Hi, it’s Zaid here. I want to thank John for giving me this opportunity and I’m glad to be writing alongside Tom and the others. Balloon Juice is an awesome read, always, and I hope I can provide the same.Now, jumping right into it.
As you’ve probably noticed, Israel is bombing the heck out of Gaza. The reasons for this are myriad, but often presented as Israeli self-defense for rocket fire. Scott McConnell at The American Conservative and JJ Goldberg at The Jewish Daily Forward have the best timelines for why that’s bunk — Bibi Netanyahu broke the ceasefire that had been in place since November 2012, largely for political reasons.The ceasefire itself was under very limited conditions with Hamas, the political movement with a militant wing that controls Gaza. During the past seven years, Israel has continued to control access to Gaza’s imports, land, sea, and air. The Gaza Strip has been under virtual siege this entire time, with Israelis even counting out the calories they estimate Gazans are allowed to have. This siege, which is essentially a soft form of war on Gaza’s entire population, is the main reason there hasn’t been a renewed ceasefire — Hamas has offered one, but it must include some alleviation of the siege. The Egyptian offer includes no such thing.
Still, I have been told by numerous Professional Democrats over the past few weeks — people who work in liberal organizations close to the Hill and White House — that this is a very complicated situation, and that I’ve made it all too simple in my narrative of the Palestinians being denied basic voting rights or statehood for nearly fifty years. I don’t really believe that, and privately, many others in American politics don’t believe that either (for example the Clintons, who I’ve heard through several well-placed sources, really strongly dislike Netanyahu and blame him for the failure of talks).
But let’s say the issue really is very complicated. Then we have to ask ourselves, why is the American response so simplistic? Our politicians line up behind the Israelis in every action, never threatening to cut aid or weapons flow or ending our veto of UN resolutions pertaining to the issue. That’s certainly not a complex approach.
Yet the most simple response I’ve seen yet has been from a group of New York Democrats who held a rally in favor of the Israeli action. In their telling, there are no Palestinians stripped of rights for decades that they would instantly get if they were, say, from New Jersey but could make a credible claim they are Jewish (they would get instant citizenship under that circumstance). There is no cruel siege on Gaza, nor ever-expanding settlements (read: colonies) in the West Bank that are making a Palestinian state their impossible. There is only the defense of Israel:
“The people outside protesting are protesting because innocent Palestinian civilians have been killed. It would seem to me the protest would be with Hamas because you cannot negotiate for peace if you cannot control those people who are supposed to be your negotiating partners,” Mr. Rangel declared.
“As peaceful as I am, I find it impossible for me to believe that someone who says I should be dead, I should negotiate and see how dead you want me,” he added. […]
“Our enemies have sought the destruction of the Jewish people for thousands of years. Much of the opposition you’re seeing to Israel and its policies, much of what you hear out there, is no more than a new face for a very old hatred and a very old evil,” Mr. Nadler said, alluding to the protesters beyond the gates.
Notice Nadler’s allusion that the peace protesters are simply motivated by hatred of Jews (as far as I’m aware many of the protesters were themselves Jews who oppose Netanyahu’s policies).
New York City politicians are infamous for their pandering to hardline supporters of Israel (it’s a myth that Jewish Americans are united in support of Israeli policy, but older, hawkish donors, many of them from New York, form much of the backbone of the pro-Israel lobby, alongside Christian Zionists). Here’s New York City Mayor Bill DeBlasio with Avigdor Lieberman:
Who is Avigdor Lieberman? He’s the Israeli Foreign Minister who has called for the execution of Arab lawmakers and wants to expel Israel’s small Arab population into the Palestinian territories, a plan which led to condemnation from not-at-all-a-leftist Ariel Sharon. By all means, Lieberman is the polar image of those Muslim extremists who seek to destroy Israel and expel its Jewish population. Yet erstwhile progressive DeBlasio leaves his own values at the door to pander to extremists like Lieberman, knowing that New York City’s Arab population doesn’t have the political capital to punish him.
But for New York politicians, pandering to Israel really isn’t enough. They’ve gone out of their way to endorse policy that proves to many of their donors that they can Stand Up To The Muslims. When it was revealed that the NYPD was conducting thorough surveillance of innocent Muslim student groups, mosques, even kabob shops, none other than Netroots Nation speaker Chuck Schumer rode to their defense. New York City politicians were so mute about the spying scandal that you couldn’t find a high-profile critic of the NYPD until you crossed the river and had Chris Christie of all people defend New York (and New Jersey’s) Muslims.
I grew up in the South in the 1990’s, and I was blessed to be living in a time that was post-segregation. A lot of people don’t know this, but the South today is more well-integrated than the Northeast and Midwest (the West has a very small black population relative to the East Coast, so it’s sort of problematic to compare segregation here and there by the traditional black-white ratios).
I was welcomed by my mostly white neighbors and friends, and even after the 9/11 attacks, I was overwhelmed by all the people who came to my family and told me they would watch out for us if anyone gave us trouble.
This didn’t happen magically. As the readers of the blog know, there was a robust civil rights movement, and people even gave their lives, to ensure that the South would change. The Democratic Party’s Southern members were the most vocal and outspoken advocates against racial integration, and the famous Dixiecrats, pulling for the votes of white racists, made a name for themselves in rejecting the policies of their Democratic presidents Kennedy and Johnson.
When I watch New York Democrats who are pro-LGBT rights, pro-labor rights, pro-equality in virtually every arena endorse NYPD spying on Muslims, grotesque attacks on basic faith rights (the “Ground Zero Mosque” controversy), and pander to extremists like Avigdor Lieberman, I’m reminded of the Dixiecrats. A lot of liberals are offended by this suggestion, I’m sure, but a lot of liberals just don’t pay much attention to American Muslims or Arabs, and the way they are marginalized in our body politic.
In the coming years, the Democratic coalition may shift South. Enormous numbers of hispanic immigrants and immigrants from rest of the country, as well as increased participation by young people, women, and African Americans, all of whom are much less anti-Muslim than the AIPAC crowd, should place the South in solidly Democratic territory within the next decade. As Israel slides towards being a pariah state and the U.S. disengages from its wars in the Muslim world, it may be that the Democrats of the Northeast do find themselves in a historically mirrored position — defending extreme anti-Muslim policies in an attempt to please donors who judge policy simply by its pro-Israel, anti-Muslim optics.
One would hope that figures like DeBlasio, Schumer, Nadler, and others wouldn’t want to be in that spot. But it may just come to that.
raven
Welcome Zaid!
Barry
“… with Israelis even counting out the calories they estimate Gazans are allowed to have. ”
Motherf*cking concentration camp.
I’ve used the term ‘Likkudzi’ before, and stand by that now.
LT
Welcome, Kaid.
And holy shit, the calorie count thing. Had not seen that.
Hunter Gathers
These New Dixiecrats kiss the ass of the Avigdor Lieberman set for two reasons: that sweet, sweet, AIPAC cash (it costs a lot of money to run for office), and the fact that kicking people who pray to the wrong god is never a bad move when trying to increase your share of the White vote.
Being an anti-Muslim bigot is the one form of bigotry left that you can Loud and Proud about and not catch shit for it from the MSM. White Christians really don’t give a shit about Muslims, which is why nobody cares about the constant bullshit the cops and federal law enforcement throw at them.
Iowa Old Lady
Welcome, Zaid.
danimal
Welcome aboard. I’m worried about your judgement already…posting on the Israel/Palestinian conflict as a first post AND failing to post pet photos, I shudder to read the comments. BJ is a tough crowd.
