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You are here: Home / Economics / C.R.E.A.M. / Friday Evening Open Thread: Bill Gates, Techno-Centrist

Friday Evening Open Thread: Bill Gates, Techno-Centrist

by Anne Laurie|  March 14, 20147:58 pm| 152 Comments

This post is in: C.R.E.A.M., Open Threads, Our Awesome Meritocracy

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Gawker‘s Hamilton Nolan says the latest RS interview makes Bill Gates look like “kind of a dick”:

Jeff Goodel’s lengthy new Rolling Stone interview with Gates delves deep into Gates’ greatest accomplishment: his $36billion foundation, and its meaningful, data-driven contributions to public health and anti-poverty initiatives. But it also does a good job proving that— although many people reflexively assume that someone so concerned about helping the poor must be a progressive liberal—Gates is anything but….

[Gates]: Should the state be playing a greater role in helping people at the lowest end of the income scale? Poverty today looks very different than poverty in the past. The real thing you want to look at is consumption and use that as a metric and say, “Have you been worried about having enough to eat? Do you have enough warmth, shelter? Do you think of yourself as having a place to go?” The poor are better off than they were before, even though they’re still in the bottom group in terms of income.

He goes on to criticize the lack of efficiency in government programs for the poor. Moderately liberal? Yes. But he is no George Soros. He’s not even as far left as Warren Buffett, when you get right down to it. A $36 billion foundation and a call for a 50% tax rate is admirable, in isolation. The same things are somewhat less admirable in the context of a $76 billion fortune.

Gates’ gods are not political, but technical. He worships efficiency and measurability, not ideals. And he evinces the sunny optimism (about technology’s ability to fix climate change without serious political changes, and about the inevitability of collective human progress in general) of a man free of personal worries. To Gates, the government is just another stakeholder instrumental to his plans, not an overarching force in life that must be held in check by an empowered citizenry.

A kindhearted technocrat with more means than ideals is not, of course, the worst thing the world’s richest man could be. It’s also not the best.

Discuss. Or, if you don’t care, share: What’s on the agenda for the start of the weekend?

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Reader Interactions

152Comments

  1. 1.

    schrodinger's cat

    March 14, 2014 at 8:03 pm

    Going for a run when the temperature hits 50 tomorrow. Sunset, from this Wednesday’s walk.

    ETA: As for Bill Gates, I am kind of meh about him, I think he is neither an angel nor a devil.

  2. 2.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 8:03 pm

    Since it is an open thread, I’ll share what I just realized: This is the 21st anniversary of the day of my first (actually my only) heart attack, which coincides (not by coincidence) with the day I smoked my last cigarette ever.

    By genuine coincidence of date, it is also the 13th anniversary of my quadruple bypass surgery, which presumably was in the interests of my not having a second heart attack.

    I am celebrating with red wine and dark chocolate. So far, so good.

  3. 3.

    raven

    March 14, 2014 at 8:04 pm

    Despite a heartbreaking loss for the Illini it’s still March! I remember when I first encountered BJ and it was hoop wall-to-wall. Then the Ears started to suck and slowly it died.

  4. 4.

    BGinCHI

    March 14, 2014 at 8:04 pm

    I find some comfort in the fact that if Gates and MS ever went far right and built a system designed to oppress people or turn them into food, it would only work for about an hour and then crash irretrievably.

  5. 5.

    The Ancient Randonneur

    March 14, 2014 at 8:04 pm

    Hey Steve, if you ever get tired of hanging out with Cole I found a job for you.

  6. 6.

    A Ghost To Most

    March 14, 2014 at 8:05 pm

    Compared to who Bill Gates was 30 years ago, he is a much better man. Melissa changed him.

  7. 7.

    Alison

    March 14, 2014 at 8:05 pm

    I guess it’s not OT since this is an OT: wanted to plug something with which I am entirely unaffiliated but totally supportive – a documentary film called The Last Clinic, about the abortion rights battle in Mississippi. I would really love to see this film get made. Their fundraiser is ending tonight and they’re only a little over halfway to their goal. They’ll get whatever funds they do raise, but obviously the more the better. If you can spare a few bucks, please consider donating, and perhaps also signal boosting it in friendly circles? http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-last-clinic

  8. 8.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 8:10 pm

    As for the rest of the weekend: opera tomorrow (Massenet’s Werther), and a wide-open Sunday AFAIK right now.

    Re: opera — the theatre I generally attend has had a few music specialists coming in 30 minutes in advance of curtain to talk about the day’s performance. Last time, they asked if anyone would like to take over the role of “Met HD Ambassador,” who coordinates expert speakers. I put my hand up — as did, apparently, another woman — so we will be co-Ambassadors during the 2014-15 season. I’m meeting her tomorrow, after the performance, along with some of the expert speakers and the retiring Ambassador. Seems like one of those right-up-my-alley things.

  9. 9.

    Suffern ACE

    March 14, 2014 at 8:18 pm

    I’ve got the flu, and I am seriously thinking of checking myself into the morgue to get it over with. My joints are so stiff, I think it’s rigor mortis.

  10. 10.

    PurpleGirl

    March 14, 2014 at 8:19 pm

    @The Ancient Randonneur: I saw a teevee ad with a cat sitting and riding a Romba… I like that idea.

  11. 11.

    ruemara

    March 14, 2014 at 8:19 pm

    Prepped my fillings for corned beef and cabbage stuffed bread rolls, the recipe for boozy donuts is on the fridge, the bottle of carolan’s irish cream is awaiting being turned into glaze and the new NAS is humming away, nice and fast. I feel so pleased with myself, I think I shall go do a bit of a jog and some HIIT training to celebrate. Then a nice pan fried tuna steak and the leftover cabbage and onions. There’s way too much stuffing, considering there’s a cheese sauce to fit in there. I’ma have to make two. plus, COMIC CON! WOOOO! Very unusually ebullient today. Must be the pollen count.

