Nelson Mandela died today. I heard him speak in Boston one time…must’ve been around 1990. He was a great man, and everyone who heard him speak that day loved the way he pronounced “Massachusetts.” Rest in peace.
Update: President Obama is scheduled to make a statement in a couple of minutes (5:20). You can watch here.
lamh36
Gin & Tonic
People can learn a lot from his example.
lamh36
CaseyL
Just saw this via News Alert in email. Another Titan, lost.
SiubhanDuinne
A very, very great man. I never had the privilege of hearing him speak in person, but I believe I’m a slightly better human being merely for having spent time on the same planet with him. RIP.
PIGL
Free Nelson Mandela
(sorry about the add….to busy crying to find an alt)
Insomniac
Rest In Peace. A powerful light flickered and died in the world today. We will miss him.
Aji
In our culture, we say that he has “walked on.”
And that’s how I envision him now, walking – running – to greet his ancestors, to sing and dance and rejoice with them, while his memory inspires generations to come.
Chyron HR
@lamh36:
Why didn’t the Racist-in-Chief deliver a statement on the passing of Junior Samples, huh?!
Omnes Omnibus
I know he was 95 and he had lived a pretty rough life, but this is still sad news. If he was suffering though, the suffering is now at an end. The man was a titan. His capacity for forgiveness was amazing.
cmorenc
Mandela could have been bitter and vengeful for all those years spent in harsh confinement, and beyond that, for all the years of harsh oppression imposed upon his people. But instead he chose, with substantial success, to lead his nation out of bitterness and vengefulness.
He accomplished a great many important things, but one tangible international sign of the difference he made was that it would have been unthinkable for South Africa to have hosted the 2010 World Cup had Mandela not been so successful in setting his country in a far better direction than most of the rest of Africa.
ruemara
@Aji: perfect. Just beautiful.
Omnes Omnibus
@PIGL: I was just dialing up that song.
@cmorenc: The 1995 Rugby World Cup in SA was a key to bringing SA back into world sports competition, and Mandela was central in how that worked out.
lamh36
catclub
@Chyron HR: Obama killed him now to distract from African Unclegate. Bookmark it, libs.
Professor
He said he would be president for only one term to calm the tension in South Africa. He left office as he promised.
Hungry Joe
To have spent almost three decades in prison, then become leader of the country and call for peace and reconciliation … it’s hard for me to fathom having that big a heart. South Africa probably would have torn itself to bloody shreds if it weren’t for him. What a great, great man.
scav
Our thanks.
photos from the Guard.
Patricia Kayden
Saw him when he spoke in Toronto. Love the fact that he was always smiling. No bitterness.
Patricia Kayden
@Aji: Beautifully stated.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@lamh36:
Oh, sure, President Obama is going to make a speech about Nelson Mandela. Great. When was the last time he made a speech about a white person who died, huh? Huh? Seems like he only cares about his kind. Most racist president ever! And don’t be giving me examples of white people he gave speeches about when they died, because any example you give won’t count.
In all seriousness, though, I know people don’t live forever, but there are some people who make me feel better just for knowing that they’re alive somewhere. Nelson Mandela was one of those people.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@Hungry Joe:
And the worst part of that is that when he helped bring about the Truth Commissions (I think that was what they were called), even though nobody was going to prosecute any of the whites who brutalized most of the country, even though all they wanted was for some of the oppressors to own up to what they did, still, still, the way the whites shrieked and wailed about what a bad deal they were getting… When I think about that, it makes me want to throw up.
PIGL
@Patricia Kayden: I lived in Toronto that year; I did not see him, but as I was riding about town on my bike for some reason, I saw his limousine and motorcade go by. Even that little, I’ve always kept with me.
He was by far the greatest person of our time.
NotMax
Humanity (n): a species of mammal much concerned about resting in peace yet reticent about living in peace.
rikyrah
Thank you Madiba.
For all you did.
Villago Delenda Est
@lamh36:
That quotation is so right fucking on.
As I said in the last thread, Mandela did what many thought was utterly impossible.
ranchandsyrup
A large % of my FB feed is sharing W’s post (which is kind of nice) about Mandela. The comments to his post are about 10% “Mandela was a Commie!” and “Ghandi did it better without violence”.
Villago Delenda Est
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
As I cautioned Violet this morning, channeling Rush Limbaugh has been scientifically proven to lead to drain bamage.
