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Say What, Man?

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I was struck by the quote from the sociopath prosecutor in Ohio that Mistermix highlighted earlier:

In court proceedings last week, an Ohio state prosecutor said bluntly: “You’re not entitled to a pain-free execution,” and a judge allowed the execution to proceed.

I’m no Constitutional scholar, but I am reasonably sure that somewhere in those little mini pocket Constitutions wingnuts like to carry everywhere, there is something in there that says something to the contrary. Let me check. Oh yeah, it’s right there in the Bill of Rights:

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

In other words, not having to gag to death for 30 minutes during your execution is actually, as it turns out, ONE OF THE EXPLICIT FUCKING THINGS YOU ARE GUARANTEED IN THIS COUNTRY.

Reader Interactions

199Comments

  1. 1.

    Poopyman

    Not according to the wingnut definition of “cruel”, nor in fact to “unusual” if they get their way.

  2. 2.

    El Tiburon

    Oh please. Britt Hume was right. All you feminized liberals caring about if people suffer or being tortured or going without food or healthcare.

    Pick up your purse and put some lipstick on.

  4. 4.

    Yatsuno

    Can the judge be sanctioned for this? Can the family of the condemned now sue for damages? I thought that line from the judge was disgusting, but the question is now what recourse can be pursued? This shit makes me hate the death penalty more and more.

  5. 5.

    Zam

    Legalized revenge. I don’t understand how we are supposed to go about teaching people that violence and murder are not justified when the state actively carries out these revenge killings. Fuck some states are just outsourcing the job to some of their more unbalanced residents.

  7. 7.

    lamh36

    OT…

    @TheReidReport nobody in the press has noticed GOP House total cave on budget.”

    there’s some “talk radio legislating” in there, but also more money for head start, and no shutdowns thru Oct.

  9. 9.

    Cervantes

    As I said in the earlier thread, if you want to let the prosecutor and his boss know what you think:

    Thomas E. Madden is senior assistant attorney general in the Criminal Justice Section, Capital Crimes Unit of the Ohio Attorney General’s Office. Since December 2005, he has defended death penalty appeals in all stages before federal courts and assists county prosecutors in various phases of death penalty prosecutions, clemencies, and appeals. Tom argues regularly before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit. Before his current position, Tom was assistant attorney general in the Ohio AG office’s Health and Human Services Section, bringing charges against chiropractors, doctors, and other healthcare providers for breaching Ohio’s regulations and laws. He also previously worked as an assistant prosecuting attorney in the Fayette County Office of the Prosecuting Attorney.

    Tom earned his J.D. from the University of Kentucky College of Law and his B.A. from Bellarmine College in Louisville, Ky.

    In his spare time, Tom plays pitch-and-catch, goes fishing, hikes, or takes horse-back riding with his rather rambunctious sons, Paul Kelley and Patrick.

    His boss is our old friend Mike DeWine, so you should not expect too much from him, but if you want to express your view:

    Office of the Attorney-General
    30 E. Broad St., 14th Floor
    Columbus, OH 43215

    Or call 614.466.4986

  10. 10.

    gelfling545

    Those copies of the constitution are like the pocket New Testaments some carry. They are fashion accessories, certainly not meant to be read.

  13. 13.

    Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader

    We’re talking about people who, by and large, think forcing water down someone’s throat in an effort to make them think they are drowning is an “enhanced” way of questioning (interrogating) them. IOW, sadists.

  15. 15.

    Violet

    Gagging for 30 minutes during your execution is not cruel and unusual punishment. It’s less than the guilty deserve. Why are you making the Baby Jesus cry by not wanting the guilty to suffer?

    /wingnut

  17. 17.

    Jebediah, RBG

    @Corner Stone:

    The death penalty should have been abolished decades ago. Period.

    I can’t think of a single good reason to keep it, and every wrongfully executed innocent is a pretty good god damn reason for getting rid of it.

  19. 19.

    jharp

    I read the story of the dudes crime and it was quite remarkable.

    Dude was in jail for something else and to help his case told investigators he knew who did the murder.

    Then told investigators his brother in law did it.

    Good thinking, buddy. Didn’t turn out so well.

  20. 20.

    Corner Stone

    @Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader:

    We’re talking about people who, by and large, think forcing water down someone’s throat in an effort to make them think they are drowning is an “enhanced” way of questioning (interrogating) them.

    Ummmm…who would those people be? The ones who speak of “enhanced interrogation techniques” ?

  21. 21.

    sm*t cl*de

    IIRC, Scalia has declared that cruelty is fine as long as the form of cruelty is honoured by tradition. Cruel but not unusual punishments are acceptable.

