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You are here: Home / Food & Recipes / Food / Tuesday Evening Open Thread: Enjoy Your Meal!

Tuesday Evening Open Thread: Enjoy Your Meal!

by Anne Laurie|  March 18, 20145:55 pm| 70 Comments

This post is in: Food, Open Threads, Science & Technology, Decline and Fall

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Appears US agribusiness is taking every mistake made with antibiotics & repeating them with GM crops: http://t.co/sACE5kIu0z Of course.

— billmon (@billmon1) March 18, 2014

From the Wired article:

… Until Bt corn was genetically altered to be poisonous to the pests, rootworms used to cause billions of dollars in damage to U.S. crops. Named for the pesticidal toxin-producing Bacillus thuringiensis gene it contains, Bt corn now accounts for three-quarters of the U.S. corn crop. The vulnerability of this corn could be disastrous for farmers and the environment…

First planted in 1996, Bt corn quickly became hugely popular among U.S. farmers. Within a few years, populations of rootworms and corn borers, another common corn pest, had plummeted across the midwest. Yields rose and farmers reduced their use of conventional insecticides that cause more ecological damage than the Bt toxin.

By the turn of the millennium, however, scientists who study the evolution of insecticide resistance were warning of imminent problems. Any rootworm that could survive Bt exposures would have a wide-open field in which to reproduce; unless the crop was carefully managed, resistance would quickly emerge.

Key to effective management, said the scientists, were refuges set aside and planted with non-Bt corn. Within these fields, rootworms would remain susceptible to the Bt toxin. By mating with any Bt-resistant worms that chanced to evolve in neighboring fields, they’d prevent resistance from building up in the gene pool.

But the scientists’ own recommendations — an advisory panel convened in 2002 by the EPA suggested that a full 50 percent of each corn farmer’s fields be devoted to these non-Bt refuges — were resisted by seed companies and eventually the EPA itself, which set voluntary refuge guidelines at between 5 and 20 percent. Many farmers didn’t even follow those recommendations…

Distinguished Professor C. Northcote Parkinson, back around the end of the 1960s, wrote a book about the new-fangled science of ecology. He blamed our primate evolution for the root of most of our long-term problems, short- term solutions psychology: Our monkey brains are incurably convinced that anything we can’t see — that has dropped out of the tree — has by all reasonable measures disappeared. And for those once-in-a-monkey’s-lifetime problems that don’t drop away into the void (fruit failure, snake incursions), the sensible solution is just to move on to another tree. Professor Parkinson’s neurobiology may have been weak, but his understanding of social psychology was unimpeachable.

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Reader Interactions

70Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    March 18, 2014 at 6:01 pm

    Didn’t these guys see Jurassic Park? Life finds a way.

  2. 2.

    Trollhattan

    March 18, 2014 at 6:07 pm

    Noone could have anticipated….

  3. 3.

    Violet

    March 18, 2014 at 6:08 pm

    What’s going to kill us first–climate change induced crop failure or mismanagement of GM crops and resulting failure?

  4. 4.

    dmsilev

    March 18, 2014 at 6:11 pm

    @Baud: I’m pretty sure if we released a pack of velociraptors in the halls of lets say Goldman Sachs, the dinosaurs would leave the bankers alone out of professional courtesy.

    And then the bankers would eat the dinosaurs.

  5. 5.

    JustRuss

    March 18, 2014 at 6:15 pm

    What.
    Could.
    Possibly.
    Go.
    Wrong?

  6. 6.

    srv

    March 18, 2014 at 6:15 pm

    GM crops have saved billions of lives.

    Who really needs corn anyway?

  7. 7.

    Nicole

    March 18, 2014 at 6:24 pm

    Our monkey brains are incurably convinced that anything we can’t see — that has dropped out of the tree — has by all reasonable measures disappeared.

    Ergo the anti-vaxxers, too.

  8. 8.

    SatanicPanic

    March 18, 2014 at 6:24 pm

    This is the problem with this kind of ag innovation- farmers aren’t so diligent about reading labels. I don’t know what to do though- not innovate? I doubt there’s a political will to enforce this kind of thing

  9. 9.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 18, 2014 at 6:25 pm

    Damn pointy haired liebral scientists trying to interfere with the Monsanto executives’ bonuses.

