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You are here: Home / Numbers add up to nothing

Numbers add up to nothing

by DougJ|  March 2, 201410:41 am| 139 Comments

This post is in: Clown Shoes

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This is a strong contender for dumbest commentary on the situation in the Ukraine:

Russians tend to strike neighbors in US election years: Hung 56, Czech 68, Afg 80*, Ga 08, Ukr/Crimea 14 *late Dec 79

— Charles Lane (@ChuckLane1) March 2, 2014

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Previous Post: « Pot, Kettle Alert
Next Post: Where Have All the Cowboys Gone? »

Reader Interactions

139Comments

  1. 1.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 2, 2014 at 10:50 am

    The Crimean War started in 1853. Just saying.

  2. 2.

    Alex S.

    March 2, 2014 at 10:56 am

    Charles Lane was probably thinking how he could tie this crisis to an existing Village narrative. He chose narrative nr.2: the perpetual horserace.

  3. 3.

    Alex S.

    March 2, 2014 at 10:56 am

    Charles Lane was probably thinking how he could tie this crisis to an existing Village narrative. He chose narrative nr.2: the perpetual horserace.

  4. 4.

    SP

    March 2, 2014 at 10:56 am

    When you’re saying it’s significant that five things “tend to” happen that each have a 50% chance anyway, and then one of your examples you have to muddle with an asterisk, well, don’t go submitting your p value to any high quality journals.

  5. 5.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 2, 2014 at 10:57 am

    I wonder if Lane has noticed that the Olympics tend to take place in US election years as well. Coincidence or nefarious plan?

  6. 6.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 2, 2014 at 10:57 am

    They do it in Olympic years, too. It’s all Avery Brundage’s fault.

    For an interesting take on the Olympic aspect, read up on the USSR-Hungary water polo match in the 1956 Melbourne Olympics (held, to be summer in Australia, in December, just a month after Russian tanks rolled into Budapest.)

  7. 7.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    March 2, 2014 at 10:58 am

    I didn’t realize Putin was such a fan boi of the US Congress election calender.

  8. 8.

    MattF

    March 2, 2014 at 10:59 am

    “Pardon me, my head is full of shit.”

  9. 9.

    Michael Bersin

    March 2, 2014 at 11:00 am

    Olympics, also, too. Russian hosted Olympics even.

  10. 10.

    WereBear

    March 2, 2014 at 11:00 am

    Gee, Village, narcissistic much?

  11. 11.

    Michael Bersin

    March 2, 2014 at 11:02 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: American network television is in on the plot, also, too.

  12. 12.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 11:07 am

    The ball is in Ukraine’s court – if they do anything serious in the way of fighting – this will get ugly in a big way really fast. The FSB isn’t gonna allow its puppet and total ass wipe putin to back down or will the FSB tolerate any attack on Russian troops and especially, allow the loss of the Crimea with its critical naval base. What Russia does is currently irrelevant now that it controls the Crimea (adding more troops/guns means little since that is Russian, now); all hangs on Ukraine’s counter actions after this fact. If they shoot at some random troops in a non-plained manner, Russia will not be happy. If they foolishly attempt to attack the Crimea, game over for the Ukraine … .

    No matter what anyone says, this is and remains the ONLY factor – everyone else outside these two players are just farts in the winds, The Ukraine overstepped and is in the shit big time.

  13. 13.

    Chris

    March 2, 2014 at 11:13 am

    Russians tend to strike neighbors in US election years: Hung 56, Czech 68, Afg 80*, Ga 08, Ukr/Crimea 14

    …

    Every other year is a U.S. election year.

  14. 14.

    colby

    March 2, 2014 at 11:13 am

    How did Ukraine overstep?

  15. 15.

    Matt McIrvin

    March 2, 2014 at 11:16 am

    At the other extreme, but related, I’ve been seeing a certain amount of people in other countries cheering on Putin just because they perceive the invasion of Ukraine primarily as a rebuff to US imperialism.

  16. 16.

    Cacti

    March 2, 2014 at 11:20 am

    @Matt McIrvin:

    At the other extreme, but related, I’ve been seeing a certain amount of people in other countries cheering on Putin just because they perceive the invasion of Ukraine primarily as a rebuff to US imperialism.

    Other countries?

    You’ll see plenty of it from a quick visit to any Ukraine-related thread on Democratic Underground.

    You can hear it from “progressive” radio personalities like Thom Hartmann.

  17. 17.

    Mike Dixon, BFA

    March 2, 2014 at 11:21 am

    Of course, Democrat victories in the ’44 midterms led to the Battle of the Bulge just a month later.

  18. 18.

    Cacti

    March 2, 2014 at 11:22 am

    @colby:

    How did Ukraine overstep?

    Because they opposed Putin the magnificent, noble protector of the world’s greatest hero, Edward Snowden.

  19. 19.

    maximiliano furtive, formerly known as dr. bloor

    March 2, 2014 at 11:22 am

    Because everyone recalls how the 1914 election hinged on American voter attitudes toward the Crimean peninsula.

