DNA taken from the wisdom tooth of a European hunter-gatherer has given scientists an unprecedented glimpse of modern humans before the rise of farming. The Mesolithic man, who lived in Spain around 7,000 years ago, had an unusual mix of blue eyes, black or brown hair, and dark skin, according to analyses of his genetic make-up…
And, yes, the blue eyes/mahogany skin combo isn’t that uncommon today — even though most of the people I’ve known with that phenotype claim a German background, one of my own siblings stands out in a tribe of otherwise stereotypical skim-milk-pale freckled Irish-Americans.
Apart from Mesolithic political jokes, what’s on the agenda for the evening?
Baud
Was the hunter-gatherer a job creator or a moocher? With the blue eyes and dark skin, it’s all so ambiguous.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Cool. How long till we get aurochs and mastodons?
Tweety just closed his show singing the fulsome praises of the Clintons in response to Rand Son Of Ron’s revival of the Clenis. I wonder if Tweety has any recollection whatsoever of his red-faced, spittle-fleced rants about what THAT MAN! did in THE PEOPLE’S HOUSE!
maximiliano furtive, formerly known as dr. bloor
“I’m just a caveman legislator… Your world frightens and confuses me. When I see your tall buildings and flashing neon signs, sometimes I just want to get away as fast as I can, to my country club bar.”
Baud
FTA
In modern times, those two men would have been married on the Grammys.
Progress!
gbear
Johnny get angry, Johnny get mad,
Give me the biggest lecture I ever had
I want a brave man, I want a cave man
Johnny show me that you care, really care for me
wmd
Why hasn’t Cole big footed this post yet?
Litlebritdiftrnt
I have always been attracted to men with black hair and blue eyes, my DH has such traits (these days it is grey hair and blue eyes) but whatever. I was also attracted to a blonde brown eyes type in my youth, that didn’t last long once I discovered that he had a tendency to be unfaithful. All of the loves of my life have had black hair and blue eyes. Take of that as you will.
Baud
@wmd:
Mesolithic Man is Cole.
Mnemosyne
Also, too, current evidence leans towards our ancestors having gotten biz-zay with Neanderthals rather than just us simply replacing them via war and/or murder.
RandomMonster
Boehner is a paleo-conservative.
Elie
When I traveled in Sicily last year, observed the blue/green eyes, dark hair and skin not infrequently… very beautiful combo
Baud
@Mnemosyne:
Make love, not war!
Alison
Hey, do we have any Trekkies here? I have a sort of…philosophical question :)
JPL
Tomorrow I have the opportunity to serve on a jury in Atlanta. Most likely I’ll sit and read and at some point get sent home. Since we are expecting frozen precipitation, getting home should be fun. There is nothing like driving in the South during winter storms. My neighbor is excited because if I get stuck downtown, she gets to keep the pup overnight. good times.
monkeyfister
Celtic blood, perhaps. The Celts settled first in the Salzberg, before being driven further on, to what are now the British Isles.
Baud
@Alison:
You’re on the Internet. You might as well ask if anyone likes cats.
Belafon
Executives with bitcoin were charged with money laundering for helping the Silk Road drug site.
Origuy
A few days ago, I mentioned that the Reduced Shakespeare Company’s comedy The Bible: The Complete Word of God (Abridged) had been cancelled at a theater in Northern Ireland. This was due to pressure from some fundamentalist politicians and ministers. Well, after getting all kinds of flak from Irish, British and other sources, the local council unbanned it and the show will go on. Having the front page of of the Belfast Telegraph say “We’re a Laughing Stock” probably didn’t hurt.
schrodinger's cat
I too love the combination of dark hair and hazel or blue eyes. Like Cumberbatch in Sherlock, want!
catpal
open topic question – why are military Generals, etc. still able to keep their jobs after this horrible behavior
Seriously these aholes are still working in the pentagon.
Roger Moore
@wmd:
Because bigfoot is myth, unlike these early hunter gatherers.
JPL
@schrodinger’s cat: Don’t we all.
schrodinger's cat
@Alison: I don’t know if you can call me a Trekkie, since I haven’t seen all of TOS, Voyager and Enterprise. But I do like Trek, especially DS9 and the middle years of TNG.
