Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

I don’t recall signing up for living in a dystopian sci-fi novel.

“Just close your eyes and kiss the girl and go where the tilt-a-whirl takes you.” ~OzarkHillbilly

Sometimes the world just tells you your cat is here.

Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

If you can’t control your emotions, someone else will.

Every decision we make has lots of baggage with it, known or unknown.

Weird. Rome has an American Pope and America has a Russian President.

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

Every one of the “Roberts Six” lied to get on the court.

’Where will you hide, Roberts, the laws all being flat?’

So fucking stupid, and still doing a tremendous amount of damage.

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

If you still can’t see these things even now, maybe politics isn’t your forte and you should stop writing about it.

Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”

That meeting sounds like a shotgun wedding between a shitshow and a clusterfuck.

The unpunished coup was a training exercise.

Finding joy where we can, and muddling through where we can’t.

There are times when telling just part of the truth is effectively a lie.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

No one could have predicted…

You cannot love your country only when you win.

If you are still in the gop, you are either an extremist yourself, or in bed with those who are.

You are here: Home / Sports / Semi-Final Open Thread Argentina v The Netherlands

Reader Interactions

305Comments

  4. 4.

    Betty Cracker

    Awhile ago, I picked the Netherlands to win it all. I have zero knowledge of soccer and no connection to the Netherlands, but I’m stickin’ with my pickin’!

  5. 5.

    mali muso

    I think Argentina has been a little weak and overall lucky thoughout, but Messi is a real force to be reckoned with. After yesterday’s debacle, I’d like to see at least one South American team go through. And frankly, the gamemanship by Krul in the shoot-out against the Ticos put a bad taste in my mouth for the Dutch team, not to mention I’m weary of Robben’s diving. Vamos Argentina!

  7. 7.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    Ga Oranje!

    Let’s reverse 1978 (though we did that already in 1998, I’ll be happy to do it again) and then do the same for 1974.

  10. 10.

    SRW1

    There appears a new theme to be developing at this WC, which is that teams exorcise the demons of defeats in previous finals by applying a spanking to their then opponents: Holland beating their 2010 conqueror Spain 5-1, Germany beating their 2002 conqueror Brazil 7-1.

    I’d like to see that extended to Holland wiping out the memories of their 1978 defeat to Argentina by giving them a good licking tonight. Problem is that if that happens, logic would suggest the final to be about Hollands unfinished business with Germany stemming from the 1974 final. So, maybe that Kraken is better left in its tank.

    As an alternative, though, I wouldn’t mind to see this game go to extra time. Just for the heck of finding out whether van Gaal would try to pull the same stunt with keeping one substitution in reserve for putting Krul in goal should there be a penalty shoot out. In which case I would not mind to witness Argentina bringing in a fresh pair of legs at the beginning of extra time. A guy who tortures the tired Dutch defense by running them ragged before he scores the decisive goal 2 minutes from the end of extra time.

    If we are going to see a penalty shoot out with Krul brought in specifically for that exercise, the question of the evening is whether he’s gonna try to pull the same trash talk routine with the Argentine players as with the Costa Rican ones and whether he gets a boot firmly planted in his arse. If that happens, I’ll take any outcome of the penalties.

    Now go and play ball, guys.

    PS: What’s the over under that de Jong is going to last beyond the 9th minute?

  11. 11.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    Holy cow! De Jong is in the lineup? I figured the talk about van Persie being doubtful was a sham but I never expected Nigel back.

  14. 14.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @SRW1: If you think that that sort of trash talk doesn’t go on constantly during a match, from both sides, you’re deluded. The only thing different about Krul’s behavior was that the circumstances of a shootout made it obvious.

  16. 16.

    Alex S.

    I think the Netherlands are going to win. Though personally, I’d prefer Argentina (to spare Holland the fourth lost WC final).

  18. 18.

    Amir Khalid

    @⚽️ Martin:
    It’s only Brazil who need to redeem themselves, after collapsing, under no real pressure, against opponents who were merely quite competent. Argentina have not shit their own bed so far.

  19. 19.

    Onkel Fritze

    I’d rather play Argentina then the Dutch in the final. The Netherlands and Germany know each other too well, plus Louis van Gaal has worked with the Bayern players. They know exactly how to make the game difficult for Germany. I expect a much more open game v. Argentina.

    So yesterday I went down to Chipichape mall here in Cali to watch the game on a big screen. Let’s say it exceeded expectations. The Colombians were absolutely mercyless, they really hated the Brazilians and cheered every goal and cheered even more when crying Brazilian fans were shown.

  20. 20.

    Tony J

    Since my predicticating has been uniformly disastrous at every stage of this tournament I’m going to predict a 3-1 victory for the Dutchies, hoping that this causes Argentina to overcome the gulf in (Messi excepted) class between the two teams. Nothing against the Dutch at all, but there should be a South American team in the Final.

    That said, should Argentina find a way past Germany on Brazilian soil, after what happened last night… could be something better avoided.

  21. 21.

    SRW1

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):

    Right, but two points.

    1. Rules specifically state that interference in the execution of a penalty are to be awarded with a yellow car. Which did not happen.

    2. WC final 2006. Encounter Zidane – Materazzi.

  26. 26.

    mali muso

    So the word on FB from a friend who lives in Germany was that although everyone was excited and buzzed to be winning last night, by the 4th and 5th goals, the mood in her local pub got very subdued and uncomfortable.