  20. 20.

    Chris

    March 2, 2014 at 11:26 am

    RWNJ friend: “The problem is today it’s Ukraine tomorrow it could be Poland.”

    … why are they SO STUPID?

    Seriously.

    Why the fuck are they SO. FUCKING. STUPID!

  21. 21.

    Davis X. Machina

    March 2, 2014 at 11:29 am

    @Cermet:

    ,,,,or will the FSB allow the loss of the Crimea with its critical naval base

    The Russians expected to lose access to the base at Sevastopol at some point, or Putin wouldn’t have begun the process of building a new one, at Novorossiysk, in 2003. The Russians only started to slow-walk the project and the Ukrainians decided to extend the lease on Sevastopol, after the 2010 Ukrainian election.

  22. 22.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 2, 2014 at 11:29 am

    @Chris: I am going with because they are stupid.

  23. 23.

    Frankensteinbeck

    March 2, 2014 at 11:30 am

    @Matt McIrvin:

    a certain amount of people in other countries

    A certain amount of people in every country support every position imaginable. The stupider the position, the more loudly they support it. If you can find proof that even double digits percentages of any country around Ukraine believes this is push back against American meddling, that will be relevant. If you can find proof that double digit percentages in countries nowhere near Ukraine believe that, it will be interesting.

  24. 24.

    maya

    March 2, 2014 at 11:30 am

    This is what happens when we let Jesus Christ Holy Ghostwrite our Constitution.

  25. 25.

    Michael Bersin

    March 2, 2014 at 11:33 am

    @maximiliano furtive, formerly known as dr. bloor:

    Absolutely. And the last Passenger Pigeon died in 1914, too. A coincidence? I think not.

  26. 26.

    Marc

    March 2, 2014 at 11:34 am

    Hey, if you consider presidential elections, midterm elections, and years before midterm or presidential elections, he’s absolutely right!

  27. 27.

    Elizabelle

    March 2, 2014 at 11:44 am

    Low hanging fruit for this blogpost.

    Look who it’s from.

  28. 28.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 2, 2014 at 11:44 am

    @Chris:

    This isn’t new. In the 80’s, it was “If we don’t stop them in Nicaragua, we’ll have to stop them on the Rio Grande.”

    They’re fuckheads. It’s their nature.

  29. 29.

    Suffern ACE

    March 2, 2014 at 11:45 am

    @Chris: maybe to keep the peace in the world, the US should have fewer elections. Maybe we should just let Obama stay on indefinitely. For the sake of peace, you know. I didn’t know how altruistic authoritarianism can be.

  30. 30.

    kc

    March 2, 2014 at 11:46 am

    Are you sure that’s not Roland Hedley’s Twitter feed?

  31. 31.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 2, 2014 at 11:46 am

    @Marc:

    Lane has always had cause and effect issues. This is just one of the most blatant examples of just how full of shit he always is.

  32. 32.

    schrodinger's cat

    March 2, 2014 at 11:55 am

    Why are our Punditubbies so innumerate? If we replaced them all with kids who run college newspapers we would see a marked improvement in the discourse.

  33. 33.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 2, 2014 at 11:57 am

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Hell, if we replaced them with kittens, you’d get the same results as the college students (a marked improvement), and the kittens would be cute!

  34. 34.

    Duane

    March 2, 2014 at 11:58 am

    sorta like saying the Russians are quite considerate since they only attack on days that end in Y.

  35. 35.

    PJ

    March 2, 2014 at 12:03 pm

    @Cermet: You are so right, daring to demand a government not run by kleptocrats was just begging for a spanking and land grab from daddy Putin.

  36. 36.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    March 2, 2014 at 12:03 pm

    Narcijingoism?

    Surprised he didn’t mention Chechnya.

  37. 37.

    Chris

    March 2, 2014 at 12:05 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Yeah, my mind went right to Saint Ronnie’s Nicaragua quote.

    Everything since World War Two has been a new Sudetenland for them. Regardless of the enemy-of-the-week’s behavior and actual capabilities.

  38. 38.

    gene108

    March 2, 2014 at 12:07 pm

    @Chris:

    Every other year is a U.S. election year.

    2013 was an election year for NJ and VA.

    There’s probably a school board vote going on in off-off year elections. as well.

    There’s always an election going on in the USA.

  39. 39.

    Mandalay

    March 2, 2014 at 12:36 pm

    @Davis X. Machina:

    The Russians expected to lose access to the base at Sevastopol at some point, or Putin wouldn’t have begun the process of building a new one, at Novorossiysk, in 2003.

    Not entirely O/T, this also explains why Russia will always be BFF with Assad.

  40. 40.

    SFAW

    March 2, 2014 at 12:41 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    This isn’t new. In the 80′s, it was “If we don’t stop them in Nicaragua, we’ll have to stop them on the Rio Grande.”

    a/k/a “we’re fighting the terrists commies over down there so we don’t have to fight them over up here.”