  10. 10.

    dmbeaster

    March 18, 2014 at 6:30 pm

    The seed companies are busy making Bt version 2 which will allegedly save us all over again. There is no downside for them in this program.

  11. 11.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 18, 2014 at 6:31 pm

    @Baud: These guys are all Martin Ferrero’s character, imagining the dollar signs.

  12. 12.

    boatboy_srq

    March 18, 2014 at 6:32 pm

    @Nicole: Beat me to it.

  13. 13.

    boatboy_srq

    March 18, 2014 at 6:32 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Beat me to that, too. I’m slipping.

  14. 14.

    boatboy_srq

    March 18, 2014 at 6:35 pm

    @dmbeaster: Btv2. Imagined by Dr. Theopolis, produced by Twiki. New Chicago, here we come…

  15. 15.

    GxB

    March 18, 2014 at 6:39 pm

    Well Ken Ham told us evolution is a lie and God’s will gave us dominion over the (flat) Earth. These things are not for us to question – God’s Will be done.

    Can’t stop morbidly chuckling and thinking of this cartoon – though “executive compensation” should be the punchline.

  16. 16.

    Cermet

    March 18, 2014 at 6:41 pm

    Greed overcomes all – farmers care zero about the environment, soil, and people; the all mighty dollar is all they care for and that alone has rendered the GM corn useless.

  17. 17.

    Litlebritdiftrnt

    March 18, 2014 at 6:45 pm

    If climate change doesn’t kill us then the loss of the bees most surely will. All in the name of profit.

  18. 18.

    gbear

    March 18, 2014 at 6:47 pm

    @Cermet:

    farmers care zero about the environment, soil, and people

    Wow. Do you realize how incredibly suburban you sound?

  19. 19.

    RoonieRoo

    March 18, 2014 at 6:48 pm

    But, but Slate and so many others keep telling us that it’s just the crazy liberals that think GMO’s are a problem. We all just want children to die and starve if we see any problems with GMO’s and we are just as stupid as anti-vaxxers according to many. Oh no, nobody could have seen this coming.

    Geeze.

  20. 20.

    boatboy_srq

    March 18, 2014 at 6:49 pm

    Key to effective management

    THIS is the problem. Monsanto doesn’t give a rat’s a$$ about effective management, and ADM and ConAgra think effective management means downsizing the field labor force. Risk – in their scenarios – is limited to theft of seed intellectual property, or bad publicity that affects their share price. The idea that Nature could [gasp]evolve – especially quickly enough to offset their Perpetual Market Dominance – didn’t enter their bean-counting brains.

    Is it worth mentioning that the 2002 EPA was under Christine Todd Whitney, the Shrub appointee, who said the air at the WTC site post-9/11 was entirely safe? Or that the WH was pressuring the agency all through the Years of Shrubbery to water down its regulations and restate its research to be more “business-friendly”?

  21. 21.

    Xboxershorts

    March 18, 2014 at 6:50 pm

    What makes you think this isn’t how we wound up here…on this rock, at this time….

  22. 22.

    Eric U.

    March 18, 2014 at 6:52 pm

    @Xboxershorts: I am firmly convinced that “the hitchhikers guide” is actually what happened. We are the phone desanitizers

  23. 23.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 18, 2014 at 6:52 pm

    @gbear: Well, ADM and Con-Agra perhaps. The family farm isn’t what it used to be.

  24. 24.

    Sloegin

    March 18, 2014 at 6:52 pm

    @Cermet: How can farmers fight a horrible corn pest that’s easily overcome by simple crop rotation?

    Yeah, I’m stumped too.

  25. 25.

    SatanicPanic

    March 18, 2014 at 6:56 pm

    @RoonieRoo: Uh, liberal over here- GMOs are not a problem. GMOs solved a problem but may not be able to if they’re overused. The article doesn’t suggest they created a new problem.

  26. 26.