Alison
@Baud: LOL, touche.
Okay, so…did they ever address the idea of Holodeck-addiction, or talk about why wouldn’t people just live in the Holodeck forever? Were there any, like…negative side effects from staying in a Holodeck program for too long? Because you can be whatever, wherever, whenever you want, you can have whatever reality you want, so it seems like it would have been easy for people to become obsessed with it and never want to leave. Did that ever come up and did they explain how or why people don’t do that?
schrodinger's cat
@JPL: There are some people who think that he is ugly.
Baud
@Alison:
I recall an episode where Barkley had a holodeck addiction involving Troi. The issue was explored, but not in any depth.
schrodinger's cat
@Alison: Yes it did Lt. Barclay in TNG.
JPL
@schrodinger’s cat: Not everyone has good taste.
Mnemosyne
@schrodinger’s cat:
Not ugly, but not my type. Seems to be a nice enough guy IRL, but too pale and skinny even for me, and I like ’em pale and skinny.
Origuy
@monkeyfister: There’s no evidence that the Celts got to Spain that early. From what I read, the hypothesis is that the blue eye mutation occurred before the pale skin mutation. Of course, the current thinking among anthropologists is that “Celtic” is an ethnolinguistic classification rather than a genetic one. The culture and language spread ahead of the progenitors of them. That was about 800 BC or so.
The Pale Scot
From Prof. Pierce;
I have read that the soil over there is lacking in some essential minerals that makes the crops shitty…..
So basically there are gangs of imbeciles running around Afghani loaded with weaponry.
Sounds like the American South but with opium.
And yes I live in FL.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Alison: So, technically, it would have been redundant for Comic Book Guy to wish for an hour in the Holodeck with Seven Of Nine? (Do I have her name right? I never saw it, but that was Jeri Ryan, right?)
WereBear
@Baud: Sheesh, I’m two for two.
And to think, growing up, I was the “weird kid.”
Ask away! Trek or Cats!
Alison
@schrodinger’s cat: @Baud: And so I imagine they portrayed as like…similar to drug addiction or something? Like, yes this thing is fun but too much is bad for you and can ruin your life, etc etc?
Alison
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’m….not sure why you’re asking me that.
Ken
@Baud:
Not on the show, but betcha a nickel that two minutes with Google will turn up a meg of fanfic slash pron “exploring” that episode.
Baud
@Alison:
Holodeck addiction is covered by Obamacare.
Belafon
@Alison: Barclay, who was portrayed by the guy who played Murdoch in the A-Team TV series, was the one mentally unstable guy in the entire 23rd century. His neuroses gave Troi a reason to be a counselor.
mainmata
My father and his siblings (and father) were called “Black Irish”: stark blue eyes but otherwise Greek-looking: densely curly, black hair, darkish skin I think the original Celts came from Spain, right? My mother was fair-haired freckly Irish so us kids are a real mix. Both from MA like you, I believe.
WereBear
It wasn’t thoroughly explored, but there was some discussion of how one could not truly eat or otherwise perform normal functions there, thus creating a self-limiting check on such activities.
jibeaux
Caveman Hottie!
I love the dark skin, green eyes combination myself. My kids didn’t get my green eyes, a fact which makes my husband pump his fist about his killer dominant genes.
Botsplainer
@schrodinger’s cat:
Always love Klingon Civil War plots.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Alison: I’m a Simpsons geek, not a trekkie. If the Holodeck is your ultimate fantasy made real, then 7/9 would already be in the Holodeck for him. Like wishing for all the money in the world, and a Rolls. Bad joke.
Chris Hayes is interviewing Richard Sherman, if anyone is interested in that. HE’s very diplomatic in addressing that jackass McCain. It’s not like Sherman called Erin Andrews a trollop and a c**t.
WereBear
@Mnemosyne: It’s the mental attraction; he successfully plays fascinating characters.
mellowjohn
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
tweety has no memory of anything (viz. his drooling over w being landed on the uss abe lincoln) other than tipandthegipper.
Alison
@WereBear: Ahh, that would be interesting.