  12. 12.

    JustRuss

    March 14, 2014 at 8:20 pm

    @A Ghost To Most:

    Melissa changed him.

    That’s Melinda. Gates has always been something of a jekyll/hyde. His business practices were ruthless enough to land him anti-trust court, but he could also be a nice guy. I knew a young programming prodigy whose software was being ripped off, in desperation his mother called Microsoft to ask if they had anyone who could give him some pointers about protecting his work. 10 minutes later Bill Gates called her.

    I’m not Gates’ biggest fan, but I give him credit for trying to do some good in the world.

  13. 13.

    rk

    March 14, 2014 at 8:20 pm

    I went to the pharmacy yesterday and as I was waiting for my prescription, an older man started complaining loudly that his medication was not covered. “This is all due to Obamacare, they’ve stopped covering medications”
    The harassed pharmacist goes, sir this is Medicare, it has nothing to do with Obamacare”.
    Old man: ” Well it’s Obamacare, I know what’s going on”. All the time looking around making sure everyone heard the rant.
    Pharmacist goes: ” I don’t have a position on Obamacare, but this is Medicare and medicare has never covered this drug”.
    He was not convinced and just continued complaining against Obamacare. At that point I picked up my prescription and left thinking that hate filled stupid old men will kill us all.

  14. 14.

    tBone

    March 14, 2014 at 8:20 pm

    Gates’ educational “reform” ideas are more than enough to move him squarely into the dick column, notwithstanding some of the incredible work his foundation is doing on other things like malaria.

  15. 15.

    PurpleGirl

    March 14, 2014 at 8:22 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Sounds good, wishing you enjoyment, pleasure, and good times with your co-Ambassador.

  16. 16.

    muddy

    March 14, 2014 at 8:22 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Lucky for us!

  17. 17.

    Roger Moore

    March 14, 2014 at 8:25 pm

    I have a busy weekend scheduled. Tomorrow, I take my cat to the vet, donate platelets, and go to a blood/platelet donor recognition event. Sunday is the Sierra Madre Wistaria Festival, where I go to see the world’s largest (by area) flowering plant.

  18. 18.

    PurpleGirl

    March 14, 2014 at 8:25 pm

    @JustRuss: Melinda Gates was responsible for BOB, the friendly interface for the home PC, circa 1985/86 or so.

  19. 19.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 14, 2014 at 8:25 pm

    @raven: I’m delighted at the reports that Phil Jackson may be returning to the Knickerbockers. I know, you probably look down your nose at pro hoops, but it’s been so long since Manhattan has fielded a professional basketball team that it’s almost like starting at D-I level.

  20. 20.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 8:26 pm

    @muddy:

    Thanks! Lucky for me.

    I’m celebrating with red wine and dark chocolate (“same thing we do every night, Pinky”).

  21. 21.

    Mustang Bobby

    March 14, 2014 at 8:26 pm

    My brother used to work for Bill Gates, as in a couple of office doors away from him. He said he could never really get a handle on him and suspects that whoever suggested he is high-functioning autistic may not be too far off the mark.

  22. 22.

    Roger Moore

    March 14, 2014 at 8:27 pm

    @PurpleGirl:

    Melinda Gates was responsible for BOB

    A sign that her continued employment at Microsoft was a result of blatant nepotism.

  23. 23.

    R-Jud

    March 14, 2014 at 8:27 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Keep that ticker ticking, Madame.

    Over here on the Island, we have had a week of sunny weather and 60-degree highs. Mr. Jud and I will be re-modeling the garden while the Bean sits on the sofa wrapped in blankets, barking, thanks to a wicked case of bronchitis.

    Also, while researching the history of a church I pass on my longer runs, I learned that the hedge running down the road by my house dates back to at least the 1300s.

  24. 24.

    Anne Laurie

    March 14, 2014 at 8:28 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    Tomorrow, I take my cat to the vet, donate platelets, and go to a blood/platelet donor recognition event.

    Just to be clear — the vet visit is separate from the blood donation, right? Because I’ve lived with some cats who required blood donations under those circumstances…

  25. 25.

    Amir Khalid

    March 14, 2014 at 8:31 pm

    My agenda this weekend is trying not to choke on the haze which, as you can see from the photo in the story, has been very very bad this week. Bad enough that some 200 schools have been closed in Selangor. Right now, the only thing more prominent in the news is the missing flight MH370.

  26. 26.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 8:33 pm

    Thank you for this post. I’ve had enough of seeming ungrateful for criticizing Gates’ philanthropy to those who don’t know his history.

    Setting up a system that supports extreme wealth gathering in a positive feedback loop, and then hoping that they’ll be “nice” enough to give some back is no way to run a society.

    Bill Gates is neither good nor bad, but he has collected *way* more money then any human being deserves to.

    And we shouldn’t have to depend on the kindness of the rich.

  27. 27.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 14, 2014 at 8:33 pm

    @Amir Khalid: If they really went south, it’ll never be found. There’s an awful lot of nothing down there.

  28. 28.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 8:34 pm

    @R-Jud:

    That is unbelievably cool! I’m hoping to revisit the UK next year, and hope I’ll be able to meet you and see the 700-year-old head.

  29. 29.

    Luthe

    March 14, 2014 at 8:35 pm

    My plans for the weekend involve seeing Sirs Stewart and McKellan in Waiting for Godot. And then freezing my buns off in hopes I can get autographs.

  30. 30.

    John D.

    March 14, 2014 at 8:37 pm

    A $36 billion foundation and a call for a 50% tax rate is admirable, in isolation. The same things are somewhat less admirable in the context of a $76 billion fortune.

    You know what? No, they fucking well aren’t.