SiubhanDuinne
Thank you, Betty, for posting the link. I clicked on it literally at the moment President Obama was approaching the microphone. A lovely, personal tribute to a great man. I didn’t even mind the God reference at the end — it seemed very fitting.
Elizabelle
A great man; a privilege to have lived during his times.
And gentle on his family and people to the end. A long decline; gave us time to get used to the idea he was transitioning from this life. Raw pain when he became ill and was hospitalized months ago; we got to let him go month by month.
I’m sorry that he and President Obama did not get to meet again this year, but glad they met at all.
Bubblegum Tate
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
There might be a little of that, but I think we’re going to see more “Nelson Mandela was actually a conservative!” which will piss me right the fuck off.
Aji
@ruemara: I’ve seen strange things in my lifetime in that regard.
I’m surprised to feel such a profound sense of grief and loss myself, at such a personal level, I mean. I never knew him, never met him, never even saw him give a speech in person. But he’s one of those rare people whose influence – his very existence – was so important collectively to the entire world that I suppose it’s natural. And I do feel joy for him now, free of pain and, as I said, dancing with his ancestors once again.
SarahT
Many years ago, when I was teaching pre-school in Brooklyn, the whole school was excused to go outside and join the huge crowds of cheering people to watch Mandela’s motorcade pass by – it really was a glorious sight.
Dee Loralei
What a beautiful human being, one of the greatest ever. And, like the President, my first political action was in protesting Apartheid.
Elizabelle
@Aji:
Mr. Mandela did the best he could during his life; used it well, and his best far exceeded our own.
Courage and grace, and joy in living.
Elizabelle
@Bubblegum Tate:
Just think of the detractors as Afrikaaners, and leave them to their shabbiness.
Better to celebrate the remarkable Mandela; not the small minded.
Baud
@Bubblegum Tate: Apropro to your comment:
PIGL
When I started University in 1976, people were busily posting mimeographed poster full of typescript by the Free South Africa Committee, and I out of ignorance and youthful certainty though to myself “what a bunch of idiots….the whites own the factories and have all the guns, and it ain’t like it’s Rhodesia”.
And a mere 14 years later, I saw Nelson Mandela’s motorcar on the streets of Toronto, in the episode that Patricia Kayden mentioned just now. I was ashamed of myself for not playing some tiny part in that, as some of my friends had done in the 70s, but there is obviously a broader lesson to be learned here.
Jebediah, RBG
I was in South Africa twice when I was a kid. I knew about apartheid, but it was quite something else to see “Whites only” signs on drinking fountains and restrooms, etc. When I got back home I told people that it was both the most beautiful and the ugliest place I had ever been. Mandela fixed an awful lot of ugly.
Patricia Kayden
@Dee Loralei: Mine too. In my college years, I even knew all the words to what has become the South African national anthem because I attended so many anti-apartheid rallies in Toronto. Can’t remember much of it now though.
lamh36
Tom Q
When you look at the horrorshow politics generally is — here lately, of course, but honestly all over the world much of the time — you have to shake your head at the good fortune a country can occasionally have to produce a person of such magnanimity. After all those years in prison, the desire for revenge had to have been coursing through his veins, begging for release. Instead, he offered an example to the world of what a statesman is — forsaking all personal score-settling to make his country whole again. An absolute giant.
janeform
I saw Mandela in Boston as well, Betty, and will always remember it.
Violet
An amazing man. Glad his suffering is at an end but the world is poorer for his loss. May his example be a light for humanity.
Elizabelle
@Tom Q:
Yes, I am glad people get to see a real hero. And he was.
Villago Delenda Est
@Baud:
Right now, busy bees at National Socialist Review are frantically attempting to shove shit like that down the memory holes, in deference to the new “Nelson Mandela represented true Conservatism!” Partei line.
lamh36
Ed Schultz asked Andrea Mitchell, asked if Mandela’s struggle was the same as bill clinton’s. naturally andrea mitchell said “oh of course”
Rolls eyes…SMH…whatever.
Anyway, there has to be something to say about the 1st Black President of the majority White US essentially eulogizing the 1st Black President of the majority Black South African!
Life is very interesting sometimes aint’ it.
Yatsuno
May his next journey be easier than his last one. Baruch Dayan Emet Nelson.
Mnemosyne
It’s not often the world gets to see a truly great man live out his full life, but that’s what we got with Mandela. Too many of the heroes of the anti-apartheid movement didn’t live to see its end.
