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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Military / Mid-afternoon Open Thread

Mid-afternoon Open Thread

by Soonergrunt|  April 3, 20143:27 pm| 87 Comments

This post is in: Military, Open Threads

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I completed my Steward training yesterday.  In my post on Tuesday morning, I made the point that we always fight discipline.  A commenter pointed out that doing that made it difficult to get rid of troublesome employees who don’t really belong in the civil service.  I asked our instructor, a Local President from another agency, about this, and this is what he said–“The main reason that we fight every time is because we don’t just represent the individual employee, but the whole bargaining unit and especially our members.  Any time a discipline is adjudicated and handed out, any time a grievance is arbitrated, it makes precedents.  We want those precedents to be as favorable to us and our members as possible.”  So that’s why we fight every time.  Sometimes, we’ll even grieve a discipline that the employee has accepted for that very reason.  But a big part of our job as stewards will be to ensure that employees tell the truth as they know it, and that they take responsibility for their actions.  This goes to our individual credibility as well as the credibility of the union.  “You’re going to get lied to occasionally,” he said. “You’re going to get lied to by your client, by witnesses, and by management.  You’re going to see the real dark sides of people as a steward.”  He also told us that “you two new stewards will shortly be subjected to discipline for something.  They’ll try to get you on whatever they can get you on.”  He asked everybody in the room who had been subjected to discipline to hold up their hands, and everybody but me and the other newbie had their hands up.

I generally try to take people as they come, so the level of cynicism might be a little hard for me.  They told me that we’re going to lose a lot more often than we win.  I can accept that.  It just makes the wins all that much sweeter.

UPDATE–we don’t take every case all the way to arbitration.  The clear losers we don’t take, and cases for non-members we don’t take unless we’re pretty sure we’ll win because the duty to fairly represent doesn’t require us to spend money on a non-member as I understand things.  Arbitration costs between $2,000 to $3,000.  But we do fight the discipline process all the way to the decision point every single time for all employees.  Any confusion on this point for you guys is my fault for not being clear.

On another note, the Fort Hood shooting appears at this time to be your garden variety workplace violence situation and not a terrorist attack or political violence.  Four dead, including the shooter as of this writing and 16 others wounded.  The shooter is described as a Veteran of a recent Iraq tour who never saw hostile action and was apparently a truck driver.  He had no combat badges or medals.  He had self-reported a  traumatic brain injury, but was being evaluated for a “personality disorder.”   What the fuck is wrong with this country when a mass shooting could be described as ‘garden variety’ anything?

A note about that personality disorder–Military doctors have been known to diagnose PTSD/TBI victims in the past as having preexisting personality disorders in order to discharge them from the service quickly without eligibility for pension.  A couple of Army doctors have had their careers ended and medical licenses revoked and a couple actually served terms of confinement for such.  Whether that is in fact the case here, or whether the shooter, SPC Ivan Lopez, 34, was malingering is currently unknown.

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Reader Interactions

87Comments

  1. 1.

    low-tech cyclist

    April 3, 2014 at 3:28 pm

    I think you meant precedents, rather than precedence.

  2. 2.

    Another Holocene Human

    April 3, 2014 at 3:31 pm

    For PhoenixRising, just want to repeat my suggestion to take Amtrak to get through Mississippi if you want to take ground transportation but boycott the state.

  3. 3.

    Groucho48

    April 3, 2014 at 3:33 pm

    Generally, administration sucks at using the proper procedures for any kind of disciplinary action. They ignore steps, they treat folks differently, they play favorites. If you let them get away with it even once, even if it is for something egregious, then, as you mention, a precedent is set.

    There’s taht famous scene in the move A Man For All Seasons:

    William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
    Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
    William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
    Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ’round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!

    Right wingers, of course, love pointing out examples of unions defending obvious bad guys and just talk over any attempt to point out why it happens.

  4. 4.

    Soonergrunt

    April 3, 2014 at 3:36 pm

    @low-tech cyclist: Thanks! Fixed.

  5. 5.

    raven

    April 3, 2014 at 3:41 pm

    A talking head said that someone in his situation as far as PTSD/TBI would not be allowed access to a weapon on post but can go downtown and buy one. Is that correct?

    eta Actually I know the answer but I thought it might be clarifying for others.

  6. 6.

    raven

    April 3, 2014 at 3:43 pm

    Article about a union and Southwest Airlines.

    Southwest’s jovial corporate culture was always held up as a model but recent negotiations paint the airline in a lesser light

  7. 7.

    Paul in KY

    April 3, 2014 at 3:43 pm

    I appreciate your instructor’s explanation. Maybe you can set a record for longest time at steward before you get the inevitable ‘discipline’.

  8. 8.

    CONGRATULATIONS!

    April 3, 2014 at 3:46 pm

    Right wingers, of course, love pointing out examples of unions defending obvious bad guys and just talk over any attempt to point out why it happens.