On topic…As a person with partial Jewish heritage, I’m continually surprised at American support for Israel. It’s virtually a blank check. I was at a family dinner with some gentile conservatives last week, and the parroting of the Likud line was amazing. I was the only person with Jewish roots at the dinner, and I was clearly the only person able to understand the Palestinian perspective. It seems that the only people willing to criticize Israel are Arab Muslims (for obvious reasons) and Jews with a conscience/brain. These are strange days.
Alexandra
Front page debut at Balloon Juice… and no pet pictures?
Tsk.
Corner Stone
…The Aristocrats!
Trollhattan
I join the others in a hardy welcome, and look forward to your input on this vastly complicated mess. I have a lot to learn….
SatanicPanic
Welcome, and don’t let the pet people scare you- they’re all bark and no bite
TG Chicago
Nice post. I’m glad to see Israel-related posts here. And I had no idea about a DeBlasio-Avigdor Lieberman connection. Bummer.
Small typo: towards the end of graf 4 you say “…that are making a Palestinian state their impossible.” Should be “there”. Sorry for the nitpick. Looking forward to future posts.
Corner Stone
Is this the same as the dreaded Professional Left I have been so sternly warned about?
Or more likely, the co-opted Pro WH/Pro CoC Democrats?
beltane
Welcome, Zaid! We’re glad your’e here.
SatanicPanic
But seriously, “should place the South in solidly Democratic territory within the next decade” I don’t know dude, this strikes me as unlikely
Trollhattan
@Alexandra:
Silly, he has a pet DeBlasio.
Corner Stone
Make that two decades and no SCOTUS stacking by a Republican POTUS and there’s no doubt.
Antonius
Perceptive post, thanks.
beltane
@SatanicPanic: Maybe portions of the South, but as for the whole region…No.
Baud
Next you’ll be blaming Israel for your lack of pet photos, amirite?
.
.
.
.
Welcome, Zaid.
Karen in GA
Welcome Zaid!
@Hunter Gathers: What you said.
Josie
Welcome, Zaid. Glad to see a post on the Israel Palestine mess that makes so much sense. More importantly, do you have pets?
raven
This poor dude is saying WTF, pets??????
Violet
Welcome Zaid. Got any pets?
pseudonymous in nc
@danimal:
To most Americans, it’s a concept, not a place. It’s easy to support concepts.
Corner Stone
@raven: Shanna, he bought his ticket, he knew what he was getting into. I say, let ’em crash.
TR
Obama should’ve kneecapped Bibi when he started meddling with the 2012 election. Fucking asshole.
Kylroy
@Hunter Gathers: Just to throw even more cynicism on this issue, the comment about NYC Arabs not having enough influence/money made me wonder…do they have enough numbers to seriously influence elections? The reason Chris Christie became their unlikely defender is because (it’s my understanding) NJ *does* have a sufficiently large Arab population to make their votes worth pursuing.
The black population in America is significant, and tied to arguably the most shameful legacy of the country’s creation. Unless the Arab population of the US grows substantially, I can’t see any but the crassest oppression of them having a political downside (excepting certain areas that have large numbers of Arabs) – that coming wave of Democratic voters is largely Hispanic, and I just don’t see why they’d care more about Arabs than white people currently do.
SatanicPanic
@beltane: yup, Texas, probably. Alabama… may be a bit outta reach
Kylroy
@SatanicPanic: And even if it does, those voters willl be Hispanic, not Arab. I don’t see why they woukd care more about Arab rights than white people currently do.
Anoniminous
Welcome Zaid!
danimal
@pseudonymous in nc: It’s more than a concept, I think it’s a Revelation.
(In other words, a result of piss-poor Christian theology that masquerades as support for Israel until the good guys meet Jesus in the air.)
KXB
I grew up on Long Island, but now live in Chicago. I enjoy visiting NY for the holidays, but it really is noticeable how much more Jewish it is when compared to Chicago. Chicago’s current mayor, Rahm Emmanuel, is Jewish and was even a volunteer in the IDF, but he keeps mum on Israel-Palestine. He even had to distance himself from some anti-Arab comments that his father made. Chicago does not have the deep reservoir of Jewish donors and interest groups that exist in NY, which would allow a candidate to ignore other interest groups. What is also notable is that Jews dominate the social, political, and economic scene in the NY metro area, to a degree that surpasses their WASP predecessors. While Illinois officeholders largely toe the AIPAC line, they generally do not prostrate themselves the way they do in NY.
Corner Stone
@SatanicPanic: Texas, GA, NC, probably FL. All within 20 years, but probably not 10. Throw in AZ and a solidly blue CO and the R’s won’t be able to win a presidential election for some time without a huge crackup.
F
Complicated? Simple. One word. AIPAC.
iami
I mostly agree with what’s been stated in this post, but having also lived in the south and the northeast, the south is by no means more integrated than the north. Granted, almost nowhere is well integrated outside of a few metro areas in this entire country, but in the extremely rural areas of the south, the segregation is still nearly absolute with dual populations living physically near each other but interacting almost exclusively with their own kind within parallel social/economic systems.
This is, however, rapidly changing with the newer generations. They’re learning their social norms more from media than their actual surroundings (which is both a blessing and a curse sociologically), and thus are not nearly as enmeshed in the casual (and subconscious) racism that has permeated much of the dominant southern culture since its “founding”.
That said, the comparison to Dixiecrats I do find to be insightful. I hadn’t thought of it that way previously, but it does appeal to same sorts of mental disconnects (with respect to social empathy) that characterized the Dixiecrat movement back in the day (and much of the Tea Party in the here and now).
ranchandsyrup
glad you’re here Zaid. good stuff
Corner Stone
So Zaid, what about NBC pulling Ayman Mohyeldin out of Gaza? any thoughts?
KG
@danimal: for some of the true believers it’s probably a revelation. but i think for most, it’s a concept as pseudonymous in nc said. the same way that America is a concept as much as a country, Israel because of it’s origin story (for lack of a better term) is as much a concept as it is a country. and not only are concepts easy to support, they are so very susceptible to the No True Scotsman Fallacy.
SatanicPanic
@Corner Stone: I’ve been telling all my hipster friends to move to Austin to help it along ;)
RobertDSC-iPhone 4
Welcome, Zaid.
KG
@Corner Stone: just remember, they were saying the same thing about Democrats in 1990 (even in ’92 despite, you know, evidence, the conventional wisdom was that Perot cost Bush more than he did Clinton)… then California had Prop 187 and the decade saw some interesting population shifts that changed the numbers.
Corner Stone
@SatanicPanic: NooOOooOOoo!!
/Vader
LanceThruster
Welcome Zaid!
—–
from: http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/Encyclopedia/PerlmanFredy/antisemitism.htm
The trick of declaring war against the armed resistance and then attacking the resisters’ unarmed kin as well as the surrounding population with the most gruesome products of Death-Science — this trick is not new. American Pioneers were pioneers in this too; they made it standard practice to declare war on indigenous warriors and then to murder and burn villages with only women and children in them. This is already modern war, what we know as war against civilian populations; it has also been called, more candidly, mass murder or genocide.
Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised that the perpetrators of a Pogrom portray themselves as the victims, in the present case as victims of the Holocaust.
Herman Melville noticed over a century ago, in his analysis of the metaphysics of Indian-hating, that those who made a full-time profession of hunting and murdering indigenous people of this continent always made themselves appear, even in their own eyes, as the victims of manhunts.
The use the Nazis made of the International Jewish Conspiracy is better known: during all the years of atrocities defying belief, the Nazis considered themselves the victimized.
It’s as if the experience of being a victim gave exemption from human solidarity, as if it gave special powers, as if it gave a license to kill.
~ Fredy Perlman
Central Planning
I, for one, welcome our new non-pet picture posting overlord.
gene108
I will never understand for the life of me the sentiment of a guy like Rep. Nadler.
Jews have been really, really successful in the U.S.A.