  22. 22.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    @Eric Lindholm: Wow, they won’t even print letters from readers who are engaging in climate change denial. That is impressive. By contrast though, the Washington Post publishes entire columns by George Will, and pays him for them. I’d say the denial propaganda industry is still winning, all things considered.

    You do realize that deciding what goes in your own newspaper isn’t a matter of denying free speech, right?

  23. 23.

    Aji

    Yeah, somebody tell Scalia. Many years ago, I had the displeasure of asking him a question, shortly after late Justice Blackmon had announced that he could no longer support the death penalty, convinced as he had become that the racially disparate application of it alone was enough to render it “cruel and unusual.”

    Nino’s “response?” “Well, OF COURSE it’s constitutional. Clearly it is. I know you people all think . . . .” And the rant when downhill from there into indecipherable nothingburger gibberish that took forfuckingever.

    So you wanna make the case that it’s cruel and unusual, you’re gonna have to get it past Nino first. [Just FTR: I agree with you, and I oppose capital punishment anyway on multiple grounds.]

    Unrelated: Is this fucking week over yet? Jesus, it’s been shitty.

  24. 24.

    Davis X. Machina

    @sm*t cl*de: This is something of a tradition. In Trop v. Dulles (1958) the Court determined that yes, the state could kill you, but it couldn’t strip you of your citizenship. After all, you might be dead, but by God, you’re still an American corpse, and taking that away is just going too far.

  26. 26.

    Professor

    Who told you that these conservatives and/or right-wing nut-jobs have read the Bill of rights? They carry the booklets as a ‘show off’. They do NOT understand nor can they interpret the constitution?

  27. 27.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Sorry John, gagging to a slow death is neither “cruel” nor “unusual” as that is the end most conservatives envision for us faggy liberals.

  28. 28.

    Corner Stone

    @Jebediah, RBG:

    and every wrongfully executed innocent

    I, personally, would change that to – “and any chance of wrongfully executing an innocent person”.

  30. 30.

    Roger Moore

    I think the prosecutor is actually correct, and people being executed aren’t guaranteed pain free executions. Hanging, firing squad, and the electric chair are far from painless, and that didn’t stop them from being used. What the 8th Amendment would seem to guarantee, though, is that executions not be excessively and unnecessarily painful, which definitely seems to have been the case for this one.

  32. 32.

    Jay C

    @Yatsuno:

    Unfortunately, IIRC, the legal recourse for even badly-botched executions is pretty thin: first, there’s the issue of standing; and, assholish comments by prosecutors notwithstanding, a sort of “sovereign immunity” for legal, official activities (like executions) . Yeah, I find incidents like this an excellent argument against capital punishment, but that seems, sadly, to be a minority opinion…

  33. 33.

    Joe F

    I am neither ardent supporter or opponent of the death penalty; misapplied in so many cases, but there have been other crimes committed (Aurora/Newtown shootings eg) where I am in full alliance with the off with his head club, but what really confuses me is why that it is so difficult to execute someone without pain. We can give people enough sedatives to basically cut their chest open with a circular saw to perform open heart surgery or any number of traumatically invasives surgeries, why can’t they be given this level of knockout and basically you could kill the person painlessly with a tack hammer. Hell. You can remove limbs if you before the final death painlessly if you want to satisfy the sadists.

    Shit, I’ve taken enough drugs on my own that you could have execute me with a red hot poker and I wouldn’t have felt a thing

  34. 34.

    jl

    @Aji: Yeah, I was thinking about what Scalia’s reaction would be. Slowly suffocating to death? Heck, it was good enough for alleged witches and warlocks in Puritan New England, and if pressing is quicker and cheaper, maybe we should just do that. It would be Christian thing to do.

  35. 35.

    Jebediah, RBG

    @sm*t cl*de:

    IIRC, Scalia has declared that cruelty is fine as long as the form of cruelty is honoured by tradition. Cruel but not unusual punishments are acceptable.

    I am not proud of thinking right now that maybe Scalia needs breaking upon a wheel. Very traditional, after all.

  36. 36.

    MomSense

    @Zam:

    Legalized revenge.

    You know I really believe that there is a sick, sadistic vein in American politics/culture. These people like the idea of inflicting pain, torture, wild west “justice”, and vigilantism. Scooter fucking Libby wrote depraved porn about bears and young girls. George Bush liked to blow up frogs when he was a kid. I really don’t think it is much of a stretch from cruelty to animals as a child to Abu Ghraib as CinC. There is a culture of cruelty in this country that has always been with us.

