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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Monday Evening Open Thread

Monday Evening Open Thread

by Anne Laurie|  March 10, 20145:12 pm| 137 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads, Clown Shoes

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We are all basement-dwelling bloggers now:

Hey @politico, that definite article is pretty important here http://t.co/UT0pbOjeSn h/t @mollyesque pic.twitter.com/NdoCNdSspr

— David A. Graham (@GrahamDavidA) March 7, 2014

Looks like Politico is stealing fashion tips from our beloved Blogmaster…

Apart from grammatical insurrection, what’s on the agenda for the evening?

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Previous Post: « Following the Money
Next Post: The Passion of the Douche »

Reader Interactions

137Comments

  1. 1.

    kindness

    March 10, 2014 at 5:20 pm

    As long as they aren’t Mom jeans.

    What if your mother wore Levis?

  2. 2.

    ulee

    March 10, 2014 at 5:24 pm

    Been over to Just One Minute. Noone there will defend Paul Ryan for saying that children should go hungry to raise their self-esteem. It’s an echo chamber of hate there.

  3. 3.

    max

    March 10, 2014 at 5:26 pm

    Julian Assange: Is President Obama wearing pants?

    I suspect he is, in fact, wearing pants. But you know, if he wasn’t wearing pants at the moment, I wouldn’t care.

    max
    [‘Politico: We Don’t Care About Policy, We Just Want the Money.’]

  4. 4.

    Belafon

    March 10, 2014 at 5:27 pm

    @kindness: “Your mama wears Wranglers!” “Take that back!”

  5. 5.

    Linda Featheringill

    March 10, 2014 at 5:32 pm

    @kindness:

    My mother actually wore Dad’s britches under a dress when when out in the muddy barnyard. And combat boots.

    She was ahead of her time, obviously.

    At one point in her life, my daughter wore long, filmy skirts with combat boots.

    Maybe I missed out on something?

  6. 6.

    Botsplainer

    March 10, 2014 at 5:34 pm

    @max:

    I suspect he is, in fact, wearing pants. But you know, if he wasn’t wearing pants at the moment, I wouldn’t care.

    Actually, I think it would kind of be awesome if he decided to work occasionally in the Oval Office sans pants. You know, like anybody else who works from home.

    I’d have to sit at the Resolute desk, my boxered (or better yet, naked) ass in the chair, slurping a cheap beer and eating some summer sausage and crackers while rocking out to some tunes and chugging through paperwork late at night.

  7. 7.

    Baud

    March 10, 2014 at 5:34 pm

    We never should have dropped the “the” from Ukraine. Now everyone thinks it’s optional.

  8. 8.

    raven

    March 10, 2014 at 5:35 pm

    @Linda Featheringill: Corcoran’s?

  9. 9.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 10, 2014 at 5:38 pm

    The regulars know by now that I follow the situation in Ukraine pretty closely. What strikes me when I see something like this, a current billboard up in Sevastopol, which says “March 16 we choose”; or troops placing land mines at the border between Crimea and mainland Ukraine; or armed men blocking OSCE observers from entering Crimea, or chasing out the UN Secretary-General’s representative, or beating up journalists and stealing their equipment; or the large companies of men in identical unmarked uniforms carrying military weapons and driving in APC’s without license plates; or forcing the local cable company to disconnect all Ukrainian TV stations — is that this seems like Russia is dealing from a position of weakness. Yes, Putin controls the numerically and logistically superior military; yes, he is prevailing for now, but this doesn’t seem like a winning long game. When the pro-independence (“nationalist”) Ukrainian side has as its platform “we want to modernize the economy, root out corruption and become closer to Europe” and the pro-Russian side has as its platform “those guys are Nazis,” debate seems pretty one-sided.

    But I can’t help contrast how in Kiev, during the most tense and violent days, journalists and foreign observers and diplomats could go wherever they wanted and speak with pretty much anyone they wanted to (unless there was actual gunfire,) yet the people in the streets or on the Maidan are called fascists and neo-Nazis, while under the “anti-fascists” in Crimea those holding the power hide from, bully and accost at gunpoint (with masks) anyone who wants to see the truth.

  10. 10.

    Mustang Bobby

    March 10, 2014 at 5:41 pm

    I have TiVo’d the last few episodes of True Detective and I plan to make a night of it.

    I’ll probably go into work tomorrow and greet everyone with “F-k you!”

  11. 11.

    Mnemosyne

    March 10, 2014 at 5:41 pm

    The time change always annoys me. I’ve been cranky all day because I didn’t get enough sleep, my brain is convinced that it’s an hour earlier than it is, and Charlotte decided to bring her favorite toy onto the bed around 5:00 am and start batting it around. Plus I’ve been chilly all damn day even though it’s 80 degrees out.

  12. 12.

    Amir Khalid

    March 10, 2014 at 5:41 pm

    MH370:
    None of yesterday’s leads have checked out. Not even the merest speck of MH370 debris has been found. The 20km long oil slick in the South China Sea, at first thought to be jet fuel from MH370, turned out to be fuel oil from a ship. The Vietnamese air force can’t find the “airplane door” it thinks it saw in the water last night, and the “yellow life raft” turned out to be a cable reel.

    The US Navy is assisting in the multinational S&R effort: the destroyer USS Pinckney and one other ship are in the area. NTSB has sent an investigative team to KL, FBI might send one too.

    Chinese media are mad at MAS and Malaysian authorities for sitting on the facts, but there’s really not a lot of facts to give out. The stuff about the two (or maybe more) passengers travelling on stolen passports highlights a booming trade in stolen/forged travel papers out of south-east Asia; but as far as MH370 goes, it could well turn out to be incidental.

  13. 13.

    elmo

    March 10, 2014 at 5:42 pm

    Tiger Beat on the Potomac, indeed!

  14. 14.

    Mnemosyne

    March 10, 2014 at 5:43 pm

    @Mustang Bobby:

    As long as you don’t expect every thread of the mystery to be wrapped up, I think you’ll like the ending. And that’s all I’ll say.

  15. 15.

    WaterGirl

    March 10, 2014 at 5:44 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Waiting is beyond hard.

  16. 16.