  41. 41.

    Roger Moore

    March 2, 2014 at 12:45 pm

    I notice he conveniently left out the Soviet invasion of Poland and the Winter War with Finland, both started in 1939.

  42. 42.

    Jay C

    March 2, 2014 at 1:07 pm

    @Chris:

    Everything since World War Two has been a new Sudetenland for them

    Actually, to be more exact, for most neocon/RW critics of US foreign policy, everything since WWII (except under Republican Administrations) has been a new “Munich” – nor so much the underlying “crisis”, but the reaction to it: i.e., in most RW narrative, a weak-willed “sellout” or “cowardly” cave to the villain-of-the-day: which of course, could always have been better dealt-with by a heroic display of “will” or “resolve” (i.e. force).

    Though the “Sudetenland” analogy, today, is actually spot-on as regards the Crimean crisis: a move – by force – by a major power to reclaim/annex an ethnic enclave of “their” citizens in a geographically contiguous part of a neighboring country. However, unlike Hitler in 1938, Pres. Putin didn’t bother with a preliminary PR campaign to work up an excuse to grab the Crimea: he just sent in troops. I guess things move quicker nowadays….

  43. 43.

    Marc

    March 2, 2014 at 1:07 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: To say nothing of the Village’s general innumeracy.

  44. 44.

    GregB

    March 2, 2014 at 1:10 pm

    Word has it that Putin was trying to influence the special election in Florida’s 9th Congressional District.

    He also plans to re-invade Georgia in May in order to effect the Texas Agricultural Commissioner’s election.

  45. 45.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 1:18 pm

    @colby: Just got back – the overthrow of the previous policy of “Balance the line between placating Russia and alignment to the West” suddenly became a government of future alignment with the West. Russia wasn’t going to tolerate any such realignment. That is over stepping; not unlike we would not tolerate any direct threat (by anyone) to “our” asses to middle east oil.

  46. 46.

    Chris

    March 2, 2014 at 1:19 pm

    @Jay C:

    Which kind of makes it ironic that in 1938, most conservatives were only beginning to wake up to the fact that this Hitler character and his Nazism thing might not, in fact, be the greatest thing since sliced bread. The people who called the fascism threat correctly and from the beginning were almost all on the left.

    Whoops.

  47. 47.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 2, 2014 at 1:19 pm

    @Cermet:

    “access” perhaps?

    Still time to edit!

  48. 48.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 1:21 pm

    @Davis X. Machina: Building a base with inferior access and port is not the same’ also,I’d think that for Russians, that is a only a backup plan for the future. This change right now is a direct threat to the people Russian knew were dependable. Nuclear superpowers do not tolerate unknowns when it comes to access and control to the ocean; just ask anyone who negotiates with the US about its navy.

  49. 49.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 1:24 pm

    @Jay C: Uh, the troops were already stationed there at the naval base. You forget that this is one of two primary Atlantic naval bases for the Russians. Hardly, in any manner the same situation as the Sudetenland.

  50. 50.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 2, 2014 at 1:26 pm

    Warm Water Ports!

    Warm Water Ports!

    Warm Water Ports!

    This has been brought to you by the staff at Russian History 101!

  51. 51.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 1:36 pm

    This is really funny in a terribly tragic way when Kerry says on “Face the Nation”:
    ”You just don’t in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext,” he said.

    Really? Lets see, how many HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS died at our hands on the trumped up WMD’s in Iraq? When the Russians start killing even just 10,000 Ukrainians I’ll consider their occupation a crime. We, however, are guilty of war crimes on a massive scale.

    As I said before – this isn’t our problem nor should we give two shits about it. If the Ukraine’s want to die by the tens of thousands to protect their fragmented country, that is their business. Our’s is to watch and cry Crocodile tears – I mean they are white; not like those brown Arabs in Iraq.

  52. 52.

    Suffern ACE

    March 2, 2014 at 1:38 pm

    @Jay C: ummm. Putin has in fact been playing PR. For the west, he’s letting us know he’s restoring order from the threat of Ukranianian Nazis. For the East, he’s restoring order from gay Jewish Western Europeans.

  53. 53.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 1:40 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Does that really matter on this site? Some people here don’t even use capitalized letters to start a sentence – try being consistent before being pointless.

  54. 54.

    Chris

    March 2, 2014 at 1:41 pm

    @Cermet:

    I preemptively nominate this for Self-Awareness Fail Award and Black Humor Award of the year.

    It would be a little less biting if he, personally, hadn’t voted for the Iraq War, but…

  55. 55.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 1:42 pm

    @Suffern ACE: Putin is a piece of shit and a soulless FSB puppet for the real powers in Russia. Strange, but their 0.001%, unlike here”, do not really control their country.

  56. 56.

    Suffern ACE

    March 2, 2014 at 1:43 pm

    @Jay C: the Munich thing dominates now, sure. It would have been better to start the war earlier, yadayadayada.

    This is the new Yalta, where Obama is going to be playing the part of FDR, giving away Poland when he should have been pressing for more war with the Commies, or something like that.