  39. 39.

    agorabum

    @Eric Lindholm: Awww, someone doesn’t understand free speech. Free Speech means the LA Times is free to do whatever it wants, and the Government can’t stop them. And the government can’t stop you from whining about it.
    Free speech does not mean that you can say whatever you want without someone calling you stupid. It does not mean that the LA Times has an obligation to adopt, support, or print your words. You don’t like it, go buy a printing press.
    Also, you are stupid and a troll.
    And if Cole or someone else decides to delete all your comments and ban you forever, you can’t do anything about it. That’s not what the First Amendment is about. Stupid.

  41. 41.

    Laertes

    I’ve long suspected that our bizarre drug-cocktail execution method was specifically designed to be painful. This prosecutor’s remarks tend to support that conclusion.

    Just to set this next question up: I oppose the death penalty in all forms, for all crimes, under all circumstances.

    Now, having said that, and purely in the spirit of exploring the accusation that we’re deliberately making executions painful, is there a doctor or similar in the house who can tell me why a massive dose of morphine or heroin wouldn’t be a reliable and painless method of execution?

  42. 42.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Roger Moore: I would counter that with the argument that society has changed to point any and all executions constitute cruel and unusual punishment. But then, I would also use examples from the rest of the developed world and Scalia would go nuts.

  44. 44.

    Big R

    So, speaking professionally, I’m going to play burnsie in this thread. The prosecutor is quite right that the Bill of Rights, as currently construed, does not entitle the condemned to a pain-free execution. To that extent, Cole’s attitude is the same as the Bircher who’s convinced that the Constitution forbids anti-discrimination laws from applying to private businesses because hate isn’t commerce.

    That said, a) the Eighth Amendment ought to forbid painful executions and b) even if it doesn’t, we ought to be able to give the condemned a peaceful way out – for our own dignity if nothing else. If we have to execute, and boy do I wish we didn’t feel the need to scratch that itch, we should be human enough to do it kindly.

  45. 45.

    jl

    @Laertes: I’ve wondered about that too. Why not just sedate them so heavily that they go to sleep and then die from respiratory suppression? Anyone familiar with the medicine and law of that approach here who can explain it?

  47. 47.

    Howard Beale IV

    Whoever came up with the protocol for the drugs used is the one who needs to be indicted-for prescribing Controlled Substances without the proper DEA licensing.

  48. 48.

    Yatsuno

    @Jebediah, RBG: That fecking cannoli needs to get stuck in that damn thick throat of his sooner rather than later. I’m running out of patience here.

    @Jay C: Yeah. I was afeared of that.

    @Omnes Omnibus: Use Canada. That should make the fat fuck stroke out.

  49. 49.

    Cervantes

    @Roger Moore:

    I think the prosecutor is actually correct, and people being executed aren’t guaranteed pain free executions.

    Yes, he’s right about that — but it’s a non sequitur. Was McGuire’s attorney asking for him to be given a pain-free execution?

    There’s a reason the prosecutor said what he said; and, in my opinion, it’s reason enough to fire him. Mike DeWine won’t agree, obviously, but he still needs to hear from decent people about this.

  50. 50.

    Laertes

    On the face of it, the prohibition against “cruel” punishment would seem to forbid going to any trouble to make executions more painful. The prosecutor’s attitude strongly suggests that this is, in fact, what the criminal justice system is up to.

  52. 52.

    Howard Beale IV

    @jl:

    The problem that Ohio faced was that the first part of the standard 3-drug cocktail for capital punishment (pentobarbitol for sedation, pancuronium bromide for stopping respiration, potassium chloride for cardiac stopping) wasn’t available as the sole manufacturer (Lundbeck) put the screws to its use with all sorts of licensing restrictions.

    Why didn’t Ohio flip over to using propofol instead of pentobarbitol? After all, it worked all to well on Michael Jackson….

  54. 54.

    Aji

    @jl: Dunking? If she drowns, she’s a witch; if she floats, she’s a witch. Win/win.

    I would put nothing past him. Open the dictionary to “sociopath,” and there’s his sneering mug.

  55. 55.

    sm*t cl*de

    Slowly suffocating to death? Heck, it was good enough for alleged witches and warlocks in Puritan New England
    That was enhanced interrogation, though, an incentive to plead guilty or not guilty — definitely not punishment.

  57. 57.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Laertes: FWIW the Constitution prohibition is of “cruel and unusual” punishments and “cruel and unusual” is a specific legal term of art.

  59. 59.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @sm*t cl*de: Giles Corey’s property was not confiscated by the court because he died of pressing while they were trying to get him to confess. All hail the presumption of innocence.

  63. 63.

    jl

    @sm*t cl*de: A commenter here who studied on it said it was mostly an execution method for those who would not plead, which many had recourse to in order to preserve their estate for their kids.

    So, dude, they did not even have to be found guilty for it to be applied.

    No one tell Scalia, God knows what he’ll do with his wacked out textual intentorated originalism.

