• Menu
  • Skip to primary navigation
  • Skip to main content
  • Skip to primary sidebar

Before Header

  • About Us
  • Lexicon
  • Contact Us
  • Our Store
  • ↑
  • ↓
  • ←
  • →

Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Only Democrats have agency, apparently.

Republicans: slavery is when you own me. freedom is when I own you.

Their boy Ron is an empty plastic cup that will never know pudding.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

Polls are now a reliable indicator of what corporate Republicans want us to think.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

I have other things to bitch about but those will have to wait.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

“When somebody takes the time to draw up a playbook, they’re gonna use it.”

Today in our ongoing national embarrassment…

A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.

People identifying as christian while ignoring christ and his teachings is a strange thing indeed.

Democracy cannot function without a free press.

In my day, never was longer.

Hi god, it’s us. Thanks a heap, you’re having a great week and it’s only Thursday!

It’s pointless to bring up problems that can only be solved with a time machine.

Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.

Let me file that under fuck it.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

The unpunished coup was a training exercise.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

Republicans are radicals, not conservatives.

Prediction: the gop will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

This blog will pay for itself.

Mobile Menu

  • Seattle Meet-up Post
  • 2025 Activism
  • Targeted Political Fundraising
  • Donate with Venmo, Zelle & PayPal
  • Site Feedback
  • War in Ukraine
  • Submit Photos to On the Road
  • Politics
  • On The Road
  • Open Threads
  • Topics
  • COVID-19
  • Authors
  • About Us
  • Contact Us
  • Lexicon
  • Our Store
  • Politics
  • Open Threads
  • 2025 Activism
  • Garden Chats
  • On The Road
  • Targeted Fundraising!
You are here: Home / Books / Wednesday Morning Open Thread: Gaming of Thrones

Wednesday Morning Open Thread: Gaming of Thrones

by Anne Laurie|  June 4, 20145:48 am| 64 Comments

This post is in: Books, Open Threads, Popular Culture

FacebookTweetEmail

george rr martin v twitter

From NYMag‘s Vulture blog:

George R.R. Martin’s longtime editor Anne Groell recently answered some fan questions about her editing process, Martin’s writing timeline, and the future of the A Song of Ice and Fire series. The big takeaway? Groell thinks there might be more than seven books…

More at the link, and it’s worth reading the comments (even apart from the obvious “What — Martin has an editor?!?”)

***********
Apart from the speculation, what’s on the midweek agenda?

FacebookTweetEmail
Previous Post: « Late Night Moment of Zen
Next Post: Oh, Dear Lord, Three Things I Pray »

Reader Interactions

64Comments

  1. 1.

    Tommy

    June 4, 2014 at 6:08 am

    I got a question for readers of the series. I bought all the books, but not read them yet. Huge fan of the HBO show and a reader. I wanted to support the writer. It seems if my reading of the show is correct, HBO will soon catch up to the last book. How is that going to work out? Seems HBO is making shows faster then he is writing books.

  2. 2.

    Raven

    June 4, 2014 at 6:17 am

    Last day of our conference at Stone Mountain! Got to do setup , tear down and tech support for 6 rooms with computers and projectors that were all different and with crazy ass logins! Nice setting though. This is a huge park and it is interesting that there are so many African American folks exercising on the trails below this big ass Confederate monument .

  3. 3.

    Tommy

    June 4, 2014 at 6:34 am

    @Raven: Had to Google Stone Mountain. Made your comment about African Americans and a Confederate monument make total sense.

  4. 4.

    PsiFighter37

    June 4, 2014 at 6:43 am

    I bet if he decides to write an eighth book, his fans will give up any hope that he ever finishes the series.

  5. 5.

    Raven

    June 4, 2014 at 6:49 am

    @Tommy: Yea,there used robe klan rallies here and the town had klan shop into the 60’s . It really a great park,Marriott bought it from the state a few years back. Two golf courses, a huge lake and the mountain. I hiked up it yesterday at sunrise and it was stunning. Flickr won’t post from the iPhone so I’ll put some up later when I get home.

  6. 6.

    R-Jud

    June 4, 2014 at 6:49 am

    @Tommy: Numerous interviews with the showrunners reveal that GRRM has given them an outline of how the stories end. They’ve also had access to the manuscript as he’s producing it.

    Also, he writes one episode a season for them, so he’s there in the writers’ room saying things like “oh, Character X can’t do that, because he needs to do Y later on.”

