My fledgling driver and I arrived at the DMV half an hour early this morning. This was to be the big day, the day she’d take her driving test and exchange her learner’s permit for a solo license. We live in the boonies, so we’d left early to make sure we wouldn’t miss our DMV appointment if the rush hour traffic hadn’t subsided in town.
Not wanting to offend the DMV staff by arriving in the building more than 15 minutes early (the printout had cautioned against this), we waited by the car when we got there, checking out the driving course behind the DMV building. As we looked on, a licensee wannabe arrived at the course, and the driving tester put her through her paces.
Did you know parallel parking is no longer on the test? It isn’t, at least in Florida. The person we watched take the test had to pull into a diagonal parking space marked by two cones port and starboard, then back out and continue the test. She pulled in okay, but when backing out, she took out a cone, and just like that, she was done. Failed. Better luck next time.
“Oh my god!” my fledgling driver said. “I just know I’m going to hit a cone! Why did we have to bring this ridiculous boat of a car for the test? Why didn’t we borrow someone’s Mini?”
“You won’t hit a cone,” I said. “You’ve been pulling in and out of parking spaces in this car and even larger vehicles, surrounded by other people’s actual cars, for a year now, and you haven’t hit one yet. You’ll be fine!”
This went on for the prescribed 15 minutes — her panicking about the cones, me reassuring her that she wasn’t going to hit one. Then it was time to go in.
The DMV staff was exactly as welcoming and efficient as expected, and our fellow state ID and license seekers were a pleasant, patient lot; when those without appointments were informed they’d have a minimum two-hour wait, it hardly dented their good cheer. I have no idea why an armed deputy is on duty in the lobby.
We waited on the hard plastic seats for the tester to fetch my driver, who fretted away the time obsessing over cone collisions and reviewing last-minute tips from a DMV brochure. She begged me not to watch her take the test, and I promised not to peek.
Finally, the tester escorted her out. She was back in less than five minutes. Frowning. She didn’t even get a chance to run over a cone. Because she blew through a red light before they even reached the cone section!
The way she explained it, the error was more of a failure to play “Simon Says” correctly than a reflection on her driving skills. She and the tester were on the empty course, and whenever they’d reach a stop sign, the tester would say, “Turn right,” or “Turn left,” watching to make sure my kid looked both ways and used the turn signals properly.
When they arrived at the lone stop light on the course, which was red, the tester said, “Turn left,” and my kiddo did — right through the light. Flunkity flunk flunk. We’ll try again next week. Is it wrong that I’m secretly relieved?
Open thread.
SiubhanDuinne
Has it ever been? I learned to drive in Florida 40+ years ago and was neither taught to parallel park nor required to do so on the test.
Aw, I’m sorry about your kid. Flunking a driving test for whatever reason must feel excruciating. How long must she wait before she can take it again?
Soonergrunt
It took Soonerson four times to pass his driver’s test, which is done on surface streets here in OK. He’s a great driver.
Iowa Old Lady
Yes, it’s wrong. But your description of the DMV did make me laugh.
As I was out and about today, I didn’t hear anyone talking about the debacle in the House yesterday, so it’s apparently not on my fellow Iowans’ radar yet. They have been talking about the kids on the border.
ETA: I’ve never once parallel parked in all my 67 years.
beth
Oh the poor kid. I ran over a cone parallel parking when I took my driving test and had to actually pull forward, turn the car off and stand outside the car while the instructor picked up and re-set the cone. I still passed though. When my daughter took hers last year, she came in at the end and the tester went through about 9 things she’d done wrong. I was all set to suggest we go get some ice cream to drown our disappointment when the tester said that in spite of those things she had passed. I was like “are you fucking crazy lady?” but there was nothing I could do about it. We got the ice cream anyway as a celebration. I think sometimes it just depends on the mood of the tester. Better luck next time to your daughter.
Rob in CT
That sounds like a really wierd driving test.
Mine, taken up here in CT ~20 years ago, was hilariously easy, but did take place on actual roads with actual stop signs and street lights.
maurinsky
The first time I took the driving test, my mother’s car, a small sedan on which I had done all my practice driving, broke down, so I had to drive my father’s Ford F150, which is why there was also a second time I took the test. I went over a curb. We didn’t have a course, we drove on actual streets, and the streets surrounding the nearest DMV were about the width of a driveway with cars parked on both sides of the street. And I had to wait 3 months before I could test again!
Second test, I had to parallel park, K-turn, you name it, but that time I passed with a perfect score.
I’m still a really excellent parallel parker.
Eric U.
I can parallel park if I have to, but I have to concentrate. My car will parallel park itself, but I have never tested it.
Betty Cracker
@SiubhanDuinne: Parallel parking was definitely required when I took the test at the very same DMV. It was the part that worried me the most, even though I had actually been driving my own car for a full year before I got my solo license (my mom hated to drive and I love it, so she made me her chauffeur when I was in 9th grade, LOL!). I passed the first time. Poor kid is crushed, but she can try again as early as Monday. She really is a good driver — she just got mixed up. I think if she’d taken the test in actual traffic, she’d have passed.
Mandalay
O/T, some wonderful news:
Hank
Boy #1 is on the cusp of getting his learner’s permit. I wasn’t too concerned until yesterday when I saw him make a left turn out of the school driveway on his bike. He made it without a problem, but he had no idea there was a car coming at him from the left. He’d checked left then looked right waiting for a gap. He never looked left after the first glance. We had a bit of a chat about head-on-a-swivel when we were both at home. And now I’m nervous.
Trollhattan
Ah, the trials of da yout. Now that she’s unraveled the mystery that is the actual test she’ll pass next go, no prob. And then your local bluehairs can start watching out for that Eff One-Fiddy (or whatever truck it is you have).
Definitely had to parallel-park in Washington state and suspect they do here in Calif, but because my fair city has mostly rolled curbs, the ability to parallel park isn’t required save for crowded downtowny areas, which comprise a pretty small part of the city. As a result (my theory anyway) the skill quickly atrophies and it can 1) take long agonizing minutes for some folks to park even in a three-car size space 2) have folks banging into actual square curbs with forces that sometimes rupture their tire 3) result in old ladies bashing your parked car at very high speeds, like what happened to my spouse a couple months ago. (About eight-grand in damage.)
gene108
So Cracker Daughter joins the club of folks, who flunked their driving test the first time!
Welcome to the club!
*********************
In North Carolina, 25 years ago, we did not have to do parallel parking, we just had to do a 3-point turn on a two lane road and not run off the road into the shoulder-ditch-vegetation on the side of the road.
I taught myself to parallel park. I’m not good at it, but when I visit my brother in NYC, I am more than happy to spend 10 minutes or more wiggling my car into a small spot, about the size of my car, and don’t care what looks I get from the locals about “why can’t he parallel park”.
**************************************************
Truth is, if I had to use cones to guide me to parallel park or back up, I do not think I could do it. I’m too used to using actual cars as guide points of where I cannot stick my car because I’d hit something.
Cervantes
@Hank: Helmet?
J.
Poor kiddo. She was tricked! My 16-year-old would have been in tears. (She takes her road test in September.) Good luck next week!
And speaking of Coneheads, did you hear about the mandatory redistricting about to occur in your great state? It seems Florida Republicans “did, in fact, conspire to manipulate and influence the redistricting process,” and “went to great lengths to conceal from the public their plan and their participation in it.” SHOCKING.
SiubhanDuinne
@Iowa Old Lady:
I had to, once. It took three or four guys standing around telling me when to turn my wheel and signaling me when to stop or pull forward or something. I was scared to death and nearly in tears by the end of the ordeal.
Betty Cracker
@Hank: I won’t bullshit you: I’ve found the whole process utterly terrifying, and I’m not usually a chickenshit. Best of luck to you and the boy.
catclub
@Hank:
interesting. Check his hearing? Wearing earbuds? Usually on a bike you can be aware without turning your head.
prufrock
I flunked my first stab at the driving test in the late 80’s.
And I had to parallel park, at least in Pinellas County, FL. Though that wasn’t what flunked me (didn’t turn into the immediate closest lane when making a left. Oops.)
Belafon
Parallel parking is still required in Texas, though that wasn’t what failed my oldest. The first place he took the test was in Garland. He failed, because when he turned right onto Broadway after sitting at a top, a car pulled out of the parking lot next to the light and the tester knocked the oldest for pulling out in front of a car. Since, in Texas, you can take the test at any DMV (may work everywhere) we went to a town about 45 minutes away, walked in, took the test, and he passed.
The parallel parking changed sometime over the last 25 years: When I was getting my license in Texas, you didn’t have to pass parallel parking.
D58826
One more member of the ‘flunked the first time’ club here. Did better the second time.
raven
Ya’ll need to take to the motorcickle test. Hint, they don’t ride with you.
gene108
@beth:
I failed the first time for not adjusting my rear view mirror, when I got into the car. I think I drove the car there, so I did not think about it.
I did everything else technically right, but I was an awful driver and the instructor picked up on it and realized I was really not ready to drive on my own. The instructor just needed a reason to flunk me. Looking back, it was a good decision Like I said, was initially an awful driver and needed more time to get better.
Your kid may have done things technically wrong, but may still be a good driver, who understood what to do. I think most every experienced driver does stuff technically wrong (per the driving test), but are still competent drivers.
opiejeanne
They test on a closed course? My kids were tested on the roads, endangering Real People in Real Cars. I can’t remember if they had to parallel park, and that would have been on the DMV lot and not out in the Real World.