    Edit: I missed Omnes’ comment. Was Omnes the one who scholarsplained how the Puritans killed them some witches back in the day?

  64. 64.

    Calming influence

    I say this as someone who is against capital punishment – when I heard about this, I found myself wishing they had simply beat him to death. It would have been quicker and less cruel. Hell, a plastic bag over his head would have at least been quicker. There’s some sick motherfuckers out there, and they’re not always the murders.

  65. 65.

    Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader

    @Corner Stone: GASP! Are you saying Obama supports waterboarding? Because I didn’t know that and if it’s true, he’s clearly picked a reasonable middle ground between breaking people’s limbs and letting them go free to terrorize again.

  69. 69.

    Elizabelle

    The US of A is not doing it (allegedly) with 120 hunger-crazed dogs, but having a death penalty otherwise does not separate us from North Korea.

    (As someone pointed out on earlier “One Dead in Ohio” thread.)

    On the bright side, we have people who live in “Chemical Valley.”

  71. 71.

    jl

    @Howard Beale IV: But what you are wondering about it is pretty much my question. There are plenty of sedatives that can kill a person. So why was there a problem getting a sedative?

    And there are plenty of sedatives that can kill a person without any help from other drugs, thank you very much. So why all the gyrations over drug cocktails, especially since the nonsedatives are the ones that cause the problems with disturbing and I guess very painful death throes.

    Edit: Or, is a person not considered dead enough if they go to sleep and their nervous system shuts down and they die that way, in their sleep?

  72. 72.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Cassidy: Ohio enjoys its executions. A couple of stories: On 9/11/2001, the Ohio AGs people were pitching a fit that the US Supreme Court wasn’t moving faster on a death penalty matter. They had people calling the Court and bitching that some documents weren’t being processed that day because of the AQ attacks. One of the people involved in that fiasco later to a short term job as county prosecutor so that he could prosecute a death penalty case and get a scalp. That particular guy was a friend of a friend; I had never really liked him before, but from that day on, I despised him. Fucking despicable asshole. He is a ghoul.

  74. 74.

    Calming influence

    @Yatsuno: As reported on Morning Edition today, the family of the condemned is suing the State. That’s the left-wing media, of course…

  76. 76.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @beltane:

    Germany briefly adopted such a policy, but ultimately they decided it was not such a great idea. The neighbors objected.

  77. 77.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Well, even Reinhard Heydrich felt obligated to not use that particular word.

    After all, his organization coined “advanced interrogation techniques” you know.

  80. 80.

    Corner Stone

    @Omnes Omnibus: It’s not a dumb remark. It’s a clear backtrack from previous statements made as president.
    He didn’t casually ask David Frum to write this speech for him.

  83. 83.

    Jesse

    @Zam: My favorite quote on the death penalty comes from the French Revolution (I forget who said it) but it went something like “a society that legalizes murder, teaches murder.”

  84. 84.

    Calming influence

    @Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader: Let’s be fair. Obama is completely against water-torture, which is what forcing water down someone’s throat in an effort to make them think they are drowning was called pre-9/11/2001. Water-boarding, on the other hand, is the much more sophisticate and much less cruel procedure that consists of forcing water down someone’s throat in an effort to make them think they are drowning. This, the president is O.K. with.

  88. 88.

    Cliff in NH

    @Laertes:

    Yea, but Evil people and Lawyers will say that and does not mean or.

    that’s why people talk about original intent and stuff like that.

  91. 91.

    Hobbes

    Overdoses of morphine/heroin cause respiratory failure. You’d choke to death as happened to Dennis McGuire in Ohio, though it is hard to imagine it taking 30 minutes.

  92. 92.

    Calming influence

    Top Ten Execution Methods Less Cruel And Unusual Than Ohio’s:

    10: Inject with habenero sauce, wait 25 minutes, and then shoot in head.

  95. 95.

    Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader

    Is there some reason we aren’t just shooting these death row inmates? We don’t have a shortage of guns or ammo in this country. Hell, you could just put antlers on them and send them into the woods on the first day of hunting season. For that matter, you could prolly just send them down to Florida to go door to door until someone panics and shoots them dead.

  96. 96.

    Corner Stone

    @Omnes Omnibus: If you call it out as torture, not as a candidate but as president, and then now call it some euphemism…how is that not a backtrack?
    I’m not saying he’s cool with what happened. But you gotta call it what it is. Or it’s bullshit.

  97. 97.

    scav

    I remember an altogether charming individual at work who pulled me aside after 9/11 to rant about the need to go after the perpetrators and Muslims and had I seen on TV last night how they’d executed a woman with a sword?! All barbarians! All of them! Looked confused when I mentioned regions of the world that shared and did not share enthusiasm for Capital Punishment. Within a week was looking at me again, this time as if I was vile for not actively hoping to capture Bin Ladin Alive for the pleasure in torturing him. Actually asked if I wouldn’t enjoy it.

