tards.”
Alex
http://growthopp.gop.com/rnc_growth_opportunity_book_2013.pdf
Weirdly, I don’t see the section on shutting down the government to
kill Obamacarenegotiate or something.celticdragonchick
@MattF:
I agree with that. There’s definitely an ‘impeachment caucus’ in the House, and I think a drawn-out Senate trial next summer would be an amazing break for the Dems.
In the short term, yes.
In the long term, I think it would be the end of our system of government as we know it.
The impeachment of two Democratic presidents in a row would pretty much require retaliation by the Democrats when another Republican got into the office, since they would be faced with the fact that the GOP is committed to over-turning elections and will not restrain themselves. In short, you can’t keep bringing a knife to a gun fight.
Every president would then face the immolation of his or her term in attempts to impeach.
Political scientist Juan Linz predicted that this sort of thing was inevitable in presidential systems:
In a merciful twist of fate, Juan Linz did not quite live to see his prophecy of the demise of American democracy borne out. Linz, the Spanish political scientist who died last week, argued that the presidential system, with its separate elections for legislature and chief executive, was inherently unstable. In a famous 1990 essay, Linz observed, “All such systems are based on dual democratic legitimacy: No democratic principle exists to resolve disputes between the executive and the legislature about which of the two actually represents the will of the people.” Presidential systems veered ultimately toward collapse everywhere they were tried, as legislators and executives vied for supremacy.
http://nymag.com/news/politics/nationalinterest/government-shutdown-2013-10/
MattF
@Tone in DC: FWIW, I think that sort of behavior is a sign of mental illness. Speaking from experience here.
Linda Featheringill
@celticdragonchick:
You might be right about the violence.
But I think that if Obama does something extraordinary [impeachable] and saves the nation, then the risk of violence is lessened.
That might deflect the anger on the side of the insurrectionists and appease the rest of the country.
I agree with Obama: “There are no good options.”
celticdragonchick
@Belafon:
For Yoho and Bachmann, I would go along with that. Dan Barton and some of the other buffoons spouting this line are probably smarter then that, however, and they have enough internal discipline to go along with a plan to destroy the President even if they are fighting like cats and dogs on everything else. The last 5 years bears that out.
JPL
@celticdragonchick: Congressman Price’s office just said that the Constitution doesn’t give the President the right to pick and choose which bills to pay. I mentioned that Rand Paul said he could and I was concerned about the message coming out of Congress.
Belafon
@celticdragonchick: I’m curious how you write something in 1990, that says that all presidential systems have failed, when not all presidential systems had failed.
scav
@dmsilev: Didn’t mean to imply that Attempts at dodgy maneuvers is a recent hobby. Just that it’s not the system as taught and this sort of bullshit isn’t a normal day in the halls, business as usual. Whitewashing this as banal SOP congressional functioning is off the rails, meds and hinges.
Cervantes
@virginia: “One of the richest aspects of the current coup attempt is the fact Ted Cruz refuses, for obvious reasons, to call himself by his true blue family given name!”
He’s been calling himself “Ted” for decades, since before college. It could be self-hatred, I guess, but then why leave the last name intact?
fuddmain
@Belafon:
Let’s not forget some of these people probably know this will blow up the economy, but are more than happy to let it happen in order to help bring about Teh Rapture.
Exhibit A: Bachmann Dispshit Overdrive
RosiesDad
Yes, and this is still true. That they are too stoopid to recognize it is no one’s fault but their own. And if the electorate is less stoopid than they are (a questionable assumption considering the makeup of the nation’s governor’s mansions, state legislatures and the House of Representatives), their wish to remain a somewhat permanent minority party will be fulfilled.
balconesfault
Do you remember some people saying after the election that Republicans in Congress had to be more moderate and reasonable on immigration otherwise they’d be a permanent minority party?
That was before the Supreme’s gave the green light to discriminatory electoral policies. The GOP took a deep sigh of relief, and went back to designing new and more creative discriminatory strategies, like two-tier voting.
celticdragonchick
@Belafon:
He mentioned that the American system was the outlier.
Obviously, his observations on our stability in 1990 are badly out of date.
catclub
@celticdragonchick: I wonder how much the returned check fees will be on the day all the SS checks go out and bounce. Is that in the budget?