Schumer, Bloomberg, Seinfeld, et. al. are not second class citizens because they are Jewish.
Being Jewish in America is no impediment to being a leader in your field.
Also, there are 14 million Jews worldwide. I think about 6 million Jews live in Israel and around 5.5 million live in the USA. In short, the U.S.A. has a massive Jewish population, relative to the available number of Jews in the world.
Jews have been successful here.
I do not understand why Jews are afraid of a second Holocaust happening in the U.S.A., if Israel is not defended in everything it does.
Yeah, there are anti-Semites who’d kill Jews. Same way there are folks, who went after Sikhs, in the wake of 9/11/01, because they thought they were Arabs. In Jersey City, NJ, in the 1980’s, there was an Asian Indian hate group that called itself the Dotbusters, but Asian Indians still are not giving the Indian government blind support in everything it does or stopped wanting to immigrate here or feel they cannot be accepted in American society.
I just do not understand why American Jews live in a state of constant fear, at some very deep level, when they are very successful in the U.S.A. and I’d say more successful than the Jews in Israel.
Here’s a list of Jewish Nobel Laureates. There are a lot more, from the USA than Israel.
Kropadope
@danimal: I’m not Jewish or Arab (raised Catholic) and I certainly feel for the Palestinians
Corner Stone
@KG: I don’t remember them saying that about D’s back in the early 90’s. I do recall the “Permanent Republican Majority” of recent vintage.
But, IMO, taking nothing for granted, if D’s just don’t start going on live TV and call AA’s “colored folk” or tell the Spics they aren’t wanted, then with some work/effort the demographic shift will reward D’s in far greater percentages than R’s.
We just have to get SCOTUS back within 10 years or so and then the following 10 will produce wide D gains.
Corner Stone
@F:
I don’t think that’s one word…
Corner Stone
Oh, hey there Richard Engel on MSNBC.
Baud
@Corner Stone:
Is he in Ukraine or Gaza or both?
Betty Cracker
Welcome, Zaid, from a vacationing co-blogger. Glad you’re here to provide your unique perspective.
Corner Stone
Tanks, artillery, backed up by the Israeli Air Force.
This will end well.
Jane2
Welcome, Zaid! I look forward to reading your analyses and am heartily thankful that there will be an alternative to the usual pro-Israel response to the “terrorists”.
However, I do not see a pet pic…I assume this is an oversight.
Corner Stone
@Baud: Gaza. NBC pulled Ayman Mohyeldin and replaced him with their Chief Foreign Correspondent, R Engel.
Mnemosyne
@KXB:
FWIW, that’s partly because Chicago is dominated by Roman Catholics of various nationalities (primarily Polish, Italian and Irish, but also many others, including a good-sized contingent of African-Americans). Other religions were never quite able to get a toehold.
pat
Welcome, Zaid. I am disgusted and appalled by what the Israelis are doing in Gaza, and look forward to your posts.
Mnemosyne
@gene108:
That’s still of surprisingly recent vintage, though. It was very controversial when Jerry Seinfeld insisted on using his real last name as the title of his show and didn’t change it to, say, “Stewart.” It’s only within the past 20 years or so that Jewish people in popular culture have been really “out and proud” about it.
mclaren
No good will come of dragging the Israeli-Palestinian tarbaby into U.S. politics. If you hadn’t noticed, Western civilization based on rationality and evidence and the rule of law and basic freedoms is embroiled in a fight for its survival against neo-Confederate billionaires and far-right fringe lunatics.
The big issues America faces right now aren’t the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as much as it breaks my heart to say so. The big issues America faces right now boil down to whether this country will become an armed garrison camp under effective martial law with citizens who are serfs owned by giant corporations and no rule of law. Unless we Democrats prevail on that one, the rest of makes no difference.
Corner Stone
I’m sorry Rev Al, but they just don’t train commercial pilots to dodge a rocket doing MACH 6.
Because, why? That 777 isn’t going anywhere but down.
CarolDuhart2
@Kylroy: Hispanics know about discrimination and oppression and prejudice-not much better than blacks. Freed from dispensationalist theology and a need to justify privilege, they will feel for their Arab neighbors.
Interesting enough to consider: those Jews who support Israel do or die have failed to realize that things have changed, and a lot of the change is demographic. A minority-majority nation isn’t going to bring back Hitler.
another Holocene human
When you say northeast is that metanony for NYC? When I left Boston I was peripherally involved in the anti-Iraq War movement and they were doing peer education about Palestine.
Also, tumblr and lefties on Facebook are not anti Muslim. If anything there’s a Cleek’s Law inversion where everything a RWNJ hates must be good without reservation. Also, sjw tumblr has a seedy anti-Semitic underbelly.
With gene on theUS. The Americas were the new Zion. Israel is becoming Europe’s big excuse for jew-hating redux, as if they needed an excuse and seriously, who wants to live that way, imprisoning an entire population?
CarolDuhart2
@mclaren: But we get dragged into the conflict because we fund the mess, and because we unconditionally support Israel no matter what they do against the ill-feeling against the world.
Plus Israel has been trying to drag us into a war with Iran.
LanceThruster
THE CORIANDER DEATH CAMP MEME — WP
KXB
@Mnemosyne:
And, given the jockeying for power among those groups, their Catholicism was not enough the hold them together. While Hispanics have made inroads onto the city council, they are still below their numbers in police and fire departments.
another Holocene human
@Mnemosyne: The women went first: Barbra Streisand, Bette Midler.
gene108
@Mnemosyne:
I get that Jews were not always given the warm friendly reception. No minority in the USA has a warm fuzzy feeling about being loved and wanted by everyone in this country. It’s a big step from knowing there are pockets of bigots, where you just should not go near, to thinking you will suffer another Holocaust. Nadler started off about stating people want to obliterate the Jews from the face of the Earth.
I just do not get that sentiment, when you have been personally very successful and have very successful people from your ethnic group all over this country.
Regarding Seinfeld using his name, you had Mel Brooks, Larry Fine and the Howard brothers, and other Jews having success in entertainment/comedy for a generation or two before Seinfeld.
Being Jewish was not an explicit bar on professional success.
Also, the entertainment industry used to be really big on forcing people to change their name to conform to some imaginary standard. Hell, Tom Cruise dropped his real last name of Mapother, when he got into show business. Warren Beatty and his sister Shirely MacLaine both tweaked their birth names, when they got into show business. Marilyn Monroe is a pretty big departure from Norma Jean.
Just sayin’ changing your name for show business was a lot more common practice than it is today and it wasn’t just for Jews.
replicnt6
Here, let me try: Jews were quite successful and highly assimilated in Western Europe prior to the Holocaust. Indeed, it was in part their success that made conspiracy theories like Protocols of the Elders of Zion stick. This helped them very little.
I don’t think it’s at all likely to happen again. I don’t think the fear is rational. But having something like half of your ethnic group exterminated in the memory of people who are still alive, well, it leaves a mark.
That said, if there were to be some kind of official anti-semitism in the US, Israel would be toast. So it’s not like it really offers any insurance. But, again, I don’t think it’s a rational thing.
geg6
Disgusting stuff from people I would normally consider to be “my people” (I’m not Jewish, but I’m certainly a leftie).
I’m done with Israel. Just done. I don’t care a whit what happens to that country or anyone who live there. I’m now 100% with the poor people of Gaza. If that whole calorie count stuff is true, they have become the monster that they fled 70-80 years ago. They are not worth saving or helping.
Mnemosyne
@gene108:
Um, yes, it was, which is why Jewish performers changed their names. Mel Brooks’ original last name was Kaminsky. The Howard brothers’ last name was Horwitz. Fine’s last name was Feinberg. Jon Stewart was not born Jon Stewart. Etc. Jerry Seinfeld using his own, unmistakably Jewish last name as the title for a TV show was a still big deal in the freakin’ 1990s.
