I think we all agree that Ferguson police chief Thomas Jackson should make a return trip to FOX so he can explain to Sean Hannity why his town all of a sudden became a nice place when the police stopped treating citizens like dangerous animals. In a perfect world that very awkward conversation would last three hours with no breaks.
Before
CREDIT: AP Photo/Jeff Roberson
After
St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson taking a selfie with a protestor. This is a CHANGED atmosphere. #Ferguson pic.twitter.com/Jm51iZXdvz
— Yamiche Alcindor (@Yamiche) August 15, 2014
Well, Sean, it’s a mystery. The only thing that changed was us.
Reader Interactions
266Comments
Comments are closed.
Baud
I wonder how many people who said the before was America will admit the after is America too.
ETA: E pluribus unum is Latin for We’re a complex motherfucker.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: Here’s my guess: Zero.
Mustang Bobby
Somehow Sean Hannity will find a way to take credit for the peaceful atmosphere despite the meddling of that outside agitator Barack Benghazi Obama.
Elizabelle
How IS Fox News covering this?
It’s so obvious the paramilitary approach failed, majorly, and now I hope the police lose their shiny new military playthings.** OR get hammered with regulation upon regulation on when and how it is appropriate to pull the “Street Baghdad” gear.
Adults are back in charge.
[** I can see major cities still having lots of SWAT and military equipment, but their forces are — we hope — better trained, and they’re more likely to need the stuff AS A LAST RESORT. One good outcome would be lots of community involvement and oversight of those who protect and serve us.]
NorthLeft12
@Baud: Speaking as a foreigner who is ten minutes away from the US, I think most people understand that both of those places are America.
What is scary to me is that I cannot be sure which one of those I am going to get on my infrequent visits to Michigan and beyond.
And for the record, I really did not feel that way twenty years ago. I was one of those Canadians who felt that the violence, etc. in the US was over sensationalized.
Elizabelle
Sean Hannity is loathesome. He would not find ratings in a civil society.
Elizabelle
@NorthLeft12:
I think it’s worsened, and I think it’s the rightwingers and their news channel, Fox News, that have brought us the coarsening and driven the polarization.
It benefits their aims.
Comrade Dread
Truly amazing how showing empathy, respect, and a common humanity will tend to reduce tensions and open doors.
I hope other police departments are taking a lesson from this.
Punchy
You mean the po-po cant just willy-nilly roll out the amored chupacabra to arrest those (obviously, negroid) jaywalkers? What if said scofflaws pull out a weapon, like a cig lighter or bag of Skittles? How do you expect One Time to defend itself without 6″ of steel between themselves and all that iced tea?
rikyrah
that would mean that they would be capable of self-awareness…
you tickle me with this post.
Cacti
Respect for authority starts with authorities who act respectably.
The difference in approaches between the Mo. State Police and the St. Louis County PD should become a required case study in police departments nationally.
Tommy
The news today when I picked of the St. Louis Post Dispatch is Gov. Nixon has put the State Highway Patrol in charge of policing the city. Not really heard that mentioned here and I’d say a pretty major thing.
Although I think it is a good development in a situation where there are not many good developments, I have to admit I didn’t even know something like this was legal and/or possible.
Here is the intro to the story:
Cervantes
@Baud: What’s more, in this case it would have been trivially easy to skip the before entirely.
Elizabelle
And today in “good guy with a gun” news, from the WaPost:
Kid snuck out; was trying to sneak back in through the garage ….
So Officer Good Gun may not even have given a verbal warning, or inquired who was in his garage.
Daughter’s in “stable” condition. Dad and his employer may be rethinking Deputy McDonald’s fitness for police work.
Ben Cisco
I’m glad to see that common sense (and common decency) prevailed. And yes, America at its best is pretty damned awesome. Ferguson became a national- no, INTERNATIONAL symbol for police asshattery AND an example of how NOT to show your ass when enforcing the law in less than a week.