MikeJ
@Roger Moore:
Every small town in Washington is required to have a coffee shop or tire store or chiropractor, SOMETHING with a chainsaw carved bigfoot out front. Usually not too far from their slice of a tree pointing out the ring where Columbus landed, Declaration of Independence signed, etc.
WereBear
Yes, the above quoted episode. The most interesting thing to me, which I don’t think was touched on too much, was how you would have to mentally adjust back and forth; this facility is what really would start getting messed up, seems to me.
Baud
For the record, I would be addicted to the holodeck.
Belafon
@WereBear: If you wondered what was going on inside Dexter’s (Michael Hall) head, watch Cumberbatch as Sherlock. Scary, and glad he’s on your side.
“How many times did he jump out of the window?”
“After a while it was just a blur.”
(Paraphrased)
schrodinger's cat
@WereBear: Plus he has a great voice, makes you go weak in the knees.
Southern Beale
Looks like that infamous mug shot of Mel Gibson
The Pale Scot
@mainmata: “Black Irish” are usually considered the result of wandering Roman centurions.
ETA: In old photos (1800s) from Ireland sometimes you can see some guy with a face that belongs in a gladiator flick, They’re usually from a certain part of Erin but I don’t remember where.
schrodinger's cat
@Botsplainer: I liked Martok! Worf always seemed a bit too uptight and more Klingon than thou to me.
Villago Delenda Est
How can that be, when the world is only 6,000 years old?
/Ken Ham
Alison
@WereBear: Right, that makes a lot of sense.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@The Pale Scot: I always heard Spaniards washed up after the wreck of the Armada
@mellowjohn: the short memories the American media, and voters, drives me crazy. Now fucking Willard is being rehabilitated by that fucking movie and an appearance on one of the Jimmy shows.
WereBear
@schrodinger’s cat: Worf had been raised by a human foster mother and always had more to prove.
Botsplainer
@Baud:
Eventually, even threesomes with Troi and Seven of Nine get tiresome.
Baud
@Botsplainer:
Eventually…
cckids
@mellowjohn:
And the T & G show he is so taken with is largely a figment of his imagination, as well.
Nunca el Jefe
@mainmata:I was told that that particular group in Ireland came about from the Spanish Armada remnants washing ashore
geg6
@schrodinger’s cat:
That’s me here, raising my hand. I find him repulsive. He looks like a damn salamander. So, not only ugly but creepy in a cold-blooded slimy creepy way. Ugh. Can’t even fathom being attracted to him. Can’t and won’t watch anything he’s in, he creeps me out so much.
But to each their own, I guess. Several people have found Rush Limbaugh attractive enough to marry him, so there’s someone out there for every taste.
Baud
@efgoldman:
There were a lot of holodeck episodes. At least two involving a Sherlock Holmes hologram come to life.
schrodinger's cat
@efgoldman: I found most of the holodeck episodes pretty boring.
geg6
@efgoldman:
Agreed on Q. And I think you’re right about an episode about the holodeck being on the fritz and endangering people. Been years since I’ve seen much TNG, but that rings a bell.
WaterGirl
@geg6:
I apparently found that idea so repulsive that I found myself literally pulling back from the screen as I read it. What did I do to make you punish me like this?
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Baud: Moriarty.
Baud
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Right. Data was Sherlock.
Villago Delenda Est
@Alison:
Do we have any trekkies here? Is the Pope an Argentine? Does a bear shit in the woods?
Wait..strike that…reverse it…
WereBear
@geg6: Rush has bribed women to marry him, plain and simple.
And I never found the blonde, Aryan, surfer-type attractive at all. Fabio leaves me utterly cold; might as well date a Ken doll.
But millions of women disagree! As the elderly Jewish ladies back in the neighborhood used to say, There’s a lid for every pot.
geg6
@WaterGirl:
That’s kind of the same way I react when people swoon over Cumberbatch. I suppose he’s a good person and all, but it’s a visceral reaction that I have to him. Just…gross.
Kiko
@The Pale Scot: Basques and Irish appear to be linked genetically and linguistically in the paleo past.