    Mustang Bobby

    March 10, 2014 at 5:45 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Good, because I gave up on Under the Dome last summer when I realized they weren’t going to wrap it in one season and it began to suck out loud.

  17. 17.

    MikeJ

    March 10, 2014 at 5:47 pm

    @Linda Featheringill:

    At one point in her life, my daughter wore long, filmy skirts with combat boots.

    That was kind of a thing in the 90s.

  18. 18.

    Amir Khalid

    March 10, 2014 at 5:47 pm

    I have no reason to care if Obama is wearing pants. And if he has mislaid any condiments from the White House kitchen, I don’t want hear about that either.

  19. 19.

    Cervantes

    March 10, 2014 at 5:49 pm

    @Baud: Never mind Ukraine, I agree with you that omitting this “the” is silly — particularly because it seems Assange did not omit it.

  20. 20.

    WereBear

    March 10, 2014 at 5:49 pm

    @Mustang Bobby: It sucked so loud you could hear it outside the dome!

    No one wants to work entirely without pants because that’s a leather chair in the Oval Office, isn’t it?

  21. 21.

    Ash Can

    March 10, 2014 at 5:50 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Don’t forget the reports of Crimean Tatars getting X’s painted on their houses and getting their passports taken away so that they can’t vote in the referendum, among other things. Good times.

    But hey, Putin is strong and manly and dreamy, and Russia is a bastion of human rights.

  22. 22.

    MattF

    March 10, 2014 at 5:50 pm

    Obama is the Sharon Stone of American politics.

  23. 23.

    ruemara

    March 10, 2014 at 5:50 pm

    Ugh. WTF who cares what Assange thinks? I also love that his laser like focus on freedom. Jeez, what an idiot.

  24. 24.

    Anton Sirius

    March 10, 2014 at 5:51 pm

    @kindness:

    As long as they aren’t Mom jeans.

    I’m fine with Obama wearing mom jeans, given that most of his opponents seem to end up wearing these.

  25. 25.

    Amir Khalid

    March 10, 2014 at 5:54 pm

    @WaterGirl:
    No one can say for sure if those 239 people are dead or alive. So after three days there’s not even a definitive fact of death to deal with. It can’t help that the nutters are starting to float crazy, X-Files style theories.

  26. 26.

    Roger Moore

    March 10, 2014 at 5:54 pm

    The Politico headline writer has been speaking Russian so much he’s forgotten how to use the definite article.

  27. 27.

    Highway Rob

    March 10, 2014 at 5:54 pm

    @Botsplainer: Channeling Diamond Joe Biden, are we?

  28. 28.

    Cervantes

    March 10, 2014 at 5:55 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    Not even the merest speck of MH370 debris has been found.

    Surprising?

    The stuff about the two (or maybe more) passengers travelling on stolen passports highlights a booming trade in stolen/forged travel papers out of south-east Asia.

    A good thing to have highlighted.

    Thanks for your MH370 updates. They’re so concise and thorough one might even think you were trained for it.

  29. 29.

    Baud

    March 10, 2014 at 5:55 pm

    To be fair, you can only spy on the Internet for so long before not wearing pants starts to seem normal.

  30. 30.

    NotMax

    March 10, 2014 at 5:56 pm

    Sometimes feel as if am the only one who can’t make head nor tail out of the gibberish infesting the tweets so often highlighted.

  31. 31.

    Mnemosyne

    March 10, 2014 at 5:58 pm

    @NotMax:

    That’s kind of the point with this particular one, though — taking “the” out of Assange’s statement leads to a very strange picture of the president wandering around the Oval Office without pants on that most of us didn’t want.

  32. 32.

    gogol's wife

    March 10, 2014 at 6:00 pm

    @NotMax:

    I never understand all the c–p in the middle of the tweet or who’s speaking or who they’re addressing. But I’m just waiting for it to all blow over.

  33. 33.

    Baud

    March 10, 2014 at 6:00 pm

    Ironically, if Assange had kept his pants on, he wouldn’t be in so much legal trouble.

  34. 34.

    NotMax

    March 10, 2014 at 6:03 pm

    @gogol’s wife

    Precisely.

    End result is ignoring them altogether.

  35. 35.

    Violet

    March 10, 2014 at 6:08 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I’m having a hard time with the time change too. Been kind of out of it all day. I can’t believe doing this twice a year actually saves anything in the era of always-on electronics.

  36. 36.

    schrodinger's cat

    March 10, 2014 at 6:10 pm

    I finally finished it, my review of Downton’s season finale. You can leave your thoughts about the season at the link if you like. Also too, has spoilers.

  37. 37.

    Amir Khalid

    March 10, 2014 at 6:11 pm

    @Cervantes:

    Surprising?

    Not really. When an Air France jet went down in the Atlantic five years ago, it took a couple of days to find the first few bits, and four big searches over the next two years to locate the main body of the wreck.

  38. 38.

    Suffern ACE

    March 10, 2014 at 6:13 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Yep. They certainly acting as if they would loose the vote if it weren’t being held under duress. The ballot alone shows that. It’s not simply a matter of leaving nothing to chance. They don’t want anyone choosing.

    I’m not certain where the relief is going to come in this situation. However, if I were one of the Baltics and Poland, I’d be alarmed right now that the membership in NATO might be worthless as long as Germany needs Russian Gas and the UK needs Russian bank deposits. David Cameron, so feisty when it came to Libya, would probably start talking about the need for a smaller NATO.

  39. 39.

    schrodinger's cat

    March 10, 2014 at 6:15 pm

    What is this stupid obsession with Obama’s pants? I am sure they would criticize him if he wore skinny jeans too, though he would totally look good in them since he is lean and tall.

  40. 40.

    Violet

    March 10, 2014 at 6:17 pm

    @Amir Khalid: It would be really crazy if the plane had been taken by terrorists and forced to land on some remote island or hidden airfield somewhere while some evil mastermind figured out how to capitalize on having all those hostages. I’m sure that’s not the case, but without an evidence to show what did happen, it’s easy to let the mind wander to James Bond type scenarios.

  41. 41.