Cervantes
@Ash Can: “Remember Bobby Jindal saying that the GOP can’t be the “stupid” party anymore?”
Oh, right! Has Jindal been asked recently about his “stupid party”? I saw the other day he observed courageously that “all of Washington, D.C. is dysfunctional.” Such insight!
[ Bobby:Ted :: Piyush:Rafael ?]
Elizabelle
@dmsilev:
That’s the sound of George Will losing it.
I don’t know how you compare a law enacted to provide affordable healthcare insurance to millions of Americans to a 19th century law to return escaped enslaved people to their slave-owning masters, at a time when many Americans had come to abhor slavery.
George Will has jumped the shark, bowtie and all.
raven
@catclub: I thought it was all direct deposit?
RosiesDad
@celticdragonchick:
You are giving these yokels waaaaaay too much credit. There is no plan here…other than the one the Koch Brothers put in place to stock Congress with a bunch of idiots whose IQ’s do not come close to approaching the ambient temperature in the Chamber.
Mike in NC
Yes, and we all had a good hearty laugh. Next question?
JPL
@raven: I think direct deposit goes into effect next year. It’s not yet mandatory.
celticdragonchick
@JPL:
Yep.
The requirement for the POTUS to pay ALL OF THE BILLS assigned by Congress dates back to the Watergate/Nixon days.
I read somewhere this morning where a commenter suggested that it is a physical and technical impossibility to pick and choose what bills to pay: the software is not designed to allow for the possibility, and much of the workforce has been furloughed.
celticdragonchick
@catclub:
I guess that can go into the pot along with the trillions of dollars in inflation and interest we will be saddled with for generations to come.
I think we can finally call bullshit on the “rational actors working in their best self interest” crap now.
JPL
Because I harbor such negative feelings towards my local congressman, just calling his office gives me the shivers.
It’s a necessary duty though and I recognize that.
Cacti
In 1860, southern revanchists decided they’d rather destroy the country than accept the election of an abolitionist candidate.
Fast forward 153 years, and their grandchildren have decided they’d rather destroy the country than accept the election of a black man.
Confederates haven’t changed a bit.
Elizabelle
@JPL:
Go for it.
Be pleasant, ask the staffer/intern what kind of calls they’re getting, and report back to us.
gogol's wife
I just called my (Democratic) representative’s office. Basically the people in her office in Washington sound just like the commenters here on BJ. They’re powerless, just waiting for Orangeman to decide not to blow up the country.
Cacti
@Elizabelle:
I’m rock solid certain that no slave tilling the fields ever thought “This feels like health care”.
Belafon
@gogol’s wife: Sounds like a bad Band name: Boehner and the Orangemen.
Patrick
@dmsilev:
Tea Idiot!
Maybe somebody should inform Mr Will that if he doesn’t like the system called democracy that he is welcome to leave anytime.
Furthermore, just like I would never do business with a tea idiot, I would no never do business with Mr Will. These people rack up bills and they never pay them. Shameful and un-American!
JPL
@Elizabelle: I did. I told them the call was about the debt ceiling and I was concerned about not raising it. The rest of the call you can see at my comment 34….
Now I’m eating chocolate.. haha
Linda Featheringill
@catclub:
bounced SS checks:
:-)
Of course, SS payments are actually transferred electronically to the recipients bank account. [And I have already received mine!]
Mark S.
@dmsilev:
Of course Will and his buddies can change it. Just win the White House and both houses of Congress.
JPL
@Linda Featheringill: Mine doesn’t arrive until the 18th.. uhoh…
Trinity
OT – Just read this regarding that Trucker traffic jam nonsense scheduled for DC on Friday.
scav
@Mark S.: But that’s so old school and genuflecting at sunbursts in Will’s world! The GOP has moved on to the Unitary Party in One Part of Congress!
dmsilev
Given the Newsmax headline in the ad box of “Rumsfeld: Denying Fallen Soldiers Benefits ‘Inexcusable’ “, and given that we haven’t yet heard of Mr. Rumsfeld either being stuck by lightning or swallowed up by the Earth, I believe we can state with some great degree of assurance that God doesn’t exist.
celticdragonchick
@Belafon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order
They are some serious assholes, imho.
catclub
@raven: It is. (Direct Deposit) But I suspect if you try to make a payment and have insufficient funds, there will be penalties assessed.