Changing your name for the stage is common, but for Jewish performers, it was required, and the purpose was to conceal that the performer was Jewish. That’s what you don’t seem to be getting here.
Mnemosyne
And, well, that’s the other large donor group to Israel that is not discussed in this article: people in the entertainment industry. It’s difficult to talk about, because it plays into the whole Jews control the media! anti-Semitic paranoia that is still alive in some people, but it is true that there are a lot of people in California who are very rich, support Democrats to the tune of millions of dollars, and also blindly support Israel. It’s certainly not monolithic — Steven Spielberg expressed some of his reservations about the direction Israel went as a country in Munich — but it’s there.
Helen
Hi Zaid. Welcome. Sometimes I think “Oh gosh another Israel post” because here at BJ we tend to all say the same thing and take the same side. Meaning, it’s the same conversation over and over again. But – one thing I said a few days ago when commenting was that I know so little about the Israel and Palestine conflict – that, well, I really cannot comment. Of course as a BJ commenter I continued to comment and talked about Northern Ireland. Anyway my point is: most Americans do not know what really is going on. A bit of true real education would be most welcome.
Cheers – and once again, welcome.
J R in WV
Welcome Zaid, do you have any pets?
Sorry, I just couldn’t help that. Regarding your first piece posted here on Balloon-Juice:::
When I was a kid, I read a lot of history of WW II, about the pogroms of Czarist Russia, the death camps and the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. The Jews of Europe finally gave up on living safely in Europe, and wanted to take the Zionist path to Israel.
In the historical novels of Leon Uris the travails of the migrants from Europe to British Palestine were described in horrific detail. From reading those novels, it appeared that the Zionists bought land from the Arab land owners in order to found collective farms that their people could flee to as Europe became awash in blood, some of it Jewish.
At some point, looking at historical maps of the region, I noticed that the country now referred to as “Jordan” was then called Trans-Jordanian Palestine, and I wondered why Palestine wasn’t a home land for Palestinians – why were they in refugee camps?
I read a lot, still do. I’m more cynical and critical nowadays. Now I know that the Hashimite Kings of Jordan didn’t want revolutionary Arabs to interfere with their good gig as rulers of Jordan (NOT Trans-Jordanian Palestine!!).
Then came the 1967 war, and the occupation of the west bank. The displacement of lots of people in war time isn’t unusual, but this was different – it looked a lot like theft of land to me.
That’s pretty harsh… here in West Virginia property disputes are very serious things. There are hard-nosed lawyers who refuse to take clients with right-of-way or property line disputes – because so often these cases here in WV lead to violence. I refer you to the Hatfield – McCoy feud !!
So now, I think the Ultra-orthodox Rabbis and the Likudniks are destroying any chance the Jewish peoples had for a peaceful homeland in the historical Israel. Single handedly they have converted me from a sympathetic Zionist to someone who thinks the leadership of Israel need to be taken out back to the woodshed and taught to get along with the rest of the neighborhood!
But I spend more time worrying about the right wing here at home, just as crazy as the Wahabi Muslims and the Ultra-Orthodox Jews, and the Opus Dei Catholics, speaking Latin on Sunday, against the wishes of their Pope.
We have Republicans who refuse to pronounce the name of the majority party correctly – we aren’t the Democrat Party, no matter what the Rethugs wish to call us.
We have Republicans who want to keep control of Israel just so to enable strange religious predictions in Revelations to come to pass in their lifetime. They want to control the minds and bodies of the women in their lives, and the women in our lives as well.
They want to control voting rules to prevent African-Americans, and Latinos, and Democrats from voting, so that they can win elections with a minority of the population voting. If they can’t win the election, they have so little honor they will use courts to steal the election.
Any judge willing to rule in favor of the party that appointed them to the bench has no honor, no more than a politician willing to use crooked judges to assume an office they weren’t elected to. Of course, here I’m speaking of former president George “Shrub” W Buch, the first honor-free president in many decades.
Well, actually Reagan was pretty honor free, having conspired with Iranian revolutionaries to hold American Diplomats hostage in order to aid his campaign for the presidency. Iran-Contra conspiracy, also, too.
Maybe, just maybe, he was already suffering from dementia, which might mean it wasn’t his lack of honor, just his inability to think that caused the dishonorable actions of his office. Maybe. I want to think that, but really, I think a lack of honor shows itself when one’s – uumm – ability to conceal one’s lack of honor is disabled by one’s gradual lack of shrewd thinking.
Anyway, airliners shot down, invasions of Gaza, black voting organizers being arrested for winning elections in white counties in Georgia, refugees fleeing death squads in Central America, all that aside,
Welcome to Balloon-Juice, Zaid! Glad to have you with us, hand on, sometimes the turbulence gets rough. Also, get a fuzzy pet, or hook up with a friend with cats, or copy pictures from other web sites, something. We find that pets looking silly help us deal with the horror that is modern life in this world.
Wow – this is as long as Zaid’s article! Sorry about that, it is a complex subject, maybe next time we can talk about pets?
Welcome…
SectarianSofa
Welcome Zaid. I’m glad you’re writing about this. Yet another very sad and very asymmetrical story in this conflict.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mnemosyne: Haim Saban comes to mind. The only thing he loves more than the Clintons is Israel.
joel hanes
@geg6:
Out of carefully-cultured fear of a demonized Other, Israel’s voters have allowed themselves to be politically dominated by their theocratic hard-right minority. More rational Israelis are going along to get along, minding their own business, just trying to avoid trouble with their Likudnik neighbors.
Just as the entire Democratic Congressional caucus did during W’s Reign of Error.
Just as the “Good Germans” did in 1940.
Hannah Arendt was right.
Susanne
Just FYI, there have been “death to the Jews” marches in very civilized and assimilated Paris and Antwerp in the last few days. A synagogue in Paris was surrounded and people threw rocks and bricks and screamed death to the Jews. Three days ago, not 70 years ago. They weren’t chanting death to Israel. They were chanting death to the Jews. I’m a child of Holocaust survivors. If I’d been born just a little while before I was born, I would have been gassed instantly. So, yeah, we’re a little sensitive about anti-Semitism, such as the sort I’ve been reading above. I’m maybe a little over-sensitive, maybe a little too afraid, but I’m just wondering, how come we haven’t had these threads about the Sudan? Or Somalia? Or Syria? Or even Ukraine? How come nobody wishes those countries to disappear Lots of people are being unbelievably filthy to each other in dozens of places around the world. But no. Everybody here is “just done” with Israel and wishes it death. It’s one tiny corner among 1 billion Arabs who are happy to help the Palestinians with armaments but refuse to help them with education or employment or a home or in any way that will actually make their lives better. It’s much more useful to those wealthy oligarchies to have the common enemy of Israel, to draw attention away from their own failings. I’m really disappointed with John for having invited Jilani to write here so I got to see the disgusting undercurrent that festers here. I’ve been reading Balloon Juice for years and years but, before now, I never realized how unwelcome I was. I’m done, not with Israel, but with Balloon Juice. It makes me very sad.
rikyrah
Good Post. Thanks for the info.
Kropadope
@Susanne: Is America providing Sudan with the arms to kill it’s own people?
I don’t think anyone here wishes Israel to death, but good job taking sentiment against Israeli government policy and conflating it with the genocidal tendencies of other people not present. Way to be the problem.