    I watched the series in a massive binge while I was sick with pneumonia back in March, and then read the books. I think the show is better overall, and I don’t really care if he doesn’t finish the books at this point. I’m confident the show will come to a satisfying end in 2017 or so.

  7. 7.

    Raven

    June 4, 2014 at 6:50 am

    Used to be.

  8. 8.

    srv

    June 4, 2014 at 6:53 am

    Anyone heard Deep Purple play in the last decade?

    Have an EU friend coming who wants to see them and wondering if they’ll live up to my memories.

  9. 9.

    Hillary Rettig

    June 4, 2014 at 6:56 am

    In case anyone’s interested, I wrote a post on the Amazon-Hachette debacle from the standpoint of a successful indie published author and Amazon supporter.

    http://www.hillaryrettig.com/2014/05/30/amazon-writers-best-friend/

    Welcome any concise comments, critiques, or questions. If you’re interested in indie publishing, ask away!

  10. 10.

    Schlemizel

    June 4, 2014 at 6:56 am

    @srv:
    I just learned that King Crimson is making one last show, I wonder the same thing about that bunch.

    Sometimes its better just to live on the memories I think.

  11. 11.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 4, 2014 at 7:03 am

    Well, it looks like Obama is going to go after all the America loving, God fearing, pale skinned Patriots ™ just like Wayne LaPierre warned all those years ago. I think I will just sit back and watch the right wing freakout today.

  12. 12.

    Raven

    June 4, 2014 at 7:05 am

    @Schlemizel: oh god! The Palm Beach Pop Festival, Nov 69. http://www.oldrockphoto.com/palmbeach.html

    They were the house band and played 3 times a day! The Court of the Crimson King is burned into my brain. So is Johhny& Winter and Janis playing together.

  13. 13.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 4, 2014 at 7:06 am

    @srv: Hmmmph… Did they live up to them when they weren’t memories? ;-)

  14. 14.

    PurpleGirl

    June 4, 2014 at 7:18 am

    It may surprise people that GRRM has an editor. This doesn’t mean the editor asks for any changing to his text; he needs the editor to sheperd the manuscript through the production process and get all the tasks involved coordinated. (Note: I haven’t read the link yet but this is based on my experience in publishing.)

  15. 15.

    mai naem

    June 4, 2014 at 7:20 am

    Am I the only person who’s surprised at the Bergdahl coverage/outrage of the day? Michael Smerconish, on his show, was going on and on about Bob Bergdahl’s “Follow your conscience” last response email to his son’s email. Apparently “follow your conscience” means ‘Conscientious Objector” in Smerconish’s pea brain. How many military scandals might have been avoided if the parents of some soldier had told them to follow their conscience? Also, Smerc mentioned the Hippy Dippy part of Bob Bergdahls life. Anybody wish some of these idiots have their kids taken hostage by some militant jihadists solely to watch their reactions?

  16. 16.

    randy khan

    June 4, 2014 at 7:22 am

    @Tommy: They won’t catch up to the books that are out until at least the end of next season, and book 6 ought to be out by then. (I may have to eat my words on that one, but all indications are that it will be out.) If it really ends with book 7, it probably will be neck and neck.

  17. 17.

    Botsplainer

    June 4, 2014 at 7:29 am

    @mai naem:

    Smerconish blows in the wind and is still occasionally influenced by the emanations from the right wing puke funnel. Eventually, he’ll come around and acknowledge that everything that spews from it is a fucking lie.

  18. 18.

    Ash Can

    June 4, 2014 at 7:34 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: I certainly hope they start flailing around over this today, and get distracted away from Bowe Bergdahl and his family. The date on this story is yesterday, though, so I hope it’s not flying under their radar.

  19. 19.

    RAVEN

    June 4, 2014 at 7:34 am

    Remember what they did to Bobby Garwood. http://www.3rdmarines.net/Garwood_Overview.htm

  20. 20.

    mike in dc

    June 4, 2014 at 7:36 am

    Tienanmen. June 4, 1989. Take a moment today.

  21. 21.

    Botsplainer

    June 4, 2014 at 7:37 am

    Guffaw:

    http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/tim-tebow-keeps-training-nfl/2014/06/03/id/574821/?promo_code=1z6kyuy4&utm_source=Talking_Points_Memo&utm_medium=nmwidget&utm_campaign=widgetphase1

    Poor Timmy Tebow – training for something he’ll never get again.

    Has he gotten laid yet, or is he still wearing Veggie Tales underoos when mommy tucks him in?

  22. 22.