    MikeJ

    March 18, 2014 at 7:03 pm

    IT’s easy to call the farmers stupid, but they’re just following the corporate America playbook. If they get lower yields from hlaf of their crop by using non-Bt corn, they’re leaving money on the table. Furthermore, if I plant refuge acres the guy next door might not, and make more money than while still getting much of the benefit.

  27. 27.

    Chyron HR

    March 18, 2014 at 7:04 pm

    @SatanicPanic:

    Uh, hello, obviously Monsanto’s genetically modified corn caused horrible mutations in the harmless cuddly rootworms, so just think what it’s doing to our children.

  28. 28.

    Roger Moore

    March 18, 2014 at 7:04 pm

    @boatboy_srq:

    Monsanto doesn’t give a rat’s a$$ about effective management

    It’s worse than that. Pests developing resistance creates a planned obsolescence effect. They [ETA: meaning Monsanto] desperately want resistance to develop by the time the patent runs out so farmers will be forced to buy the next generation seeds.

  29. 29.

    Trollhattan

    March 18, 2014 at 7:06 pm

    BtCorn/BitCoin, could they BE THE SAME?

  30. 30.

    SatanicPanic

    March 18, 2014 at 7:17 pm

    @Chyron HR: heh heh

  31. 31.

    MikeJ

    March 18, 2014 at 7:23 pm

    @Chyron HR:

    Uh, hello, obviously Monsanto’s genetically modified corn caused horrible mutations in the harmless cuddly rootworms, so just think what it’s doing to our children.

    It doesn’t cause mutations in rootworms. It kills most of them. It puts selection pressure on rootworms, but it doesn’t cause the mutations.

  32. 32.

    Ken

    March 18, 2014 at 7:25 pm

    It’s easy to criticize after the fact, but how could anyone have anticipated that agricultural monocultures were especially vulnerable to pestilence?

  33. 33.

    mattH

    March 18, 2014 at 7:26 pm

    @Chyron HR: satirical, yes?

    @SatanicPanic: attempt to develop “innovations” that I take into account greed and laziness. only thing i’ve got. didn’t say it’d be easy…

  34. 34.

    Linnaeus

    March 18, 2014 at 7:27 pm

    It seems to me that the fight over GMOs – to the extent that there is one anymore – isn’t so much about the technology itself as it is about who controls it and what the consequences of that control are. This is one of those consequences.

  35. 35.

    MikeJ

    March 18, 2014 at 7:28 pm

    Unrelated to corn: pics from today’s crash in Seattle: http://imgur.com/gallery/snws0

  36. 36.

    schrodinger's cat

    March 18, 2014 at 7:29 pm

    Open thread needs kitteh and cheezburger

  37. 37.

    Joel

    March 18, 2014 at 7:29 pm

    Something similar happened with Monsanto’s BT-enhanced cotton, which they acknowledged a few years ago.

    This is actually a fairly old story, what’s new is that the problem is spreading. Human error, shortsightedness, etc. Nothing wrong with GM agriculture, save for the humans that implement it.

  38. 38.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 18, 2014 at 7:32 pm

    @Ken: Pretty much the same way that no one could have even conceived of planes being slammed into buildings as guided missiles in 2001, except for Tom Clancy in the 90’s, of course…

  39. 39.

    Joel

    March 18, 2014 at 7:32 pm

    @srv: Billions, huh? Citation needed.

  40. 40.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 18, 2014 at 7:33 pm

    @Joel:

    Nothing wrong with GM agriculture, save for the humans Ferengi-Pakled hybrids that implement it.

    A small change.

  41. 41.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 18, 2014 at 7:35 pm

    @MikeJ: With the Space Needle in many pictures. Can’t get more iconic Seattle than that.

  42. 42.

    MikeJ

    March 18, 2014 at 7:36 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Monorail track too.

  43. 43.

    BGinCHI

    March 18, 2014 at 7:37 pm

    I don’t see what this has to do with the date Skynet becomes self-aware.

  44. 44.

    srv

    March 18, 2014 at 7:55 pm

    Snowman tells TED the best is yet to come:

    Edward Snowden on Tuesday said the biggest revelations have yet to come out of the estimated 1.7 million documents he acquired from the Security Agency.