  27. 27.

    hoodie

    de Jeong will play but get a red card in the first thirty seconds for kicking the referee in the groin. Arjen Robben will have his left leg ripped out of its socket on a sliding tackle in the box but surprisingly will remain upright and score with his right to tie the game in stoppage time. The game will go to PKs and Messi will completely miss the goal on his turn to give the Dutch the win and the right to be the human sacrifice for the Germans.

  32. 32.

    Amir Khalid

    People are wondering if, should this match go to penalties, van Gaal will bring on Krul again. I think that substitution was more a psychological ploy than a real tactical move: the difference in height and reach between Krul and Cillessen is actually trivial — a couple of inches or thereabouts.

  34. 34.

    Tony J

    I don’t know why it is, though the fact that 1978 is the first World Cup I remember watching probably has a lot to do with it, aesthetically speaking I just love the Argentine kit. Everything about it from the stark black socks and shorts to the exact shade of blue in the stripes. It’s just fab.

  35. 35.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @Amir Khalid: It was psychological but it also sounds as if Krul spent the days leading up to the game focusing on a potential shootout and the tendencies of the Costa Rica shooters rather than the run of play. So he was better prepared for it.

  36. 36.

    mali muso

    @⚽️ Martin: Agreed. I could barely watch the second half without wincing. That was painful, no matter who you were rooting for. Having it happen in their own “house”, so to speak, made it even more excruciating.

  39. 39.

    Amir Khalid

    This is not going to be like last night’s weird Brazilian collapse. Both teams are wide awake. Louis van Gaal, for one, will have told his players, “If any one of you falls asleep like Brazil did yesterday, I’ll string you up by the nuts at halftime.”

  42. 42.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @SRW1: So, you have nothing?

    Edit: I suppose I should make clear that a) I haven’t seen any reliable reports of a FIFA investigation, just a bunch of commenters in places saying that might have one and b) I don’t consider FIFA deciding to have an investigation to be an indication of very much given how corrupt and incompetent they are.

  43. 43.

    Violet

    @raven: I thanked you in the other thread for the link on DougJ’s “retirement”. I’ve been so busy with my parents I had missed it. Thanks again.

  45. 45.

    raven

    @Violet: Yea, I kept checking and was going to tell you when you showed up here.

    eta and to see if Holocene is going to have me banned.

  46. 46.

    Tony J

    @Amir Khalid:

    Yeah, this is the best I’ve seen Argentina play. Good tactics, keeping their shape well. The Dutch are having a problem getting any serious possession outside their own area.

    Not changing my prediction though.

  47. 47.

    mali muso

    @raven: Either that or one of the Oranje jerseys spontaneously exploded. Wonder if there is any risk of slipping on it.

  51. 51.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @SRW1: Yes, and you have done a lot of complaining but haven’t provided a single example of how Krul interfered with anything. None. He talked and wagged his finger. If you consider that to be interference, you should probably just go ahead and suspend every player in the game.

  53. 53.

    SRW1

    @raven:

    That’s what I am not excluding if he tries again with the Argentines. Purely for entertainments sake, of course.

  56. 56.

    Steeplejack

    @⚽️ Martin:

    I’m actually coming around to rooting for the Netherlands, since they’ve never won it. But I’m not crazy about the idea of an all-European final. But it would be nice to see a non-South American team win it in South America. I’m torn.

    Actually, I think I’m pretty sure I don’t want Germany to win. They have been too mechanical and personality-free.

  57. 57.

    scav

    Rooting for a game, I guess. Solid one might ease the shock of the last — although then I worry that two exciting ones in this round doom us to a dull final. Still wrestling with a distaste for stripey white and blue, sorry @Tony J: although with my luck?

  58. 58.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    The Argentine midfield is going to be a mess if Mascherano is seriously hurt.

  59. 59.

    Onkel Fritze

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): I think it makes a big difference that it’s during a penalty shootout. There are no rules against it, but there should be. The keeper has no business talking to the player taking the shot.

  60. 60.

    raven

    @SRW1: There’s a difference in woofing during the normal flow of the game and getting in someone’s face in a situation like that. I don’t know about the rules but it was punk IMHO.

  61. 61.

    SRW1

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):

    Yeah, Krul was probably discussing Costa Rican specialties and the ref didn’t want to interfere. The discussion about whether Krul deserved a yellow card for his stunt on, for example the Guardian web site, was to purely to draw web traffic, am I right?

    None so blind as the one who doesn’t want to see. I am sure you noticed that phenomenon with others.

  62. 62.

    Violet

    @SRW1:

    1. Rules specifically state that interference in the execution of a penalty are to be awarded with a yellow car.

    That sounds like a good deal! I’ll take a yellow car, even though I’m not wild about the color. But hey! Free car!

  65. 65.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    I guess I don’t see how it’s any different in a shootout. It’s still a part of the game. Sure, I’d like to see a sport where the rules of sportsmanship are different and talking trash weren’t allowed but that’s not the world we live in. Even cricket has been overrun by sledging.

    Mostly I just think there are a lot of fans uncomfortable with the ethos that pervades sports and are uncomfortable with having to watch the behavior that goes on regularly. So they object to the appearances while ignoring anything they can’t actually observe even if it’s well known that it’s going on.

  68. 68.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @SRW1:

    None so blind as the one who doesn’t want to see. I am sure you noticed that phenomenon with others.

    Yeah, and as I said in my previous post, I think that that’s exactly what you’re doing. You’re long on accusations but seem to be struggling with actual specifics.