    Luckily he was in marketing so I didn’t have to deal with him much. He was one of those people people they keep telling us recluse tech-heads about.

  98. 98.

    Gravenstone

    @Eric Lindholm: You are aware that Free Speech only pertains to the government suppressing speech, right? Of course not, fucking wingnut, clickbaiting (and likely masturbating) hit and run cowardly moron that you are.

  100. 100.

    Calming influence

    @Elizabelle: So I just got through the Guardian story, and this jumped out at me:

    “Deborah Denno, a law professor at Fordham University in New York who is a specialist in execution methods…”

    Holy crap. I’m sure she’s a very nice person, who doesn’t get invited to many parties.

  102. 102.

    Roger Moore

    @jl:

    And there are plenty of sedatives that can kill a person without any help from other drugs, thank you very much.

    But will they do it reliably with reasonable doses? My impression is that the problem with sedatives and anesthetics is that they are tricky and unreliable, so getting a dose that’s sure to be lethal is trickier than you’d think. Instead, the idea is to give a big enough dose of sedative to knock the person out and follow it with a large, sure to be lethal dose of something else. Actually, I suspect it’s really a PR move intended to give an otherwise barbaric procedure a superficial air of scientific and medical legitimacy.

  103. 103.

    Van

    @jl: Uh basically that’s what they did. As a medical professional I can tell you that with that much Versed and and hydromorphone he probably didn’t feel a thing. The gasping and snorting were just reflexes. A person who has a heroin overdose will do the same thing and then eventually stop breathing. And despite what you see in the movies it takes a while. I’m against the death penalty, but if I had to go this doesn’t sound like a bad way.

  105. 105.

    sm*t cl*de

    Overdoses of morphine/heroin cause respiratory failure.

    More precisely, they cause respiratory depression. Your brain stops trying to breath, so no choking involved.
    Such is my experience of euthanasia.

  107. 107.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Cliff in NH: Point out the backtrack then. Obama said the behavior contradicted our values – one presumes that those values include upholding the Geneva Conventions. I think using the euphemism was wrong; I think we should be blunt about the fact the waterboarding is torture. I, however, don’t think that Obama was backtracking on anything.

  109. 109.

    Calming influence

    Top Ten Execution Methods Less Cruel And Unusual Than Ohio’s:

    10: Inject with habenero sauce, wait 25 minutes, and then shoot in head.
    9: Put antlers on them and send them into the woods on the first day of hunting season.
    8: send them down to Florida to go door to door until someone panics and shoots them dead.

  110. 110.

    Corner Stone

    @Cliff in NH: *Not* if you’re on private property!
    Where is a real estate developer when we need them? Something appropriately named…like maybe, Freedom Industries. Nah, too blatantly stupid for anyone to name a company that.

  111. 111.

    Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader

    If we were serious about killing people, wouldn’t we just let everyone in prison conceal-carry?

  112. 112.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Corner Stone: I get your point. For the most part we agree on this. It was torture. It should be called torture. Obama was wrong not to do so. You say he backtracked. I say he was being mealy-mouthed.

  113. 113.

    Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader

    Cassidy is prolly itching to tell us about his favorite killing methods.

  114. 114.

    beltane

    @Calming influence: Deborah Denno was my criminal law professor. I’ll never forget the class she devoted to recounting botches executions. Many people left the room because they couldn’t stand it.

  115. 115.

    Calming influence

    Top Ten Execution Methods Less Cruel And Unusual Than Ohio’s:

    10: Inject with habenero sauce, wait 25 minutes, and then shoot in head.
    9: Put antlers on them and send them into the woods on the first day of hunting season.
    8: send them down to Florida to go door to door until someone panics and shoots them dead.
    7: Laser tag with bullets.

  117. 117.

    shelly

    ocktail for capital punishment (pentobarbitol for sedation

    And the rub is that the drug that they’re now trying as the first one administered, is also in short supply. Used as pain relieve for critically ill patients. So now doctors are afraid this practice is gonna make it scarce for the people who need it.

  119. 119.

    Calming influence

    @beltane: Damn! Small world! How do you think she’d do recounting botched executions over stuffed mushrooms and a nice chardonnay?

  121. 121.

    Calming influence

    Top Ten Execution Methods Less Cruel And Unusual Than Ohio’s:

    10: Inject with habenero sauce, wait 25 minutes, and then shoot in head.
    9: Put antlers on them and send them into the woods on the first day of hunting season.
    8: send them down to Florida to go door to door until someone panics and shoots them dead.
    7: Laser tag with bullets.
    6: Send them into Florida movie theaters wearing cellophane clothes. (I took liberties.)

