I’ve been following the Bundy ranch story for a few days (per the many posts here), but I hadn’t realized just how clearcut the dispute is. I almost can’t believe that the Teahadists have made this a hill to die on:
For decades, Cliven Bundy’s cattle have grazed on land near his Nevada ranch. But in 1993, the Bureau of Land Management increased its restrictions on grazing — in part to protect the then-endangered desert tortoise — and required Bundy to pay a fee if he wanted to keep grazing on federal land.
But Bundy simply refused to pay, and kept his cattle grazing there anyway. (He decided to submit a check to the county government instead, in protest of the feds, but the county returned it because of lack of jurisdiction.) In response, the federal government fined him, and he wouldn’t pay that either. He now owes $1 million in unpaid fees and fines, according to the BLM.
The case wound through various courts for 20 years, and Bundy has lost several times, but refused to comply with court orders to remove his cattle from the government lands.
The guy’s just been mooching off the federal teat for 20 years, refusing to pay the fees that others map to have their graze on federal land. Now, the government is trying to make him pay. I understand DIRTY HIPPIES LOVE DESERT TORTOISES, but he’s not being evicted, just forced to pay a fee to use land he doesn’t own.
Amazing.
Citizen_X
He’s a freeloading piece of shit. I don’t have a scrap of sympathy for this punk, or his screechy family, or the felonious assholes who show up to aim rifles at federal agents.
PsiFighter37
What a welfare queen
Greg
I grew up in the West and guys like this crop up all over. They believe that they have the right to graze, drive or pasture anyplace they like, based on some vague claim that “their family has been doing it” for a zillion years. They do not respect any local, county, state or federal law. They cut across or use the private property of others because it is their “right”. AND they are all moochers that accept every type of subsidy but refuse to pay their taxers. They are thieves and liars and they cause all kinds of problems all through Utah, Nevada and the Central Valley of California.
evolved beyond the fist mistermix
It’s hard to overstate how politically unsophisticated these “sovereign citizens” are – they just won’t pay taxes or fees to the government. The reason why is pretty convoluted but if you ignore the bullshit that comes out of their pieholes and just look at the end result, it’s always a pass from responsibilities everyone else takes for granted.
ellie
Yes, this fucker is stealing from all of us. He’s a moocher.
Cacti
Glenn Beck and Tucker Carlson have even told their followers caveat emptor with Bundy, but the mob isn’t listening.
Zifnab25
Is it possible that when Fred Phelps died, his ghost simply reincarnated as another cantankerous old man whose sole purpose in life was to be an asshole to others?
Linda Featheringill
And I thought that the main issue was that women need to be shot first.
Hmmph.
Snarki, child of Loki
@Greg: “They believe that they have the right to graze, drive or pasture anyplace they like, based on some vague claim that “their family has been doing it” for a zillion years”
Hey, if their family wants to graze, no problem.
Just keep yer damn cows on yer own damn land.
JDM
I just paid my federal taxes the day before yesterday. I’d agree to a tax increase if it went toward enforcing the collection of taxes and fees from these deadbeats.
Tommy
I’ve read hours and hours about this topic. As I’ve said not sure why, but I can’t pull away. I think mostly because I am a huge hiker/camper and lover of Federal lands (National Parks at the top of the list). The BLM could NOT have been more kind and forgiving to this man. In fact I think they were too kind. Court judgement vs. court judgement he lost. He has never won a single one.
Did you know that the BLM only wants to charge him $1.35/head per month (according to Reuters)!!!!!!!!!! Seems like a deal to me. I’d think feed for cattle costs more than that. Also from the pics, seems they have access to water as well. It begs the question outside of vet fees, does he pay nothing to water and feed his cattle?
In the last court case in 2008 they dropped the hammer on him. Told him to REMOVE your cattle from Federal lands. Know what he did, he EXPANDED the area they were using.
This guy is an asshat. Glad the BLM pulled back for now. No need for an armed confrontation. But at some point the government needs to respond in a massive way, or what stops everybody else, 16,000 pay for grazing fees each year, the rest of them will do the same.
I should also note the Nevada Cattle Ranchers Association is against this man. I will leave it at that.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cacti: Well, their fans are dumbshits. Serious dumbshits.
ranchandsyrup
He claims he has “ancestral” rights because he is a
Shoshonewhite person.Higgs Boson's Mate
@Tommy:
Not sure what the answer is for the fed this time. I am concerned that if Bundy gets away with it every wingnut in America will refuse to pay their taxes on the grounds that they can make the gov go away by just waving a gun.