    I do not CARE how large his fortune is. $36 billion dedicated to worthy causes is THIRTY SIX BILLION DOLLARS that was not being dedicated to them previously. That’s admirable, period. And I am sick unto death with people always trying to find the angle to downplay that sort of charity.

  31. 31.

    Roger Moore

    March 14, 2014 at 8:37 pm

    @Anne Laurie:

    Just to be clear — the vet visit is separate from the blood donation, right?

    It’s a platelet donation, and it is carefully scheduled for after the vet visit. Jake is actually not that bad about visiting the vet. I think he still has some abandonment issues and definitely fear of going to strange places, but that makes him more intimidated and clingy than defensive and prone to lash out. I don’t expect to need any platelets as part of visiting the vet, but it never hurts to be prepared.

  32. 32.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 8:37 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    This story has grabbed me by the throat and refused to let go over the past week (my gods! Has it really been a WEEK??)

    I just can’t imagine what it’s like for those of you in KL. I am sick at heart for anyone with friends or relatives aboard that flight. What a mystery.

  33. 33.

    Ian

    March 14, 2014 at 8:40 pm

    I’ll take this kind of billionaire over the Kochs.

  34. 34.

    MikeJ

    March 14, 2014 at 8:40 pm

    So if you say that a government program isn’t as good as it could be you have to turn in your liberal card? That’s pretty goddamned stupid.

  35. 35.

    John D.

    March 14, 2014 at 8:40 pm

    @Joey Giraud: Bill Gates is neither good nor bad, but he has collected *way* more money then any human being deserves to.

    “Deserves”? Really? Who gets to make that determination?

    That’s a deathly serious question, BTW. If you feel someone has too much money, how do you determine the level, and how do you enforce it?

  36. 36.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 8:41 pm

    @John D.:

    How about THIRTY SIX BILLION dollars spent by the Federal Government for school lunches and health care for American poor kids instead? ( of whatever self-serving techno-nonsense the Gates Foundation does )

    Tax the rich.

  37. 37.

    Walker

    March 14, 2014 at 8:42 pm

    The problem with data driven approaches is that there is always a major non-quantitative step: establishing that your metric indeed measures what you claim it does. This is the issue at the very heart of the teacher reform movement, and is why many people see Gates on the wrong side of that movement.

  38. 38.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 8:43 pm

    @John D.:

    I do. You do. We all do.

    If this system of extreme wealth, winner-take-all economics strikes you as the best of all possible worlds…

    This won’t go on forever. People will figure it out and change things.

  39. 39.

    R-Jud

    March 14, 2014 at 8:44 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Uh, YES. West Midlands meet-up!

  40. 40.

    Davis X. Machina

    March 14, 2014 at 8:45 pm

    Wealth? Or annual income?

  41. 41.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 8:45 pm

    @John D.:

    Here’s what I think.

    Ten million dollars is enough. Stop right there. No one should be able to collect more then that.

    Simple. Follow these rules and the world will be a better place. I guarantee it.

  42. 42.

    NotMax

    March 14, 2014 at 8:45 pm

    although many people reflexively assume that someone so concerned about helping the poor must be a progressive liberal

    Any article in which a writer or editor has let such lazy, vapid tripe slip through is worth putting down right then and there.

    Yup, sure they do. No difference from Mr. Nolan dripping patronizingly that the rabble confuses Mother Jones and Mother Theresa as being philosophically interchangeable. Or that people “reflexively assume” Andrew Carnegie was a “progressive liberal” because he funded construction of free libraries.

    I am not speaking of the interview itself (haven’t read it and don’t care to read it), but referring to the sophomoric Gawker Cliff’s Notes version excerpted. Hamilton Nolan is a byline will now make a mental note to scroll past in the future.

  43. 43.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 8:48 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    @R-Jud:

    see the 700-year-old head.

    LOFL!! I would say FYAC, but I don’t want to disable it because it comes up with such fetching bizarrenesses!

    Um, that was supposed to be “700-year-old HEDGE.” For fuck’s sake.

  44. 44.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 8:48 pm

    @NotMax:

    I always thought that Andrew Carnegie funded construction of free libraries because he was, ( like a lot of rich people, ) convinced of his own moral superiority and wanted to demonstrate it to the world.

    One of the better things I can say about Gates is he did realize that his extreme wealth had a lot to do with luck. Faint praise though.

  45. 45.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 8:50 pm

    @R-Jud:

    Awesome. It will happen!

  46. 46.

    Howard Beale IV

    March 14, 2014 at 8:51 pm

    Let’s hope someone in Metro Detroit gives this canine a good forever home:

    Michigan Humane Society officials are hoping a $2,500 reward will lead to the arrest of the culprit who left a severely abused 4-year-old Maltese-mix dog in a garbage can on Detroit’s west side last weekend.

    The dog, who has been named Edgar, was rescued late Sunday morning from a trash can near Grand River and Warwick Street after a passerby, who was walking his own dog, heard whimpering, the Humane Society said in a news release Friday.

    A Humane Society rescue driver found Edgar had a bag handle twisted around his neck. The dog was covered with severe urine burns, and it appeared he had been confined at another location for a long time before being placed in the garbage can.

  47. 47.

    John D.

    March 14, 2014 at 8:54 pm

    @Joey Giraud: And a 50% tax rate is not “taxing the rich” how?

    You seem to be of the opinion that is the money is not spent on whatever program you specifically desire, it doesn’t count as real charity. That’s bullshit.

    $2 billion for malaria research. Yeah, self-serving techno-nonsense. Likewise the $1.4 billion AIDS money. Or the $1 billion for polio eradication efforts. Oooh, and the $1.02 billion for “neglected infection diseases” like onchocerciasis, dengue, HPV, hookworm, etc.