    Roger Moore

    March 10, 2014 at 6:17 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    The stuff about the two (or maybe more) passengers travelling on stolen passports highlights a booming trade in stolen/forged travel papers out of south-east Asia; but as far as MH370 goes, it could well turn out to be incidental.

    They had an airline security guy on the news this morning who estimated that something like 20% of the flights from KL have people traveling on stolen passports. If that’s true, it’s quite likely to be a coincidence.

  42. 42.

    Origuy

    March 10, 2014 at 6:18 pm

    Scotland votes for independence this fall. If they vote for it, the American President would likely be invited to the secession ceremony. I don’t know the timetable, but if he’s still President, I think Obama should wear a kilt to the proceedings.

  43. 43.

    Calouste

    March 10, 2014 at 6:21 pm

    @Baud:

    Ironically, if Assange had kept his pants condoms on, he wouldn’t be in so much legal trouble.

    It wasn’t the sex with the women that got him in trouble, it was that he took off the protection during the act and didn’t tell his partners. In other words, he is a disrespectful asshole, which I guess explains some of his popularity with the libertarian crowd.

  44. 44.

    Violet

    March 10, 2014 at 6:21 pm

    @Amir Khalid: I heard on the radio today that it took six days to find the Air France crash, but that was in a much larger area that is less busy than the South China Sea.

    Also, some guy on the NPR program was talking about some algorithm or something for searching and how it can help find airplane wreckage faster. Didn’t quite catch what it was called. Was anyone else listening?

  45. 45.

    Amir Khalid

    March 10, 2014 at 6:22 pm

    @Violet:
    A runway you could land a 777 on would be kind of hard to keep a secret. Even if you got someone built like Mitt Romney to carry it around on his shoulders.

  46. 46.

    Roger Moore

    March 10, 2014 at 6:24 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    taking “the” out of Assange’s statement leads to a very strange picture of the president wandering around the Oval Office without pants on that most of us didn’t want.

    Speak for yourself. I’ve read plenty of people who are more than happy to think about the President with his pants off. And that’s without even considering all the vile Republican fantasies.

  47. 47.

    Cervantes

    March 10, 2014 at 6:26 pm

    @Calouste:

    it was that he took off the protection during the act and didn’t tell his partners.

    How do we know this to be true?

  48. 48.

    Violet

    March 10, 2014 at 6:26 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    What is this stupid obsession with Obama’s pants?

    I’m quite convinced it’s fear on the part of the white men going on about Obama’s pants. You know, of the “once you go black you never go back” variety and other rumors along those lines. They’re belittling his “pants” as a way to belittle the part of him they can’t speak of in public. They’re terrified of him and they make it obvious every time they speak.

  49. 49.

    WaterGirl

    March 10, 2014 at 6:27 pm

    @Roger Moore: Hey, here’s an idea, maybe they should check the stolen passport list!

  50. 50.

    JScott

    March 10, 2014 at 6:27 pm

    Pants are pants.

    If MH370 comes flying out of a time vortex the UFO hunters are going to be insufferable. And that’s as good a speculation as anything I have heard on the TV all day.

    Actually, that would be my preferred theory, because that would mean all those passengers are alive.

  51. 51.

    WaterGirl

    March 10, 2014 at 6:30 pm

    @Calouste: I had not heard or read that. If that’s true, he’s beyond disrespectful. I am trying, but without success, to find a description for him that doesn’t include several bad words.

  52. 52.

    ruemara

    March 10, 2014 at 6:35 pm

    @Origuy: I would fly to the ould homestead just to witness that in person.

  53. 53.

    Suffern ACE

    March 10, 2014 at 6:35 pm

    @JScott: A time vortex might be cool to have around. We could open an anti-aging spa and make a fortune convincing the 1% that they could stop the aging process if they’d just step inside.

  54. 54.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 10, 2014 at 6:45 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    This has to be devastating for family and friends of those aboard, but it also strikes me that it’s a national disaster for everyone in Malaysia. (I’m reminded of the Upper Big Branch coal mine explosion disaster in 2010. Cole’s opening line “My entire state is in mourning and in shock” haunts me to this day.)

    The mystery just depends. I hope they find some answers and hard evidence soon. All this negative evidence is frustrating beyond belief. I am heartbroken for everyone affected by this disaster, assuming it is a disaster and not a grand conspiratorial abduction, which I’m already hearing noises about.

    ETA: Thought I was responding to Amir, but he’ll see it anyhow, I imagine.

  55. 55.

    Gex

    March 10, 2014 at 6:45 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: this strikes me as being about “wearing the pants” in a relationship i.e. being in charge. It comes off like a sexist insult to me. Although it seems as though the Internet culture of pantslessness seems to be diluting that insult. Which is fine by me.

  56. 56.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    March 10, 2014 at 6:47 pm

    @Cervantes: I think Assange himself may have referred to his desire to populate places around the world by putting pinholes in condoms. He may have told that to the women in question after the sex. I can’t recall clearly and he already seemed creepy to me, so that allegation just enhanced the creepish vibe.

  57. 57.

    Ian

    March 10, 2014 at 6:48 pm

    @JScott:
    Also would prove that Aliens have a sense of humor, fucking with those Earthlings and not revealing themselves.

    What if the aliens were trolling us?

  58. 58.

    Roger Moore

    March 10, 2014 at 6:49 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    Hey, here’s an idea, maybe they should check the stolen passport list!

    Assumes they want to catch the people flying on stolen passports. Given that the main reason for doing so is supposed to be various forms of smuggling, I wouldn’t be surprised to find that somebody is being well compensated for failing to check the stolen passport list.

  59. 59.

    Mnemosyne

    March 10, 2014 at 6:50 pm

    @Gex:

    I think that’s what it’s supposed to be, too — it’s about “who’s wearing the pants” in the relationship, the man (correct party) or the woman (incorrect party).

    Though, as others have noted, a guy who’s wanted on sexual assault charges and fled to avoid extradition should probably not discuss anyone’s pants if he can avoid it.

  60. 60.

    PsiFighter37

    March 10, 2014 at 6:52 pm

    SXSW having Snowden and Assange speaking = methinks the festival’s shark-jumping a bit. I thought this was originally a music/film festival, and now it’s basically been appropriated by everyone under the living sun, including those two shitstains.