I do hate it when they keep saying SS checks, when only a VERY small fraction, if any, receive
checks any more. But that time I slipped up.
dmsilev
@scav: It’s a variant of what someone dubbed the Green Lantern Theory of Foreign Policy: Anything is possible as long as you have sufficient will (or, in this case, sufficient Will). Corollary: Failure can only be due to insufficient will, not to any flaws in the goals or tactics.
Seanly
Someone is going to have to blink. Considering that the Republicans aren’t even sure what they want out of this, it would seem that they would be the ones to blink first. Or has their irrational hatred & incoherent rage locked them into refusing to blink?
I think this only gets resolved with John Boehner sacrificing his speakership by bringing up a clean CR and a debt ceiling increase or suspension. Then the question becomes if Boehner would be willing to do that – I don’t think he is.
gogol's wife
@dmsilev:
Although I’m a believer, I have to add the one under that: “Romney to Hannity: I Wasn’t Clear How Bad Obama Is.”
John O
@celticdragonchick:
Yes, I see it very similarly. Predicted much the scenario you describe via e-mail to some pals about 2 weeks ago:
“My prediction is batten down the hatches; the government shuts down, we default, Obama is Constitutionally forced to bypass Congress to pay the bills, and gets impeached for it. By then, public opinion will have solidified one way or the other.”
gogol's wife
@Seanly:
I am so desperate I suggested to the person in my rep’s office that the Democrats secretly promise him that they’d vote for him. He was noncommittal, but I didn’t get the impression I was saying something that wasn’t under serious consideration.
Patrick
@dmsilev:
Yes, it is. So why don’t you tell your OWN party to open up the fricking government?! As you yourself stated, your own party’s behavior is inexcusable.
BTW – You people claim you hate the government. You do until you don’t. As in your own quote about the death benefit. Or the WWII memorial. Hell, everyday FoxNews (your channel) seems to have a new great thing government should have open.
Morbo
Keith Ellison, or rather Representative Keith Ellison was arrested at the immigration protest. Was the Representative who lifted the barricade at the WWII memorial arrested? As a homework assignment: name one difference between the two that would explain different outcomes.
catclub
@Seanly: “John Boehner sacrificing his speakership by bringing up a clean CR and a debt ceiling increase or suspension.”
Once it is at the absolute last minute, and he HAS to do it, he will not lose the speakership because he HAD to do it – to save the country from the destruction threatened by the inaction of the kenyan usurper.
Belafon
@Morbo: He didn’t yell at an unpaid park employee?
JPL
@catclub: It’s not gonna happen.
Bill Arnold
@celticdragonchick:
I think the salient problem with that argument is that he has to break the law to prioritize, or break the debt ceiling law somehow. Perhaps its a little fuzzier when there is no budget or CR.
It also assumes that the computer systems are set up to prioritize, which is not necessarily a valid assumption. (There are detailed arguments that I’m too lazy to look up and link that the system is not in fact set up to prioritize, at least not at a fine grained level, and couldn’t be made to do so in a week, particularly on a skeleton staff with no contractors.)
Also, the damage to our economy caused by essentially completely shutting down all the government excepting payments to old people and the military, would be severe, probably worldwide great depression territory.
P. Krugman laid this all out depressingly and starkly a day or three ago. Many paths through this mess could end very badly, with a lot (millions, perhaps 10s or 100s of millions worldwide) of people currently gainfully employed and middle class, losing their jobs and being plunged into poverty.
scav
@dmsilev: “Clap harder! Tinkerbell is dying!” both as political plan and medical proposal at a single swell foop.
Jockey Full of Malbec
@No One of Consequence:
IMO, it should be illegal for any member of Congress to own non-blind stock, for exactly this reason.
Pity that anyone with the spine and character to put such a Bill forth would never be allowed anywhere near the House.
Chris
@John O:
Impeachment, what a joke. Isn’t it the Senate that gets to decide whether the President’s guilty or not? The Senate is Democratic and I doubt if there are enough Blue Dogs to make up the difference. Even if they wait until 2014 and pick up a bunch of seats… it takes a two thirds majority in the Senate to convict. That’s 67 seats. Are even they deluded enough to think they could pick up that many?
