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You are here: Home / Economics / C.R.E.A.M. / Tuesday Morning Open Thread

Tuesday Morning Open Thread

by Anne Laurie|  January 14, 20146:03 am| 114 Comments

This post is in: C.R.E.A.M., Open Threads, Both Sides Do It!

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gop sneaking out to try governing sargent
(Ben Sargent via GoComics.com)

Well, the spending bill has been unveiled, and to call it a dog’s breakfast would be a slur on the gustatory fastidiousness of the average street cur. Per the Washington Post:

Congressional negotiators unveiled a $1.1 trillion funding bill late Monday that would ease sharp spending cuts known as the sequester while providing fresh cash for new priorities, including President Obama’s push to expand early-childhood education.

The 1,582-page bill would fully restore cuts to Head Start, partially restore cuts to medical research and job training programs, and finance new programs to combat sexual assault in the military. It would also give all federal workers a 1 percent raise…

The White House and leaders of both parties praised the measure, which would fund federal agencies for the remainder of the fiscal year and end the lingering threat of a government shutdown when the current funding bill expires at midnight Wednesday….

The measure would continue a ban on transferring terrorism detainees at the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to sites in the United States. It would also withhold additional funding for the government of Afghanistan until the country agrees to a new bilateral security agreement. And the measure would ban foreign aid for Libya until Secretary of State John F. Kerry “confirms Libyan cooperation” with ongoing investigations into the Sept. 11, 2012, attack at the U.S. diplomatic outpost in Benghazi.

The measure would also provide new congressional backing for Obama’s strategy of continuing aid to Egypt, despite a law that forbids U.S. military aid to governments that have taken power by military coup, as Egypt’s interim military-backed government did in July.

Several issues regarding gun control are also included in the bill. The legislation restricts the Justice and Homeland Security departments from establishing programs similar to the “Fast and Furious” gun-tracking effort. In response to allegations that the administration has been stockpiling ammunition for use by federal agents, the measure also requires Homeland Security to provide detailed reports on its purchase and use of ammunition….

Further details at the link, and additional notes on ‘winners and losers’ from Ed O’Keefe here.

The NYTimes chooses to look on the bright side:

… The hefty bill, filed in the House on Monday night, neutralized almost all of the 134 policy provisions that House Republicans had hoped to include, with negotiators opting for cooperation over confrontation after the 16-day government shutdown in October…

The compromises may be difficult to accept for conservative Republicans, many of whom campaigned in 2010 vowing never to vote on a phone-book-size bill they have not had time to read. And because many of them will balk, the bill will have to have bipartisan support to pass.

Republican and Democratic leaders said they believed they would easily get majorities in the House and Senate, but not without loud protests from both the right and the left.

Politico‘s conclusion:

… What’s most telling is to compare the numbers now with spending levels six years ago for fiscal 2008 — the last full budget cycle under Obama’s predecessor, President George W. Bush.

Total discretionary spending for 2008 was $1.176 trillion, more than half of which, or $642.1 billion, was designated for the Pentagon and military operations — in Iraq then as well as Afghanistan.

That left $534.4 billion among the 11 other appropriations bills, almost exactly what will be the case now in the 2014 omnibus. The big difference is inflation. And when the Bush dollars are adjusted upward to reflect changes in the cost of living since 2008, it shows that Obama will be left with about 10 percent, or $53 billion, less than his predecessor.

***********
And it’ll all have to be done again, come September! Apart from reminding ourselves that half a loaf is supposed to be better than no bread, what’s on the agenda for the day?

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Previous Post: « Monday Night Open Thread: Who Doesn’t Like John Hodgman?
Next Post: How Not to Do It »

Reader Interactions

114Comments

  1. 1.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    January 14, 2014 at 6:07 am

    And it’ll all have to be done again, come September!

    Yes, but the Obamacare website didn’t work so Tea Party shut down for a GOP midterm win!

  2. 2.

    Mustang Bobby

    January 14, 2014 at 6:12 am

    What, no funding to investigate the IRS and Benghazi? Talk about broken government…

  3. 3.

    OzarkHillbilly

    January 14, 2014 at 6:23 am

    it shows that Obama will be left with about 10 percent, or $53 billion, less than his predecessor.

    Anne? I consider it to be the height of irresponsibility to pass along such loathsome lies unfiltered and without comment. I can see that if I want to learn the Truth(tm) I must visit those staunch defenders of Freedom(tm) and the American Way(tm) Erick (Son of Erick), and Rush (redundant Limb).

  4. 4.

    bemused

    January 14, 2014 at 6:26 am

    I just caught ten minutes of Morning Joe but he may be outdoing himself in jackassery. I do love it when he is desperate to defend Republicans (in this case Christie of course) and their latest spins and his inner total asshole is revealed. I’m almost embarrassed for him.

  5. 5.

    Mustang Bobby

    January 14, 2014 at 6:28 am

    @bemused: It’s hilarious and maddening; it’s like watching a five-year-old with crumbs all over his face categorically deny that he raided the cookie jar. “Oh, look at the kitty!”

  6. 6.

    Baud

    January 14, 2014 at 6:36 am

    @Mustang Bobby:

    Those aren’t crumbs.

  7. 7.

    The Dangerman

    January 14, 2014 at 6:39 am

    …requires Homeland Security to provide detailed reports on its purchase…

    “We’re the Good Guys with Guns…”

    …and use of ammunition…

    …”that stop the Bad Guys with Guns.”

    Dare the NRA to pitch a fit.

  8. 8.

    PsiFighter37

    January 14, 2014 at 6:42 am

    Austerity über alles

  9. 9.

    bemused

    January 14, 2014 at 6:52 am

    It really is. Did you see the segment? I didn’t see the whole segment and I never thought I’d want to want to watch one of Joe’s periodic stubborn child tantrums in entirety but I plan to catch the repeat later. He was so ridiculous that I wasn’t even annoyed, just amazed and laughing at what an ass he made of himself. He employed all the usual rightwing diversion tactics, condescension, Benghazi lies, smugness, IRS lies, Obama comparisons, and something, something about ACA and young liberals living with their parents. It was truly an astonishing display of throwing shit at the wall.