    You want USA results? http://www.gatesfoundation.org/How-We-Work/Quick-Links/Grants-Database#q/program=US%20Program&sort=amount

    Wow, over $1.5 billion for the United Negro College Fund *alone*. Doesn’t count though, it’s not lunches and healthcare, right?

    Idiot.

  48. 48.

    NotMax

    March 14, 2014 at 8:56 pm

    @Joey Giraud

    Neither here nor there. Used Carnegie solely as a handy well-known example of ultra-wealthy largesse to point out the vacuity of Hamilton’s scribblings.

  49. 49.

    muddy

    March 14, 2014 at 8:57 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: I was told 14 years ago that I could reasonably expect to live 2 years, maybe 5. Stupid doctors not going to tell me what to do! I like the second lease on life, I pay more attention to it now.

  50. 50.

    John D.

    March 14, 2014 at 8:58 pm

    @Joey Giraud: OK, so a $10 million hard cap. Now answer the question – how do you enforce it?

    If you say “100% tax rate on anything over 10 million USD”, congratulations, you have just destroyed the American economy. There is not one major corporation that would headquarter anywhere in the USA if that was the case. Nor would the factories be here. No jobs, no tax revenue, no *anything*. It’s nowhere near as simple as you’d like it to be.

  51. 51.

    Amir Khalid

    March 14, 2014 at 9:00 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    Until the authorities know that everyone is dead, they can’t declare it to be so. Meanwhile, you live with the terror of loss; yet you don’t even know if you do have a loss. You don’t get to begin coming to terms with it, never mind moving on from it. To spend a day or a week or however long it turns out to be, not knowing when you will learn anything, if ever — no one should have to suffer that. I can’t imagine what it must be like for the families, either.

  52. 52.

    Cassidy

    March 14, 2014 at 9:03 pm

    Gates also didn’t sing Snowden’s praises. I say we burn him at the stake.

  53. 53.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 9:04 pm

    @John D.:

    That’s all very nice, you idiot, but it doesn’t affect my point, which is that we shouldn’t be depending on the kindness of rich people who collected ridiculous wealth.

    The government could spend that money as well or better.

  54. 54.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 9:04 pm

    @Cassidy:

    You’re like a flute that only plays one note, and it’s an annoying note at that.

  55. 55.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 14, 2014 at 9:05 pm

    @efgoldman: Thanks. Can’t get one fucking day of optimism after four decades in the goddamn wilderness.

  56. 56.

    Pogonip

    March 14, 2014 at 9:07 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Hi Amir, I saw a news photo of a Malaysian shaman trying to work magic to find the missing plane. He was holding up two big green fruits or vegetables. Do you know what the big green things were and what magic the guy was trying to work with them?

  57. 57.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 9:08 pm

    @John D.:

    You enforce these this things with laws. The same way we create the system that allows individuals to “own” the product of the labor of thousands.

    Of course corporations wouldn’t like this, and corporations are people, my friend ( that’s a joke, in case you didn’t get it. )

    Under this more sane economic system, corporations wouldn’t be anything like they are today, they would probably not even be called “corporations.”

  58. 58.

    Cervantes

    March 14, 2014 at 9:09 pm

    @Joey Giraud: If you had many such flutes, though, each playing a different note, then you could really have something!

  59. 59.

    John D.

    March 14, 2014 at 9:10 pm

    @Joey Giraud: I’m all for massive tax increases. Well beyond 50% even. I just think 100% is stupid, short-sighted, and proven as unworkable.

    I am COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY against anyone telling anyone else that there is a maximum amount they are allowed to have. Mainly because I don’t trust the people who would be in charge of setting the level and enforcing it to not *immediately* set it to $0 and take everything. That is far, far too much power to grant to a government.

    Obviously, the people in your world are benevolent and would never consider doing such a thing.

  60. 60.

    NotMax

    March 14, 2014 at 9:10 pm

    @Amir Khalid

    Just curious if there has been any sort of reaction to the government’s ban of that Ultraman comic, or if it is relegated to yesterday’s news.

  61. 61.

    Cervantes

    March 14, 2014 at 9:11 pm

    @Pogonip: Those are coconuts.

  62. 62.

    Amir Khalid

    March 14, 2014 at 9:12 pm

    @Pogonip:
    The very idea of a bomoh attempting to search for MH370 by magical means is so embarrassing to me as a Malaysian that I never want to see that photo. I trust you’ll understand.

  63. 63.

    guachi

    March 14, 2014 at 9:13 pm

    Bill Gates sounds like less of a dick than the author of the article.

    While I disagree with his education “reform”, I certainly applaud all the work he’s done to eradicate disease around the world as I think it’s the best bang-for-the-buck to improve the lives of people around the world.

  64. 64.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 14, 2014 at 9:13 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: This is for you.

  65. 65.

    RandomMonster

    March 14, 2014 at 9:14 pm

    The interview mentions Gates’s opinion of Snowden, and the crowd here didn’t turn this into a Snowden thread?! Everyone here is losing their touch.

  66. 66.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 9:16 pm

    @Cervantes:

    A cacophony indeed. Yikes.

    Maybe they could perform at the yearly NSA costume ball.

  67. 67.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 9:16 pm

    @efgoldman:

    I remember my cardiologist in 1993 telling me, basically, you can do everything the books prescribe in terms of diet, and exercise, and medication, but the single most important thing you can do is quit smoking. If you quit and ignore everything else, you’re still better off. If you change your diet, exercise, and take all the prescribed meds but still keep smoking, you’re probably an exercise in futility.

    I quit, took the meds, made slight modifications to my diet, and am here to tell the story a generation later.

    (Twenty-one years. I frame it in terms of, if I had given birth that day, my kid would be able to drink legally today. It is a sobering, you should excuse the pun, thought.)

  68. 68.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 9:16 pm

    @RandomMonster:

    Sssh. Don’t wake them up.