    @Groucho48: My wife is a site rep at her job (school). My neighbor, who has known her for more than a decade, is convinced that her only duty is to insure that pedophiles stay employed.

    I explained to him that her job was to insure that anyone who was accused of anything had their rights respected, and was subject to due process. Well, turns out Republicans have no use for either constitutional rights not of the Second Amendment variety, and nothing but contempt for due process.

    If he wants to put his kids in the provably inferior private school, and he does, well, more power to him. I give up.

  9. 9.

    daninNYC

    April 3, 2014 at 3:49 pm

    Worldvision has reported that 10,000 third-world children lost their sponsorships because of their decision to hire employees in same sex marriages. Sickening.

  10. 10.

    Another Holocene Human

    April 3, 2014 at 3:49 pm

    @Groucho48: Yes. And this goes for criminal law as well. People can’t see this because they let themselves be ruled by fear.

  11. 11.

    Paul in KY

    April 3, 2014 at 3:50 pm

    @CONGRATULATIONS!: So he has known her for 10+ years, and ends up convinced she is a knowing pedophile-enabler (and/or protector).

    Nice neighbor you have there.

  12. 12.

    otmar

    April 3, 2014 at 3:51 pm

    fyi, a German activist on the current trade discussions between the US and Europe has been denied entry to the US: https://www.unwatched.org/20140403_USA_verweigern_TTIP_und_NSA-Aktivistin_die_Einreise?pk_campaign=twun&pk_kwd=20140403

  13. 13.

    Another Holocene Human

    April 3, 2014 at 3:52 pm

    @CONGRATULATIONS!: Ha, remember “The Children’s Hour”?

    It turns out “Where there’s smoke there’s fire” is not a universal truth.

  14. 14.

    Soonergrunt

    April 3, 2014 at 3:52 pm

    @raven: That is correct, because while on-Post, he’d have to keep his personally owned weapons in the unit arms room, the off-Post law enforcement is under no requirement to enforce that, and he would be subject to Texas’ very lax gun laws. So he could, like the Luby’s Cafeteria shooter, and Nidal Hassan, procure a firearm very easily.

  15. 15.

    raven

    April 3, 2014 at 3:54 pm

    @Soonergrunt: Seems like he bought the piece at the same place as Hassan.

  16. 16.

    Roger Moore

    April 3, 2014 at 3:55 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    People can’t see this because they let themselves be ruled by fear.

    One kind of fear, but not another. They’re afraid of becoming the victim of a crime, but not of being accused of one.

  17. 17.

    ? Martin

    April 3, 2014 at 3:56 pm

    So, just walked past a bunch of striking workers. Tip to the steward: “Fuck you, pay us!” isn’t an effective chant to get management to the table, nor to build sympathy from those around you. It’s a little blunt and a little entitled, considering they left out why they aren’t being paid or aren’t being paid enough. That matters.

  18. 18.

    The Other Bob

    April 3, 2014 at 3:57 pm

    I am “management” in Civil Service. I support the CS system and unionization so politicians don’t run amok with firings and appointing cronies.

    I am VERY pro-union, but from time-to-time I have some issues with the way my unionized employees are represented. Unfortunately I am often the target of what I call frivolous grievances. The way it works in my state, either an individual or a steward on behalf of the union as a whole can file a grievance – often without ANY evidence – and I or my managers have to show up for arbitration. I always win because they have always been BS. This is a real time waste and morale killer because we usually have to provide evidence to refute a false allegation.
    The vast majority of my unionized team are serious and hard working. I WANT them the ability to grieve a real issue, but so few of the grievances are real, I feel their needs to be some changes to the contract.

    I would be careful with fighting everything. The best and most successful union Reps seem to be able to have the “come to Jesus talk” with bad employees from time to time. This often saves their butts from fighting discipline they won’t win. I had an employee who would not come to work sober. Finally his union rep. told him he would be better offer retiring instead of running the risk of getting fired and losing some benefits. He did everyone a huge favor.

  19. 19.

    CONGRATULATIONS!

    April 3, 2014 at 3:57 pm

    So he has known her for 10+ years, and ends up convinced she is a knowing pedophile-enabler (and/or protector).

    Nice neighbor you have there.

    @Paul in KY: He was. He has become remarkably less friendly as of late since we had our dog put down. Not sure WTF that is all about.

  20. 20.

    Comrade Dread

    April 3, 2014 at 3:58 pm

    @daninNYC: I imagine a lot of folks are proud at getting World Vision to do that 180.

    And then they’ll continue to wonder why non-Christians look down on their faith and why church attendance in general is in decline.

  21. 21.

    Comrade Dread

    April 3, 2014 at 3:59 pm

    What the fuck is wrong with this country when a mass shooting could be described as ‘garden variety’ anything?