  122. 122.

    Corner Stone

    @Omnes Omnibus: Once you call it torture you can’t call it anything else.
    That’s what it was. Let’s see/hear the disciples of President Stuck make pretzel shapes, pipe up now and defend GWB’s admin policies because Obama has now chimed in that they were merely “enhanced interrogation procedures”.

  124. 124.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Corner Stone: YMMV but, in my mind, enhanced interrogation procedures = torture in the same way that pot = marijuana and flogging the dolphin = masturbation.

  125. 125.

    Calming influence

    Re. Top Ten: I just realized you could probably use the fortune cook gag (following every fortune with “…in bed!”) with methods of execution – just follow any normal everyday action with “…in Florida!”

  128. 128.

    Howard Beale IV

    @jl: Florida recently did an execution with an huge overdose of midazolam but there are better drugs than a massive dose of midazolam-like fentanyl or sufentanil.

    They also should use an inhalable anesthetic like halothane for the first minute then switch to carbon monoxide.

    If you want cheap and uncomplicated, a good sizable dose of methadone should do the trick.

  129. 129.

    Corner Stone

    @Omnes Omnibus: No. That is unacceptable. President Obama calls it “enhanced interrogation technique” and it = all good to people who break balls to defend him. Now it’s not such a bad thing. Mistakes were made.

  131. 131.

    jl

    @Roger Moore:
    It’s for the death penalty, to kill a person, why do you need a ‘reasonable’ dose?

    @Van:

    Thanks for the information from a medical perspective. I am unclear on why all three drug are not characterized as sedatives, but rather things specifically described as for stopping the heart and stopping respiration. It gave me the impression that they used some mechanism other than general sedation.

  132. 132.

    Howard Beale IV

    @shelly: The shortage in midazolam is actually bleeding into other inject-able benzo’s.

    Now the real question is-can the citizenry start to put pressure on the manufacturers of Controlled IV and above benzos and opiates to put a spanner in the execution engines?

  133. 133.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Corner Stone:

    President Obama calls it “enhanced interrogation technique” and it = all good to people who break balls to defend him.

    Except that he said that the actions violated our values, i.e., that the actions were wrong. We’ll simply have to disagree over the magnitude of the fuck up.

  134. 134.

    Rob in CT

    @Big R:

    1. Good comment.
    2. You did not successfully play Burnsie. Your comment was better than that would require.

  136. 136.

    Davis X. Machina

    @Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader:

    We don’t have a shortage of guns or ammo in this country. Hell, you could just put antlers on them and send them into the woods on the first day of hunting season

    You’d have to dress them as cows, or woodpiles, or barns, if you were serious about their getting shot.

  139. 139.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Corner Stone:

    but you’re still wrong.

    If that is the case, then I’ve gotten my mistake out of the way for the year.

    @Davis X. Machina:

    You’d have to dress them as cows, or woodpiles, or barns, if you were serious about their getting shot.

    Other hunters. Dressing them as other hunters would work like a dream.

  140. 140.

    Van

    @sm*t cl*de: Yeah, but hydromorphone or Dilaudid also causes respiratory depression and was quite popular among heroin addicts I used to know. Also Versed is used to knock people out before you ventilate them. They used Versed on me when I got my colonoscopy and if I felt any pain, I sure don’t remember. So the air hunger here sounds more like agonal breathing, which is usually an unconscious/reflex reaction you see in dying people. I’ve never participated in euthanasia, but have provided hospice/comfort care. I’ve also seen people do this in code blue situations. I’m not in favor of the death penalty, but with that much Versed on board, I doubt he felt anything. I’ts like being ‘dead’ drunk.

  141. 141.

    Calming influence

    Top Ten Execution Methods Less Cruel And Unusual Than Ohio’s:

    10: Inject with habenero sauce, wait 25 minutes, and then shoot in head.
    9: Put antlers on them and send them into the woods on the first day of hunting season.
    8: send them down to Florida to go door to door until someone panics and shoots them dead.
    7: Laser tag with bullets.
    6: Send them into Florida movie theaters wearing cellophane clothes. (I took liberties.)
    5: Send them anywhere in Texas but Austin (and wearing a pink bunny suit).
    4: Dress two in cow costume and drop into Westchester Co. 1st day of deer season.

  142. 142.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Cliff in NH: Yeah, I know. See my full exchange with Corner Stone. I don’t disagree that Obama was wrong to use the term; I just disagree with CS that using the term was is opening the door to people saying the behavior is okay. It appears that you may agree with CS. Okay, I can see the argument; I am not convinced by it.

  143. 143.