    Sherparick

    June 4, 2014 at 7:38 am

    He apparently has done the outlines to ASOIF to the end with the fate of each character known (which is why GRRM = God/gods in Westeros) and has shared this with Benioff and Weiss so they can write the HBO series in congruence. Because of budget and constraints of the medium B&W have already had some big plot diversions from the books and I expect more to continue and we book readers are going to be more and more in the same boat as the series only folks about what comes next (for instance, next year I expect to see know the outcome of at least one, if not two major battles that were left hanging at the end of DWD). Right now for instance, I don’t know what will happen with Aarya and the Hound’s characters, or Gendry’s character, or Brienne’s and Pod’s characters in the remaining two shows (parts of FFC and DWD have already been put into this season, while the Red Viper’s character who dominated this season was a relatively minor character in the last chapters of SOS). So it looks like B&W plan to finish up the series with three more seasons (unless HBO decides to entice them to stretch it to 8). (P.S. Martin is a fine writer, but he needed a stronger editor and also it is to bad he did not learn Tolkein’s trick of doing flashback and story back fill which allowed Tolkein to cram 80 years of events into the first two chapters of LOTR (from the end if the Hobbit when Bilbo is 51 through his 111th birthday party (Frodo’s 32d) to when Frodo starts out from Bag End in September on his 50th birthday with the Ring. Frankly, Martin has lot of wandering and repetition in both FFC and DWD with limited character development.

  23. 23.

    Botsplainer

    June 4, 2014 at 7:42 am

    @Ash Can:

    The Idaho locals have been really surprised at the vitriol and the number of calls by fat, home bound old white people in rascal scooters canceling their vacations to a winter ski resort.

    Those Idaho folks must be socialistical commie libruls. Either that, or they’re reaping what they’ve sowed on an electoral basis for decades.

    Welcome to the party, motherfuckers. This is the environment you’ve enabled.

  24. 24.

    srv

    June 4, 2014 at 7:47 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: I remember that they were loud.

  25. 25.

    Walker

    June 4, 2014 at 7:53 am

    @randy khan:

    It has always been at least 7 books, at least since the “Meerenese Knot” — also known as “I am not ready for Dany to make it to Westeros so what they hell do I do here?” They will catch up; GRRM is in denial.

    Honestly, I am excited about next season. The series goes downhill after book 3 (the end of this season is the end of book 3) that they are already going to have to be creative with the source material. I want to see what they are going to do.

  26. 26.

    Ash Can

    June 4, 2014 at 7:55 am

    @Botsplainer: Yes, I saw those news stories. While I’m sorry to see that happening to innocent, oblivious local CoC people, I hope it’s opening some eyes regarding just what the right wing is all about these days.

    And as far as Tebow is concerned, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him caught with the proverbial live boy or dead girl one of these days.

  27. 27.

    srv

    June 4, 2014 at 7:56 am

    @Schlemizel: Well, I’m a Levin era guy (other than one earlier show), and always happy to see him. Levin, Mastaletto and CG Trio put on a good show a few years back.

  28. 28.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 4, 2014 at 7:56 am

    @srv: Ohhhh… That was that concert. There was a lot of smoke too, wasn’t there? ;-)

  29. 29.

    srv

    June 4, 2014 at 8:02 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: Everything was smokey & loud before I was ten.

    Bit more reserved when I grew up. Real DP fans don’t consider that era the real stuff.

    edit: band fart

  30. 30.

    Elizabelle

    June 4, 2014 at 8:05 am

    @R-Jud:

    Great to see you here. You’ve been missed, and I forget who was asking after you recently.

    Sick with pneumonia, eh? Hope all is well now.

    How fares the Bean?

  31. 31.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 4, 2014 at 8:09 am

    @srv: I think when things stopped being so smoky was when I stopped going to concerts. Seeing as I didn’t smoke dope I don’t think that was the reason. My tastes in live music just changed.

  32. 32.

    Baud

    June 4, 2014 at 8:12 am

    @Botsplainer:

    I hear The Citadel is considering moving from Idaho to a less socialist state.

  33. 33.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 4, 2014 at 8:19 am

    @Baud: Oh Dog, Not them too. This state already has more than 3 times it’s per capita share of racists.

  34. 34.

    Gene108

    June 4, 2014 at 8:47 am

    @PsiFighter37:

    See Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time series. Author died. Publisher put together his notes and had another writer finish the series in one or two more books.

    I am scared Martin is heading in that direction.