  57. 57.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 1:44 pm

    @Chris: Agreed.

  58. 58.

    Bob In Portland

    March 2, 2014 at 1:45 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: There was a causal relationship between Saigon and San Diego back in the sixties.

  59. 59.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 2, 2014 at 1:48 pm

    @Cermet:

    Here’s the sentence in question:

    That is over stepping; not unlike we would not tolerate any direct threat (by anyone) to “our” asses to middle east oil.

    Which is why I suggested “access” might have been what you were shooting for, but the spellchecker let you slide.

    Yes, yes, the readers can usually make the leap…lord knows, in my posts, sometimes they are compelled to do so, as I commit some spelling or grammatical faux pas with distressing frequency, but I think we should all strive to be as clear as we can in written communications. I know I spend a great deal of time fixing stuff that I submitted on the fly that is ambiguous or poorly worded…and even then, I don’t always get the correction in or make myself suitably clear.

  60. 60.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 1:48 pm

    The one good thing this whole episode will have is the Nig … I mean the black gentleman in the White House … will get attacked by all sides – the wing nuts, the thugs, tea baggers, some extreme crazies on left, the media and some other under the rock dwellers. This is a golden opportunity to teach that one a lesson. The Ukraine’s are irrelevant relative to those ass wipes.

  61. 61.

    Chris

    March 2, 2014 at 1:48 pm

    @Suffern ACE:

    Nah, I think they realized a while that they’d done Cold War references to death and that they’d just never pack the same punch as World War Two references, especially now that the Cold War’s over.

  62. 62.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 2, 2014 at 1:49 pm

    @Bob In Portland:

    It was fulfilled, too, when Saigon fell. Except we didn’t get Viet Cong invaders, we got ARVN refugees.

  63. 63.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 2, 2014 at 1:49 pm

    @Chris:

    WWII was “the good war”, unless you’re Pat Buchanan and you’re convinced we fought on the wrong side.

  64. 64.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 2, 2014 at 1:52 pm

    @Cermet:

    Well, given the history of the 20th Century, one need not go back to the 19th to drag up examples.

    “What about Poland?”

  65. 65.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 1:54 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: You are correct. Also, as you point out, typo’s occur by all of us and they can cloud meaning a good bit. But the issue of starting sentences without capitals occurs far, far too often and I feel that is a major transgression of grammar.

  66. 66.

    Bob In Portland

    March 2, 2014 at 1:54 pm

    Expect to see happy pro-Soviets in Crimea waving flags and eating cake. That would be the proper propaganda move, folks there saying that they want nothing to do with Kiev. I expected Russia to seize the entire east, but maybe they’re waiting for the usurpers to do something stupid, three, two, one.

    And the US/EU can’t say anything about the duly-elected government on the Sunday talk shows. Well, maybe on Fox…

  67. 67.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 2, 2014 at 1:55 pm

    @Cermet:

    Well, we share that concern. I suggest we convene a death panel at once, and deal with the offenders in some vague sort of medieval way.

  68. 68.

    Suffern ACE

    March 2, 2014 at 1:56 pm

    @Cermet: oh, screw you and you’re capitalisation fetish.

  69. 69.

    Bob In Portland

    March 2, 2014 at 1:56 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Fulfilled? By those Vietnamese sandwich shops along Clement Street in San Francisco?

  70. 70.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 1:57 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: If I recall, the Russians won WW II before a single US soldier ever touched a foot in North Africa, much less Europe. Exactly who was it that died by the millions so the so-called “greatest generation” could face less than 30% of the German armies and many second level ones at that.

  71. 71.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 1:58 pm

    @Suffern ACE: Touchy little child, aren’t you?

  72. 72.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 2:01 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: That will work well if we can just get the Germans to invade Western Ukraine as the Russians take Eastern Ukraine. Might just solve this whole issue.

  73. 73.

    Davis X. Machina

    March 2, 2014 at 2:03 pm

    @Cermet: Half a billion rubles worth of backup…. that’s how sure they were going to still be in Sevastopol.

  74. 74.

    Chris

    March 2, 2014 at 2:04 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Not everyone gets the memo.

  75. 75.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 2, 2014 at 2:05 pm

    @Cermet:

    It is a sad, but true, fact that most Americans have no fucking idea that untold millions died over on the Eastern Front. They also have no idea that the US provided a great deal of materiel for that fight, such as the reliable Studebaker truck, which Uncle Joe himself praised. Freed up a lot of Russian industry to make all those T-34s, artillery (always a Russian forte), and Sturmoviks that caused Hitler’s armies so much distress.

  76. 76.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 2:09 pm

    @Davis X. Machina: They spent over 50 billion rubles on the games. You are serious? That is all they have spent? That is amazing even for the Russians – I would expect them to make a serious effort in building that critical of a backup base.

    Been fun but time to get to work. I need to finish making some armour for testing against a hyper-sonic weapon (the navy will provide that weapon.) I use the name cermet for a reason … .