Tommy
I don’t get emotional over a lot of things. But just heard this news and there are tears rolling down my face. I like to think I am a strong man, but honestly he is a hundred times, a million times the man I am. If I was put through what he was put through I would have broken. I would have been hateful. He was none of those things.
Betty Cracker
@lamh36:
For REAL? Holy cartwheeling Christ.
Aji
@lamh36: Wait, what? You’re joking, right?
I mean, I know they’re both hacks, but how the hell does someone even get from Madiba on this day to . . . Bill Clinton? WTF is wrong with these people?
Jebediah, RBG
@Mnemosyne:
I keep thinking of Biko.
Baud
@lamh36:
What the hell was Bill Clinton’s struggle?
MomSense
He said this in his inaugural address but it applies to his life as well.
Elizabelle
@Mnemosyne:
So true.
I hope we get to talk about and celebrate Nelson Mandela’s life and contributions for days upon days.
Patricia Kayden
@Tommy: It’s okay to be emotional. I expect to shed many tears when they broadcast his funeral.
Jebediah, RBG
@Tommy:
He really was an astounding example of how big a person could be.
Patricia Kayden
@Baud: Not inhaling.
Mnemosyne
@Jebediah, RBG:
Two of the great songs of the 1980s:
“Free Nelson Mandela”
“Biko”
I sometimes have to fast-forward past “Biko” on my iPod because it always makes me cry.
PurpleGirl
@Bubblegum Tate: Mandela the freedom fighter is going to become Mandela the terrorist. Remember St. Ronnie was against any anti-apartheid protests.
Ask anyone at the time what would happen to SA after apartheid ended and the person would have said “a bloody civil war.” Because of Mandela and few other people, that did not happen. Mandela was a different man at different times of his life. He was what was needed. And that was part of his greatest. His spirit will be missed and, hopefully, will become a stronger inspiration to more people.
Mnemosyne
Another live version of “Biko” with better sound.
Jebediah, RBG
@Mnemosyne:
Yup! Right now I’m getting a bit misty just hearing the chorus in my head.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: Well, he did have to shop in the “Husky” section of Sears as a child. Seriously, I like Bill Clinton, and I especially like that he didn’t grow up as a spoiled rich brat like so many of our political class. But I’m astounded those boneheads would compare him to Mandela. Morons.
Elie
@Aji:
Beautiful, Aji…
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
Oh, I’m not blaming Clinton for that comment. It’s our media that’s crap.
scav
Thinking back to those times in college with the demonstrations (which in my case combined with a philosophy class on evil and Amnesty International films on torture) also throws up Ladysmith Black Mambazo. Never managed Mandela, did attend a lecture by Desmond Tutu. Another good and cheerful man.
Bubblegum Tate
@PurpleGirl:
Oh, I know. They hated Mandela, and they gave unending support to the apartheid government. But now, they want to pretend that they didn’t do those things–and they don’t want anybody to know about them, either. “[insert civil rights icon here] was actually a conservative!” has been their go-to strategy for a while now.
That said, you are right, @Elizabelle. Best to just leave them to their shabbiness.
Jebediah, RBG
@PurpleGirl:
But, of course, right-wing terrorists were “the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers.” So many, many reasons that I want to piss on Reagan’s grave.
lamh36
@Betty Cracker: @Baud:
Naw I’m not blaming Clinton. Ed Schultz just IS NOT the right person to cover this.
I’m cringing already to see what Chris Matthews will say.
Ed just seems real uncomfortable and unable to fathom the “turn the other cheek” that Mandela did once out of prison.
I can tell that Shultz wants to harp on the GOP opposition to Mandela back in the day, but TPTB at MSNBC probably told their peeps that it’s not quite the time.
Elie
He has left his corporeal form and life on this planet — but the love in his spirit — his teachings to us and wisdom — will live on in all of us who care about true freedom and justice. He belongs to the ages, yes — to all of us forever..
pseudonymous in nc
I’m wary of the “gentle Nelson meek and mild” take on his life. He was a tough and sharp political operator, and he had to be. He remembered the people and governments that supported the ANC (China, Libya) and didn’t dump them when it was politically expedient from the perspective of those western nations whose governments once regarded the ANC as terrorists.
You don’t lead a national liberation movement then prevent a bloodbath of retribution in the aftermath without some iron in you.