The youngest was out taking her driving test, after completing her written exam, and there were several Hispanic ladies who were terrified and focused on that business about double yellow lines, because there was a double yellow line they would have to cross if they turned left out of the parking lot with the instructor (or tester, or whatever they called them). I tried to explain the nuances of the double yellow line, that they were absolutely allowed to cross a single set of double yellow lines (not a double set of double yellow lines), which was lost on them because of the language barrier, but then I remembered that the instructor is not allowed to ask you to do anything illegal as part of the test. They can’t test you by telling you to turn left on a red light or a U-turn where one is not allowed. That helped a little, and they understood that.
catclub
@Mandalay: The slate article was all good until they said that a GOP rep was in a gerrymandered district that he could never lose. Actually, the GOP reps will be in much closer (57-43) districts than the Democrats (80-20). The problem is that there will be many fewer Democratic 80-20 districts than GOP 57-43 districts. The other problem is that the Democrats representing those 80-20 districts do not speak up enough and say that those districts should be changed to reduce their re-election chances. Funny that.
KG
Mid-90s Southern California the parallel parking thing was dependent on where you were. In north OC, it wasn’t part of it because nobody parallel parks around there. Hardest thing I had was a three point turn and they test on the roads here. I actually passed first try even when I apparently did a California roll at a stop sign.
Bummer for the kid, though. Not passing a big test is never fun (had it with te bar exam first time out)… But luckily you can take it again
Trollhattan
@catclub:
There’s considerable evidence we have the ability to block out reality at really inconventient times, such as head-checking both directions before entering a one-way street and then colliding with the car heading the wrong way. We see it but the brain rejects its very existance.
Ever since our toddler walks around the block I’ve been coaxing my kid to “watch out for backup lights on cars in the driveway” and the like. Riding bikes on the street adds “watch out for opening car doors, watch for cars blowing through the stop sign, assume nobody knows what ‘yield’ means” but with all my advice I haven’t a clue how much is received and processed. The biggest hurdle was getting her riding confidence to a point where she could stop strangling the handlebars and start observing her surroundings. The car will be a big ol’ control+alt-delete on all that.
Paul in KY
@SiubhanDuinne: Back in the Devonian (circa 1976) in KY, parallel parking was done & a State Trooper gave the test on city streets.
I suck at parallel parking, but I rose to the occasion that fateful day & executed a good one. Cool under fire is the Paul in KY
Felinious Wench
Betty, please tell Conehead-ette I did the EXACT same thing on my first test. When the tester tells you what you just did, it’s awful. You want to smack yourself in the forehead. And telling your friends you didn’t pass is even more fun. But, I was terribly nervous and I made a mistake.
25 years later. I have never accidentally taken a left turn on a red light. I’ve taken out fences, but I have never taken an illegal left turn on a stoplight, by God.
Big hug to her.
pamelabrown53
Hah! Betty Crocker. You wrote: “Did you know parallel parking is not on the test”. That’s because it’s not really a driving test but a method of voter suppression. Who give’s a flying fuck if your daughter can drive? It’s more important that she can’t vote.
Bob In Portland
The war goes on.
There’s this.
raven
I’ve posted this before but this is my pop teaching drivers ed in about 56.
Paul in KY
Betty, I wonder if she had looked to the left and then turned (cause you can turn right on red) if he would have flunked her?
Cervantes
@opiejeanne: That was nice of you.
Suzanne
Mine was on real roads, and I almost failed because the instructor took me on the freeway in an area I didn’t know and I missed the exit. I didn’t have to parallel park, just to do a 3-point turn.
Suzanne
Mine was on real roads, and I almost failed because the instructor took me on the freeway in an area I didn’t know and I missed the exit. I didn’t have to parallel park, just to do a 3-point turn.
Roger Moore
@opiejeanne:
When I was taking the test, there was one illegal thing that they would try to get you to do: to start driving before they put their seatbelt on. They would hop in and tell you to start driving. If you didn’t check and tell them you couldn’t start until they buckled up, it was an instant fail.
Waynski
My sister failed twice before she passed and then got in an accident (her fault, I was in the car) about two months after she finally got her license. The guy wasn’t hurt at all, but he sued anyway (his father was an insurance agent). Hope he enjoyed the settlement. He died of cancer about ten years later.
Trollhattan
@Bob In Portland: Hodor!
SatanicPanic
I don’t want my son to learn how to drive. We might move to Japan before then just so he doesn’t.
donnah
I had to know parallel parking in Ohio when I got my license back in the years just after the invention of the wheel. But it served me well, as my husband and I lived in a house with no driveway or garage. I could parallel park a barge with one hand tied behind my back.
My sons had the maneuverability version, though. Two of them had to take the test twice, the other got his first try. Tell your daughter good luck!
pacem appellant
In CA, at least in the 90s, we tested on the actual roads and highways. Running a red light would have been nigh impossible due to the presence of on-coming traffic. This obstacle course is a trap. A real road test and your offspring would have been fine.
Pogonip
She’ll pass next time. I passed the first time. Try not to parallel park because I can’t wear contacts and so when I look out of the sides of my glasses everything’s fuzzy.
They have an armed guard because it’s America and many people are scared of everything.
Trollhattan
@Pogonip:
Stand your DMV.
Bob In Portland
And this:
...now I try to be amused
The Massachusetts RMV officer who did my road test in 1976 wore the same uniform as a state trooper, with a pistol. I think he wasn’t actually a state trooper.
jeffreyw
Mrs J bought a new car with assisted parallel parking and the dealer guy was all eager to show us how it worked. The robot driver got flustered when it hit a curb and just gave up. The dealer rep got out and looked at the curb for a minute and then got back in and pulled away and parked in a diagonal slot in front of the showroom. We told him it was OK, we weren’t much into parallel parking anyway.
Paul in KY
@Paul in KY: Betty, just saw that she was turning LEFT & did that. Please ignore previous comment.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Fascinating use of “inasmuch as … are attributable” to denote complete speculation.
Fascinating, also, how you’re favorably quoting Mike Bociurkiw, whom you were slandering as an anti-Semite last week. That was in and of itself a very interesting post. Questioning the truth of the CIA’s claims in re anything is, apparently, the sign of clear thinking. Questioning the truth of the DOJ’s claims, on the other hand, means you’re irredeemably anti-Semitic. I can’t keep the branches of the evil conspiring US gov’t straight any more.
schrodinger's cat
I too failed my driving test the first time I took it. The test involved driving on actual roads with real traffic in January in Maine, and it was actually snowing when I took the test. I also had to parallel park.
I did everything correctly except while turning into the DMV parking lot, I was a wee bit faster than I should have been and the car skid a little. Boom, the instructor said, FAIL. Passed the next time I took it.
MattF
The driving test in Maryland had a trick up its sleeve: there was a stop sign right at the exit of the test route. Not nice. FWIW, it didn’t matter for me because I failed parallel parking the first time. I think I’ve parallel parked exactly twice in the ensuing forty years.
catclub
@Gin & Tonic: One problem with those claims is that crash investigators have been kept away from the site for weeks, so the wreckage could have been tampered with. A lot.
So even if these reports are accurate, the botching of security at the site kills their impact.
Felinious Wench
@Gin & Tonic: Hodor!
I’m convinced Bob has stock in Reynolds Consumer Products and is just trying to drive up the price of tin foil.
Roger Moore
@Gin & Tonic:
Especially because there is a plausible, even obvious, explanation for why the wreckage of a plane that’s sitting in the middle of a war zone might have holes that look like they came from shell fragments or machinegun fire. Especially when the people accused of shooting it down have been in charge of securing the area.
Bob In Portland
And this:
mack
Too late for the formidable Ms. Cracker, but I have to tell you, when my daughter was of age, we sent through a driving school, and when she was finished, they gave her an envelope to present at the DMV and no test required. She was in/out in 10 minutes. Plus, the school put the fear of fsm in her about drunk driving/texting/speeding, etc. It was such a pleasant experience as a parent, we did the same thing last month for our son. In addition, I just put my 16 yr old son on our insurance, premiums went up 300 dollars a year. Thought that was reasonable.
Pogonip
@Bob In Portland: Hodor!
Hank
@Cervantes: yes. And to be clear he had time or I would have been raising a ruckus.
schrodinger's cat
Putin puppet is back after his summer vacation in Crimea!
Villago Delenda Est
This is Florida, Betty. You know that. An ammosexual state. No telling when some retired police captain is going to blow someone away for texting within 50 yards of him, standing his ground, etc.
Seanly
I got my first DL in Chapel Hill NC. The test was on open roads, but the area was on the outskirts of town & pretty empty of traffic. I failed my test the first time – can’t remember why exactly, but I was pretty nervous. I still hadn’t mastered the clutch. The DMV employee wasn’t the biggest help either.
During my second test I was doing a little better. When we got back to the building, the guy asked me to circle the parking lot one more time. As I’m sitting on a slight incline, a truck pulls right up on my bumper. I pulled off a perfect start on the incline (my mom taught me that you should be doing the brake-to-gas-ease-off-the-clutch quick enough that the car doesn’t roll back at all). When we parked he said he was thinking about flunking me, but when I did the rolling start well with traffic behind me. Also, at that time in NC, having to take the test for a 3rd time meant redoing the written or some other PITA. He said I should practise more.
My lessons learned was not to teach anyone to drive while also trying to teach them to master a standard transmission. Learn to drive on an automatic then learn about operating the clutch.
danah gaz
I nearly aced mine. I was marked down for a “California stop” – something I still do habitually.
I’ve only ever had one ticket – for speeding. I don’t think I’m ever not speeding. I drive like Harvey Keitel’s character in Pulp Fiction.
khead
My older sister parallel parked a ’68 Caddy for her test (in ’75) in WV. No idea how she did it. Dad once used that car to haul 8 kids on my grade school basketball team to a game.
