In a stunning 5-4 ruling along partisan lines, the Supreme Court today began chipping away at the separation of church and state:
The Supreme Court on Monday ruled that a town in upstate New York did not violate the Constitution by starting its public meetings with a prayer from a “chaplain of the month” who was almost always Christian.
Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, writing for the majority in a 5-to-4 decision that divided the court’s more conservative members from its liberal ones, said the prayers were merely ceremonial. They were neither unduly sectarian nor likely to make members of other faiths feel unwelcome.
“Ceremonial prayer,” he wrote, “is but a recognition that, since this nation was founded and until the present day, many Americans deem that their own existence must be understood by precepts far beyond that authority of government to alter or define.”
In dissent, Justice Elena Kagan said the town’s practices could not be reconciled “with the First Amendment’s promise that every citizen, irrespective of her religion, owns an equal share of her government.”
Town officials in Greece, N.Y., near Rochester, said that members of all faiths, and atheists, were welcome to give the opening prayer. In practice, however, almost all of the chaplains were Christian. Some of their prayers were explicitly sectarian, with references, for instance, to “the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.”
How the fuck does an atheist lead a prayer?
NCSteve
To the FSM with a disdainful smirk?
Joel
Looking forward to participations from the Pastafarians and the Church of the SubGenius.
Trollhattan
I suggest beginning: “I like big butts, I cannot lie.”
The Roberts Court is quite the old boys club.
Ruckus
“We are gathered here, the children of each other…”
jerry rosen
Dp like the UU’s: To Whom It May Concern…
dedc79
And for those counting, that’s five Christians voting with the majority, and 3 Jews and 1 Christian in the minority.
It’s almost as if those who find themselves in the religious majority have a far lower sensitivity toward what might constitute religious coercion than those who find themselves in the minority.
El Caganer
Why, with style, with panache, with a certain whimsical humor undergirded by sneering contempt. How else?
different-church-lady
There’s no way in hell this is going to stand up to a supreme court challeng’…. oh, wait….
charluckles
Who the hell are these guys to decide whether these prayers will make members of other faiths feel welcome? I mean it must be a total coincidence that all of these guys belong to the dominant faith?
schrodinger's cat
I hate godbotherers of all kinds, especially the ones in the majority who have a persecution complex.
For the first time in history the godbotherers in India may get a majority on their own. I am crossing all my paws, that they do not.
skeeball
Paging Lucien Greaves. This sounds like a job for the Church of Satan
Ash Can
I’d like to see a bunch of atheists and satanists get together and deluge that town council with requests to lead the opening prayer, then, when they’re inevitably turned down, sue the ever-loving shit out of that burg.
schrodinger's cat
This thread needs a respite from the crazy, it needs a wise kitteh!
Rosalita
“A man walks into a bar…”
Warren Terra
I could come up with some ideas about this: a short address thanking providence for the human capacity for rational thought and thanking the great minds of the past for beating back ignorance and for explaining their ideas and encouraging us to weigh those ideas and to come up with our own might work.
But that isn’t even the point as I see it. Sure, some enormously brave person might be willing to stand alone in the center of the town meeting and insist that their Atheist, Agnostic, or unusual Religious beliefs be granted some time, proclaiming it to their neighbors on this one occasion, in return for having the majority faith taught to them with official imprimatur the rest of the time. But: note I said “enormously brave”, and I meant it. This woul be a hard thing to do, and it would be easier by far to conform. The beauty of the Establishment Clause is that the use of the State’s authority to make it uncomfortable not to be a Christian, or for that matter some particular type of Christian is a no-no. Except that this 5-4 decision carves out one more space where the power of the state will be used to make it harder and more uncomfortable not to fall in line behind Jesus.
dubo
“Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, writing for the majority in a 5-to-4 decision that divided the court’s more conservative members from its liberal ones, said the prayers were merely ceremonial.”
:drudgesiren: Supreme Court rules that Christians are largely hypocrites who don’t actually believe or take seriously anything they say in prayer :drudgesiren:
KG
These were always the kind of Constitutional Law cases that I hated. Lots of city council/state legislature/congressional sessions start with a prayer (not to mention the inauguration). It’s dumb but it’s also something that people do. If they’re going to happen, it should be as nondenominational as possible, but I don’t understand why either side cares enough to see this to the Supreme Court. And I say this as a former catholic current agnostic borderline deist.
shelley
5-4 ruling. Quelle surprise.
******
If the whole prayer thing is just ‘ceremonial’ then why bother dragging it all the way to the frigging Supreme Court? Somebody must of felt it was damn important.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Ash Can: And Jews and Muslims. And Sikhs. And….
JGabriel
NY Times:
… said none of the non-christians on the bench.
Seriously, how do you defend arguing that the prayers are not unduly sectarian (Christian) if you can’t even get either of the two Jewish members of the court to join your opinion?
The Conservative wing of the court is shameless.
japa21
@dubo: Good point. Imagine the uproar if Obama, at the national day of prayer breakfast was heard saying that prayers are mostly ceremonial and don’t really convey a religious point.
Brian R.
Reminds me of Anatole France’s line: “In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.”
ranchandsyrup
The “ceremonial” setting of precedent to be further exploited to protect those poor Xtians that are “under attack”.
? Martin
“Get the fuck back to work. This isn’t a church.”