  61. 61.

    Hill Dweller

    March 10, 2014 at 6:54 pm

    Julian Assange and Politico? Bring on the f’n meteor.

  62. 62.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 10, 2014 at 6:55 pm

    @Origuy:

    Commandobama!!

  63. 63.

    Amir Khalid

    March 10, 2014 at 6:55 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    After the Tanjung Kupang crash in ’77 (hijacking-related, up to that point the worst air disaster in MAS’ and Malaysia’s history) that killed 100 people, the country was officially in mourning for a week. My neighbour, a MAS flight attendant flying off-duty, was aboard that one.

  64. 64.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 10, 2014 at 6:57 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    The mystery just depends. = The mystery just deepens.

    FYAC.

  65. 65.

    Roger Moore

    March 10, 2014 at 6:58 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    When it’s done in a kilt, it’s called going regimental, not going commando.

  66. 66.

    Corner Stone

    March 10, 2014 at 6:59 pm

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I had the impression you were a defense attorney?

  67. 67.

    Robert Sneddon

    March 10, 2014 at 7:00 pm

    @Amir Khalid: The AF447 situation was somewhat different. It went down in an extreme storm a long way from land and it didn’t stop transmitting its location until it hit the water. Finding the surface wreckage took a few days because of the weather and the distance the searchers had to work over and recovering the flight recorders took years because of the extreme depth of the water there, undersea canyons etc.

    As someone has pointed out if MH370 went into the sea vertically where it disappeared its tail would be sticking above the surface as that model of 777 is actually longer than the sea is deep at that point. The weather is not a factor and the area being examined is close to land, airstrips and harbours for searchers to use to launch operations from.

    I am wondering if there were any military exercises happening in the area — there was an accidental shootdown of a civilian airliner over the Black Sea a few years back when a ship test-fired a SAM and it locked onto a plane overflying the area. Something like that could well have destroyed the plane at altitude so abruptly and completely that the automatic transponders and beacons would not have survived. However there are SAR beacons on all the slide/liferafts on an airliner as well as in the airframe. The lack of any sort of detectable signal (SAR emergency beacons can be picked up by satellites) is really surprising.

  68. 68.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 10, 2014 at 7:00 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    I remember the crash. Didn’t know about the official mourning period. And I’m sorry about your neighbour, these 37 years later.

  69. 69.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 10, 2014 at 7:02 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    Yes, but it’s not as easy to make wordplay on Obama’a name with “regimental.”

  70. 70.

    WaterGirl

    March 10, 2014 at 7:03 pm

    @Roger Moore: Well, that’s a depressing thought, and likely correct, as well.

    I saw some comment in an article yesterday (maybe from interpol?) that mumble-mumble we should have been checking the passport list.

  71. 71.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 10, 2014 at 7:10 pm

    @Corner Stone: Creepy people need a defense too.

  72. 72.

    Violet

    March 10, 2014 at 7:10 pm

    @PsiFighter37:

    SXSW having Snowden and Assange speaking = methinks the festival’s shark-jumping a bit. I thought this was originally a music/film festival, and now it’s basically been appropriated by everyone under the living sun, including those two shitstains.

    Originally it was just a music festival. Then they added the film part in 1994. It’s kind of out of control now, although you can still see some cool bands. The really cool part is, the bands frequently want to make the trip worth their while so if you live in other places near Austin or even other cities in Texas you can often see some cool bands before or after SXSW.

    I agree it’s kind of Fonzi on the water skis at this point.

  73. 73.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    March 10, 2014 at 7:11 pm

    @Corner Stone: I have worked both tables in criminal court, and as a result, I kind of trust my creep sensor, though I don’t expect anyone else to do so. I’m pretty hard to creep out, and Assange trips the sensor. FWIW, so did John Edwards in 2004, which did not make me popular in my circles.

    ETA: @Omnes Omnibus: And also this, obviously.

  74. 74.

    Violet

    March 10, 2014 at 7:14 pm

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
    Interesting. I was creeped out by Edwards too. Way to slick and shiny. Not trustworthy.

    Tom DeLay has creeped me out for as long as I’ve known of him. I would not let any children near him. Does he trip your creep sensor?

  75. 75.

    Calouste

    March 10, 2014 at 7:18 pm

    @Cervantes:

    Ok, I have misremembered the exact circumstances. Here’s an article in the Guardian that has a lot of detailed, non-public information. The best that can be said for Mr. Assange from that article is that he was a less than enthusiastic and less than careful condom user, which is not great from someone who apparently has quite a bit of casual sex, and that he was rather aggressive in his approach to women. Also note the swipe of Assange’s lawyer at the end suggesting that the women got jealous because Assange was sleeping around, rather than got upset because they started to notice a pattern of condom malfunctions.

  76. 76.

    Amir Khalid

    March 10, 2014 at 7:20 pm

    @Robert Sneddon:
    An air force or navy conducting exercises in the area would most likely have been RMAF/RMN or the Vietnamese counterpart, obviously, but neither country has mentioned anything. An accidental/mistaken shootdown seems unlikely to me; if the area were being used for military exercises, civilian traffic would surely have been warned to stay away from it.

  77. 77.

    Corner Stone

    March 10, 2014 at 7:26 pm

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): He may very well be the creepiest creep that ever creeped out of a creephole.
    Those allegations are specious at best, at this point.

  78. 78.

    Corner Stone

    March 10, 2014 at 7:27 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Like Mumia, for example?

  79. 79.

    Omnes Omnibus

    March 10, 2014 at 7:32 pm

    @Corner Stone: Yeah. Even assuming Mumia is a creep. Or Matthew Hale, who I am pretty sure is a creep.

  80. 80.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    March 10, 2014 at 7:36 pm

    @Violet: DeLay has always seemed skeevy to me. In all fairness to Edwards, while I was put off by something, I didn’t feel real strongly about him until I was at an event with “the Johns” as the friend I went with called them. It was like tripping over a rock and gagging as soon as I looked at him live. I’d been at events where Kerry was so I was certain it was Edwards.

  81. 81.