    In a surprise appearance via satellite robot at the 2014 TED conference in Vancouver, Snowden said there is still a lot of reporting to be done, including diving deeper into the accusation that the NSA tricks companies into building backdoors into their systems that make data vulnerable to hackers across the world.

    And the man who made your intertubes life says:

    Tim Berners-Lee, a man widely credited with inventing the World Wide Web, then stepped on stage to talk with Snowden.

    He called him a “hero.”

    And to put a final nail into all those things you cudlipped statists hold dear:

    Peanuts in 3D

  45. 45.

    RoonieRoo

    March 18, 2014 at 7:55 pm

    @Chyron HR: You aren’t helping. It is people like you that pretty much make the conversation about the problem with GMO’s impossible to have.

    The problem with GMO’s is

    1) How they are implemented

    2) They are being used to destroy small family farms by big agribusiness. Look up all the lovely lawsuits by Monsanto against farms for theft because pollen drifted into their fields and contaminated their crops. Yes, small farms can control wind for theft! I’m being hyperbolic there but I’m not in the mood to type up a more thorough response.

    3) They are destroying biodiversity, see #2, and in order to continue to grow a variety of vegetable seeds you have to own a ridiculous amount of land to maintain the necessary distance to prevent cross-pollination or bag everything (which is what I have to do).

  46. 46.

    Enzymer

    March 18, 2014 at 7:56 pm

    Aack!

    OK, upfront, I’m an Ag Biotech research scientist (not Monsanto if that is important), but the article linked and many comments have misinformation / misunderstandings that should be corrected

    1. Yes resistance is a problem & it is appearing faster than predicted
    2. Selection for resistant bugs was predicted and a strategy was developed to put off that time… Clearly that failed. Still, US agribusiness (companies + farmers + USDA) tried to put off that time
    3. It is really, really expensive to develop new traits (new resistance genes) and get them on the market. Planned obsolescence doesn’t pay off. Companies, including mine, want to milk these traits for 50 years.
    4. BT is not a single thing, it is a kind of bacteria known to kill insects and eat them. Monsanto’s root worm trait went on the market in 2002 (not 1996). The earlier trait (1996) was for a corn-borer resistance trait, also from BT bacteria, but a totally different protein/gene. Oddly, the corn-borer resistance hasn’t had as big a problem as Monsanto’s root-worm trait. We don’t know why ($million for the person who figures that out)
    5. The industry over the last 5 years has focussed even more strongly on preventing resistance from becoming common. A variety of strategies are in play, but are being discussed intensively, frequently among all players
    6. Industry does enforce refuge requirements (one strategy for preventing resistance). More recently, we incorporate the refuge into every bag of seed (some non-resistant seeds (~15%) are included in every bag.

    * But not exactly as

  47. 47.

    RoonieRoo

    March 18, 2014 at 8:00 pm

    @SatanicPanic: Oh nobody could have seen that they would be overused, poorly implemented and, in the long run, very destructive to our food supply in the loss of biodiversity.

    I’m quite sure you are one that thinks that all arguments about GMO’s comes down to the nutters that think they are being poisoned or it has health risks and that is the only problem. That isn’t the problem with GMO’s but every time a conversation is to be had about the issue, it is overrun with the people screaming about “I’ts not safe!” vs the “It saves babies!” without a single discussion about what Monsanto is doing to our family farms and the variety of seeds available that will eventually have one hell of an affect on our food availability and cost.

    But go ahead, and you and Chyron can have at it about “It’s mutating out children!” and you can say how safe they are and how many problems they solve without any acknowledgement of the actual farming/grower side.

  48. 48.

    Fair Economist

    March 18, 2014 at 8:14 pm

    The refugia don’t stop resistance, they just slow it. No chemical you can put on a plant will, in the long term, kill large groups of possible pests.

    A particular problem with GMO crops is the possibility that the resistance genes will escape into related pest species. There’s documented hybridization between cultivar sugar beets and two different weed beet species, for example, and between carrots and Queen Anne’s lace. Glyphosphate-resistant weeds like that could cause some real problems, especially weed beets, which can interfere with tilling.

  49. 49.

    The Red Pen -- PEN DAMMIT!