  69. 69.

    Cervantes

    March 14, 2014 at 9:16 pm

    @Amir Khalid: This is the photo you don’t want to see.

    “We appreciate all help,” said Datuk Seri Jamil Khir Baharom, an official in Malaysia’s prime minister’s office. The official cheered the bomoh and had but one concern. “When it comes to mysticism,” he fretted, “the methods used must conform to Islamic teachings.”

    One doesn’t know whether to laugh or cry.

  70. 70.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 9:18 pm

    @efgoldman:

    I am so glad you are well!! This place wouldn’t be the same without you. Really hope to meet you this summer on my Grand Tour!

  71. 71.

    Cassidy

    March 14, 2014 at 9:18 pm

    @Joey Giraud: Sure, sure. You should go set yourself on fire and show us how much of a pure, true believer liberaltarian you are. Seriously, you won’t be missed.

  72. 72.

    Pogonip

    March 14, 2014 at 9:18 pm

    Thank you, Cervantes. Sorry, Amir, I didn’t mean to embarrass you.

  73. 73.

    ruemara

    March 14, 2014 at 9:18 pm

    @Joey Giraud: from you, that is hilarious.

  74. 74.

    Jibeaux

    March 14, 2014 at 9:20 pm

    @rk: sometimes you can only take comfort in knowing that those guys can’t be too convincing.

  75. 75.

    Cassidy

    March 14, 2014 at 9:20 pm

    @Joey Giraud: That’s your plan? Really? You are one seriously stupid motherfucker. You were homeschooled weren’t you?

  76. 76.

    raven

    March 14, 2014 at 9:21 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: I don’t really look down my nose at it, I just don’t get into it until the playoffs. I used to drive miles to watch Butterbean Love and Chet the Jet Walker play!

  77. 77.

    Cervantes

    March 14, 2014 at 9:21 pm

    @Pogonip: We have Sarah and John and Michelle and Rick et cetera ad infinitum and Amir Khalid thinks he should feel embarrassed?

  78. 78.

    Baud

    March 14, 2014 at 9:22 pm

    Who’s the guy subbing for Rachel? Never seen him before a few weeks ago and he’s suddenly guest hosting for various people.

  79. 79.

    raven

    March 14, 2014 at 9:23 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:I quit smoking when I was 19 years old and drinking when I was 44. Maybe it won’t mean a thing. I know a guy who has never touched anything, is a heavy duty runner and he’s dying of ling cancer.

  80. 80.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 9:24 pm

    @John D.:

    No, I understand and agree with you; it would be difficult.

    Trusting the government is a problem in a country where the government is left to the rich to control. It’s a conundrum, no doubt.

    And I state the hard limit to wealth as a first offer in a bargain, it’s not really practical to set hard limits in a debt-based currency economy. Steeply progressive taxation ( up to 90% at the top, ) is quite workable. We used to have that for awhile in the 50’s.

    But something will have to change. The shift from feudal economics to the “liberal at the time” system of capitalism wasn’t easy either. But capitalism, left to it’s own devices, will devolve right back to feudal economics ( we’re well on the way. )

    The rich have become our lords and ladies of the landed aristocracy.

  81. 81.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 9:25 pm

    @muddy:

    Wow! Congratulations, and I hope your doctors were even more wrong! I’ve never had an M.D. give me any kind of prediction of life expectancy, and I’ve never asked. I’ve passed my three-score-and-ten, but except for a slightly arthritic hip, I feel as well as I’ve ever felt. Working with my cardio on getting the blood pressure down and keeping the cholesterol within good limits. I know I could do a lot more, but I’m philosophically unwilling to trade enjoyment for years of mere survival. (Much more nuanced than that, but you get the general idea.)

  82. 82.

    Cassidy

    March 14, 2014 at 9:25 pm

    @Cervantes: Please tell us more. One always loves to hear your fake intellectual schtick. You have got to be the toast of your larp game.

  83. 83.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 14, 2014 at 9:27 pm

    @Cervantes: Sounds like the clown who dismissed all the talk of Mayan numerology heralding the end of the world because it wasn’t biblically based.

  84. 84.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 9:27 pm

    @Cassidy:

    Oh, I would be offended by anyone else saying that.

    Really Cassidy, if you can’t understand it, just don’t comment.

  85. 85.

    Cervantes

    March 14, 2014 at 9:27 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    So we will be co-Ambassadors during the 2014-15 season.

    Sounds grand! Have fun!

  86. 86.

    Cervantes

    March 14, 2014 at 9:29 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Yes, and I didn’t know then, either, whether to sob or snicker.

  87. 87.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 9:32 pm

    @ruemara:

    Have you not noticed? I’m talking economics tonight! National insecurity isn’t on the menu.

  88. 88.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 9:33 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    I don’t even know what the statute is. After a full week, it seems intuitively likely that everyone aboard is dead (barring some strange Stephen-King-XFiles-conspiracy scenario), but at the same time one hates to be defeatist. At what point do the authorities move from Search-and-Rescue to Search-and-Recover? (Or whatever it is when there’s nothing yet to recover?)

  89. 89.

    Cassidy

    March 14, 2014 at 9:33 pm

    @Joey Giraud: Oh I understood it. Your idea of economics is based on revenge fantasies. Sad and pathetic.

  90. 90.

    Cervantes

    March 14, 2014 at 9:35 pm

    @PurpleGirl: BOB was foisted on Microsoft’s victims in the mid-’90s, not the mid-’80s.

  91. 91.

    Cassidy

    March 14, 2014 at 9:36 pm

    @Joey Giraud: Thanks for that laugh. I needed that. You know economics the way your mother knows condoms. Unfortunately for us, she can’t learn from that mistake.