  35. 35.

    rikyrah

    June 4, 2014 at 8:49 am

    Black dentists complain over TennCare removal
    The Tennessean 9:05 p.m. EDT June 3, 2014

    Black dentists from across Tennessee told a group of lawmakers Tuesday that they had been treated unfairly by the company that administers the state’s contract to provide dental services to the poor.

    Several dentists said they and their colleagues had been purged from the list of providers approved to treat patients through TennCare, the state’s Medicaid program, shortly after a new contract was awarded last year to DentaQuest, a Boston-based provider.

    They and representatives for the National Dental Association, a trade group for black dentists, said dentists never were offered an explanation for why they were removed or an opportunity to appeal the decisions. But some said the purge had destroyed their practices and risked the health of the often poor TennCare patients they see.

    http://www.wbir.com/story/news/local/2014/06/03/black-dentists-complain-over-tenncare-removal/9935603/

  36. 36.

    AdamK

    June 4, 2014 at 8:58 am

    @Gene108: I just hope Brandon Sanderson is keeping his pencil sharp. Martin’s slow, distracted, and old, and the last couple of books are a mess.

  37. 37.

    Tripod

    June 4, 2014 at 9:07 am

    @Gene108:

    It’s worked pretty well for the HBO continuity.

    Hire some capable ghost writers, hand them a plot outline and the character through arcs and quit trolling the readership.

  38. 38.

    Gin & Tonic

    June 4, 2014 at 9:11 am

    @RAVEN: I’ve been thinking of him ever since this thing started.

  39. 39.

    Jack the Second

    June 4, 2014 at 9:18 am

    @Gene108: I looked up the actuarial tables for a man GRRM’s age. I don’t remember the exact numbers, but given his pace of writing he’s got a pretty decent chance of surviving seven books, but eight or more gets pretty dicey.

  40. 40.

    gussie

    June 4, 2014 at 9:21 am

    Hey, Hillary:

    I think that’s pretty silly! Particularly the Stockholm Syndrome thing. I make more money from traditional publishing that I make from self-publishing online. Hell, I sometimes make more money from traditional publishers than they make from me.

    I’m not gonna claim that FSG or Abrams or S&S are paragons of pro-labor practice, but Amazon is Walmart. All these self-publishers who are hitching their wagons to Walmart make me very, very nervous. At this moment, Amazon _is_ epublishing. They’ve captured an entire market–and they’ve made extremely clear that once they are secure in their position, they will start extracting every penny possible.

    But just in terms of finances, I don’t see it. I can make $15,000 from a traditional publisher without much effort: and they’ll pay for editing, marketing, and lunches. My chances of making $15,000 from e-publishing strikes me as vanishingly small.

  41. 41.

    rikyrah

    June 4, 2014 at 9:32 am

    Natalie Cole: An Unforgettable Dream House

    The singer recalls the English Tudor home her dad, Nat King Cole, bought in 1948 in a predominantly white section of Los Angeles—triggering a wave of racial hostility but a childhood of fond memories

    The house where I grew up in the Hancock Park section of Los Angeles was like a dream—even though my family faced threats after my father bought it in August 1948. At the time, many homeowners in white areas of Los Angeles refused to sell to blacks and other minorities, and Hancock Park was predominantly white and wealthy. But as a young girl, I was oblivious to all that. I felt like royalty living in our home.

    I was born in 1950, so my first memories of our English Tudor brick house were filtered through my mid-’50s childhood world. I don’t think my dad had a clue that the neighborhood was going to have such a hostile reaction to us living there. Both of my parents were celebrities and exceptional artists. After all, my dad was Nat King Cole, one of the country’s most popular pianists and singers, and my mom, Maria Hawkins Cole, had been a singer in Duke Ellington’s band. She wanted a nice house after they married in ’48 and my dad had the money to buy it for his new bride. His money was as good as anyone else’s, and he figured that would settle it.

    But it didn’t. When my mother, father and older sister Carole moved in they became the first black family in the area. Apparently my father’s real-estate agent had a light-skinned black woman put a binder on the house and then sign it over to my dad. The neighborhood was furious when they realized what had happened. Despite cash offers, threats, a lawsuit and racist signs on our lawn, we stayed put. Little by little, many of the neighbors calmed down once they realized we were a great family. My mom was a natural interior decorator and she turned the house into a symbol of elegance and beauty, and my father’s fame kept growing in the ’50s. It was impossible not to love him.