Pogonip
“Oh Lord, even though I am sure you do not exist–uh–um–psst! Rabbi, what do I say next?”
Belafon
My suggestion: When they start the prayer, start singing the national anthem. When they tell you to stop, tell them this is the only worship that should be occurring at a public meeting.
Sherparick
Actually, as I read this opinion, they are not going to be invited to lead such prayers. I expect all the Church Establishmentarians, particularly the Evangelicals and the Catholics will celebrate this giant FU to all those non-Christians and non-religious in the body politic. Its a great message to let them know they are “second class” as citizens. It will be interesting the reaction down the road as the more sectarian prayers get said, and the Catholics beseech the Holy Virgin Mary for intercessions and the Evangelical preacher to say something that would set Catholics teeth on edge, and you will both sides starting to march off to religious war.
PIGL
I think it’s now just a matter of which side first declares the 2nd Republic. The GOP, who been busily creating one since the Bush years, or a Democratic President….to ask the question is to answer it.
schrodinger's cat
Blessed are the cheese makers..
BGinCHI
I would just read from the screenplay of The Big Lebowski.
Or maybe some Nietzsche if I was in a grumpy mood.
dedc79
So, say you’re a member of a religious minority or an atheist and you’re living in Greece, NY. You happen to have recently been the victim of an act of religious discrimination and you go to the next town council meeting to raise the issue. Before the meeting starts, however, a prayer is recited that talks all about Jesus Christ and the cross and so forth. And all the members of the town council are reciting the prayer and so is nearly everyone in the audience. How likely are you to speak up at that point? What would give you any reason to believe you’ll be given a fair hearing by the council?
Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader
Dear Abortion President,
Please use your monarch-like powers to protect us, feed us, clothe us and house us. Wield the mighty hammer of taxation upon our enemies as we seek to have unprotected and non-consensual anal sex with them. Bless and strengthen our efforts to create a one-world government that you shall reign over forever and ever.
In Benghazi’s Name We Pray,
Amen.
BGinCHI
Let’s wait until Burns weighs in to tell us how the law works, OK?
scav
“merely ceremonial” empty ritual devoid of actual religious feeling and content? Funny, that’s how I see a lot of the rulings currently being handed down from that Bench and their relationship to the law and constitution. (Burnsie no doubt sees this as a strong point.)
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
This is going to go down as the single most damaging court in the history of the Surpremes, isn’t it?
JGabriel
Anthony Kennedy from SCOTUS Majority Opinion (via NYTimes):
Excerpted from the new Christopher Durang smash Broadway hit Sister Anthony Kennedy Mansplains It All For You Degenerate Heathens.
Bill Arnold
@dedc79:
My wife, who is Jewish, gets upset at any opening prayer (at a non-religious organization) that includes something like “in Jesus’ name we pray”. That’s her limit, and from skimming the dissent, it looks it was at least occasionally crossed in Greece, NY.
SatanicPanic
@dedc79: That’s the point, isn’t it?
Belafon
@JGabriel: So not only is he trying to squeeze prayer in, he’s also trying to redefine the whole “rule by the consent of the governed.”
? Martin
@dedc79:
Citizen_X
Boy, the Roberts court is going to go down in infamy in US history, innit? (I hope.)
I’m all for the Satanists and Pastafarians taking this on, but I say it’s time for the cult of Eros to make its resurgence. Let our Priestess-Whores say their invocation/call for holy orgy, or we’re taking this to court!
low-tech cyclist
You could steal from Crash Davis:
Or Annie Savoy:
ulee
When I was in second grade I said I didn’t believe in God. My teacher was visibly shocked. Poor woman. But that was another place and time. Maryland, 1972.
dubo
@JGabriel: “Ceremonial prayer is but a recognition that, since this nation was founded and until the present day, many Americans deem that their own existence must be understood by precepts far beyond that authority of government to alter or define.”
Ah, there’s the rub… seems like he’s pretty explicity trying to promote the right-wing “science is just another religion” and “all human rights stem from religion” tropes by lying about what religion and prayer actually are
schrodinger's cat
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: Is Chief Justice Roberts worse than Taney? What do the legal eagles here think?
pharniel
I can’t wait for all the city councils that find this ridiculous to start inviting Imams and Rabbi’s
JGabriel
John Cole @ Top:
Like this:
Deteriorata from National Lampoon.
Bobby Thomson
They’ve already established not only that they are stone cold racists, but that they aren’t ashamed to admit it publicly. This is completely unsurprising.
Taney and Catron in modern clothing.
And I don’t want to hear another goddamn word about how Fat Tony Scalia is some principled defender of the First Amendment. It’s a lie and it’s always been a lie, and all you totebaggers who feed the myth need to STFU.
PurpleGirl
JC up top:
How the fuck does an atheist lead a prayer?
My first thought. Arrrgggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!
PaulB
I like Zelazny’s solution:
Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen.
Ash Can
@JGabriel: Which of course would be fine if all of the Americans in attendance at these gatherings felt that way. However, the gatherings at which these prayers are being recited aren’t open to “many” Americans, they’re open to all Americans. I really hope those meetings turn into showcases for every fringe and crackpot “belief” under the sun. It would teach everyone involved a valuable lesson.
Roger Moore
@BGinCHI:
Say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.