  92. 92.

    muddy

    March 14, 2014 at 9:36 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: I asked them to take a good guess at it, because I had a kid at home, they didn’t offer the numbers up. I’m with you on the enjoyment too. My dad used to say, “Does it really make you live longer or does it just seem that way?”

    I will say that the one downside to outliving expectations is that I would have saved more money back then if Id known I’d live so long! Not well planned out on my part.

    I hope when you go wandering you come to Vermont!

  93. 93.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 9:37 pm

    @raven:

    Yeah, I think it’s more about overall statistics and not individual cases. I’m sorry about your friend. That seems so fucking unfair.

  94. 94.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 9:38 pm

    @Cassidy:

    Of course dear, that’s just what I meant.

    Cookies with your milk?

  95. 95.

    gian

    March 14, 2014 at 9:39 pm

    @Joey Giraud:
    Carnegie was pro inheritance tax big time

  96. 96.

    raven

    March 14, 2014 at 9:39 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: There are so many people I know right now who are battling cancer I need a program to keep them straight.

  97. 97.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 9:41 pm

    @muddy:

    Vermont is definitely on the list! I hope to use the ever-patient Anne Laurie as a conduit for hooking me up with New England/Atlantic Provinces BJuicers.

    AL, if you wish to decline this honour, speak now or forever … You know the drill.

  98. 98.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 9:43 pm

    @raven:

    That sucks beyond belief. I had a year like that, 1999, when I literally feared to answer the phone because it was likely to be news of yet another death of year another friend.

    Horrible. I know what a good friend you are to them. They are lucky to have you.

  99. 99.

    raven

    March 14, 2014 at 9:44 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Thanks, I hope it even a little true.

  100. 100.

    Howard Beale IV

    March 14, 2014 at 9:44 pm

    @PurpleGirl: Off by a decade.

  101. 101.

    Anne Laurie

    March 14, 2014 at 9:46 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Hey, I’m very much looking forward to meeting you myself!

    If we can leverage the occasion to meet more BJers in person, all the better!

  102. 102.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 9:47 pm

    @gian:

    That’s true. He believed it was bad for the children to get money they didn’t work for.

    And that’s right, but it’s a personal morality reason, and had nothing to do with concern for the folk who made him his millions.

    My overarching theory here is that virtually all uber-rich are self-centered and any good they do for society is incidental.

    Hell of a way to run a society.

  103. 103.

    muddy

    March 14, 2014 at 9:49 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: You are welcome to get my email addy from AL. I have a quaint little guest room in a quaint little house in a quaint little village. There are a lot of pushy animals present, I always feel I should warn folks.

  104. 104.

    Cassidy

    March 14, 2014 at 9:54 pm

    @Joey Giraud: blah, blah, blah….boooooorring.

  105. 105.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 9:56 pm

    You poor fellow. Is there no WWF on TV tonight? No American Gladiator?

  106. 106.

    Cervantes

    March 14, 2014 at 9:57 pm

    @Joey Giraud:

    My overarching theory here is that virtually all uber-rich are self-centered and any good they do for society is incidental.

    Maybe it depends on what you mean by “virtually all uber-rich”?

  107. 107.

    PurpleGirl

    March 14, 2014 at 10:00 pm

    @R-Jud: That was a neat article to read. Hope the hedge lasts another 700 years. Thanks for posting it.

  108. 108.

    Amir Khalid

    March 14, 2014 at 10:13 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    I don’t think there’s a hard and fast rule on that.

  109. 109.

    Tommy

    March 14, 2014 at 10:14 pm

    My gosh this just happened. Parents in town, staying with me. I work for myself and make a pretty good living, but don’t save much anymore (just paid taxes, oh that was fun). Before this for 15+ years I maxed out my 401K with good matching funds, so I have money “saved.” I have NO debit. Own my house outright. Same with my car. No credit card debit. No student loans.

    Riding with my mom tonight, and gosh I swear I am not making this up cause she is more current events “smart” then I bet most of the population.

    She said, “your web design work, thinking of going back to a corporation so you have a pension when you want to retire?”

    I will let that sink in for a second.

    I should note my mother is an election judge. And on most days knows what is happening in the world.

    Let it sink in more.

    I was like mom this world isn’t like that anymore. The pension your father and your brother had at Snap-on. My dad, as a Civil Servant for the government, well that isn’t how things work anymore.

    I went on to say maybe you get mad at my liberal this or liberal that statements (she did vote for Obama last time around — first Democrat vote for POTUS in 50+ years of voting), but at many levels that is the core of what we are talking about. There are NOT FUCKING PENSIONS ANYMORE.

    I went on the rich are getting richer. My lot for my future, and I have almost $200,000 in my 401K plan is with the stock market.

    I ranted for a long time and then said mom, I expect to work until I am at least your age now, and you and dad have been retired for almost 20 years.

    She was silent for the first time I can recall in my life.

    We went on to another topic. But will bring it up with her again and again now she brought it up with me. My fucking pension!!!!!

  110. 110.

    Pogonip

    March 14, 2014 at 10:18 pm

    @muddy: Hi Muddy, is it true Vermont is restoring certain basic services on its own and not waiting for a dysfunctional Federal government? I think I might like to live in such a place.

  111. 111.

    muddy

    March 14, 2014 at 10:21 pm

    @Pogonip: Which services? Do you mean during Irene when people made their own interstate exit?

  112. 112.

    Pogonip

    March 14, 2014 at 10:23 pm

    I feel I ought to speak a word on behalf of Coconut Guy. I can see where the WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic) viewpoint may find him embarrassing, but remember, WEIRDos are a tiny minority. Can we at least allow for the possibility that he is honestly trying to help in the best way he can think of?

  113. 113.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 14, 2014 at 10:26 pm

    Election results here. If you want to know how the Crimean referendum will go, here’s a photo of stacks of pre-printed ballots, and reports of busloads of Russians coming through the ferry terminal in Kerch.