    America decided as a nation that it would rather live with the regular sacrifice of innocent men and women that inconvenience a gun owner with laws that might stop the sacrifice.

  22. 22.

    ? Martin

    April 3, 2014 at 3:59 pm

    A note about that personality disorder–Military doctors have been known to diagnose PTSD/TBI victims in the past as having preexisting personality disorders in order to discharge them from the service quickly without eligibility for pension.

    Back in 1945, VA doctors did that for different reasons. The military wouldn’t treat PTSD so they diagnosed them as schizophrenic, which allowed them to be treated. That would have been my grandfather and others like him. My grandmother, being a military nurse, knew the drill and understood the diagnosis. That sort of thing is done outside of the military as well in order to get insurers to cover things that they normally wouldn’t cover.

  23. 23.

    Another Holocene Human

    April 3, 2014 at 4:00 pm

    @raven:

    The airline hopes to call on part-timers during periods of unusually high activity, she says: “Current part-time legacy work limitations severely constrain how we could further optimize our network and schedules to better match our customers’ desires.”

    Well, they’re screwed. The bean counter CEO is going to destroy everything the founder built up and turn Southwest into another AA or Continental.

    So, who are these people who only get called up to work at peak times? How do they live the rest of the time? Are they retirees on social security who can only make so many hours? Or kids living in Momma’s home who really have their heart set on a full time job? This kind of nonsense just DOES NOT WORK.

    Okay okay, so you have a pool of slaves who comes in to work at peak times. WHERE DO YOUR PLANES COME FROM?! Yeah, cuz you can’t skip out on capital investments. Or are you renting shit from someone else? It’s peak time, why would they rent to you? Give them an offer they can’t refuse? Liability?

    No, you gotta pay for those slots in the airport ALL YEAR. You have to pay for that airplane ALL YEAR. So how the fuck much did you save by using casual labor? Actually, you lost in that “goodwill” column that beancounters never seem to understand. Because these shitty pickup employees harm your bottom line. Sometimes occasional pleasure travelers become hardcore business travelers. And if they had a bad experience with your airline 5 years ago on Memorial Day they might go with the competition. Since Southwest is NOT the cheapest they actually have to sell that they’re providing more value and you can’t do that if you’re providing shitty customer service.

    What a FUCKING moron.

  24. 24.

    Another Holocene Human

    April 3, 2014 at 4:02 pm

    @daninNYC: Well they never got a dime from me because I always assumed that Christian 3rd world charities were a scam or, worse, a cover for the worst kind of proselytizing.

  25. 25.

    CONGRATULATIONS!

    April 3, 2014 at 4:03 pm

    The best and most successful union Reps seem to be able to have the “come to Jesus talk” with bad employees from time to time.

    @The Other Bob: I understand why you would feel this way – trust me, I’ve seen what you describe happen and it truly does – but that “come to Jesus” talk can open you up to enormous legal liability when the employee inevitably does something stupid and gets canned anyway. The union – well, my wife’s union – explicitly forbids such talks. If that talk is to come, it has to come from HR, not the union. And that sucks for you guys.

  26. 26.

    Elmo

    April 3, 2014 at 4:03 pm

    Timely post, at least for me – I’m currently on a break in union negotiations for a new CBA. Management rep, of course, but I do my best to bargain fairly and to ensure that things like fair distribution of overtime, no yanking back hours later in the week to prevent overtime, and basic decency like show-up pay gets put in the deal. OTOH there are other things I can’t ever agree to because we have to run our business. No union veto on shift schedules, for example.

    I tend to get to yes pretty quickly, just treating people with respect.

  27. 27.

    Soonergrunt

    April 3, 2014 at 4:04 pm

    @The Other Bob: To be sure, that’s where we want to be. Our local right now is in the process of dealing with several years of very anti-labor and specifically anti-union management. The Chief Steward said that a big part of her job is telling employees facing discipline that they have to admit what they did was wrong and accept discipline. The fight is to ensure that the discipline is consistent with the law, agency regulations, the master agreement, and other comparable offenses.

  28. 28.

    feebog

    April 3, 2014 at 4:08 pm

    Ok, full disclosure here, I am a Labor Arbitrator with an emphasis on public sector issues. Before that I was a Labor Relations Rep for over 15 years and before that a Union Steward, Local President, and Local Business Agent. In other words, I have been on both sides of the table and I am now a neutral. Let me tell you there is a wide range of views with public sector unions regarding disciplinary matters. Some pursue almost every discipline, no matter the merits, others are selective in the cases they take to arbitration. But Unions also have a legal obligation to represent, and they sometimes take “losers” all the way rather than risk getting sued by the employee for failure to represent.

  29. 29.

    Laertes

    April 3, 2014 at 4:09 pm

    Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO (link)

  30. 30.