Susanne
Incidentally, Israel computed the calories that were required to keep everyone in Gaza healthy during the blockade. They wanted to be sure that they were supplying enough food to everyone so no one would get sick. Not a concentration camp. I understand my parents were allotted less than 500 calories a day when they were in the concentration camps. It was supposed to be enough to keep them alive for a couple of months of hard labor after which they would die of starvation. See the difference? http://www.projectcensored.org/20-israel-counted-minimum-calorie-needs-gaza-blockade/ via @@ProjectCensored
Kropadope
@Susanne: Enough junk food for the Palestinians? How thoughtful…
Mnemosyne
@Susanne:
Nobody here wishes Israel death. We just are tired of paying billions of dollars to Israel so they can use it to kill Palestinian children in front of journalists.
One of the reasons people like myself get so frustrated is that there seems to be no understanding that there is fault on both sides. You see Israel as merely defending itself, while Palestinians see their land being stolen from them with no compensation, and both sides are angry about that. Where does it end?
As I’ve said before, it seems obvious now that the only possible solution is a one-state solution, with full citizenship rights for Palestinians. The only thing that “independence” has done is allow Israel to set up an apartheid system in the Bantustans of Gaza and West Bank, which are no more “free” than the South African ones were in their apartheid days.
Mnemosyne
@Susanne:
From your link:
Um, yeah, that article isn’t quite as exculpatory as you think.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Susanne: I think that you are imputing anti-Semitic feelings to comments that are at most anti-Israel and more than likely anti-currant government of Israel. That being said i have seen comments on this blog but not in this thread that come dangerously close to equating Israeli with Jew and Jew with Israeli. OTOH, you seem to be doing the same thing from the other side.
FWIW I am pro-Israel’s right to exist and pro-Israel’s right to defend itself. But the country’s policies toward the Palestinians have been atrocious for a long time and seem to keep getting worse. That’s pretty damned hard to defend, wouldn’t you say?
Corner Stone
@Susanne:
What?
Corner Stone
@Mnemosyne:
Is this some kind of meta snark? Or just you being a disgusting monster?
Susanne
@Kropadope: see Barry and Geg6 above. Geg6’s comment is the one that who got me fired up to write the comment. Israel isn’t evil. Israel is necessary. Netanyahu is evil. He’s Cheney’s doppelgänger in the Mideast. But I didn’t condemn America to oblivion because Cheney and the US were committing war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan. I loved America enough to pray it would recover from the disease that the Bush administration infected it with. When we see the back of Netanyahu it will be hope for Israel again. But Israel has to survive. They’re too many people in the world who are very eager to shout Death to the Jews.
chmatl
Welcome, Zaid. I just read your bio, and it says you grew up in Kennesaw, GA. Howdy neighbor! I was born and raised in Kennesaw and now live in Marietta. Small world.
Also, nice inaugural post.
Kropadope
@Corner Stone: There is fault on both sides, but one is accruing fault way faster, passed the other, and has been miles ahead for years.
Violet
@Susanne:
That’s ridiculous. The world will go on if Israel doesn’t exist. Israel is no more or less necessary than any other country. The world will go on if the USA or Russia or Chile or any other country ceases to exist. Hell, the world will go on if humans cease to exist.
Kropadope
@Susanne: Oh, you mean those anti-Israeli (as in not specifically anti-Jewish) comments they made? Nice try.
Susanne
@Mnemosyne: yeah. How horrible to cut some supplies to a country they were at war with. The nerve.
Corner Stone
@Kropadope: No one side is perfect. But you can’t say “both sides” at this point.
One “side” gets to wait around every day until a world power backed army decides it wants to come in, bulldoze homes in collective punishment, use ordnance against civilians and basically do whatever the fuck it feels like with impunity.
Corner Stone
@Susanne:
Ok. From incredulous to flat fucking spoof.
Thanks for the larfs.
Mnemosyne
@Susanne:
Also, looking at this chart on WebMD, the average daily calorie requirement they chose is at least 200 calories below what the average man requires, and up to 1,000 calories less depending on activity level. Interesting.
Susanne
@Mnemosyne: I couldn’t disagree more. There has to be a two state solution. If the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank become citizens of Israel, Israel simply ceases to exist as a Jewish homeland. In a generation or so, the Jews would be very vastly outnumbered. And yes, Israel is necessary. There has to be a place for us to fight from when the world decides that death to the Jews is acceptable slogan again.
Mnemosyne
@Susanne:
When you completely control the food supply to an area, yes, it’s horrible to cut it. That’s what they did in Sudan, and we called it a war crime. Why is it not a war crime when Israel does it?
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
It’s difficult to criticize the government of Israel without people accusing those doing the criticizing of being anti-Semitic. Israel and Jews are linked because Israel is “the Jewish state”. It’s founding and reason for existence is because of Jews and Judaism. So yeah, you criticize the Israeli government and people get completely up in arms that you’re criticizing Jews or being anti-Semitic.
Culture of Truth
Republicans are not blamless, either. When virtually every single GOP politician, and majorities of voters opposed, often viruently, the so called ‘ground zero mosque’, including Giuliani, Pataki, McCain, Romney, Peter King, Gingirch, Palin, (and Joe Lieberman and national Dems Howard Dean, and some Muslims as well,) defending it were Nadler, DiBlasio, Quinn, Liu, Gillibrand, Pelosi, and Deval Patrick.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Violet: Jesus, look at the typos in the blockquote. Embarrassing.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
Mmmm…currants…
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Corner Stone: Yeah, I know.
Susanne
Thank you all for the respectful discussion. I still think I’m pretty much done with balloon juice. I hope Cole gets better fast. I’ll miss the pets.
Mnemosyne
@Susanne:
Israel has to make a choice: either they stay within their current borders, abandon the settlements, and return all Palestinian land to its owners or they get all the land but make the Palestinians equal citizens which would, yes, make Israel not a majority Jewish state anymore.
Israel has backed itself into this corner. They wanted to have it both ways: to have full control over an all-Jewish state, but also steal the Palestinians’ land with no compensation. Now Israel is so entwined economically with Gaza and the West Bank that there is no turning back and splitting into two states.
The only other option is flat-out genocide — kill all of the remaining Palestinians and take over Gaza and the West Bank. Are you willing to support that just so you can have a Jewish state?
BobS
@Susanne: You’ve convinced me Susanne. If Nazi concentration camps were a 10/10 on a scale of the atrocities humans can inflict on each other, the ongoing Israeli siege of Gaza is only 7 or 8. You should be very proud.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Screw the typos. I thought it was a great comment.
Mnemosyne
@Susanne:
If you can’t see that Israel is not the blameless victim then, yes, it’s pointless. Enjoy watching your genocide in the coming days — you demanded it, and now you’re getting it.
Violet
@Susanne:
Wow. Okay. That’s a lot of fear driving your decision-making and beliefs. You believe “the world” will “decide it’s okay to kill Jews again.” Like it’s set in stone. It’s a matter of when not if.
It’s not possible to discuss things logically when talking to that much fear.
MattR
@Mnemosyne: The average calorie level the Israeli’s calculated came from using a similar chart and applying it to the Palestinian population. The estimates on slide 7 of the initial report (page 8 of the PDF) or slide 4 of the revised report (page 24) appear to be in line with the moderate activity numbers in your link or a bit above them (though still below the “active” recommendations)
WaterGirl
Never mind. I answered my own question.
JC
Thanks for the new info:
a. Didn’t know about the sniper fire that killed two Palestinians, prior to the 3 Israelis shot. Any more information around that circumstance? Naka day protests, and conflicting information (of course), about who started shooting.
b. The political information about sabotaging possible attempts at peace, by the Israeli government, isn’t a surprise. Thus, seizing on the Israeli deaths, to ‘mow the grass’, or engage in a systematic weeding out of lists of palestinian leaders, those with power, and destroying what israel thinks needed to be destroyed in Gaza. The actual intent is to keep both West Bank and Gaza weak.
The conflict is the same though – Netanyahu protests the joining of Hamas and West Bank – the unity of Hamas and Fatah – because Hamas is an enemy.
