Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

When they say they are pro-life, they do not mean yours.

Relentless negativity is not a sign that you are more realistic.

if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.

When you’re in more danger from the IDF than from Russian shelling, that’s really bad.

It’s pointless to bring up problems that can only be solved with a time machine.

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

Republican speaker of the house Mike Johnson is the bland and smiling face of evil.

They punch you in the face and then start crying because their fist hurts.

I am pretty sure these ‘journalists’ were not always such a bootlicking sycophants.

Disappointing to see gov. newsom with his finger to the wind.

How any woman could possibly vote for this smug smarmy piece of misogynistic crap is beyond understanding.

If you still can’t see these things even now, maybe politics isn’t your forte and you should stop writing about it.

It is not hopeless, and we are not helpless.

You’re just a puppy masquerading as an old coot.

“Perhaps I should have considered other options.” (head-desk)

So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

All hail the time of the bunny!

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Republican also-rans: four mules fighting over a turnip.

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

Some judge needs to shut this circus down soon.

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Reader Interactions

302Comments

  1. 1.

    shortstop

    So funny. So delicious. As I said in a thread below, I only hope this is the first direct attention Springsteen has paid to Christie. I believe Springsteen has turned him down every time Christie begged for a post-show meeting.

  2. 2.

    Violet

    So great. It’s everywhere this morning. I saw they show a clip of it on whatever the CBS morning show is. I’m sure Chris Christie is devastated, even though he’ll try to laugh it off. His hero made fun of him.

  3. 3.

    scav

    Think or hope? It is nevertheless very sweet, with a savory crust of justice.

    May finally put paid to freeloading misuse of Born in the USA?

  4. 4.

    grape_crush

    > Do you think Chris Christie died a little inside when he saw this?

    Happens when someone you idolize ridicules you.

    Something about Christie tells me that deep down he’s not taking all of the jokes and negative press well, despite putting on a game face.

  6. 6.

    BarbCat

    I never thought my teen crush would become my adult hero and, just to be clear, I am talking about Bruce. You’re right; his must have deflated the Governor’s soul a little bit.

  7. 7.

    dmsilev

    @shortstop: I have a vague memory that Christie did eventually succeed in meeting Springsteen. It might have been after the hurricane or something like that.

    But still, yes this will probably leave a mark.

  9. 9.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    Do you think Chris Christie died a little inside when he saw this?

    One can only hope. Christie is such a bully and was when he was a US Attorney.

    Is in wrong that I giggled when I saw this on TPM’s side bar? Or perhaps just juvenile:

    A Tennessee man accidentally shot himself in the chin Sunday night while taking off a pair of pants, the Johnson… Read More →

    Of course what follow at the click through is “City Press reported.” But I had an 11year old’s response to the front page. It’s been one of those weeks.

  10. 10.

    Betty Cracker

    @dmsilev: You’re right — he did, and it was related to the hurricane. CC was gushing like a post-Beiber backstage pass schoolgirl about it too. This has GOT to leave a mark.

  12. 12.

    shortstop

    @dmsilev: @Betty Cracker: Yes, Amir provided a video in Anne Laurie’s thread below. It was deeply embarrassing to watch.

    @grape_crush: If you’re thin-skinned enough to insist on retribution when people of the opposite party don’t want to do what you want them to do, you’re probably not going to have a healthy ability to laugh at yourself.

  17. 17.

    Villago Delenda Est

    Do you think Chris Christie died a little inside when he saw this?

    Yes, and the very thought of it causes my Schadenfreude meter to peg.

    Suffer, asshole. Suffer.

  18. 18.

    bryan

    My introduction to the video on Facebook this morning. (I grew up in NJ.)

    I have a picture in my mind of a beautiful, sunny Saturday afternoon in mid-May, 1980. It is the day after the Senior Prom, and a young Chris Christie has made the trek from Livingston down to Seaside Heights with his high school buddies. They are cruising the boardwalk when a few of them decide to visit a fortune teller for a laugh. The details of this little lark has long-since been forgotten by most of them, but not by Christie. For this becomes a defining moment in the life of a still impressionable 17-year-old: the fortune teller informs Christie that some day, his hero, The Boss, Bruce Springsteen himself, will sing a song dedicated to and all about Chris Christie. For years, Christie remembers this as the greatest day in his life, because deep down in his heart he knows it will come true. For over 33 years he has carried this knowledge in his heart. No matter how many dissapointing concerts went by without even a mention, no matter that Bruce turned down a personal invitaion to perform at his inauguration as Governor of New Jersey, Christie knows that some day his hero will come around.

    No responses yet, guessing tl;dr

  19. 19.

    MattR

    Do you think Chris Christie died a little inside when he saw this?

    Just came across this elsewhere and had that exact thought while watching it. Makes the song that much better :)

  20. 20.

    Frankensteinbeck

    I’m guessing he’ll lash out with petty spite beyond anything we’ve seen so far. Hard to say if he’ll be so crazed as to make it public, but his pattern seems clear.

    EDIT – I’m thinking ‘deliberately screw over his constituents, and hard’. Stuff like the bridge closing, but worse.

  22. 22.

    Rosalita

    @JPL:

    What are the odds that Cole posts the same video tonight?

    He posted it last night actually… but the video is a gift that keeps on giving

  24. 24.

    Villago Delenda Est

    BTW, DPM….GREAT title for your post!

    He’s called “The Boss” for a reason, you know!

  25. 25.

    Petorado

    Laughter is kryptonite to bullies like Christie. He’d rather be feared than loved, and nobody fears the person that everyone is pointing and laughing at.

  27. 27.

    Dee Loralei

    That was hilarious. And God did I need the smiles today. My mother turned 75 last Tuesday. On Wednesday my father took her to the ER. She has pneumonia with Cardiomyopathy and emphysema. Last night she told me she was tired of suffering. And she was ready to die and that she would never come home again. I came home to tell my father and my son. (She hsn’t wanted company in the hospital, so we’ve been staggering our visits.) My little sister hasn’t returned any of my phone calls or texts. My aunt and her two adult kids are coming to Memphis either tonight or tom. And I’m just reeling. Mom doesn’t want anyone there. I told the nurses to ask the Dr about antidepressants. I’m keeping busy making sure sheets are clean etc and trying to plan a menu. Because keeping busy will make me feel useful. Because in all honesty, I want to curl up into a ball on my bed and cry. And I need to go to the bank and cash a rather large check, within the tax free gift limits, ahem, Yutsy. And cope as best I can.

    I’m just gonna thank you all right here. I know you will offer kind and comforting words, and I will need them, even from strangers on the internet. I promise I’ll come back and read this thread later. You guys will give me comfort and I can’t thank you enough in advance. I have no idea how long she is going to last, but she seemed to think it will be soonish.

  28. 28.

    gene108

    How about the weather, I hear it is a bear:

    SOUTH LAKE TAHOE, Calif. (AP) — An unusual sight for winter turned some skiers’ heads on the slopes at Lake Tahoe: a black bear.

    Skiers participating in a race let the bruin amble across the slopes and disappear into woods without incident at Heavenly Mountain Resort on Friday.

    Nevada Department of Wildlife spokesman Chris Healy says an unusually dry, mild winter in the Sierra has made some bears either not hibernate or partially hibernate.

    SNIP

    The snowpack around the Tahoe Basin is roughly 25 percent of normal for this time of year.

    Link

    I personally pity the people in the Southwest and California, because they are going to have absolutely no water, if the weather keeps up like this.

    Fucking George H.W Bush pushed through provisions in the Clean Air Act of 1990 to address problems of acid rain on Midwestern vegetation.

    We now have bigger problems, with regards to climate change and the Republican Party will burn anyone who admits it is even a problem at the proverbial stake.

    This is one reason to really hate Fox News, Rush, et. al. because they promote, enable and justify a level of ignorance that is already starting to hurt us dearly.

    Also, too China maybe the largest emitter of greenhouse gases on the planet, but the USA’s still #2, with 25% of the population. If China burned greenhouse gasses at the per capita rate of the U.S., the planet could not support the loss of natural resources for very long. Our economic system incentives that sort of consumption and we have one major political Party hell bent on making sure we do nothing to head off worse problems.

  29. 29.

    slippytoad

    @grape_crush:

    Something about Christie tells me that deep down he’s not taking all of the jokes and negative press well, despite putting on a game face.

    Yea, I’m real sorry about that. Wait, how many people died waiting for EMS because of Christie’s fucking infantile inability to get along with others? At least one, right?

    Nope, not sorry at all. I hope this really burns his ass.

  31. 31.

    grape_crush

    @shortstop: If/when this all blows over, it will be interesting to see what’s in store in BridgeGate II: The Wrath of Christie.

    If he wants retribution, he’s gonna have to do it Keyser Soze-style; quiet, with no one else knowing what’s going on…because he’ll be under a microscope from here on out.

    Good to see you’re still around, by the way.

  32. 32.

    sparrow

    @gene108: And the most depressing part is, our resource usage has to change in a BIG way for us to avoid catastrophic climate change. People think that using CFLs and buying a Prius is helping, but it really ain’t doing shit. The reality is far harsher: live next to your work and walk. Keep a garden and forget about eating meat. Everything reusable. Forget almost everything made out of plastic. Careful water usage, and smaller homes. Owning a lot less. Long-distance travel extremely rare.

    People don’t want to hear these things, much less do them. So we’ll keep driving our Landrovers 90 mph into a wall instead.

  33. 33.

    srv

    @Cervantes:

    “We hugged,” Christie said during a press briefing. “He told me it’s official: we’re friends. I told the president today, actually, that the hug was great and when we got home, there was a lot of weeping because of the hug. And the president asked why. I said, ‘Well, to be honest, I was the one doing the weeping.'”

    For GW it was pretzels, what made Hitler cry?

  34. 34.

    jl

    OT but about gubernerators, except good courageous ones who put the welfare of their constituents first.

    I can;t find hat sidebar about the poor goofus who shot himself, (maybe The Johnson?) while taking off his pants, but an article at TPM about states with best ACA enrollment performance so far.

    One of them is Kentucky, with a good, and also note well, Democratic gubernerator, Steve Beshear, who fought for a good and aggressive enrollment program.

    Looking at the Numbers
    Josh Marshall, TPM
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/obamacare-by-the-numbers

  35. 35.

    Gex

    @Dee Loralei: I’m so sorry to hear. What a difficult thing, made maybe more difficult given how your mother is responding to her situation. I wish there were something I could do to help. All I can do is tear up here at home and wish you well and send you virtual hugs. (((hugs)))

  36. 36.

    Mnemosyne

    @Dee Loralei:

    We lost my dad around this time of year last year (January 3rd, to be exact) so believe me when I say I know how you feel. And it was the same thing with him — he knew it was time and he was ready to go. We weren’t ready for him to go, but he was, and there was a little bit of peace knowing that.

    Don’t be surprised or upset if she dies when none of the family are in the room with her — that’s very, very common. It’s like people don’t want to upset their family by dying with them nearby, so they wait for you to step outside for a few minutes. It happened with my father-in-law, my father, and with multiple people I talked to.

  37. 37.

    MomSense

    @Dee Loralei:

    I’m so sorry to hear your sad news today. It sounds like you are doing the best you can as you try to honor your mom’s wishes while caring for everyone else in your family. Please try and make a little time for yourself to care for your emotions and be gentle with yourself. Is there someone who can help you with your mom like a trusted doctor, social worker or clergy? I am sending my sympathy and hugs to you.

  38. 38.

    scav

    @Dee Loralei: Take care and just do what you need to do and let your mother say what she needs to say and process as she needs to process. Sometimes saying things can be used as sympathetic magic, making the universe do the other. Or just be a side-effect of internal mechanisms. Or be an expression of actual definitive desires. You know her and your relationship better than any of us, so trust yourself. All the best.

  39. 39.

    Cervantes

    @srv: Christie has been to more than a hundred Springsteen shows. He knows every single Springsteen lyric. And “Born To Run” is one of his ten favorite Springsteen songs.

  40. 40.

    Captain C

    I read today in the Daily News that Chris Christie has vowed to help find the real Bridgegate culprits. Doesn’t this sound like O.J. Simpson’s promise to find the real killer or killers of his wife?

  41. 41.

    KG

    @sparrow:

    live next to your work and walk. Keep a garden and forget about eating meat.

    so then, become an 18th century vegetarian? sorry, but zoning laws in most places makes living next to your work damn near impossible, a lot of jobs require people to actually go multiple places regularly, and if everybody is living right next to their work, there’s not going to be a lot of space for a garden.

    as for not eating meat, yeah, sorry, that’s probably not happening.