    Another Holocene Human

    April 3, 2014 at 4:10 pm

    @CONGRATULATIONS!: It depends on the industry, what kind of involvement the union has in hiring, if any, because historically some craft unions had control over hiring which gave them enforcement power over shitty workers (also enabled sex and racial discrimination). An arbitrator once told me that you never want to give a grievant the “do this and you’ll get fired” speech as a union rep because a) they won’t believe you, since they didn’t hear it from management and b) the politics of it suck. Make management do their job and spell that shit out for them.

    But that doesn’t mean you can’t tell someone with disciplinary problems to watch themselves and explain to them in detail what progressive discipline is and where they are at with it.

    Sometimes you can save face by getting the grievant to admit to “the real problem” and come up with a plan with management reps to address that to avoid a disciplinary step. Example, “well, I have a lot of stress at home since my wife died and maybe I’ve been drinking too much” – “okay, here’s the EAP card, sorry to hear about that buddy, we’re here to support you”. Then management feels like they’ve gotten the gold star from their management development classes, see?

  31. 31.

    CONGRATULATIONS!

    April 3, 2014 at 4:10 pm

    But Unions also have a legal obligation to represent, and they sometimes take “losers” all the way rather than risk getting sued by the employee for failure to represent.

    @feebog: This right here is why you do not have the “come to Jesus” talk with your members. They very rarely think that they’ve done anything wrong. Or flat out do not care.

  32. 32.

    ? Martin

    April 3, 2014 at 4:12 pm

    @raven:

    A talking head said that someone in his situation as far as PTSD/TBI would not be allowed access to a weapon on post but can go downtown and buy one. Is that correct?

    Probably depends on the state. CA is trying to rein in weapons access to people with a diagnosis, but I think we’re the only state actually trying. The military is much more strict with who can and can’t have access than the State of Texas is.

  33. 33.

    Another Holocene Human

    April 3, 2014 at 4:13 pm

    @feebog:

    But Unions also have a legal obligation to represent, and they sometimes take “losers” all the way rather than risk getting sued by the employee for failure to represent.

    Taking losers is more politics or because they believe there’s a bigger union recognition issue that they want/need to win. Because there is no Duty of Fair Representation for a case without merit.

    Sometimes taking losers to arbitration is just a tactic for achieving broader goals, also, too.

  34. 34.

    AnneW

    April 3, 2014 at 4:13 pm

    “It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays.”

  35. 35.

    ? Martin

    April 3, 2014 at 4:16 pm

    @AnneW: Pff. Minimum wage. Just borrow (another) $20,000 from your parents and start a business.

    See, paying your way through college is easy.

  36. 36.

    daninNYC

    April 3, 2014 at 4:18 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Actually I am one of those who started sponsoring a child when I heard they were losing sponsors. Worldvision isn’t a scam and they don’t do heavy proselytizing. They are concerned about providing food and provisions and are fairly well respected outside of the evangelical community.

    Though they reversed their stand, I won’t drop my sponsorship because I care about the child more than the policies of the org.

  37. 37.

    Roger Moore

    April 3, 2014 at 4:18 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    So, who are these people who only get called up to work at peak times? How do they live the rest of the time? Are they retirees on social security who can only make so many hours? Or kids living in Momma’s home who really have their heart set on a full time job?

    Class warfare is like any other kind of warfare: it’s much easier when you dehumanize the enemy. Converting those actual human beings into a bunch of numbers on a spreadsheet is vitally important to the overall effort to crush them.

  38. 38.

    Villago Delenda Est

    April 3, 2014 at 4:19 pm

    @CONGRATULATIONS!:

    Well, turns out Republicans have no use for either constitutional rights not of the Second Amendment variety

    I find this shocking.

    Of course, I was really surprised when I found myself wet after taking a shower.

  39. 39.

    Villago Delenda Est

    April 3, 2014 at 4:22 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Actually, you lost in that “goodwill” column that beancounters never seem to understand.

    This is because Excel has no space in any of its boxes for it.

  40. 40.

    Villago Delenda Est

    April 3, 2014 at 4:24 pm

    @Elmo:

    just treating people with respect.

    There’s your problem, right there.

  41. 41.

    Villago Delenda Est

    April 3, 2014 at 4:25 pm

    @daninNYC: Suffer the little children.

  42. 42.

    Trollhattan

    April 3, 2014 at 4:27 pm

    This is going to put a serious dent in congregation recruitment.

    A California man remains missing a day after he was swept out to sea during an ocean baptism.

    Benito Flores, 43, was among several people helping his cousin, Pastor Maurigro Cervantes, baptise a man near the Guadalupe Dunes Preserve north of Santa Barbara. Two others were swept out by a huge wave but were able to swim to shore.

    The US Coast Guard says the search for Mr Flores was called off at midnight on Sunday.

    The baptism was just finishing up at 10:00 local time (17:00 GMT) on Sunday when the church members were hit by the wave.