    Howard Beale IV

    @Van: The problem is that they used a benzo + opioid instead of the usual barbituate/muscular depolarizer/cardiac stoppage-even the Flordia execution using just Versed alone took twice as long as the ‘gold standard’ 3 drug cocktail.

  145. 145.

    Van

    @Howard Beale IV: Actually fentanyl is a different class of drugs from versed. Versed is similar to valium, whereas fentanyl is a very powerful narcotic, a sort of synthetic heroin( but more powerful).

  146. 146.

    Chris

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Like I said earlier on a similar thread; there are people who absolutely get off on inflicting pain and death on others, but who have enough sense not to want to go to jail. So they find the people who can be rationalized as “deserving” the pain from society’s point of view, and then they get to inflict it with a clear conscience. It’s not sadism, it’s Civic Duty.

    And that’s your law and order conservatives in a nutshell.

  147. 147.

    Corner Stone

    @Omnes Omnibus: Ha. This admin has destroyed wedding parties, double tapped funereal processions and claimed signature strikes would engage only when there was no chance of innocents being involved.
    Of course if Obama said “enhanced interrogation procedures” those motherfucking euphemisms would be dialed down by his rigid supporters.
    Stop fucking bullshitting. Call it what it was/is. Torture.

  150. 150.

    Van

    @Howard Beale IV: Yeah I see your point, but there were problems with the old method. The cardiac depolarizer (potassium chloride) is very painful. It burns going in and if it doesn’t work the person feels like they are on fire. Also being medically paralyzed doesn’t prevent you from feeling pain, you just can’t move. So your only hope is that the phenobarb does it’s job. I think I would prefer the slow death in a versed narcotic haze. But they have to use enough.

  152. 152.

    Cliff in NH

    I don’t disagree that Obama was wrong to use the term; I just disagree with CS that using the term was is opening the door to people saying the behavior is okay. It appears that you may agree with CS. Okay, I can see the argument; I am not convinced by it.

    describing reality does not say anything about what I think.

  153. 153.

    Cacti

    @Corner Stone:

    Call it what it was/is. Torture.

    Wish me Merry Christmas, dammit!

    Happy holidays offends my values!

    Channeling your inner Bill O’Reilly this evening?

  156. 156.

    Eric Lindholm

    Ohhh…you mean government control of free speech like the Fairness Doctrine, which frustrated liberals keep trying to push through Congress because they can’t stand the fact that Fox News is more popular than MSNBC? And that Rush Limbaugh steamrolled over Air America?

    Have fun erasing my comments. It’s your right.

  159. 159.

    Howard Beale IV

    @Van: That’s why I wonder why they don’t use an inhalable as part of the protocol-probably because they’re cheap bastards.

    The one thing this clusterfuck surfaced is that the drug shortage crisis is an even bigger problem than its led out to be-it’s mind-blowing to see how many critical essential drugs are in limited supply or are no longer manufactured/available-especially key drugs like leucovorin for colon caner.

  163. 163.

    Howard Beale IV

    @Van: I know that-when I had my colonoscopy a few years ago they used both Versed and fentanyl.

    Didn;t knock me out at all-as a matter of fact, I felt the scope a couple of times as the doc was manipulating it and let the doc know.

    I much prefer meperidine and diazepam when I was endoscoped 20 years ago-now THAT made me not care.

  166. 166.

    Howard Beale IV

    @Cassidy: His type can’t help it-they don’t realize that they’ve been conditioned and their Commanding Self is calling the shots.

  168. 168.

    Cacti

    O/T, but anyone remember US District Court Judge Richard Cebull? The comedian of the Ninth Circuit who sent that side splitting Obama/bestiality joke from his official e-mail address?

    Well, internal investigation has shown that he sent a bunch of e-mails disparaging African Americans, Native Americans, Hispanics, women, homosexuals, and “certain religious groups” (gee I wonder which ones).

    I know I’m shocked that a Dubya appointed Judge would turn out this way.

  169. 169.

    Suffern ACE

    I’ve had about enough of this thread. What they should do is promise prisoners that they can go free as soon as they clear 400 levels of candy crush. It pretty much guarantees that they’ll never go free and even if they do, they’ll be fairly harmless mental goo. Cruel, yes. But hardly unusual.

  171. 171.

    Bill Arnold

    @Aji:

    So you wanna make the case that it’s cruel and unusual, you’re gonna have to get it past Nino first.

    I’ve wondered where his line is. Has anybody publicly tried to find his line between cruel and unusual, and not?

  172. 172.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Baud:

    The unholy heretical legions of the Lutheran Church reformed Missouri Synod in Grace and Beauty.