    ETA: don’t get me wrong, living closer to your work is a good thing for a variety of reasons (wasting two hours a day stuck in traffic is not good for you), but the reality is if you’re living in a proper city, you’re probably not going to have enough space to have a proper garden.

  44. 44.

    chopper

    Do you think Chris Christie died a little inside when he saw this?

    yes. of course, it could have been a heart attack as well. you never know.

  45. 45.

    FourTen

    This is the worst thing that is going to happen to him, and i mean that literally. A few jokes at their expense is the most punishment GOP-types get when they cross the line (think Colbert at the Press Dinner years ago and compare that to what could/should have happened in response to the Bush Admin’s actions).

    Quips on The Daily Show is somehow justice enough for society

  46. 46.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @srv:

    For GW it was pretzels, what made Hitler cry?

    “Mein Führer, we’ve checked your family tree, and your great-great-grandmother on your mother’s side was Jewish.”

  47. 47.

    Cervantes

    @Dee Loralei: Anti-depressants are worth looking into but simply talking to her about feelings, if she is willing, can also be a huge comfort — to both of you. She’s a grown-up; don’t be afraid to ask questions, indelicate or otherwise; and let her talk. She may say she wants to be alone, and that’s her prerogative, but let her know that you are all there, within reach.

    Hang in there. Mind yourself, too.

  51. 51.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Cervantes:

    “Born to Run” is probably in the top ten favorites of every Springsteen fan on the planet. It certainly is in my top ten Boss songs. It was his breakout hit.

  53. 53.

    Nethead Jay

    Do you think Chris Christie died a little inside when he saw this? I do.

    I most certainly hope he did. Would have liked to have been a fly on the wall for that moment. I wonder if people around him were rather reticent to tell him about the video ;-D

    Also, looks like this is spreading rapidly across the net and deservedly so.

  54. 54.

    slippytoad

    @Captain C:

    Are you serious? He can’t hear that lame-ass echo in his own head?

    Yea, sure, Governor Petty Vengeance. We’ll see you on golf courses around the world.

    Weirdly, the only people who could have done this work for him, so he can’t pussy-foot around with that excuse for long.

  56. 56.

    chopper

    @KG:

    well, it’s true that our towns and cities are not really designed for that sort of lifestyle, and only some of us are lucky enough to live at or very close to where they work where it is walkable and yet still have room for a garden. but this:

    as for not eating meat, yeah, sorry, that’s probably not happening

    is just dumb. this is something that is completely within your control. this isn’t a matter of ‘shit, i can’t afford to live that close to work’. it’s just ‘i like eating a diet that people tell me kills the planet’.

    shit, being a vegetarian is cheaper.

    if you have allowed yourself to be convinced that the meat you’re eating is terrible for the planet, given that eating meat is completely and utterly optional why wouldn’t you ditch it for something better?

    yeah, i don’t imagine americans in huge numbers switching to pastured meat or vegetarianism any time soon but that’s hardly a moral argument for you personally avoiding the switch.

  57. 57.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @sparrow:

    The society we’ve created is simply not sustainable with the population we have and the readily available energy sources we can tap. Everyone in the world (the Chinese in particular) want to have the same lifestyle as the US does, and it just won’t work. Americans consume an inordinate amount of energy to sustain that lifestyle, and the negative consequences will eventually bite us in the ass. Mother Nature is a bitch.

    Especially in the western US, we’ve designed our habitations on the assumption that the automobile will always be there, which is a terrible assumption.

    Eventually, a balance will be found, but humanity will not care for the way it’s achieved.

  59. 59.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Cervantes:

    I see your point…particularly when Springsteen himself sings “Governor I want to be your friend”…and then proceeds to sing that he needs to take a leak, but can’t, because he’s stuck in Chris Christie’s traffic jam.

    BURRRRRRN!

    As an aside, I’d like to know the genesis of this skit…Fallon’s people calling up Springsteen’s people, saying that they’re going to fair use “Born to Run” for a Christie parody, and Springsteen’s people then saying…hold on a second, let me run this by The Boss…and Springsteen telling them sure, as long as I get to help write the lyrics!

  60. 60.

    WereBear

    @chopper: We’re not talking about moral arguments, we’re talking about biology.

    People can’t live without animal products; B12, for one big glaring instance.

    I tried vegetarianism for 9 months and wound up fat, pasty, and unable to shake off any bug that came along. The experts at the health food store threw up their hands.

    Turns out, best as I can tell, I don’t have the enzymes to get enough protein from vegetable sources. Either I’m a rare mutant… or there’s lot of people like me.

    I don’t have anything against vegetarianism, I’m just pointing out that it’s only the solution for some people.

    Sustainable humane farms can go on almost anywhere. But they still need some means to get their stuff into the cities.

  62. 62.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Dee Loralei: How many virtual {{{hugs}}} can you manage? I can send those in abundance. I am so very sorry. Keeping busy is good, but please remember to let yourself feel.

    {{{hugs}}}

  64. 64.

    gene108

    @KG:

    There really does need to be a whole sale change on how we evaluate economic incentives.

    We’re seeing a tragedy of the commons played out, with regards to our economic situation and people have been writing about ways to give industry a monetary incentive to avoid the ongoing tragedy of the commons, we have as the status quo.

    Fat Al Gore, Jr was writing about this in 1992.

    We don’t need to be 18th century vegetarians, but the unwillingness to even acknowledge a problem by Republicans will cause lasting harm to the planet. In the late 1980’s and early 1990’s, there was some momentum to curbing green house gas emissions by developed nations. There was the Kyoto Protocol that was signed in 1997 to address climate change, but thanks to Bush & Co. and we never ratified the treaty and did not bother to try and curb our greenhouse gas emissions.

    Back in 2001, the USA was still #1, with regards to greenhouse gas emissions.

    This is another thing to really hate Bush & Co. for.

    Anyway, to wind up this rant, the USA’s major cause of greenhouse gas emissions is transportation, i.e. we drive everywhere. If we could reduce that whether through mass transit or electric cars or something else we would take a big bite out of our contribution to greenhouse gas emissions.

    We’d have to really redesign how we live, with regards to commuting work and everywhere else. Whether the solution is to live within walking distance or mass transit can be debated, but if we could reduce the amount of greenhouse gases coming out of our cars’ tailpipes, we’d be helping ourselves in the long run.

  66. 66.

    chopper

    @WereBear:

    People can’t live without animal products; B12, for one big glaring instance.

    so eat eggs and drink milk. plenty of vegetarian foods are fortified with B12, besides. i’m sorry, but just because you didn’t do a great job being a vegetarian doesn’t mean that applies to everyone else.

    i’m not saying vegetarianism is the only option. i mentioned pastured meat for a reason.

    however, if you have come to understand that your diet is killing the earth, why just shrug off the idea of changing it ala ‘that aint gonna happen’?

  67. 67.

    rikyrah

    Taxpayers’ tab for McDonnell legal bills tops $780,000

    Taxpayers’ tab likely to rise as state-appointed lawyers stay on case
    BY OLYMPIA MEOLA Richmond Times-Dispatch

    Virginia taxpayers have shelled out more than $780,000 for legal bills in connection with the resolved criminal case involving a former Executive Mansion chef and a gifts investigation into Gov. Bob McDonnell.A batch of invoices the governor’s office provided Thursday shows expenses of nearly $210,000 on top of the $574,000 that had been billed for work through at least the end of August.

    McDonnell faces state and federal investigations related to the more than $160,000 in gifts and loans that he and his family received from Jonnie R. Williams Sr., then-CEO of Star Scientific.

    With the investigations still unresolved, the legal bills could continue to climb.

    http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/taxpayers-tab-for-mcdonnell-legal-bills-tops/article_8ce4065c-3a28-55bb-869c-b32f93576eee.html

  69. 69.

    Ash Can

    @slippytoad: The family of the woman who died said that the ambulance’s delay made no difference; she was already gone. It certainly doesn’t excuse what Christie and his thugs did, though.

  70. 70.

    rikyrah

    Wis. legislators circulate 7-day work week bill
    By Todd Richmond

    MADISON — Wisconsin manufacturing and retail workers could volunteer to work seven days straight without a day off under a bill two Republican lawmakers are circulating on behalf of the state’s largest business group.

    The bill promises to ratchet up tensions between the GOP and Democrats and their organized labor allies, who are still stinging after Republicans passed Gov. Scott Walker’s plan to strip most public workers of nearly all their union rights in 2011.

    The measure’s authors, Sen. Glenn Grothman of West Bend and Mark Born of Beaver Dam, say the bill brings Wisconsin in line with federal law, gives workers a way to make extra money and employers a way to boost production. But Democrats and labor leaders insisted bosses would use the bill to force their employees to work longer and effectively erase the weekend.

    “Even God said rest on the seventh day,” said David Reardon, secretary-treasurer for Teamsters Local 662, a union that represents about 10,000 workers across various industries in west-central and east-central Wisconsin, including manufacturing, truck driving, public workers and food service workers. “I would hate to see that Republican bill pass. Some employers would really take advantage of that.”

    http://www.stevenspointjournal.com/viewart/20140112/SPJ01/301120292/

  73. 73.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @gene108:

    we’d be helping ourselves in the long run.

    Unpossible. Looks beyond the end of the current fiscal quarter.

    The MBA mentality encompasses our doom.

  75. 75.

    chopper

    @WereBear:

    and yes, deciding what to do about your diet which you acknowledge is overly harmful to the world around you is in fact a moral decision. how wouldn’t it be?

  77. 77.

    WereBear

    @chopper: Sustainable farming doesn’t “kill the earth.” I don’t “acknowledge is overly harmful to the world around you” at all!

    It’s the cycle of life, for heaven’s sake!

    Monocultures like grain production IS harmful to the earth. Old fashioned farms, like the one I spent summers on, is not.

  79. 79.

    Spankyslappybottom

    Well, let me splash around in the shallow end of the pool and ask: What deal with the devil did Springsteen make to look so freakin’ young? He’ll be 65 this year. Jesus…gotta go work out now…

  82. 82.

    gene108

    @FourTen:

    compare that to what could/should have happened in response to the Bush Admin’s actions

    Bush & Co., I believe, given Christie’s ham handed handling of the bridge situation and the general lack of popularity by Republican governors in PA and FL (I’m not sure abut WI and MI), was the acme of Republican ratfucking and corruption.

    The take home lesson for the recycled Nixon White House staffer, who were still a major part of the Reagan and Bush, Jr. White Houses was do not get caught. If their boss did not have the tape recording system in use, there’d ahve been nothing to hang on him.

    So after Watergate and Iran-Contra, the people who struggled to figure out how to not get caught reached the pinnacle of their corruption under Bush & Co., where you had people, who had spent the past thirty years since Watergate figuring out ways to make sure nothing was ever recorded that could lead back to those in charge.

    The folks responsible for it are getting up in years and won’t be able to lend their services to the next batch of Republicans. The current batch of Republicans does not seem as adroit at the whole sale corruption that Bush & Co were.

  83. 83.

    Bubblegum Tate

    I think I’ve mentioned before that my work email address has been scraped by TimBueler.com, which is basically a promo spam operation on behalf of WorldNutDaily. Well, WND’s head idiot, Jerome Corsi, has really outdone himself: He’s got a new book (or rather, “book”) coming out called Hunting Hitler: New Scientific Evidence That Hitler Escaped Germany. Scientific evidence, y’all!

    Yes, the wingnuts are about to go Hitler Truther on that ass. I just can’t wait to see how Corsi ties “escaped Hitler” to Obama. Because obviously, the connection is there.

  84. 84.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Spankyslappybottom:

    As I understand it, sometime back in the 80’s Springsteen got himself buffed up (through hard training) and has maintained a regimen to keep that look ever since.

    You know it don’t come easy.

  86. 86.

    chopper

    @gene108:

    this. all of this.

    the hardest part is redesigning the way our cities and towns are laid out. that is a huge undertaking and unfortunately will only be accepted as being necessary after it is way too late. then again you could argue that it was ‘too late’ 20 years ago. i dunno.

    a lot of changes have to be made and many of them are very difficult. it’s not like people can just snap their fingers and make magic green jobs appear that pay well enough for you to live close to work and have an efficient house etc etc.

    but slashing your meat intake is easy. it’s balls easy. it takes literally no work outside of coming up with a few new recipes for dinner and ordering different shit when you go out. it’s just that people like eating the stuff so much they come up with every excuse to keep it up.

    you don’t even have to go full-veg either. cut your meat intake to the point where you’re able to make up that portion of your diet out of local pasture-raised stuff. yes, there are vitamins and amino acids that are harder to get from pure vegetable sources but that problem can be obviated by a very small amount of animal products. you don’t need to eat meat every goddamn day just to get the what, 2 micrograms? of B12 you need on a daily basis.