    We lived in an interesting neighborhood. On one street were the Van de Kamps, who made their fortune in baked goods. On the others were the Gettys and Shells of oil fame, and the Vons and Ralphs, who pioneered supermarket chains. My best friend was a daughter in the Ralph family, and we sold Girl Scout cookies together. I got along with all the girls in the neighborhood. As kids, we had no clue about the racial stuff that seemed to preoccupy adults. We just enjoyed our life as kids.

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/natalie-cole-an-unforgettable-dream-house-1401298798?mod=WSJ_GoogleNews

  42. 42.

    rikyrah

    June 4, 2014 at 9:43 am

    War on voting follows GOP inaction on rights

    Rachel Maddow reviews how Republicans failed to follow up on promises to fix the Voting Rights Act after it was gutted by the Supreme Court, helping usher in a new Republican war on voting with new ID laws, restrictions and intimidation tactics.

    http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/watch/war-on-voting-follows-gop-inaction-on-rights-273215043693

  43. 43.

    rikyrah

    June 4, 2014 at 9:48 am

    Oregon insurer proposes double-digit premium cut

    By Elise Viebeck – 06/03/14 06:05 PM EDT

    One health insurance company on Oregon’s ObamaCare exchange is proposing to lower premiums an average of 16 percent next year, according to a report.

    The other two carriers — Regence BlueCross Blue Shield and Kaiser — are proposing negligible increases of less than 5 percent and 0.2 percent, respectively.

    The rates were reported by the Portland Business Journal on Tuesday. They come as state officials around the country begin to shed light on what consumers might pay on ObamaCare’s exchanges next year.

    http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/208127-oregon-insurer-proposes-double-digit-rate-decrease#.U48dyHnAL5Y.twitter#ixzz33g6Lqdmt

  44. 44.

    R-Jud

    June 4, 2014 at 9:56 am

    @Elizabelle: Thanks! The Bean fares well. Nearly done with her first year of school; she’s been loving it!

  45. 45.

    winnie

    June 4, 2014 at 10:21 am

    We are definitely moving beyond the books with Sansa and for the Vale next season book readers and Unsullied alike will be in the same boat.

  46. 46.

    Hillary Rettig

    June 4, 2014 at 10:23 am

    @gussie: Thanks for your comment. You don’t seem to address any of the points in my piece, except to say your own experience has been different.

    I don’t doubt that, but if your experience were typical, the Big 5 (or however many there are now) publishers wouldn’t be in the mess they’re in. The reality is that many, many authors feel the traditional system didn’t work for them. This is not just wannabes but successful authors like Barry Eisler, who famously gave up a $500K contract with St. Martin’s to go indie.

    It also includes many authors who are happily selling books that publishers gave up on.

    >. I can make $15,000 from a traditional publisher without much effort: and they’ll pay for editing, marketing, and lunches. My chances of making $15,000 from e-publishing strikes me as vanishingly small.

    I would like to hear more about this “without much effort” part. (Including, esp. what you publish.) Also, while your chances of earning $15K from epublishing may be vanishingly small (makes me curious about what you publish and whether that’s really true), I quoted a study that showed that many authors are indeed doing just that. (Including me.)

    And the situation with the traditional pubs just gets worse and worse as more authors and talented people flee what is clearly a sinking ship.

    As I noted, Amazon’s labor practices are deplorable, and, yeah, I”m not happy about partnering with that. But as I note, the labor problem is much bigger than Amazon. Anyone who does business with Apple and Target – to name just a couple – is supporting equally bad practices, just not here in the US, (Plus the whole Target anti-gay, anti-union thing.)

  47. 47.

    RSA

    June 4, 2014 at 10:45 am

    @Tripod:

    Hire some capable ghost writers, hand them a plot outline and the character through arcs and quit trolling the readership.

    I wonder what Martin’s contract looks like? I can imagine that HBO would have wanted some guarantee that the series wouldn’t be hung up waiting for Martin to finish another book, but I can see Martin not wanting HBO to take the story in new directions because they’ve run out of published material.

  48. 48.

    gussie

    June 4, 2014 at 10:48 am

    Well, yeah–all I can talk about is my experience, and to a lesser degree those of other writers I know!

    I didn’t dig deep into your links, and mostly just wanted to chat. I did see things like this, though, at one of your links: “E-book earnings represent roughly 64% of a traditionally published fiction author’s income.” I’d be shocked if that were true. I’ve made a living as a writer for 15 years. My wife does the same. I have five or six friends who do it, too, with varying degrees of success. And 90% of all our income is advances. Maybe, on some theoretical level, those are advances against ebook earnings? Not sure how that’d work. But in actual fact, our books largely don’t earn out (I mean, I get a couple hundred bucks here and there), and that doesn’t matter. The advance is the bottom line. And by paying me an advance–as well as paying for editing, proofing, art, etc.–the publishing is assuming much of the risk.