  173. 173.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Bill Arnold: IIRC this is one of the occasions when Scalia goes into originalist mode. If the punishment was beyond the pale in the late 18th century, it would be “cruel and unusual.” So it would include things like slitting noses and ears for minor offenses. As methods of execution, burning at the stake had gone by the boards, so that would probably out. And so on.*

    *I can’t be arsed to go read anything by Scalia on a Friday evening – largely because I don’t actually hate myself.

  174. 174.

    Cervantes

    @Cacti:

    O/T, but anyone remember US District Court Judge Richard Cebull? The comedian of the Ninth Circuit who sent that side splitting Obama/bestiality joke from his official e-mail address?

    That’s former Chief District Judge Richard Cebull to you, pal.

    One of his last official acts:

    Chief District Judge Cebull has publicly acknowledged that he has acted inappropriately. By letter to Chief Judge Alex Kozinski of the Ninth Circuit, Judge Cebull has initiated the process by which a complaint of judicial misconduct will be brought against him.

    Might well have been the smartest thing he’s done in years (a low bar, I know).

  179. 179.

    Aji

    @Bill Arnold: Do you think there is one? I’m honestly not sure of that.

    Well, let me rephrase: When one is talking about a garden-variety criminal, preferably one of color, there’s probably nothing on the far side of the line. If you’re, say, a big bank who killed people by destroying their lives or similar, well, any punishment, including a fine, would be cruel and unusual.

    Yes, I exaggerate, but not by much.

  180. 180.

    Cervantes

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Except that he said that the actions violated our values, i.e., that the actions were wrong. We’ll simply have to disagree over the magnitude of the fuck up.

    He did not use the word “torture” for a very simple reason.

  182. 182.

    Corner Stone

    @Cervantes: That’s a good technical call. But, seeing as he has called it torture before. What are we supposed to understand “enhanced interrogation procedures” now?

  183. 183.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Corner Stone: Has he called it torture since he took office? The opinion of a junior senator vs. an admission by the president could been to have different weight even though both are the same person.

  184. 184.

    Corner Stone

    Oh well. What I think is more important at this point is determining how effective enhanced interrogative procedures can be.
    If we crush the testicles of a potential enemy? Maybe we can determine where the ticking time bomb is.
    Maybe we enhance someone for 192 times under the water. Because they told us everything they know at 193, and if we had had to go 194 that would have crossed the line from enhanced to torture. Oh, excuse me, that would have crossed over into “torture”.

  185. 185.

    Cervantes

    @Corner Stone:

    But, seeing as he has called it torture before. What are we supposed to understand “enhanced interrogation procedures” now?

    Do you have one or more citations for his prior use of the word? Details matter.

    Personally, I wish he had used the accurate word this time and every time — let Bush & Cheney & Rumsfeld & company fight their own damn battles — justify the Nobel Prize — whatever — but life is complicated.

  187. 187.

    seaboogie

    Absolutely opposed to capital punishment. OTOH, what is it that vets use to euthanize pets? One of the saddest days of my life was when I let my sweet pup go, and it was so absolutely immediate and peaceful, and I was grateful that he did not have to suffer one minute longer.

    ETA: Nevermind…did some research and it is pentobarbitol.

  188. 188.

    Corner Stone

    @Cervantes:

    “Waterboarding is torture. It’s contrary to America’s traditions, it’s contrary to our ideals, it’s not who we are, it’s not how we operate,” Obama told reporters at a press conference of the interrogation technique.

    Obama Says GOP Candidates Are Wrong, Waterboarding is ‘Torture’

    “And anybody who has actually read about and understands the practice of waterboarding would say that that is torture and that’s not something we do. Period.”

  194. 194.

    Corner Stone

    WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama said Wednesday night that waterboarding authorized by former President George W. Bush was torture and that the information it gained from terror suspects could have been obtained by other means. “In some cases, it may be harder,” he conceded at a White House news conference capping a whirlwind first 100 days in office.
    That was 2009

  195. 195.

    Corner Stone

    @Omnes Omnibus: No, that’s fine. I absolutely am with the request for some type of info to back up something stated here as fact.
    But, I don’t think anyone following this admin had to go too far to see what I said was actual reality.
    So…meh.

    I want every person here who makes suspect/specious claims to be able to provide backup. That includes myself!

  198. 198.

    Van

    @Howard Beale IV: Howard, I’m sure they must have used fentanyl on me, except I don’t remember a thing. Maybe they needed to give you a little more Versed.And as for the shortages of critical drugs I also wonder what the deal is with that. Maybe they had to cut loose some of their Chinese manufacturers.It’s not just sedatives and cancer drugs. There always seems to be a shortage of something.

  199. 199.

    E Stamm

    @Joe F: I’ve often wondered the same thing. If I had to choose my death, it would be firing squad after full sedation.

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