  87. 87.

    Cervantes

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    As an aside, I’d like to know the genesis of this skit…Fallon’s people calling up Springsteen’s people, saying that they’re going to fair use “Born to Run” for a Christie parody, and Springsteen’s people then saying…hold on a second, let me run this by The Boss…and Springsteen telling them sure, as long as I get to help write the lyrics!

    No, Springsteen and the Band were the scheduled guests. The Boss has a new album to promote.

    And I’m told he’s done similar things with Fallon when he’s been on the show in the past.

  88. 88.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @WereBear:

    The main problem, in this crazy culture, is that “sustainable” is in direct conflict with “profitable”, in particular short term profit.

    This paradigm drives nearly every economic decision made in this society. It’s shortsighted, it’s stupid, but it’s the norm.

  90. 90.

    BarbCat

    @Dee Loralei: So painful when someone seems so ready to give up. It’s not fair. Your mom’s ability to be honest with you must be a great relief to her. That doesn’t help your pain much so please accept my virtual sympathy.

  91. 91.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Cervantes:

    Then it was Fallon and his folks proposing this to Springsteen, and Springsteen enthusiastically collaborating.

    Heck, it might have been Springsteen’s idea in the first place!

  92. 92.

    chopper

    @WereBear:

    Old fashioned farms, like the one I spent summers on, is not.

    is that the type of meat americans eat? by a large majority, no, it is not.

    and pastured meat is great, but this country cannot by any means provide as much pastured meat and poultry as the conventional stuff we eat every day.

    people have to cut down. even if everybody switched to the sort of meat that your old-fashioned farm used to make, we’d still have to cut way, way back. americans’ meat consumption is just way too high.

  94. 94.

    Karen in GA

    Okay, I liked the video because I love, love, love the idea of Bruce Springsteen publicly mocking — not just criticizing, but flat-out ridiculing — Christie. But I think what makes this bit funny is that it’s Springsteen doing it — to me, the song itself, and Jimmy Fallon in general, aren’t all that funny.

    (Jimmy Fallon comes off as likable and harmless enough, and he seems to be enjoying himself in a likable, harmless way. I don’t hate the guy. I just don’t laugh that much when I watch him.)

    ETA: Yeah, I know, I had to go ahead and be that person, didn’t I?

  95. 95.

    patrick II

    Christie still has his fans. I heard more than a smattering of “boo’s” at the end of that song. Maybe Christie heard the Boss was performing and snuck into the audience.

  96. 96.

    gene108

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Unpossible. Looks beyond the end of the current fiscal quarter.

    The MBA mentality encompasses our doom.

    It is more human nature than anything. If the social norm is to do ‘x’, you will have otherwise capable people doing ‘x’ because it is what is expected. Whether ‘x’ was the Chinese binding women’s feet, child marriages or other things that as an outsider you look at it and say, “this is fucked up, you should change”, when ‘x’ is your cultural norm it will take a major upheaval in society to change ‘x’.

    American society’s ‘x’ problem is conspicuous consumption.

    Trying to get Americans to realize there are going to be serious lasting consequences to it is about the same as trying to change any other cultural norm, anywhere else in the world.

    In short our problem is deeper than a business school mentality.

  97. 97.

    Violet

    @Dee Loralei: So very sorry to hear about your mom. Checking on antidepressants is a good idea as pain in the elderly is sometimes discounted because they’re old, but often a signal they are depressed. It sounds like your mom has more health issues, so I don’t know if that comment is relevant. I did go through something like that in my own family, so have experience. Best to you and thinking of you across the internet.

  99. 99.

    jl

    American meat, American meat,
    The patriotic, manly he-man treat!
    How can cardboard, newsprint, and chicken sheet
    Be turned into something so tasteless, fatty and sweet?

  100. 100.

    dance around in your bones

    This video made me laugh so hard I hadda take a leak.

    Nothing a bully hates more than being laughed at, so……come on, alla you big strong men, Uncle Sam needs your help again!* You can do it! Laugh like you’ve never laughed before!

    *apologies to Country Joe, women, and not Brit le Hume.

  101. 101.

    Cervantes

    @patrick II:

    I heard more than a smattering of “boo’s” at the end of that song.

    You’re sure they weren’t saying “Bruuuuuuce!”?

  109. 109.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Karen in GA: I agree with you on Fallon, he does a lot of clever stuff, but when Letterman retires I think I’ll switch to Kimmel.

    In other news, Brian Schweitzer plans to run against Hillary by running against Obama, from the left on Health Care and NSA, from the right on the environment and guns. This is a man with his finger on the pulse of the Democratic Party of 19… what? twenties? thirties?

    The question was simple enough: Is there a single thing President Obama has done that you consider a positive achievement?
    Finally, he spoke.
    “My mother, God rest her soul, told me ‘Brian, if you can’t think of something nice to say about something change the subject,’” he said.
    But he couldn’t help himself, slamming Obama’s record on civil liberties (the NSA revelations were “un-effing-believable”), his competency (“They just haven’t been very good at running things”), and above all, Obamacare (“It will collapse on its own weight”).

    The right wing and Politco/Sunday Show/Morning Joe axis of idiots have a new useful idiot I mean favorite Democrat.

  110. 110.

    Tommy

    That is comedy gold. Stunning. I am not a Bruce Springsteen guy. But if I ever became famous and Bono came on TV to mock me, well I might listen. Just like he likes Bruce, well my early days was all U2. Large parts of my childhood was spent listening to them.

  111. 111.

    Riley's Enabler

    @Dee Loralei: Sending love and white light and hugs. Watching our parents age and slip into physical – and mental – difficulties is dreadful. I wish you strength and peace.

  112. 112.

    sparrow

    @KG:

    Look, I keep getting this response whenever I post what I think is a fairly obvious prediction of how things are going to go. Either energy gets expensive now (from taxes), or it gets expensive later (we run out, or infrastructure is failing all over from global climate change). So if you want to quibble with my outlook, it might be the idea that there are “homes” to live in and “work” to go to, because we sure as hell aren’t going to either voluntarily or through legislation rein in excessive consumption any time soon.

    I’m not proposing this as a volunteer activity. I’m telling you what needs to happen if we want to continue inhabiting the planet.

    Most of us don’t care, I guess, because we’ll be dead before it gets really bad.

  113. 113.

    gene108

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    The Dark Lord and von Rumsfailed were two Nixon WH people who learned those lessons well.

    Case in point, in the 21st century neither Darth Cheney or the Chimp-in-Chief sent out an e-mail from their official government e-mail accounts and the servers that were handling their e-mails “mysteriously” died in a fire or something and had no data on them.

    Clearly the Christie cabal, in Trenton, have not been so disciplined.

    This is what gives me hope about the future. The Republicans have weeded out many of their “evil geniuses” as Bush Jr’s Misadministration crashed and burned as Iraq dragged on and the financial crisis hit.

    Those guys still exist, which is why you have folks using the CU decision to flood state and local races with Republican friendly advertisements in 2010, but the 2010 results were as much a confluence of a bad economy leading to a dejected electorate and an amped up right-winger base – fueled by Fox News – that won big.

    The 2010 results were not sustainable in 2012 and I do not see it as a model that can be replicated again.

  115. 115.

    EconWatcher

    Liberal and progressive values are so much at the core of Springsteen’s music that I find it hard to understand how a corporatist Republican like Christie could be such a huge fan of his. Springsteen isn’t just an entertainer who happens to be liberal. It’s pretty much the basis of many (most?) of his lyrics.

  118. 118.

    Tommy

    @gene108: What is going to do him in is hurbis. That he and his staff feel above you or me. So they put shit in writing nobody should put in writing. We’ve already started to see it. I mean who is dumb enough, even with their Gmail account, to mock somebody. Yet they did it. If you and I were committing an illegal act and you sent me an email about it I would be like “‘what the fuck dude!” How dare you communicate this way, they can trace this.

  119. 119.

    raven

    @EconWatcher: I’ll never forget the REM show in the ATL the summer before Obama was elected. Mike made a really brief statement to the effect that “he is a good man” and the boo’s rained down. Come to think of it Bruce caught a lot of shit that summer too. When Reagan can latch on to Born in the USA and turn it into some kind of patriotic shit not much surprises me.

  120. 120.

    RoonieRoo

    @Dee Loralei: I just want to send you my thoughts and hope. I lost my dad last year at this time and my husbands mother a couple of weeks later. I’m remembering those feelings and I want to give you a virtual hug. I will be thinking about you, your mom and your family and sending warm, loving thoughts for all of you.

  121. 121.

    Origuy

    This would spark outrage if it were a Republican administration and coming from any other country:

    Israel’s defence minister has been forced to apologise for “offensive and inappropriate” remarks, in which he described John Kerry as obsessive and messianic, after the ensuing diplomatic row engulfed the secretary of state’s mission to broker a peace deal in the Middle East.

    Moshe Ya’alon, an ally of Israeli prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu, had dismissed Kerry’s efforts to pursue a peace deal in private conversations with US and Israeli officials, which were reported in the Israeli media. He did not deny the accuracy of the comments.

    “Secretary of state John Kerry – who arrived here determined, and who operates from an incomprehensible obsession and a sense of messianism – can’t teach me anything about the conflict with the Palestinians,” Ya’alon was quoted as saying.

  122. 122.

    KG

    @chopper:

    if you have allowed yourself to be convinced that the meat you’re eating is terrible for the planet, given that eating meat is completely and utterly optional why wouldn’t you ditch it for something better?

    well that’s the thing, I don’t believe that eating meat is terrible for the planet. in fact, I believe that if it wasn’t for our meat consumption, many of the animals that we farm/ranch would probably have been driven to extinction years ago. I’m on board with sustainable farming, though, and when I go shopping, I try to find organic/humane local foods. nor do I believe that vegetarianism is an inherently better diet (any diet which requires you to take supplemental vitamins, is to me, not an improvement).

    @gene108:

    but the unwillingness to even acknowledge a problem by Republicans will cause lasting harm to the planet.

    total agreement here. my comment was really more about what I considered an absolutely unrealistic approach to life for most people in this country. again, don’t get me wrong, I’d love to be able to work within walking distance of my home (hell, I’d really love to be a good enough writer to be able to make a living doing that, where I wouldn’t even have to put pants on to “go to work”), but reality is not that. public transit would be great, but that would require a commitment of public funds, and we don’t necessarily live in a society that would be willing to put up public funds for transportation. again, I’m not opposed to them, but I don’t see viable public transport coming to much of southern California in my lifetime.

    I guess my point is, I’m much more interested in what we can accomplish today rather than so utopian idea that has no relation to the world we actually live in. that’s why I am no longer a libertarian, they spout a utopian ideal that ignores reality. that’s how I saw the original comment, thus my snarky response.

  123. 123.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @WereBear: and @WereBear:
    I can’t think of one. China eats meat. India eats meat. South America eats meat. Africa eats meat. Japan eats meat. I’m pretty sure Southeast Asia eats meat, but I know little about their cultures. We eat more, sure, but damn near everybody eats meat.

    Raising animals is also the most efficient use of marginal farmland. Dry areas with a lot of rocks can’t grow crops well, but they can grow chickens just fine.

  127. 127.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @raven: “American Skin” didn’t make Springsteen many fans on the right:

    The campaign mounted against rock and roll performer Bruce Springsteen for raising the killing of New York resident Amadou Diallo in a new song is a crude attack on freedom of speech and artistic expression. Police organizations in New York, Police Chief Howard Safir, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani and sections of the media have all weighed in, denouncing Springsteen for daring to sing about Diallo’s death in a storm of police gunfire in February 1999.
    […]
    After the June 4 concert the head of New York’s State Fraternal Order of Police, Bob Lucente, called Springsteen a “dirtbag” and a “floating fag.” Patrick Lynch, president of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association, wrote a letter to PBA delegates and members calling for a boycott of Springsteen’s shows. Lynch wrote, “I consider it an outrage that [Springsteen] would be trying to fatten his wallet by reopening the wounds of this tragic case at a time when police officers and community members are in a healing period.”
    On Tuesday afternoon hundreds of New York City police rallied in Manhattan against Springsteen. “We don’t need a millionaire coming down here and making money off our backs … on a terrible, terrible tragedy,” Lynch told a cheering crowd.[…]
    At a June 12 press conference that Giuliani shared with Police Chief Safir, the mayor condemned Springsteen. “Despite the fact that they were acquitted … there’s still people trying to create the impression that the police officers are guilty,” Giuliani declared

  128. 128.

    gene108

    @raven:

    When Reagan can latch on to Born in the USA and turn it into some kind of patriotic shit not much surprises me.