  70. 70.

    richard mayhew

    @SRW1: trash talking is not “interference” for taking a kick from the mark. “Interference” is encroachment in the penalty area, throwing a shoe at the ball etc. If you want to argue misconduct then you must go to foul and abusive, a red card offense. If you want a red card for generic trash talking most professional games will be abandoned due to lack of players in the 12th minute.

  71. 71.

    Onkel Fritze

    @Steeplejack:

    Actually, I think I’m pretty sure I don’t want Germany to win. They have been too mechanical and personality-free.

    Yeah, the Brazilian model of crying like a baby every time something important happens and doing on the pitch whatever just pops up in your mind at the moment is so much more appealing.

  73. 73.

    Violet

    I keep forgetting that Brazil has to play again in the third place match. How in the world will they do it?

  74. 74.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    Meh. I’m not fond of the game the Dutch are playing so far.

  75. 75.

    mali muso

    @Violet: Just think….they could be playing their arch rivals Argentina. And lose to them on home turf after their recent humiliation. Ayiyiyi.

  76. 76.

    Alex S.

    Two good teams neutralizing each other. I have a feeling that the Dutch are slightly more irritated not being able to play the game they want.

  77. 77.

    Tony J

    @scav:

    It’s all good. I’m like that with red and dark blue strips. Those colours just do not belong together outside of a Superman costume.

  78. 78.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    Let me rephrase that. I’m not fond of the game Bruno Martins Indi is playing. There has to be someone better than this, doesn’t there? He’s like the Fred of defense.

  79. 79.

    MikeJ

    It would be nice if the US was known for one color rather than a buncha stripes. If you’re Dutch you can just wear an Orange tie and, “yeah, being patriotic, supporting the team.” You have to be some sort of fashion disaster to support the US.

    Even two colors gives you a lot more options for not looking like an idiot. Three’s just too much to have to work in.

  83. 83.

    SRW1

    @richard mayhew:

    I suspect a stern word by the ref would have done it.

    I perfectly realize that trash talking is going on during games and isn’t sanctioned because that is an impossible talk for the ref during the mayhem of normal play action. Penalties are different in that regard, because the game has stopped and is concentrated narrowly.

    Plus, the prohibition against unsportsmanlike behaviour stands. If it is deemed unenforcable even in situations in which it is apparent that it occurs, it might be preferable to cancel it.

  84. 84.

    Tony J

    @raven:

    I think that’s down to Mascherano and Zabalata, they both look like hardened veterans of a 70’s gang war. OTOH Messi looks like Roman Polanski’s great grandson, so it evens out.

  85. 85.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @mali muso: Can I petition FIFA to not have Indi’s previous yellow wiped out so that he has to miss the final?

  88. 88.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @SRW1: If you have a blanket ban on unsportsmanlike behavior but define it differently in different situations, it’s as ludicrous as not enforcing it at all. Either trash talking merits a yellow card or it doesn’t. Setting the rules to match your delicate sensibilities of not wanting to see it is stupid.

  91. 91.

    Gin & Tonic

    @SRW1: Speaking of stern words, what language does the ref use for his brief “conferences” with the players? He is, IIRC, Turkish. Is there a mandated language for this, like in air traffic control?

  95. 95.

    Tony J

    @raven:

    Check out some of the coiffures from the 1978 World Cup. Man, those locks flowed.

    But Mascherano in a curly wig would just look like a hit man trying to infiltrate a hippy commune. Something about the eyes spells sudden death, if you’re lucky.

  96. 96.

    Onkel Fritze

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): I think you’re being willfully ignorant here. There’s a clear difference. Btw, players have been punished harshly, even retrospectively, for racist trashtalking on the pitch. Just because the refs cannot possibly see every foul commited during a game does not mean you should not punish any of them.

  97. 97.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @SRW1: If you want to punish it in cases where you have to see it while excusing it in situations where you don’t, yes.

  98. 98.

    SRW1

    @Gin & Tonic:

    My hunch is that one of the preconditions for being a ref at international games is a certain mastering of the language they call ‘inglese’.

  100. 100.

    mali muso

    @Randinho: bwaha! That must account for his relatively subdued behavior in this half. He left it all on the field.

  105. 105.

    Tony J

    @Valdivia:

    Every time I see him I flash to Polanski in Fearless Vampire Killers (Dance of the Vampires) and get the giggles. Anyone know if Ronan spent any time in set in Argentina back in the 80s?

  107. 107.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @Onkel Fritze: Explain this clear difference, because it is not at all clear to me. The game lasts from the opening whistle until the last penalty kick is taken, if needed. And your example of punishments for racist trash talking is irrelevant because there are plenty of examples of it during the run of play being punished. You are not treating it differently.

    My objection is not that there should never be postmatch investigations of behavior on the field, with possible suspensions handed out. I’m very much in favor of that and I don’t think FIFA does enough of it. My objection is that, if you are prepared to tolerate trash talking during part of the game, it’s silly to get bent out of shape about it during another part.

  108. 108.

    mali muso

    @Violet: Or James!!! I think he’s still at the top of the golden boot table despite having received ‘the boot’ from the tourney.

  109. 109.

    Tony J

    @raven:

    Not getting out if the boat on that one, chief. We’ve already got one case of duelling handbags going on in this thread. 8-)

  110. 110.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @SRW1: That’s not what you said. You said that it is an impossible task for the ref to police trash talking during the run of play. You excused never enforcing the ban on trash talking during the run of play, not that there would be some instances of it going unpunished. And if you are going to shrug your shoulders at it during 90% of the game, I think it’s silly to start hopping up and down about it during the other 10%.