Omnes Omnibus
I haven’t read the opinion yet but if Kennedy is suggesting that a prayer is a form of ceremonial deism like having “In God We Trust” on currency, he is completely fucked in the head.*
*FWIW I think having “In God We Trust” on currency is a First Amendment violation.
BGinCHI
@Roger Moore: I was thinking the prologue: “Sometimes there’s a man…aww heck….”
scav
Does anyone think we could get some monitors in the town meetings to ask everyone offering a prayer to certify, vow and attest that they do not believe anything they are about to intone — because only empty ritual has been legitimized.
JGabriel
History to Supreme Court: Goodbye Credibility!
different-church-lady
@JGabriel:
Written in 1972 — that’s as prescient as it gets.
rikyrah
Let’s bring an Imam up and see how they feel.
BGinCHI
@Omnes Omnibus: I agree. He is literally fucked in the head.
Calouste
@Omnes Omnibus:
Certainly because it is not followed by “All others pay cash”.
JGabriel
@Omnes Omnibus:
Seconded.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Slippery slope is starting to look more like a waterslide. With a pool full of broken glass at the bottom for those who don’t pledge allegiance to the United Baptist States of America.
ulee
Welcome to America, land of the willfully stupid.
Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader
@Omnes Omnibus: Would you be okay with “In Mammon We Trust”?
Elizabelle
I really winced at Franklin Graham’s “one nation under Jesus” at George W’s second inaugural.
Did not belong there (Graham’s Jesus-pushing, or W).
Jebediah, RBG
@BGinCHI:
At least its an ethos…
Roger Moore
@Bobby Thomson:
Look like the same robes judges have been wearing since whenever.
aimai
@KG: Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean that other people,equally entitled to citizenship and fair play, can’t see it. I would be mortally offended to have someone pray over my city council meeting “In Jesus’s Name.” It would let me know that people like myself were not considered equal to those belonging to whichever sect was giving the blessing.
dedc79
@CONGRATULATIONS!: I suspect this is what the bottom looks like.
Elizabelle
@Joel:
Indeed we do.
Don’t despair. Compose.
We need a Pastafarian prayer, several perhaps, suitable for various occasions.
We must encourage our Muslim neighbors to participate too. Imams at every Oklahoma council meeting! The Supreme Court said that prayer belongs at those meetings. Prayer they shall get.
ulee
Here, we celebrate our stupidity.
Spinoza Is My Co-pilot
As a liberal atheist I have to confess I really don’t give much of a shit about this. I am all for the separation of church and state, but this is small beer. Godbotherers can be dangerous sometimes, of course, but this is really just annoying. The stupid remnants of Sunday blue laws in this country have greater impact.
In the coming decades most every church in western Europe will become a museum or performing arts center, and cease functioning as a worship site. The good ol’ US of A lags behind that progression of modern civilization, but will eventually be in much the same place, I think. If global climate change doesn’t get us all first (huge “if”).
I really enjoyed a lot of the responses here so far to John’s question. “I like big butts. I can not lie.” “A man walks into a bar…” “Blessed are the cheesemakers”.
That last one leads me to the prayer I would open with were I given the opportunity:
“O Lord, oooo, you are so big, so absolutely huge. Gosh, we’re all really impressed down here, I can tell you. Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying, but you are so strong, and well, just so super. Amen.”
Sure, I couldn’t do it like Michael Palin, but I’d give it the college try.
mark
Our Father, Who aren’t in heaven…
JPL
@Omnes Omnibus: I believe they are the conservatives except Roberts if fucked in the head. Roberts knows exactly what he’s doing and that’s worse.
Omnes Omnibus
@Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader: No.
BGinCHI
@mark: Howard be thy name….
Comrade Dread
I’d humbly suggest this for agnostics and atheists, even if it is taken from the bible:
I wouldn’t expect many legislative bodies to actually do anything in response to this scripture (especially the House of Representatives) but it would help to point out the blatant hypocrisy of those politicians who love to invoke religion and the name of God while passing legislation that is in direct opposition to what’s written in His word.
Long Tooth
This decision serves to cast the “excesses” committed by the Republican armed forces during the Spanish Civil War in a better light.
ulee
I’ll open the next meeting. I’ll keep it short. WE IZ STUPID. Everyone will clap their hands and congratulate themselves about how stupid they are.
cleek
not a dime’s worth of difference…
Bill Arnold
@PaulB:
That Zelazny prayer is nicely done, tx for sharing it. (A wikipedia article calls it “The Agnostic’s Prayer”
Jebediah, RBG
@Jebediah, RBG:
and of course I was beaten to the punch.
Roger Moore
Now I’m the mutha fucka that ya read about
Takin’ a life or two
that’s what the hell I do, you don’t like how I’m livin
well fuck you!
shelley
Love the top Newsmax headline:
“Dick Morris: Hillary Used Same Benghazi Language as Rhodes Email”
You mean words like ‘the’ and ‘a’ ?
J.D. Rhoades
“the prayers were merely ceremonial.”
Then why are the Xtians so frantic to keep them?
dubo
@Comrade Dread: I prefer the tried and true Matthew 6:5-8
5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Roger Moore
@dedc79:
Nah, he’s not willing to say what he really thinks. The bottom looks like the 30 Years War, but with nukes.
JGabriel
Spinoza Is My Co-pilot:
Yes, it’s small beer when some idiot in Bumfuck, Pennsyltucky opens the town meeting with a prayer, but when the Supreme Court of the United States of America puts their imprimatur on it, that’s a very tall beer indeed.
Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader
@Omnes Omnibus: Your wicked secularism makes Baby Jesus cry.
Jamey
“Stunning.” As ever, I like your style, JGC.
Also:
Cacti
@schrodinger’s cat:
Roberts is more of a 21st century Melville Fuller, IMO.
low-tech cyclist
@KG: Because if ‘ceremonial deism’ can be stretched that far, you can get the collected telecasts of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and James Dobson through a chasm that big.
JGabriel
@Correction to post 20:
should be
My bad, I forgot about Breyer.
Belafon
@Spinoza Is My Co-pilot:
Back in the 40s or 50s, the Supreme Court said it wasn’t a violation of church and state to require people to say the pledge. Then some group, I believe Jehovah Witnesses, started getting beat up for refusing to say it. The SCOTUS had to reverse its own decision.
ericblair
@Citizen_X:
My understanding of the hypocritical bullshit jurisprudence on this topic is that “ceremonial” also means the prayers that geriatric white judges were comfortable hearing when they were growing up, so Christianity and Judaism are in, but all the other funny not-really-religions are out. Because reasons.
Botsplainer
Protestant fundamentalist Christianity’s deity is fucking pathetic if It requires the support of state to foist operant conditioning onto an unwilling populace in order to get its fill of worshipful glorification.
Somehow, I have my doubts as to whether many local Catholic or Greek Orthodox clerics were called to lead the prayer, judging by the cited verbiage most frequently used.
Cacti
@ericblair:
Fix’t.
Let’s not kid ourselves.
When right wingers lament straying from our “Judeo-Christian heritage” they aren’t pining for more Judaism in government.
Elizabelle
@cleek:
I know. Anyone who utters that (and has uttered that) is outed as low information.
Or a purposeful liar.
Jebediah, RBG
From TPM:
Highly imaginative hypotheticals, eh? Well, at least the
TaneyRoberts court never engages in hypotheticals to defend a conservative position.raven
Yes, Friends, welcome to Pastor Flash’s our of Reckoning,
with Organ Leroy at his organ again,
and the Fifty-Voice St. Louis Aquarium Choir.
I’m Decon E. L. Mouse.
But, Dear Friends in these days of modern time,
when you can’t tell the AC’s from the DC’s,
well aren’t we all yearning for someone who can turn on a little stopping power?
Dear Friends,
I mean a smokey glass
Don’t you think I mean a lightning rod
with which to chase these spooks away?
Don’t you know I mean our own Pastor Rod Flash!
He’s been up for a week,
but he’s coming down!
Dexterity:
White Lightning,
White Lightning,
this is Ground Beef Control.
Do you read me?
Over.
I read only Good Books
. Over.
Ho, ho, ho!
You must be way out there, Pastor.
Over.
I’m high, all right,
but not on false drugs.
I’m high on the real thing,
Powerful gasoline,
a clean windshield,
and a shoeshine.
Over.
He’s turning over!
Dexterity:
I’m all right, Roger.
Just a little argument with my co-pilot.
And guess what, Rog?
The little needle pointing to “E”
–and, while that’s always stood for Excellent in my Book,
I guess it means I’m out of gas.
You’ll have to sing me in, my friends.
My favorite.
Hymn 15–17.
Aghh . . . [fading]
Dexterity:
Thank you, Dear Friends,
I’m down,
I’m grounded,
safe and sound,
trailing clouds of glory,
I’m down.
And I’m marching!
Yes, Dear Friends,
I’m marching to dinner!
‘Cause Godamighty, I’m hungray!
Yes! I’m hungray!
Safe
and sound
and hungray!
We’re hungray!
Of course you’re hungray!
I’m hungray!
We’re all hungray!
So let’s eat!
Let’s eat!
And he said the word!
What was it?
And we ate it!
Hot dog!
And what was the word?
Hot Dog!
Hot Dog!
Yes, Dear Friends,
a mighty Hot Dog is our Lord!
I’m not talking about Hate!
Dexterity:
No, I’m talking about Ate!
Dinner at Eight!
Let’s eat!
More sugar!
Comrade Dread
@dubo: I would approve of this too.
But as both of us have just pointed out, this has never really been about Christianity. It’s all about the rah-rah American civic religion where God is our co-pilot and thinks we’re awesome and we should say thanks to Him for just how awesome and amazing we are, because He’s on board with everything we do because we’re awesome!
KG
@aimai: fair enough. I tend to roll my eyes at most public prayers because I think they are silly. As someone else said up thread, this is small ball
Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader
John, why are you ignoring the Benghazi Scandalapooza? Democrats left this scandal to die and told their friends in the media to stand down. If Democrats are allowed to whitewash this scandal, political lives could be in jeopardy.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@? Martin: I will use this for the rest of my life. Thank you.
Turgidson
@BGinCHI:
I’d channel Walter’s Judaism.
“I sure as shit DON’T FUCKING ROLL.”
srv
@Botsplainer: If your faith is so weak that you need the Courts of the Federal Government of the United States of America to protect it, then your god is a joke.
Eric U.
@dubo: I like that too, but it should be followed by leviticus 10:1 where got kills Aaron’s sons for not following his instructions.
Gin & Tonic
@raven: Thanks for that. It’s been a long time since I’ve thought of it.