Mandalay
@catclub:
Indeed; reaping the benefits of gerrymandering is not just a Republican thing. But the scathing ruling tells politicians that you can’t necessarily just make this shit up as you go along and expect to get away with it any more. As a practical matter, I’m not sure it will actually affect the result of any of the 2014 races in Florida, but it is a big step in the right direction.
Of course in the long term we need to explicitly exclude politicians from the process of drawing political boundaries. The current system makes as much sense as putting junkies in charge of the controlled drugs cabinet.
Villago Delenda Est
@schrodinger’s cat: Yes, the Putin lickspittle is back, drooling jizz all over the blog.
Trollhattan
@SatanicPanic:
May I suggest Germany?
Trollhattan
@khead:
My driving instructor used an Olds Delta 88. Park that damn aircraft carrier and you can go forth and park anything.
Belafon
@gene108:
My dad said that no one would take him to take his driving test, so he drove by himself.
Roger Moore
@Seanly:
You have that backward. Master the clutch, then learn the finer points of driving.
Villago Delenda Est
@Trollhattan: In Germany, driving is most certainly a privilege that is earned, and the driver’s testing regimen is no multiple guess joke. They want verified competent drivers in the driver’s seats of those BMWs and Mercedes moving at near-relativistic speeds on the Autobahnen.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: So your position *is* in fact that the CIA planned the downing of a fully-occupied civilian airliner. Good to know.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: So your position *is* in fact that the CIA planned the downing of a fully-occupied civilian airliner. Good to know.
japa21
My first driving test was 50 years ago, or will be 50 years in two months. Definitely had to do parallel parking which scared the heck out of me. Being blind in one eye I have no depth perception. And this was using cones. Had to park between two cars on a street.
I’m in the process and all of a sudden the tester says “Stop!” I had hooked bumpers with the car I was to drive behind. The tester had to have me move forward and get out to see if I had done any damage to the other car. He had me finish the parking (there was no damage) and then said, let’s go back to the station.
I knew I had failed big time. He was quiet the whole way back. As we pulled into the testing station he turned to me and said, “That was the last thing on the test. If there had been even the slightest scratch, I would have had to fail you. However, very few people parallel park anymore, so I’ll let it go. You’ve passed.”
Bob In Portland
Another war built on lies:
Belafon
@Bob In Portland: I’m pretty sure we could start a fundraiser to get you moved to Russia. Or maybe you could go work for the NSA for a while.
Calouste
@Betty @top:
You’re in Florida.
Dexter
Took mine in Lexington, KY. DMV closest to the University of Kentucky campus is in the downtown and the parking lot is on a fifth or sixth floor of a parking garage. To start the test, you have to come out of the garage via a narrow circular ramp. After hearing several of my fellow international grad students’ experience with the ramp, I took a look at it and then went to a driving school. Passed on the first attempt and yes, I had to do parallel parking on a side street in between two cars.
dmsilev
Obama is going to be making a statement about something in the next few minutes. Presumably about the border issues and the failure of the House clown caucus to do anything meaningful about it.
Redshift
I failed my driving test the first time. The old car I was driving was having trouble with stalling at the time, so I had to give it a little gas when it was idling to keep it going. Apparently braking with one foot and having the other on the accelerator is a no-no. I was practically in tears, but I passed easily the next time.
Betty Cracker
@Seanly: Once she finally gets a license, the kid will get my mom’s old manual transmission Jeep, and I originally taught her to drive using that Jeep as well as my stick shift Beetle (since traded in for an automatic). After she mastered the clutch, it was easy to teach her to drive an automatic, but the reverse is NOT true, as I found when I had to teach my sister to drive a manual.
MattF
@japa21: As it happens, I’ve had eye surgery and driver’s license renewal almost simultaneously– so I’ve been paying close attention to the vision requirements for a license. Here in Maryland, you can’t get a license with monocular vision, so your story’s of some interest to me. And… for the record, I have OK visual acuity in one eye, but not so good in the other, but I’m still legal.
Dog On Porch
I wonder what percentage of wannabes blow through that red light? My guess is a lot. I probably would have obeyed the tester, too (and likewise resented it). In fact, I think it goes a long way to explain the armed guard in the lobby. Your daughter’s best revenge will be to broadcast the sneaky trick to everyone she knows.
Why California has armed guards in their lobbies: My worst experience with Ca.’s DMV occurred years ago, when my lapsed registration stickers resulted in my truck being towed. It needed to be properly registered in order to to spring it from storage, but the DMV’s computer incorrectly indicated I owed money to the county from unpaid parking tickets. Long story short: although the private contractors that collected parking fines told me over the phone that I had indeed paid in full, they refused to contact the DMV to that effect (and were unable-or-unwilling to instantaneously effect the info in their system). The DMV in turn refused to contact them with a simple phone call to confirm I’d paid up, and so I was forced to travel 30-some miles to the Office of the Incompetents, simply to get their official print-out confirming I was squared with the county. It was a 60 mile round trip, and I was not a happy camper.
The moral of the story: always keep your registration updated, and never bring a gun with you when dealing with the DMV. Then again, you live in Florida. Maybe your daughter should do just that, and stand her ground if another tester tries to trick her.
dmsilev
@dmsilev:
I was close. It’s about the economy and the failure of the House clown caucus to do anything meaningful about it.
pat
We visited friends in Brussels where there is virtually no off-street parking in their residential area. They could whip that car into any parallel parking spot in about 3 seconds.
I flunked my first driving test by not yeilding to a pedestrian in a crosswalk. We had to parallel park, but a failure would not take off enough points to fail the test.
Rosalita
I took my driver’s test in Bunnell, FL. So chosen because the DMV consisted of a portable amongst the Palmetto scrub. Haven’t heard of Bunnell? Well there you go. No waiting. Passed.
Moved to CA and failed their written test twice before the clerk took pity on me and gave me a pass on the third. I blew it on where can you carry a bottle of liquor in the car (the trunk!)
Baton Rouge, now that was a treat. No appointments. Waited HOURS for a 5-minute window visit to exchange paper and get a local tag. And in Louisiana you can carry liquor in your cup holder after you go through the drive-thru daiquiri joint.
khead
@Trollhattan:
Heh. By the time it was my turn to take the test in ’85 the Caddy had turned into a pumpkin – we had a VERY ugly orange Caprice Classic.
SatanicPanic
@Trollhattan: that’s scarier! I want him somewhere that no one drives.
Paul in KY
@danah gaz: I have had 19 speeding tickets in 38 years of driving. They are spread out over 6 states & 2 AFB bases.
schrodinger's cat
I did not drive in Mumbai during my visit this May, I may try the next time. First, the traffic is chaotic, second driving on the wrong side of the road shifting gears with the left hand while dodging traffic and sometimes a cow was more excitement than I had the stomach for.
Villago Delenda Est
@Betty Cracker: Solid, solid plan. Learning to drive on a manual is a great idea, because while it’s a breeze to adapt to an automatic (well, except for the part where I’m constantly trying to press the non-existent clutch as I hear the revs change in the engine) it’s difficult to learn a manual when you’re used to an automatic, as I discovered when I first tried a manual after learning to drive on an automatic. However, once I did learn to drive a manual, my first new car had a manual…five on the floor Trans Am. Wouldn’t have it any other way for a sports or muscle car.
SatanicPanic
The driver test in Japan was ridiculous, so I just never drove there.
Schlemizel
My drivers test was in a large, open field that had roads built on it. I did OK on the test and thought I would pass. The officer did a short debrief when we finished & I could see by his score sheet I had failed which angered & confused me. He took points off because I did not end a RH turn in the RH lane (what would normally be the parking lane in urban driving) and I thought that was sort of cheezy bit OK. But the reason he failed me is that I failed to slow down and look for traffic at every intersection. I questioned by saying I could see very clearly there was no traffic. He said “Well, you should pretend there were buildings & cars.” So I said “Well then you could pretend I slowed down.” YEah that didn’t help my score either. I assume they like to flunk first timers to take some of the over confidence away from them but its all BS
Villago Delenda Est
@Rosalita: Louisiana used to have perfectly legal “to go” drive up windows at liquor stores.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: So your position is that the CIA doesn’t lie and we should trust it? That the US would never get us involved in a war based on lies?
I can shove words into your mouth as well as you shove them into mine.
There are 30mm bullet holes in the fuselage of the downed airliner. Machine guns on the ground can’t reach 30k feet. We know that the rebels don’t have airplanes. We have eyewitness reports of a Ukrainian fighter jet in the vicinity moments before the crash.
We have Russian radar showing that fighter in the area.
Cervantes
@SatanicPanic: Togo. Or maybe Somalia.
raven
STOP ENGAGING THIS [email protected]
Bob In Portland
@Belafon: August 1. Belafon still has not noticed he has been propagandized into supporting a war against Russia. Duly noted, Belafon.
Trollhattan
@khead:
Awww, schweet!
Turned out I needed the mad Delta 88 skilz because the old man bought a used LaSabre wagon that I swear encompassed two zip codes. The only saving grace was the fact the back window coincided with the end of the car, so one didn’t have to accommodate a not-visible trunk when backing up. Today, perhaps only Suburban drivers have a similar navigation challenge, although since they sit about ten feet off the ground they have a better angle of vision than classic American sleds (the poor sod behind them in traffic, not so much).
schrodinger's cat
@Villago Delenda Est: Wow that’s different than Puritan Central. Where I live no grocery store other than Whole Food even carries liquor, not even beer or wine.