Rest in peace.
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
You are quite right. Still, I can’t help remembering that Margaret Thatcher (among others) considered Mandela a terrorist, and Ronald Reagan (among many others) embraced and supported apartheid. I’m happy that Mandiba outlasted both of them.
Villago Delenda Est
@Betty Cracker:
Well, it was part of a struggle against Villager vermin like Mitchell, so there’s that.
TCG
@lamh36: Conservatives: On the wrong side of history since forever.
Mnemosyne
@scav:
We get Christmas cards from Archbishop Tutu. Well, not us, exactly — they’re addressed to the Anglican bishop who used to live in our apartment and apparently never updated his mailing address when he moved. We’re not quite sure how one sends a change of address card to Archbishop Tutu, though.
ETA: I got worried about the Archbishop after this news, but he’s about 15 years younger than Mandela, so hopefully he has some more good years left ahead of him.
Elizabelle
@lamh36:
At least he has Charlayne Hunter-Gault on. She’s marvelous.
Do you think PBO will go to the funeral? If he wants to, I hope he is able to attend. With his family.
VP Biden is in China this week.
Cermet
A truely great man. The world is a lesser place with his passing away. Did such great work to bring peace to that area of the world after so much blood shead. Amazing man.
maya
@Baud: Wimminz.
Hal
Apparently Paris Hilton tweeted a thanks to Mandela for his I Have a Dream Speech and then deleted.
Betty Cracker
@lamh36: Agreed — it’s not Clinton’s fault that they’re jackasses. And speaking of braying asses, Tweety. You just know he’ll find a way to wedge himself and JFK into the discussion. When is PBO supposed to be on Hardball? Is it today?
Mnemosyne
@lamh36:
FWIW, I’m pretty sure ol’ Bill would have the same, What the fuck are you talking about? reaction the rest of us are.
Villago Delenda Est
@Hal:
I’m calling Poe’s Law on that one.
Tommy
@Jebediah, RBG: Yes it is. I am at my core a wimp. I protest stuff. A time or two I almost got arrested. But if my government told me to stop thinking this or that or they would put me in jail for 27 years, well I would do just want I was told.
Fair Economist
I celebrate his life rather than mourn his passing. He was a true hero with amazing accomplishments, and died peacefully at a very advanced age. We all do what we can, and we all die; he had a great life and a good death.
Omnes Omnibus
@lamh36:
How? What? Huh?
TCG
@SiubhanDuinne: To outlast one’s enemies is the best revenge. Both Thatcher and Reagan lost their minds towards the end. Mandela’s was sound.
Tommy
@Fair Economist: And on MSNBC we are seeing that outside of his house. Songs of joy I think.
Omnes Omnibus
@pseudonymous in nc:
A good point. The fact that he was a fighter and a tough one is part of what makes his post imprisonment path so amazing. Few people could choose what he did – and I wouldn’t blame them for not being able to do it.
maya
@Hal: Well, Paris has had her share of struggles too. Including being the namesake of a city that was under Nazi cruelty and domination for a few years. That’s a heavy burden to go through life with. Couldn’t her parents have named her Heather, Courtney or something less traumatic? Walk a mile in her Christian Louboutin Maralena Flame Sandals before you judge her.
Jay C
@Omnes Omnibus:
To be sure: anti-apartheid fighters didn’t get very far with the sunshine-bunnies-and-flowers approach, and Nelson Mandela was one of the toughest – and went, you could say, the furthest of all. And in the end, I think, the verdict of history will be that he was, in the end, a bigger man than his enemies: and you really can’t say that about a lot of leaders.
RIP
Omnes Omnibus
@maya:
Hers won’t fit me and drag performers bought all the ones in my size.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jay C: OTOH a lot of his enemies were small, small people. The world is a better place for his having lived in it.
RaflW
Some of my first work as a young pup was getting TCU, where I was a student, to address divestment, as the denomination insisted but the university’s board stonewalled claiming “fiduciary responsibility” and “blind trust.”
It was a couple of rewarding years of freaking out the school’s admin. They hadn’t seened organized campus activism since the late 60s. My fav moment was getting a real live ANC member to headline a campus rally (he was a UN observing member, some profs paid his air ticket from NY to attend!)
I’ve longed to visit S Africa ever since.
Rest in peace Mister Madella.
Davis X. Machina
Jesse Helms hated him with a hate as white-hot as a dozen suns.