  10. 10.

    Mustang Bobby

    January 14, 2014 at 6:56 am

    @bemused: I’d suggest that he needs a good spanking, but I’m pretty sure he’s into that kind of thing.

  11. 11.

    JPL

    January 14, 2014 at 6:57 am

    @bemused: I just started streaming the show and apparently they are still talking about Christie. The only thing Joe said was that if Christie lied, he’s done. Joe would be the first to mention it was only a little lie and everyone does it, so it doesn’t matter.

  12. 12.

    Baud

    January 14, 2014 at 6:58 am

    @bemused:

    A good reminder that there is no such thing as a reasonable Republican.

  13. 13.

    kdaug

    January 14, 2014 at 7:07 am

    Today I wrap this damn animation.

    No pressure from the client, I’m just tired of looking at it.

  14. 14.

    bemused

    January 14, 2014 at 7:10 am

    @Baud:

    Agree. Joe is no different than those old Republican Fox fan codgers who gather at local cafes every morning to drink coffee and bitch about the same damn things. They all sound just as stupid.

  15. 15.

    bemused

    January 14, 2014 at 7:12 am

    @JPL:

    About an hour ago it was Mika and Joe. Mika kept asking Joe what Benghazi, IRS had to do with Christie scandal.

  16. 16.

    BruceFromOhio

    January 14, 2014 at 7:15 am

    At least this budget story gives the hot air gang something other than Bridge-a-palooza to gasbag about.

    SeaChickens can’t win in East Rutherford, the 12th Man won’t fit on the plane. The AFC Championship is the last real NFL game this season.

    One of my favorite libations will soon be available with Japanese labeling and ownership. So long as they don’t start charging for the stuff in yen, domo arigato.

    @The Dangerman: The black helicopter crew will pitch a fit, though that would happen no matter what the damned thing says.

  17. 17.

    JPL

    January 14, 2014 at 7:20 am

    @bemused: haha… Did Joe have a melt down? I only streamed the show for five minutes because that’s my self imposed limit.

  18. 18.

    TS

    January 14, 2014 at 7:20 am

    @bemused:

    I just caught ten minutes of Morning Joe but he may be outdoing himself in jackassery. I do love it when he is desperate to defend Republicans (in this case Christie of course) and their latest spins and his inner total asshole is revealed. I’m almost embarrassed for him.

    His defense – “Christie is my friend and Benghazi!!!”
    He really did say that the media gave more space to bridgegate than Benghazi, IRS etc. I’ll have some of what he is smoking.

    And did I just hear Sen Manchin talking about learning across the aisle to achieve whatever. When a republican “leans across the aisle” it will be time to walk backwards to China. Manchin should be concentrating on the cleanup in the waterways – his people would be more interested in clean water than this blather

  19. 19.

    Botsplainer

    January 14, 2014 at 7:22 am

    So with this Pasco theater shooting, do those of us who were previously content and secure enough in our masculinity and outward demeanor to go about our business unarmed need to start walking strapped in order to protect ourselves from old white gun nuts who get a faux testosterone boost from their concealed dick extensions?

    I’m seriously considering it. The only thing stopping a good guy with a gun is a better guy with a gun.

  20. 20.

    BruceFromOhio

    January 14, 2014 at 7:28 am

    @Botsplainer: Not in a million years. I’ve wrestled with this since Reagan got shot, and concluded that if I was carrying, I would eventually shoot somebody. Once the bullet leaves the muzzle at velocity, its out of my control, and I cannot fathom that. I’d prefer to use the means at my disposal, or just plain duck.

    “Sure,” goes the counter, “but would that save you in a Columbine or a Newtown?” Hard to say, as some people died, and many lived, so its speculation and little else.

    One that thing that is not speculative: I weary of assholes with guns running the conversation, so having a gun is not the sole solution, I’d be just another asshole on his way to being a statistic.

    YMMV

  21. 21.

    Botsplainer

    January 14, 2014 at 7:37 am

    @BruceFromOhio:

    A few years ago, we had a retired cop vs CCW holder road rage incident. I knew the cop involved; when he was working, he was an unmitigated, lying asshole. The victim suffered brain damage and couldn’t remember the incident, and even though the witnesses pretty clearly stated that the retiree was the aggressor, the investigating agency (the retiree’s former department) cleared him of any potential criminal charges.

    He who shoots first generally seems to win in these events.

  22. 22.

    Aimai

    January 14, 2014 at 7:37 am

    @BruceFromOhio: i am definitely not going to see any movies in florida nextvtime i have to visit my in laws. No kidding.

  23. 23.

    bemused

    January 14, 2014 at 7:39 am

    @TS:

    Is Manchin a “No Labels” guy too. I saw a trio of Manchin, Mark McKinnon and somebody else on the screen.

  24. 24.

    Mustang Bobby

    January 14, 2014 at 7:40 am

    @Botsplainer: Five will get you ten that he uses the Stand Your Ground defense.

  25. 25.

    JPL

    January 14, 2014 at 7:41 am

    @Aimai: A few months ago an argument took place in a theater that I was in. The lady received a text message from a friend in the hospital and after a few unkind words, she moved. My friend and I discussed the fact that we were lucky the guy didn’t have a gun because we would have been caught it the crossfire.

    Thanks for your kind comment last night, btw.

  26. 26.

    NonyNony

    January 14, 2014 at 7:43 am

    @Botsplainer:

    So with this Pasco theater shooting, do those of us who were previously content and secure enough in our masculinity and outward demeanor to go about our business unarmed need to start walking strapped in order to protect ourselves from old white gun nuts who get a faux testosterone boost from their concealed dick extensions?

    Here’s the question you have to ask yourself – “If I’m involved in something stupid like Pasco, and a gun nut whips out his gun and fires at me completely unexpectedly, do I really think that me having a gun will do any good at all?”

    The answer for most sane people will be “no”. Look at the Pasco situation – as a sane person, when would a gun have helped you? The guy with the phone apparently didn’t even have time to duck – you’re not going to get a gun out of a concealed holster in that amount of time. At best you could show your gun and maybe get the guy to back off, but at that point you’re “intimidating” him and who knows how the stand your ground laws will work with that. It may be all you do by carrying the gun is allow your killer to get off scott free without a trial because he was responding to an “armed threat”. Or worse, you may get your gun out and accidentally shoot some innocent bystander because you’re trying to stop the nut with the gun.