    The refrain of “Born in the USA” is catchy as hell. As long as you do not listen to the rest of the lyrics, you’d think it is a very upbeat song about the USA.

    I’m sure there’s a deep artistic reason for the somber lyrics and catchy refrain, but I think the refrain is what sticks in most peoples’ heads, with regards to songs.

  129. 129.

    WereBear

    @sparrow: I agree with you that something has to be done!

    We have friends in Great Britain who have been letting us know about things like de-centralized power; solar panels, tiny hydroplants for the abundant streams in farming country, there’s all kinds of things that can be done. That’s one of my favorites.

    The biggest thing in the US is the incredible WASTE. Nobody unplugs their chargers, they leave lights on, they won’t weatherstrip.

    A strong governmental push, with financial help, about not wasting energy would be HUGE. We could save 20-30% just by being a little bit sensible.

  130. 130.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @raven:

    My late father on the day after the 2000 election told me that the deserting coward was “a good man”.

    Five years later, he admitted to me he was wrong about the deserting coward.

    For my father, that was a huge admission.

  132. 132.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @WereBear:

    The Dark Lord has spoken. Energy conservation efforts are a waste of time and, well, energy.

    Don’t worry your pretty little empty heads about the future. The Dark Lord assures us we need not.

  134. 134.

    dance around in your bones

    @Dee Loralei: It’s so lonely and scary dealing with something like this.

    My husband didn’t want our adult kid to see him in the hospital, or anyone for that matter. He insisted that I take him home – shouting some very choice words – when he (not me) sensed it was the end. He died that night in our own bed, two years ago. He was only 62.

    It was lonely and scary for me but I now respect his choice – it was his to make. I still wish every day that he was with me but…..well, not much more to say except I feel for you and send you a great wave of empathy across these tubes.

  135. 135.

    jl

    @gene108:

    ” I’m sure there’s a deep artistic reason for the somber lyrics and catchy refrain, ”

    I think the reason is sarcasm. I’m not particularly a Springsteen fan but I always liked that song, and precisely for that contrast.

  136. 136.

    Karen in GA

    @raven:

    I’ll never forget the REM show in the ATL the summer before Obama was elected. Mike made a really brief statement to the effect that “he is a good man” and the boo’s rained down.

    I’m kind of surprised by this. Was Obama not far enough to the left, or were they somehow playing to a largely Republican audience? (Speaking as an REM fan myself, Obama’s not far enough to the left for me — but right now, someone far enough to the left to make me happy wouldn’t get elected. I hope he’s just one step in the right direction, and that we’ll keep moving leftward. So had I been there, I wouldn’t have booed.)

  137. 137.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Villago Delenda Est:
    I had almost the exact same experience with my father. He’s probably more liberal than I am, but he completely fell for ‘compassionate conservative’ and thought Bush would be competent and moderate in all ways and saber rattled only as a diplomatic tool. He was not happy with how things turned out.

  138. 138.

    Violet

    @EconWatcher: In Christie’s case, he’s from NJ and is in the right age group to have worshiped Springsteen during his formative years. Here’s an interesting insight from a 2012 Atlantic article on Christie and Springsteen:

    “You want to know what he’s saying?,” Christie asks. “He’s telling us that rich people like him are fucking over poor people like us in the audience, except that us in the audience aren’t poor, because we can afford to pay 98 bucks to him to see his show. That’s what he’s saying.”

    Wait a second, this is Bruce Springsteen we’re talking about, the guy you adore?

    “I compartmentalize,” Christie says.

    And Christie lies to himself:

    Christie thinks hard about what he would say to Springsteen, how he would explain himself, if he ever had the chance. I passed an afternoon with the governor in his office in the Capitol, in Trenton, not long before the concert, listening to Springsteen—we spent half an hour dissecting “Thunder Road,” Christie’s favorite song—and trying to untangle his complex feelings about his idol. Christie believes fiercely that Springsteen would understand him if he only made the effort. “My view on it is that I’m not a priority of his right now,” he said. “At some point maybe I will be. If Bruce and I sat down and talked, he would reluctantly come to the conclusion that we disagree on a lot less than he thinks.”

    Go ahead and tell yourself that, Chris. Tell yourself Bruce would totally agree with you if only he’d talk to you. Uh huh. Wonder where those dreams are today?

  141. 141.

    sparrow

    @WereBear: Totally agree. And part of the reason that I think we need to make energy expensive across the board, is that nothing else will get us to rein in our wastefulness. And I include myself in that. I’m absent-minded as heck, and leave lights on all the time. If it were costing me $5 every time, I’d learn pretty quick.

    We HAVE to stop throwing up our hands and saying “it’s hopeless”. I’m starting by making suggestions at work about wastefulness. We publish a paper newsletter every quarter that NO ONE READS, for example. I’m not saying small actions don’t add up, they do. But we have to be full-court press if we want things to turn around.

    I’m afraid we’ll wait until it’s far, far too late.

  142. 142.

    Tommy

    @KG: OK I am going to get on my high horse here. Eating meat isn’t a good thing for the world. It takes massive amounts of green house gases to get you a pound of hamburger. I assume you are a smart person so you can find this thing called Google and see for yourself.

    But I also don’t mind saying meat isn’t a bad thing. I think our bodies need it. There is a phrase I use, and I am about as “white” as you get, that the reason I eat rice like 24×7 is a billion Asians can’t be wrong. There are other foods we can eat. I view meat as something “nice” and only eat it a few times a week. Ways to not eat meat and still get by.

    Rice is one of them. Many years ago I was dirt poor out of college. My roommates girlfriend was from Korea. She turned me on to rice. Heck she turned me onto a lot of Asian things. How to get by with less. Just ponder not having meat every meal and that is something.

  143. 143.

    Karen in GA

    @jl: The Live in New York City concert DVD has a much more somber performance. I wonder if he didn’t change his mind about the catchiness being a good idea. Or maybe it had nothing to do with it, and he just did his own reinterpretation of an older song, as artists do. I like this one better, actually — that… what would you call it — riff? melody? in the chorus always got on my nerves.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEev8HQUGsc

  144. 144.

    sparrow

    @KG: You don’t think it’s worse, really? Got any numbers behind that? Here are some:

    http://timeforchange.org/eat-less-meat-co2-emission-of-food

    Everyone’s gone meat crazy. On average, Americans eat about 200 pounds of meat every year. That’s an increase of around 50 pounds per year since 1960 and the trend shows little signs of stopping. Worldwide, meat consumption is expected to double in the next 50 years. Unfortunately, aside from the harmful effects on personal health and Earth’s natural resources, this meat pig-out carries with it a massive impact on climate change. As much as 22% of greenhouse gas emissions come from agriculture and nearly 80% of that figure can be directly attributed to livestock production.

    http://www.carbonrally.com/challenges/13-vegetarian

  145. 145.

    jl

    @Violet: Probably being delusional about a lot of things, including the dissonance between your ideals and failed counterproductive ideology and policies you choose to pursue them, and how most normal people think, is a requirement for being a ‘moderate’ Republican these days.

  146. 146.

    shortstop

    @Karen in GA: REM’s a very white band. White people in Georgia are majority Republicans. White Georgians who were old enough to still be going to REM shows in 2008 were really mostly Republicans. Whatchagonnado?

  147. 147.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Violet:

    Do you know what is inherently wrong with Christie’s warped notion that Springsteen is “… telling us that rich people like him are fucking over poor people like us in the audience, except that us in the audience aren’t poor, because we can afford to pay 98 bucks to him to see his show. That’s what he’s saying.”

    Springsteen actually has earned his fortune by producing something. This is totally unlike most of the 1%, who got there by falling out of the right uterus.

    Springsteen’s kids will need to prove on their own that they’re worthy of the fortune they’re going to inherit, which, for example, Donald Trump never has.

    Christie’s failure to understand this is just one reason why he’s an asshole.

  148. 148.

    Chyron HR

    I can empathize with Christie. I remember how I felt when Genesis, a band that I’d followed since the 70s, called me out for having an invisible touch, yeah, that takes control and slowly tears you apart.

    It hurt. A lot.

  149. 149.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Tommy:

    There’s also the energy gradient of producing a pound of beef vs. a pound of veggies.

    It’s pretty complicated, and numbers scare a lot of people. We’ve made it very easy to ignore the entire chain of energy involved in producing foodstuffs. Most people when asked where their hamburger comes from will simply say “Burger King” or “The grocery store” and leave it at that, with no knowledge at all of where Burger King or Kroger got it from.

  150. 150.

    gene108

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    The issue isn’t eating meat per se, but how the resources used to raise animals for slaughter. The acreage of crops that are grown to feed the cows, chickens and pigs that end up on your plate could be used to grow food for human consumption, if we ate less meat.

    And this does not get into the whole industrial meat growing industry, where antibiotics and other things are used to keep animals alive in unsanitary conditions.

    There are a lot of things – from crop subsidies to subsidies of industrial meat farms – that distort the actual cost and impact of meat consumption.

    It’s sort of like how many on the Left bemoan the subsidies for Big Oil that continue our dependence on fossil fuels by making fossil fuels relatively inexpensive compared to other energy sources.

    It’s not a “natural” state of things that gas in the U.S. is as inexpensive as it is compared to the rest of the world.

    The same way it is not the “natural” state of things that the sort of industrial meat production and subsequent consumption in the U.S. is not the product of distorted economic incentives that do have environmental consequences.

    Either we overhaul our subsidy programs or we “boycott” meat by eating less.

    Between 1961 and 2002, meat consumption has seen a large increase virtually worldwide and a corresponding jump in its environmental impact.

    Links between meat consumption and climate change have been widely known for many years, partly due to deforestation in the Amazon rainforest to make room for the livestock. Clearing these forests is estimated to produce a staggering 17% of global greenhouse gas emissions, more than the entire transport sector.

    Increased meat-eating has followed rising affluence in many parts of the world. China’s levels doubled between 1990 and 2002. Back in 1961, the Chinese consumed a mere 3.6kg per person, while in 2002 they reached 52.4kg each; half of the world’s pork is now consumed in China.

    The US and the UK are among the few countries whose meat consumption levels have remained relatively stable. Surprisingly, it is not the US with the largest consumption (124.8), but Denmark with a shocking 145.9kg per person in 2002.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/datablog/2009/sep/02/meat-consumption-per-capita-climate-change

    The growth of the meat industry mirrors the rise in global population, but increasing gross domestic product per capita in developing countries boosts the demand even higher, Mooney said. Generally, in developing countries when people have more money, they increase the meat and animal products in their diets, he noted.

    To meet the rising global demand for cheap protein, livestock production has grown increasingly more industrialized.

    “The livestock industry is changing really rapidly in this country and elsewhere,” said Falcon, deputy director of Stanford’s Program on Food Security and the Environment and a senior fellow at the Woods Institute. Falcon grew up on an Iowa cattle farm. In his lifetime, he’s seen a 90 percent reduction in the number of small feedlots near his childhood home.

    Small farms with free-roaming animals are disappearing in many parts of the world, he said. Currently, three-quarters of the world’s poultry supply, half of the pork and two-thirds of the eggs come from industrial meat factories, according to the FAO.

    The concentration of livestock increases the environmental burden, Falcon added. “Issues, like runoff and odor, that were present in rather small and diverse quantities 40 years ago have now become concentrated and significant,” he said.

    The meat industry also has a significant impact on global warming. Livestock production accounts for 18 percent of global greenhouse gas emissions, including 9 percent of carbon dioxide and 37 percent of methane gas emissions worldwide, according to the Livestock, Environment and Development (LEAD) Initiative, an international consortium of government and private agencies based at FAO headquarters in Rome.

    https://woods.stanford.edu/environmental-venture-projects/consequences-increased-global-meat-consumption-global-environment

  151. 151.

    Tommy

    @Frankensteinbeck: Lets see if I can explain myself. My mom and dad are Republicans. My dad worked many years for the DoD. He always taught me that war is hell. Sure that is a catch phrase but one that he meant. War is not cool. Not even close to cool. When teaching at the Army War College his first book he made folks read was Sun Tzu’s The Art of War. In it is said if you have to fight you have already lost. The goal of a strong military is NOT to fight. That is my mindset when I think of war.