    Corner Stone

    March 10, 2014 at 7:38 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: How could Mumia not be a creep?
    I’ve seen so many Democrats here be derisive of people and arguments with the simple invocation of, “Free Mumia!”.
    Clearly, creep.

  82. 82.

    stinger

    March 10, 2014 at 7:43 pm

    @gogol’s wife: Same here.

  83. 83.

    Booger

    March 10, 2014 at 8:00 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Pretty sure the tail section broke off in one place, the main fuselage in another, and they both landed on opposite sides of this island. Also, the plane was generally full of only photogenic people.

  84. 84.

    El Caganer

    March 10, 2014 at 8:27 pm

    Barack Obama isn’t in control of the nation’s intelligence operation? And this makes him different from his predecessors of the last 70 years….how, exactly?

  85. 85.

    Cervantes

    March 10, 2014 at 9:04 pm

    @Calouste:

    Ok, I have misremembered the exact circumstances.

    Yes, that “pinhole” thing in particular.

    Anyhow, we move on:

    Here’s an article in the Guardian that has a lot of detailed, non-public information. The best that can be said for Mr. Assange from that article is that [1] he was a less than enthusiastic and less than careful condom user, which is not great from someone who apparently has quite a bit of casual sex, and that [2] he was rather aggressive in his approach to women. Also note the swipe of Assange’s lawyer at the end [3] suggesting that the women got jealous because Assange was sleeping around, rather than got upset because they started to notice a pattern of condom malfunctions.

    [3] I have no comment on his lawyer’s behavior. I don’t know the facts of that case (as you can see).

    [1] I don’t see that anything can (or should) be done about this. He has a girlfriend or some such. She seems to be with him of her own accord. Is she a victim of his whose support for him should be discounted? Or am I wrong about her existence?

    [2] This involves a red line, obviously, that should not be crossed. I have not followed the case or the personalities, etc. Did those women in Sweden consent to anything? To nothing?

    (Thanks.)

  86. 86.

    Raven on the Hill

    March 10, 2014 at 10:01 pm

    @Cervantes: “Did those women in Sweden consent to anything? To nothing?”

    No-one seems actually know, at least no-one credible writing in English. I’ve heard that the women have since withdrawn their accusations, but I am not even sure of that. What is clear, though, is that the Swedish authorities want Assange in Sweden where he could be extradited to the USA.

    Seriously, does anyone reading believe that Assange would not be extradited to the USA, if he returned to Sweden to face prosecution?

    What I wrote at the time, I think, stands up pretty well:

    I have little doubt that this has been turned into a public matter because Assange has embarrassed powerful people–people whose own lives and affairs do not bear close scrutiny. Whatever Assange and his sexual partners did, they did. It is for them and the courts to deal with, not a planet-full of busybodies.

    The published stories change day by day. I wonder if even Assange and his partners know what happened any more: memory is sometimes malleable, and never moreso when a story is told over and over, in many different versions. Another account, from Reuters.

    Much of the discussion I have seen says more about the participants than about Assange. To those excusing rape: “no” means “no” and “stop” means “stop.” To those who want to pursue assassination: that’s illegal, and for good reason.

    I am beyond disgusted with this whole thing. We can discuss JFK’s politics without always discussing his appalling sexism. I think we can do the same with Assange. Assange poses a very good question. The NSA is under the authority of the executive branch. Why has Obama not acted to limit its abuses? Is it because he cannot?

  87. 87.

    GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)

    March 10, 2014 at 10:09 pm

    I fucking woke up yesterday at 0330 (by the wall clock) and didn’t feel sleepy. By the time 0430 rolled around, I realized it was actually 0530, so I just got up and went running (on the treadmill, because it had been in for less than a week, and could not. Leave at the itme.)

    I have privileges now. Wife and I had lunch, and went to Home Depot to. Order the other half of our kitchen, which should arrive just as I graduate from residential treatment. The whole kitchen remodel will come in at just under $10k. It’s needed to be done since we moved in 13 years ago.

  88. 88.

    GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)

    March 10, 2014 at 10:10 pm

    @Raven on the Hill:

    why has he not acted to limit it’s abuses?

    Pay attention.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/18/us/politics/obama-nsa.html?_r=0

  89. 89.

    WaterGirl

    March 10, 2014 at 10:25 pm

    @GHayduke (formerly lojasmo): So what’s your take on things now that you’ve been there a week?

  90. 90.

    Bob In Portland

    March 10, 2014 at 10:36 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Some of them were fascists. You of all people should know the history.

  91. 91.

    Bob In Portland

    March 10, 2014 at 10:38 pm

    @El Caganer: Thank you.

  92. 92.

    Mnemosyne

    March 10, 2014 at 11:10 pm

    @GHayduke (formerly lojasmo):

    As I understand it, annoying but totally normal part of the detox and recovery process. One day at a time, and all that rot.

  93. 93.

    Joey Giraud

    March 10, 2014 at 11:10 pm

    @Raven on the Hill:

    First comment here about the real shocker: America’s intelligence apparatus is not under civilian control.

    Gotta love how folk here go right for the Assange smears. I guess hating on Assange helps them to not think about the really difficult problems.

  94. 94.

    LAC

    March 10, 2014 at 11:16 pm

    @ruemara: and considering that his focus should be making sure he wears pants the next time housekeeping comes by to clean his hotel room.

    Asshole…

  95. 95.

    Joey Giraud

    March 10, 2014 at 11:18 pm

    @LAC:

    Did that feel good?

    Calling a bad guy “asshole” is almost orgasmic, eh?

  96. 96.

    Cain

    March 10, 2014 at 11:46 pm

    @Hill Dweller:
    I saw politico at SXSW. I was going to punch him in the face and yell “John G. Cole sent me! That’s from his dog!”

  97. 97.

    LAC

    March 10, 2014 at 11:48 pm

    @Joey Giraud: not as big an orgasm as you are having getting your panties in a bunch about this opportunist. For the record, you can appreciate the “difficult problems” and not be a fan of this asshole

  98. 98.