    If you would like to change your argument to saying that it should be punished during the run of play even though some instances of it will be missed, great. Hell, I’d be on board with that. But that IS a change in your argument. As is, you’re demanding that Krul be the first guy punished despite it never being enforced anywhere else.

  112. 112.

    scav

    I’ll step up for some possibly merited abuse: I was rooting for a game and as per usual . . . . At least now I can amuse myself with visions of a thuggish Marischino cherry (the authentic ones with actual liqueur) rolling about different positions while being dove for. Not an altogether satisfactory substitute.

  115. 115.

    Tony J

    Back to the game, I’d think that it would be the Dutch who’d have to change their tactics in the second half. They’re keeping Messi quiet, but Argentina are still making more chances than the Oranjiboomers.

    And Van Persie hasn’t impressed since the first game. Which as a Liverpool fan I find pleasing.

  116. 116.

    raven

    Basketball players talk all kinds of shit during the game but if they try to intimidate a free throw shooter they get T’d up most rickey tic. That being said, soccer is obviously not b-ball.

  117. 117.

    Onkel Fritze

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): @Steeplejack: First of all, it was an example that trash talk is not constantly tolerated. In your first paragraph you claim the example is irrelevant, in your second paragraph you claim trash talk is tolerated. Make up your mind.

    Second, there are rules for all kinds of special game situations – corner kicks, free kicks, penalties etc. Why not a rule that says during a penalty the players involved (the player who takes the shot and the keeper) are not to talk to each other? Applies to all penalties during the game and is easy to administer.

  120. 120.

    mali muso

    Ok, that was a stupid move by Demichelis, but the dramatic over-reactions on Robben’s face just make me laugh.

  122. 122.

    SRW1

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):

    Nope, I didn’t state an excuse. I stated an empirical observation of what happens during games, namely that a lot trash talking isn’t noticed by the ref because his attention is somewhere else. You know, the stuff that happens with the ball.

  124. 124.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @Onkel Fritze:

    First of all, it was an example that trash talk is not constantly tolerated.

    Yes, but it was an example that was irrelevant to the discussion, which was over different rules at different times of the game. I have no doubt that if Krul had started hurling racist abuse at the Costa Ricans, he would have been sanctioned. That’s the problem with analogies: sometimes the similarities in the situations have nothing to do with the distinction being drawn.

    Applies to all penalties during the game and is easy to administer.

    Easy to administer and still silly. If you object to trash talking, you should object to it at all times. Either it’s unsportsmanlike or it’s not. If it is, have a rule against it. If it’s not, then let it go. But be consistent.

  125. 125.

    Violet

    @Tony J:

    And Van Persie hasn’t impressed since the first game. Which as a Liverpool fan I find pleasing.

    Van Persie plays for United, right? I seem to remember my English relative yelling at him on the TV when she was visiting. She’s a United supporter, but to be fair to her she came by it honestly, having grown up very near Old Trafford.

  126. 126.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @SRW1: So, is your position that the ref should enforce a ban on trash talking during the run of play when he hears it? And if so, is it really your contention that the ref hadn’t heard any trash talking until after the 120th minute?

  127. 127.

    raven

    @Tony J: It seems as if what the Dutch goalie did in the shootout against Costa Rica was within the rules. That’s fine, still seemed like a punk move to me.

  128. 128.

    ⚽️ Martin

    @Tony J:

    And Van Persie hasn’t impressed since the first game.

    After that diving header, there wasn’t much else to do. That’s still the most spectacular goal of the cup.

  131. 131.

    burnspbesq

    If he keeps making plays like that, I may have to re-think my low opinion of Ron Vlaar.

  135. 135.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @Onkel Fritze: Yeah. The German tradition is to pull something out of your sock and read it to your opponent. Gamesmanship during penalty shootouts is a long tradition that the Germans have been perfectly happy to participate in.

  136. 136.

    Onkel Fritze

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): I don’t know what to say here. You keep contradicting yourself and then you tell me to be consistent. I am consistent: unsportsmanlike behaviour should be punished. This kind of rule would make it easier in case of penalties.

  137. 137.

    mali muso

    And that’s it for de Jong.

    ETA: and now it started raining? Maybe we’ll get some slippery mud soccer action!

  138. 138.

    Tony J

    @Violet:

    To be entirely unfair, growing up anywhere within the confines of Manchester usually makes for a Man City supporter. B’dum Tish! Here all week, folks. Please weigh your tipresses.

    But yes, he’s a United player. An obviously unhappy and ineffective one last season under the reign of Mo ‘Moyles’ Sizlack, but the season prior to that he more or less singlehandedly won them the title. If this is what he plays like under Van Gaal I’m looking forward to Holland’s manager taking over at United next season.

  139. 139.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    This is probably me betraying my lack of understanding of the game but I’m not clear on what Janmaat did there that was a foul. It looked like two guys sliding into each other and one of them took the brunt of the hit.

  140. 140.

    raven

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):

    . Gamesmanship during penalty shootouts is a long tradition

    That’s what’s really important in my mind. I don’t watch enough soccer to know that but if that’s the way it is then there isn’t really any argument.

  142. 142.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @Onkel Fritze: But if you NEVER enforce a rule against non-racist trash talking during the run of play, then it’s silly to do it during penalties. Yes, I get that it’s harder to enforce during the run of play, but it simply is not impossible to ever do so. My argument isn’t inconsistent. It is, at its simplest, the idea that either you give a card for unsportsmanlike conduct when you see/hear it and define trash talking as unsportsmanlike, or you don’t. And if you only enforce it some of the times that you hear it, it’s stupid.