    Unless you’re willing to become a raving gun nut yourself and shoot first, there’s no point in carrying a gun around on your person. If you live in an area so dangerous that you’re afraid for your life, you should probably move to somewhere safer. If you’re area is mostly fine but you’re afraid of a Pasco situation, well, having a gun on your person isn’t going to help with it because you’re dealing with a nutter, and the nutter will always outcrazy you because that’s what nutters do.

  27. 27.

    bemused

    January 14, 2014 at 7:43 am

    @JPL:

    If the pouty look on his face as he starts talking slower to Mika as if she is too stupid to understand how Benghazi and everything else Obama related are just the same as Christie scandal qualifies as a meltdown.

  28. 28.

    WereBear

    January 14, 2014 at 7:46 am

    A fan alerted me to this Youtube channel for cats:

    Videos for your cat

    And it’s some fine stuff! Tristan has become entranced.

    Though I can see a certain subject restriction; it’s heavy on fish, and not enough small rodents. But that’s genre for you.

    After all, Tristan watched The Manster with us the other night. A classic!

  29. 29.

    Bobby Thomson

    January 14, 2014 at 7:46 am

    @BruceFromOhio: The person you are most likely to kill, statistically speaking, is yourself, because it makes it very easy to do so in a moment of turmoil.
    The next people you are most likely to kill, statistically speaking, are family members and other loved ones, because they are the ones you spend the most time with (leaving out the possibility of one of them having access to it and killing herself, you, or a friend, accidentally or otherwise).
    I just keep nunchaku around for home defense.

  30. 30.

    Ash Can

    January 14, 2014 at 7:47 am

    @BruceFromOhio: I think women need to start arming themselves and start Standing Their Ground against guys who make unwanted passes at them. And folks of color should start arming themselves too, just to exercise their precious Second Amendment rights.

    We’d see the conversation on guns in this country change dramatically. Overnight.

  31. 31.

    Botsplainer

    January 14, 2014 at 7:48 am

    @Mustang Bobby:

    Apparently, some popcorn was derisively thrown at this masculine manly man; such insults must be avenged.

    He’ll be acquitted – you watch. It seems that the victim was spot in in his scorn of the cowardly fuck.

  32. 32.

    Baud

    January 14, 2014 at 7:48 am

    @BruceFromOhio:

    If Reagan had been packing heat, he never would have gotten shot.

  33. 33.

    raven

    January 14, 2014 at 7:50 am

    @bemused: She’s no victim.

  34. 34.

    Baud

    January 14, 2014 at 7:51 am

    @Ash Can:

    Except those people would be charged and they wouldn’t be acquitted.

  35. 35.

    Elizabelle

    January 14, 2014 at 7:57 am

    Stand your movie seat.

    The shooter was a retired police captain. Tampa Police Department. Someone who’d been extensively trained on the use of firearms, one would think.

    The shootee claims to have been texting his 3-year old daughter.

    Neither seems to have much self-control.

    You have to love that no one in that theater ever got to see “Lone Survivor.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/14/us/florida-man-is-shot-to-death-for-texting-during-movie-previews.html?hp&_r=0

  36. 36.

    MikeJ

    January 14, 2014 at 7:59 am

    @Botsplainer:

    He’ll be acquitted – you watch.

    No way he’ll be acquitted. He won’t be charged. He’s an ex-cop. Ain’t no way they’re going to try him.

  37. 37.

    bemused

    January 14, 2014 at 8:00 am

    @raven:

    Nope, not with her fat paycheck.

  38. 38.

    MikeJ

    January 14, 2014 at 8:01 am

    @Elizabelle:

    The shootee claims to have been texting his 3-year old daughter.

    Neither seems to have much self-control.

    It was during the trailers. I don’t see that you’re required to “exercise self control” during ads.

  39. 39.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 8:01 am

    @Ash Can:

    We’d see the conversation on guns in this country change dramatically. Overnight.

    Nice thought, but here’s what the actual first-order outcome would be: even more accidental/unintended shootings.

  40. 40.

    Elizabelle

    January 14, 2014 at 8:02 am

    @Botsplainer:

    Yeah, but the victim’s also dead, and a 3-year old daughter is without her father.

    I’m wondering if the cop will claim early stage dementia or PTSD or something.

    And I’m wondering if the fact that movie previews — which were playing — are usually louder than the film, faster, and for violent fare to come, might have served as mood enhancer for this crazy ass shooter.

    Takeaway for me is that it can save one’s life to de-escalate a situation. The victim realized he was dealing with a crazy person, or someone with anger management problems. In Florida and elsewhere, assume the jerk might be armed.

    Not blaming the victim, but the victim did not do himself any favors here.

  41. 41.

    PurpleGirl

    January 14, 2014 at 8:02 am

    @WereBear: Do you have a iPad so Tristan can play the mouse chasing video game? I think that kind of game is hilarious.

  42. 42.

    Elizabelle

    January 14, 2014 at 8:04 am

    @MikeJ:

    That is a good point. Speaking for myself, though, I would have stopped as soon as asked. Or gotten up and texted from outside the theater.

    (You can be passive aggressive with moving in and out of your seat and making people move as you exit and enter the row. They won’t blame you. They’ll blame the “hall monitor.”)

  43. 43.

    Tommy

    January 14, 2014 at 8:05 am

    @MikeJ: He is a freaking retired cop.

    Look I HATE folks at a movie doing this shit, but my god in what world do you shot somebody? I mean I can’t even wrap my mind around why I’d bring a gun to a movie theater. We live in fucking strange times.

  44. 44.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 8:05 am

    @MikeJ:

    No way he’ll be acquitted. He won’t be charged. He’s an ex-cop. Ain’t no way they’re going to try him.

    If you read the article, you’ll find that they’ve already charged him — with murder in the second degree.

    Will they drop the charges? I have no idea.

  45. 45.