    Cervantes

    March 10, 2014 at 11:54 pm

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):

    I think Assange himself may have referred to his desire to populate places around the world by putting pinholes in condoms. He may have told that to the women in question after the sex. I can’t recall clearly and he already seemed creepy to me, so that allegation just enhanced the creepish vibe.

    Thanks for the response but — do you see the problem here?

  99. 99.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 12:06 am

    @LAC:

    Oh I dare say you’re the one with the anger management issue.

    My only emotion is disappointment and mild amusement at how easy it is to get people like yourself to hate based on only some weak smears and media framing.

  100. 100.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 12:10 am

    @Cervantes:

    Allegations are all they need. People just love to get themselves some self-righteous hatred going, it’s almost as good as sex.

    Ask LAC. He/she is still enjoying their post-“asshole!” cigarette.

  101. 101.

    LAC

    March 11, 2014 at 12:21 am

    @Joey Giraud: please spare me the patented Corner stone attempt to save face when you realize I could give a shit about your opinion. No one asked you to comment on what I said nor I care that you adore Assange and want to have his babies. People don’t always agree – don’t be such a fucking twat about it.

  102. 102.

    Violet

    March 11, 2014 at 12:23 am

    @Joey Giraud: Do you know Assange personally? Do you know he’s not an asshole?

  103. 103.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 12:30 am

    @LAC:
    Oh fuck you. I’ll say what I like whether you like it or not.

    Did you enjoy your “asshole!” exclamation? Did it please you?

    @Violet:
    No one here has personal experience with the man himself. I suggest it would be wiser to avoid believing third parties about it, especially third parties with agendas.

  104. 104.

    Violet

    March 11, 2014 at 12:37 am

    @Joey Giraud: I’ve seen videos of him speaking, interviews, that kind of thing. He comes across like an asshole to me. I’m not commenting on any of the allegations and so forth because I haven’t followed any of that much at all except I’m aware he’s holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy in London–or has he left that? He just seems like he’s a self-absorbed asshole to me. He may also be brilliant and have done important things. People have different facets and someone can do important things and be a jerk. Steve Jobs comes to mind, at least from what I remember hearing about him. I don’t know if what Assange has done is in that category but to me he comes across like he’s kind of a jerk.

  105. 105.

    LAC

    March 11, 2014 at 12:38 am

    @Joey Giraud: go sober up, you silly bitch.

  106. 106.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 12:41 am

    Self-considered “smarter and more knowledgeable” Americans, like many here on Balloon-Juice, would be smarter if they would remember the elementary school game of “telephone,” which was supposed to teach us to be skeptical of hearsay.

    Much less learn a bit about the standard procedure of smearing whistleblowers and other gadflys, usually with allegations of a sexual nature.

    I have no respect for those who fall for this trick, and less then zero respect for those who indulge themselves with the self-righteous pleasure of accusatory ejaculations like LACs “asshole!”

  107. 107.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 12:42 am

    @LAC:

    Unlike many of you sots here, I don’t drink.

    But I do enjoy insulting people I have no respect for, and that would mean you.

  108. 108.

    LAC

    March 11, 2014 at 12:51 am

    @Joey Giraud: feeling is mutual. Drunk (highly likely) or sober, you are an asshole. And your opinions, much like your dick, don’t penetrate much. So I am off to bed. Be sure to get the last word like a good asshole. Assange would be proud. Nighty night,,,

  109. 109.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 12:57 am

    @LAC:

    You too, you butch asshole, or whatever would offend you most. Sweet dreams.

  110. 110.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 1:00 am

    opportunist?

    geez.

  111. 111.

    mclaren

    March 11, 2014 at 2:36 am

    All I can say is, wearing pants is better than a double wetsuit.

  112. 112.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    March 11, 2014 at 8:13 am

    So in the middle of the Crimea Crises Assange starts questioning Obama’s masculinity,
    ’cause he loves freedom and all that.

  113. 113.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2014 at 8:40 am

    @Raven on the Hill: Thanks for your response.

    @Cervantes: “Did those women in Sweden consent to anything? To nothing?”

    No-one seems actually know, at least no-one credible writing in English.

    I do know that one Swedish prosecutor who looked at the case early on found less to prosecute than she had expected to find. Another prosecutor, also female, then reinstated some of the charges.

    Seriously, does anyone reading believe that Assange would not be extradited to the USA, if he returned to Sweden to face prosecution?

    That seems to fit the evidence. On the other hand, I recall DOJ saying that, at least on some of the charges that were being discussed, Assange cannot be prosecuted alone — that the argument would require NYT and WP journalists to be prosecuted as well — the implication being that this is a non-starter. I have not seen any detailed legal analysis from the DOJ (if such analysis exists) — to be fair, I might have missed it — nor have I seen an iron-clad commitment not to prosecute Assange (on any charge).

    What I wrote at the time, I think, stands up pretty well:

    Yes, thanks.

    I am beyond disgusted with this whole thing. We can discuss JFK’s politics without always discussing his appalling sexism. I think we can do the same with Assange.

    For that matter, whenever people discuss Ronald Reagan, I do not see them viewing him through the lens of Selene Walters — the woman who said he raped her on her couch. (When the incident was described by a gossip columnist as “date rape,” Walters responded that there was no date before the rape.)

    Assange poses a very good question. The NSA is under the authority of the executive branch. Why has Obama not acted to limit its abuses? Is it because he cannot?

    If there is an instance where Obama (or any US president) is really not in charge of [*] the relationship, that may be it.

    But this is a longer discussion, not usefully pursued here right now.

    [*] Using “wearing the pants” as a way to describe a power imbalance strikes me as a bad idea. Historically it may be accurate; but that’s a history I don’t care to see perpetuated, not even in casual language, not even when lots of women wear pants these days (literally and otherwise).

  114. 114.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 9:41 am

    @Violet:

    People who do big things usually have a high opinion of themselves and aren’t necessarily easy company or nice or fun. ( case: Obama != a regular nice guy )

    So what? All our heros are assholes. When I’m feeling good and tough I can be an asshole.

    Plenty of commenters here are first rate assholes.

    Julian Assange is doing things that need to be done.

  115. 115.