    “A big wave came and took Benito,” Mr Cervantes told local broadcaster KEYT. “I tried to take him out, he was heavy and then another big wave came.”

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-26823842

  43. 43.

    feebog

    April 3, 2014 at 4:27 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Taking losers is more politics or because they believe there’s a bigger union recognition issue that they want/need to win. Because there is no Duty of Fair Representation for a case without merit.

    But employee’s rarely understand that, and that goes double for the ones who work their way up the progressive discipline ladder. And I know plenty of Union advocates who would rather take a loser to arbitration than deal with a “fair representation” charge, even if it is bogus.

  44. 44.

    Roger Moore

    April 3, 2014 at 4:29 pm

    @Trollhattan:
    It’s all God’s will. Wow, God’s an asshole!

  45. 45.

    SatanicPanic

    April 3, 2014 at 4:29 pm

    @? Martin: Wow, there are some real keepers in the comments on that article.

    They came for the guns of convicted felons. I didn’t protest, because I wasn’t a convicted felon.
    …
    Then they came for MY guns, and there was no one left to protest for me.

    Oh lord

  46. 46.

    JPL

    April 3, 2014 at 4:33 pm

    OT… Good news

    A little over a week after becoming chief executive of Mozilla, Brendan Eich is stepping down after an intense debate over his belief that gays should not be allowed to marry. After h is appointment as the company’s new chief, Mr. Eich came under heavy fire from employees and the public for making a $1,000 contribution in 2008 to support a ban on gay marriage in California under Proposition 8.

    must credit the nytimes…

  47. 47.

    Roger Moore

    April 3, 2014 at 4:33 pm

    @SatanicPanic:

    Then they came for MY guns, and there was no one left to protest for me.

    And I didn’t have the balls to shoot it out with police, the way I always said people with guns were supposed to do when jackbooted thugs came to take them. If your guns aren’t good enough to defend the Second Amendment, what makes you think they’re good enough to defend all the other liberties you’re supposed to be using them to protect?

  48. 48.

    Kay

    April 3, 2014 at 4:35 pm

    I completed my Steward training yesterday.

    Yay Sooner!

    They told me that we’re going to lose a lot more often than we win. I can accept that.

    Such a liar :)

    You’ll be dying each and every time.

  49. 49.

    SatanicPanic

    April 3, 2014 at 4:38 pm

    @Roger Moore: Stop trying to take away my liberty to defend our liberties doesn’t make for a very good bumper sticker.

  50. 50.

    CONGRATULATIONS!

    April 3, 2014 at 4:40 pm

    Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO (link)

    @Laertes: The dudebro contingent over at Ars is apoplectic. Because if he can lose his job for this, then they can…

  51. 51.

    Elizabelle

    April 3, 2014 at 4:41 pm

    @SatanicPanic:

    It’s hard to come up with a “trolls! Come on down!” headline better than

    California Seizes Guns as Owners Lose Right to Keep Arms

    which is what Bloomberg ran with.

    2,980 comments and still frothing.

    Gist of the story:

    California is the only state that tracks and disarms people with legally registered guns who have lost the right to own them, according to Attorney General Kamala Harris. Almost 20,000 gun owners in the state are prohibited from possessing firearms, including convicted felons, those under a domestic violence restraining order or deemed mentally unstable.

    … As many as 200,000 people nationwide may no longer be qualified to own firearms, according to Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis. Other states may lack confiscation programs because they don’t track purchases as closely as California, which requires most weapons sales go through a licensed dealer and be reported.

    NRA spokescritter declined to comment. Story’s from March 2013.

  52. 52.

    Roger Moore

    April 3, 2014 at 4:42 pm

    @SatanicPanic:
    I think they’ve forgotten that there are other liberties to defend beyond the Second Amendment, and they lack the commitment they claim to have to use their guns to fight for liberty when they see their rights being infringed.

  53. 53.

    ranchandsyrup

    April 3, 2014 at 4:42 pm

    serious (i think) question that was asked at a group lunch today: “Did Obama name Obamacare after himself? I read that somewhere online that he’s arrogant.” I missed a great chance to do a spit take.

  54. 54.

    Another Holocene Human

    April 3, 2014 at 4:47 pm

    @feebog: Well, if you are talking about the Grievant From Hell, $1000 to have an arbitrator place his or her magic imprimatur on said demon spawn’s termination paperwork is probably peace of mind cheaply bought.

    But when a union is taking EVERY case to arbitration it says something different. Usually something not-too-good going on inside the union, frankly.

    And I have met union leaders who think they can actually take sure-losers to arbitration and win, cause they’re militant and they’re arrogant and eventually, they will be broken over the wheel of that arrogance because the arbitrator just. don’t. care.

    @feebog: Should’ve read this post earlier. Glad to get your perspective.