    _That_ is what publishers offer. And they usually do a good job with gatekeeping. I mean, there isn’t a single competent publisher in the world who would’ve touched 50 Shades before it started selling, because it’s not professional-quality work, so clearly there are massive blind spots … but I’m not sure that dismissing 50 Shades is such a bad thing. As opposed to, y’know, promoting it.

    Don’t get me wrong: I hate publishers as entities (the people who work for them, largely, are the book-lovingest group you can find!) and publishing in general. It’s a deeply stupid industry. But the rise of self-published ebooks strikes me as very much like the rise of home schooling. That is, some people do a terrific job with it! They are wonderful, they have all the tools and knowledge of public schools, and do a better job than any teacher.

    But the vast majority is people who don’t want eggheaded experts–with their fancy book-learning, and their challenging tests that are way too easy to fail–messing with their precious baby. It’s a sort of dunderheaded populism.

    However! I definitely should’ve said that I write fiction. And I don’t know anything about nonfiction, really. Or about people who are heavily invested in self-promotion. I don’t like people. I don’t like promotion. I don’t like anything except writing.

    I write novels for adults and children. I’ve gotten advances from mid-six figures to low five. I’ve made about a million dollars in publishing–which sounds great, except it’s been over 15 years. You’ve never heard of me. _Nobody_has heard of me.

    And I don’t doubt that some people do extremely well with ebooks. I just think it’s like the lottery (and some of the numbers, I suspect, are not true–or are fudged). You hear about the woman who made $40,000,000, not about the 40,000,000 people who lost.

  49. 49.

    hildebrand

    June 4, 2014 at 10:48 am

    @Schlemizel: The only problem (as one who started listening to King Crimson in the early 80s) is that Adrian Belew is not in the line-up. I know Fripp is King Crimson, but Belew made it more fun and adventurous.

  50. 50.

    Lurking Canadian

    June 4, 2014 at 11:03 am

    @RSA: I saw an interview with Martin once in which he said there was no reason to worry about the show passing the books because there is so much awesome in Feast for Crows. He even suggested there was some material he had left out that the TV show could use as padding.

    ‘Cause everybody knows if there’s anything TV audiences like more than slogging through a ruined countryside counting the burned farms, murdered children and rape victims, it’s sweeping up the leavings from an author’s cutting room floor..

  51. 51.

    Walker

    June 4, 2014 at 11:08 am

    @Gene108:

    And those books were better than the middle books of the series by the original author. It helped that the author they picked was both an established author (not a ghostwriter) and a superfan.

    There has been a lot of discussion on who such a person would be for GRRM. The consensus seems to be Joe Abercrombie would be the best choice.

  52. 52.

    Comrade Mary

    June 4, 2014 at 11:44 am

    Open thread? OK.

    “We’re rolling out #condomTO bit by bit. Why? Because it’s more fun that way!”

    Moar here.

  53. 53.

    Hillary Rettig

    June 4, 2014 at 11:45 am

    @gussie: Your experience is actually the obverse of mine and many others. I actually think trad publishing is the crapshoot, for reasons I explain in my piece.

    Many who fail at indie publishing do so either because they’re not good writers or marketers. Let’s leave the former group out because they woudn’t succeed traditionally either. re marketing, I teach that and wrote about it for Konrath’s blog:

    http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2013/09/guest-post-by-hillary-rettig.html

    It’s a lot of work, but you can approach it from different angles and leverage your particular skill set. And it’s a lot less work than failing, or (god forbid!) having to keep your day job. (That sounds flip but I mean it.) Your home schooling analogy may fail because, even though many parents learn they’re not up to it, many also learn they are–and that the investment of time and money is well worth it because of the profound benefit they perceive it to have for the kids.

    I am painting with an overly broad brush – I know traditional publishing works for some. I’m happy it works for you. At some later date, it might work for me. But it doesn’t work for more and more writers.

    I think the gatekeeper defense of traditional publishing is actually the worse defense. If they were such good gatekeepers, Sturgeon’s Law wouldn’t apply. (And preemptively, I know there’s a lot of bad indie stuff published; I’m not saying there isn’t, only that publishers are not great gatekeepers.)

    When I look in the bookstores, I see acres and acres of the same basic stuff. Someone gets a home run with a memoir; next year, memoirs out the wazoo. And that doesn’t even count the numbers of good books that don’t happen because Snooki, etc., gets a million-dollar advance.