Schlemizel
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik:
I wish but hell no! They have done worse & will probably do worse again when given the opportunity. Even as an atheist of strong non-belief who vies this decision as vile and anti-constitutional I do not believe this is the worst they have done.
raven
Monks breakdancin in Union Square!
raven
@Gin & Tonic: It came to me like the hot kiss on the end of a cold fist!
JGabriel
ericblair:
Given that none of the three Jewish members of the court joined the majority opinion, my guess would be that Judaism is not in either – as far as prayers that geriatric white judges were comfortable hearing goes anyway.
This really is an embarrassment. I suspect future generations will scratch their heads in flabbergasted incredulity that 5 of the 6 Christian SCOTUS justices could ignore the sensitivities of their Judaic peers on the bench to come up with this opinion.
Hell, I’m sure I’m not the only one in the present generation that finds it gob-smacking.
Schlemizel
@schrodinger’s cat:
Until Roberts rules that a non-christian holds no right an christian needs to recognize Taney wins hands down. Not to say Roberts won’t just that until he does this is not even a contest.
VOR
The SciFi author Roger Zelazny wrote an agnostic’s prayer into his novel “Creatures of Light and Darkness”. Well, actually a couple. Here is the more famous one.
“Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to ensure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen.”
Kristin
This is all the more reason that progressive purity campaigns scare me. If we end up with a Republican president because if a bunch of ceremonial 3rd party voters, we can expect the court to get worse.
PurpleGirl
We should not forget this version which was quite popular in Star Trek and regular SF fandom:
Disintegrata
Go nastily amid the peace and tranquility, and remember what satisfaction there may be in genocide.
As far as possible, without surrender, move into other people’s space.
Lie often, and loudly; and listen to the lies of others, even the slow and incompetent — examples can be made of them later.
Seek out meek and inoffensive persons; they are annoying, but fun to kill.
Do not bother comparing yourself to others; those greater than you will eventually be eliminated, and those lesser than you are dead already.
Fart in airlocks.
Assassinate your superior as quickly as possible; your own career, however exalted, is not worth a plugged millo if one of your junior officers gets it over your dead body.
Exercise caution if one of your course changes suddenly produces a sensor ghost; for the Galaxy is full of Federation vessels.
But let this not blind you to the happier side of things; many Starship captains are swaggering, tin-plated dictators with delusions of godhood, and everywhere life is full of incompetence.
Advance yourself.
Especially do not feign meanness, neither be cynical about hate; you are not likely to run out of either.
Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the joys of defenestration and evisceration for more mature pleasures.
Nurture a deep-seated suspicion of small furry creatures that purr; you never can tell.
File your teeth regularly.
Discipline is important; practice holding it in between planet falls.
You are a scourge of the universe, no less than your average interstellar plague or black hole; you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is going to pieces in a most laudable manner.
Therefore do your utmost to annoy the Destroyer, however you may conceive of Him, Big Bang or Entropy Death; and whatever your plans of conquest, as you wade through the morasses of peace with fire and sword, annoy your soul.
With all its truth, high resolve, and courage, the world still has its ugly spots.
Be thoughtless.
Strive to be miserable.
Found scratched on the Energy Barrier – Stardate 2832.4
Cacti
@Kristin:
Yup.
Assuming no deaths or retirements before the 2016 election, the four oldest Justices will be 83, 80, 80, and 78. A Republican President in 2016 could potentially mean a 7-2 conservative super majority on the SCOTUS.
Howard Beale IV
dubo
@JGabriel: A set of 5 christians overruling 3 jews that sectarian prayers are exclusionary reminds me of Bill O saying that “nobody with any sense” is offended by “Merry Christmas” but he totally knows LOTS of people who are offended by “Happy Holidays” so really it’s saying “Happy Holidays” that is religious persecution
catclub
@schrodinger’s cat: How do your get those angry/scared cat ears, but the pupils not dilated at all? The cat was built that way?
iami
The reasoning is quite similar to the Dred Scott case. It’s a pity that it wasn’t cited by the majority as a precedent. The case at hand speaks to the fact that such religious observations are a long-standing part of our culture and, so therefore, should continue to be tolerated because, apparently, “right or wrong” doesn’t count in the face of tradition. This is pretty much exactly the crux of what the Dred Scott decision was lain upon.
Kay
@aimai:
Kagan’s dissent is good:
And then Alito gets really cranky in response and completely dismisses all of her concerns in a patronizing, lecturing manner much like Justice Roberts did with Justice Sotomayor in the affirmative action case.
I think they would bring it into a polling place, myself, maybe before opening to the public as some sort of pre-opening blessing. I don’t think that’s at all far-fetched. I could see that happening.
schrodinger's cat
@catclub: I think of Yoda ears, as kitteh in attention gathering mode. Flat ears pasted to the head is : Red alert preparing for attack.
catclub
@JGabriel: “geriatric white judges ”
Did Clarence Thomas vote with the minority? Or maybe he is not considered geriatric, yet.
raven
Here they come to football games!
joel hanes
@raven:
You’ll have to sing me in, my friends.
My favorite.
Hymn 15–17.
Aghh . . . [fading]
Missing at this point in Raven’s otherwise-excellent recap are the words and music to that stirring hymn, “Marching To Shibboleth” (which I’m afraid would go right over the head of the Court’s majority). But it would be fun to organize a “St. Louis Aquarium Choir” to perform it at purely ceremonial events, such as city council meetings or the yearly opening of the SCOTUS.