    Betty Cracker

    January 14, 2014 at 8:07 am

    @Elizabelle: I live in that same media market, and local sources say the victim and his wife had taken the day off for a “date” after leaving their toddler with a sitter. The husband or the wife (it’s not clear which) was texting the sitter during the previews to let them know they’d have the phone off when the film started, and it escalated when the cop told them to put the phone away.

    I don’t doubt for a second the victim got all macho with the retired cop. Maybe he was an aggressive asshole, maybe he was the nicest, most rational guy in the world; I don’t know. Witnesses said someone threw popcorn, and that’s when the ex-cop pulled out his gun and blew the guy away. So I guess he was standing his fucking ground over the deadly threat posed by flying popcorn, which claims so many lives each year.

  46. 46.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 8:07 am

    @Tommy:

    I mean I can’t even wrap my mind around why I’d bring a gun to a movie theater. We live in fucking strange times.

    We live in a sick, dysfunctional society — and the NRA likes it that way.

  47. 47.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 8:08 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    I don’t doubt for a second the victim got all macho with the retired cop.

    Really?

  48. 48.

    OzarkHillbilly

    January 14, 2014 at 8:08 am

    @Botsplainer: As a long time gun owner let me answer this question for you: No. Or, as a law enforcement buddy of mine who refuses to carry off duty likes to say: “Hell no!”

    @Ash Can:

    I think women need to start arming themselves and start Standing Their Ground against guys who make unwanted passes at them. And folks of color should start arming themselves too, just to exercise their precious Second Amendment rights.

    There is a black woman in Florida who found out the hard way what happens to blacks and females when they “stand their ground”

  49. 49.

    PurpleGirl

    January 14, 2014 at 8:10 am

    @Cervantes: The one time that gun nuts put up with controls in California was when Black Panthers were seen walking around with rifles. Reagan probably couldn’t have sign legislation fast enough.

  50. 50.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 8:10 am

    Anne Laurie:

    To call it a dog’s breakfast would be a slur on the gustatory fastidiousness of the average street cur.

    Why do you say that?

  51. 51.

    Ash Can

    January 14, 2014 at 8:11 am

    @Baud: They wouldn’t even have to shoot anyone. All it would take is a few well-placed news items on women buying handguns because they’re tired of the threats and assaults, and on inner-city community groups organizing gun clubs ostensibly to adopt the gun nuts’ credo that the way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun, and we’d have the biggest mass pants-wetting this nation has ever seen.

  52. 52.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 8:11 am

    @PurpleGirl: That was a long, long time ago.

  53. 53.

    Tommy

    January 14, 2014 at 8:12 am

    @Cervantes: I was always taught to “walk away.” I at times can be a “dick” but I always walk away and don’t usually get engaged in a fight. I mean it never happens. If I was so pissed in a movie theater I would have just got up and walked away. Went and got another seat. It isn’t worth my time and/or effort to get in a fight over popcorn or somebody texting.

  54. 54.

    OzarkHillbilly

    January 14, 2014 at 8:14 am

    @Cervantes: I don’t doubt it either. The stupid does not only belong to those with guns, it is just that those with guns tend to make irreversible mistakes.

  55. 55.

    Elizabelle

    January 14, 2014 at 8:14 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    Thanks. Literally all that I saw was the NYTimes wire service story.

    Tragedy, but one that hopefully some people can learn from.

    And I hope they nail that retired cop to the wall as an example to others.

  56. 56.

    satby

    January 14, 2014 at 8:14 am

    @MikeJ: He was already charged with murder according to the link.

  57. 57.

    PurpleGirl

    January 14, 2014 at 8:15 am

    @Cervantes: Yes, it was a long time ago but I think the basic thinking still applies.

  58. 58.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 8:16 am

    @Elizabelle:

    You have to love that no one in that theater ever got to see “Lone Survivor.”

    Yes, that’s the one amusing thing about this episode.

  59. 59.

    aimai

    January 14, 2014 at 8:18 am

    @Elizabelle: I don’t even know how you put “self control” down as a category when one person was texting during the advertisements (which many people use as a time to get up, change seats, find seats, drink and chew noisily, call to their friends etc…) and the other one killed him. Talk about your bizarre false equivalences.

  60. 60.

    Tommy

    January 14, 2014 at 8:18 am

    My state is freaking out (at least according to the local news). We were like the last state to issue a concealed carry permit (via a Supreme Court ruling). Local law enforcement agencies are freaking out. Saying they can’t vet all the folks that want one. Something like 1,000 per day.

    I live in a place (southern Illinois) where guns and hunting is a way of life. Everybody I know has a lot of guns. I don’t know a single person that wants the right to carry a gun into say a movie theater.

    I so wish folks like myself, that doesn’t like nor own guns, could get with folks that like to use them to hunt, and have some sane laws.

  61. 61.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 8:18 am

    @Tommy:

    If I was so pissed in a movie theater I would have just got up and walked away. Went and got another seat.

    Bear in mind, this was a matinée showing. Probably more than 70% of the seats were empty. That’s how demented this “ex-cop” is.

  62. 62.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    January 14, 2014 at 8:18 am

    @raven: Damn You raven, taking about speech recognition on your Mac. I had to try it on my Windoze machine. Managed to get it to work with my old Bluetooth headset that I used to use on my old dumb phone. Pretty slick.

  63. 63.

    Elizabelle

    January 14, 2014 at 8:22 am

    Tampa Bay Tribune:

    The Oulsons were sitting in front of Reeves and his wife, and Chad Oulson was texting as they waited for the movie to begin, the sheriff’s office said. Detectives said Reeves asked Oulson several times to stop.

    Reeves eventually left the theater to complain to staff. When he returned, Oulson asked if Reeves had reported him to management, the sheriff’s office said.

    The two began to argue and Reeves pulled out a gun and shot Oulson in the chest, the sheriff’s office reported. Nicole Oulson put her hand in front of her husband as the shot was fired, and the same bullet struck both of them, the sheriff’s office reported.

    After the shooting, Reeves put the gun, a .380-caliber handgun, in his lap. An off-duty Sumter County sheriff’s deputy who had come to see the movie secured the gun and detained him, the sheriff’s office reported.