Baud
In the federal land management system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the land managers, who impose subsidized grazing fees; and the federal marshals, who collect them from deadbeat wingnut ranchers. These are their stories.
Law & Order: BLM
NCSteve
@Greg: On the upside, these were the people who used to hire killers to shoot farmers for putting up fences. At least we got that under control.
kindness
I want free gas for my car & I want a free Ferrari FF while I’m at it because my ancestors came here in the 1600’s. See I can one up Bundy.
MattR
Only semi off topic, but if you want to do your part to help endangered tortoises, please stop releasing helium balloons into the air. They actually do come back to earth somewhere and wildlife, including tortoises, will ingest them.
jonas
@ranchandsyrup: Exactly. If he wants to have a discussion about having sovereign rights to this land based on the fact that his family has been there for a long time, I’m sure there’s some folks from the Shoshone nation who would like to engage with him on that.
Gene108
Following this and references to Ruby Ridge and Waco there is (and seems to be long standing) nexus between your average wing-nut/bigot and the really crazy right-wingers, who want to hurt people.
They all talk in the same sort of “government is tyranny” and “guns protect my freedom from the government” mantras.
I am just not sure, if the average wing-nut realizes he is feeding the fantasies of the next McVeigh-Rudolph wannabe.
Villago Delenda Est
@Baud: CLANG CLANG!
Higgs Boson's Mate
@kindness:
One of my ancestors landed here in the early 1600’s as well. But, I want a damned Ferrari F40.
kc
LMAO!
kc
To sum up the wingnut position, if I may, “He was there first” and “the feds don’t really care about that turtle anyway.”
Edited because double post.
Villago Delenda Est
@Gene108:
There is a word in this sentence that does not belong. I’ll let the crowd here determine what that word is.
PsiFighter37
@ranchandsyrup: Don’t forget that white followers of Jesus sailed to America from Israel after he was crucified and fought off the evil black people.
Tommy
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: Neither do I. Neither do I. But this scares me. It seems clear a lot of folks with guns on one side made the government back down. Again I am for sane policing and against violence, but maybe the far right well use this against us. Are we going to come to a time when if the government wants to arrest you a gang of gun totting people stops it. Maybe only for a short time, but stop it at that instance? That to me is scary beyond words.
Sloegin
I read somewheres that Bundy duly paid the grazing fees (implemented during the reign of St. Ronnie of Raygun) but suddenly stopped paying in 1993. Huh. Wonder what happend that year?
Bobby Thomson
@Gene108: There’s a difference?
ranchandsyrup
@PsiFighter37: Heh, I read about on golden tablets with my seer stone in a hat . No, you can’t see them. Now gimme all of your wimmens.
scav
Wait, 1630s? I can manage that too — what are the options other than cars? Can I swing a network discussion of the ingrained culture of govt teat sucking lurking under his familiar claims to free land, the quick recourse to guns and violence exhibited in his broken culture and its glorification of violence, drinking and broken marriages in his country music?
Eric k
@Tommy:
Yeah, the real outrage should be that grazing fees are absurdly low and not even remotely near market value.
And let’s no even get into where they get water to feed cattle in Nevada. These “rugged individualists” wouldn’t last a day without the Feds subsidizing them
ranchandsyrup
@Sloegin: Bundy got upset that the collection activities went from a local assessor to the BLM.
Anoniminous
@Greg:
And New Mexico.
The biggest TeaBagging loud mouth “I WANTZ FREEDUMS FROM DUH GUVMINT!” in my county has gotten around $500,000 in ag subsidies over the last 20 years. The biggest glibertarian was adamant anybody can do anything anytime they want on their private property … until his next door neighbor wanted to do something he didn’t like and then it became a violation of zoning and detriment to the value of his land.
Swear to Aphrodite you can’t make this up.
Greg
Just FYI over at NRO they are stating right out that he has broken the law, and hasn’t any legal grounds for his complaint but that he is a “sympathetic” character because it is just so UNFAIR and the meanies at the BLM should have just let this poor old farmer who barely makes a living alone. No, he is not the least bit sympathetic. He is a thief.
Carol
@Greg: and Colorado
Villago Delenda Est
@Sloegin: I can’t imagine what was different in 1993 than during the Reagan or GHW Bush administrations. Nope, can’t imagine what that might have been.
Thinking, thinking.
No, nothing comes to mind…
Villago Delenda Est
@Anoniminous: I’m shocked, shocked.
More vapors coming on.
bago
Can somebody slap a lein on that ass? Garnish the sales of his cattle?