    LAC

    March 11, 2014 at 9:45 am

    @Joey Giraud: butch? Geez. Women disagree with you and they are what, lesbians? You keep explaining yourself to violet, you are still an asshole. And you are only tough on a board, Bruce Willis.

  116. 116.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 10:42 am

    @LAC:

    Apparently the “butch” one worked. Good.

    You being pissed off and miserable is the goal.

    Now shut up, I’m having a nice conversation with an adult.

  117. 117.

    Violet

    March 11, 2014 at 11:08 am

    @Joey Giraud: So if LAC called Assange an asshole, and you say that Assange is doing big things and people who do big things are frequently not nice people, and “all our heroes are assholes”, doesn’t that make LAC’s assessment that Assange is an asshole correct?

    Not sure why it’s an issue for you that someone called Assange an asshole.

  118. 118.

    LAC

    March 11, 2014 at 11:10 am

    @Joey Giraud: and he is having a conversation with an asshat. Poor person I hope that he knows that he is doing charity work. Btw, you don’t get to me. You are not man enough. You are a silly insecure boy who hates that your bullying shit doesn’t play. Btw, that “adult” you are talking to should up your meds.

  119. 119.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 11:32 am

    @Violet:

    Tedious talk warning;

    You know, or should know, that Assange is publicizing things our Establishment doesn’t want publicized. And that smearing such gadflys with sexual accusations is standard operating procedure. People buying and repeating these smears is important, because the “everybody is saying” effect is strong in the weak-minded.

    LAC is moving the project of smearing Assange forward, with his/her knee-jerk “asshole!” -gasm. The pleasure that this pronouncement gives him/her really isn’t my beef, just a way to shame and belittle pinheaded behavior. It didn’t have to be LAC, her/him is just one of many to fall for the smears.

    Assange’s actual factual personality is about as relevant as the number of pimples on LAC’s ass, which is to say not at all. The news Assange is peddling is pretty damn important if you care about American civil society.

    Oh, and smears work because people who have judged someone morally repugnant will distance themselves from anything associated with that shunned individual, including important national issues.

    Tedious I know. I warned you :)

  120. 120.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 11:42 am

    And the morally repugnant part is essential too. Smears don’t work as well if they just cast the individual as rude or pushy or dishonest or demanding or not-nice. Most of us actually respect that kind of thing to an extent ( except LAC it seems, so needy for niceness is he/she )

    No, it has to be something most everyone finds truly horrible, like rape or child molestation ( see Scott Ritter ) or something that.. “sick” sex always works.

  121. 121.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 11:55 am

    So the story seems to be: Assange is living an exciting and public life, doing risky things that piss off powerful people, and he’s got a cocky air to him and has groupies as most all famous men do, so on at least one occasion in Sexy Sweden, he has sex with a groupie or two, who may or may not be jealous of each other.

    To cut to the chase, one or two of the girls were pressured by someone, either a zealous prosecutor or who knows? into making allegations, which gave the prosecutor reason to get Assange in for questioning, which he did, and then he left Sweden.

    The girls drop out of the picture and no longer accuse, the prosecutor wants Assange to return to Sweden for more questioning that apparently simply must be done in Sweden for some unstated reason, and Assange is suspicious and you know the rest.

    Oh, and lot’s of mouthpieces write and talk a lot about what a slimy, greasy, horrible snake Julian Assange is… and those brain worms infest weak minds, like LAC’s.
    Then the monkey-chatter of the LACs of the world reinforce that prejudice in more normal people.

    FWIW, I think the evolutionary anthropological origin is shaming and shunning.

    As close to the classic smear campaign as any.

  122. 122.

    LAC

    March 11, 2014 at 12:21 pm

    @Joey Giraud: god, you are tedious. Thanks for the warning. Shorter you: “Just like me, Julian Asange is a misogynist with an inflated sense of importance and a love of cut and paste”

    All that and you still didn’t address violet’s point.

  123. 123.

    Violet

    March 11, 2014 at 12:41 pm

    @Joey Giraud:

    So the story seems to be:

    What follows is definitely your version of it. Others may have different interpretations of events.

    Assange is living an exciting and public life, doing risky things that piss off powerful people, and he’s got a cocky air to him and has groupies as most all famous men do, so on at least one occasion in Sexy Sweden, he has sex with a groupie or two, who may or may not be jealous of each other.

    Any man or woman in a position of power or importance should know better than to sleep with groupies. The powerful have a lot to lose, the groupies have a lot to gain. Not sleeping with groupies is a price a smart powerful person pays for being powerful. Otherwise they may end up paying in other ways. Assange may be smart, but sleeping with groupies was a dumb mistake.

  124. 124.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 12:44 pm

    @LAC:

    And you’re blinded by self-righteousness.

    “Misogynist.” So you’re a woman. Yawn.

    Violet can judge for herself whether her point was addressed, no need for more of your judgments.

  125. 125.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 12:54 pm

    @Violet:

    I suppose you’re right that it would have been smarter for Assange to not sleep with groupies.

    Good advice for Jerry Garcia too :)

    I’ve actually been in a band popular enough for me to experience, in a very small scale, the groupie phenomenon. I guess I saw them for the unreliable and emotionally unstable people they were, rather then an easy conquest. But I didn’t have the money or mobility of a real rock star to rescue me from risky choices gone bad, so I chose to avoid them.

    You’re right. Assange made a dumb mistake. I insist on knowing a woman is sane and stable before contemplating sex. ( sorry LAC, that puts you right out. )

    But it wasn’t wrong to have sex with groupies. It isn’t evil or horrible. And I tell ya, if he hadn’t had that sex it wouldn’t have mattered, a smear would have been constructed anyway. Really, look into how Scott Ritter was smeared.

    And then forget about Assange’s likability or his sex life. Just read the news about the revelations and ignore the distractions.

  126. 126.

    LAC

    March 11, 2014 at 12:59 pm

    @Joey Giraud: well, you didn’t because she has responded, Keith Richards. Popular band…that was genuinely funny. Thank you.

    On a serious note, you are going the route of calling them insecure unstable women? Really ?

  127. 127.

    Violet

    March 11, 2014 at 1:34 pm

    @Joey Giraud:

    But it wasn’t wrong to have sex with groupies. It isn’t evil or horrible.