Mnemosyne
I passed my driving test the first time, but then managed to lock bumpers with the car next to me in the parking lot as I was leaving after the test. (It actually wasn’t my fault — the car wasn’t there when I first parked, and they parked at practically a 45-degree angle to me, which made it really hard to pull out.)
I didn’t want to go back inside the DMV and say I’d had an accident 10 minutes after getting my license, so I just finished pulling out and went home.
ETA: Also, I am a world-champion parallel parker. It just always came easily to me. Driving a stick, not so much.
opiejeanne
@khead: I drove my dad’s 1965 Ford Custom, a huge beast of a car, and passed the parallel parking with ease because they had the cones so far apart that you could have parked a box truck in the space and had room left over. That was 1966 in Southern California, at the Pasadena DMV.
I have since mastered a different form of parallel parking that would have given my instructor fits when I was in HS: I don’t back in. I have figured out how to do it by going in nose first, and I usually use that method but it takes a little more room than the standard method, which I hadn’t used for years but pulled off perfectly about a month ago (much to my surprise).
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland: Yeah, like Russian radar is perfectly reliable at all times. Just ask Mattias Rust!
Cervantes
@Bob In Portland:
Assuming both statements are true, there is at least one possible (and obvious) resolution you seem to be ignoring.
Trollhattan
@raven:
The a$$hole’s engaged? We should all pitch in for a gift–I have a few thoughts….
Talentless Hack
In Ohio in the late 1970s, we had this thing called the “maneuverability test,” which replaced the parallel parking part of the driving test. Sure enough, I blew it the first time out. Mom and I went out to the high school parking lot with some makeshift markers that I made from some scrap lumber, and ran the course that was marked there over and over and over. The next time I ran it for real, I nailed the hell out of it like I’ve been doing it for years. In a 1978 Impala station wagon. Not the biggest boat Detroit ever built, but not exactly a compact, either.
shelley
Oh, the poor kid. Only good thing is she’ll ace it next time.
********
Almost failed my first too. Got thru all the exam points without a hitch (including the parallel parking) and drove thru what I assumed was the exit from the exam course. The examiner told me I’d just pulled into the wrong lane of a one lane road. But he gave me the benefit of the doubt and passed me.
Villago Delenda Est
@raven: Cats need to play with the laser. Can’t resist swatting this turd around.
opiejeanne
@Belafon: Oh, the guy who tested me squinted at me and asked me how I got to the DMV, and all three of my kids were asked the same question when it was their turn(s). It was California, I think it was part of the exam.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland: The projection! It’s blinding me!
SatanicPanic
@Cervantes: Mmm, not really solving my issue
raven
@Villago Delenda Est: :)
Villago Delenda Est
@Trollhattan: Probably one of those spamvertised Russian brides things.
Botsplainer
Two of three Botsplainer spawn destroyed cars. My favorite moment was when middle daughter tore out of the house in a huff, leapt into car, roared into reverse, careened across the parking pad and slammed into her mother’s Honda.
Good times.
Trollhattan
@schrodinger’s cat:
While my buddy was engaged in his Texas residence experiment, they changed the open container law: it went from completely legal to the driver could not be holding an open beer (or whatever). Resulted in a reduction of solo driving (“hey, hold this”) and long discussions of whether a dog can technically hold an open beer.
Cervantes
@SatanicPanic: Picky, picky, picky.
srv
As someone was struggling with the parallel spot with another DMV trooper, mine told me to just go on. As I passed, the car got failed and pulled out, so I pulled out a full lane. Trooper said to stop “let’s go ahead and try”
So I’m just past the parallel spot but I’m 12 feet out and say “from here?” and he says “yes.”
Fucker. Still passed me, but who the fuck practices parallel parking from two lanes out?
schrodinger's cat
How long before the intellectual heirs of the know-nothings shift their gaze to legal immigration?
Rosalita
@Villago Delenda Est:
Actually so did Florida, back in my HS days…always handed over the cold ones to the unruly teenagers
Villago Delenda Est
@Cervantes: Seriously.
The stupid. It BURNS.
Bob In Portland
@raven: Because if you guys all ignore me the war won’t happen (until it does) and then you can be surprised and shocked that the US lied you into another war.
Explain to me. Posting articles from The Nation is being an asshole? Or just disagreeing with Juicers’ intake of US propaganda is rude for polite company? Yes, mentioning that there are bullet holes in the fuselage of the downed airliner most certainly is rude because it again points to the US trying to provoke a war, doesn’t it? And decorum is what BJ strives for.
Oh, poor Raven. So sorry that pointing out that the US is pushing for another war in order to increase profits for energy companies is just too much for your mind to comprehend.
++++
“All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.”
SatanicPanic
@Cervantes: Well, since I already had my mind made up on a destination I’m not really hunting around for ideas, but thanks, I guess.
Villago Delenda Est
@schrodinger’s cat: If they do shift their gaze to legal immigration, it will land solidly on those with melanin enhancement, just as it does with those who are undocumented. Amazingly, they no longer get upset about the Irish, who are now for all practical purposes as white as anyone with ancestry from Great Britain.
Seanly
@Betty Cracker:
My mom tried teaching me on the roads how to both drive & operate a clutch. Maybe if we had gone to a parking lot & let me master the clutch first I would’ve had an easier time of it.
schrodinger's cat
Isn’t it funny that godless liberal states like Mass and NY have more restrictions on alcohol sale than the bible thumping ones? What gives? What is the story behind this?
schrodinger's cat
@Villago Delenda Est: Apparently there is a sizable number of undocumented Irish immigrants in NYC.
Cervantes
@schrodinger’s cat: What restrictions on the sale of alcohol do you think the state of Massachusetts imposes?
SatanicPanic
@schrodinger’s cat: Weren’t some early feminists involved in the temperance movement? Husbands were out drinking so they wanted to ban alcohol.
schrodinger's cat
@Villago Delenda Est: Groups like FAIR (Cons love Orwell, don’t they) want to restrict legal immigration too. They want to do away with the diversity lottery and the family reunification GCs.
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
I’d guess that East Asians will also get the short end of the stick. We are apparently now getting more immigrants from Asia than from Latin America.
Bob In Portland
@Cervantes: There are a myriad of explanations but most don’t conform to the facts. It could be a stealth fighter accompanying the Ukrainian jet that did the shooting, but why? Or it could be a Russian jet that hasn’t been reported to have been in the area for the almost three weeks since the downing, because if it was a Russian jet I don’t think Obama and the State Dept would still be holding back its radar and satellite images. Do you?
Or it could be the Ukie jet fighter. And if it’s the Ukie jet fighter, then what? What’s your next step?
shelley
Does the dog have to give it back?
catclub
@Cervantes: I pointed that out. Insecure crash site. Insurgents with machine guns. What could go right?
schrodinger's cat
@Cervantes: I have seen no hard liquor sold in grocery stores either MA or in NY. Someone on BJ informed me that the number of liquor licenses per town is capped that’s why many grocery stores don’t sell either beer or wine. NY has restrictions on when the liquor stores can be open and so on.
Roger Moore
@schrodinger’s cat:
Depends on the Bible thumping state. Several of the big Bible thumping states still have dry counties, which seems like the strictest restriction on alcohol sales you’re likely to encounter.
Trollhattan
@shelley:
If it’s a Lone Star or Bud Lite, he’ll demand the human take it offa his paws.
Julie
This exact same thing happened to me at 16 — except my guy yelled and me and threatened to give me a ticket. There were tears. The same tester flunked a friend of mine a few months later before she’d even turned the car on- for not being able to immediately find the hazard lights in the car she’d borrowed from an aunt that morning and had never driven before. This guy passed all the boys in our class without any “trick” questions, so go figure.
schrodinger's cat
@Roger Moore: I am guessing laws governing the sale of alcohol in Utah must be pretty strict too.
Bill
First time I took my drivers test, we swapped the family station wagon for a subcompact that my cousin owned. They figured it would make it easier. Trying to drive an unfamiliar car caused me to fail utterly.
When I got my second chance, I demanded the station wagon, and aced it easily.
Forget the Mini.
cckids
@mack:
Holy shit, that is BEYOND reasonable. Here in S. NV, when we put our (car-less) 16-year old son on our insurance, it went up $225 A MONTH. Yes, you read that right.
Our monthly car insurance here is roughly equal to what my sister (same age & gender kids) pays for 4 months in Nebraska.
Edit to add: and no-one has any accidents, tickets, nothing. We drive old, paid-for cars (and the son doesn’t even have access to a car, he lives 400+ miles away, so they kindly give us a $60 discount a month.)
There are reasons I spit when I hear an insurance company’s name.
Cervantes
@schrodinger’s cat:
My question was about what restrictions the state imposes. Here is something relevant from the state:
Gus
Um, you live in Florida, right?
japa21
@MattF: Pretty much the same here in Illinois. But if I can detect light on the blind side (barely, but I can) they let it go.
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: Beyond your ad hominem you’ve got nothing. Don’t worry about the government. Everything is under control. You don’t have to think about it. You may remain on autopilot.
In some ways it’s fascinating to watch a group of intellectuals march themselves to propaganda so easily, especially after the history we’ve lived through. I’ve pointed over and over about all the wars and interventions our country has been lied into. I presume that most of you no longer believe the trash that Judith Miller wrote, but you have no problems with Herzenhorn’s daily State Dept. transcriptions.
smintheus
I returned to the US after a decade abroad, and had to take a road test in Maryland in my 30s. The jerk flunked me within 5 seconds … because when pulling out of my space in the middle of a parking lot I didn’t use a directional. Yes, I told him he was an @s*h*le.