    Tribune says there were about 25 people in the theatre (ie. lots of empty seats). Two off-duty nurses attended Chad Oulson, who was heard to say “I can’t believe I got shot.”

  64. 64.

    Botsplainer

    January 14, 2014 at 8:22 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    @Cervantes: I don’t doubt it either. The stupid does not only belong to those with guns, it is just that those with guns tend to make irreversible mistakes.

    My position is that it also tends to make them more aggressive in daily, routine interactions with the public at large. A gun nut at a Starbucks is more likely to be an asshole to the person ordering ahead of him for being too slow, or to the barista for miscounting change. If you bump his cart at the grocery, the physical security of having a sidearm will lead him to be more vocal about the bump.

    It escalates petty conflict.

    I suspect that this is ingrained in us as primates, hence there has to be great national will to proceed as society and to remove the escalator from the equation.

  65. 65.

    aimai

    January 14, 2014 at 8:23 am

    @Ash Can: No we wouldn’t.

    1) Every time this comes up in comments someone who is actually black, which I”m not, feels forced to point out that black men, especially, take risks every day that online commenters don’t take just by walking, talking, breathing, driving, in public. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind that a public arming of AA men in this country would lead to mass crackdowns, shootings, and incarcerations of black men but would leave the gun laws which favor white hysteria completely untouched. Chicago and its violence as well as its gun laws are routinely used by right wingers as proof that lax gun laws are necessary for white people to protect themselves from black people. De facto segregation in this country, as well as a psychic split between urban and rural, means that AA gun ownership is considered a “problem” by white legislators only for compromised race traitors and black people who live in cities.

    2) Even white misogynists aren’t worried about the little ladies buying guns. They really aren’t. And they never will be. The same cloak of impermeability which gun nuts think falls over them when they handle their own guns, or store guns in their own homes, or drink and hold guns, covers them when they think that women might be armed. In fact gun nuts have routinely advised the women in their lives to own guns in order to shoot “the other/the bad guy” who is always assumed to be lurking around the corner.

  66. 66.

    Tommy

    January 14, 2014 at 8:24 am

    @Cervantes: I am a huge tech nerd, but I am also getting older and things like texting and talking on a cell phone piss me off. I mean I am getting to the point I fear I might yell “get off my lawn.” But the rage I feel, well I don’t see the need to express it to other people. I can’t even imagine pulling out a gun and using it.

  67. 67.

    Elizabelle

    January 14, 2014 at 8:24 am

    Tampa Bay Tribune re the shooter:

    Reeves retired from the Tampa Police Department on Sept. 30, 1993, and does not appear to have had any contact with the department since his retirement, said police spokeswoman Laura McElroy. Reeves was instrumental in establishing the department’s Tactical Response Team, she said. His son, Mathew Reeves, works for the department as a patrol officer.

    Reeves also served as director of security at Busch Gardens, a position he left in 2005.

  68. 68.

    Botsplainer

    January 14, 2014 at 8:30 am

    @Elizabelle:

    And I hope they nail that retired cop to the wall as an example to others.

    That’s the problem. That metaphorical wall is continually left unadorned.

  69. 69.

    Mustang Bobby

    January 14, 2014 at 8:30 am

    @Botsplainer: So they’re going to start selling Cracker Jack with a Glock as the surprise inside?

  70. 70.

    Botsplainer

    January 14, 2014 at 8:34 am

    @Mustang Bobby:

    I’m thinking a theater gun rental concession could be a moneymaker. Say 10 bucks a pistol. Have lots of better guys with guns there in order to give pause to the good guys with guns.

  71. 71.

    JPL

    January 14, 2014 at 8:36 am

    If you can’t trust a good guy with a gun, who can you trust?

  72. 72.

    OzarkHillbilly

    January 14, 2014 at 8:36 am

    @Botsplainer:

    My position is that it also tends to make them more aggressive in daily, routine interactions

    There have actually been studies showing this to be true. Can’t find a link tho. Sorry.

  73. 73.

    Elizabelle

    January 14, 2014 at 8:39 am

    @Botsplainer:

    I look forward to the widow and her small daughter taking all of shooter Reeves’ police pension (and most of his other worldly assets, going forward) from a civil suit.

  74. 74.

    Omnes Omnibus

    January 14, 2014 at 8:47 am

    @Elizabelle:

    I look forward to the widow and her small daughter taking all of shooter Reeves’ police pension (and most of his other worldly assets, going forward) from a civil suit.

    Probably not going to get his pension. Pensions, as a general rule, are protected from seizure by creditors – including winning plaintiffs. My guess is Florida, being home to many retirees, has particularly strong rules on that score.

  75. 75.

    Aji

    January 14, 2014 at 8:47 am

    @TS: When a Republican leans across the aisle, it’ll be to punch his dirty fucking hippie Dem counterpart in the face.

    Also, too, nice apparent-but-not-really typo in the first sentence. Methinks Manchin’s been doing more than a little too much “learning across the aisle” already.

  76. 76.

    aimai

    January 14, 2014 at 8:48 am

    @Cervantes: Yeah, I agree with Cervantes, I doubt anyone got “macho”–I saw a picture of the family with the three year old, if it had been me (and it has been me when I was off on a date night with my spouse) I’d have been exasperated more than anything. But we still would have gotten shot. Because a 71 year old who is armed all the time, even in a movie theater?, he’s an asshole spoiling for a fight.

  77. 77.

    Betty Cracker

    January 14, 2014 at 8:52 am

    @Cervantes: Yeah, really. On my planet, people (especially men) often react to confrontation with macho displays. It doesn’t mean they deserve to get shot for it, but if the victim said something like, “Oh yeah? Well, fuck YOU, old man!” and threw a bucket of popcorn in the shooter’s face, I would not find that shocking or unprecedented behavior in a human being. YMMV. What is shocking and deplorable and worthy of severe punishment is pulling a gun in response.

  78. 78.

    Elizabelle

    January 14, 2014 at 8:56 am

    @aimai:

    From the CNN story, it sounds like the shooter went to complain to management, who declined to intervene. He came back spoiling even more for a fight.