  144. 144.

    Violet

    Aren’t the Dutch supposed to be the tallest country on average now? They certainly look like giants compared to the Argentinians out there.

  146. 146.

    Onkel Fritze

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): You just make up shit as you go along, don’t you? In cas you’re refering to Lehmann in 2006, he read that note to himself and did not communicate with his opponent. If he had done so, my proposed rule would also take care of that.

  147. 147.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    Argentina has been the better team so far but not by a margin large enough to really matter.

  148. 148.

    burnspbesq

    At some point, Kuyt has to start taking Zabaleta on instead of going backwards and inside every time he receives the ball.

  149. 149.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @burnspbesq: I’ll take your word for it but it looked like something incidental to the two guys sliding.

  151. 151.

    Tony J

    @raven:

    Oh I agree. Still surprised the ref didn’t have a very stern word with him after the first penalty. It’s not something refs will immediately card for, but I have seen refs take that kind of behaviour as a slap in the face to their authority and tell them to cut it out or they’ll be carded for persistent dickishness, phrased slightly differently, of course.

  152. 152.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @Onkel Fritze: I’ll agree that he didn’t verbally communicate to his opponents, but his body language definitely did. At that point we’re drawing a line so fine that I consider it meaningless.

  153. 153.

    SRW1

    @raven:

    It isn’t ‘common’ practice. It does happen occasionally and refs generally stop it then. What happens regularly is goalies doing a jumping jack on the line, even though they are supposed to not do that.

  157. 157.

    Tony J

    @⚽️ Martin:

    Yeah, it was a great goal, but strikers of his quality are supposed to bring it to every game. He’s playing against Argentina in a World Cup semi-final FFS, act like it.

  158. 158.

    Steeplejack

    The Dutch coaches really do look like the internal audit team from Mid-State Office Supply.

  159. 159.

    Onkel Fritze

    @raven: Not like the Dutch guy did, it isn’t. It’s allowed, though. I’m arguing it shouldn’t be.

  164. 164.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    @Onkel Fritze: And I’m fine with a blanket ban against trash talking. I just think that singling out a tiny portion of the game and saying it’s not allowed there while ignoring it the rest of the time is silly. Either punish it or don’t.

  165. 165.

    mali muso

    So, 12+ more minutes of this back and forth, and then we’re off to the extra time. Unless Robben manages to draw a foul in the box as per his usual MO.

  166. 166.

    SRW1

    Less than 15 min left in regular time and Argentina nil points, I mean, nil substitutions. Are they expecting extra time or do they have nil confidence in their bench?

  167. 167.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    Apparently we’re only going to ban gamesmanship in 5% of the game and only if it’s verbal. Anything else goes.

  170. 170.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    It feels like 8 goals in the semis is all the gods will allow.

  171. 171.

    raven

    @SRW1: Yea, I can see how hard it is to tell the difference between something that occurs in the flow of the game and something that happens during a dead motherfucking ball.

  175. 175.

    Violet

    From the Guardian live blog:

    83 min: Pretty quiet in the stadium right now. And no wonder, this is appalling. Come back, Brazil, all is forgiven.

    Heh.

  176. 176.

    Tony J

    @Violet:

    Oh it’s funny when that happens. My nephew used to threaten that he’d support Everton for reasons I could not logically process. The silent stares of budding contempt he received from everyone else eventually put a spike through that attention getter.

  177. 177.

    SRW1

    @mali muso:

    Yeah, but If Aguero were fully fit, he would have been in the starting line up. I guess they think he might be able to last 30-40 mins.

  179. 179.

    Schlemizel

    Apparently Germany used up all the goals yesterday & now there are none for anyone.

  181. 181.

    Randy Paul aka Randinho

    So it’s not a yellow card when an Argentine player elbows thr keeper and blocks his release of the ball?

  187. 187.

    scav

    @burnspbesq: Jove nods, but maybe if we managed to kickstart some solid coffee and other sacrifices for at least a half hour of even his drowsy attention? Even a REM cycle might help!

  188. 188.

    Tony J

    It might just be me, but I think this game owes it’s audience a very early goal in extra time and 30 mins of end-to-end action in the box. It might be riveting for connoisseurs of defensive movement but most people don’t swing that way.

    That said, a last minute free kick from Messi is still likely.

    Fook me, thought Robben was going to plant that one. Bravo Mascherano.

  189. 189.

    mali muso

    Given how tall the Dutch are, I’m surprised they haven’t done better at winning the headers off the corner kicks.

  191. 191.

    Randy Paul aka Randinho

    I’ve said it countless times: if I were a coach, I’d rather have 11 players working as hard as Dirk Kuyt.

  192. 192.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    Jesus the Dutch have been good at turning something into nothing today.

  193. 193.

    lol chikinburd

    Robben’s technique was off. He needed to get that right foot down to catch Mascherano and go flying.

  197. 197.

    mali muso

    Lol, from the Guardian liveblog:

    More good news for Germany! Not only are these two teams extremely poor, they’re playing an extra 30 minutes of football ahead of the final.

  199. 199.

    scav

    @Schlemizel: Nil-nil is different from null-null which is more what we may be unexpectedly wrestling with. Où sont les eqipes d’antan?

  200. 200.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    My take so far is that the Argentines have been better but not by enough that they should feel jobbed if they lose.