  152. 152.

    shortstop

    I understand why people like to eat meat and I understand that moral judgments on the eating of meat vary widely among people. What I really don’t get is how people can deny the demonstrated negative environmental effects of meat production. That kind of alternate reality/refusal to accept empirical data is really more of a Republican thing.

  153. 153.

    raven

    @Karen in GA: I couldn’t really tell but I’m betting it was mostly asshole frat boy types, you know, Mornin Joe. It certainly wasn’t because he wasn’t liberal enough then, this was the first prez run.

    REM always had a special sale in Athens for their ATL shows. No price break but really good seats down front.

  155. 155.

    Tommy

    @shortstop: That is the thing isn’t it.

    I don’t often eat meat, but my gosh I love meat. I mean throw swine on something and it is better. What I have learned is how to moderate my intake of meat. It wasn’t that hard to do. I almost don’t even know I am doing it.

  156. 156.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @shortstop: I don’t think people (for the most part) are denying the effects of current methods of meat production or denying that meat consumption should be dialed back. There is pushback against sparrow’s point way up near the top that we can forget about eating meat.

  157. 157.

    raven

    @gene108: “Got in a little home town jam, sent me off to Vietnam. . . .”my life story along with the Bellamy’s “He was sure back in the sixties that everyone was hip
    Then they sent him off to Vietnam on his senior trip”

  159. 159.

    elm

    @gene108:

    There are a lot of things – from crop subsidies to subsidies of industrial meat farms – that distort the actual cost and impact of meat consumption.

    The concentration of livestock increases the environmental burden, Falcon added. “Issues, like runoff and odor, that were present in rather small and diverse quantities 40 years ago have now become concentrated and significant,” he said.

    Falcon is unnecessarily polite in referring to “runoff and odor”.

    Even so-called “small farms” (claimed to be sustainable) with dozens or hundreds of animals produce large ponds of festering, rotting shit and piss.

    Large-scale animal farming produces huge lakes of rotting animal shit and piss.

    The noxious gasses produced by factory-scale chicken enclosures would (and do) kill every animal present if the forced-air ventilation fails even temporarily.

    Edit: FYWP

  161. 161.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Karen in GA:

    right now, someone far enough to the left to make me happy wouldn’t get elected.

    True in down-ballot/midterm/local races as well. I spent a good chunk of yesterday in Athens at an intensive volunteer training session for the Michelle Nunn for Senate campaign. A bunch of us were talking afterwards and every one of us said something like this — she’s not nearly as liberal or progressive as we’d like, but this is Georgia. We’re not going to have an Elizabeth Warren down here, and Nunn is as viable a candidate as we can field at this point. Therefore, I will work hard and enthusiastically for her.

  164. 164.

    ranchandsyrup

    @Cervantes: Great summation of winger thinking from Judge Friedman

    “In sum, while there is more than one plausible reading of the challenged phrase…when viewed in isolation, the cross-referenced sections, the surrounding provisions, and the ACA’s structure and purpose all evince Congress’s intent to make premium tax credits available on both state-run and federally-facilitated Exchanges.”

  165. 165.

    Trollhattan

    @Dee Loralei:

    You’re in my thoughts. As hard as this is, being there is ultimately a blessing regardless of the outcome. I was not, for my mother or father, to my regret.

  166. 166.

    Belafon

    @Violet: Yeah, if Bruce would only live like the poor people he’s trying to describe, then Christie would understand them better.

    You can’t be rich and try to help the poor, it’s hypocritical. If people like Bruce, or the Pope, would just give all their money away, suddenly we’d be in a utopia where no one would ever starve. No thinking or policy would ever have to change.

  168. 168.

    shortstop

    @Frankensteinbeck: Almost half of Indians — a whole lotta folks! — are vegetarian, and there are vegetarians by choice in non-insignificant numbers across most of the globe. In addition to purposeful vegetarians, there are numerous places on earth in which people don’t eat meat because they can’t afford it.

    I didn’t see WereBear’s comment until now, but I’m not sure why the measure is supposed to be “Find me a culture in which no meat is eaten” when my point was simply that a whole lot of people worldwide manage without it. That was a response to WereBear’s incorrect statement that humans must eat animal products to live (a comment she attempted to support by naming a nutrient that’s actually a product of bacteria).

  170. 170.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Belafon: “If you think taxes should be higher then just send more money to the government.” I’ve actually heard that one.

  171. 171.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @raven:

    I’m betting it was mostly asshole frat boy types,

    A major component of the deserting coward’s base. Asshole frat boy types, like him.

  172. 172.

    Karen in GA

    @SiubhanDuinne: Thank you for helping to fight the good fight. Also, thank you for mentioning it here — it reminds me to see if there’s anything I can do on her campaign, if only to cancel out my boss and the Karen Handel for Senate bumper sticker on her BMW.

  173. 173.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The problem of course is that the people who benefit the most from the invisible infrastructure of society are the ones who are most resistant to actually paying for it.

    Your income is a good measurement of how much you are benefiting from that invisible invisible structure. PARTICULARLY ‘unearned” income, i.e. capital gains.

    Capital gains should ALWAYS be taxed at higher percentages than salaries, wages or pensions.

  175. 175.

    StringOnAStick

    @Omnes Omnibus: My husband and I were close to vegetarian (eggs, chicken, and fish) for a long time, and my health went seriously downhill, mostly due to an undiscovered wheat allergy. We eat meat now, not a lot, and only if it is pastured, including the eggs. Part of that decision was to very rarely eat out anymore, mainly because we don’t want to eat what we call ” torture chicken”, “torture beef”, etc. Yes, it costs a ton more, but I suspect that part of why meat consumption is so high in the US is because it is too damned cheap, thanks to our completely distorted ag economics that subsidize grains so heavily. We’re lucky to live in a fairly progressive part of CO, and you can actually find places to eat out here that have the same standards. Will it save the planet? No, but at least our dollars aren’t subsidizing cruel and inhumane CAFO operations.

    Frankly, nothing is going to save the planet other than a massive pandemic that thins our herd back to sustainable levels and even then we’ve left messes that have to be maintained so they don’t go critical, so saving the planet falls into the ‘probably not after all’ category; if/when it happens, it will likely be an influenza pandemic or some other virus (unless the coming resource wars do it first). Thoughts like these, and that fact that I spend too much time reading stuff like this here and elsewhere, is why I went back on anti-depressants, why I can’t look at little kids without feeling a bit sad, and why I’m glad I’m not one of them.

  176. 176.

    elm

    As a practical matter for anyone who wants to follow a vegan, vegetarian, or partially-vegetarian diet, I would personally stay away from health-food stores. In my experience, health food store employees aren’t very knowledgeable about human nutrition and fairly-often express non-scientific or anti-scientific beliefs which range from harmless (ear candling & chakra-realignment) to dangerous (vaccine-denialism and sketchy “cleansing” diets/products).

    The simplest and safest starting point is to reduce the amount of animal flesh in your diet, increase your intake of fresh produce, and — if necessary — add a B-vitamin supplement and (optionally) a protein supplement (15-20g/day should be plenty).

  177. 177.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @shortstop: Thing is, it doesn’t really matter does it? Because we didn’t do what we should have done decades ago, not eating meat isn’t going to be a choice anymore. Sooner, not later.

  178. 178.

    EconWatcher

    When I was in college in the mid and late 80s, the music snobs who were always talking about “alternative” music all professed to loathe, really loathe Bruce. I never got that.

    His lyrics are thougtful, he genuinely has something he wants to say, and his tunes are catchy. Plus, the guy really works hard; I saw a documentary once about the production of one of his albums, and he’s just an obsessive perfectionist and a workaholic when he’s in a creative mode.

    Maybe it’s not your cup of tea, but I never understood the disrespect. Just snottiness, I think. He’s not a tool just because so many people like him and buy his stuff. Seems like a great guy.

  181. 181.

    Mnemosyne

    @StringOnAStick:

    Frankly, nothing is going to save the planet …

    See, this is where our human-centric viewpoint fails us. The planet will be just fine, because the planet is happy to kill us humans off in order to preserve itself. The planet continued on for millions of years after the mass die-off of the large dinosaurs and it will continue on for millions more after humans are extinct.

    The reason to protect the planet is self-preservation, because the planet doesn’t care about human survival.

  182. 182.

    J R in WV

    @Dee Loralei:

    There are no strangers in a hospital. None.

    Not too many here either. My brother didn’t call for xmas, or my birthday. He’s a Texas life member of the NRA and probably still has a G W Bush sticker on his BIG SUV.

    I’m sorry your sister seems to be avoiding you, it isn’t like you need extra stress right now.

    Hang in there. We are all pulling for you, as hard as we can.

    And don’t forget to take care of yourself, any way you can figure out to relax a little.

    And keep us posted on how you do when things change.

  183. 183.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @EconWatcher: Early to mid-80s here and there seemed to be an exception for Bruce. He was acceptable despite his popularity. Put him in a category like Neil Young.

  184. 184.

    rikyrah

    This Democrat thinks he can win in 2016 as the anti-Obama
    01/15/14 04:00 AM—Updated 01/15/14 12:11 PM
    By Benjy Sarlin

    Brian Schweitzer, the former two-term Democratic governor of Montana, is rarely speechless. Once he gets going on a topic, he’s almost impossible to stop. As he builds up steam, he’ll slap his knee to emphasize his points. He’ll slap your knee to emphasize his points. Good luck getting a word in edgewise for that follow-up question.

    But at the moment, Schweitzer is rubbing his chin, looking up at the ceiling, searching – unsuccessfully – for just the right words. The question was simple enough: Is there a single thing President Obama has done that you consider a positive achievement?

    Finally, he spoke.

    “My mother, God rest her soul, told me ‘Brian, if you can’t think of something nice to say about something change the subject,’” he said.

    But he couldn’t help himself, slamming Obama’s record on civil liberties (the NSA revelations were “un-effing-believable”), his competency (“They just haven’t been very good at running things”), and above all, Obamacare (“It will collapse on its own weight”).

    Eventually, he paused to acknowledge Obama’s historic role as the first black president. But by that standard, Obama’s usefulness ended the day he took the oath of office.

    http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/dem-thinks-he-can-win-the-anti-obama

  185. 185.

    tesslibrarian

    @Dee Loralei: Sending you hugs, because it is so hard when the person you love just feels done. It’s happened to many of my friends with their parents and grandparents, and it just hurts. My grandmother also waited until she was alone to let go; my uncle had not even made it to the parking lot before his phone rang.
    That said, it’s good to ask about the antidepressants; some meds can trigger depression and it is possible she may not be herself right now. You can probably tell if she sounds like herself. Listen, trust yourself, and don’t forget to take care of yourself.

  186. 186.

    chopper

    @KG:

    I don’t believe that eating meat is terrible for the planet.

    how isn’t it? i brought up pastured meat, i understand the difference. but that isn’t what americans eat. by a vast majority the stuff americans eat is lots and lots of stuff whose production is just god-awful for the planet.

    you can point at pastured meat and say ‘see, meat is fine’. i’m not saying there’s something inherently wrong with all meat. i’m saying there’s something wrong with the vast majority of the meat americans eat, which is what actually matters here.

  187. 187.

    kdaug

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Eventually, a balance will be found, but humanity will not care for the way it’s achieved.

    This.

    Don’t worry about the planet. It will be fine.

    Worry about the fauna.

  188. 188.

    rikyrah

    Judge Rejects Lawsuit Aimed At Blowing Up Obamacare

    Sahil Kapur – January 15, 2014, 1:41 PM EST2073

    A legal challenge seeking to cripple Obamacare suffered a huge setback Wednesday as it was defeated in federal court.

    The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia ruled against the challengers, who argued that that the text of Obamacare did not allow the law’s premium tax credits to be offered on federal insurance exchanges — that they must only be available through state-based exchanges.

    Judge Paul L. Friedman called that argument “unpersuasive,” saying it didn’t pass legal muster and ran counter to the central purpose of the Affordable Care Act.

    “Plaintiffs’ proposed construction in this case – that tax credits are available only for those purchasing insurance from state-run Exchanges – runs counter to this central purpose of the ACA: to provide affordable health care to virtually all Americans,” Friedman wrote in a 39-page decision. “Such an interpretation would violate the basic rule of statutory construction that a court must interpret a statute in light of its history and purpose.”