    As a male moviegoer texted, the man seated behind him objected, and asked the texter to put his phone away.

    They argued several times, according to police and witnesses, and the man who was texting watched as the other man walked out of the theater. Curtis Reeves, a retired police officer, apparently went seeking a theater employee to complain about the texting, police said.

    Two seats away Charles Cummings and his son watched the squabbling.

    When Reeves returned, he was without a manager.

    “He came back very irritated,” Cummings said.

    The man who had been texting, Chad Oulson, got up and turned to Reeves to ask him if he had gone to tell on him for his texting. Oulson reportedly said, in effect: I was just sending a message to my young daughter.

    Voices were raised. Popcorn was thrown. And then came something unimaginable — except maybe in a movie. A gun shot.

    Problem is, it’s getting less unimaginable by the day.

  79. 79.

    Ash Can

    January 14, 2014 at 8:57 am

    @aimai: In all seriousness, I really do wonder where our “white men are the good guys with the guns, and they do the shooting, and everyone else has to just shut up and take it” society will end up. There are already some states (including FL) to which I refuse to take my son, and will be telling him to avoid once he’s old enough to travel on his own. And now, as Tommy has said, Illinois has had concealed carry forced upon it. That will make downtown Chicago riskier due to suburbanites who are afraid of their own shadows arming themselves for trips to the big, bad city. I do wonder if the conversation will ever change, or if this country will just gradually descend into chaos — or even if foreign powers will intervene at some distant point to stop a complete disintegration.

  80. 80.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 8:58 am

    @PurpleGirl:

    The one time that gun nuts put up with controls in California was when Black Panthers were seen walking around with rifles. Reagan probably couldn’t have sign legislation fast enough.

    Yes, it was a long time ago but I think the basic thinking still applies.

    It was a very long time ago. Legislator Don Mulford was a Republican. His bill, crafted with the help of the NRA, was intended to repeal a law that allowed the open carrying of loaded guns in public places. The Black Panthers objected to the bill — it was aimed squarely at them — and, in protest, staged a march in Sacramento, even going so far as to take their rifles and shotguns into the State Capitol. They were ejected. Reagan signed the bill into law. The NRA went on to write/sponsor similar legislation in other states.

    Is it your perception that we could have the same thing happen now? Someone should try. I’ll be overjoyed if it turns out you’re right.

  81. 81.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 9:01 am

    @Botsplainer:

    I’m thinking a theater gun rental concession could be a moneymaker.

    Your entrepreneurial instinct is impressive.

  82. 82.

    Butch

    January 14, 2014 at 9:05 am

    A 1 percent raise means you’re falling behind in real terms, and my company is a federal contractor, so I guess I know what I can look forward to.

  83. 83.

    OzarkHillbilly

    January 14, 2014 at 9:06 am

    @aimai:

    I doubt anyone got “macho”–I saw a picture of the family with the three year old,

    Pictures can be deceiving as can people you’ve just met.

  84. 84.

    Tommy

    January 14, 2014 at 9:11 am

    @Ash Can: And it was forced on us. I know more moderate Republicans then liberals (heck all of my family) and I don’t know a single person that was like “hey we need to be able to carry a gun into Wal-mart. One of the reasons I am as pro-gun as I am even though I don’t own one and never will, is the folks I know that own guns are about the most intelligent and rational folks I know. I’ve asked and not a single one of them would ever want to carry a gun in public. Many reasons, but it is just a stupid idea to them (and me).

  85. 85.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 9:13 am

    @aimai:

    There is no doubt in anyone’s mind that a public arming of AA men in this country would lead to mass crackdowns, shootings, and incarcerations of black men but would leave the gun laws which favor white hysteria completely untouched.

    I do wonder what the difference is between urban gangs and “inner-city gun clubs.”

  86. 86.

    Tommy

    January 14, 2014 at 9:17 am

    Hey Raven. I saw you last comment to mind in another thread about your shoulder surgery. Around two years ago I broke my collar bone and dislocated my shoulder (got hit by a car on my mountain bike). I didn’t think it was that serious of a thing. I was really wrong. It was very serious and took a lot of time to heal. IMHO your shoulder is not something to mess around with. I am back to 100% but it took a little effort and rehab to get there.

  87. 87.

    WereBear

    January 14, 2014 at 9:18 am

    @PurpleGirl: No, I have a iPod touch though, and he went so nuts over Koi Pond that I had to take it away from him.

    Now that he’s older, he’s pretty good with the Chromebook, and that is not a touch screen.

  88. 88.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 9:20 am

    @aimai:

    Yeah, I agree with Cervantes, I doubt anyone got “macho”

    Well, Betty Cracker wrote that she does not “doubt for a second the victim got all macho with the retired cop.” I was just amazed at how absolutely sure she seemed.

    Me these days, I’m not even sure what day of the week it is. And as for the late Chad Oulson, I have no idea what his demeanor was.

  89. 89.

    aimai

    January 14, 2014 at 9:24 am

    @Tommy: You don’t know everyone in your social circle who owns a gun, and people who are intelligent and rational and own guns have friends and family and children who aren’t. I’ve really stopped caring about the “good gun owners.” I mean, I get it, there are lots. Just like all the car owners I know are good people. But we still have laws against drinking and driving, for example. There’s nothing about guns or gun owners that should put them outside the bounds of common sense regulation and, of course,the incredible danger that modern guns put your family and neighbors in, means that guns and owners should be more strictly regulated, not less.

    Its insane to me that the qualifications for owning a gun, and maintaining ownership, aren’t stricter and that people can regain ownership and control of guns after committing obvious breaches of public security/good sense like being publicly drunk, domestic violence, dementia, etc… People in this country can’t get a goddamned job when they have a bad credit rating but can own as many guns as they want, and carry them in public.

    There’s just no excuse for the power of the gun lobby except that the fucking “good people” who own guns are more concerned with their petty privilege than the lives of countless other people.

  90. 90.