    Also, it seems like Messi has been invisible. It’s a bit hard to tell since the TV screens here are small enough that I have a hard time reading the numbers and they killed the sound during the first half. So I may have missed things. But I really haven’t noticed him. I assume that a lot of the Dutch effort has been to do exactly that and so I don’t know how to factor that in to evaluating their overall play.

  201. 201.

    burnspbesq

    @Schlemizel:

    but nil-nil in futbol just is not doing it for me.

    If you want to see highlight-reel goals, watch the Iroquois in the world championships in lacrosse, which begin tomorrow. Behind-the-back, behind-the-head, between-the-legs, every ridiculous “if you try that, kid, you’ll get thrown out of practice” thing you can imagine. Lyle Thompson is the biggest rock-star the game has ever known, and it’s all done to provide enjoyment for the Creator.

  202. 202.

    Valdivia

    I wish they’d go straight to penalties. The pace only picked up in the last five minutes of regulation time. Sigh.

  205. 205.

    SRW1

    Looks like Huntelaar is to come on, so no Krul today. Van Gaal is going all in.

  206. 206.

    Mike E

    The Univision announcer is coughing up furballs while pronouncing the Dutch players’ names.

  208. 208.

    mali muso

    @Mike E: Having dated a guy from the Netherlands in my wild youth, it is my recollection that a lot of the sounds one makes in Dutch are essentially coughing up furballs.

  212. 212.

    scav

    @Violet: Evidence would suggest . . . . .

    If the guard liveblog has resorted to a discussion of William the Silent’s geographic bloodlines in middle-Dutch . . .

  215. 215.

    SRW1

    @Violet:

    If the announcer on a sports channel reads out the result of a game as a ‘goalless nil-nil’ it usually means a bloody boring affair in which nobody could be bothered.

  216. 216.

    burnspbesq

    Here comes the jinx line that is sure to result in a goal.

    The Dutch defense has been impeccable all night.

  217. 217.

    Tony J

    @Valdivia:

    In fairness there have been some damned exciting extra-time displays in this tournament, but I have a feeling that sans one moment of genius these teams are going to choke each other like gimps on a go-slow.

  218. 218.

    mali muso

    Donde es Messi? Everytime they get close to the Dutch defense, the orange wall goes up.

  219. 219.

    Violet

    @Tony J: Yeah, extra time has been exciting in this World Cup. Not today, though. It’s kind of like all the air was let out of football in Brazil yesterday and no team has the energy to do much today.

  220. 220.

    SRW1

    @burnspbesq:

    Holland appears on the verge of taking over. Which is what they did against Mexico in extra time. Argentina looks as if they rely on one stroke of genius by Messi. Not that this hasn’t ever happened.

  222. 222.

    morfydd

    It’s after midnight here and I’m trying to decide if it’s worth staying up for the end.

    I want Argentina to win because the Dutch are thugs, but I would be amused to see Blind and Lahm (German for blind and lame) play each other…

  225. 225.

    Mike E

    Wow, that 50/50 challenge filleted #4’s brisket, rattled his chicklets too. Shudder.

  226. 226.

    Tony J

    @Violet:

    I’m tending to think that they’re both having trouble playing with their buttocks clenched as tight as a choir boy in the Vatican. Their tactics cancelled each other out over the 90, and though it’s loosened up in extra time they’re both still defensively solid.

    Neither want to throw that extra body forward in case it leaves the gap that lets Messi or Robben wriggle through to make the last 100 plus minutes of hard work a waste.

    World Cup semi-finals, not everyone can have it handed to them like Germany did last night. Remember how tight that looked until the Germans put in their second?

  227. 227.

    SRW1

    Is Angel di Maria out for the tournament or only for this game? Cause the Argentine must be desperate for not having him on the pitch.

  230. 230.

    Violet

    @Tony J: Unfortunately I didn’t get to see the match until the last 15 minutes or so. I had to take my dad to the doctor. Can’t believe I missed the defining match of the tournament. Oh well. I thought about taping the ESPN replay but I really don’t have time to watch it. I caught the highlights but not the same as seeing it live, I know.

  231. 231.

    Schlemizel

    I assume that the penalty kick business is relatively new, is that correct? If so, how were these things decided before that?

  235. 235.

    SRW1

    @mali muso:

    If we go by WC history, it’s Argentina. They have won three and lost one. Hollands record is one win, one loss.

  236. 236.

    Onkel Fritze

    @Schlemizel: Penalties have been used for the first time in a big tournament at the Euro ’76. Before that, they actually just had a repeat game.

  237. 237.

    Schlemizel

    @raven:
    well, that would be better than a golden shower I suppose but I was hoping for fist fights or cavalry charges

  239. 239.

    SRW1

    @Schlemizel:

    Penalty shootout made its first appearance (at WCs) in 1982. Before that, games were extended, and then extended again until there was a decision. In the gris of time, they did repeats of entire games.

  240. 240.

    Tony J

    @Violet:

    To be honest, I’d give it a miss. There are big chunks of it where you’ll feel dirty, like watching a video of a dog getting hit by a car. No one needs to see Brazil like that.

  241. 241.

    Schlemizel

    @Onkel Fritze:
    Man that would be tough. As much as I hate shootouts in sports I get that you can’t ask one team to play 2 games before the championship match at this level.

  246. 246.

    Valdivia

    For poetic justice may the Dutch lose in penalties how they won against us / #sorrynotsorry

  247. 247.

    Violet

    @Tony J: That’s how it felt watching the last 15 minutes. Just dirty.