But what is it about the conspicuous-piety people that they cannot seem to grasp Jesus’s admonitions about whited sepulchres?
The Other Chuck
I dunno about prayer, but Robert Ingersoll’s Why I am an Agnostic is awesome to read with a fiery preacher’s voice (it takes a bit to warm up, so part 1 isn’t the best example).
joel hanes
@raven:
So Nancy is in on this caper?
raven
@joel hanes: Axe and ye shall
We’re marching, marching to Shibboleth,
With the Eagle and the Sword!
We’re praising Zion ’til her death,
Until we meet our last reward!
Men: Our Lord’s reward!
Women: Zion! Oh happy Zion!
O’er wrapp’d, but not detained!
Men: Lion, f’rocious Lion!
His beard our mighty mane!
Women: At First and Main!
Men: Oh, we;ll go marching, marching to Omaha,
With the Buckram and the Cord!
Women: You’ll hear us “boom” our State!
Men: Ha, ha! As we cross the final ford!
Women: The flaming Ford!
Choir: Zion! Oh mighty Zion!
Your bison now are dust!
As your cornflakes rise
“Gainst the rust-red skies,
Then our blood requires us must
Go …
Men: Marching, marching to Shibboleth,
With the Eagle and the …
Women: The Buckram and the Cord!
Men: Sword! Praising Zion ’til her death!
Women: Ha, ha!
Men: Until we eat our last reward!
Women: The flaming Ford!
Choir: Zion! Oh righteous Zion!
There is no one to blame!
For the homespun pies
‘Neath the cracking skies
Shall release the fulsome rain!
Tenor: Shall release!
Men: Shall release!
Soprano: Shall release!
Women: Shall release!
Choir: Shall release the vinyl rein!
raven
@joel hanes: Betty Joe Bialoski?
Gin & Tonic
@raven: Just don’t mention the name of the high school that Peorgie and Mudhead attended, or we’ll get BiP in this thread, too.
Schlemizel
@Gin & Tonic:
Thats the kind of spirit I like to her RAW, RAW, RAW!
Spinoza Is My Co-pilot
@raven: Melanie Haber? Audry Farber?
GregB
Meanwhile in Alabama Justice Roy Moore has declared that the First Amendment applies only to Christians.
These religious fascists aren’t going to stop till America is a fully Christian Taliban nation.
raven
@Gin & Tonic: Morse Science High!
raven
There’s more old’s here than I thought!
Gin & Tonic
@raven: Sorry, I meant the rival school, the one that stole Morse Science.
Gin & Tonic
@raven: Elderly white shut-ins is the phrase, amirite?
raven
@Gin & Tonic: Ah Old CM High!
raven
@Gin & Tonic: Hell I go out once or twice a day!
Spinoza Is My Co-pilot
@JGabriel: Look, it’s a stupid and wrong ruling by a conservative SCOTUS. I’d rather they ruled the other way, but this is unsurprising.
And it is still, in my opinion, of trifling concern.
Let them pray to their non-existent sky daddy, I don’t give a fuck. He’s not real, and their prayers to a non-existent being are the penultimate in empty, meaningless words.
However, if it really bothers you so much, then say something the next time you’re at some town meeting opened “In the name of Jesus”. You have that right. What are you afraid of? Disapproval? That your neighbors/fellow citizens might find out you think this is an inappropriate injection of religion into official civic business? If you believe so strongly about that, wouldn’t you want them to know?
I really hate facile “slippery-slope” arguments. What and how does anyone thinks this leads to? Or is having to hear someone briefly talk to his Imaginary Superfriend before you all get down to business somehow make you a second-class citizen because you believe in a different Imaginary Superfriend, or no Imaginary Superfriends at all?
I hate the injection of the execrable “God Bless America” into t he 7th inning stretch. So I sit, and don’t care what others around me think.
BC
If I were a religious person who believed in power of prayer, I’d be put out to hear Supremes call it “ceremonial.” Like the ultra-orthodox in Israel, they think that prayer is what keeps this country from going full-on European or some other bad fate
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@Schlemizel:
I’m not talking about the decision in specific. I’m talking about this collection of 9 judges and their rulings as a whole. The fact that Ginsberg and Sotomayor have been fantastic hasn’t made up for the shitty list of 5-4 offenses this group seems to have shat on us.
joel hanes
@Spinoza Is My Co-pilot:
Susan Underhill
joel hanes
@raven:
PEOPLE’S PROSECUTOR TIREBITER: Communist Martyr High School! Exactly
…
JUDGE POOP: Young man, if you don’t answer the question, I’m afraid we’ll have to gag you.
MUDHEAD: What question ?
JUDGE POOP: Gag him.
PEOPLE’S PROSECUTOR TIREBITER: Who was that woman I saw you with last night?
MUDHEAD: Ohh! That was no woman; that was Bottles!
The Pale Scot
My vote is for Python’s Meaning of Life, Just to fuck with them.
CHAPLAIN: Let us praise God. O Lord,…
CONGREGATION: O Lord,…
CHAPLAIN: …ooh, You are so big,…
CONGREGATION: …ooh, You are so big,…
CHAPLAIN: …so absolutely huge.