Unless, of course, their only goal in all this is to paralyze the government further, and prove their teabagger credentials by showing their constituents and the big money that they’re doing everything they can to remove the Kenyan Usurper. Then it makes sense. But if they’re hoping to actually remove Obama… the chances of that working seem to me to be hovering in close proximity to zero.
The Dangerman
@celticdragonchick:
It’s a backdoor to a balanced budget amendment where the programs that get slashed and gashed are the ones that they’ve wanted to slash and gash since they were instituted (basically, buh-bye EPA, NLRB, and OSHA).
We will not default, but the dance moves that PBO will have to make to keep things afloat will be staggering; in their daydreams, the Righties are envisioning turning President BO into Mr. BO Jangles (and actually firing at his feet to make the N***** dance).
We are in for Dark Days, just in time for the Holiday Shopping Season.
schrodinger's cat
@Chris: CNN will have breathless coverage, with Breaking News every 5 minutes.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ash Can:
Well, you don’t roll out a new advertising campaign in August. Or September. Or October. Or November. Or….
Elizabelle
Today’s NY Times:
As someone commented last night, many people do not understand what the debt ceiling is.
Including the junior Senator from Kentucky.
IowaOldLady
Interesting moments at the gym this morning. Two women I know are Republicans were raving about how both sides do this and we need to get them all out. (Btw, we live in a district represented by a Democrat.) Everyone else kept quiet. I wonder if this is a sign they know something has gone wrong and want to spread the blame.
Villago Delenda Est
@Chris:
They could not get a simple majority to convict Clinton for lying about a blow job. What makes them think that they can get away with even that for the awful crime of Presidentin’ with anger aforethought while Blah?
John O
@Chris:
Oh, I agree it won’t work, won’t even be close, but you now have some idea of how irrational I think the actors on one side have become.
I really believe they’re trapped in their own bubble to that extent. They have an alternate reality for everything. This is not my grandfather’s GOP. And in way, they’re achieving their goals.
The GOP is VERY good at moving the goalposts.
Villago Delenda Est
@Elizabelle:
The junior Senator from Kentucky does not understand a great many things.
I’d recommend The Wealth of Nations to him, but I don’t think he could maintain his interest in it after the first few pages. While it’s pretty readable even by contemporary standards, you have to remember that these are people who can’t grok the moral of Green Eggs and Ham.
Cacti
@Elizabelle:
Magical thinking is the basis of the teabagger world view. America is god’s favorite country, ergo, everything will work out for the best in the end.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@celticdragonchick:
Impeaching when there is no chance of conviction is an act of weakness, not strength. Just because Republicans are stupid enough to do it multiple times doesn’t mean that we should join them in being stupid and counterproductive.
Belafon
@IowaOldLady: When the Republicans I know start doing the “both sides do it” it means they know they have lost the argument, and yet don’t want to completely fault their side. They know the Republicans are wrong on this, but they don’t have the ability to admit it.
feebog
@celticdragonchick:
No, but it could well be the end of the Republican Party, at least this version of it. If they have the nerve to impeach Obama over something they themselves foisted on the country even some of those bastards in “safe” seats would be swept out of office. Gerrymandering can only work go so far. There are enough Republican seats that were won by 52-55 percent in 2012 to give the gavel back to Nancy Smash.
Chris
@IowaOldLady:
“Both sides do it” is what Republicans say when they can no longer say “my side best.” The last refuge of a scoundrel, you might say.
@Villago Delenda Est:
Where the “like” button on this thing?
Elizabelle
You would not get on an airplane if you knew the pilot did not know how to fly, and did not believe in gravity.
The Republicans are trying to force us all into uncharted territory, with the assurance that we should just trust them.
RE those ladies pulling the “both sides” bullshit: I think it might take the president getting up there and stating our situation in sports terms for people to understand.
Simple, declarative English does not work for some people.
JPL
@Morbo: One difference is Fox News would make him a martyr. What do I win?
Cervantes
@Morbo: Keith Ellison, or rather Representative Keith Ellison was arrested at the immigration protest. Was the Representative who lifted the barricade at the WWII memorial arrested?
Eight Representatives were arrested yesterday, not only Ellison. Like you, I wondered why. Turns out they were blocking road traffic.
MomSense
@celticdragonchick:
Clearly the Republicans are creating a constitutional crisis as well as an economic one (dastardly twofer?) so you could very well be right. This whole thing has the feel of how you foment a coup to me. You are much more likely to pull off a coup if you can create instability, economic chaos, etc.