  77. 77.

    vhh

    March 2, 2014 at 2:09 pm

    Poland, 1981. The stupid, it burns.

  78. 78.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 2:13 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Yes, our material supplies were useful but far from critical. We even, for a short time, had a B-17 bomber base in (wait for it) the Ukraine area of Russia. They lost about 20 million people in that war and were driving the Germans back before our soldiers fired a single shot in anger at the German land forces (our bombers, on the other hand, were more active.) We do forget who really died in mass to save our soldiers; yes, they were fighting for there own skins but facts are facts – our blood was spared by their efforts. This does not excuse what the Russians are doing in Crimea but that is a fight we just don’t have any dogs in … .

  79. 79.

    Origuy

    March 2, 2014 at 2:17 pm

    @Cermet: No, they spent over 50 billion DOLLARS on the Olympics. That would be about 150 billion rubles.

  80. 80.

    Cervantes

    March 2, 2014 at 2:31 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: Er … maybe not including Dinesh D’Souza, Laura Ingraham, Ross Douthat, and so on.

  81. 81.

    Bob In Portland

    March 2, 2014 at 2:35 pm

    There’s an article in the NY Times this a.m. (sorry, can’t link to it on this device) which says that the interim government is planning on naming oligarchs as governors of the eastern provinces that lean towards Russia.

    First, what’s wrong with the governors already there who were elected? And oligarchs? Usually fascists are less obvious, but apparently not in the new Ukraine. They’ve streamlined democracy.

  82. 82.

    Ernest Pikeman

    March 2, 2014 at 2:39 pm

    @Cermet:

    As I said before – this isn’t our problem nor should we give two shits about it

    Who, pray tell, is this “us” you keep talking for? Maybe you don’t give two shits for anything beyond your little town or county or state or whatever provincialist identity you hold. Other people happen to care about other people in the world.

  83. 83.

    Origuy

    March 2, 2014 at 2:42 pm

    @Bob In Portland: @Bob In Portland: Provincial governors of Ukraine, like those of Russia and other countries, are appointed from above, not elected from below. The Wikipedia article says:

    Also, the President appoints and dismisses the Heads of the Local State Administrations (i.e. governors) by nomination of the Cabinet of Ministers.

    I happen to think this is a bad idea, but it seems popular. I remember hearing about governors in Egypt being replaced a while back.

  84. 84.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    March 2, 2014 at 2:45 pm

    @Cermet:

    Holy bad fucking history!

    I could pointy out that the Torch landings occurred while the Nazis were still pushing the Soviets backwards, but that wouldn’t be the first shots fired by the US- those were fired at sea, something the Soviets didn’t do much. I could point out that it was the US Navy that protected convoys that supplied the Soviets with the materiel required to push the Nazis back.. I could point out that navies are really, really expensive to build, and that the US had to build a navy large enough to fight on multiple fronts. I could make all of these points and plenty more, but there are the more important points:

    The Soviets, in an alliance formed with the Nazis, invaded Poland in September of 1939. In November of 1939, the Soviets invaded Finland. In June of 1940, the Soviets invaded and annexed Lithuania. Estonia and Latvia.

    So, sure, the Soviet Union fired shots in anger in WWII before the U.S.. Congratu-fuckin’-lations.

  85. 85.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 2, 2014 at 2:46 pm

    @Bob In Portland: First, what’s wrong with the governors already there who were elected?

    What’s wrong? The fact that the governors (Heads of Local State Administration) are *not elected*. They are Presidential appointees.

    Another day ending in “y” is another day Bob needs to do some homework before spouting off here.

  86. 86.

    Davis X. Machina

    March 2, 2014 at 2:48 pm

    @Cermet: It was on-again, off-again depending on the government in Kiev, and the state of negotiations.

  87. 87.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 2, 2014 at 2:49 pm

    @Origuy: Off by a factor of 10. The official exchange rate is 35 rubles to the dollar, the unofficial rate as of today is about 40 and climbing. So it’s close to two trillion rubles.

  88. 88.

    James E. Powell

    March 2, 2014 at 2:54 pm

    @Chris:

    The people who called the fascism threat correctly and from the beginning were almost all on the left.

    Not according to right-wing historians.

  89. 89.

    Origuy

    March 2, 2014 at 2:55 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: No wonder my Russian trip last year cost so much! Actually, math fail. I dropped a zero by doing it in my head.

  90. 90.

    Roger That

    March 2, 2014 at 2:59 pm

    Russia only invades in months that end with ь or т*.

    * and sometimes й

  91. 91.

    SFAW

    March 2, 2014 at 2:59 pm

    @James E. Powell:

    Not according to right-wing historians.

    Whose primary sources were noted Nazi-haters such as Prescott Bush and Chuckles Lindbergh.

  92. 92.

    Bob In Portland

    March 2, 2014 at 3:13 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: So they normally reappoint governors around the Ides of March? They have no existing governors?