All by itself that would have made me love the man.
Omnes Omnibus
@Davis X. Machina: Helms, Cheney, Thatcher, Reagan. Sometimes one can judge a person by his enemies.
Patricia Kayden
@Hal: HAHAHAHAHA! Please give her a break — at least she’s trying to be nice.
PsiFighter37
May he rest in peace. A true legend who lived a very full life, even though more than a quarter of it was spent in prison.
pseudonymous in nc
@Jay C:
The verdict of history should be that he was the right person for the task, both in the early 1960s and the early 1990s. It’s a reminder that a big transition is still ahead for South Africa, from a government composed of veterans of the struggle against apartheid to those who have spent more of their adult life in a post-apartheid nation. Who’s going to the right person for that task?
I’m glad that the New Yorker cover pictures the young Mandela.
Darkrose
I was fortunate enough to hear him speak at Oakland Coliseum over 20 years ago. A remarkable man.
Cermet
@RaflW: Very impressive.
Tommy
@Darkrose: I had a high school teacher in the 80s that brought current events into the classroom. He brought my attention to Mandela. I mean we didn’t have the Internet. 24/7 cable news channels. But he liked to bring current events to the classroom and he focused on Mandela for a few days. It was staggering for me, my young mind.
Elie
There is nothing stronger than gentleness in the face of cruelty and aggression. The whole philosophy of non-violence comes from understanding the nature of power — that gentle standing up to it, without fighting back with aggression and hate — ARE what is powerful and that making your opposition be their worst selves to beat you in the end leads to ultimate success. Most of all — MOST OF ALL — being non violent and gentle allows you to keep your cause and the means to achieve it, centered on a strong moral and spiritual base. That centeredness and core values give the people strength to keep standing up or justice — no matter what.
So yes, blessed are the meek… for they shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, at least according to the scriptures in the bible…
Hal
@Villago Delenda Est:
Doh! Fake twitter account. Damn. I never fall for those things. I’m getting old. Time for me to start posting about 9/11 conspiracies.
Drexciya
I’m glad American culture has yet another opportunity to remind us of the virtues of peace, joy, happiness and – most importantly – nonviolence when you and your family have been physically tortured, imprisoned, murdered, displaced and oppressed by an illegitimately empowered demographic. White people have the freedom to be small and vicious without penalty, and when black people smile, suffer through it and overcome, their sainthood should be viewed as not just an example, but the only legitimate exercise of dissent. We’re not just supposed to celebrate him for his accomplishments, we’re supposed to see his mythologized lack of anger and vengeance as the central accomplishment. As the NYT said: “Except for a youthful flirtation with black nationalism, he seemed to have genuinely transcended the racial passions that tore at his country.”
It’s quite an event to see a powerful and moving figure MLK’d in real time. It doesn’t even take much effort, it seems. All you need is a seemingly neverending march of white commentators who apparently always loved him and even helped organize anti-apartheid protests back in the day and then you have them caricature his personality into thinly veiled parables about how oppressed parties would react to their oppression if they were great people. I would love to know how many of those protestors afforded the same level of attention and passion to the issues that blacks in their own country, and I would love anyone reporter who dared to ask. I wish I could ignore the noise and say something more appropriate, but the coverage of this is insufferable and so is much of the commentary. There’s a lot of conditioning and emotional blackmail embedded in how these political narratives are expressed and there’s absolutely nothing non-malicious in either its articulation or its implications. The outrage about some of this should be immediate and it’d be nice if it existed outside of Black Twitter. But alas.
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
May you walk with the Prophets, Mandiba.
MomDoc
I saw him in Atlanta 23 years ago. I was in medical school and one of my classmates and I drove from Nashville at the crack of dawn to try to get in. We didn’t have a plan but we knew we had to hear him speak. We actually found his hotel (by deductive reasoning and following the crowd) and I have a super-fuzzy picture of him getting into his limo waving at the crowd. I also have fuzzy pictures of him speaking at the stadium as well.
I am grateful that we made that split second decision.
R.I.P.
Aji
@Drexciya: Mythologized is right.
Anyone who thinks that Madiba was not also a warrior for his people and their cause is delusional. Just because he espoused forgiveness does not mean that he was weak, which is how the punditocracy have always liked him. Not that he was, but that they liked to pretend that he was, so they could feel good about their own faux idolatry, while not-at-all-subtly trying to draw spurious comparisons between a faux “Nelson Mandela, white America-approved peacenik” and and equally faux “Black America, militant [insert assorted racial slurs here].”