CONGREGATION: …so absolutely huge.
CHAPLAIN: Gosh, we’re all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
CONGREGATION: Gosh, we’re all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
CHAPLAIN: Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying, and…
CONGREGATION: And barefaced flattery.
CHAPLAIN: But You are so strong and, well, just so super.
CONGREGATION: Fantastic.
HUMPHREY: Amen.
CONGREGATION: Amen.
Hymn;
O Lord, please don’t burn us.
Don’t grill or toast Your flock.
Don’t put us on the barbecue
Or simmer us in stock.
Don’t braise or bake or boil us
Or stir-fry us in a wok.
Oh, please don’t lightly poach us
Or baste us with hot fat.
Don’t fricassee or roast us
Or boil us in a vat,
And please don’t stick Thy servants, Lord,
In a Rotissomat.
burnspbesq
@BGinCHI:
I was actually going to tell you all the things that are wrong with the majority’s analysis. But fuck you.
pseudonymous in nc
“Dearly beloved, let’s not fuck this up…”
LABiker
Thanks, Ralph Nader.
jefft452
I pray dear Lord for Jesus’ sake,
Give us this day a T-Bone Steak,
Hallowed be thy Holy name,
But don’t forget to send the same.
Oh, hear my humble cry, Oh Lord,
And send us down some decent board,
Brown gravy and some German fried,
With sliced tomatoes on the side.
Observe me on my bended legs,
I’m asking you for Ham and Eggs,
And if thou havest custard pies,
I like, dear Lord, the largest size.
Oh, hear my cry, All Mighty Host,
I quite forgot the Quail on Toast,
Let your kindly heart be stirred,
And stuff some oysters in that bird.
Dear Lord, we know your Holy wish,
On Friday we must have a fish,
Our flesh is weak and spirit stale,
You better make that fish a whale.
Oh, hear me Lord, remove these “Dogs,”
These sausages of powder’d logs,
Your bull beef hash and bearded Snouts.
Take them to hell or thereabouts.
With Alum bread and Pressed-Beef butts,
Dear Lord you damn near ruin’d my guts,
Your white-wash milk and Oleorine,
I wish to Christ I’d never seen.
Oh, hear me Lord, I am praying still,
But if you won’t, our union will,
Put pork chops on the bill of fare,
And starve no workers anywhere.
Anya
People who were screeming about “both parties are the same” in 2000, are directly responsible for all the horrible decisions made by these jackasses. Two of those seats would’ve been filled by Gore nominees if it was not for those asshats. Oh, how I hate purity assholes! IMO, they’re far worse than wingnuts.
D58826
Exactly what is a ‘Ceremonial prayer’? Now every bible thumping school board will label their morning indoctrination ‘Ceremonial prayer’.
Several years ago a Navy chaplain revised to drop the words ‘in Jesus’ name’ when he lead a prayer in a non-denominational setting. He argued that as a Christian he was obligated to use that formulation. The Navy disagreed and he left the service. Now does anyone think that if he lead the prayer at this town council he would be saying a ‘ Ceremonial prayer’.
I rather suspect that this is a tip-off, if there ever was a doubt, that the Christian 5 will find that a piece of paper, aka a corporate charter, has the same religious freedom as a living breathing human being (well at least the Christian variety)
Mustang Bobby
Call Amish tech support and see if they can help.
Hungry Joe
Say what you want about “ceremonial,” about “small beer.” But as a Jew and an atheist*, I feel as if my country just slapped me in the face.
* Not a contradiction, I assure you.
D58826
Even if, as the dissenter’s suggested, the town council invited leaders of all the faith communities to lead prayers (and no bigot objected to those terrorist Mooooslims) you still have a government official deciding what is a religion and what is a proper format for prayer. Will the town council allow the prayer of some group that starts out by gutting a chicken? As Jefferson said in his wall of separation letter – faith is between a man and his god however he may perceiver that god. Given that the people pushing prayer claim that government can’t make water run down hill then how is it qualified to judge the faith of one person vs another.
charluckles
@Kay:
“Although I do not suggest that the implication is intentional, I am concerned that at least some readers will take these hypotheticals as a warning that this is where today’s decision leads—to a country in which religious minorities are denied the equal benefits of citizenship.”
This statement just blows me away. How does one become a supreme court justice (or hell even just live) in this day and age without understanding why minorities might be more than justifiably concerned about the equal benefits of citizenship in the face of such a ruling?
greennotGreen
There are many abominations tied up in this decision, and one of the worst is the harm done to the already seriously damaged practice of Christianity. (You know, there are some good people who are Christians, although I myself am a pagan.) The idea that something so serious and personal and private as communing with the Christian idea of the Creator, an all-knowing, all-powerful being who knows your needs before you even speak them, should be simply “ceremonial” is to treat religious belief which a lack of respect unmatched by any of the more outspoken atheists at this website.
bk
@Spinoza Is My Co-pilot:
I’m pretty sure that the First Amendment doesn’t apply to baseball games. Otherwise, great point.
LanceThruster
Dear Glob, protect me from your followers.
Matt McIrvin
I sort of kind of did this once, by accident. Well, not so much leading a prayer as giving a sermon.
Back in the 1980s, public high schools still had baccalaureate services on school grounds. At mine, the graduating senior with the highest grade-point average got to give a speech at graduation, and the student with the second-highest got to give a speech at baccalaureate. And #2 was me.