Southern Beale
Yes I do remember people saying that, also that Fox News and Rush Limbaugh were causing a big information bubble problem, that they needed to appeal to women and young voters, etc. And I guess that is why we’re dealing with the issue we have today because what the problem is the Republican Party is imploding and this war which has shut down the govt is really a war within the GOP.
So I hope they figure this shit out soon. Meanwhile, I saw a headline somewhere saying GOP donors are pissed off about the shutdown and trying to pressure the Tea Party into slinking back into their holes. Good luck with that.
On a completely OTHER topic I’m asking y’all’s help with freeping a poll, stupid I know but this stuff matters on local issues. There’s a big gigantic hemorrhoid of a land company trying to build a skyscraper in my backyard and the neighbors are pissed off and fighting it and my local fishwrap has published an online poll asking if people are for it or against it. If you have a sec, please vote in the poll and say you’re against it. Last I checked the nays were 129 votes at 40.5%, with this few votes it won’t take many to get us up to 70 or 80% against.
Here it is and thank you in advance.
Felonius Monk
@Belafon: I left you a reply in the Mayhew thread on ACA.
Yo, Belafon.
JPL
@Southern Beale: done!
schrodinger's cat
@Southern Beale: Their information bubble must be made of Kevlar if they think that defaulting on our debts is a good idea.
Citizen_X
@Bill Arnold:
Well, if Obama has to break the law to prioritize spending after a credit default, then he’s being forced to break the law regardless. So why not just break the debt ceiling law, tell the country it no longer applies, give the Rethugs the finger, and the nation goes on its merry way? Sure, he’ll be impeached (but not convicted), but he’ll be forced into that situation anyway. Might as well be hanged for a lion as a lamb, right?
scav
@Cervantes: So they’re expected to genuflect at a mere sunburst of Traffic law or something?
MomSense
So let’s say we just go through what the Republicans say they want and why they hate ObamaCare to see if we can, by the process of elimination, determine what the motivations may be.
They say they want to delay and/or defund ObamaCare. They can’t actually defund it because it doesn’t come out of discretionary spending so that goal is BS. They say they want to delay it but it has already started. If they wanted to just repeal the provision on the medical equipment tax, they could have done this at any point since the ACA passed. They haven’t.
They say that ObamaCare adds to the deficit but it lowers it. Same with the debt. They say that it takes money out of Medicare but all it really did was stop paying subsidies to insurance companies at 114% of the cost of just offering services as part of the standard Medicare benefit. Then there is the fact that ObamaCare has already added to the solvency of Medicare extending it by more than 8 years. Then you get to the fact that ObamaCare has led to the lowest medical price inflation rates in 50 years so we are already seeing how it is changing the trajectory of medical price inflation tremendously–good news for long term health care costs.
What did I miss?
So what is this really about?
Southern Beale
@schrodinger’s cat:
“Out of control deficits” arrgle barrgle “live within our means” arrrgle barrgle “nation is bankrupt” arrgle barrgle, etc.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Elizabelle:
Actually, Sen. Paul, it’s more like telling the bank you refuse to pay your car loan and then being outraged when they repossess the car. You don’t get to keep all of your shiny new WWII monuments and military airplanes just because you’ve decided you don’t feel like paying for them.
Belafon
@Felonius Monk: So, their argument is that there shouldn’t be any federal subsidies for people who join exchanges set up by the federal government? Considering the law is full of statements on how subsidies are to be calculated, I really don’t see how they would have any room to stand.
Also, once again, to use the Supreme Courts new “do you have standing” standard: How are they going to argue that they are being penalized because additional people are receiving federal money?
I just don’t see their arguments going anywhere.
MomSense
@Patrick:
That’s just it. I don’t think they do like our democratic system, hence all the justifications for voter suppression.
After the 2012 election I heard a lot of tea party and Republican chatter about only allowing people who pay federal income tax to vote because they are the only people with skin in the game.
I really don’t think they are far off from the idea of landed white gentry being the only ones running the joint.
Elizabelle
Think of the beer!
AP story puts the blame squarely on House Republicans —
how refreshing — although you’ll see “arrgh — why can’t the government do anything right?” quotes from small brewery executives.