Which, happens to be true.
As long as here are tunnels in Gaza, and rockets are brought in, and launched, Israel will continue to do all the things it has been doing. Which amount to collective punishment, and keeping Palestinians weak.
It may be the case that Israel would continue doing the same thing, if West Bank or Gaza, went the full Gandhian protest method. We simply don’t know.
But asymmetric warfare, as practiced by the Palestinian people, hasn’t worked for 40 years now. And only gets Palestinians killed.
Asymmetric warfare didn’t really work in Northern Ireland, either.
But this is worse, for Palestinians, because there isn’t a shared history of ‘being Irish’, which motivated people to figure out a solution. That doesn’t exist for the Palestinians and Israelis. In this case, Israeli can keep this up forever. Especially since bombing hardens attitudes, in Israel.
Isn’t it also the case that Hamas is a fundamentalist, eliminationist movement, associated with the Muslim Brotherhood?
Hamas can’t even get Egypt’s sympathy, to open the border, to let in supplies for it’s people.
You can’t tell me this is a political leadership that is “Winning friends and influencing people”.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@WaterGirl: Different people. The architect is on vacation.
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): I figured you were on a phone or tablet. That’s why I didn’t point them out. Did make me think of currants, though. Yum!
CarolDuhart2
@Susanne: You really believe that? Why? Europe has changed and gotten browner. The United States has gotten more diverse. Even casual racism gets a push-back these days, and groups who try more than that are being thwarted by a combination of police work and public shaming.
Would China with few Jews do that? What about another rising power, India? How many Jews there, and would those folks care?
BTW, if the whole world turned anti-semitic, would Israel make a difference?
Culture of Truth
A billion Arabs? No.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Suzanne has a dirty mouth when it comes to sex. Susanne apparently has a dirty mouth when it comes to apartheid.
Corner Stone
@Susanne:
Peace be upon you in your journey.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Yeah, I figured it out after I pressed submit. The age was wrong, the tone was wrong, and she didn’t tell anyone to fuck off.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Forgot to say… finally got back to last night’s thread and saw your reply to me. Fun story, thanks for telling it.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Susanne: Gosh, a GBCW diary? Did you confuse this place for the GOS?
Violet
@Comrade Scrutinizer: I thought the same thing. I didn’t know we did GBCW diaries here.
Johnny Yuma
Here’s an idea. Hamas should stop lobbing missiles into the sovereign state of Israel.
Mnemosyne
@MattR:
I find the fact that they made Excel charts to calculate to the gram exactly how much food to send in order to (barely) avoid malnutrition to be absolutely fucking horrifying. And, yes, it does remind me of calculations that were made regarding the Jews in the past. Sorry to Godwinize, but I’m sick to my stomach right now.
SiubhanDuinne
@chmatl:
I’m northeast (Duluth), have met a couple of Juicers IRL and talked on the phone with more. If you would ever want to be part of a metro-Atlanta area meet-up, please say the word. If we’re super sweet to him, we could probably even get Raven to come over from Athens.
Corner Stone
@Comrade Scrutinizer: Heck I thought it was pretty clear.
Corner Stone
@Johnny Yuma: Agreed. What should Israel also commit to?
Mnemosyne
@JC:
I’ve been watching the downward spiral of Israel ever since Rabin’s assassination. I know what would happen if the Palestinians unilaterally disarmed. It would be the Cave of the Patriarchs times 100.
The problem with a situation like this is that there is no unilateral solution. With both sides this heavily armed, having the weaker side voluntarily disarm would be suicide.
The only reason Northern Ireland was able to come to a solution was that Sinn Fein was allowed to enter the government as an equal partner and have the entire region be united in a single government. That’s pretty much what my one-state proposal is. Good luck getting people to accept it.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Corner Stone: And who should commit first?
coin operated
Beautiful. Just fucking beautiful. Welcome to the blog Zaid.
geg6
@Susanne:
Fuck you. I spoke of Israel, not Jews. The Jews I know are pretty much as disgusted with Israel as I am. No country is “necessary”, not even this one. Stick your excuses for starving and killing innocents up your ass and rotate.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): I think it’s Baud who usually comments first.
Oh, you said commit. Sorry.
(You posed an excellent question, by the way, and here I am goofing on it. Oh well.)
Corner Stone
@WaterGirl: It’s a somewhat stressful night. I commit to comment on current currants.
Johnny Scrum-half
@Johnny Yuma: ii
I agree. The Palestinians need their own Gandhi or MLK to lead non-violent protests. Until that happens, they’re giving the Israelis enough basis to argue that they’re simply defending themselves.
Johnny Scrum-half
@Johnny Yuma: ii
I agree. The Palestinians need their own Gandhi or MLK to lead non-violent protests. Until that happens, they’re giving the Israelis enough basis to argue that they’re simply defending themselves.
Johnny Scrum-half
The Palestinians need their own Gandhi or MLK to lead non-violent protests. Until that happens, they’re giving the Israelis enough basis to argue that they’re simply defending themselves.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Corner Stone: Gosh are you going to keep harping on that. In my town people sure as heck would have dropped it by now..
CarolDuhart2
Read Mondoweiss and other blogs. Palestinians have had peaceful demonstrations for years, and have gotten nothing for their efforts.
Corner Stone
@Johnny Scrum-half:
You and Tom Clancy.
He fatuously…I mean famously, wrote in a FICTION novel that the PA had finally learned how to defeat the Israeli Army. By passively sitting down in non-violent protest against their aggression.
Their armored bulldozers send their regards.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): My therapist tells me alliteration is good for the soul.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Corner Stone: You have a soul? Live and learn.
geg6
@CarolDuhart2:
THIS.
Israel is no better than their own worst nightmare. I’m not sure exactly why, but those little boys killed for playing on a beach were the last straw for me. I tossed my Golda Meir biography, a prized possession from my youth, into the garbage last night. Just looking at it nauseated me. I’m too old to be taken in by my youthful heroes any more. Except Gloria Steinem. She’s still pretty awesome.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): I might’ve misunderstood her as we were naked at the time. It might have been something about female sexy time parts.
CarolDuhart2
@geg6: Gloria Steinem is a keeper. Besides while folks lauded Golda for being a head of state, Gloria did far more for women than Golda ever could have done.
I am done too.
But I wonder what to do next to help? I created a hashtag, but obviously that’s not going to be enough. #PrayForGaza
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@CarolDuhart2: Meir was a head of government (prime minister) not a head of state. Not bad for a Milwaukee girl.
Kylroy
@CarolDuhart2: Irish – Americans knew plenty about opression, did not have a dispensationalist theology, nor any special privilege to protect, and they were largely really bad at empathizing with other oppressed groups.
Ksmiami
@geg6: I have a ton of Jewish friends but they are Americans first and understand that our strategic interests are being actively harmed by netanyahoo. I’ve supported Israel for years, but they’ve become a rogue state and we need to cut them off
CarolDuhart2
@Kylroy: But they were white-even though they were badly treated, they could pass if necessary-change their accent, move to another part of town. It’s different when your difference is through your appearance and you look like those “heathens”.
Kylroy
@CarolDuhart2: Not necessarily. Got red hair? Pale skin? Freckles? Even if our theoretical Irishman didn’t have these telltale signs, leaving your entire background behind takes more than an address change and elocution lessons.
More broadly, the previously-oppressed do not have a good track record of sticking up for the currently oppressed. It’s possible, certainly, but you’ll need to articulate a reason beyond empathy for me to agree with you.
Sly
@Johnny Scrum-half:
And the Israeli’s don’t need their own Hubert Humphrey or Clement Attlee?