@Origuy: Blue eye mutation has been tracked to an individual born near the Black Sea around 10,000 years ago.
Also, Genghis Khan had red hair and green eyes. Why don’t they ever show him like that in movies?
Alison
@schrodinger’s cat: Oh but I LOVED the one where they were in some kind of Robin Hood thing and Worf said “I am NOT a merry man!” :P
Villago Delenda Est
@Kiko:
John Wayne refused to dye his hair or wear contacts, for one thing…
Villago Delenda Est
@Alison:
That technically wasn’t a holodeck episode, that was Q messing with the entire crew.
But it was great…especially the nod to Animal House with the mandolin.
geg6
@WereBear:
Ken dolls and muscular types are not attractive to me either. The only actor I can think of that I find really attractive is Clooney. When I was young, I used to go for skinny dark haired guys like Jagger and Tyler and Mercury. Thankfully, I outgrew that and can’t understand what I was thinking. But it was the 70s, so it might have been the acid.
WereBear
@geg6: It’s my theory that people are attracted to a different genetic mix from themselves. Connected to the don’t-sleep-with-your-relatives brain template, and a good help to hybrid vigor.
It can work culturally, too. I’ve been around New Yorkers my whole adult life, and a great many of the women adore the “Southern guy”… they find him exotic. While I grew up with that, and such holds no charms for me… I liked the urban, “ethnic” type which they found boring and un-alluring.
WereBear
And he seems to have been catnip to the ladies!
Pogonip
@gbear: Kazoo solo!
Baud
You know what kind of women I find attractive…?
The female kind.
WereBear
@geg6: Mmm. Nothing wrong with Clooney!
But you’re talking to someone who had a mad crush on Patrick McGoohan, back in the day.
Alison
@Villago Delenda Est: Ooohh, okay. Right right. I admit my Trek knowledge is barely fair-to-middling :)
Pogonip
@Elie: There’s been so many invasions of Sicily over the centuries that darn near every ethnic group on earth contributed to the gene pool, and I would not be a bit surprised to learn of Sicilians who have a Klingon or two in the ancestral woodpile.
BillinGlendaleCA
@MikeJ: Don’t forget the statue of D.B. Cooper.
Ken
@efgoldman:
You know how they say there are only seven basic plots? That was one of TNG’s seven.
(Still better than Voyager and Chakotay’s vision quests.)
schrodinger's cat
@WereBear: Too old!
Betty Cracker
Camped out in a chair in ICU. Mum is unwell. :(
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
That sucks. Hope all turns out ok.
JGabriel
mainmata:
That was my understanding of the traditional definition of Black Irish, although I think straight, but still thick/coarse, black hair is also common.
The Irish Celts are believed to have migrated from Portugal and NW Spain. I think there’s still some debate over whether British Celts (Welsh, Cornwallish) migrated from the same area or from an area roughly encompassing Normandy to Belgium. The Celts in Brittany are a back-migration from Britain.
The original Celts probably started out somewhere in Austria or further east-southeast.
.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Betty Cracker: Best wishes to you both.
WereBear
@Betty Cracker: So sorry to hear.
Pogonip
I had copper-colored hair (gray now), green eyes, and a light complexion but no freckles. Is there a catchy name, e.g. Black Irish, for that combination of genes? We’re assorted types of whites + Cherokee on both sides. No Klingons, Asians, or Africans in the family tree that we know of.
schrodinger's cat
@Betty Cracker: Keeping my fingers crossed for you and your mother.
rikyrah
@Betty Cracker:
Prayers to you and the family Betty
JGabriel
Pogonip:
Not that I know of off-hand. Sounds like there’s some Viking in there, though.
Mnemosyne
test
ETA: Apparently FYWP will brook no criticism of Cumberbatch. But I still prefer Martin Freeman.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
Ugh. Optimistic thoughts headed your way.
IowaOldLady
@Betty Cracker: Sorry, Betty. That’s tough.
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne: Only cats are more popular than Cumberbatch on the intertoobz.
ruemara
Cave dude looks like … pretty much every serious boyfriend I’ve ever had. Slender, a bit pale, dark hair, light eyes. And Cumberbatch looks like newt. Sorry. I do not get the attraction. Since it seems my inner sexy times arrow is faulty, I shall now only go for meaty blonde types with dark eyes who enjoy sports.