Villago Delenda Est
@shelley: A fellow officer in my unit at Ft. Lewis in the late 80’s had this bad habit of opening a can of beer while driving. This was at the time very much unlawful in Washington state. He was a graduate of The Citadel in SC, though, which might explain why he had no problems with doing it…it seemed to me that the parts of the South that were wet were OK with drinking and driving, since it was not considered bad form to do so, which even in the late 70’s early 80’s was unheard of in the PNW. The idea of a “to go” cup from a liquor store was just totally out of the question…in part due to the fact that you could only buy hard liquor from state stores in WA and OR, but even if liquor could be purchased from a privately owned store, a “to go” cup would have been unthinkable.
MADD got busy on things like that in the 80’s, along with raising the drinking age everywhere to 21. Wazoo (hiyas Yatsuno!) was infamous for having students drive across the border to Moscow to take advantage of Idaho’s drinking age at 18.
Dog On Porch
@Schlemizel: “I questioned by saying I could see very clearly there was no traffic. He said “Well, you should pretend there were buildings & cars.” So I said “Well then you could pretend I slowed down.”
That’s a lot like the conversation went when John first met Yoko. She wanted him to fork over some cash before driving an imaginary nail into an imaginary canvas. John being John, he asked if he could pay in imaginary money.
cckids
@khead:
I took & passed (on the 2nd try) my test, including parallel parking, in a 1970-something Buick LeSabre. The front end of that car was approximately the size of my king-size bed.
danah gaz
@Paul in KY: *high five*
Trollhattan
@cckids:
Holy mother of god! Just how badly does the boy need to drive? It would be cheaper to bribe him out of the very idea.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland: Ad hominem, my ass. You’re being mocked, you dumbshit. You can’t tell the difference. Everything you post is being reflected right back at you.
schrodinger's cat
@Cervantes: I haven’t studied the matter academically, just was going by what booze one can buy in a grocery store. My brief survey is as follows:
Maine : pretty much everything
MA: Nothing in most grocery stores
VA: wine and beer
MD: wine and beer
NY: beer.
Roger Moore
@schrodinger’s cat:
In some ways yes, in other ways no. There are no alcohol sales on Sunday, but grocery stores can get a license to sell 3.2 beer. IIRC, they maintain a strict distinction between bars and restaurants that sell alcohol, with restaurants being required to sell at least some food to anyone who buys alcohol. When I went to a brewpub in Moab, the place had to be legally divided into three entities, a bar, a restaurant, and a liquor store with different rules applying to each.
Villago Delenda Est
@Roger Moore: Asians all fall into the “melanin enhanced” range. My theory: epicanthic folds are a sign of a surplus of melanin. Do not want!
/teatard
Cervantes
@schrodinger’s cat: That’s fine, but what you see around you may not be a reliable guide to state policy.
Iowa Old Lady
@SatanicPanic: The PBS mini-series on Prohibition said that feminists and drys were allies in the fight to ban alcohol.
cmorenc
Back in the stone ages of 1965 when I was a 16yo taking my driver’s test in a small town in North Carolina, I recall that parallel parking was part of the driving field test. One thing that seems to have not changed in the intervening decades is that state DMVs seem to look for people whose natural demeanor is to be stony-faced to conduct driver’s tests, which actually makes sense given their daily repetitive exposure to the risks of being a passenger in other people’s cars driven by wet-behind-the-ears inexperienced, nervous 16 year olds, as well as older adults whose driving priviliges have been suspended for being caught exceeding some threshold of dangerous or incompetent driving, and are trying to get their license back.
Trollhattan
@Roger Moore:
Then there are the private “clubs” for which one can buy a one-night membership. Utah seems able to take everything to a completely other level of weird.
Villago Delenda Est
@schrodinger’s cat: OR is wine and beer, but the beverage lobby is pushing for hard liquor sales in supermarkets, much to the distress of the liquor store owners (who are no longer franchisees of the state, but still face a number of restrictions) and some craft hard liquor producers, who see it as an attempt by the big national brands to squash them dead.
Trollhattan
@Iowa Old Lady: And the KKK–can’t forget them!
WereBear
My driving test was in Florida, and I was worried about the parallel parking, but aced it. What really threw me was out on one of those swamp highways, with only the road, no shoulders, and six foot deep drainage ditches on each side.
And a turtle. In my lane. With a semi coming.
So, I ran over the turtle. Ba-dump. Ba-dump.
I felt awful. But in the rearview, I could see he’d stuck his head and feet back out and was going across the lane again.
Instructor must have been holding his breath, because he said I’d done the right thing in this squeaky voice.
And I passed.
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: Apparently, US radar and satellite photos aren’t reliable at all, because the US still hasn’t released it. Trust us. We tell you the truth.
Project that, Villago, wherever you want. Maybe you can project it next to the yellowcake and the aluminum pipes and the place where Curveball lives, although it must be getting kind of cramped there.
schrodinger's cat
@Trollhattan: Word. You should take a look at Mormon fashion bloggers and their “modest” clothing.
cmorenc
@Roger Moore: @schrodinger’s cat:
Regarding Utah alcoholic beverage laws, you can get beer with alcohol % over 3.2 in state liquor stores, but only 3.2 beer in grocery stores. I had an extended stay of seven weeks in Salt Lake City back in spring 2012 with my older daughter, and there was a nearby Smith’s grocery store in a small shopping center, and a state liquor store on the lower level thereof. You could buy the same brands of e.g. Wasatch brewery lager and ale in the grocery store @3.2 as you could in the state liquor store a flight of stairs underneath @6%.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland: The fascist Ukrainians have offered to show all their flight logs and account for all their aircraft on the day in question, but I suppose by now they’ve had more than enough time to falsify everything in a massive cover up of their obvious perfidy.
Funny how you never consider, even for a nanosecond, that the brave anti-fascists might, just might, have engaged in the same sort of thing, isn’t it? Oh, no, they’re all as pure as the driven snow right in the plume footprint of a Chinese coal fueled power plant.
No one here has expressed blind faith in official US pronouncements, but rather pointed skepticism of Russian pronouncements, which you accept at face value every fucking time.
You make Kay Adams look positively cynical by comparison.
Roger Moore
@Trollhattan:
Private clubs with very short memberships are a reasonably common work-around in places that have made the mistake of making the distinction between a bar and a private club. I think people aren’t entirely unhappy with the idea, since it at least encourages people who are drinking to stay in one place.
cckids
@Trollhattan: He’s in college now, and, at least here in NV, it is immaterial that he doesn’t have a car. As long as he has a license, he is on the insurance. Which is why he had only a learner’s permit from age 15 1/2 to almost 18 – the insurance bomb doesn’t kick in until he is licensed.
So, yeah. Our car insurance bill could easily be a car payment.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Does Russia bear any responsibility for the state of war which exists in the Donbass?
schrodinger's cat
@cmorenc: Husband kitteh managed to elicit a strong reaction from the stone faced individual administering his test. When husband kitteh took his test he did not wait for the oncoming traffic while making a left turn at a light, apparently the DMV guy screamed, what are you doing, are you trying to get both of us killed? For good measure, on the way back to the DMV husband kitteh managed to stall the car a couple of times too.
Bob In Portland
@catclub: Which doesn’t explain the absence of signs of a missile attack, does it?
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
Dude can’t even make up his mind if the Ukrainian separatists are Russian proxies or not. Whenever he talks about what they’re doing, he presents them as being just a bunch of ethnic Russians fighting for their rights, but whenever there’s a chance that the US might do something, he says we’re risking war with Russia by getting involved.
schrodinger's cat
@Gin & Tonic: Mother Russia is never wrong she can only be wronged, CIA scum.
/end BiP impersonation
How did I do?
SatanicPanic
@Iowa Old Lady: I don’t know much about early feminism but I know after the 15th Amendment passed the old feminist/abolitionist coalition broke up and some feminists were casting around for things to do. It makes sense to me that some of that activism resulted in historically some more liberal states having more restrictive laws. I am totally just irresponsibly speculating, but I understood that this is the site for it.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@schrodinger’s cat: Too short.
JustRuss
@Villago Delenda Est: Couple years ago I agreed to drive one of my wife’s grad students to Portland. Went to her place to pick her up, she strolls out with a beer in hand and climbs into the car. I was pretty non-plussed. I mean, I pulled crap like that when I was in college, but not with my boss or her spouse. She had just transferred from Montana, so maybe it’s not a thing there.
She did turn out to be the worst assistant my wife ever hired.
schrodinger's cat
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): I was too lazy to find and blockquote paragraphs about conspiracy theories.
ETA: BTW Happy Birthday in advance if I don’t see you around on the weekend. Any special plans?
schrodinger's cat
@SatanicPanic: I thought it was the early Puritan influence.
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: Calling someone a dumb shit isn’t an ad hominem?
So you’re still on board for WWIII? How about putting NATO nukes in Ukraine? Down with that? How about invading Crimea? Where do you draw the line? Economic warfare?
Did you call yourself a dumb shit six months after the US invaded Iraq, or did it take you longer?
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Bob In Portland:
Nope. Look it up.
schrodinger's cat
@JustRuss: Was she an international student, by any chance?
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland:
Assumes facts that are REALLY not in evidence, as I was opposed to the utterly illegal and immoral US invasion of Iraq before it even happened. You can wade through the archives over at Atrios’ place if you don’t believe me.
You, on the other hand, are the Baghdad Bob of the Donbass.
Helmut Monotreme
I failed the driver’s exam three times. It’s long enough ago that the only reason I remember for failing one of them was the instructor’s warning that prevented an accident. In any case, she has a long humiliating way to go before she gets to take a shot at the failure title.
SatanicPanic
@schrodinger’s cat: I’m sure that was part of it
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Since the wreckage hasn’t been released to independent investigators and is still being controlled by the separatists, how are you so absolutely certain that there are no signs of a missile attack? Because the state-controlled Russian press told you so, and the Russians have no reason to lie?