    His reasoning? The federal exchanges — which the Obama administration is constructing for 34 states that declined to build their own — “would have no customers, and no purpose” if the challengers’ logic were adopted.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/obamacare-lawsuit-dc-judge-friedman-halbig-sebelius?utm_content=buffer2806d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

  190. 190.

    scav

    @Omnes Omnibus: Pretty much this, the evangelical high-horsiness of many of the enlightened saved gets old, even to people that don’t eat a lot of the meaty stuff. And, if we’re going to examine production chains, the costs and impacts thereof, let us also remember to attend to the international jet-setting of the vegetable class, their current lack of seasons for many and why so many are now sold precut and with packaging out the wazoo. Things, as always, be complex. Even analyses of organic and sustainable production get interesting, especially when the non-monetary impacts on the local farmers get factored in. Lots of factors. There’s a fair bit more that needs to be worked out than just ‘drop the red stuff’.

  191. 191.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Dee Loralei: Thinking of you and your family. I don’t have words to make it more tolerable, obviously, but i will keep you in my thoughts.

  192. 192.

    chopper

    @Gin & Tonic:

    see, this is part of the problem. you point out that for your average american cutting your meat intake is easy (it is), better for you (it is) and better for the earth (it is) and people get defensive about it. part of it is the fact that is really is so easy. people want to act like it’s all difficult so they can rationalize keeping it up.

    so it’s ‘hectoring’. also, al gore is fat and has a big house.

  193. 193.

    rikyrah

    NC: Steal From the Poor, Play Jim Crow

    by BooMan
    Wed Jan 15th, 2014 at 12:22:42 PM EST

    I was never a fan of the Republican Party but it didn’t used to be like this. It has always been a party primarily concerned with rich people, but they did not used to be cruel. And they used to have some shame.

    The 900,000 poorest working families in North Carolina just got another tax hike from the conservatives who swept state legislature elections in 2010.
    The change took effect at the beginning of 2014, meaning that the taxes those families file this spring will be the last to feature the state’s tax break for the working poor. The provision, known as the Earned Income Tax Credit or EITC, will also be 10 percent less generous in its final year. State-level EITCs work by tacking on an additional benefit to the federal EITC, and the law repealing North Carolina’s EITC for 2014 also cut the credit from 5 percent to 4.5 percent of the federal benefit.

    In order to qualify for the federal or state-level tax credit, tax filers must earn less than about $50,000. The goal of the credit is to buoy the incomes of working people whose employers pay them too little to provide the economic stability that having a job is supposed to ensure.

    So, they take away money from nearly a million working North Carolinians and then what do they do with the money savings?

    Along with the disappearance of the EITC, low-income North Carolinians will be paying higher taxes in order to pay for a tax cut for the richest people in the state. Republicans moved from a two-tiered, progressive income tax system to a flat tax rate of 5.8 percent. A person who earns a million dollars per year will get a roughly $10,000 tax cut thanks to that move, but the bottom 80 percent of the income distribution will see their taxes rise. That means that four out of five taxpayers in the state were going to pay more next year even before the EITC repeal

    They’re not satisfied with screwing over working folks, though. Check this out:

    http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2014/1/15/122242/057

  194. 194.

    Violet

    About meat eating–we don’t eat the whole animal like people used to. How often do we eat liver? Tongue? When’s the last time you ate soup with chicken feet? When I lived in a third world country we routinely had the entire chicken on “chicken day”. They’d kill a chicken and use the entire thing, even the head. In fact everyone besides me fought over who got to eat the chicken head. Delicacy.

    At the gigantic Asian supermarket chain supermarket that’s not too far from me they sell all sorts of things the average American doesn’t even think of eating–pigs’ uteruses, chicken feet, intestines from every animal. The entire animal is sold, even the bones. “Meat” goes a lot farther when you eat the whole animal. And there are various nutrients in organs and bones that are harder to get from the muscle cuts of meat.

  195. 195.

    chopper

    @sparrow:

    exactly. there is no vitamin, mineral or amino or fatty acid that you must eat over half a pound of meat a day to obtain healthy amounts of if you have a balanced diet.

    people eat 200 pounds of meat a year in this country, on average, because we like it. you can cut your meat intake in half and it would still be pretty big.

  196. 196.

    rikyrah

    Governor’s Crazy Reason For Denying Representation To Minority-Heavy District: ‘Not Much Goes On’

    By Josh Israel on January 15, 2014 at 10:28 am

    North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory (R) dismissed concerns that a district with a majority of non-white voters may go unrepresented for an entire year, suggesting that delaying the special election until November would not hurt citizens because Congress gets nothing done in the fall anyway. Though Rep. Mel Watt (D) resigned his seat on the first day of the legislative year to become director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency, Governor Pat McCrory (R) announced last Monday that his replacement will not be elected until November 4.

    The comments came on MSNBC’s The Daily Rundown on Wednesday. Host Chuck Todd grilled McCrory on why nearly 1 million citizens in North Carolina’s 12th Congressional District — which which includes a long swath of central North Carolina running from Charlotte to Greensboro and has a majority of voters who are minorities — will have no representative for more than 300 days. McCrory noted that under his state’s election law, he could only have sped up the elections by a couple of months at best:

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/01/15/3164621/north-carolina-governor-unrepresented-district/

  197. 197.

    Mnemosyne

    @chopper:

    better for you (it is)

    Sorry, facts not in evidence. A vegetarian diet is better for some people, but there is no evidence that it’s better for everyone. Please don’t quote Physicians for Responsible Medicine since they’re a vegetarian advocacy group, not an unbiased source.

    In most countries, it’s the elites who have access to meat, and the poorer classes who are denied access to it, generally not of their own free will.

    (You know why John Wayne purportedly had “pounds” of undigested meat in his colon when he died? Because he had colon cancer and his body was physically incapable of digesting food. Elvis Presley was an opiate addict, and opiates shut down your digestive system.)

  198. 198.

    schrodinger's cat

    @shortstop:

    Almost half of Indians — a whole lotta folks! — are vegetarian

    I am not sure that is true. It is a myth that vegetarians form a majority in India, however meat is seen as more of an accompaniment than as the main course and vegetables and grains supply most of the nutrition. Also, Indian vegetarians rely heavily on milk and milk products.

  199. 199.

    gene108

    @raven:

    I know Born in the USA is an unflattering critique of the trouble Vietnam veterans had in both being sent there and returning to the U.S., especially with regards to drug use and homelessness.

    It’s just, if all you hear is the refrain, it is catchy. Take the refrain totally out context of the rest of the song – which politicians seem to want to do – and you have an upbeat, campaign friendly, theme song for a candidate.

  200. 200.

    elm

    @Violet:

    About meat eating–we don’t eat the whole animal like people used to.

    Not to defend U.S. meat-production and eating practices, but USians do eat the whole animal, it’s just about labeling. Instead of labeling things as “tongue” or “anus”, we have “hot dogs”. With chicken, it’s chicken nuggets.

  201. 201.

    scav

    @Violet: The nation also tosses how many vegetables because they’re not “pretty enough” which is part of the same package — enormous amount of waste in the current lifestyle.

  202. 202.

    dr. luba

    @EconWatcher: I go back a bit farther than you, but part of it was all the hype: Newsweek and Time covers, back when that really meant something.Still, the coolest girl I ever met was a huge fan of his before he hit it big.

    And Bruce did go more “commercial” with The River.

    I was a punk, but liked him. And Nebraska just blew me away. Still does. I finally saw him live a few years ago, and he was brilliant–even if he didn’t know what city he was in.

    I always loved Neil Young, even back when I was a junior high school girl trying to figure out rock.

  204. 204.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @chopper: Maybe I am misreading everything here (it’s happened before; it’ll happen again), but I don’t see anyone arguing that eating 200 pounds of meat a year is necessary, good, or advisable. No one is saying that the current system of produce meat is viable. People are saying that vegetarianism is not required; you seem to be saying the same thing.

  208. 208.

    J R in WV

    @KG:

    In southern California, there isn’t going to be enough water to drink soon. Given the 25% snow pack around Tahoe this may happen really soon. So I think spending money on public transit there is a bad idea.

    Spending money on public transportation in places where there will be people living, on the other hand, isn’t optional, it is a requirement, if we plan to maintain a technological civilization.

  209. 209.

    EconWatcher

    @gene108:

    Republicans who like “Born in the USA” make me think of the Ford family when they commissioned Diego Rivera to do a mural about the auto industry (now displayed at the Detroit Institute of Arts). Rivera was a Trotskyist, and his mural is rather obviously about oppression and class struggle on the shop floor. I wonder if the Fords ever realized how much Rivera must have laughed as he cashed their checks…..

  211. 211.

    Chyron HR

    @rikyrah:

    Articles you never saw:

    This Democrat thinks he can win in 2000 as the anti-Clinton
    Al Gore, the two-term Democratic vice president is rarely speechless…

  212. 212.

    schrodinger's cat

    @dr. luba: Indians love their sugar. I think it is the largest producer and consumer of sugar in the world. US is #2. Also Vitamin B deficiencies and iron deficiencies are endemic in India, especially among women.

  213. 213.

    chopper

    @Violet:

    whenever i get a chicken from the farmer’s market or a local one from the store my wife gets grossed out by the feet and neck. and i ask her what she thinks my chicken stock is made from.

  214. 214.

    shortstop

    @schrodinger’s cat: Last time I checked, the UN’s FAO had it at around 42 percent — not a majority, but as I said, almost half. As for milk products, that’s why I said “vegetarian” instead of “vegan.” Lacto-ovo vegetarian, if you like.

  215. 215.

    rikyrah

    The Sopranos Would Have Loved Sandy Aid
    by BooMan
    Tue Jan 14th, 2014 at 11:39:59 PM EST

    Longtime Newark Star-Ledger editorial editor Tom Moran has some observations about Gov. Chris Christie’s predicament:

    It is no surprise that these guys were nasty and petty enough to do something like this. They stripped the security team from [former governor] Sen. Richard Codey (D-Essex) when he dared to push back against them. They cut funding for an internship program run by an elderly Rutgers professor after he sided with Democrats on the redistricting fight. They froze out newly elected Jersey City Mayor Steve Fulop after he refused to endorse the governor. This list goes on. It is Christie’s style.
    The surprise is that they were so stupid about it this time, that they caused hardship for thousands of people as if that would not blow back at them, and then put it all in writing for investigators to find.

    Note to all those who compare Christie to Tony Soprano: Tony’s crew would have been smart enough to use code words.

    http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2014/1/14/233959/922

  216. 216.

    Mnemosyne

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Also Vitamin B deficiencies and iron deficiencies are endemic in India, especially among women.

    Not at all surprising — Vitamin B and iron deficiencies are common risks of a vegetarian or vegan diet. Most Americans can avoid the problems with food choices and supplements, but I’m guessing those options are not available to most ordinary people in India.

  217. 217.

    dr. luba

    @EconWatcher: The mural was painted for the DIA, and is an integral part of it. And yes, one wonders what made them hire him, and what they expected of him. Still, unlike those Philistines in NYC, they let the mural stand.

    Several years ago, one of Rivera’s descendants was invited to Detroit for the Dia del Muertos, and did an installation in the Rivera Court. I remember lots of marigolds, the flowers of the dead.

  220. 220.

    chopper

    @Mnemosyne:

    you think the fact that most all factory chicken is tainted with salmonella makes it good for you? you think that the huge amounts of red meat americans eat doesn’t lead to heart disease? that the screwed-up ratios of omega fatty acids in factory meat are just as good as those in pastured meat?

    again, i’m not talking about all meat. i’m talking about the stuff americans eat by and large, and in the amounts we eat them. 200 pounds of meat a year is not good for americans’ health, nor is it good for the planet.

  221. 221.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    If meat were seen as more of an accompaniment than as the main course and vegetables and grains supplied most of the nutrition/calories, I suspect we’d be a lot healthier. Not to mention eating, well, smaller quantities.

  225. 225.

    rikyrah

    Joe Scarborough Can’t Figure Out Why Morning Joe Is Covering ‘Tedious’ Bridgegate
    by Evan McMurry | 8:57 am, January 15th, 2014

    Arguing that the Bridgegate story had become tedious without any proof that New Jersey Governor Chris Christie had knowledge of lane closures on the George Washington Bridge last September, Morning Joe host Joe Scarboroughwondered at the excess of attention paid to the story, including on his own show.

    “The story can now officially be labelled tedious,”Mike Barnacle said. “It’s so overblown. Again, if nothing occurs, nothing comes out, the story dies.”