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Tommy:
Good points. That’s why I’m stymied. One of our founding principles, at least as I understand things, is that we’re a nation of laws not of men. So when a bunch of armed men flout the law what should the administration’s response be?
Me? I’m just an old vet of close combat. I favor condoning off Bundy and his followers then shooting them down like rodents if they refuse to disarm.
Tommy
@Eric k: I spend more for my cat to eat each month (had to update this) like by a factor of five. Maybe she is picky (she is). But my gosh that is next to nothing. Guy is raising cattle for almost free, well it is free cause he didn’t pay, but if it did almost free. Can you feed your dog for $1.35/month?
LT
Check this rancher story out. dude even *declined* tax breaks.
blogs.idahostatesman.com/idaho-ranching-and-conservation-giant-purdy-dies/
Violet
Someone coined this description of him: “Welfare Cowboy”. Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Violet:
What does it say about modern cons that their heroes are a guy who passed away in 2004 (And whose record has been embellished beyond belief) and a deadbeat rancher?
Tommy
@Tommy: I won’t go nearly that far. I think a trained group ought to go in. Polite. Let them know it is coming. Present an arrest warrant. If at that time they want to literally have a fire fight. I will take the Feds over the far right 99 times out of 100. IMHO at some point you have to draw the line. This might be one of those cases.
I don’t even know the example, but I can’t break the law just cause I don’t like it. That are what courts are for. This guy lost. The guns piss me off to no end.The right hated Occupy. Ok, I understand. Did they ever have a rifle trained on a CEO from a bridge overpass? They had guns trained on Federal employee here and it seems “cool.” Have I fallen down a rabbit hole?
Tokyokie
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: Hey, I’m a descendant of John and Rebecca (Pocahontas) Rolfe, but being a man of simple pleasures, I’d be appeased with a mere 1967 Citroën DS. In perfect running condition. And red.
Violet
@Tommy: Did you see the pictures linked in another thread? The federal employees happened to be black–at least the ones in uniform in the pictures were. All the protestors were white.
Linda Featheringill
@Villago Delenda Est:
1993:
You guys are so smart! But Google is my friend and now even I realize what happened in 1993.
:-)
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Tokyokie:
Then you want a DS19, yes? You do realize that the gas pedal in a DS19 looks like a mushroom (Yes, I worked on them).
scav
Also, what if any sort of charges can be brought up against those aiding and abetting this sort of crime? We need him, we need his enablers. They need to be shunned and shamed, plus have their assets hauled off when appropriate. Funny how some officers in the wild west are so eager to go in weaponry blazing against homeless people and school kids but we’ve got to be oh so freaking careful here. Those Jackbooted Feds, right.
Ejoiner
And my FB is filling up with wing nut supporters who are all revolving around the following claims:
1) It’s a big power-play by Harry Reid because of Chinese banking interests (!?)
2) These are real Americans beginning a second revolution true to the Constitutions principals – unlike the dirty hippies at the Occupy protests who were trying to destroy the Constitution.
3) God’s will is moving in these times and this is just the beginning of a new era founded on Christian values
4) When this is done it will propel these guys into office and the next step is impeaching Obama.
I kid you not, this is the delusional crap I’m seeing over and over and over again.
John F
@Anoniminous: I had a coworker like that. Would talk all the time about property rights until he saw over his neighbors fence and saw some old cars in the backyard. He griped about it at work and said he was going to call the city on this guy for running an illegal junkyard. We gave this guy so much grief about being a nosy hypocrite, he shut up about it.
J R in WV
I’m bad with dates and date and time arithmetic – taking a big guess here. Was Bill Clinton elected in 1993?
kindness
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: Well I gotta be able to fit the dogs in as well as my better half so the FF is better for me. Italian 4 wheel drive though??? Not sure but I’d take it if it was free.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ejoiner:
Well, a new era founded on Christian values doesn’t sound that bad to me. Of course, the problem is that these types are actually followers of Jeebus, son of Mammon, and hate that hippy dippy Jesus guy who talked of how difficult it was (well-nigh impossible, in fact) for rich man to enter Heaven.
Villago Delenda Est
@J R in WV: He was elected in 1992. He took office in 1993. Hence the sudden change of attitude by the Bundy Welfare Cowboy.
kindness
@Sloegin: The Bundy payment thingy. He sent a check to Clark County years ago and they sent it back to him saying it wasn’t their deal. Bundy then never tried to pay it again.
James E. Powell
Ellis – No Country for Old Men – Cormac McCarthy
ranchandsyrup
@Ejoiner: Snopes has a post up on the China thingy.