    Your snotty little remark pretty much reflects the non-democratic aspects of the current regime. Replace the president by force. Replace the governors maybe by force. Maybe because the governors of that region don’t recognize the coup-created government. That should sit well with the people in the east. Abolish the official language.

    Well, we see how this is going to end, don’t we? More pure Ukrainian blood to be spilled for the Fatherland.

    And it doesn’t discount that this arrangement fits nicely into the classic definition of fascism. Maybe President McCain can appoint that Papa John’s guy to be governor of Tennessee. He’s got a big enough house, and he’s got the right attitude.

  93. 93.

    Bob In Portland

    March 2, 2014 at 3:21 pm

    @Origuy: As I mentioned elsewhere, at least one of the governors to be replaced announced that he did not recognize the coup-created government. I’m guessing that this will not sit well with the people in the East. Three, two, one.

    Also, the oligarchs themselves might be thinking, “Hmm, do I want to be an oligarch in Russia or do I want to be an oligarch in a bankrupt Ukraine?” And being an oligarch in Russia comes with the added bonus of fuel to run your factory. Heck, even Timonshenko (sic) might go for that.

  94. 94.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 2, 2014 at 3:36 pm

    @Bob In Portland: Did you even read the article you mentioned?

    The ultra-wealthy industrialists wield such power in Ukraine that they form what amounts to a shadow government, with empires of steel and coal, telecoms and media, and armies of workers. Persuading some to serve as governors in the east was a small victory for the new government in Kiev.

    Do you know anything about the current or proposed governors of Donetsk or Dnipropetrovsk? Do you know how the oligarchs work in Ukraine or Russia, how they’ve worked for the last 20 years? Do you know who Rinat Akhmetov is, how he got to where he is and whom he backs? Is he “left” or “right” by any (meaningless) Western European standards? No, it’s not democratic, and hasn’t been for decades. Political parties are known to be on this or that oligarch’s payroll. Some, like Poroshenko, are pretty clearly on one side; most of the rest are hedging their bets. Appointing Taruta and Kolomoysky is, at the very best, a sign of an attempt to reconcile with the east on the part of the current government; in the eyes of westerners it is closer to capitulation.

    Sorry that things don’t fit into your black and white world view, but your ignorance of current events seems bottomless, yet you come here do demonstrate it anew every day.

    And nobody “abolished an official language.” Russian briefly had a status of a “regional language”, but it was and remains the de-facto language in some of the East. Nobody makes a big deal about it, just as nobody makes a big deal about street signs in Hungarian in parts of the southwest. Most people are bi- or multi-lingual. I know Ukrainian-speakers in Sevastopol, who get along just fine speaking Ukrainian; Russian tourists are all over Lviv, getting along just fine; the leading journalist of the Maidan movement is an Afghani Muslim who writes exclusively in Russian. It’s both more complicated and less tense than you imagine, reading your steady diet of Russian propaganda.

  95. 95.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 2, 2014 at 3:38 pm

    @Bob In Portland: And being an oligarch in Russia comes with the added bonus of fuel to run your factory

    Worked out so well for Boris Berezovsky and Mikhail Khodorkovsky. How many Ukrainian oligarchs have been killed or imprisoned?

  96. 96.

    Bob In Portland

    March 2, 2014 at 3:46 pm

    You never answered that question but I can guess why you don’t see fascists in the streets. I see your blind spot, Gin.

    A shadow government? When you open up a dictionary you’ll understand how fascism works everywhere, including the US.

    You need to know what Parrington knew.

  97. 97.

    Bob In Portland

    March 2, 2014 at 3:53 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: No big deal? That’s not what the ethnic Russians are saying. But then you don’t seem to pay much attention to them either. Maybe there’s a language difference.

    You know, you can’t snark your way to a smooth regime change. The fascists in Kiev had a half-assed coup without bringing the east on board, and they have no reason to get on board as long as there are parades for Stephan Bandera and swastikas and Confederate flags hanging in city hall in Kiev.

    I hear the Ukrainian navy is defecting to Russia, so it sounds like this is going to have to be a land war, eh fuhrer? Where are the Panzers when you need them?!?

  98. 98.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 2, 2014 at 3:57 pm

    @Bob In Portland: *Every* government there for a hundred years has been more or less undemocratic. You’re the one pretending that after having been vanquished by the glorious Red Army in the Great Patriotic War 70 years ago, fascistic tendencies reappeared two weeks ago. The oligarchs didn’t suddenly appear.

  99. 99.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 2, 2014 at 3:59 pm

    @Bob In Portland: Fuhrer?

    Fuck you, Bob.

  100. 100.

    mike in dc

    March 2, 2014 at 4:04 pm

    @Bob In Portland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

    It’s good to know that other countries can rely on our security assurances when they’re giving up their nuclear arsenals.

  101. 101.

    Bob In Portland

    March 2, 2014 at 4:10 pm

    Gin, if you rely on rioters in the streets for your moral authority and justification you may get Kerry to wave a flag, but it doesn’t seem to be working in the eastern Ukraine, soon to be named something else. Your farmers in the west, after they burn down the synagogues, can build tanks out of straw for the Great War to come.