These kinds of observations betray an infantilizing mindset of otherwise liberal critics of Palestine (and Arabs in general, and Africa, and etc). It is true that most revolutionary Palestinian movements are violent, but only because most revolutionary movements period are violent. As are most counter-revolutionary regimes, a descriptor that certainly fits the Israeli government with respect to Palestine in general and Gaza in particular. It is quite easy for someone to say, from the comfort of a computer chair, “Oh, bother, why can’t these people stop being so violent” when your own life and, more pressingly, the lives of your children aren’t at stake.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Kylroy:
Suzanne
@Susanne: Why should the Jews get a homeland all to themselves, especially in an area that already had people living there who were not a party to the Holocaust?
If anything, Europe needs to cough up some land.
But not every group gets a “homeland” of their own. I fail to see why this should be a goal.
Suzanne
Hmmm. Maybe I should tell someone to fuck off. Apparently I do that often.
Mnemosyne
@Johnny Scrum-half:
Interesting fact I learned recently: “the Troubles” in Northern Ireland started off as a peaceful, nonviolent movement by Roman Catholics to demand civil rights. But the Protestant militias and the Catholic response in kind put an end to that.
Please explain why you think that Israeli settlers — the same people who kidnapped a teenage boy and burned him to death only a few weeks ago — would react calmly to a nonviolent movement of Palestinians demanding their civil rights.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Suzanne: Yours is a distinctive voice.
Cervantes
@another Holocene human: Woody Allen.
Violet
@Suzanne: So good to hear from you. How was your trip?
Cervantes
Hi, Zaid. Nice work. Thanks.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): I don’t tell people to fuck off that often. It’s just that, when I do, I really, really mean it.
@Violet: We’re still on our trip, having a great time. We went to the Chichen Itza archaeological site today, and it was incredible. Didn’t see the news until we got back. So, so sad.
Kropadope
A quote from the Israeli Defense Force:
My emphasis. The sky-is-green world these people live in boggles the mind.
Cervantes
@Johnny Scrum-half:
Wait — is it your impression that there are no Palestinians (and Israelis) who have tried non-violent protest? Or are you suggesting they don’t count if the Israeli government has intimidated, deported, imprisoned, or killed them?
And by the way, about Gandhi himself: it’s nice that you admire him, really, it is, but are you aware how much violence was used by all sides in the struggle for/against Indian/Pakistani independence? It was not all tea and crumpets.
Sly
@Mnemosyne:
A non-violent revolutionary movement entails occupying segregated spaces until the authorities beat you, perhaps to death, without putting up any resistance in order to expose your opponents as brutal monsters.
In other words, its not anything that a morally sensible person would ask, let alone demand, someone else do without at the very least first doing it themselves. If Westerners want to wring their hands about the need for civil disobedience in Palestine, nothing is stopping them from traveling to the region and sitting in front of an IDF bulldozer as it flattens a Palestinian home. Nothing except fear of inevitable death.
Mnemosyne
@Cervantes:
Nope. Birth name Allen Konigsberg.
Cervantes
@Mnemosyne: True, but are you suggesting no one knew he was a Jew because he called himself “Woody Allen”?
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Cervantes: He’s JEWISH?
Mnemosyne
@Cervantes:
Read more carefully. The word “names” comes up several times.
ETA: I’m pretty sure people figured out that Al Jolson was Jewish when he played Jakie Rabinowitz, the cantor’s son, in “The Jazz Singer.” But he still had to change his name from Asa Yoelson.
WaterGirl
@Suzanne: I meant that in the nicest possible way. Besides, she was way too “poor me” to be you. You come off much stronger than that – *even when you’re unhappy.
Edited
Cervantes
@Mnemosyne:
That’s true — and so do the words “filibeg” and “ipiti” and “mugearite.” But here’s the part I was responding to:
Only since 1994 or so?
Have you, by any chance, heard of the Marx Brothers?
Mnemosyne
@Cervantes:
Do you really want me to start the conversation over again at the beginning so you can follow the thread that you seem to have lost?
Or at least riddle me this: why was Jerry Seinfeld pressured to either change his name or not use his last name as the title of his TV show if all of America was completely hunky-dory with Jewish performers in the 1990s? Why did NBC executives think his show was “too Jewish”?
Cervantes
@Mnemosyne:
No — anything but that.
Mnemosyne
@Cervantes:
Don’t make me turn this car around.
gene108
@Susanne:
Because the U.S. has never been terribly entangled in the affairs of those countries, and whatever involvement the U.S. has had did not lead to the sort blow back that has been directed at the U.S. from the Arab world from our involvement with Israel, such as the Arab oil embargo of the 1970’s.
Also, I think there is a large subset of Russians, who would prefer Ukraine no longer exist as a nation, as well as ISIS/ISIL wanting to redraw Syria’s borders.
@replicnt6:
You make a good point.
@Susanne:
What is ironic about your statement is the fact that if Palestinians were given full citizenship rights in Israel, the better access to education for girls, family planning and economic opportunities would reduce their birth rate in a generation, which would still preserve the Jewish majority in Israel for the foreseeable future.
Cain
Y’all should give Susanne from slack. Her parents were holocaust survivors, so it’s no wonder that she thinks the way she does. I can’t imagine the stories that was told. I suspect it is the same for a lot of older Jews in Northeast U.S. It’s only when they see themselves in Palestinian conflict will they reconcile the actions of Israel. Until then they will not be able to convince themselves that Israel’s actions are completely out of scale to the problems they are facing.
Perhaps if Palestinians started tattoo’ing barcodes on their arms…
Cain
BTW nice to see a person of similar background as mine on the front page. I hesitate to use the phrase “indian subcontinent”, but 70+ years of separation doesn’t change the fact we are more or less the same people with some varying bits of genetic differences.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Cain: I think a lot of us did cut her a bit of slack. However, I will admit that one of my best friends is Jewish and has gone off the deep end on Israel issues. I won’t talk about the issue with him anymore, because I value his friendship. When I met him in law school he was a bacon eating Jew. His first wife, one of our classmates (and a good friend of mine) dies of breast cancer about a year after the marriage (Fuck cancer, I mean, I watch this girl turn into an accomplished woman and fucking cancer takes her away? Fuck fucking cancer.). His religion helped him get through it. He moved from Reform to Conservative Judaism. Me, I was a groomsman and a pallbearer for the same person within a year. A couple of years later, I was a groomsman for my friend’s second wedding. I won’t fight with him about it.
Chris
First things first.
WELCOME, Zaid! I don’t just say that because I’m thrilled to get more input about politics in the South, or about post-9/11 anti-Muslim backlash (or the more uplifting reactions), or about the Israel/Palestine conflict, which I really am, in all three cases.
No, I’m saying that because based on the lack of a picture, it appears you MIGHT be one of the few people on this blog who isn’t a pet owner, and we need all the representation we can get.
So welcome!
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Chris: Hey, some of us are not currently pet owners because we are still morning the death of Beau the Magnificent* in 1985. Best dog ever.
*He had a very long name based on his perfect pedigree. I added “the Magnificent” to his every day name. I mean, who would shout that when the horny little bastard took a runner?
Chris
@Susanne:
Fuck yourself with the rustiest chainsaw in creation, you racist, eliminationist piece of shit.
You’re the one who dragged out a bogus study saying “how DARE you say that Israel is screwing up Gaza’s food supply! Israel is not screwing up Gaza’s food supply! Here is a link proving that Israel is not screwing up Gaza’s food supply!” People correctly called bullshit, pointed out that your assertion was bogus and your link didn’t support your own claims… so then you flip flopped to “Israel has the RIGHT to screw up Gaza’s food supply!”
If you think the side you support should get to do whatever it wants to whoever it wants, that’s your right. But the rest of us really aren’t obligated to join you in pretending that they’re not doing it and giving them a big box of cookiees under the pretense that they’re not doing it. If you want to starve people, we’re going to point out that it’s happening, and if that makes you feel unwelcome or unappreciated, that’s just too bad.