Elizabelle
@MomSense:
Excellent comment.
You’re not missing anything.
It’s the blind following the dissembling that’s the problem.
celticdragonchick
@Citizen_X:
He explained yesterday why he does not think that the platinum coin of 14th amendment option will work. Anything he does will be under a cloud of legal uncertainty and the markets will treat any such remedy as a band-aid or worse. We would face dumping of t-bills, and people buying them would demand far higher interest because of the uncertainty in their legality.
schrodinger's cat
The debt default is the the Banana Republicans idea of tackling immigration reform. If we default, and that triggers another Great Depression, no one will want to immigrate here, problem solved.
celticdragonchick
@MomSense:
Exactly. If you are not a white reactionary male, you are not entitled to vote as far as many of these nut jobs are concerned.
catclub
@Southern Beale: So you are a NIMBY and proud of it.
My principles say that living in big crowded cities is much better for the ecology than spread out,
so, sorry. Build a bigger city.
Jockey Full of Malbec
@MomSense:
Sweet Jesus Christ on a Fucking Stick, people… there’s not going to be “a coup”.
If I wanted to listen to BS like this, I’d head on over to ZeroHedge.
catclub
@Citizen_X: “then he’s being forced to break the law regardless.”
No he is not. He can follow the law and have the nation default. And only by promising to do that will the GOP and congress do what they have to do. At the last minute. And not before.
MomSense
@Jockey Full of Malbec:
I’m not saying they will be successful, but talk to people who have been through this in other countries. The GOP/Koch extremists are following the coup playbook.
MattF
@catclub: Well, not necessarily. I’ve always lived in urban areas and I believe strongly that urban density is a good thing– but badly designed development that’s not in sync with its surroundings is a bad thing. I know nothing about Southern Beale’s neighborhood, but in fact, there are few urban neighborhoods (outside of Manhattan) where a 22-story building would fit in.
Patricia Kayden
“Do you remember some people saying after the election that Republicans in Congress had to be more moderate and reasonable on immigration otherwise they’d be a permanent minority party?”
I was one of the fools who thought that would be the case. One would think that after losing the minority vote so badly, Republicans would have changed course on immigration. So wrong.
stinger
@MomSense: “So what is this really about?”
The President is black.
Jockey Full of Malbec
@MomSense:
Here is your absolute worst-worst case:
Six-twelve months from now, the military is forced to take over. An Interim government is formed to pay the bills. Free elections some time later. Same Constitution.
(And that’s the total ‘manure flies into rotating coolant device’ scenario, extremely unlikely).
Of course, our credit rating and the global economy are totally tanked by that point. But take some comfort that the 1% stand to lose much, much more than any of us out here in the Peanut Gallery (which is why I still expect a resolution in the next few weeks).
For all their big talk, the Teahaddists are essentially an ignorant horde of elderly cowards. They can never “take over” this country, physically.
Once the pain level seriously starts hitting the bottom line, Rentiers like the Kochs will find themselves in a very lonely place when the other components of the “Rich” class suddenly turn against them.
Lurking Canadian
@gogol’s wife: this solution is so obvious, it would have happened by now if Boehner had the stones for it.
fuckwit
@Cervantes: Because it sounds perfectly white on Tom.
Patricia Kayden
@MomSense:
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
http://swampland.time.com/2013/10/02/congressman-stutzman-he-has-no-idea-what-the-gop-wants/
Suffern ACE
@MomSense:
The taxes to pay for Obamacare did not fall evenly. Rich people are paying for a subsidy to the poor and the middle class has not been brought in on it. The rich would not like to pay and have convinced the middle class to go along with the idea that their taxes have gone up, too.
liberal
@celticdragonchick:
No one has presented any evidence at all that there’s a problem with the coin option. The only thing I’ve heard is that “the Fed has already said it won’t accept it.” Fortunately, AFAIK the Fed by law actually has no choice in the matter.
fuckwit
@MomSense: Here’s the coup I WANT to see: is it really the law that Congress has to vote for someone of their own party for Speaker? Is it legal to call a Speaker election at other times than at the start of a new Congress, i.e. like a Parliamentary “confidence vote”? You see where I’m going?