Roger Moore
@schrodinger’s cat:
Not straight up. The Puritans weren’t particularly anti-alcohol; that was people like the Methodists. The anti-alcohol stuff came more directly from the progressives, who wanted to improve society as a whole, not just government. Prohibition may have been excessive, but it was a response to real problems caused or exacerbated by alcohol. When the 21st Amendment passed, the people who had agreed to it still wanted to do something about drinking to excess, and they took advantage of the state powers to regulate alcohol.
Schlemizel
@Roger Moore:
Did you know that in Texas dry counties have a higher rate of DUI arrests than wet counties? Seems you need to drive to get to the county where you can buy your booze. I thought that fact was interesting. Also while in Dallas I stopped at a restaurant for dinner & was told I could not get a glass of wine as I was in a dry county. The waiter told me however that had I gone to a different place across the street I would be in a wet one & could have wine. So I did. Why would you open a place in when the guy across the street had a more attractive product that boosts his income substantially. I worked in one place that beer and wine sales were the profit, even if the same number of people came to eat with no booze (which they wouldn’t) he could not have stayed in business.
Mnemosyne
Back on topic: back in the 1950s, one of my aunts horribly failed her driving test in Illinois. Like, Stop the car and I will drive us back to the station failed. My grandfather managed to convince the guy to give her a license as long as she promised never to actually drive (she needed it for college). I’m guessing there was also money involved, but she did get the license and kept her promise not to drive until she finally learned how years later.
Villago Delenda Est
OK, I think we’re really slacking here, for a thread entitled “Coneheads”. No one has made a “mass quantities” reference yet.
schrodinger's cat
@Roger Moore: I can never keep all the Protestant denominations straight, too confusing. I am not schooled in church matters but to me the differences between them seem trivial.
Amir Khalid
My driving-test story (from 1979): I’d aced the parallel parking, side parking, moving off from a slope etc. portion. During the street-driving portion, I stopped at an intersection and forgot to shift from third into neutral. When I got going again, I was still in third, yet somehow I managed not to stall the car. But just barely; the tester had to have heard the engine struggling. I passed.
scav
@Iowa Old Lady: In certain places add the Klan to the temperance coalition. The book The Bootlegger about Kelly Wagle gets into it. And I’m pretty sure they showed up in some school consolidation issues in Iowa, but I forget the all the details in the latter case (see There Goes the Neighborhood: Rural School Consolidation at the Grass Roots in Early Twentieth-Century Iowa which is academic but we’ve got followers of school stuff here — The Bootlegger is more rompish, although I think I remember the Klan handing out textbooks there as well).
Villago Delenda Est
@schrodinger’s cat: Emo Phillips’ perhaps most well known (and copied) joke is appropriate here.
mack
@cckids. I was pretty happy about the low annual amount. The same thing happened when we added our daughter 3 years ago, 300 a year bump. I guess we got significant discounts for them being A students. But yes, I’ve heard horror stories about HUGE premium increases.
Eric U.
Is the troll the same guy that used to get paid to post at dKos? Because that’s too bad, if true
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
At least she didn’t confuse left and right. The local LEO who taught a private driving class would take students to the test, given by a state trooper in those days. As we pulled up, he said, “remember, left is the hand with the watch.” To no avail. I turned right at the second place she asked me to turn left. It was the only miss I had, and we did parallel parking in those days.
She told me “if you’re old enough to drive, you should be old enough to tell left from right, so I should probably fail you on general principle. But you drive fine, like all Ralph’s students, so I’m going to pass you.”
Ralph never let me forget it. Decades later when, after retiring from the LEO agency, he was a security bailiff in municipal court, he’d tease me. Then when anyone notice, he’d tell the story. So as a grown ass lawyer, and entire county courthouse knew I’d fucked up left from right on my driving test.
Gus
@schrodinger’s cat: Deep blue MN has some of the most restrictive liquor laws in the country, I believe. No “off sale” on Sundays except that abomination 3.2 beer. No alcohol in grocery stores at all except said 3.2 beer. No liquor, wine or strong beer available at retail after 10 (and many localities’ liquor stores close at 8 M-Th).
Bob In Portland
@schrodinger’s cat: If Russia wants to seize Ukraine, and that’s generally been the underlying theme here, why are they dragging it out? The Ukrainian army has been struggling for four months trying to defeat the “terrorists” in eastern Ukraine with superior numbers and superior arms. How’s that going so far? Russia would win the war in minutes if it attacked Ukie forces. Why don’t they?
I asked about a week ago for someone, anyone here to define Russia’s interests in Ukraine and the US’s interests there. So far I’ve gotten silence. The propaganda has worked on you. You’d rather ponder how you’d do in a ring boxing Putin than to actually contemplate what national interests there are at stake.
Have you asked yourselves why the US is opposed to South Stream?
On the road to freedom.
Where do you think the US is planning to ship LNG?
Cervantes
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Well, people nowadays often refer to verbal abuse as ad hominem. That’s pretty much the common understanding of the term. Like it or not, I doubt most people know how the term was used by, for example, Locke.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Well, maybe the Ukraine army should stop shelling the area. Despite the press there have been lots of inspectors in the area. One of the articles was from an OSCE inspector.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Cervantes: Doesn’t make it right.
Roger Moore
@Schlemizel:
I didn’t know that, but I’m not surprised. Bear in mind that in addition to the explanation you gave, prohibition is often a response to abuse. Maybe the reason those counties are dry is in part because they are trying to ban alcohol to prevent drunkenness.
Schlemizel
@Gus:
So, you have heard of the Volstead act, the law that made prohibition? Andrew Volstead was born in Kenyon, Goodhue County, Minnesota and was serving as the rep for MN-7 (Colin Peterson (Dino) these days).
Damn Norwegians! Its the belief that if anyone anywhere is having any fun it must be an affront to God Almighty. You still find those people parading as small government conservatives around rural MN
cckids
@mack: Yeah, we’ve got the A-student discounts, the multiple car discounts, the add-on home insurance discount. It still costs too much.
Cervantes
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Rightness depends on context. I’d say that there are two usages and he is, reasonably, using the more common one.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent’s character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
I knew the definition of fascism changed here in America, but was pretty sure ad hominem was the same.
Schlemizel
@Roger Moore:
I believe those counties have been dry since repeal so whatever response was needed would have been for the grandfathers and great-grandfathers of todays whacky drunks.
schrodinger's cat
@Schlemizel: The most drunk I have been was when I was invited to a traditional Norwegian Christmas feast. The booze was flowing like water, Aquavit and a different wine with each course. My friend is from Norway though, not the mid-west.
shelley
For Heaven’s sake, is anybody else getting this when t;hey first log on to BJ.? Some yahoo shrieking ‘We shall never surrender, we shall never surrender! ” It doesn’t seem to match any of the side ads.
schrodinger's cat
@shelley: Noscript and Adblock = No crazy yahoos screaming at you.
Schlemizel
why is anyone wasting time with Боб в Портленде? Nothing anyone can say will change his mind and it always ends in a pissing contest away from Боб в Портленда contention. Like singing to a pig, engaging Боб в Портленде the pig is incapable of getting anything from it and it annoys people around the pig.
Eric U.
@shelley: never surrender!
actually, I have the sound muted just for BJ, and I have headphones hooked up to my computer at work anyway. It’s just that the small amount of noise still bugs me
scav
@Schlemizel: EatApples? yup.
Pogonip
@Schlemizel: I told everybody to only reply to the troll with “Hodor,” but did they listen? No!
Hodor. The magic word.
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: How about Afghanistan? Do you believe that we stayed in Afghanistan for nearly fifteen years because Osama once lived in a cave there?
You don’t think it might have possibly had anything at all to do with the Taliban backing out of that TAPI pipeline project a few months before 9/11, do you?
You don’t think the US support against Assad that accidentally spilled into Iraq has anything to do with the proposed pipeline from Iran, through Iraq and across Syria, do you? Nah. That would mean that our foreign policy is based on controlling energy supplies and America would never do that, would they?
Why do you think that the US was funding the Chechen civil war? Because they were “freedom fighters” like the folks in El Salvador?
Okay, you must have solid proof that the US has not lied here because you are flirting with nuclear war. So lay it out. You won’t because you don’t.
But Obama wouldn’t lie because he’s a Democrat, never mind that Gulf of Tonkin thing.
What’s north of Afghanistan and east of Ukraine and Chechnya? Don’t rush, think about it.
Trollhattan
@Villago Delenda Est:
Emo! Used to love watching him, also, too, Judy Tenuta. A missing Emo car joke:
“So I was changing the radio while I was driving down the street…had it about halfway out when I crashed.”
Schlemizel
@schrodinger’s cat:
My belief is that the smart Norwegians tricked all their assholes into moving to the US. The ones I met in Scandinavia were all charming and enjoyable.
Bob In Portland
@Pogonip:
Bob In Portland
@Schlemizel:
Cervantes
@Bob In Portland: Neither of those are the original sense of ad hominem argument. Both of them have become current usage, almost to the total exclusion of the original. It annoys me, but then again, what doesn’t?
Schlemizel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
Amir Khalid
In the question of who shot down MH17, and the interpretation of whatever physical evidence is found, I intend to wait until we hear from the official investigative team. Which, as we all know, is led by the nation that had the most citizens aboard the plane.
That team has not made any statement about preliminary findings so far; only in the past couple of days have they had secure access to the site, which is in a war zone. In the two weeks since the crash, remember, there have been some particularly interested parties (i.e. separatist forces) messing about with it: shifting bodies and personal effects and wreckage round, perhaps even removing some of it.