Tokyokie
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: Mais oui! C’est la plus belle voiture de production jamais fait, et d’ailleurs, Alain Delon a conduit un dans Le samouraï.
Lurking Canadian
@Tommy: Rand Paul says it’s OK to order a drone strike on a kid who steals a TV. This guy’s stolen grazing rights worth something like 2000 TVs. I think that means Obama gets to send 2000 drones after him.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Baud:
LOL.
OldDave
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
I thought it was the brake pedal…
Bubblegum Tate
@Ejoiner:
I’ve seen a lot of the first, an almost equal amount of the second, pretty much none of the third, and an unincreased level of the fourth (they’re always on about “you filthy libs have just made a grave error that will cost you dearly–stay tuned for impeachment!”).
One variant I briefly saw was “it’s unconstitutional for the BLS to own and administer any land.” When pressed on how, exactly, it’s unconstitutional, they dithered, hurled a few “fuck you”s, and dropped the talking point.
Pogonip
I wonder how many of these great patriots could pass the U.S. citizenship test. I couldn’t have passed the ’80’s version, the only one I’ve seen, without cracking some books and refreshing my knowledge of history and civics.
Villago Delenda Est
@Pogonip: If you ran the Bill of Rights by them, they wouldn’t recognize it. Well, they might recognize part of the 2nd Amendment, but insist that the “well regulated militia” clause was inserted by Stalin or something.
burnspbesq
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
Seems like a waste of good ordnance. Why not just starve ’em out.
Villago Delenda Est
@burnspbesq: Better yet, let Steve get some exercise chasing the rodents around.
Violet
@Villago Delenda Est: Funny you should mention that–Steve “hunting” picture in the thread two above.
Pogonip
@burnspbesq: Or put a complicated lock on the enclosure. They’ll starve before they figure out how to get out.
dubo
Remember that as far as “ancestral” rights goes:
1) Bundy claims that his cattle grazing rights predate federal rights because his family has been grazing there since 1877 before those nasty feds swooped in to steal it
BUT
2) The federal government has owned that land since 1848
3) Courts have examined Nevada records and determined that actually Bundy’s family didn’t start grazing there until 1954
whoopsy doodle
WaterGirl
@Baud: What time is that show on?
MCA1
Fuck this guy. Either cut off the water supply to the area and let’s see what his neighbors do about it, or just get a court to allow confiscation of his herd and take them away in the middle of the night. Then make him pay past fees in order to access the bankruptcy courts. Freeloading moron.
We could also just cut off his electricity and water and see how long they hold out over this childish nonsense, and send in Seal Team Six in the dead of night to take them all into custody if it lasts more than a week. We don’t need to engage in Waco-style standoffs in 2014.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Yeah, except they won. The government should have simply shot all those cattle where they stood weeks ago, before the loons got the word out.
Now the Tard Squad gets to do the victory dance and Rancer MoochyMcMooch gets to run his cows for at least another few months before the elections. And next time, there will be a lot more cameras to document the jackbooted Government thugs stealing an honest thieves’ livelihood.
barbequebob
If he’s holed up inside an enclosure, the welfare cowboy won’t be much of a travelin’ man
PurpleGirl
@Sloegin: I believe that’s when EPA promulgated the regulations on the desert tortoise.
Pen
@CONGRATULATIONS!: I’ve said all along that the answer to this is send him a bill for delinquent fees and, if he refuses to pay, destroy his cattle and put a lien on his property and bank accounts.
If he and his “militia” get rowdy we have more than enough trained personnel to enforce the law. If they let them skate they’re opening themselves up for further illegality. If they crack down they make martyrs. Either way the same people that lost their shit after Waco will again, so we might as well do as the law demands.
Feebog
Sounds to me like its time for some enterprising rustlers to bag them a few head.
pluege
inventing opportunities to brandish guns in public is more important than anything to NRA terrorists. More important than the rule of law, more important than the lives of wives and daughters. Its all about self-deluded psycho public displays of the size of manhood NRA terrorist cowards lack.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Pen: Agreed.
He’s been sent the bill.
He’s refused to pay.
Guess it’s time to start shooting his cows.
I’d prefer to take them (cows are both nice critters and somewhat financially valuable) but the nitwit brigade isn’t going to stand for that. So shoot them, let the good meat rot in the sun, and slap liens on everything he owns. These idiots keep claiming the Feds are jackbooted thugs; I’m long past thinking it’s time to put some truth in their fairy tales.
Eric U.