    Hey, be happy. You got what you wanted. Deal with it. Maybe Kiev can be a tourist attraction for anti-Semites around the world. Maybe have “Hunt-A-Jew” safaris followed by a steamy hot bowl of porridge. Good luck.

  102. 102.

    Bob In Portland

    March 2, 2014 at 4:12 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Petit fuhrer.

  103. 103.

    sm*t cl*de

    March 2, 2014 at 4:16 pm

    a strong contender for dumbest commentary on the situation in the Ukraine

    I see that people are already taking this as a challenge.

  104. 104.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 2, 2014 at 4:26 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Their artillery was used effectively and en masse, but they never were particularly accurate or good at things like pinpoint counter battery fire. If you simply flatten a grid square, you will hit the target within it.

  105. 105.

    The Sheriff's A Ni-

    March 2, 2014 at 4:29 pm

    @Bob In Portland: How good is the pay rate from the FSB, comrade?

  106. 106.

    Roger That

    March 2, 2014 at 4:53 pm

    The Russian sympathizers are what’s keeping Ukrainian antisemitism in check? ahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahaa

  107. 107.

    Matt McIrvin

    March 2, 2014 at 4:59 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: In this case they seemed to be Australian and Turkish radical lefties, some of whom were also 9/11 truthers. But, yeah, I suspect this is not super-mainstream.

  108. 108.

    David Koch

    March 2, 2014 at 5:11 pm

    `

  109. 109.

    GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)

    March 2, 2014 at 5:18 pm

    @Bob In Portland:

    You’re quite the piece of work, bub.

    Toddle off to Democratic Underground, or DKos, please. Seriously, please leave.

  110. 110.

    mike in dc

    March 2, 2014 at 5:42 pm

    http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

  111. 111.

    opiejeanne

    March 2, 2014 at 5:50 pm

    @Chris: In California it’s almost every year.

  112. 112.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    March 2, 2014 at 6:39 pm

    @mike in dc: Thanks for the pointer. That’s a a really good read.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  113. 113.

    Mike E

    March 2, 2014 at 7:01 pm

    Heh, mebbe two buck Chuck is dot-dot-dashing out some super secret plea for Pooty to come over and rid us of this worrisome “elections” business, especially when dems, blahs and wimmins win the darn things…

  114. 114.

    tybee

    March 2, 2014 at 7:05 pm

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):

    yeah, some need a bit of understanding of exactly what the west sent to the soviets during the war.

    http://ww2-weapons.com/History/Production/Russia/Lend-Lease.htm

    also note exactly what the soviets did with japan prior to may of 1945 while the west was fighting that front, too.

    the rooskies certainly didn’t win it all by themselves.

  115. 115.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 2, 2014 at 7:33 pm

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Timothy Snyder is one of the leading authorities on the region. If you have the stomach, read his book Bloodlands. It is a very difficult book.

  116. 116.

    Cervantes

    March 2, 2014 at 7:58 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Yes.

    Also I’d recommend the following, by Roman Szporluk:

    A collection of essays written over two or three decades: Russia, Ukraine, and the Breakup of the Soviet Union (2000).

    And “The Making of Modern Ukraine: The Western Dimension,” in A Laboratory of Transnational History, G. Kasianov & P. There, eds. (2009).

    Szporluk is a good historian. These works are not hot off the presses but they are well worth reading.

  117. 117.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    March 2, 2014 at 8:33 pm

    @Cervantes: Thanks for the recommendations from both of you.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  118. 118.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 8:38 pm

    @vhh: Just got back; yes, the stupid does burn. When next you jump into a thread try reading it first, stupid. We were talking about WW II. If you then draw a parallel about Poland in a thread about WW II, and add no other information, it follows the thread’s logic – otherwise, if you jump to 1981, then you need to add that to your first post. Yes, the stupid that burns is you.

  119. 119.

    Bob In Portland

    March 2, 2014 at 8:43 pm

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
    @GHayduke (formerly lojasmo):

    No.

  120. 120.

    Cermet

    March 2, 2014 at 8:45 pm

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Yes, we fought some very minor sea battles and had an aggressive bomber campaign – wow;sure that won the war with no ground troops; oops, it didn’t even slow German war production much less free any country. On the other hand, millions of German foot soldiers (entire Army Groups destroyed) were being killed and many more wounded by Russians. Our efforts were minor compared to that – World Wars are won on the ground, not on the sea or in the air. Try learning reality. The war was won by the Russian armies before we fought the Germans on the land.

  121. 121.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 2, 2014 at 9:01 pm

    @Cermet: The war was won by Russian armies in early 1942?

  122. 122.

    dmbeaster

    March 2, 2014 at 9:08 pm

    @Cermet: So what. The Germans decided to commit their maximum effort against the Russians, who overcame it at tremendous cost. That happened in part because Stalin thought it expedient to allow Hitler free hand to take apart the West before turning attention east. Reap what you sow.