I decided to spend a bit of my -$16 of flea market ‘profits’ on a celebratory dinner for passing my web class. Go me. Yay.
Also, AMA re: Trek & Philosophy.
jl
@Origuy:
” the pale skin mutation ”
But now I wonder whether pale skin is a mutation or a matter of gene expression. I read that mesolithic genome caveman story earlier today. It said that he had genes for light skin that were common to modern Europeans and that originated in Africa.
So, even European pale skin, in some sense, has an origin in Africa. That is nice, something else to upset the white racists.
Anne Laurie
@mainmata: I was always told that true ‘black Irish’ had very pale, blue-veined, usually-freckly skin to go with the dark hair & blue eyes — like Richard Nixon, the men with this phenotype have ‘five o’clock shadow’ beards by lunchtime. YMMV…
Mnemosyne
@schrodinger’s cat:
How about Cumberbatch with a cat? (Though I can’t guarantee it’s not Photoshopped.)
Pogonip
@Betty Cracker: Hope she’s soon out of I C U and on her way to recovery.
Ignaz Playel
@Alison: OMG. No. The holodeck malfunctions all the time. I think that is a built in failure programing to prevent people from staying in forever. It’s kind of like Fantasy Island that way. If you stay in too long, eventually the computer gets all judgemental and fixes your simulation to teach to a valuable, moral, life lesson. And then when you want to leave, it won’t open the doors.
WereBear
@jl: One of my anthropology classes pegged it as a matter of Sexy. In Northern climes, pale skin was an advantage, which in Southern ones, dark skin was. Both promoted proper Vitamin D in the different environments; leading to healthier, and more attractive, people with the environmentally friendly skin color.
NotMax
@Ken
Yup. It was a lazy fallback after they wore out the ‘Wesley single-handedly saves the ship’ plot. Plus a convenient budget saver, as they could use the holodeck as an excuse to have present day sets (or locales) and clothing.
Also too, the NSA monitored all holodeck usage. (Made that up, but would set off a flame war or two on a Trek site.)
Pogonip
@Baud: I doubt it. Human nature being what it is, after a while you’d think, “Holodeck AGAIN? Doesn’t anybody have a Tickle Bee game?”
Anne Laurie
@Betty Cracker: You’re in my postive thoughts.
Don’t forget to take care of yourself — even if you have to force yourself to eat something & lie awake in the dark…
WereBear
@Pogonip: Holodeck is infinite.
Anoniminous
@jl:
Mutation. Light skin allows more vitamin D to be produced in low light conditions so it would have an evolutionary advantage.
@Betty Cracker:
I hope things turn out well.
burnspbesq
Welcome to the ACC, Pitt.
JGabriel
@Betty Cracker: Best wishes to Mum. Take care.
Anne Laurie
@Pogonip:
So, you know the 1970s ‘folk theory’ that the Cherokee origin legends about a local man marrying ‘the sky god’s red-haired daughter’ referred to a lost Viking heritage?
Pogonip
@href=”#comment-4839755″>JGabriel:I knew the Vikings were doing something besides distributing white cats and orange cats! There’s a Viking in the woodpile sure as you’re born, that doggone Sven’s been a-shuckin’ my corn!
Kiko
@jl: Modern humans evolved from light skinned hominids.
BruceFromOhio
Oh, Alison. Look what you’ve done.
… and, though it’s been answered, why do you ask? I remain curious.
A favorite dinner table topic (of mine, anyway) was the latest ST:TNG episode featuring either that damned android, or that damned holodeck. C’mon, people, you go into deep space with technology your only barrier against death! If these two appliances were so repeatedly problematic, why didn’t you either unplug the Gaia-damned things, or leave them at home?
ETA: the drawring looks like a police artist rendering of the latest bad guy that everyone is currently looking for. Yeah, I dunno who he is either.
Kiko
@NotMax: As with the Culture, TNG exists in a post-privacy universe.