I’m in for a couple of pairs of jackboots, anyone with me?
coin operated
Just wanted to point out that the Rude One (I know a bunch of you follow him) had a very pointed message for the ignorant fools who thought to take on the government with mere bolt-action rifles.
rudepundit.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-lesson-of-bundyblm-standoff.html
Picture number 2 shows you all you need to know…
Enhanced Voting Techniques
What strikes me is what kind of adult can just take two weeks off their work to confront the governments at a moments notice. That can’t be anyone who works for a living or is even a small businesses owner – heck, the guy I work for didn’t feel comfortable to take time for his own mother’s death. This sounds like they all are on government handouts.
Ruckus
@burnspbesq:
They have lots of food. It’s on the hoof but it’s still food.
Ruckus
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Well, he’s a rancher who lets his cattle run wild, on OUR land, at most he has to round them up once or twice a year, that takes what, a couple of weeks? I’d say he has a lot more free time than a welder or waiter or a non romney, etc. And he has to sell those cattle and I’ll bet that is at a profit. So he has money to fight 20 yrs of losing battles. What gets me is that it has taken 20 yrs to get to this point. How the hell do you manage to get 20 yrs of losing in court owing the Fed government money? If it was me I figure I’d get maybe 6 months before they just take everything.
AxelFoley
@Pen:
Destroy his cattle, and you’ll get PETA and other animal rights groups involved, guaranteed. I’ll further complicate this shit.
No, just send in the BLM with some armed feds and if there’s any armed resistance from these yokels, fuck their shit up.
The End. Done. Fin.
AxelFoley
“It’ll” further complicate this shit, not “I’ll”.
Sheesh.
RobertDSC-Power Mac G5 Dual
@AxelFoley:
This. Or for giggles’ sake, fly a Predator or Reaper drone over the property, then destroy the cattle with a Hellfire missile that gets a wee bit close to the homestead. Oops.
Petorado
Young bucks with government-subsidized T-bones are the problem. Old bucks demanding their T-bones eat out of the government though for free are the solution. /wingnut
Bundy is helping piss on the water supply of the West with his overgrazing of federal lands. The citizens of the State of Nevada as well as the rest of the West are worse off for his brand of chicanery. He may screw with the laws of man, but the laws of nature that forced the implementation of them will still bite him and his fellow citizens in the ass.
TG Chicago
I find Bundy’s flouting of the law unacceptable, but I’m disturbed by the number of folks here who see a solution in killing the cattle or, far worse, doing violence to the humans involved.
Even if you’re just blowing off steam, I think it’s a bad idea to go down that path.
I’ve been a bit disappointed about how the feds have handled it thus far, but I support their apparent efforts to minimize the chance of violence. While the Bundys might push things to the point where violence is unavoidable, I’m hopeful and optimistic that they’ll find a better solution.
NeenerNeener
@ranchandsyrup: Wingnuts on Facebook are now claiming that Snopes is another liberal conspiracy and not to be trusted.
MCA1
@NeenerNeener: Not shocking. I’ve heard a sort of “Well, how do I know this ‘Snopes’ group doesn’t have an agenda?” inquiry more than a few times, even from non-wingnuts. I think what it comes down to is shock at what they see there, and inability to process that literally everything they’ve been told on Fox and in a million e-mail forwards they’ve received over the last 15 years is wrong. It can’t possibly all be false, and I can’t possibly be that gullible. Therefore, Snopes can’t possibly be trustworthy.
A few years ago, it became trendy in wingnut e-mail forwards to include a little tidbit at the end about “Hey, I even checked this out on snopes.com, and it’s true!” That was apparently intended as a prophylactic to stop lazy people from going and checking. Because if they did go and check, they’d see that, in fact, the entirety of the dumb story about the lazy gubmint bureaucrat who let a convoluted system of regulations kill all the geese in South Dakota, or whatever nonsense, had already been debunked.
MCA1
@Ruckus: Which leads to yet another indirect way to shut this jackass down: draconian fines against anyone who purchases cattle from him. Let’s see how long he makes it when his illegally grown product no longer has a market. There aren’t that many marketplaces to go sell a thousand head of cattle for slaughter, so it wouldn’t be all that tough to monitor, I should think.
This should all be infinitely easier than getting a bunch of doomsday cultists who are basically off the grid to give it up. This guy’s a rich rancher who needs access to infrastructure and markets or his entire operation will collapse. There are plenty of ways to just squeez him.
Jebediah, RBG
@TG Chicago:
You point a loaded weapon at federal agents, you might get shot. Boo fucking hoo. Don’t want to get shot? Don’t point a loaded weapon at federal agents. Don’t commit armed insurrection.