It’s disgusting, but nothing I wouldn’t expect from our corporate media roundheels. Madiba, however, would be ashamed of the lot of ’em.
debbie
I honestly don’t think there’s been a more inspirational person during my lifetime.
Elie
@Drexciya:
But why let the knowledge you have of their cynicism, be what you express here today — instead that in spite of these — there is victory and moving forward under a deep and moral wave that will not be denied. There will always be those who do not see or hear righteousness … don’t let them define your message today
SiubhanDuinne
@lamh36:
Say whut now?
SiubhanDuinne
@Hal:
That’s too perfect. In many ways.
Mnemosyne
@Aji:
He espoused something more difficult than mere forgiveness — in order to receive amnesty for their crimes, people who went in front of the Truth & Reconciliation committee had to admit to everything that they had done. No holding back, no minimizing. Some of them refused to do it, because facing the truth about themselves (even with a promise of amnesty and forgiveness) was just too hard.
SiubhanDuinne
@TCG:
Yeah, hating can do that to you.
Drexciya
@Aji:
Amen.
And it’s not coincidental that it plays to, caters to and serves the anxieties of a presumptively white public. There’s a fear of black strength and black power in American society. There’s a fear of righteous anger and motivated anger that makes racial oppression a central motivation for both the kind of change you seek, how that power is utilized and who you determine as a political antagonist. There’s a fear of black people actually viewing their political oppression as a fight in defense of a dignity and a personhood that was already broadly violated – which is why they often use passivity and non-violence as a moral cudgel. God forbid that black people view themselves as something worthy of defense – and even violent defense.
White people would rather defang central figures that understood that than accept that there’s an anger that justifiably removes their concerns from consideration. As the media (and a gigantic amount of the white public) sees it, the worst thing that can be done is for Mandela to be viewed as a totem of resistance and as a window into what’s possible when that anger is harnessed in ways that restructure and overthrow institutions that consider white presences inherent. Absolutely nothing about this is non-malicious. And regurgitating it requires internalizing a logic of acceptance toward collective abuse. What else am I supposed to read into people celebrating the fact that he was tortured and imprisoned for almost three decades and came out not hating or hitting white people? Joy? Awe?
No. Screw that. It’s pure self-centeredness and the most absurd and passive aggressive kind of self-preservation. If the Great Blacks don’t act that way, you shouldn’t either is all I’m hearing and pretty much all that’s being said. Black passivity is the only lens through which they’re willing to consider our nobility. Why else would we be constantly rewarded with whitewashed representations of people like MLK and John Lewis who are far more than their mythology suggests and who nonetheless get praised first for reacting like statues and saints to being beaten to near death and imprisoned. I’m just done with a lot of this.
Mnemosyne
@Drexciya:
You may want to talk to some people who’ve actually practiced non-violent protest sometime, or at least read the works of Gandhi. They all say it is by far the hardest thing they’ve ever done, because the natural human reaction is to lash out violently when someone hurts you.
What brought peace to South Africa — the Truth and Reconciliation Committee, or necklacing?
SiubhanDuinne
@Hal:
I’m holding out for your crop circles, moon landing, Princess Diana explanations.
And how soon we forget, a mere 50 years + one week. No love for the Grassy Knollists?
Drexciya
@Elie:
Excuse me? I’d really like you to elaborate on this because it was one of your posts that irked me the most. I was just going to do what I usually do and ignore what bothers me here until I read it.
And if I may ask, what’s your ethnicity? I’d like to know what you have on the line when you tell me that the ultimate expression of Christian wonderfulness and strength is to politely ask people who are beating me to please, please, pretty please stop. Particularly when they create a system that makes my bruises the point.
Drexciya
@Mnemosyne:
What exactly do you think you’re responding to with this post? I don’t think I even gave a hint of a suggestion that nonviolent protest was easy.
Aji
@Mnemosyne: Which contradicts nothing I said. My point is that our media don’t give a shit about that. They want a particular type of symbol, and they will distort him and his legacy to fit it.
Drexciya
Actually, disregard both of those last posts. I’m kind of done here. Have fun, folks.
I’ll only engage in defense of other people who are engaging, so please be nice to the folks who have the patience I both lack and have no interest in possessing. I’ll stay out of the thread if you are.