I would like to see a Speaker election– now– and these 20 or so “sane” R’s to join with the Dems to vote for Nancy Smash.
liberal
@MattF:
Yawn. Higher density has to start somewhere.
fuckwit
@celticdragonchick: This. Something these nerdy platinum-coin dorks need to keep in mind: THE WHOLE ECONOMY, AND ALL CURRENCIES, ARE A CONFIDENCE GAME (and yes, that’s short for a “con”, and it is exactly that). Currencies don’t actually exist. Money is an illusion. The only thing that makes money MONEY, is the confidence people have in it. It’s essentially made of bullshit. So, things that shake or undermine confidence are really serious existential threats to it. A platinum coin scam would, as the President very clearly explained, be a bad idea, because it would exist under a legal cloud that would undermine confidence.
What needs to happen in order to save the economy, is for regular, predictable, stable order to be restored to the system. And, in this case, I think that means removing the R’s from the House in a huge wave in NOvember 2014. Until then, we’re all just holding on for dear life.
John O
I think 2016 is the best we can expect, holding on for dear life-wise.
? Martin
@RaflW:
No it hasn’t. They’re still going to fail hard in 2016. The only pressure on the GOP to do this comes from their own electoral realities.
Captain C
@dmsilev: @dmsilev:
Fixed that for ya, Mr. Will
fuckwit
@MomSense: Depends on who specifically you mean.
For the 1%, it’s about keeping control of their employees, by being able to terrorize them into staying in their jobs, keeping them as indentured servants, for fear of losing their insurance.
For the Rethug elite, it’s about the ideological danger of government actually being able to help people; they can’t stand that, it reinforces Democratic Party messaging.
For the Confederates, it’s about THE SHERRIF IS NEAR!!! It was implemented by a black man, bears his name in its nickname, and would actually help poor minorities get medical care (if it weren’t being blocked by governors in so many Southern states where there are large numbers of poor black folks without insurance).
For the fundamentalists, it’s the mortal terror of no longer being able to extort religious fealty from people in exchange for charity. And, for women having control over their reproductive health… the horror, the horror!
For the catholic clergy, it’s the terror of people having sex and not having babies! Especially women!
For the elites running the insurance corporations themselves, they are already seeing their profits reduced and competition will squeeze their profits even further, and in places like California its possible that non-profit co-ops will take over completely from for-profit corporations at some point in the future.
So there are several different contingents at work here, all with their own reason for hating this law, or even for seeing it as an existential threat.
Trying to figure out where the out-freakage is coming from depends on who specifically you’re talking about; they each have their own reasons.
Birthmarker
Sounds like a DKos fantasy. Same thing was said after O’s election in 2008.
fidelio
Via Gin and Tacos, a short piece about the small, accidental default that took place in the spring of 1979. It cost a lot more to sort out than the value of the T-bills involved.
Here in my office we’re waiting to find out who goes home and who stays.
West of the Rockies
Yes, I do recall such talk (in reference to the original question in this post). I recall a couple days after the ’08 election talk of how the Republican party might right itself, whether it should shift to the center or if it would veer still further right. We have our answer: they are even more conservative than ever and insist that the only true problem is “better messaging”.
We do live in interesting times….
Another Holocene Human
@virginia: Ah, but Central American people are poor, you see, peasants. You hate poor people too, right?
Another Holocene Human
@Tone in DC:
wtf. That kind of thing makes me burn with insane anger. Idk how u keep your cool.
Another Holocene Human
@Elizabelle: It’s worse than that–it imposed slave law on free states, whereas previously in free states you were a citizen, now any villain could clap you in irons, burn your papers and haul you away, just because of the color of your skin. And many did.
This is a classic piece of Boston political theater, foretelling with hyperbole exactly what did result from the Dred Scott decision: http://chnm.gmu.edu/lostmuseum/lm/307/
I don’t have an image of the flyer that went up around the Boston area in 2004 or 2005 stating that the US had now killed as many Afghans as had died in 9/11 so we were now even.
Elizabelle
@Another Holocene Human:
Wow, that’s a wonderful site.
Many thanks. Bookmarked it under “good stuff.”
Maybe some of the artistic among us should do flyers about the dangers of listening to Tea Partiers in the style of your 1851 warning to freedmen about kidnappers in their midst.
West of the Rockies
@Tone in DC: “I’m not a racist, but….” (You know what’s going to follow will reveal much….)