  114. 114.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 10:30 pm

    @Anne Laurie:

    We will make it happen!

    (So let it be written … So let it be done.)

  115. 115.

    Pogonip

    March 14, 2014 at 10:35 pm

    @muddy: No, more like restoring basic public services: highway maintenance, health, that sort of thing. Of course I failed to save the article, sorry.

  116. 116.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 10:39 pm

    @Cervantes:

    John, Robert and Teddy ( I just explained their history to my youngest son, who overheard the video you linked.. ) are not my idea of uber-rich.

    Merely quite wealthy.

    Uber rich? Erik Prince, the Kochs, Scaife, Peterson, the Waltons. Billions of dollars, not a mere 20-30 million.

    What do you think? Would the Kennedy’s have been less liberal if they had less money? I don’t think so myself.

  117. 117.

    muddy

    March 14, 2014 at 10:39 pm

    We are going to single payer for healthcare, not sure what else.

  118. 118.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 10:41 pm

    @muddy: always happy to be pushed by pushy animals!

  119. 119.

    muddy

    March 14, 2014 at 10:48 pm

    It would be fun! I live in a really delightful wee town.

  120. 120.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 10:55 pm

    @muddy: I have a lot of Vermont ancestors, so expect be in the Green Mountain state for a few days at least, doing some genealogical research and soaking in the scenery.

  121. 121.

    Amir Khalid

    March 14, 2014 at 10:56 pm

    @Pogonip:
    There’s more than a dash of blatant self-promotion to the self-proclaimed Raja Bomoh Sedunia Nujum VIP (VIP Soothsayer Shaman King Of The World), you’ll notice. Even if I were willing to concede his good intentions, which I am not, he’s mocking a very real tragedy with his buffoonery. If any government officials abetted this abomination, even if only by acquiescing to it, they’ve added needlessly to the pain of the families involved.

  122. 122.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 10:57 pm

    @Cervantes:

    I just tried to find out how much the Kennedy clan was worth, and I ran into the primary obstacle; private wealth can be kept secret. No one really knows.

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/08/the-kennedy-fortune-how-much-is-it-worth-and-who-gets-what-now-that-teddy-is-gone.html

    This article suggests Teddy was worth 45-150 million, the upper end is pretty close to uber-rich.

    Wonder how he grabbed that extra cash, it didn’t all come from daddy or a Senator’s wages.

    Probably “investments” or “speaking fees” or dozens of “corporate board chairs.” Teddy was a far better senator then the alternatives, but I’m sure he didn’t abstain from the cornucopia of legal bribery that controls Washington.

  123. 123.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 14, 2014 at 10:57 pm

    @efgoldman: Why bother? Dunno. I’ve given up even attempting to divine Putin’s plans. I read a week or so ago that they printed 2.4 million ballots. The total population is somewhere a little under 2 million, so registered voters are way fewer.

  124. 124.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 11:02 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    The cynic in me would say that at least the Russians steal their elections honestly.

  125. 125.

    dww44

    March 14, 2014 at 11:03 pm

    @Joey Giraud: but, indexed for inflation, no?

  126. 126.

    Amir Khalid

    March 14, 2014 at 11:03 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:
    I have a sneaking suspicion that Putin doesn’t actually have a plan, that he’s just running on auto.

  127. 127.

    NotMax

    March 14, 2014 at 11:08 pm

    @Amir Khalid

    All we know for sure is that Lenin’s tomb is a communist plot.

    [rimshot]

  128. 128.

    muddy

    March 14, 2014 at 11:08 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: You can call on me for anything. My schedule is blessedly flexible.

    ETA: scenery is extra nice because there are no billboards

  129. 129.

    Cervantes

    March 14, 2014 at 11:10 pm

    @Joey Giraud: Glad your son learned something from/via those videos.

    Billions of dollars, not a mere 20-30 million.

    Joe’s fortune — he died in ’69 — would have been worth about 3.5 billion dollars in 2013, adjusting only for inflation.

    What do you think? Would the Kennedy’s have been less liberal if they had less money?

    Less liberal politically? No.

  130. 130.

    trollhattan

    March 14, 2014 at 11:11 pm

    @Tommy:

    Pensions. What a quaint 20th century concept.

    http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2023062695_boeingpensionsxml.html

  131. 131.

    Cervantes

    March 14, 2014 at 11:11 pm

    @Joey Giraud:

    Probably “investments” or “speaking fees” or dozens of “corporate board chairs.” Teddy was a far better senator then the alternatives, but I’m sure he didn’t abstain from the cornucopia of legal bribery that controls Washington.

    None of the above.

  132. 132.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 14, 2014 at 11:12 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Ukrainians and Russians are prone to deep, complex and multi-layered conspiracy theories, but people I know with various sources in the Ukrainian military indicate they are convinced that this is a plan that was worked out some time ago, for execution next year, but events speeded up the schedule.

  133. 133.

    dww44

    March 14, 2014 at 11:15 pm

    @Baud: He’s Ari Melber from The Nation magazine and he’s been guesting on MSNBC for quite some time. Has his own daytime show weekdays now. I’ve long thought he was quite good.

  134. 134.

    dww44

    March 14, 2014 at 11:21 pm

    @Tommy: Enjoyed that. Thanks. Real world comment, lack of punctuation notwithstanding. Just kiddin about the absence of punctuation. Makes the reading of the post even more fun.

  135. 135.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 14, 2014 at 11:25 pm

    @muddy:

    Thanks! I’ll look forward to connecting with you, and of course to meeting you in person!

  136. 136.

    Cervantes

    March 14, 2014 at 11:26 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Did you catch Putin’s press conference last week?

  137. 137.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 11:26 pm

    @dww44:

    Uh, yeah.