Chris
@Culture of Truth:
I think it’s pretty much universal in the U.S, unfortunately. Zaid’s comparison to the Southern Democrats is a good one: because the people he’s singling out may be the epitome and the worst example of an America-wide problem, but like white racism against blacks, it is, in fact, an America-wide problem.
I’m curious if New York Democrats really are the epitome, however: it’s always been my impression that religious right fundiegelicals, not Jews, are where the biggest bulk of Islamophobic and Israel Firster sentiment.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Chris: In any of the comments to Susanne, we should probably take into account that her parents were survivors of the Holocaust. I am sure that such a thing will affect a person’s point of view. OTOH, it does not, by any means, mean that she is correct.
Chris
@Corner Stone:
Don’t get me started on that fucking book.
@Cervantes:
This. I checked the last Israel/Palestine thread just before coming here and saw that someone had answered my last rant with “but they never tried Gandhi style nonviolent resistance.” All I can say… are you fucking serious? Of course they have. Never heard of prisoners going on hunger strikes, never heard of residents sitting in front of bulldozers as they go after their houses? Israel’s response, most of the time, is “meh,” and the American public’s an emphatic “meh!” No, not every last single Palestinian put down his guns in followed them, but who are we kidding? That didn’t happen in India either.
Chris
@Cain:
… all right. Acknowledged and good point.
But also noteworthy is that “cut this person some slack: he/his parents/his grandparents lived through the Holocaust” is… basically what’s been said about the state of Israel as a whole, and its actions in the international arena, for the last six or seven decades. “Don’t forget where people come from” is a true point, but it only goes so far. At some point, people tire of hearing a crime half a century in the past invoked against a backdrop of current, ongoing crimes that show no sign of letting up.
Not saying you don’t realize that, but it deserves to be pointed out all the same.
And yes, I know the argument passes forward to “just because you suffered under Israel doesn’t mean you get a pass for supporting Hamas,” as well.
Chris
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
Welp, NOW I just feel like an asshole.
As far back as it was, I am sorry about your dog.
Cervantes
@geg6:
She is, as they say, a national treasure.
Cervantes
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Being compassionate is a good thing, I agree. On the other, other hand, there are Holocaust survivors, and their children, who object to what Israel is doing and what its supporters are saying. Conclusion (and as you suggest): there is no Holocaust Survivor badge that confers infallibility upon its holder.
Cervantes
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
That is sad beyond words. My condolences to you and your friend.
Cervantes
@Mnemosyne: Are we there yet?
Cervantes
@Mnemosyne:
To the extent they thought that, it’s because they are weasels.
Cervantes
@Sly:
Not only that, there is sometimes a racist element to it as well.
Cervantes
@J R in WV: Excellent comment. I won’t belabor my caveats — thank you for writing.
Bobby Thomson
@Mnemosyne:
I have no memory of this, just of the show being unfunny and overrated.
Bobby Thomson
@another Holocene human:
David Steinberg, David Brenner, Phil Silvers, Groucho, Harpo, Chico, Zummo . . . . .
Kylroy
@Cervantes: And an element of unreality too. Gandhi himself noted that his methods required the people using them to be *capable* of effective violent resistance if they so chose – Israel has made sure Hamas can’t do more than lob a few missiles.
Glocksman
@Suzanne:
There’s a story I heard a long time ago.
It’s probably not true, but it expresses your feelings perfectly.
Supposedly President Truman sent an envoy to the Saudi King to drum up support for establishing the state of Israel.
The envoy described in detail the Holocaust and asked the Saudis for support in giving up land for a Jewish State.
The King shook his head in disgust upon hearing all of the gory details and said ‘Give them Bavaria’.
henqiguai
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name) (#178): Dead thread but variations of this keep popping up —
Yeah, not like there’s not something on the order of 30 million (just can’t recall the census numbers this morning) descendents of African slaves, and even those who hold in living memory experiences of Jim Crow, kicking around in this country right now. But apparently the Holocaust® is special?
Glocksman
@Cervantes:
I call it ‘Leave it to Beaver Syndrome’, or ‘Mayberry RFD Disease’.
Before BET and Univision proved that ethnic TV (for want of a better term) could succeed and be profitable, the NBC execs and others like them believed that only shows that reflected the majority of their audience in one way or another could be successful.
In other words, WASP programming, sometimes with Catholic or Jewish sidekicks.
Ironically some of the best TV shows of the period contraindicated this.
The Jeffersons is just one example.
Cervantes
@Glocksman: There’s “The Jeffersons,” yes.
But long before that, there was Desi Arnaz, the “I” in “I Love Lucy” — who was Cuban — and invented the re-run, which is nothing if not “popular culture.”
There was “Ponch,” who was … well, whatever he was, but he certainly was popular with the kids.
Plus “popular culture” isn’t necessarily limited to television.
Herman Wouk, Leon Uris, Saul Bellow, Bernard Malamud, Philip Roth — not all great writers but all popular already in the 1950s and 1960s, and none of them shy about being Jewish or writing about the Jewish experience.
Should I mention the Jackson Five and both Simon and Garfunkel? Not a WASP among them.
Do Mormons count as WASP? If not, treat yourself to the memory of The (Innumerable) Osmonds.
Mort Sahl was Jewish; Gilda Radner and Andy Kaufman, too. Joan Rivers was openly female and Jewish from the mid-’60s on.
Walter Matthau, Jack Klugman, Elliott Gould, Dustin Hoffman, and Richard Benjamin — none of them were passing.
Remember Zero Mostel in the ’50s, ’60s, and ’70s? Who on earth thought he was not Jewish?
Howard Stern on the radio in New York in the early ’80s? Definitely Jewish — and all too much a part of “popular culture.”
As for Sammy Davis, Jr., well, need I say more?
Anyhow: Why NBC’s executives did whatever it is they did with Seinfeld I have no idea — you may be right — but they were, and remain, weasels.
karen marie
Thank you, Zaid. I have Palestinian friends in Gaza who I have not heard from in quite a while. I am sick with worry, from listening to news reports and seeing photos of the carnage posted by Palestinian acquaintances on FB. I am also struck by the difference in response to the Malaysian plane shot down over Ukraine. The world is a bitter place.
Cervantes
@Mnemosyne:
I finally took a few minutes to look this up — and am not at all surprised by what I found.
First, I found no evidence that Seinfeld was pressured to change his name or the name of the show. I assume you have some evidence for this notion — but I could not find any.
Second, I did not find any evidence that “NBC executives” as a whole thought his show was “too Jewish.” There was perhaps one executive out of about twenty asked who expressed this opinion — Brandon Tartikoff, himself a Jewish New Yorker, complained that the show was “too New York, too Jewish” — but he was obviously over-ruled by the rest of NBC when the pilot later went on the air. Testing after the pilot revealed that Tartikoff was wrong; the show was equally popular (or unpopular at first) with diverse audiences.
In a recent article (“The Research Memo That Almost Killed Seinfeld”), Stephen Battaglio writes:
Notice that none of the results Battaglio quotes have anything to do with the show being “too Jewish.”
Notice also that there is nothing in the article about Seinfeld being asked (never mind “pressured”) to use a non-Jewish name.
Finally, and this is almost amusing: I did find some people complaining about the show, certainly, but not that it was “too Jewish” — their complaint was that it was not properly Jewish at all! To wit:
Excerpt is from a 1998 article by Rebecca Segall and Peter Ephross (Jewish Telegraphic Agency).
CDWard
Israel has been taking the Palestinian’s land, water, homes, olive groves, and lives ever since it began. The Palestinians have every right to fight back.