Finally, I will believe the holes in the wreckage are from the guns of a fighter plane that can’t even fly at 10 000m, rather than from missile shrapnel, when the investigative team — and not, say, RT or the Center for Research on Globalization — announces such a conclusion.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: Russia has been acting reactively to the coup government and the war against the east. It did not shoot down the airliner.
It doesn’t want a failed fascist state on its borders, or NATO nukes there either, just like the US didn’t like Russian missiles in Cuba. It wants its pipelines across Ukraine safe from US intervention. It seized Crimea because it did not want to give up its bases there (and probably watch Kiev give it over to their new buddies, the Americans).
Have you read this yet, about America’s 70 year-old dirty little secret with Ukrainian fascists? Or is The Nation another Russian propaganda outlet?
Cervantes
@Amir Khalid: Wet blanket.
Anyhow, I agree.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: So sorry, I was away and missed your answer. Does Russia bear any responsibility for the state of war which exists in the Donbass?
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid:
Have you figured out the US’s national interests there yet? You probably haven’t even thought about it. Maybe you’re still pondering why NATO/US has been in Afghanistan for fifteen years because Osama once lived in a cave there.
Trollhattan
Feel the Freedom(tm) gun-totin’ gramps edition.
Responsibe gun owner responsible for what, now?
Cervantes
@catclub: If it’s any consolation, my hint got no further than yours did.
Steeplejack
@shelley:
It’s the Vine video in the Ted Cruz post a few down from this one on the main page. It autoplays, but, at least for me, it was automatically muted. You can manually mute it, of course.
Trollhattan
@Pogonip: Nobody promised us a Hodor! carpet-bomb. Somebody just got allowed back into the library, methinks.
Josie
@shelley:
It’s from Anne Laurie’s late nite open thread, featuring Ted Cruz imitating Churchill.
ETA: Steeplejack beat me to it.
Brendan in NC
@beth: It was common knowledge in Rochester, NY – that you signed up for a morning road test – the instructors were more likely to pass you than if they’d already had 4+ hours of whiplash from the morning tryouts…and I had to parallel park…and I took my test in a boat (1978 Olds 98 Regency)…and I passed (1st try), but my younger brother took it 5 times to pass. (and no one likes to drive with him, still)
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Do you think that posting that quote from Mein Kampf half a dozen times in one thread somehow increases its persuasive effect?
Amir Khalid
@Bob In Portland:
The US is willing to make stuff up in its national interest, as you note again and again. So why wouldn’t Russia? Do you believe Russia is too noble?
Dick Woodcock
I don’t know if it’s because times have changed in the past 25 years, or if it’s because you are in a different state, but I took my drivers test out on actual public streets.
I passed first try, but it almost started badly for me. The speedo in the car I was driving was set up weird. The numbers were on the panel about 3/4 of an inch in front of the actual needle, so when you looked at it from the passenger seat, it looked like you were driving 10 mph faster than you were. My tester noticed my speed right away, but I did a good job explaining things.
Bob In Portland
I’ll see how long the BJers will cling to the lie.
This is a war that the US wants, and to think that all the propaganda that comes one day and disappears the next is coincidental is just stupid, considering the history you’ve lived through.
They’re not lying to us because Obama is a good guy and Putin is a bad guy.
And the CIA may lie about spying on Congress but it would never, ever lie us into a war. Well, not this time because Obama is in charge and he would never allow it. He allows other things, but he wouldn’t allow this.
And Putin is a bad guy, too.
Just keep strapped in and note how we get into this war. Enjoy it, guys.
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: I don’t say they don’t. I keep asking you and the rest WHAT IS AMERICA’S INTEREST IN UKRAINE? How does everyone go back to “Russia must be lying” and cannot wrap their lobes around that question?
Is America’s interest in Ukraine freedom? You used to be able to use that one for just about any war the US started, but I’m guessing even the true patriots at BJ haven’t been able to spit out that one lately. Territorial integrity? Please, don’t make me laugh.
Is America trying to cut off Russian gas lines into Europe? Well, are they? It’s a pretty simple question. Do American oil interests want to drink the milkshake that is central Asian oil and gas? These are all questions you should be able to answer. Does America want to project its military into the region to get that big black bubbly?
Amir, just answer those questions. Don’t you think you should recognize our country’s motives for going to war?
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: I only hope that some people here recognize how propaganda works on them, and Hitler was spot on with that observation. Granted, unlike the Kiev fascists and their supporters in the CIA, I don’t particularly like Hitler and his WWII minions.
What are the US’ interests in Ukraine, Gin? And why no reference to that article in THE NATION? Were your folks settled in the Detroit area?
Amir Khalid
@Bob In Portland:
What is Russia’s? What is Putin’s?
Amir Khalid
@Amir Khalid:
These motivations could just as plausibly apply to Russia and President Putin.
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: Still can’t answer the question, Amir? How many times do I have to ask you?
Russia wants to continue supplying oil to Europe, as I’ve said a number of times. It wants its South Stream gas line completed so that Ukraine cannot stop the flow. Doesn’t that seem logical, even capitalistic?
I would also guess that Russia doesn’t want a failed state next door, which is what Ukraine is rapidly becoming. Third on the list is that Russia feels some cultural obligations to the many Russian speakers throughout Ukraine. That’s three reasons that don’t include “because Putin is an evil madman.”
So what are the US interests there? What were they in Afghanistan? Are the sanctions in Iran merely about nuclear weapons (cough, Pakistan, cough Israel)? Was the war in Iraq about the WMDs? Why did we support the rebels in Libya and then leave them in chaos?
The other day someone mentioned that American politicians should have to wear ads like the NASCAR drivers. What should we paint on the side of our tanks?
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: Most of that milkshake is in Russia. It’s supplying Europe right now.
But if you are ready to blame Russia for selling its natural gas to Europe then are you saying that it’s okay for the US to start a war in Ukraine so that America can control the gas flow into Europe? Is that the equivalent you are making?
And you can’t understand why as an American I might object to that?
Helmut Monotreme
Bob, your hatred has blinded you. The US and it’s military industrial complex is not interested in a war in Ukraine. The people that are agitating for war in the US are the same people that agitate for war in every situation i.e. warmongers. They are not in charge. The reason I can say this with some level of confidence, is that the US has no interest in fighting a nuclear armed opponent. Otherwise, George W Bush would have attacked every other country in the so-called axis of evil. The US military has practice fighting brush fire wars against opponents with no serious air force or anti air artillery. That would not describe a conflict with Russia. War with Russia over the Ukraine would almost certainly involve an exchange of nuclear weapons. No one sane wants world war III. Its bad business. Glowing cinders and ashes don’t buy jet fighters or Ford automobiles.
Amir Khalid
@Bob In Portland:
I’m not making any equivalence at all. All along you have been the one asserting, without offering any real proof, that America is intervening in or even masterminding the Russia-Ukraine conflict.
jafd
@schrodinger’s cat: Perhaps you should get a copy of that comprehensive guide to the varieties of religion in America …
you know …
The Joy of Sects
Anne Laurie
@Schlemizel:
Pfft. That’s what they said about the Vikings, too.
Bob In Portland
@Helmut Monotreme: Well, who wants the economic war against Russia?
And my “hatred”? Against the CIA and State Department? Should I be more loving towards Clapper et al? Embrace them with the love that they showed to the Salvadorean peasants?
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: Again, no answer. I hope you realize you are deliberately not asking a very simple question.
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: That should be answering a very simple question.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Bob In Portland:
The Gehlen Org.?
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: Are you saying that America has no interests in Ukraine?
Seventy years of no interests?
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: Are you saying that America has no interests in Ukraine?
Seventy years of no interests?
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): You mean this?
Glocksman
Heck, 30 years ago in Evansville driver’s ed was taught in high school.
In addition, the teacher could give you a waiver from the BMV driver’s test if he thought you didn’t need it.
I got my waiver and have never took a BMV driving test (still had to take the written one) at all.
I was taught to parallel park in a 1983 Monte Carlo, and while I wasn’t the best at lining up straight and even, I managed to never hit a cone.
The only time I have to parallel park these days is on the rare occasions I go downtown and my Kia Spectra is a hell of a lot easier to do so with than the 1975 454 Caprice I owned at age 18.
Gas Guzzling, godawful handling boat it was, though it had a nice cushy ride meant for cruising on the Interstate.
Seanly
@Amir Khalid:
Please don’t feed the trolls.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Bob In Portland: No, I mean the Gehlen Org. that seems to exist only inside your head that you believe is controlling everything in the world.
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: Amir, you don’t see the American hand in Ukraine? Really? Well, people who don’t recognize that they are being lied to with the simplest of propaganda won’t recognize it. You’ve chosen to remain ignorant of what’s happening there. That’s your choice.
Again. Unless you think that The Nation is a Russian mouthpiece. READ IT.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): The Gehlen exists “only inside my head”? Remember the American Football League? It existed. It was absorbed into the NFL. Those teams still exist. You understand that? Not the same players, the same teams.
Or that the Anti-Bolshevik Bloc Of Nations begat the Republican Captive Nations begat the World Anti-Communist League, etc.
The Gehlen Org existed. It was absorbed by the US Army at the end of WWII, then handed off to the CIA a little after that. Part of the Org were the OUN/B fascists. The Org was eventually handed back to the BND in the fifties. It probably didn’t call itself The Org after the Treaty of Fort Hunt.
That’s why I provided this link to America’s history of collaboration with the fascists of Ukraine.
And you either don’t read it or can’t respond to it. It was printed in THE NATION. Is THE NATION too much of a Russian mouthpiece for you to read?