  123. 123.

    liberal

    March 2, 2014 at 9:21 pm

    @Cermet:

    We do forget who really died in mass to save our soldiers; yes, they were fighting for there own skins but facts are facts – our blood was spared by their efforts.

    I always thought that way, and one time looked up some stats to try to come up with back-of-the-envelope numbers.

    My recollection is that at least 5/6 of German casualties were inflicted by the USSR.

  124. 124.

    Cervantes

    March 2, 2014 at 9:27 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: That seems a bit off to me.

  125. 125.

    liberal

    March 2, 2014 at 9:29 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Western ground forces weren’t involved in way that posed an extreme strategic threat to the Germans until D-Day.

  126. 126.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 2, 2014 at 9:30 pm

    @Cervantes: Yes, it is quite a bit off.

  127. 127.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    March 2, 2014 at 9:31 pm

    @tybee:

    And that doesn’t even include all of the Studebaker trucks that went there that helped move their soldiers and supplies.

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    No, it wasn’t, but you know that. It was the Soviet counter-offensives around Stalingrad that marked the beginning of the end, and those began on 11/9/1942, eleven days after the Torch landings. One might concede that it was Hitler’s goals- or, at least, his pigheadedness about taking Stalingrad, rather than cutting the Volga north or south of the city- in July of ’42 that signaled the beginning of the end, and that less because of the Soviets, but because the bombing/shelling of that city made it a perfect trap for the Soviets to exploit. The ruins of the city played to the Soviets advantage for a few reasons, the most important being that those ruins basically made worthless the Nazis’ tanks.

  128. 128.

    Bob In Portland

    March 2, 2014 at 9:33 pm

    @Roger That: Huh?

    As are most things, it’s a matter of degrees. The guy who keeps telling me to fuck myself seems to think I see things in black and white. I don’t. I don’t like coups, generally, and what happened in Kiev was a reactionary coup. The best description of my political leanings is that I’m an anti-fascist and there are a lot of fascists among the coup makers.

    Anti-Semites? I guess you can find them in just about any country, but there are only a few countries that actually killed a million Jews. I would have hoped that Radio Liberty wouldn’t have broadcast anti-Semitic speeches into Ukraine.

  129. 129.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 2, 2014 at 9:35 pm

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Have you read Antony Beevor’s Stalingrad?

  130. 130.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    March 2, 2014 at 9:40 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    No, I’ve got to get around to it. I’ve been reading a lot of Civil War history the last few years, and I’ve been mixing in some WWI reading lately. I figure I’ll get back to WWII in a few more years.

  131. 131.

    Cervantes

    March 2, 2014 at 9:43 pm

    @liberal:

    My recollection is that at least 5/6 of German casualties were inflicted by the USSR.

    Interesting. Are you talking about military casualties only? If so, the best estimate I’ve seen is 2/3.

  132. 132.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    March 2, 2014 at 9:52 pm

    Employing 20/20 hindsight, Kursk (July and August of 1943) is where the Soviets really began to win the war. They lose there, and who knows how long it goes on?

  133. 133.

    Cervantes

    March 2, 2014 at 9:55 pm

    @Bob In Portland:

    what happened in Kiev was a reactionary coup.

    This week, you mean?

    Just to see if we’re on the same page, can I ask what you saw happen in the Maidan in 2004?

    And how about in 1990?

    The best description of my political leanings is that I’m an anti-fascist and there are a lot of fascists among the coup makers.

    I share your political leanings.

    There are fascists in all sorts of places.

  134. 134.

    colby

    March 2, 2014 at 10:55 pm

    @Cermet: I guess I can see how Russia would frame the issue that, but “overstep” makes it sound like Ukraine was the aggressor when all the really did was decide to go the dance with a different girl. And the comparison to our willingness to go to war for oil doesn’t really speak to the justice of Russia’s position here…

  135. 135.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    March 2, 2014 at 11:21 pm

    Speaking of numbers, I just noticed that the Ruble is weaker now than at the height of the Great Recession.

    http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=RUB&view=10Y

    $1 = 36.55 RUB now vs 36.08 RUB in Feb 2009.

    Perhaps that will cause Vlad to re-think things a little…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  136. 136.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 2, 2014 at 11:36 pm

    @Cervantes: And now as Angela Merkel runs to Putin’s aid, it will be interesting to see who this week’s fascists are.

  137. 137.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 2, 2014 at 11:37 pm

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: It’s well over 40 in the unofficial market.

  138. 138.

    Cervantes

    March 3, 2014 at 8:01 am

    @Gin & Tonic:

    And now as Angela Merkel runs to Putin’s aid, it will be interesting to see who this week’s fascists are.

    It is a bitterly unfair aspect of this world that perception, knowledge, and argument all have to precede understanding.

  139. 139.

    Pat

    March 7, 2014 at 5:34 am

    Man, the post title was killing me until I gave up and Googled it. That’s a great song.

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