    When I was getting my dad back to their apartment I had a minute and glanced at my phone to see the score. I’m sure my jaw dropped and I said something like, “What the hell?” I couldn’t believe what I was seeing.

  248. 248.

    Calouste

    @SRW1:

    IIRC, in the 74 and 78 World Cups the final would be replayed after an extra time draw. There were no other knock out matches in those tournaments.

  249. 249.

    SRW1

    Pertinent information from the Guardian MBM:

    It was inevitable. Let’s be honest, we knew after about 15 minutes. This will go to penalty kicks. Jasper Cillessen, let it be noted, has never saved one in his career. Now would be some time to break his duck.

  252. 252.

    Violet

    @SRW1: Also pertinent from the Guardian liveblog:

    ET 23 min: Two teams going nowhere in a quiet stadium. “I can’t help but notice that the Google Doodle in honour of this game shows Dutch and Argentine aliens who are completely unaware of the rudiments of football,” reports Philip N Gross. “Is the all-knowing search engine hinting at a sinister explanation for this dire display?”

  258. 258.

    Tony J

    @Violet:

    I was watching it live, and had to edit a post three times because the Germans just kept on being allowed to score.

    Don’t get me wrong, after the Colombia game I wanted Germany to really beat this Brazil team into a shuddering ball of tears, but the way Brazil capitulated was something else.

  260. 260.

    Violet

    @Tony J: Yeah, if I’d watched it live I would have been riveted during that amazing run of all the goals. But late in the game was awful. I couldn’t bring myself to watch the replay.

    And wow! Two saves! Argentina!

  262. 262.

    Heliopause

    I might have mentioned once or twice what an imbecilic way this is to settle a sporting event.

  263. 263.

    SRW1

    @Calouste:

    There must have been extra time going back to as far as at least 1970. I distinctly remember the ‘Game of the Century’ between Germany and Italy having been decided in extra time. IIRC even the game before that between Germany and England went to extra time.

  269. 269.

    Violet

    @Heliopause: It’s exciting though. It’s not like the teams haven’t had plenty of opportunities to score in the rest of the match.

  270. 270.

    Steeplejack (tablet)

    Well done, Argentina! They deserve to go through. And I’ll be rooting for them against Germany.

  271. 271.

    Uncle Cosmo

    IMHO FIFA should work up a tiebreaking procedure involving corner kicks, which (again IMHO) are about as exciting as set play gets in futbol.

    E.g., each side gets 2 CKs, 1 from either corner, play continues a maximum of 2 minutes,

    You’d have to figure out a way to induce the teams to send the kick immediately across the goal mouth rather than just nub it outside, piddle around for 1:50 or so, then bring the goalie up & take a shot. Maybe a goal via first touch off the CK counts double.

  272. 272.

    Onkel Fritze

    So Argentina it is. My mind says that’s the better team to play, but somehow my gut wanted the Dutch. Must be because the ’74 final was actually played on my 8th birthday. Best present ever.

  273. 273.

    scav

    Well, my luck held vis-a-vis that hope for a game. Query, as a point on my fact learned per game more realistic aspiration, does “three rugby points” just mean a try aka attempt or is there some sort of judgment concerning the quality of a attempt underlying the phrase? More or less than an E for Effort locution?

  275. 275.

    Another Holocene Human

    So much for Germany-Netherlands and Argentina-Brazil grudge matches, guess Argentina will place above Brazil no matter what, they will want to destroy Netherlands to get their pride back.

    Rooting for Germany for dumb tribal reasons. silly dutch and their silly bikes.

  276. 276.

    Tony J

    Comprehensively wrong again! Sorry Holland, but the Argentines just wanted it that bit more.

    Not making a single prediction about the final. I’ll leave it in the hands of Amir, blessed be his games.

  277. 277.

    Calouste

    @SRW1:

    Extra time has been around for a very long time, since the late 19th century or so. Penalty shoot-outs are an invention from the early 1970s.

  278. 278.

    Violet

    @Uncle Cosmo: I like the idea of taking one player off the pitch every minute or two in a second round of extra time. The strategy about which player comes off and in what order would be interesting.

  279. 279.

    mali muso

    Well, that was interesting at the end at least. Glad to see one South American team make it to the final game. I think Germany has a more cohesive team and will probably win, but let’s hope for an entertaining match anyways.

    Now I’m off to try my hand at making some beef korma. Dinner won’t cook itself.

  282. 282.

    Violet

    @scav: Are you talking about the comment on the Guardian liveblog? I think it meant that whichever player it was kicked the ball so high over the goal that it would have gone through the upright goalposts in rugby, which in rugby gets you three points.

    ETA, probably not necessary to point out, but it was a funny bit of British sarcasm about the poor quality of play in this match.

  284. 284.

    scav

    @Violet: Yes, that was the source — I think I saw it used earlier as well. I was off wandering into google land and mislead by something about Rugby Trys and drawing wild collections about rhyming slang and general snakiness of locution. Didn’t think about where the ball actually went. Thanks. (ETA: so, now I have two facts: one way of scoring in Rugby! yes, I’m that dire.)

  285. 285.

    danielx

    I know it’s a World Cup open thread, but I gotta vent.

    Fucking pit bulls.

    About an hour ago one slipped out a neighbor’s door because the neighbor wasn’t paying close enough attention. The beast came around to our house and attacked our boy Eric, who was lying in his own garage enjoying the sunshine…just like Tunch. Neighbor kid had chased the dog and was trying to get it off Eric and finally did, but he was hurt badly with a lot of puncture wounds. Animal hospital is about a mile down the road and we took him there, now we have to wait to find out if any of the wounds penetrated the thorax wall, in which case we will have to get him put down. Sixteen years old and just enjoying living out his life, and this motherfucking dog attacks him on his own turf – inside the garage!