Very mercurial, but that is also America. And to paraphrase NorthLeft12, one doesn’t know which one s/he will face when heading out the door. Which is pretty meaningful when you, or your kids, look like the ones that keep getting shot down in the street. Just a thought.
schrodinger's cat
The officer near the camera is quite portly. Don’t the police have any physical fitness requirements?
schrodinger's cat
Is it me or does Sam Dotson looks like Benjamin Sisko’s (Avery Brooks) younger brother?
Tommy
@Elizabelle: I saw that story a day or so ago. Appears his daughter will live. I think I thought what you thought from your comment. This is a cop. Somebody trained to use a gun. And he shot his daughter in his own house. Clearly something is wrong here on like ten different levels.
Look I don’t own a gun, Never would. But if I did, and maybe I am stupid, but before I shot somebody in my house I would at least announce myself.
Ben Cisco
@schrodinger’s cat: Dotson is the officer in the second photo. Not Sisko-like.
Keith G
The tragic taking of that young man life should not be politicized. (Full stop)
(New paragraph) The cleanup of the mess made by this tragic event, as well as the ability to reduce the probability of such events in the future, require political action. A difference between Democrats and Republicans is that we believe in taking the measures necessary to correct these problems – well most of us do and the rest will also as soon as we start holding them accountable.
This is why voting matters. This is why we must pound these differences into the heads of the people who are not paying attention and make it nearly impossible for them to resist the urge to go out and vote. That is the minimum required behavior for those who wish to lead a political party.
Face
@Elizabelle: Simply amazing the cop/dad doesn’t make any attempt to make a vague ID of the person before unloading the lead. Glad to see she’s going to live. Cannot fathom the lifelong heartache one would have if they’d mistakenly killed their own child, soley because of this “need” to play Rambo in one’s own house.
That said, I’m sure he’ll donate to the NRA next year and punch the ballots for a straight GOP ticket.
Burnspbesq
Unfortunately, what happened yesterday in Ferguson is a band-aid on a sucking chest wound. In a few weeks, the media and the staties will pack up and leave, and Ferguson will still be a majority-black town with white hands on all the levers of power. It still needs a new mayor and a new police chief with a commitment to community-based policing. Unless it gets those things, it’s only a matter of time before another incident between a white cop and a black resident goes badly wrong.
The whole world is watching … for now. The whole world is notoriously bad at follow-through.
Tommy
@Face: He lives with at least one other person. I live by myself in a five bedroom house. If you are in my house and I don’t know it, well you shouldn’t be there.
Now I don’t own any guns, but might take a baseball bat up against your head. Not announce myself to you. But if I had a wife, kids, I wouldn’t go firing off a gun or swing a bat until I knew who you were.
I mean is it dangerous to go and get a glass of milk at 4 AM in this house?
J R in WV
@NorthLeft12:
Over the past 20 years, the period of time you reference as causing you to become more wary of violence in America, the actual violent crime rate has crashed downward. According to FBI data released in 2012 and covered by NBC:
from the same article on NBC.com.
So I think it is clear that what you (and everyone else) are reacting to is the absurd reporting on every violent crime by every news outlet in the world, which multiplies the effect of every crime on people’s feelings about crime.
We’re safer than we have been in decades, in every way. To arrest mothers for allowing their kids to walk to school or play in the park is crazy in every way!
But if it bleeds, it leads. And there’s no controlling a free press, even if that free press is crazy.
Betty Cracker
@Keith G: I was reading something — at Vox, maybe? — about why the political representation in Ferguson is so skewed. IIRC, the most recent voter turnout figure was around 12%.
Nothing is going to truly and fundamentally change until that shit changes, not in Ferguson and not anywhere else. I keep reading all these dire predictions about how the GOP will take the Senate this year, and I have no reason to disbelieve them.
But it doesn’t have to be that way, goddamn it! GOP policies are not popular. And yes, they have (illegally in my view and certainly reprehensibly by any standard) put up hurdles to voting to keep the poors and minorities out. But they rely on our apathy even more than on dirty tricks.