    “Right now, we’re just reading the tea leaves,” Scarborough said. “I guess people can keep putting this—I didn’t want to put it at the top of the show, because I thought it was tedious. But Mika said some things broke yesterday, where he was, the timeline.”

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/joe-scarborough-cant-figure-out-why-morning-joe-is-covering-tedious-bridgegate/

  226. 226.

    Mnemosyne

    @chopper:

    you think the fact that most all factory chicken is tainted with salmonella makes it good for you? you think that the huge amounts of red meat americans eat doesn’t lead to heart disease? that the screwed-up ratios of omega fatty acids in factory meat are just as good as those in pastured meat?

    That wasn’t your claim. Your claim was that a vegetarian diet is inherently better than a diet that includes meat. I am disputing that claim.

    And, no, red meat doesn’t lead to heart disease. The current understanding is that processed meat causes heart disease.

  227. 227.

    Andrey

    @Violet:

    About meat eating–we don’t eat the whole animal like people used to. How often do we eat liver? Tongue? When’s the last time you ate soup with chicken feet? When I lived in a third world country we routinely had the entire chicken on “chicken day”. They’d kill a chicken and use the entire thing, even the head. In fact everyone besides me fought over who got to eat the chicken head. Delicacy.

    This is a misconception. We use at least as much of the animal as we used to, and in most cases we use more. The difference is that it’s not “ordinary people” using those other chunks of the animal. Liver, tongue, etc. don’t go to waste just because they’re not out there in the supermarket – they get combined into other products, or they get processed for use in pharmaceuticals, or in industrial processes, etc. Even a bunch of the “waste” actually ends up being used in another way somewhere down the line.

    People talk dismissively about “processed meat product” and stuff like that, but that’s exactly what using the whole animal looks like. Processed meat product isn’t a delicious steak, but it is a whole bunch of little animal chunks that would have been thrown out in the old days and which can be combined for human consumption because of modern practices.

  228. 228.

    chopper

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    People are saying that vegetarianism is not required; you seem to be saying the same thing.

    of course. i’m just saying that meat production and consumption as it is done in the US is bad for people’s health and bad for the environment, and that it is balls easy for people to cut their meat intake a great deal to help alleviate both of those problems.

  229. 229.

    schrodinger's cat

    @shortstop: Yes, Jains are strict vegetarians, whereas among Hindus there is a lot of variation, many coastal Brahmin castes eat fish but not beef and pork. Kashmiri Pundits eat beef but not garlic and so on. Most Gujarati and Marwari Hindus irrespective of their caste are vegetarians and so on. It can get pretty confusing.

    ETA: Muslim, Parsis and Christians have fewer dietary restrictions about meat eating. Also too, many Sikhs are vegetarians.

  230. 230.

    shortstop

    @Mnemosyne:

    Your claim was that a vegetarian diet is inherently better than a diet that includes meat.

    That’s what you got from this?

    for your average american cutting your meat intake is easy (it is), better for you (it is) and better for the earth (it is)

  231. 231.

    Violet

    @elm: True enough. I was thinking that if you don’t eat those processed products then you probably don’t eat the whole animal. If you buy boneless, skinless chicken breasts then that’s what you’re getting. You’re not getting chicken anus or whatever in that.

    @scav: Yeah, I think waste of food is a huge deal. I grow a lot of my own vegetables and while I’ll cut away bad spots, they veg scraps always go into the compost bin so they’re never truly wasted.

    When I go out to eat, the portions are so gigantic I can’t really finish them. And some things don’t keep all that well to take home and eat again. Or I’m in a situation where I’m not going directly home or to a place with a fridge so I can’t take it with me. I wish restaurants would serve normal portions.

  232. 232.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @chopper:

    i’m just saying that meat production and consumption as it is done in the US is bad for people’s health and bad for the environment, and that it is balls easy for people to cut their meat intake a great deal to help alleviate both of those problems.

    Right, but no one is arguing with that.

  233. 233.

    Mnemosyne

    @chopper:

    And yet you said this:

    and pastured meat is great, but this country cannot by any means provide as much pastured meat and poultry as the conventional stuff we eat every day.

    So which is it? We have to cut out all meat, because even the pastured stuff is unsustainable, or pastured meat is okay? You keep switching your argument.

  234. 234.

    Violet

    @Andrey: I take your point, and I know the food manufacturers don’t waste anything (like they use “pink slime”). And honestly, I’m glad they don’t because if it can be used it should be. My point was more in the eating of the meat. Something ending up in pharmaceuticals where no one has any idea it’s chicken beak or lamb sphincter or whatever is not the same as low level processing and including the whole animal into your regular diet. With all that processing, are the nutrients still there and bio-available?

  235. 235.

    chopper

    @Mnemosyne:

    Your claim was that a vegetarian diet is inherently better than a diet that includes meat.

    in never claimed that. i’ve said this whole time that people should cut their meat intake, not that vegetarianism is the best way. i have pushed back against people claiming that ‘avoiding animal products doesn’t work’ by pointing out that non-meat animal products help provide other vitamins, minerals etc. just fine. i’m clearly okay with animal products, and i’m clearly okay with eating a modest amount of meat as long as it’s produced in an environmentally responsible way.

    in the beginning i pushed back against someone dismissing vegetarianism after being told by someone else that you should cut out meat to help the environment. because i took the former person as accepting the point but dismissing it nonetheless, which i think is stupid. if somebody tells you that eating meat is bad for the earth and you accept that and say ‘who cares’, you’re being dumb.

  236. 236.

    Mnemosyne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I’m not quite sure who chopper is arguing with. Even the pro-meat crowd here isn’t arguing that our way of producing it or processing it is good for us, or that Americans as a group don’t eat too much of it — they’re only arguing against the notion that eating meat is inherently bad for you and that a vegetarian diet is the best diet for everyone. Most evidence seems to support Michael Pollan’s position: “Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.”

    Three ounces of cooked meat is a serving. About the size of a deck of cards.

  237. 237.

    Tone In DC

    @Origuy:

    “Secretary of state John Kerry – who arrived here determined, and who operates from an incomprehensible obsession and a sense of messianism – can’t teach me anything about the conflict with the Palestinians,” Ya’alon was quoted as saying

    Trying to fix one of the most intractable international problems EVER makes Kerry “messianic”? Paying attention to this costly, bloody quagmire is “obsessive”?

    I miss Rabin. I truly do.

  241. 241.

    shortstop

    @Mnemosyne:

    You keep switching your argument.

    No, he or she really doesn’t; chopper has been consistent throughout this thread in arguing for the benefits and achievability of cutting down meat consumption. This person has said repeatedly that vegetarianism isn’t the only path to that. Slow down, stop arguing with the empty chair and really read what he or she has actually said.

  242. 242.

    scav

    @Violet: Pigs used to help a lot with the ‘composting’ efforts, sort of really big and tasty edible worms. Well, we can eat worms and there is that problem of pigs being a test tube for human diseases living in close proximity. Pluses and minuses. If we ever get the mowing and kuszu cleanup teams of goats and sheep going (cutting down on fossil fuels), they might as well go into the pot at the end of their careers. I rather expect to see a variety of solutions adopted, inevitably none of them perfect, but at least more locally feasible than the one-size fits all and is morally pure theorizing.

  243. 243.

    chopper

    @Mnemosyne:

    So which is it? We have to cut out all meat, because even the pastured stuff is unsustainable, or pastured meat is okay? You keep switching your argument.

    you’re not reading what i’ve written here.

    no, we don’t have to cut out all meat. i never said that. not once. i defend vegetarianism but that doesn’t mean i think we need to cut out all meat.

    pastured meat is great.

    providing enough pastured meat, however, to provide the amount of meat americans currently eat would not really work. because we eat so much meat.

    so ‘pastured meat’, in and of itself, is not a solution. cutting consumption has to occur as well.

  244. 244.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @rikyrah:

    Local fishwrap had a very birdcage lining worthy commentary by the vile Jonah Goldberg who is “baffled” by the media’s attention on the Christie situation. Can’t imagine why they’re interested in this and not, say, Obama’s direct involvement in the IRS ‘scandal’.

  245. 245.

    Mnemosyne

    @chopper:

    in the beginning i pushed back against someone dismissing vegetarianism after being told by someone else that you should cut out meat to help the environment. because i took the former person as accepting the point but dismissing it nonetheless, which i think is stupid.

    I think you misunderstood or misread the original argument. As I understood it, arguer A was saying that people could cut meat and/or animal products out of their diet with no consequences to their health, and arguer B was disputing that specific point. It wasn’t an argument in favor of continuing down our current, unsustainable path of meat production, it was an argument against the frequent claims of vegetarians and vegans that a vegetarian/vegan diet is better for everyone, full stop.

    As a group, Americans eat too many animal products (not just meat, but also eggs and milk), but the fact that we eat too much of them isn’t proof they can be cut out entirely.

  247. 247.

    Villago Delenda Est

    How we got from a Fallon/Springsteen duet to carnivore humans vs. omnivore humans vs. vegetarian humans is one of the wonders of Balloon Juice.

  251. 251.

    scav

    @shortstop: Nobody really, except at the very top where the moral options were dragged in. Sparrow’s initial comment wasn’t nuanced and chopper dragged in morality once (not using much later). It’s just a part of my general theme that emphasizes the complexity of the issue, or at least that is what I was aiming for — not aimed at anyone here specifically.

  252. 252.

    chopper

    @Mnemosyne:

    I think you misunderstood or misread the original argument. As I understood it, arguer A was saying that people could cut meat and/or animal products out of their diet with no consequences to their health, and arguer B was disputing that specific point.

    first off, person A (sparrow) didn’t say cutting animal products. he/she said cutting meat out of their diet. second, sparrow didn’t say anything about health consequences one way or the other in that post. merely the environment. third, person B (KG) merely shrugged that off with ‘cutting out meat? that’s probably not gonna happen’.

  253. 253.

    shortstop

    @Mnemosyne:

    chopper kinda did, when he told WereBear that it was her own fault a vegetarian diet didn’t work for her.

    Uh, no. That translation is inaccurate by any reasonable standard, particularly when chopper went to such lengths to explain (again and again) that there is more than one option. You’re boxing shadows again.

  254. 254.

    chopper

    @Mnemosyne:

    pointing out that just because one person didn’t get a vegetarian diet to work doesn’t mean it won’t work for others who want to try it isn’t being being ‘one size fits all’. in point of fact it’s pushing back against a ‘one size fits all’ mentality: vegetarianism didn’t work for me, so it’s not gonna work for others.

  255. 255.

    scav

    @chopper: But come on, that very statement makes the same error, pointing out that one is a counterexample doesn’t imply that everyone is counterexamples. At this point, there seems damn near little that is being contested except purity of moral grounds in each and every comment on the thread.

  256. 256.

    WereBear

    @Mnemosyne: One size does not fit all. A vegetarian or vegan diet does not work for everyone. The fact that a vegetarian or vegan diet has bad consequences for someone’s health is not proof that they didn’t do it right.

    An excellent point and one most beautifully defined in a great book that just came out, Death by Food Pyramid.

    The first third of the book is about the politics and lobbying that gave us the Food Pyramid, and why it’s not good for anyone. The second part is how one should evaluate those studies that get plastered across headlines and the internet, and are usually wrong, and why.

    The last part is really interesting, where the writer explains that one size does not fit all; it has a lot to do with your genetic profile. This was the first time I could look at the science of why vegetarianism didn’t work for me: this grain and starch-heavy diet was one I didn’t have the enzymes for! I couldn’t convert plant protein into nutritional protein, all that starch wasn’t disassembled into nutrient components, it was just dumped into my bloodstream as glucose, and then my pancreas went nuts getting rid of it, which made me hungry… and I ate the wrong things again.

    The research indicates I do best on meat and salad greens and fruit… which is what I’ve been eating for ten years now with great results.

    It’s an awesome read for anyone, full of science and yet accessible.

  257. 257.

    chopper

    @scav:

    well, as to morality, my original point was a moral one: if you believe someone when they say meat is killing the earth, the moral response is not to dismiss it saying ‘yeah, that aint gonna happen’. the moral response would be to say ‘shit, i should stop eating meat then!’

  258. 258.

    shortstop

    @scav:

    purity of moral grounds

    You keep saying this, but I’m not getting it. Most people seem to be trying (some more effectively than others) to trade in facts and data. Where is all this moral judgment you’re seeing coming from? I’m aware of no more than a mention or two, and even that way upthread.

  259. 259.

    Tone In DC

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    I remember that.

    I recall Arafat and Rabin in the 1990s, and that very awkward handshake.
    I was a little kid when Sadat and Begin made history in the 1970s.