  55. 55.

    SatanicPanic

    April 3, 2014 at 4:48 pm

    @Elizabelle: Every gun post there ends up that way. They hate Bloomberg and I imagine there’s an intern at the NRA whose sole job is to retweet gun related stories to the crazies. I spend waaaay too much time there mocking them. It’s a bad habit that I wish I could kick.

  56. 56.

    Another Holocene Human

    April 3, 2014 at 4:48 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    California is the only state that tracks and disarms people with legally registered guns who have lost the right to own them, according to Attorney General Kamala Harris.

    1 down, 49 to go, imo.

  57. 57.

    Another Holocene Human

    April 3, 2014 at 4:53 pm

    They say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

    Say you make a conscious decisions to take every fucking discipline case to arbitration. And management doesn’t change at all, keeps fucking up the process, keeps doing whatever the fuck they want, etc etc.

    Okay, so you’re public sector. Ya can’t walk out in a ULP strike.

    But there are MORE FUCKING TACTICS OUT THERE. You didn’t get what you wanted, it’s two years later TRY SOMETHING NEW FOR GOD’S SAKE.

    Labor Notes is always going on about this, for good reason.

  58. 58.

    Another Holocene Human

    April 3, 2014 at 4:57 pm

    @Elmo:

    no yanking back hours later in the week to prevent overtime

    What industry are you in? I thought this kind of practice was forbidden by FLSA. Unless you drive things for a living.

  59. 59.

    Soonergrunt

    April 3, 2014 at 4:57 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: I didn’t say we take everything to arbitration. We fight the discipline process, but arbitration is another matter entirely because that’s costing us money.
    I should have been more clear.

  60. 60.

    Another Holocene Human

    April 3, 2014 at 4:59 pm

    @Soonergrunt: Er, that wasn’t directed at you, Sooner. Just seen other locals in my own union fall into this trap.

    And yes, you are too right that it costs money. Sometimes you have to think the union members themselves are insane to tolerate being assessed like that over and over for some asshole who probably screws them at work too, yet I guess once they have paid the assessment it’s all sunk cost fallacy and they REALLY can’t back down now.

    Just like doctors pay all this malpractice insurance for the less than 10% of the doctors generating all the claims. If only there were an independent state board who could revoke the licenses of bad doctors? Nahhhh. Would never work.

  61. 61.

    Belafon

    April 3, 2014 at 5:02 pm

    @SatanicPanic: yeah, cause the convicted felon is going to protest with you.

  62. 62.

    Elizabelle

    April 3, 2014 at 5:05 pm

    Whoa. WaPost profile of Ivan Lopez, yesterday’s Fort Hood shooter.

    Not at all what you might have guessed. Former police officer from Puerto Rico and percussionist in a military band, father of four young kids. His mother’s death last year affected him deeply.

    Described as introverted, musical, calm, not a fighter.

  63. 63.

    Elizabelle

    April 3, 2014 at 5:06 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    I love Attorney General Kamala Harris and Governor Jerry Brown. Both doing an excellent job.

    More like them, please.

  64. 64.

    Another Holocene Human

    April 3, 2014 at 5:07 pm

    @The Other Bob: But how can you change that in the contract? The membership of that union are going to have to toss some stewards, maybe even the president. So the best way to change things would be to support union democracy. And maybe that would mean allowing the union to meet on premises and make it easy to run union elections. This means that more rank and file will participate and this puts pressure on shitty or corrupt or incompetent union leaders.

    Also, and this is really underhanded, you can really f@ck a union leader in the eyes of their members by walking past them and going into closed door meetings with the steward all the time, acting like you are best friends, you know, playing up a notion that that steward is just so close to management to where the rank and file actually distrust that person. But since this is a stupid grade school tactic it could also backfire. Just saying, it’s not infeasible to do something like this.

    A really venal union steward can be removed by offering him/her a rubber room management position (but one they think is more money AND more power). Just remember, this is called union busting for a reason. Sometimes even a crap steward with experience is better than no steward at all.

  65. 65.

    ? Martin

    April 3, 2014 at 5:08 pm

    @Trollhattan:

    This is going to put a serious dent in congregation recruitment.

    It’s all in the marketing.

    Swept out and drown: FAIL
    Sea-raptured: WIN

  66. 66.

    Trollhattan

    April 3, 2014 at 5:11 pm

    @? Martin:

    Horizontal Enrapturment ™

  67. 67.

    ? Martin

    April 3, 2014 at 5:13 pm

    One of my Senators is slowly redeeming herself.

    In all, the committee came to 20 conclusions about the CIA’s harsh interrogation tactics after spending six years and $40 million evaluating the controversial program. Its report expected to be sent Thursday to the White House and CIA for eventual public release.

    The committee’s other findings included:

    _ Critics inside the agency were cut out of the debate over the program or ignored and the news media were manipulated with leaks that tended to blunt criticism of the agency.