Mnemosyne
@Drexciya:
I’m responding to this (with my own emphasis added):
You seem to deeply, deeply misunderstand the philosophy and purpose of non-violent resistance if you think it’s a means of defense.
Also, you are once again lecturing a Black woman (Elie) about how she’s supposed to feel in order to be properly Black. Just thought I should clue you in prepatory to her ripping your head off.
Drexciya
Uh-huh.
ETA: Btw. I don’t think of it as a means of defense and you’re not understanding my point if you think that’s what I’m saying.
Omnes Omnibus
@Drexciya:
Awe is pretty accurate. I seriously doubt that I could have gone through what Mandela (and many others both in SA and the US) went through and end up with both my sanity and humanity intact. He did.
Mnemosyne
@Aji:
Oh, absolutely. Exactly the same way they denigrate and minimize what nonviolent resistance actually means and the kind of strength it requires.
The only person disagreeing here is the one whose posts always manage to devolve into calling for violent resistance.
SiubhanDuinne
I’ve been prowling through some of the image slide shows of Mandela that various news media are posting. I suppose somewhere there must be a picture of him not smiling — maybe even looking sad, or enraged — but what comes through in the aggregate is the joy and serenity of the man at his core.
Omnes Omnibus
@SiubhanDuinne: Here.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
By the way, let me backtrack a little (and I haven’t re-read the thread yet, so someone has probably already pointed this out): as far as I know, Nelson Mandela was never a proponent of non-violence. In fact, he could have been released from prison earlier if he had agreed to renounce the use of violence, but he refused to make that promise.
What he did stand against was revenge. What he and deKlerk each stood for in their negotiations was essentially a promise that if they managed to negotiate majority (ie black) rule, neither side would seek revenge against the other. The cycle of revenge killing followed by revenge killing would stop.
That was what Mandela stood for: not nonviolence, but an end to the cycle of revenge.
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: Seriously, moderation for linking a photo? FYWP.
Dirk
Those of you using his passing to mock others are missing a key lesson from Nelson Mandela’s life.
Hamba Gahle Tata Madiba
Bill D.
The person I admired the most.
Elie
@Drexciya:
I am a 62 year old black woman. Why am I making you so angry? I wasn’t trying to offend you — just speaking to what I believe about the truth of non-violence. You can of course disagree. I saw a lot of pain in your bitterness and I was affected by it and hoped that you could step from it a little bit — just today — to register the success of non violence — even though the way for sure remains very hard
KS in MA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFW7845XO3g
Rest in peace, great man.
Omnes Omnibus
@Elie: I think, and I presume by even stepping in here, that Drexcliya has been reading a lot of self-congratulatory stuff from white people who went to a few protests in the 80s and think the Free Nelson Mandela by the Special A.K.A. is a fantastic protest song – one for their generation and got sick of it. I plead guilty to being one of those people. We are probably annoying – it is easy to see us as tourists who “cared” because it was fashionable at the time. We never lived anything like the experience of Mandela or, assuming Drexcliya is who he says he is, Drex’s experience. But I can’t, can I? OTOH I don’t think I made a lick of difference by show up at some protests and buying the anti-apartheid albums. I also think that I could not have managed the grace that Mandela did had I lived his life. He was an amazing man. I am just a man. I can be inspired, but I don’t don’t expect to meet the standard Mandela set.
Elie
@Omnes Omnibus:
Ok –I get it — some white people say annoying things or are unaware. So what? How does that stack against the larger meaning of this man’s life and what he stood for? The guy was completely distracted by the least important piece of this — those who did not get it or who opposed freedom and justice. They were overwhelmed by the power of affirmative and positive peaceful justice. Who cares what they others say or do? And by his bitterness, he gives his power to them to shape his mood and reality? What a shame and how profoundly sad that on this day, this day of celebrating this man’s life –he embraces that.
Omnes Omnibus
@Elie: I agree with you. Drexcliya is angry though. From what he has said in past comments, he is black, gay and living in the South. I can see how that would lead to anger. I don’t live with any of that. If I did, I could see being a very angry person. I could see not being willing to accept standard interpretations of things. OTOH, I am a white, male, straight, nominally Christian, multiple degree holding dude, so I will never be able to fully understand Drex’s situation. All I can do is try.
AxelFoley
@Aji:
Beautifully stated, Aji. Glad to see you over here from DKos (I used to lurk there).