I’d heard vaguely that baccalaureate was traditionally a religious service. I treated this information by ignoring it, and my sermon was a secular speech about the wonders of the universe that was sort of warmed-over Carl Sagan. I heard later that it pissed off some people, though nobody got mad at me to my face. There was a guy on after me who was some kind of Bible-banging evangelical youth pastor. Well, I’d said my piece.
tybee
@raven:
friend of mine who grew up on jekyll, said to try this guy:
Brooks Good
9122308957
different-church-lady
@joel hanes: That is metaphysically absurd man! How can I know what you hear?
Jeffro
Only way to possibly do this in a “ceremonial”, non-1st-Amendment-violatin’ way is to have a moment of silence. Everyone says their own prayer to their own god (or not), silently, and we’re done.
Happens every day in schools (which will be next with this Christians-first, Christian-prayers-only nonsense).
jake the antisoshul soshulist (FYWP)
I suppose I would start with Cthulhu Ftagn, but YMMV.
martianchronic
@Matt McIrvin: Overtly religious baccalaureates still happen on school grounds in the Midwest – leastwise, I attended one maybe five or six years ago. The student speaker went all warrior for Jesus, speaking about her faith and goals as a Christian in the most militaristic way conceivable. It was “Onward Christian Soldier” dialed up to defcon. I seemed to be alone in finding the whole thing appalling.
Bill Murray
@Anya: learn some math. Nader was at best the 4th largest contributor to Gore’s loss. You’ve got SCOTUS, cheating Republicans and the ~150,000 Florida 1996 Democratic Clinton voters that voted for Bush in 2000 all way more important than Nader’s effect, which was around 10,000 votes. Why you hate the people that voted for Nader (most of whom wouldn’t have voted for Gore in any case) more than the actual problem groups shows you aren’t very good at thinking. But keep up your blind rage against people who might be your allies, I’m sure they are far more likely to vote with you that way. I know my mom always said “you catch more flies with vinegar than with honey”
Uncle Ebeneezer
How does an atheist lead a prayer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSU9lVTjlks
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Hungry Joe: Exactly. Because these things (prayer, “God” language on currency and in Pledge) are all about the majority patting themselves on the back over their assumed moral superiority and having a “who’s with us?” moment for determining who are the interlopers in the room. I remember the way the lone atheist girl in my home-room class who refused to say the Pledge was treated by her peers, and I’ve read numerous accounts of adults living in middle America who report the same kind of othering from their fine Christian community based on dealings in the public sphere (school boards, local government etc.) It’s marginalization plain and simple. And it always amazes me that so many people think it’s no big deal for the government that is supposed to represent everyone to do something that effectively marginalizes a minority. If someone proposed that we open public meetings by doing something that marginalized gays, blacks, women, the disabled etc., I would think that most left-minded people would feel that was something worth fighting rather than just dismissing the concerns of the marginalized group because other, bigger problems exist.
These devout politicians and SCOTUS judges are fully free to gather with fellow believers and pray their hearts out as much as they like. They don’t want that. They want to bring their prayers into the government sphere precisely for the symbolic endorsement that a government building brings.
Robert Waldmann
“Oh you five robed twits will you please please get a clue”
I’m an atheist and that is my prayer.
I can pray to all sorts of things which I actaully believe exist.
Hail John Cole, not so full of grace. Continue to enlighten us with your snark. and also dog photos.
sm*t cl*de
Buggrit, someone has cited Zelazny;s suggestion already.
brantl
We lead upstanding lives, that’s as close as we come to prayer.
Chet
Oh, Lord…
Ooh, You are so big…
So absolutely huge…
Gosh, we’re all really impressed down here, I can tell You…
Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying…
And barefaced flattery…
But You are so strong, and, well, just so… super…
Fan-tastic.
Amen.
Wally Ballou
“And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”
Good advice. I just wish I could remember who said it.
wuzzat
“How the fuck does an atheist lead a prayer?”
“Christ on a cracker, let’s get this meeting started.”
Spinoza Is My Co-pilot
@bk:
No shit, Sherlock.
My point in making an analogy about deliberately sitting out the jingoistic two-minute hate of “God Bless America” during the 7th inning stretch was pretty obviously in reference to my 4th paragraph, which begins, “However, if it really bothers you so much, say something the next time you’re at some town meeting opened ‘In the name of Jesus…”
Meaning, if you feel slapped in the face or made to feel second-class by this asinine SCOTUS ruling (and I very much appreciate that many feel exactly that way) then you have every right to push back against majoritarian bullying and what this is really about (as Comrade Dread so perceptively pointed out in comment# 101): “the rah rah American civic religion where God is our co-pilot and thinks we’re awesome…”. And right there, right when they’re slapping you with their jingoistic, Christianist bullshit.
Sure, if you do that you’re liable to experience some (or even a lot of) opprobrium from many of your fellow-citizens who are all, “In the name of the Lord, ‘Murica, fuck yeah!” Much like sitting out the appalling “God Bless America” during the 7th inning stretch.
I’m not saying the 7th inning stretch is the same as a town meeting, nor that the First Amendment pertains to baseball games.
I’m talking about the fear of disapproval, and having the courage of your convictions in the face of that anyway.
At least you most likely won’t get a beer poured on you at a town meeting.