    _ While the CIA’s high-level officials mismanaged the program, interrogators who crossed the line into abusive behavior went unpunished.

    _ Even six months after the spy agency received the legal authority to proceed, its officers remained unprepared for interrogating detainees.

    The committee voted 11-3 on Thursday to recommend that the key findings and a summary of the report be declassified. The document now goes to President Barack Obama, who’s said he supports declassifying the findings. Most of the report and the underlying CIA documents might remain secret, however.

    Congress is doing something right, so credit where it’s due. Someone tell Cole to go blow Snowden again. He’s earned it.

  68. 68.

    Elizabelle

    April 3, 2014 at 5:14 pm

    @? Martin:

    Claimed by God and the Sea

    Enraptured by the Ocean

  69. 69.

    Elizabelle

    April 3, 2014 at 5:17 pm

    Culture round up this afternoon:

    David Letterman announces he’ll retire in 2015.

    Gabriel Garcia Marquez hospitalized, possibly for pneumonia, a month after his 87th birthday.

    One of these gentlemen holds a Nobel Prize.

  70. 70.

    Trollhattan

    April 3, 2014 at 5:21 pm

    Speaking of labor and such.

    On a party-line vote, the [CA State] Assembly on Thursday affirmed a union-backed resolution urging lawmakers to resist contracting out public services.

    The non-binding resolution stipulates that the Assembly “opposes outsourcing of public services and assets.” Assemblyman Jimmy Gomez, D-Los Angeles, the measure’s author, said public entities can cloud an otherwise open process when they contract out work, and warned outsourcing can lead to “rubber-stamped” contract awards with no discussion.

    “Over the years, outsourcing has left taxpayers without transparency or accountability to where the taxpayer money is being used,” said Gomez.

    But opponents, including a number of Republicans who decried the measure, said it skews the contracting process by limiting choices that can drive down costs to the benefit of voters. Assemblyman Don Wagner, R-Irvine, urged his colleagues to “stand for free competition,” a message echoed by other critics.

    “We represent all the residents of this state, not just public workers,” said Assemblyman Curt Hagman, R-Chino Hills.

    The measure passed 42-22, with several Democrats refusing to vote.

    Before the vote, business and local government organizations rallied against the measure, saying it would constrain their decisions and strain budgets. That a legally non-binding resolution caused such consternation demonstrated the issue’s potentially broad impact.

    http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2014/04/anti-outsourcing-resolution-passes-california-assembly.html#storylink=cpy

    Republicans getting their knickers in a twist over a non-binding resolution. Typical.

  71. 71.

    JPL

    April 3, 2014 at 5:25 pm

    @Elizabelle: I found his books so lyrical and mystical and that is after they were translated. Reading the spanish version was not an option for me though.

  72. 72.

    MomSense

    April 3, 2014 at 5:36 pm

    @ Soonergrunt

    The shooter is described as a Veteran of a recent Iraq tour who never saw hostile action and was apparently a truck driver.

    It is too early to speculate about what happened but I do want to say that having worked with several veterans of the Iraq War who were truck drivers who are now dealing with PTSD, there is not a clear cut distinction between combat and non combat. Supply routes were constant targets for IEDs and consequently there are a number of truck drivers who had horrific experiences. I hope we can all try to just wait for more information. I am not at allexcusing or condoning or justifying what he did and I am heartbroken for everyone involved. It is my hope that we can learn from this and be as supportive as possible to all those caught up in this tragedy.

  73. 73.

    Elizabelle

    April 3, 2014 at 5:40 pm

    @JPL:

    Yeah, time to exercise the attention span and sit down again with some of his work. Been a long time, and he is a treasure.

  74. 74.

    Anton Sirius

    April 3, 2014 at 6:02 pm

    @Comrade Dread:

    America decided as a nation that it would rather live with the regular sacrifice of innocent men and women that inconvenience a gun owner with laws that might stop the sacrifice.

    The pansies of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of innocents. – Thomas Jeffersonish

  75. 75.

    Mnemosyne

    April 3, 2014 at 6:05 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    That does tend to make me lean towards possible closed head injury — those can cause huge changes in personality. Either that, or a major depression gone untreated too long.

  76. 76.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    April 3, 2014 at 6:17 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    The bean counter CEO is going to destroy everything the founder built up and turn Southwest into another AA or Continental.

    As an aspiring bean counter, you have this wrong. No one lets the accountants make any decisions. All we do is total up the assets, liabilities, revenues, and expenses and show them to the executives. They make the decisions and they very rarely have actual bean counting training.

    One of the things that got emphasized in a lot of my accounting classes (particularly at the master’s level) was that there are a lot of costs and benefits that you can’t quantify and that you shouldn’t pretend just because they’re not in the spreadsheet that they don’t matter. I get the feeling that executives come out of programs that don’t get around to this part.