Pogonip
@Anne Laurie: Hadn’t heard that one, but I am familiar with the legend of the grumpy man who came from the stars and impressed the Cherokee people with his ability to grate cheese on his forehead…no, wait. That was the other grumpy-man legend I was thinking of, about He Who Shaves Cats.
diana
@mainmata: yeah, I was just thinking “sounds like black Irish” myself.
Well if that’s the original Celtic European stock that lays to rest the myth that the black Irish are the survivors of the Spanish Armada. Due to isolation Irish are actually one of the purest and oldest european lineages.
Which means the Irish should be some kind of master race, right? But for some reason no-one ever seems to think us of that way. Must be the 800 years of oppression and all that….
trollhattan
How many ways are there to say holy fvck? I’d like to use all of them for this.
http://wonkette.com/540420/responsible-gun-owner-shoots-new-neighbors-for-standing-on-their-own-ground#more-540420
Am beginning to understand why Cole is such a homebody.
Pogonip
@efgoldman: Plik-plok! Or whatever that all-purpose word of theirs was.
max
@Litlebritdiftrnt: I have always been attracted to men with black hair and blue eyes, my DH has such traits (these days it is grey hair and blue eyes) but whatever.
When I was a late teen, I got hit on by all the gay guys. It mystified me at the time. Then, for completely unrelated reasons, I dyed my hair, going from blond to jet black. Suddenly the ladies liked me a lot better and the gay men did not hit on me. (I realized this in retrospect, some years later.)
My ex (blonde/red) liked that. Then, as my hair retreated, I stopped dying it, and (as I noticed in retrospect), my ex pretty quickly ceased to be interested in me. Later, after we split up, she hooked up with another guy with black hair, and then married a different guy with very dark hair.
Seems to be common.
At any rate, I would take these tales of people crossing the seas in relatively recent times to breed and produce dark-haired children with an entire dump truck of salt.
max
[‘The study itself is interesting, but not conclusive of anything. Excepting the existence of blue eyes much earlier than suspected.’]
Mnemosyne
@trollhattan:
And in case you needed to lose all faith in West Virginia, it appears from photos that the two murder victims were — you guessed it — black.
Pogonip
@max: I have a gay colleague who says the “blondes have more fun” idea started with gay men and stayed with them till Clairol picked it up.
Gravenstone
@Botsplainer: You do remember that threesomes with 7/9 is what helped get Obama elected to the Senate, right?
scav
@Mnemosyne: Nothing at all wrong with John Hamish or Gavin/Graham/ Gertrude/Greg Lestrade, but for conversation it’s definately the Holmes boys, and he of the cheekbones moves well despite some distinctly odd individual parts. As a package deal? Done. The other odd combination of parts that works is Tovey, so allons-y alonzo pour le chien.
Baud
@Gravenstone:
Ha! What a crazy world.
scav
@Pogonip: Well, “Gentlemen Prefer Blondes” goes back at least until 1925, so elements seem to be SOP for a good while.
Botsplainer
@Gravenstone:
Oh, yeah, I remember.
I always figured that as a bona fide hottie, Seven was willing to play games a bit, but that Ryan carried it to extremes and things got unhealthy.
Alison
@BruceFromOhio: Oh, I asked because my parents were discussing it earlier, based on this NYT piece and I just wondered if/how/when it had come up on the show.
Kiko
@Botsplainer: She would not comply.
Bob In Portland
In case anyone’s interested, I’m 2.6% Neanderthal. (I prefer the old spelling.)
muddy
@Bob In Portland: That’s a nice big percentage. I’m much in favor.
Yatsuno
@Betty Cracker: Oh man. :: hug :: Hopefully you have a readily available support system nearby and ready to act. And FWIW I’ve been in an ICU. It mostly means you need to be watched pretty much constantly. She’ll be taken care of.
Cervantes
@Betty Cracker: Sorry to hear it. Sending love and hugs to be shared with everyone there.
WaterGirl
Oh, Betty. Pulling for you and your mum. Hold her hand whenever you can.
A friend of mine who nearly died of a brain clot told me that when things were touch and go, even though he was completely out of it, he could feel the life force when people held his hand.