    No one said it was. Like most things, it’s a choice. It can be a choice with lasting consequences and the more important or powerful you become, the more you have to lose. He made a dumb choice.

    And I tell ya, if he hadn’t had that sex it wouldn’t have mattered, a smear would have been constructed anyway.

    That’s speculation and something we cannot know for sure. You could be right. You might not be right.

  128. 128.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2014 at 1:39 pm

    @Violet:

    Assange may be smart, but sleeping with groupies was a dumb mistake.

    I don’t know if they were “groupies” but here’s something related:

    I asked [journalist, WikiLeaks editor, and Assange’s current girlfriend Sarah Harrison] about the sex allegations. I said that in all my time with him he hadn’t really clarified what happened. ‘It was weird,’ she said. ‘Like, why was he even staying with those girls? He didn’t rape them but he was really fucking stupid.’

    That’s novelist and Esquire editor Andrew O’Hagan, who was to ghost-write a book for Assange.

    Let’s stipulate that what Assange did with those women was a stupid thing for him to do.

    Now what?

  129. 129.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 1:44 pm

    @Violet:

    Fair enough.

    No one said it was.

    Well, *you* never said that, at any rate.

    That’s speculation and something we cannot know for sure.

    Of course, all expectation of things that haven’t actually happened are speculative.

    And technically it is speculation to say that the sun will rise tomorrow.

  130. 130.

    Violet

    March 11, 2014 at 1:58 pm

    @Cervantes: Now what? At this point he’s dealing with the consequences of his bad decision. It’s not where he wants to be, for sure. But that’s the situation he’s in.

    @Joey Giraud: Of course. All we have is now and we cannot know the future. Sure, the earth could blow up or the sun could explode and then there would be no earth or sun and no sunrise. However, short of that sort of highly unusual and unexpected event, the sun will rise tomorrow.

    Your prediction that a smear would have been constructed is not in that same league of knowledge and predictability. You are predicting human behavior, which is quite different from predicting the occurrence of a regular and dependable event.

  131. 131.

    LAC

    March 11, 2014 at 2:14 pm

    @Cervantes: now what? Quit hiding out and get your name cleared or face the music. That’s what. Hiding in an embassy, while your fanboys swirl up conspiracies about how, despite international law, this is some plot to get him within flogging distance of the US and make derogatory comments about the two accusers on the World Wide Web is not the way to do this. It is cowardly and disingenuous. Not to mention grifting. – if all you are doing is collecting funds on it.

  132. 132.

    Joey Giraud

    March 11, 2014 at 2:22 pm

    @Violet:

    Excellent! A scientific frame.

    Of course you’re right; my opinion of the certainty of some kind of concocted smear on someone of Assange’s level of fame and annoyance to the powerful, oh 70-80%. Whereas the sun rising on any given day would definitely be in the 1 – 10^(-11) range, or something like that.

  133. 133.

    Violet

    March 11, 2014 at 2:28 pm

    @Joey Giraud:

    my opinion of the certainty of some kind of concocted smear on someone of Assange’s level of fame and annoyance to the powerful, oh 70-80%.

    Highlighted that this is your opinion. Others will no doubt have other opinions. Say, 50% or 10-15% or 95%. Doesn’t matter what you think the percentage chance is though, because Assange is where he is, dealing with the consequences of his poor choice.

  134. 134.

    Bob In Portland

    March 11, 2014 at 2:54 pm

    @Cervantes: Much of JFK’s sexism was invented after his death, in the 70s. Excellent essay by Jim DiEugenio on it. Track it down. It’s in The Assassinations.

  135. 135.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2014 at 7:08 pm

    Having stipulated that Assange did something stupid when he got himself mixed up with those two women in Sweden, I asked “Now what?” Here are the two answers I got (in their entirety):

    #1: @Violet:

    Now what? At this point he’s dealing with the consequences of his bad decision. It’s not where he wants to be, for sure. But that’s the situation he’s in.

    And #2: @LAC:

    now what? Quit hiding out and get your name cleared or face the music. That’s what. Hiding in an embassy, while your fanboys swirl up conspiracies about how, despite international law, this is some plot to get him within flogging distance of the US and make derogatory comments about the two accusers on the World Wide Web is not the way to do this. It is cowardly and disingenuous. Not to mention grifting. – if all you are doing is collecting funds on it.

    To no one’s surprise, both responses above avoid the following (call it Response R): “OK, now that we’ve agreed that on the personal front Assange did some stupid things, we can leave that to prosecutors, courts, and him — and turn our attention instead to the questionable behavior of institutions, behavior brought to light by WikiLeaks.”

    I see no reason to characterize or counter Responses #1 and #2. Instead, here’s what interests me: What does it take to reach Response R? Or are there people who, for whatever reason, never reach it? Of course, I’m happy to concede that some people find nothing questionable (never mind bad) in the institutional behavior brought to light by WikiLeaks. Is that what’s going on here?

  136. 136.

    Violet

    March 11, 2014 at 11:36 pm

    @Cervantes:

    the questionable behavior of institutions, behavior brought to light by WikiLeaks.”

    This statement is vague. To which specific questionable behavior are you referring? Various types of questionable behavior will need to be dealt with in different ways. Specific examples of lawbreaking can result in lawsuits. By whom and against whom I don’t know–but that’s how lawbreaking is usually handled Legal but immoral behavior is a different issue. That requires changes in laws so that subsequent behavior will be against the law. Different countries have different ways of changing laws, so that would be specific to the country.

  137. 137.

    LAC

    March 12, 2014 at 9:11 am

    @Violet: I agree snd I would add this:

    1. I am rather offended by the notion that my discomfort about Assange’s alleged misconduct and his handling of it is likened to my being comfortable with wrongdoing by a government.

    2. Second, wiki leaks indiscriminate practice of leaking is not a model of responsible journalism. Even Assange himself (rather flippantly ) has said that there could be blood on wiki leaks hands. I do not know why the ends justify the means argument is always employed by his defenders with regards to him and his site. Is there no balance to this discussion? And are we accept the PR machine that wiki leaks has accomplished positive things? I think the jury is still out on that.

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