What will it take to wake people up? There was at least one commenter here at BJ calling for assassinating cops a couple of days ago, which is fucking nuts, but I get the desperation and anger, which is widespread. Why can’t it be channeled to shaking off the apathy instead of violence?
Our votes are more powerful than Molotov cocktails if we use them.
Xenos
The butthurt over this humiliation of white male authority figures is going to be epic. I would not be surprised if peak wingularity happens this afternoon after the radio jockeys go searching for something make themselves the victims in all this.
Belafon
@Keith G:
You do realize that these sentences contradict each other, right. The moment any decision crosses from a private individual to a community, it becomes political. That’s just part of the definition of politics.
I know you’re hoping that this will rise above the usual Republican-Democrat thing, but even those lines were drawn – by Republicans, including the St. Louis Country Sheriff – while this was going on. The best we can hope for is that some of the overreacting Republicans can be shamed into thinking things through a bit more.
schrodinger's cat
@Ben Cisco: Oops, my bad. I scanned the post too quickly. I meant the one below the selfie, the officer who is hugging a woman.
Ben Cisco
@Burnspbesq: Well said.
Tommy
@Betty Cracker: My mother runs elections in her district. About 12% voting on off Presidential elections. Then about 35%. My mom calls me in tears that more people don’t vote. Pains her. Pains me. I don’t understand but it is what it is.
Kent
Moving from the NW to Texas and working in the local Texas public schools has been an eye opener in terms of understanding race relations and the relationship between white cops and black kids. We may live side by side but the world that blacks and whites live in is still very different. Here’s just one minor example I encountered last spring.
The mostly affluent HS I work at sells student parking passes for about $50/year so that kids can park in the acres of parking lots that surround the school. Students without parking passes are liable to get their car booted by school security. Last week of school a black student of mine had gotten a new car and went down to the office to get a new parking pass. The told him “don’t worry about it, it’s the last week of school, we aren’t doing any more parking enforcement”. The next day a furious mother shows up at the school demanding a parking pass for her son’s new car. Turns out the pass had nothing to do with parking at the school and everything to do with a black kid just being able to drive around our mostly white and affluent suburb without being hassled by the white local police force. Apparently a black kid driving around town with our local HS parking sticker on the back of the car is much less likely to get hassled. Driving while black without the correct ID badge on your car is dangerous. Something all the local black moms automatically know. But as the parent of a 16 year old blonde girl who just started to drive, it was something that was completely out of my frame of reference.
Skerry
So, is it just me or did the Chief just heavily imply that Michael Brown was involved in a robbery just prior to his death?
schrodinger's cat
Zen moment for Friday,two images of America, both beautiful.
Burnspbesq
@Betty Cracker:
Well …
http://www.ncmd.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions/13cv658moo.pdf
I assume DOJ will file an emergency appeal to the Fourth Circuit, but with only 75 days until Election Day, I am not in love with the timeline.
Botsplainer
I’m going to cue the police and RWNJ talking points:
Keith G
@Betty Cracker: We citizens have a role to play and most of us could probably do a lot more than we do. BUT. …one thing I have always admired about conservatives is that their leadership latch onto an issue and go out and make noise. They have no fear in rousing the rabble. The most ingenious of them craft a message and then expand the audience. Wrong or right, that was part of the ascendancy of Ronald Reagan.
Our leadership may be the smartest people in the room, but being correct is only one step in a very arduous process.
Burnspbesq
@Ben Cisco:
Thanks. My lucid moment for today. We now return to your regularly scheduled programming.
Chris
@Betty Cracker:
I wonder if that’s just apathy in the population or if – given the way the authorities seem to treat black people, a.k.a. the majority of their constituents – there’s more to it than that.
Keith G
FYWP
AxelFoley
@Skerry: Nope, wasn’t just you.