    >> “E-book earnings represent roughly 64% of a traditionally published fiction author’s income.”
    Yeah, I find this stat suspect (mostly because it’s meaningless), too.

    I’m truly happy for your success. Unfortunately, I know “midlist” writers who had a solid record of success who got dumped by their publishers without a thought. In the old days, there was a relationship, reciprocity, partnership – but for many writers those days are long gone.

  54. 54.

    RSA

    June 4, 2014 at 1:06 pm

    @Lurking Canadian:

    ‘Cause everybody knows if there’s anything TV audiences like more than slogging through a ruined countryside counting the burned farms, murdered children and rape victims, it’s sweeping up the leavings from an author’s cutting room floor..

    Heh. I’ve read all the books, but with decreasing interest the entire way, in part for the way you describe things.

  55. 55.

    winnie

    June 4, 2014 at 1:32 pm

    Yeah Martin has clearly been in denial about the inevitability of the show catching the books. Frankly I’m relieved we have the show to give us some closure about how all this ends. And grateful that the
    Show won’t be indulging in so much filler and irrelevant sub plots.

  56. 56.

    Bob In Portland

    June 4, 2014 at 1:38 pm

    The “anti-terror” campaign in Ukraine continues. It’s been going on for two months now and the Kiev forces have not yet managed to recapture one city. People are dying. Ukraine’s jets have fired 150 rockets into Lugansk.

    Has Obama offered to negotiate a peace conference? No, he has promised more military supplies. So our nation’s official policy is to continue to kill people in eastern Ukraine until they stop killing people in eastern Ukraine.

    Does anyone think that Russia is going to give back Crimea?

  57. 57.

    Trollhattan

    June 4, 2014 at 2:08 pm

    @Bob In Portland:
    Hodor! Hodor! Hodor!

    Damn, this is too easy.

  58. 58.

    Pogonip

    June 4, 2014 at 3:03 pm

    @Bob In Portland: Hodor.

  59. 59.

    gussie

    June 4, 2014 at 4:12 pm

    @Hillary Rettig: Oh, god, I’ve been dumped by 5 publishers! Don’t think I haven’t been dumped! And I’ve dumped three agents. But it’s not really ‘dumping,’ any more than I dump one restaurant when I start going to another. We weren’t in love; we just worked together on a project, until it ended.

    And I certainly wouldn’t want to try to defend publishing as an intelligent business model. It’s crap. Sturgeon’s Law certainly applies … though I’m not sure you can really say ‘well, if you ignore all the indie books that are shittily written, they’re as good as published books!’ And instead of looking at the huge crappy midlist (aka, my home), what about actually excellence? The last two books I read were The Savage Detectives and The End of Mr. Y: perhaps ‘indie publishing’ has produced a few novels which come within a thousand miles of those. But I doubt it.

    In fact, here’s a question: what are the best novels that have been indie published in the past three years?

  60. 60.

    Hillary Rettig

    June 4, 2014 at 4:26 pm

    @gussie: I will have to punt on “best” because I’m not reading a lot of fiction these days. I also think it’s a bit of an apples and oranges comparison since trad publishing remains bigger and is decades older–it’s not surprising that it has a bit of an edge in some areas. I’m sure that, soon enough, the indies will produce their literary geniuses. (btw, if you check out “self publishing” on wikipedia, you’ll see that this has historically been true.)

    Some trad publishing best sellers, like Lace Reader and Still Alice, started out indie. I don’t know about their quality, though.

  61. 61.

    gussie

    June 4, 2014 at 4:40 pm

    @Hillary Rettig: That’s true. There hasn’t been enough time to really judge. But traditional publishing -did- give us Maya Angelou and George RR Martin and Percival Everett and Elmore Leonard and Cynthia Ozick and Jonathan Lethem and on and on and on and on and on and on into the thousands. Just recently, we got Goon Squad, Bernadette, Gone Girl. So the 10% that’s not crap? It’s _really_ not crap. Despite all the idiocy, something very smart happens, which I haven’t seen elsewhere.

    (I should say that editors, right now, are _dying_ to buy books that have been indie published, and are doing well. I’m seriously considering indie publishing one of my unsold novels, and paying for fifty thousand sock puppets to buy it at a penny a pop, so I can say I’ve sold that many copies. Are there systems in place to prevent that sort of gaming? Are there ‘indie publishing consultants’ who offer hand-holding through the process?)

  62. 62.