    The neighbor showed up at the hospital with the dog about five minutes after we got there to have the dog put down, and good riddance – I’d already told the kid that if I ever saw the dog again I’d shoot it on the spot. Let it be noted that this was a nice pit bull, etc etc. But those goddamned animals are bred for aggression and they’re like heat seeking missiles. I’m sorry it was necessary for those folks to have their dog put down, but it was totally unnecessary for our beloved friend to be hurt at all.

    Just really sad and totally pissed all at the same time.

  286. 286.

    Violet

    @Valdivia: I hope the Brazilians at least play a good game on Saturday. Another crushing defeat would be brutal.

    But hell yeah! Argentina! I’m glad they’re in the final. I don’t think any of the last four teams were great teams. Germany is probably the closest, but they’re more clinical than great. But I’d much rather not have an all European final.

  288. 288.

    Onkel Fritze

    Who woulda thunk. The Brazilian audience supposedly is gonna cheer for Germany.

  290. 290.

    Violet

    @scav: We watch a lot of rugby in my household so I’ve learned a lot about it. I enjoy it a lot more than NFL football. Like soccer football the play rarely stops. Players have to play both offense and defense so you don’t have these highly specialized players that do one thing well. The players play positions, so they’re different body types and all, but they still have to switch between offense and defense depending on which side has the ball. They all have to be able to run to a certain extent. It’s exciting.

    That kick through the goalposts that gets you three points is called a drop goal and happens in the middle of play. It’s a strategic choice to get some points on the board. Doesn’t get you the five points (in rugby union) of a try but if you’re having trouble getting the ball across the line to get the try it can be a way to get some points.

  291. 291.

    Josie

    @danielx: I am so sorry. Eric is a beautiful kitty and I hope he will be able to recover. A pit bull attacked my son’s little pug at a dog park some years ago and I have never felt good about them since. How can anyone want to own such a dangerous animal?

  292. 292.

    MattR

    @Tripod: That is the same thing the MLS played around with, right? Place the ball between midfield and the top of the penalty box and give the player 5 seconds to shoot from the time they first touch the ball. Keeper only has to stay on his line until the ball is touched. I liked it. Not perfect, but at least a better measure of offensive skill vs goalkeeping skill. So better than straight PKs. (EDIT: Probably a bit unfair to defensive minded teams, which is why I think removing players progressively over time is a better option)

  293. 293.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @danielx:

    Heartbreaking and infuriating, both. I’m so sorry, and I wish Eric all the best. Hope he recovers. Whatever the eventual outcome, hugs to you (and to your neighbors, too — yes, it was their dog that did the damage, but they did the right thing, promptly, and you know they’re also grieving and upset).

  295. 295.

    CaseyL

    @danielx: I don’t know what to say, other than I am so sorry! Eric’s such a sweet old fluffball – my heart’s hurting for you as if it were one of my kitties. Please keep us posted!

  296. 296.

    scav

    @Violet: I know it’s big in the south of France where I’ve spent some time recently but I must have just been there in the wrong season for the most part so have really only seen one game (and learned that I must always root against England in the something of Six: France can lose to Wales or Ireland, but never England). Maybe I’ll add it to the stack so that I can at least be polite if I ever wander into a crowd at the Restaubar actively watching. Petanque will still edge it by a nose, but there it might be safer to plead near complete ignorance and get all the local rules unsullied.

  297. 297.

    Patricia Kayden

    @danielx: So sorry to hear your story. Hope that Eric fully recovers. He does look alot like Tunch — all floofy and white. I know there are probably alot of nice ones out there but pit bulls scare me to death.

  299. 299.

    Violet

    @scav: Yeah, it’s big in the south of France. You’re talking about the Six Nations, which is played in the spring–that’s between six European nations. The Autumn Internationals will start in August and include southern hemisphere nations (like New Zealand and their perennial powerhouse All Blacks) and Australia playing in the northern hemisphere. The summer tours just finished–England played in Australia, Wales went to South Africa, France was in New Zealand (I think).

    That’s funny that they always want England to lose. My household is part English so we’ll want France to lose, but if they’re playing Australia it’s tough to know who to support.

    It’s hard to get rugby on TV in the US. It’s changed a bunch of times on which channel we can get it. We end up using some of the peer-to-peer online sites from time to time because the matches simply aren’t being shown.

  301. 301.

    Mnemosyne

    @danielx:

    Fingers crossed that it all goes well. FWIW, when I was at the vet a few months ago, some people were there with their small dog who had been grabbed by a coyote and it was doing fine (it was there for a follow-up visit). All terriers (including pit bulls) have a very strong prey drive and there’s not much that can be done to protect the smaller animals, unfortunately.

  302. 302.

    Tripod

    @MattR:

    That sounds familiar. IIRC MLS started with a forty-five minute scoreboard count down clock as well? It’s odd MLS would have grabbed that stuff from the corpse of the NASL, rather than the team branding.

  304. 304.

    Paul in KY

    @SRW1: I think it was a legit tactic. That thing goes on when someone in NBA finals is taking a key free throw or the FG kicker in Super Bowl is attempting the winning kick. If those guys can handle it, then the penalty takers should handle it.

    The penalty takers can talk smack to the goalie as well.

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