    All of that was a long time ago.

  260. 260.

    scav

    @chopper: but, not everyone accepts that it is a 100%, No exceptions made moral precept, you’ve just defined a tight little circle of meaninglessness. “Murder is immoral” is generally accepted and generally comes with exceptions — much argued about exceptions.

  261. 261.

    scav

    @shortstop: Which I acknowledged, so is your point you just don’t want to acknowledge that it’s a part of the general, larger discussion? By all means, let us exclude the larger context.

  263. 263.

    rikyrah

    I find this amusing from a country, that when its President died, had his mistress standing right there next to his wife at the funeral.

    …………………………………………………….

    Monsieur le Président plus one for White House state dinner
    By Julian Pecquet and Emily Goodin

    The French president’s burgeoning sex scandal is emerging as a diplomatic headache for the White House amid uncertainty as to whom exactly François Hollande plans to bring to next month’s state dinner.

    Hollande confessed Tuesday to French and foreign reporters in Paris that he is facing “struggles” in his relationship with his partner, former political reporter Valérie Trierweiler. This admission comes in the wake of reports that he is involved with the 41-year-old French actress Julie Gayet.

    Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs/europe/195484-monsieur-le-president-plus-one-for-white-house-state-dinner#ixzz2qV0jT561
    Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook

  264. 264.

    chopper

    @shortstop:

    i think a lot of people hear someone speak about the bad effects of meat production and consumption in america (as we currently do it) and imagine they’re being lectured to by a PETA pamphlet telling them they’re a horrible person.

  265. 265.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    I gotta go plan dinner. It will be some combination of semi-local free range chicken (w/o antibiotics of course) local, organic, potatoes and acorn squash. With apples sauteed with cinnamon and a touch of vanilla for dessert.

    Mr. Q will be on his own with leftovers tomorrow, as it’s my monthly NAMI educational meeting. This month the Co-Director of Bipolar Research at our med school will discuss treatment options. I rely on the good will and community spirit of those docs tremendously.

  266. 266.

    shortstop

    @scav: It’s not so much dismissing the context as saying that the discussion seems to have shifted long ago, scav. Pretty much no one within the last several hours has defended the points you just said are still being argued in each and every comment. I’m not trying to split hairs, honest Abe. I’m just trying to figure out where this moral opprobrium you’re talking about might be.

  267. 267.

    shortstop

    @chopper: Yes, but scav is about the farthest thing from a thin-skinned knee-jerker we have here, which is why I’m really trying to understand what she’s referring to. But I have to go assemble kitchen cabinets now. No real cooking for me until we get this damn renovation done. Bon appetit, all, and I do mean that.

  268. 268.

    Cervantes

    @EconWatcher:

    He’s just an obsessive perfectionist and a workaholic when he’s in a creative mode.

    For example, The Seeger Sessions: Wonderful.

  269. 269.

    Cervantes

    @scav:

    There’s a fair bit more that needs to be worked out than just ‘drop the red stuff’.

    Sure, but meanwhile, avoid as much of the red stuff as you possibly can.

    It’s not — or should not be — an ideological question.

  270. 270.

    Cervantes

    @Mnemosyne:

    @chopper: better for you (it is)

    Sorry, facts not in evidence. A vegetarian diet is better for some people, but there is no evidence that it’s better for everyone.

    What chopper actually said in that comment:

    for your average american cutting your meat intake is … better for you.

    This is not only beyond debate, it’s a far cry from insisting that everyone should follow a vegetarian diet.

  275. 275.

    Jebediah, RBG

    @Dee Loralei:

    I have no idea how long she is going to last, but she seemed to think it will be soonish

    Shit… what a lot to have to bear. Do what you need to to take care of yourself, and know lots of far-flung people are thinking of you and wishing you well.

  276. 276.

    StringOnAStick

    @WereBear: I also just finished reading Death By Food Pyramid, an excellent read. The history of how we ended up with the food pyramid and the evolution of our grain-dependent, heavily subsidized system of modern agriculture was really eye-opening. It wasn’t just recently that corporate/industry lobbying groups could manipulate government policy to get what they want, and all that excess corn and wheat had to go somewhere…

  277. 277.

    rikyrah

    The Morning Plum: Dems sound alarm about right wing money
    By Greg Sargent
    January 15 at 9:14 am

    Democrats are increasingly alarmed that the Koch-founded Americans for Prosperity is swamping vulnerable Dems with anti-Obamacare ads, leaving them with no way to fight back, the New York Times reports this morning.

    AFP has spent $20 million on ads hitting red state Senate Dems and marginal House members, including nearly $2 million in Michigan and Iowa, most funding ads that blast Dems over Obama’s claim about people keeping coverage and higher costs Obamacare will supposedly bring. Glenn Kessler explains what’s fair and what isn’t in the AFP line of attack, which telegraphs the main GOP messaging this year.

    “Democrats need money at this early stage in order to fight back against the limitless spending from the Kochs,” the head of the DSCC tells the Times. “The limitless spending from the Kochs means we need Democratic donors to step up in a bigger way immediately.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/01/15/the-morning-plum-dems-sound-alarm-about-right-wing-money/

  278. 278.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @rikyrah:

    ZOMG, my email inbox is FILLED with alarms about the various villains in our society spending boatloads of money to unseat various progressive senators (Merkley shared my email address with Franken, Shaheen, Udall, Heidkamp, Warren, etc) and that the only solution is for me to send them some money!

    I’m really not that concerned, because saturation unlimited corporate cash (!) during the 2012 elections didn’t result in a President Romney.. There are only so many ad spots to buy, and at some point, you manage to piss people off with political ads.

  279. 279.

    sparrow

    @StringOnAStick: I agree with you. I eat meat rarely, bought from the farmer’s market, usually. I don’t think people need to become vegans, just stop eating it with every meal. Once per week is enough to not get deficient (and eating sensibly, you can also be a healthy vegetarian). Frankly, many vegetarians that suffer poor health do so because they still make poor choices — lots of refined carbs, sugar, etc. (I know because I did that too for a few years).

  280. 280.

    slippytoad

    @Ash Can:

    Yea, I know that the family said that, but a doctor didn’t as far as I know. The fact is, this woman had EMS called, and it didn’t come in time. Now that could have been from any random traffic jam, but it was in fact Chris Christie’s infantile shitfit traffic jam.

    Suppose there had been a 20-car pileup (which I know never happens in bad traffic)?

    Suppose his own quite-obviously-very-unhealthy ass suddenly needed to get moving along that same expressway?

  281. 281.

    Mnemosyne

    @chopper:

    pointing out that just because one person didn’t get a vegetarian diet to work doesn’t mean it won’t work for others who want to try it isn’t being being ‘one size fits all’.

    No, it was the fact that you blamed WereBear for the failure of her vegetarian diet that turned it into a “one size fits all” comment. Your implication was that the only reason a vegetarian diet fails is because the person doesn’t do vegetarianism “right.”

    Not everyone can be a vegetarian, and I don’t mean that they can’t hack it psychologically or they do it wrong. Physiologically, some people cannot be vegetarians. People should probably try it and see how it works out for them, but if it doesn’t, other people shouldn’t blame them and say the only reason it didn’t work because they didn’t do it “right.”

    Here’s a parallel: it’s best for babies to be breastfed. Some women cannot breast-feed — their milk never comes in. And yet they’re constantly harangued with “breast is best!” and shamed for not doing “what’s best for their baby.”

    Your implication was that WereBear’s vegetarian diet failed not because it’s not right for her body, but because she failed to do it right. That’s the moral shaming that people are talking about.

  282. 282.

    Mnemosyne

    @sparrow:

    Frankly, many vegetarians that suffer poor health do so because they still make poor choices — lots of refined carbs, sugar, etc. (I know because I did that too for a few years).

    So vegetarianism can never fail, it can only be failed?

    I mean, it’s great that it’s working out for you, but can you picture any circumstance under which a vegetarian diet might not be the best choice for someone?

  283. 283.

    chopper

    @Mnemosyne:

    given that you’ve wildly misinterpreted most everything i’ve said in this thread, i’m going to generally ignore your interpretation of my intent in my response to werebear.

  284. 284.

    chopper

    @Mnemosyne:

    sparrow just stated that he/she eats meat from time to time (i.e. is not a vegetarian), that some meat is fine, and that not all (hence the use of the term “many” instead of “all”) vegetarian diets that don’t work out are the fault of poor choices by the eater, i can see your attempts to put people into simple bins by not reading their arguments isn’t merely limited to me.

  286. 286.

    schrodinger's cat

    Why do people get so self righteous about their food choices, its almost like a religion. What I eat is wonderful, what you eat is terrible. Follow my example, or die.

    ETA: The more restrictive their diet, the more vehement they are.

  287. 287.

    Mnemosyne

    @chopper:

    Then what was your intent when you told her “i’m sorry, but just because you didn’t do a great job being a vegetarian doesn’t mean that applies to everyone else.” I’m curious to know, because it sure came across as It’s your personal failure if a vegetarian diet didn’t work for you. Which, again, gets us to “one size fits all” and the notion that anyone can be a vegetarian, and anyone who can’t just isn’t trying hard enough.

    Here’s some real-life anecdata: one of my co-workers was a vegan. He had a rotator cuff injury. He was informed by his doctor that he had to start eating animal protein — preferably fish — because his diet was not allowing him to build the muscle necessary to strengthen his shoulder. My coworker tried multiple kinds of vegan solutions to get more protein, but ultimately he ended up having to eat fish once a day for at least six months, because his body could not build the necessary muscle otherwise and he needed to have a functioning shoulder.

    So was the problem that he “didn’t do a great job” at being a vegan and if he’d just tried harder, he could have found the magical formula to build muscle mass on a vegan diet? Or was the problem that a vegan diet doesn’t provide enough protein to build muscle the way he needed?

  288. 288.

    J R in WV

    @chopper:

    No!

    If you can’t survive in good health without eating meat, then going vegan is nearly suicide.

    We eat grass fed beef, free range chicken, and wild caught fish (although the morality of eating wild caught fish is also debatable, the health is not.) and organic pork. We eat small portions, using meat as one ingredient in complex dishes.

    All this is more expensive than regular meats, but I think it’s worth it to vary your diet and try to eat cleaner meats.

    I was vegetarian for a couple of years, but then I enrolled in college (again) and didn’t have time to address complex cooking methods and recipes. I barely had time to brush my teeth!

    So I started eating student union food, and did OK on it. I didn’t ONLY eat burgers and pizza, but lunch wasn’t garden produce any more. I lived through that, and now we use meat to enrich soups and stews, and casseroles. Sometimes it’s even processed meat, like andouille sausage.

    Every few weeks I’ll even do a pair of hot dogs M, O ,C, and slaw – WV style. I don’t live on dawgs, but if you’re in a hurry and they’re available…

  296. 296.

    elm

    @chopper: Obviously everyone. Haven’t you heard that meat-eaters are the only polite and conscientious people in existence and that existing as a non-meat eater or somebody who avoids it most of the time makes you a dumb fucking hippie?

    A person who abstains from eating meat once existed and, therefore, severely hurt the feelings of a person who does eat meat. As such, it’s vital to perpetuate the anecdote of pushy vegans/vegetarians forever and always.

  297. 297.

    chopper

    @elm:

    jesus, i only advocated americans overall cutting their massive meat intake and i got accused of saying meat is bad for you, that a vegetarian diet is the best diet for everyone, that vegetarianism is inherently better, etc etc. none of which i said at all.

    if only us humans could eat straw, mnemosyne would be able to feed the masses with just her posts in this one thread.

  299. 299.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Karen in GA: And again today I drove past the outsized “Paul Broun for Senate” yard sign.

    Hope I’m not whistling in the dark here, but I don’t get a sense that the opposition has a lot of campaign infrastructure in place — and this is something where Michelle Nunn is miles ahead of, at least, the Dem primary opponents. Not to be complacent.

  301. 301.

    Ruckus

    @Dee Loralei:
    Best wishes for you.
    My story is that my dad had alzheimers and couldn’t make any decisions for the last 10 yrs of his life. I had to decide to put him in hospice, I had to hold him in my arms while he died. The time comes for all of us and it is never easy for anyone. But your mom or dad are of course special and losing them is damned hard.
    Please don’t forget to take care of yourself and the rest of your family.

  302. 302.

    KS in MA

    @Mnemosyne: I get this at my workplace a lot: some people think “cut” means “delete,” other people think “cut” means “reduce.” Chopper is using “cut” to mean “reduce.”

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