    Hillary Rettig

    June 4, 2014 at 4:58 pm

    >editors, right now, are _dying_ to buy books that have been indie published, and are doing well

    Well, why wouldn’t they? it means they are buying a sure thing. on the one hand, this represents yet another abdication on their traditional responsibilites; otoh, if it means they treat those authors with more respect then I’m all for it.

    my next book will be on weight loss, and I hope for a deal like that some day.

    >50K sock puppets
    I don’t know if there’s anything to prevent you from buying 50K of your own book, although Amazon is very aggressive in weeding out fake and quid-pro-quo reviews. sounds risky (not to mention, unethical).

    there are lots of indie resources out there. email me at [email protected], if you wish, and we can discuss it. i’m sure you’ll have some advice for me, too.

    sure, there are many trad publishing successes. I just wonder how many would-be Ozicks, etc., never made it past the hoops and gatekeepers. I was writing fiction in NYC in the 1980s, when Gordon Lish seemed to rule everything, and if you weren’t writing sucky minimalism, forget it.

    big Bernadette fan here!

  63. 63.

    gussie

    June 4, 2014 at 5:34 pm

    @Hillary Rettig: Editors are lemmings. Though I don’t see why buying a ‘sure thing’ would be an abdication; surely -not- buying a sure thing would be the abdication!

    Yeah, fake reviews are blech. But if I bought 50,000 copies of my book for $500, at a penny per, would that propel me up the ‘indie bestseller’ list? I probably shouldn’t admit my Evil Schemes in public.

    And I’m sure that many would-be Ozicks never got past the gatekeepers. But that strikes me as similar to ‘It sucks that so many potentially great teachers can’t get hired because they don’t have a teaching certificate’ or even ‘if you put my 6-year-old’s doodles in a gallery, they’d look just like Twombly!’ Gatekeepers are often wrong, but I’m not sure they’re worse than no-gatekeepers. Unless we start seeing an irruption of Ozicks in the next few years …

    I guess the bottom line is just, ‘this works for some people, that works for other people!’ Such a boring bottom line.

  64. 64.

    Allison Williams Esq.

    June 6, 2014 at 8:17 am

    He gazed like a true king.

Comments are closed.

Primary Sidebar

On The Road - Albatrossity - Flyover Country Spring 2
Image by Albatrossity (5/18/25)

Recent Comments

  • divF on Medium Cool – Best Album Covers! (May 18, 2025 @ 10:14pm)
  • Craig on Medium Cool – Best Album Covers! (May 18, 2025 @ 10:12pm)
  • divF on Medium Cool – Best Album Covers! (May 18, 2025 @ 10:12pm)
  • Jackie on Sunday Diversion: ‘A Dumb New Way To Think About The Dismantling Of The Federal Government’ (May 18, 2025 @ 10:12pm)
  • sab on Sunday Diversion: ‘A Dumb New Way To Think About The Dismantling Of The Federal Government’ (May 18, 2025 @ 10:07pm)

PA Supreme Court At Risk

Donate

Balloon Juice Posts

View by Topic
View by Author
View by Month & Year
View by Past Author

Featuring

Medium Cool
Artists in Our Midst
Authors in Our Midst
War in Ukraine
Donate to Razom for Ukraine

🎈Keep Balloon Juice Ad Free

Become a Balloon Juice Patreon
Donate with Venmo, Zelle or PayPal

Meetups

Upcoming Ohio Meetup May 17
5/11 Post about the May 17 Ohio Meetup

Calling All Jackals

Site Feedback
Nominate a Rotating Tag
Submit Photos to On the Road
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Links)
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Posts)
Fix Nyms with Apostrophes

Hands Off! – Denver, San Diego & Austin

Social Media

Balloon Juice
WaterGirl
TaMara
John Cole
DougJ (aka NYT Pitchbot)
Betty Cracker
Tom Levenson
David Anderson
Major Major Major Major
DougJ NYT Pitchbot
mistermix

Keeping Track

Legal Challenges (Lawfare)
Republicans Fleeing Town Halls (TPM)
21 Letters (to Borrow or Steal)
Search Donations from a Brand

PA Supreme Court At Risk

Donate

Site Footer

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

  • Facebook
  • RSS
  • Twitter
  • YouTube
  • Comment Policy
  • Our Authors
  • Blogroll
  • Our Artists
  • Privacy Policy

Copyright © 2025 Dev Balloon Juice · All Rights Reserved · Powered by BizBudding Inc

Share this ArticleLike this article? Email it to a friend!

Email sent!