Betty Cracker
@Kent: Excellent example of invisible (to many white folks, anyway) inequality. Thanks for sharing it.
@Keith G: True. But damn, if the rotten state of affairs in Ferguson and countless other communities isn’t an excellent opportunity to craft a compelling message that the political control in your community matters, I don’t know what is.
Bobby Thomson
You’re far too optimistic. At least 27% of the population views those photos as evidence of Obama negotiating with terrorists.
SiubhanDuinne
@Chris:
I would imagine that after this, there’s going to be a much bigger turnout this November. Assuming, that is, that there are viable candidates in numbers and philosophies more representative of the town’s population.
TXkid
@Elizabelle: Well, last night a talking head on Fox was bitching that Obama didn’t stop golfing to fix the problem. I may have giggled at the sheer idiocy…
Skerry
@AxelFoley: evidently, the police report about the robbery identifies Brown and Johnson as the robbers of some Swisher Sweets at a convenience store.
Definitely justifies killing him in the street.
Botsplainer
@Chris:
I suspected, and think its confirmed, that their municipal elections aren’t held on regular election day.
http://www.fergusoncity.com/61/City-Council
A lot of small cities run like that, and it is always bullshit.
Botsplainer
April 8, 2014 is municipal election day in Missouri.
http://www.sos.mo.gov/elections/calendar/default.asp?id=2014
raven
@Skerry: Pictures aren’t going to help things.
SiubhanDuinne
@Tommy:
It pains me too. And yet, often when I express my anger/frustration/sadness over low voter turnout to someone, I get a response like “Yeah! Voting should be mandatory!”
And I couldn’t disagree more with that. Terrible idea, straight out of the most despotic dictatorships in the world. But I do think there’s a lot we could do to make voting (and voter registration) easier and attractive and, heck, even fun.
Lots of obstacles, not least of which is the fact that each state (and thus each state’s governing party) makes its own rules. For federal elections, at least, the rules should be uniform nationwide.
It’s an important conversation, and I’ll bet your mom has some ideas on what could realistically be changed to improve the turnout numbers.
SiubhanDuinne
@schrodinger’s cat:
What a country! Thank you for those beautiful photos.
Keith G
@Belafon: Allow me to parse that comment out a bit for you. In the first part, I think no family should have their tragedy become a political rallying point until or unless they are willing to deal with that type of stress and activity.
Additionally, focusing on a single tragedy no matter how compelling, casts too narrow of a focus. It allows too many observers to think, “Well I don’t live there, I’m not that color, this is not my issue.”
None-the-less, cleaning up the processes that allow these tragedies to occur is a political cause. It is one that the leadership of the Democratic Party should latch on to with all its might.
Mandalay
Today the shooter is named by the police, and Nixon says “I think that will be a step on the road to healing here and justice”.
Yesterday when asked to comment on the illegality of withholding the name he said he didn’t want to talk about that.
A jellyfish has more spine.
Belafon
@Keith G: Thanks. I just get annoyed at “keep politics out of this” and probably overreacted. Once there is more than one non-related person involved, it really becomes politics, especially if that person is a public official.
Skerry
@raven: Wondering why Johnson wasn’t arrested for the robbery?
SiubhanDuinne
@Chris:
@SiubhanDuinne:
Obviously I wrote about Ferguson voter turnout in November before seeing the various comments about municipal elections in Missouri.
(Autocorrect wants to turn municipal into mind ipad.)
schrodinger's cat
@SiubhanDuinne: I am so glad you liked them.
Amir Khalid
This is the surely the best outcome that anyone could hope for. But I wonder how many see it as the wrong outcome. I suspect there are some, particularly among those who were covertly or otherwise cheering on the county police and their plainly wrongheaded approach.
lurker dean
@Skerry: Yeah, there’s something up because the alleged reason the shooting cop spoke to Brown and Wilson is because they were walking in the street, not because they were robbery suspects.