    March 18, 2014 at 8:15 pm

    @Enzymer:

    some non-resistant seeds (~15%) are included in every bag.

    IIRC, etymologists thought that 20%-50% refuge was needed to retard development of resistant bugs. Most people agreed that 20% would do it. Monsanto lobbied to have the requirement lowered to 10% and was trying its best to get that down to 5%.

    I worked for Monstanto, if it matters.

    (I see that was in the article.)

  50. 50.

    GregB

    March 18, 2014 at 8:19 pm

    If President Obama hadn’t been so weak these anti-biotic resistant insects wouldn’t be so emboldened.

  51. 51.

    Bitter and Deluded Lurker

    March 18, 2014 at 8:19 pm

    @The Red Pen — PEN DAMMIT!: I’ll spare everyone the dozens of lame jokes that went through my head and just say: You mean entomologists?

  52. 52.

    Diana

    March 18, 2014 at 8:20 pm

    @gbear: yeah, but is it wrong?

  53. 53.

    Roger Moore

    March 18, 2014 at 8:21 pm

    @Joel:

    Nothing wrong with GM agriculture, save for the humans that implement it.

    Sorry, but until we start genetically engineering the farmers, we have to make our agriculture work with the ones we have. “It’s a perfect system except when it’s run by humans” is not an acceptable answer.

  54. 54.

    SatanicPanic

    March 18, 2014 at 8:22 pm

    @RoonieRoo: This story is explicitly about farmers overusing something when they should have known better. No one made them do that. No one makes them overuse pesticides or herbicides, but they do it- either out of laziness, innumeracy (or at least inability to do algebra- hey, I’d do no better) or greed. As far as biodiversity and small farms- I don’t know how you get that GMOs have anything to do with that. Small farms have been dying out for decades, long before GMOs, although this guy seems to be making it. It also doesn’t make sense to me how a company that is making seeds that didn’t exist before is causing us to have a less diverse selection of seeds.

    I’ve just heard too much of this anti-GMO baloney and so when someone is saying “well maybe the science isn’t wrong, but what about this?” It sounds to my ears like someone who just isn’t willing to let the argument go.

  55. 55.

    Enzymer

    March 18, 2014 at 8:23 pm

    @RoonieRoo:
    Don’t make assumptions.

    I grew up on a family farm and still have a financial stake in it (my brother is the farmer). So no, I’m not in favor of solutions that destroy small farmers; though the reality of “small family farm” in the US, particularly for corn & soy is a farm of ~1000 acres, which will support 1-2 families (3-8 people). Margins are tight & productivity is high.

    Most developed-world farmers who grow corn, buy their seed from seed companies for the simple reason that it is more cost-effective, they have done so since the 1940’s. Hybrid corn is much productive per acre than the open-pollinated, saved-seed model that reigned previously. My dad told stories about how our home county went from 100% planting saved seed to buying hybrid over a 4 year period. A few farmers trying the new-fangled seed & found that they had much higher yields for the same work & only slightly more cost. Their neighbors watched, then tried it, etc.

    Yes, to get the highest yield, you need fertilizer, insect control, but if you grow traditional corn & hybrid under the same conditions, 95/100 times the hybrid will give you more corn.

    As much as it pains me to defend Monsanto (who have despicable customer relations), Monsanto hasn’t sued anyone who has had accidental contamination of their fields. All the cases I know of involve farmers trying to get the benefit of the GM seed without paying for it.

    In fact Monsanto & other companies frequently pay damages when someone’s specialty crop is damaged by pollen drift. It’s a known risk, which we try to reduce, and at least in my company we include that as part of the known expense. We know it will happen occasionally, we negotiate with National Corn Growers & other farmer groups as to how we compensate farmers when it happens

    So in summary, meet some real crop scientists, we’re not nearly as cynical as you think.

    p.s. We are also actively trying to find ways to help small farmers in Asia and Africa. There we know our customers may only farm 1-5 acres

  56. 56.

    Roger Moore

    March 18, 2014 at 8:25 pm

    @MikeJ:

    Unrelated to corn: pics from today’s crash in Seattle

    My sister works at the Pacific Science Center and says she got to see the emergency response out her window. Oh, she first mentioned that she’s safe.