Actually, Omnibus, you are now officially part of the lie by refusing to let your eyes read the article I’ve linked to. It’s there. The history of the US and the fascists in Ukraine. And here’s the Treaty of Fort Hunt.
Being willfully ignorant is worse than being ignorant. And really, if you want to remain ignorant why do you even care about Ukraine?
Bob In Portland
Amir Khalid cannot see the American hand in Ukraine. He refuses to read links I offer to him. He is incapable of stating what America’s interests are in Ukraine.
Omnibus is a little more cagey, relying on insult, but he too refuses to address America’s interests in Ukraine. We just want freedom is about as close as I can get, or Russia is dangerous, as if the concept of spheres of influence has never had any basis in reality.
And yes, it’s feeding the trolls so let’s avoid talking about Ukraine except to draw cartoons of Putin. And yes, let’s ignore the last seventy years of our history.
It can’t happen here because if it did you’d notice it. Right?
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Bob In Portland: I know that the fucking Gehlen Org existed. I just saying that the one that existed and the one inside your head probably share little more than a name.
And I read the fucking Nation piece a long time ago.
Carrie
I failed my first road test and that was 3 years ago.
I’m 49.
I thought that stop sign was for the other cars at the intersection cause it was all mangled with the face turned at a 45 degree angle like a snow plow had hit it!
I know the difference now.
satby
@Villago Delenda Est: does BiP’s mass quantities of BS count?
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): So do you think that the US has had a seventy-year history with the fascists of Ukraine? Do you agree that Svoboda is directly descended from the OUN/B? Do you agree that the US imported fascists and Nazi collaborators into the US, and that the Republican Party used them politically?
Or did nothing stick?
rk
This is exactly what happened with me and my daughter last week, but at a stop sign. I told her to turn left at the stop sign and she turned left without stopping. When I asked “why on earth didn’t you stop at the stop sign, she said she got confused and thought it I was telling her it was O.K. to go through the stop sign and make a left turn. I guess I should have said “turn left at the stop sign, but make sure you stop at the sign first”.
Good luck to your daughter for next time!
Avi
I got my license in Florida (Hillsborough County) in 1994. We had to parallel park. However, I took my “road test” in Driver’s Ed and got a certificate to skip the test at DHSMV. I’ve parallel parked in Florida maybe a dozen times in 20 years, but I also spend a few months in NYC where I did it a whole lot more. I’m not great at parallel parking, but I get by.
I see also that Florida has not just removed parallel parking from the test; they’ve completely removed it from the handbook. FSM help us all.
Bob In Portland
@satby: List the “BS” and I’ll gladly offer you links where I can. I’ve done it before and no one acknowledges them. I usually get an Omnibus-like non-response. Or an Amir-like non-response. I’ve also asked what specific evidence anyone has here that Russia or the rebels shot down the airliner and I get nothing.
Perhaps you can share what America’s interests in Ukraine are, since no one else here seems to be able to articulate it. And maybe you can explain why the US has been in Afghanistan for fifteen years. Please. Feel free.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Bob In Portland: Probably because people don’t take you seriously.
Pogonip
@Bob In Portland: Hodor.
Cervantes
@Bob In Portland:
I have not seen conclusive proof of anything, hence this.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland:
Holy shit, the projector is going into overdrive, AGAIN.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: I answered you. Did Saddam have any responsibility for the invasion? Sure. But he wasn’t the cause of the invasion.
After the fascist coup Russia seized Crimea. If you want to go by the Kosovo precedent it was legal. If not it was illegal. Are they arming the rebels? Sure, although apparently five Ukrainian generals were recently fired because they too were arming the rebels. Are there actual Russians in the Donbass? Yes. There are Blackwater (whatever they call themselves now) people there. There are CIA there.
So care to tell us where you picked up your Ukrainian? Didn’t think so.
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: How is your intellect doing on Afghanistan? Fifteen years soon. Because Osama once lived in a cave there, or did they lie to you on that one like they lied to you about the other wars?
And what makes you so sure that this time the State Department and the CIA are telling the truth this time?
Okay, let’s say that Russia is lying to the world. About what? And how does that directly affect the US? Do you actually think that Russia wants to conquer eastern Europe?
What happens if America is lying us into a war again? Well, nothing probably happened to you when they lied us into Afghanistan and Iraq, you know, besides spending trillions and getting a lot of farm boys killed and wounded?
So I guess you convinced me. We shouldn’t care whether or not the government lies to us. What can happen? Probably no one will make a false step and start a nuclear war. Russia will back down. Sure, everything’s A-OK. You got a recipe for all those extra tomatoes we get this time of year?
Original Lee
My condolences and sympathies. Tell the fledgling that I flunked my driver’s test the first time, too, and in a similar way. It was a very cold day, and by the time the tester and I returned to the car, the engine was stone cold. I was too nervous to sit in the car with the tester for a few minutes while the engine warmed up, though (still gives me the quivers thinking about it), so I pulled out of the parking space about 10 seconds after starting the engine.
In order to reach the test lot, you have to exit the parking lot and drive about a block. As I approached the parking lot exit and put on the brakes, the car stalled. I rolled the rest of the way to the exit, stopped, put the car in park, restarted the car, put the car in drive, checked for oncoming traffic, and made the turn.
I flunked. Apparently stopping to put the car in park to restart the engine doesn’t count as actually stopping for the exit.
The testers are evil, but now that a few years have passed, I have come to the conclusion that I would rather have lawful evil testers than chaotic evil fellow drivers.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): I gave you the example of the AFL. It existed. It became, mostly, the AFC. They still play football. Different players, but the new players still play football. Some teams changed cities and names. But they still play football.
There is a reason why our people in Operation Phoenix used torture tactics that were handed down to them. The guys who were part of the death squads in Central America, who were trained at the School of the Americas. There may still have been a few old Nazis around at the School of the Americas but by then the lessons, the handicraft, had been passed on. Pinochet wasn’t a Nazi, although he dressed and acted like one. Same with the Bolivian Cocaine Coup. Oh, and those generals in Argentina. Not to get any Elvis Costello here fans riled up, but I don’t think when he sang, “I hear that South America is coming into style” that he was talking about bikini waxes.
Villago Delenda Est
I’m sure BiP’s next act will be to tell us that the Holodomor was a CIA fable created to discredit Stalin.
FYI, Gospodin Romanov, I opposed the intervention in Afghanistan at the time, and to the present day, as well. Simply because dealing with terrorism by military means is using a very blunt instrument on something that requires a more nuanced approach to be successful You know, like using a SAM to shoot down an airliner filled with civilians who just happen to be passing by and claiming that it was “shadowed” by a Ukrainian fighter.
satby
@Bob In Portland: Hoder.
pat
Hmmm.. should someone be alerted that Bob seems to be off his meds??
jayjaybear
I must live in Backwardia. I’m reading everyone here talking about rarely having to parallel park and it sounds like HEAVEN! I have to parallel park every freaking day and I hate it.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
Young master Hayduke passed on his first try. He’s an extraordinarily safe and careful driver.
infovore
@Bob In Portland: The author of the Global Research article, one Prof Michel Chossudovsky, seems to favor the idea that MH17 was shot down by an Su-25. What he fails to mention is that an Su-25 with a service ceiling of some 23,000ft would have a hard time getting close enough to a Boeing 777 flying at 33,000ft to use its guns. It also doesn’t help that the maximum speed of an Su-25 barely exceeds the cruise speed of a Boeing 777.
Justin Bronk, an analyst at the Royal United Services Institute says that the damage is consistent with a missile strike. Many anti-aircraft missiles, the Buk among them, use proximity fuses and explode at some distance from the target and send a cloud of shrapnel into the target. This tends to be much more effective against aircraft than a direct strike. A warhead designed for this will often contain something like ball-bearings as an additional source of shrapnel. This results in a lot of similar-sized “bullet-like” holes on impact, in addition to the more irregular holes caused by fragments of the missile’s body.
As to who shot down MH17, I’m inclined to believe it was the seperatists, based on their crowing on social media about shooting down an aircraft before it became clear that this wasn’t an Ukrainian troop transport. That the crew manning the Buk wasn’t well-trained is pretty much confirmed by them shooting at an aircraft without first confirming what it was they were targeting. And then the whole distateful “I didn’t do it, nobody saw me do it, there’s no way you can prove anything!” routine started.
pat
@infovore:
Thank you for that cogent explanation. It makes a lot of sense, but consider the Truthers who are still convinced WTC 7 was brought down by planted explosives. Some people are going to cling to whatever fantasy fits their world view, and don’t try to convince them with “facts.”
Death Panel Truck
Because we live in a police state.
SATSQ.
steverinoCT
After losing my license (ahem), I had to take the test in FL to get it back. I had a coworker drive me to the DMV, and he stood in line with me (forever) and waited while I took his car out on the enclosed course and proceeded to make four “rolling stops” at the four stop signs. Fail. Next day, the same coworker drove me to the DMV, and he stood in line with me (forever) and waited while I took his car out on the enclosed course and made four very exaggerated, deliberate stops. Pass.
.
In retribution, when it happened that we had another coworker that needed to get a FL license by taking the test, I was instructed to take him. I dropped him off at the DMV, went out to grab a paper, coffee, and a bagel, and sat in the car until it was time for the road test. Didn’t mind at all!
infovore
@pat: My main takeaway from the 9/11 truthers is that apparently, if it isn’t a controlled demolition, the pieces of a building the size of one of the WTC towers will fall in any direction except down.
As for convincing the true believers, I’m old enough to remember Ted “felt effect of gravity” Holden posting on talk.origins, and how utterly impervious he was to argument.