    Betty Cracker

    January 14, 2014 at 9:29 am

    @Cervantes: Oh come on — that’s not all I said. Here’s the quote WITH THE CONTEXT:

    I don’t doubt for a second the victim got all macho with the retired cop. Maybe he was an aggressive asshole, maybe he was the nicest, most rational guy in the world; I don’t know. Witnesses said someone threw popcorn, and that’s when the ex-cop pulled out his gun and blew the guy away. So I guess he was standing his fucking ground over the deadly threat posed by flying popcorn, which claims so many lives each year.

    My point is, even if the guy blew up at the busybody cop (which would not surprise me — people do that kind of thing, you know!), it’s ridiculous and horrible that the cop responded with gunfire. That’s all I meant. I’m not sure why you’re trying to make it sound like I’m defaming the character of the deceased. I’m not.

  91. 91.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 9:30 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    Yeah, really. On my planet, people (especially men) often react to confrontation with macho displays.

    OK, now you’ve got me interested in your planet again. To you, is there a spectrum of human behavior between (1) obediently putting away the phone in silence and (2) getting “all macho”? Would you not expect to see some sort of intermediate response from the texter? You “don’t doubt for a second” that he went “all macho”?

    What is shocking and deplorable and worthy of severe punishment is pulling a gun in response.

    No question.

  92. 92.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 9:31 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    I’m not sure why you’re trying to make it sound like I’m defaming the character of the deceased.

    Not what I’m doing — just trying to understand your statement of absolute certainty, that’s all.

    My point is, even if the guy blew up at the busybody cop […], it’s ridiculous and horrible that the cop responded with gunfire. That’s all I meant.

    Sure, I agree with this.

  93. 93.

    Tommy

    January 14, 2014 at 9:32 am

    @aimai: That is true. I am something of a foodie and love wild game. I’ve asked to go hunting with friends and family members and they refuse to take me, cause well I don’t know anything about guns. I’ve fired a small gauge shotgun once. Not my cup of tea. They tell me, and give me phone numbers, of places I can go and take a gun safety course.

    Those are the gun owners I know.

    They would also kind of agree with you (and me) that basic gun safety is key. That you should have to register and show a small amount of both respect and knowledge of how a gun works. I don’t find that is asking much and neither do they.

    Again we are anal about this shit. Heck I have a gun permit, but own NO guns. My father does, and he wants to ensure when he passes away I can legally take his guns. I’ve noted that if he passed away that was the least of my concerns, but alas we follow the laws. It ain’t really that complex.

  94. 94.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 9:36 am

    @aimai:

    There’s nothing about guns or gun owners that should put them outside the bounds of common sense regulation and, of course,the incredible danger that modern guns put your family and neighbors in, means that guns and owners should be more strictly regulated, not less.

    I agree with you but “they” will say that your views emasculate the Second Amendment.

  95. 95.

    Elizabelle

    January 14, 2014 at 9:37 am

    @Cervantes:

    And as for the late Chad Oulson, I have no idea what his demeanor was.

    Today, we know it is permanently still and refrigerated.

    Shooter former police captain Reeves will be arraigned Tuesday afternoon for second degree murder, about the same time of day he was sitting in a movie theatre with his trusty weapon and his wife on Monday.

    Florida is Florida, but this could have happened anywhere.

    The US of A is awash of guns and, just as we drive defensively, we have to live defensively too.

    That anger management case might have a weapon. In fact, since he is an anger management case, he is more likely to have a weapon. You have to conclude that. For your own safety.

    Mr. Oulson would probably give anything to be able to get up and move to another seat today, even if he was there first and loves the view he had. He had an angry jerk behind him. In Florida.

    And once all of us get tired enough of getting pushed around by jerks with guns, or jerks we think might be carrying guns, maybe some of us will wise up and stop voting in the NRA and gun industry enablers.

    Maybe we can tell stores, restaurants and even libraries (in Kansas) that we will not use them if they allow guns on the premises. 56% of people in Kansas do not prefer concealed weapons allowed everywhere.

    It’s insane that gun background checks did not pass when 90% of the country supported same.

    And everyone goes: oh well. What can you do?

    Ask your book of faces buds what they could have done in that theatre. It’s almost too late, at that point.

  96. 96.

    Ash Can

    January 14, 2014 at 9:42 am

    @Tommy: I’m surrounded by guns in the neighborhood where I live, and it doesn’t bother me in the least– I live in a neighborhood where a lot of cops live, and I know they’re all well trained in the safe and effective use and handling of their weapons. Moreover, I know a lot of these cops personally, and they all have kids themselves, so they’re extra careful. Sure, we impressed upon our son, from an early age on, the fact that if he’s ever at anyone’s house and even sees a gun — other than in the hands of the law-enforcement parent-owner taking it to work or bringing it home from work — he’s to leave the premises immediately and come straight home. But the guns in my neighborhood don’t worry me. It’s the morons in the suburbs, who are scared of the city because all they know of it are the sensationalized crime reports they see on TV, who worry me. They’re the ones who are going to be getting the CC permits, so that they can bring their guns to the city and feel “safe.” They’ll also be the ones whipping their guns out at the first sign of what they think is trouble — and you can bet that the “trouble” will be someone such as a dark-skinned tourist out with his family who approaches them to ask directions to somewhere.

  97. 97.

    Betty Cracker

    January 14, 2014 at 9:43 am

    @Cervantes: You’re helpfully demonstrating one of the many points along the human-behavior-in-response-to-confrontation spectrum right now: Smug condescension.

    That’s not an criticism, by the way — I find smug condescension very useful myself! It is but one of many points along the continuum, which for normal human beings seems to range between “servile obedience” at one end and “five in the snot locker” at the other. (For gun nuts, replace “five in the snot locker” with “a slug in the chest.”)

    Other points include (but are not limited to) “polite refusal,” “raised voices,” “wagging fingers,” “verbal threats” and “pushing and shoving” before reaching the fisticuffs stage. I’ve witnessed public confrontations between strangers over trivial matters that have included all of these elements. Unfortunately, the SYG law practically guarantees that what would have once been a brief scuffle at worst now has the potential to escalate to a murder.

  98. 98.

    Elizabelle

    January 14, 2014 at 9:45 am

    I have to head out, but this case is likely to be awful. You might have a retired cop with a weapon and dementia.

    Which makes you — and makes all the other skeered old codgers — more paranoid and more likely to fire a gun.