  57. 57.

    Diana

    March 18, 2014 at 8:26 pm

    @RoonieRoo: Is it just me, or does “but every time a conversation is to be had about the issue, it is overrun with the people screaming about ‘It’s not safe!’ vs the ‘It saves babies!'” remind anyone else of the abortion debate?

    Behind a lot of this – GMOs, abortion, what have you — is a lot of simplistic thinking. As in, ban the worst-case solution and the entire problem goes away.

  58. 58.

    BGinCHI

    March 18, 2014 at 8:30 pm

    @Bitter and Deluded Lurker: I’m on joke overload after that one.

  59. 59.

    Enzymer

    March 18, 2014 at 8:34 pm

    @Diana:
    Agreed
    I guess I’m supposed to be the knee-jerk “It saves babies” advocate. But, you’ll find most biotech advocates are more “This solution will help in these ways, but has these draw backs” The reality is no single tech solution will solve anything long-term. Those of us in the trenches are painfully aware of that. Antibiotic resistance is our cautionary tale, frequently mentioned as a model for what to avoid.

  60. 60.

    The Ancient Randonneur

    March 18, 2014 at 8:36 pm

    A commenter at LGM linked to this article. Could be first real break in disappearance of MH 370.

  61. 61.

    tybee

    March 18, 2014 at 8:42 pm

    Who really needs corn anyway?

    iffen i can’t get stone ground grits, i’ma gonna cut a motherfucker bad.

  62. 62.

    Cassidy

    March 18, 2014 at 8:42 pm

    If it doesn’t come from Whole Foods we shouldn’t be eating it. Only overpriced, highly marketed foods are good enough.

  63. 63.

    RuhRow_Gyro

    March 18, 2014 at 9:07 pm

    I don’t think that the comparison between genetically modified crops and over-diagnosed antibiotics is valid. Genetically modified crops produce tasty corn-on-the-cob. Over diagnosed antibiotics create resistant bacteria.

  64. 64.

    Belafon

    March 18, 2014 at 9:18 pm

    @Chyron HR: Um, I think you might need to (re)watch Sunday’s Cosmos.

    Edit: Upon reread, I detect more sarcasm. But I’m leaving this for those that don’t.

  65. 65.

    thalarctos (not the other one)

    March 18, 2014 at 9:22 pm

    Hmm. Monoculture that suddenly becomes vulnerable to a rather nasty and devastating pest.

    Just in time for St. Paddy’s Day: Potato Famine 2.0

  66. 66.

    Mnemosyne

    March 18, 2014 at 9:25 pm

    @Nicole:

    If you want some truly depressing denialism, how about the HIV-positive people who become AIDS denialists, up to and including the death of their child and their own deaths?

    It happened in 2008, but it still blows my mind that a person could be in such deep denial about their own medical condition that they’re willing to die rather than admit they were wrong.

  67. 67.

    fubs

    March 18, 2014 at 9:31 pm

    The reason GMOs are bad is that they’re a solution looking for a problem. We grow way more food than we need, and we could still grow way more food than we need, not just without GMOs, but with organic, sustainable practices.

    There would just be less profit in it. That’s all.

    And the desire for more profit is not a problem; it is just a desire.

  68. 68.

    PurpleGirl

    March 18, 2014 at 9:40 pm

    @RoonieRoo: Doesn’t the farmer have to keep buying seed from Monsanto? They can’t hold over seed from season to season, or use the seed from one year to start the next year’s crop or else Monsanto will sue them?

  69. 69.

    Woodrowfan

    March 18, 2014 at 10:13 pm

    i just listed to doomsday on Thom Hartman. I’m ready for the world to end..

  70. 70.

    helping hand

    March 18, 2014 at 10:49 pm

    The reason GMOs are bad is that they’re a solution looking for a problem. We grow way more food than we need, and we could still grow way more food than we need, not just without GMOs, but with organic, sustainable practices.

    This sentiment cannot be expressed often enough. I would add that for Monsanto, or other biotech companies, the decreased effectiveness of their products is a feature not a bug. New superpests will require new super GMO strains and super pesticides, which will be sold by…

    Arms races are always good for business.

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