  77. 77.

    ruemara

    April 3, 2014 at 6:21 pm

    @ranchandsyrup: did you roll your eyes so hard they fell out of your head? ‘Cos I did.

  78. 78.

    Avery Greynold

    April 3, 2014 at 6:25 pm

    Regarding your inevitable discipline: My experience was that most union stewards were those with discipline issues prior to becoming stewards. As for you, where you once might have conducted yourself according to what seems reasonable, now you are obligated to strictly conform to the union position in disputed situations. That makes discipline inevitable. And yes, they may screw you over too.

  79. 79.

    Soonergrunt

    April 3, 2014 at 6:32 pm

    @MomSense: Absolutely. I agree with this 100%.

  80. 80.

    Just One More Canuck

    April 3, 2014 at 6:39 pm

    @Roger Moore: and Jesus thinks you’re a jerk – Frank Zappa

  81. 81.

    Ronzoni Rigatoni

    April 3, 2014 at 7:00 pm

    Having represented two (later one) locals for over 18 years as Chapter President and later Chief Steward (to avoid having to take popular positions which were not valid), we “solved” the problem of non-membership by charging the accused party union dues from the date of his/her employment. Otherwise, I would assign a rookie to their case. Since they all knew (over 750 members) that I won over 90% of MY cases, the money was always forthcoming. I always insisted on arbitration in disciplinary cases because I was certain that management always screwed up, at least procedurally, to the extent that this proved fatal to their position (KNOW backwards and forwards the agency personnel management manual as well as the Department PM). Agency lawyers do not do this. It remains a source of pride that I handled cases both for bargaining unit employees as well as (under-the-table) managers with a huge degree of success. This included our Internal Affairs office who informed me whenever there was a disciplinary case against me (I always had “enemies” LOL). On my retirement, I told 2 of my favorite IA Agents (over many drinks) that of the 18 major disciplinary cases against me over the years (most of which I was unaware of), that I was GUILTY THE WHOLE TIME!

  82. 82.

    feebog

    April 3, 2014 at 7:02 pm

    @Avery Greynold:

    Regarding your inevitable discipline: My experience was that most union stewards were those with discipline issues prior to becoming stewards. As for you, where you once might have conducted yourself according to what seems reasonable, now you are obligated to strictly conform to the union position in disputed situations. That makes discipline inevitable. And yes, they may screw you over too.

    I disagree with this. Yes, some employees become Stewards because of past discipline, fairly meted out or not. In my experience, which now spans 45 years, those who become Stewards as a means of self-preservation usually make crappy Stewards. Also I don’t think it is inevitable that becoming a Steward will result in discipline. It certainly sounds to me that there is a big problem in Sooner’s VA if that is the norm rather than the exception. Yes, you have to strictly follow work rules and procedures as a Steward, but that is a two edged sword, you do it both for self protection and to set an example.

  83. 83.

    Ronzoni Rigatoni

    April 3, 2014 at 7:27 pm

    @feebog: It helps to be exceptionally good at your “real” job. The agency had no complaints re my job performance as I knew more than the managers. That was never a problem. Towards the end, I worked as an agency-paid full-time union representative and they lost every case trying to get me to work for them LOL.

  84. 84.

    Bob In Portland

    April 3, 2014 at 8:23 pm

    When I worked at the VA Hospital in SF in the mid-seventies I can’t remember anyone even mentioning a union. After five years I went to the Post Office in San Francisco and man was it different there. I ended up being a shop steward for twenty years, with a couple of terms as an officer.

    It can be rough work, especially if you have assholes for bosses (and the Post Office developed a special hiring program to only promote sociopaths), so expect some discouraging days along the way.

    One short story. When I was an officer a guy came in and plopped in the chair in my office and said, “I can’t stand the pressure. I’m afraid I’m going to get a gun and go into work one day and start shooting.”

    After I spent a half hour trying to calm him down and explaining how committing murder generally fucks up your plans for the future he still kept shaking his head and talking about shooting.

    Finally, I said, “Look, don’t do it. But if you do it only shoot the guys wearing ties.”

  85. 85.

    JGabriel

    April 4, 2014 at 6:59 am

    Soonergrunt @ Top:

    What the fuck is wrong with this country when a mass shooting could be described as ‘garden variety’ anything?

    Conservatives.

  86. 86.

    brantl

    April 4, 2014 at 9:08 am

    But we do fight the discipline process all the way to the decision point every single time for all employees.

    If you’re backing someone that you know that they did exactly what they’re said to have done, and it is entirely in the wrong, this is building an unnecessarily adverserial relationship, where it need not exist. You can’t really justify that.

  87. 87.

    Paul in KY

    April 7, 2014 at 8:09 am

    @CONGRATULATIONS!: Hope things get better for you & wife.

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