  99. 99.

    Tommy

    January 14, 2014 at 9:46 am

    @Elizabelle: As I mentioned I think my state was the last to allow concealed carry (Illinoiis). Forced on us by the Supreme Court. I think the polls were 73% against. Look it ain’t rocket science to get a gun if you want a gun. Pretty easy actually. You just need to jump through a hoop or two.

    As I’ve said and will keep saying the gun owners I know don’t want to carry a gun into a movie theater. They would be sacred if somebody did. Not cause they are wimps, but cause why do you need a gun in a movie theater.

    My father is a bad ass motherfucker. Military guy. He taught me a few things. (1) If you have to fight you have already lost (a Sun Tzu kind of thing). (2) A gun doesn’t make you a man.

  100. 100.

    Elizabelle

    January 14, 2014 at 9:48 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    Unfortunately, the SYG law practically guarantees that what would have once been a brief scuffle at worst now has the potential to escalate to a murder.

    That’s it. Mr. Oulson, a white middle class father, fell victim to “stand your movie seat.” At a matinee full of white people. (Look at the pictures from the Tampa Tribune links above.)

    Maybe this case, and watching Zimmerman’s antics post-acquittal, will gain some traction in undoing SYG? One can dream.

  101. 101.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 9:49 am

    @Elizabelle:

    Florida is Florida, but this could have happened anywhere.

    Not long ago, in Florida, I watched a movie. There were moments in the movie when Christians and Republicans were criticized (mildly). I did look around nervously at those moments.

    [*] Philomena; I recommend it to people who are not sufficiently enraged by the history and continuing behavior of the Catholic Church.

  102. 102.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 9:52 am

    @Betty Cracker: I take your lengthy response to mean that you had simply not intended to make a statement of absolute certainty. Mystery cleared up!

  103. 103.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 9:57 am

    @Ash Can:

    I’m surrounded by guns in the neighborhood where I live, and it doesn’t bother me in the least.

    See, here’s another statement I find mystifying. It would bother me plenty.

    Another thing that bothers me plenty is that, given the state of the law, I also may be “surrounded by guns in the neighborhood where I live” — and just don’t know it.

  104. 104.

    chopper

    January 14, 2014 at 10:07 am

    @aimai:

    exactly. It was probably the dude’s first night away from the kid in ages. I know that feeling. Then some choad tries to ruin your one date night because, gasp, you’re texting the babysitter.

    I’d have told the fossil to cram it with walnuts. not if I knew he was a head case with a gun, of course.

  105. 105.

    chopper

    January 14, 2014 at 10:11 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    I find smug condescension very useful myself!

    we can see that.

  106. 106.

    WereBear

    January 14, 2014 at 10:24 am

    I believe, based on my own recent experiences, that we have inadvertently crafted a society that is based on maximum frustration.

    Between businesses who have outsourced their work to the customer, implacable automation gumming up what used to be simple tasks, the extra hoops of the Patriot Act and Security Theater and the sheer, mind-numbing, load of crap —

    *We have packages wherein the contents are going to break in six months, but opening the package takes a bomb disposal team.

    *I have yet to get the proper answer from any large organization (private OR governmental) on the first try in recent months. NEVER. It can take five or six phone calls and being sent in the wrong direction as many times.

    *I remember getting my name change from marriage in 2001 as being simple. (Note to gals… once you do it once, you gotta keep doing it.) My young co-worker got married this fall, and she’s still trying to comply with all the stupid and confusing instructions she’s been given.

    *Companies thrash around about “customer service” because most of them have completely lost any understanding of what that means.

    This isn’t a Get Off My Lawn, response: first of all, I’m not that old, and second, I know people of all ages who agree with me.

    We’ve just created (and I do blame Republicans) a society that doesn’t work.

    It’s got to stop.

  107. 107.

    Betty Cracker

    January 14, 2014 at 11:00 am

    @WereBear: I think you’re onto something there, and part of that culture is the icon of the lone man (almost always a man) who rages against the machine and ultimately dispenses justice from the muzzle of a gun.

    In the movies, it’s usually someone who tries to get justice through the proper channels at first but is then broken down by the corrupt system, at which point he takes justice into his own hands, purifying the world through violence. It’s a recurring theme, and every other little peckerwood with a Glock thinks he’s starring in the drama.

    I was reading some of the comments from the local yahoos on the newspaper accounts from this incident, and I swear to god, it’s enough to turn a person agoraphobic.

  108. 108.

    kc

    January 14, 2014 at 11:10 am

    @Elizabelle:

    Wait … texting a 3 year old? Do people do that now?

  109. 109.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    January 14, 2014 at 11:28 am

    @aimai:

    IIRC, Illinois (where Tommy lives) has some pretty strict gun laws, especially as compared to states like Florida.  My dad and my brother both had an Illinois FOID, which is the state license to own guns. Here’s an FAQ about it.

    @WereBear:

    When we got married in 2006, I did not change my name, in part because I’d heard all of the horror stories about what a pain in the ass it was, particularly in the wake of 9/11. I’ll answer to “Mrs. Magillicuddy” when addressed, but I never changed it legally.

  110. 110.

    Bill Arnold

    January 14, 2014 at 11:46 am

    A little late, rude pundit’s detailed summary of the spending bill. (warning bad rude words, mainly in the first paragraph).

  111. 111.

    Cervantes

    January 14, 2014 at 11:56 am

    @Bill Arnold: Thanks.

  112. 112.

    Jebediah, RBG

    January 14, 2014 at 12:12 pm

    @kc:

    Wait … texting a 3 year old? Do people do that now?

    Not really – was texting the three-year-old’s babysitter.

  113. 113.

    ruemara

    January 14, 2014 at 2:39 pm

    @Elizabelle: You actually are victim blaming here. Sorry.

  114. 114.

    Gravenstone

    January 14, 2014 at 3:05 pm

    @Tommy: Personally, I don’t think concealed carry should be allowed for anyone outside plain clothes law enforcement. If you need to have a gun on your person so fucking bad, open carry. Let the rest of the world know you’re an insecure asshole with compensation issues. That way, we can make the informed decision whether to deal with you, or shun you.

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