    It was a radical statement meant to shift the Overton Window. I actually don’t think it’s practical. But then my most dear desires usually aren’t.

  138. 138.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 11:30 pm

    @Cervantes:

    “None of the above” means:
    1. he didn’t get his post-inheritance wealth from any of those places?
    2. he never took any “honest graft?”
    3. he got his money from a means of “honest graft” that I didn’t list?
    4. he didn’t really have much money.
    5. other.

  139. 139.

    Origuy

    March 14, 2014 at 11:32 pm

    Remember that the bulk of Gates’ wealth is in Microsoft stock. He doesn’t have 76 billion in a checking account. If he cashed it all out, not only would the stock price plummet, but he would lose what is really important to him, control of the company. Rich people set up foundations and transfer stock to them so that they keep control of the company. You can bet that Bill and Melinda are directors of their foundation not just so that they can direct the foundation, but so that they can vote the foundation’s shares.

  140. 140.

    Origuy

    March 14, 2014 at 11:35 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: It seems like it has to have been planned for a while. You don’t whip up that many black insignialess uniforms overnight. The Russian military (I mean Crimean militia) have been extremely professional in avoiding shooting anyone. They’ve been trained for this.

  141. 141.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 11:37 pm

    @trollhattan:

    The comments in that article make Balloon-Juice sound like an American Legion meeting in comparison.

  142. 142.

    Joey Giraud

    March 14, 2014 at 11:41 pm

    @Origuy:

    lose what is really important to him, control of the company.

    That’s right. A narcissist to the very end.

    He’s trying to buy our love. With money he shouldn’t have.

  143. 143.

    cckids

    March 15, 2014 at 12:42 am

    @rk:

    I went to the pharmacy yesterday and as I was waiting for my prescription, an older man started complaining loudly that his medication was not covered. “This is all due to Obamacare, they’ve stopped covering medications”

    My dad was convinced that his doctor retiring (he has Senior Dimensions via Medicare) was due to Obamacare. Also, that the government was “trying to force Catholic hospitals to all do abortions”.

    I gave him a few facts, but it feels positively Sisyphean at this point, fighting Fox News.

  144. 144.

    Anne Laurie

    March 15, 2014 at 12:47 am

    @SiubhanDuinne: Okay — I emailed you Muddy’s email. Muddy, I cc’d you on that email so you two should both be up to speed. Looking forward to the Big Adventure!

  145. 145.

    Ruckus

    March 15, 2014 at 12:52 am

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    Had a doc tell me once to change my diet and I would live longer. I asked him how long. The answer was probably about 6 weeks but it was the quality of life that would be better. Asked how is the quality of life better if all I eat is weeds and seeds just so I can live 6 weeks longer. So in trying for those 6 weeks I just passed 30 yrs illicit drug free this month, drink very seldom, haven’t smoked tobacco in 44 yrs. But those 6 weeks come at the end, not in the middle and as my life goes I probably will end up with Alzheimer’s anyway(strong family history) so I wouldn’t be enjoying them in any case.

  146. 146.

    Chris

    March 15, 2014 at 12:54 am

    @Joey Giraud:

    Word on the second paragraph.

    The rich have spent the last thirty or forty years shredding the safety net and dodging the taxes that pay for it. Forgive me if I greet with less than overwhelming gratitude the fact that some of them have the scruples to give some of the loot back.

  147. 147.

    gwangung

    March 15, 2014 at 12:58 am

    @Origuy:

    Remember that the bulk of Gates’ wealth is in Microsoft stock.

    Actually, not precisely.

    A lot of it still is, but he’s gradually, over the decades, been shifting more and more of it out of Microsoft to diversify. That’s how it’s actually grown in size in an era where Microsoft’s stock price is stagnant. Controlled self off keeps the stock price high, but his holdings are still diversified enough for growth.

  148. 148.

    gorram

    March 15, 2014 at 4:22 am

    @NotMax:

    No difference from Mr. Nolan dripping patronizingly that the rabble confuses Mother Jones and Mother Theresa as being philosophically interchangeable. Or that people “reflexively assume” Andrew Carnegie was a “progressive liberal” because he funded construction of free libraries.

    I mean, I’ve heard people make precisely those two arguments so, call me cynical, but I think there might be some correcting that needs making here on these sorts of charitable people.

    And I think it’s instructive that the original article just noted the prevalence of those arguments. You’re the one who took that turned it into a class-linked phenomenon (“the rabble”). I’m more than willing to bet that the key believers in this sort of mythic connection between not-actively-terrible-charity-providers and effective progressive compassion are not the people who need or are likely to need economic assistance. Given Hamilton Nolan’s argument, it seems he would agree with that.

  149. 149.

    skwerlhugger

    March 15, 2014 at 7:50 am

    Bob was the iPad without a zeitgeist, and without the oh-so-cool black t-shirt. My spouse would have loved it, and my elderly father would have gotten more use out of it than the iPad I bought him but that he never took to.

  150. 150.

    master c

    March 15, 2014 at 12:52 pm

    @A Ghost To Most: She was the valedictorian of my high school class here in Dallas. She was also captain of the drill team and voted most likely to succeed. I feel like she has done well. Think how crazy she could be with all of her notoriety and wealth…but she’s just a really smart lady.

  151. 151.

    Joey Giraud

    March 15, 2014 at 4:58 pm

    been shifting more and more of it out of Microsoft to diversify. That’s how it’s actually grown in size in an era where Microsoft’s stock price is stagnant.

    And that’s how rich people get richer, make a call to the stock broker and wait. The little people have to actually produce something to get money.

  152. 152.

    brantl

    March 17, 2014 at 12:39 pm

    @Joey Giraud: And he collected it in a way that much resembled Somali Pirates, He stuck it to competitors in the Desktop applications market so badly, that he got nailed for anti-trust; then the Bush administration let him off in the penalty phase.

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