FlyingToaster
@Amir Khalid:
27%, if things run like they usually do. But it’s probably higher, given that this is St Louis County and it’s not significantly different than the other side of the state. Probably 40% of the adjacent communities’ residents are racist whites who’d as soon shoot anyone not sufficiently White/Christian/Conservative as they.
Keith G
@Mandalay: Now now, you have to give him credit. He evolved.
Xenos
Re that robbery… you can take a look at the police report and the pictures at TPM, fro a robbery that took place immediately before the shooting
Item 1 – it is obviously not the same guy. 50lbs difference, different clothes,
Item 2 – the police report names Brown specifically as the perp. WTF? The clerk knew Brown and named him specifically? Highly doubtful.
chopper
@schrodinger’s cat:
oh, do i miss the scenery of the central coast. big sur is the most beautiful place on the planet.
Aimai
@SiubhanDuinne: australia has mandariry voting. Its a “despotic dictatorship?”
GregB
@Skerry: Robbery is different than theft. Were weapons or violence or threats involved?
chopper
@Xenos:
seriously, that’s the best the cops could cough up in a week? oh, it’s totes him. remember, the camera adds 50 pounds.
lurker dean
@Xenos: good points. i thought the clothes were different but couldn’t remember for sure. yeah, the use of the name in the reports would seem to be a dead giveaway that this robbery report was fabricated afterwards.
Villago Delenda Est
@Punchy: Good capture of a lot of memes!
Cacti
Here’s one big ass problem with that robbery video.
The person in the video is wearing flip-flops.
The video of brown lying dead in the street shows him in white high-tops.
max
@chopper: seriously, that’s the best the cops could cough up in a week? oh, it’s totes him. remember, the camera adds 50 pounds.
They look bad at the moment what with everything calming down so they’re going to throw some sand, see if they can distract everybody. Anybody.
max
[‘They’re both black, so OBVS they must be the same guy.’]
chopper
@Cacti:
obviously, in the short time between that robbery and his run-in with officer friendly, brown changed into khakis and high tops. maybe in a telephone booth. and he lost 50 pounds in the process. he’s practically a super villain.
TS
@Xenos:
Re that robbery… you can take a look at the police report and the pictures at TPM, fro a robbery that took place immediately before the shooting
Item 1 – it is obviously not the same guy. 50lbs difference, different clothes,
Item 2 – the police report names Brown specifically as the perp. WTF? The clerk knew Brown and named him specifically? Highly doubtful.
Anyone can write a police report a week after the event. When they realized the “Brown was trying to get the officer’s gun” wasn’t going anywhere, they had to think up a new story
Tone In DC
These county cops are as bad at covering their foul asses as they are at policing.
At this point, to me, the calm is the best thing that can be expected in that atmosphere.
And, yes, I do think the White House may have contacted Jellyfish Jay this week. And offered him a bit of, uh, motivation.
And I don’t give a damn if that motivation was Chicago Style.
gene108
Today is the 67th Indian Independence Day from British Rule, if anyone’s interested.
Baud
BREAKING: Ferguson police report reveals Brown member of ISIS.
Goblue72
@Betty Cracker: the St Louis DA (Chief Prosecuting Cracker) is in the press today complaining about state police taking over and saying the locals should have been left in charge.
Meanwhile, Ferguson Police Chief Cracker is in the press suggesting Brown matched description of a robber in a convenience store “strong arm” robbery earlier that day. (Ignoring that video shows a robber 50 – 75 lbs heavier than Brown, no weapons were shown, and rhe theft was of a total of 6 cheap cigars)
So yes, #1 is still America and #2 is the soft focus lens Movie of the Week version.
Xenos
Taking a closer look at the report, (see here), the robbery takes place in plain daylight. Also, the robbery incident report is #2014-12388 while the police report for the shooting is #2014-43984 (according to the same document).
Sounds like a pretty busy day for the Ferguson P.D. No wonder it took them a while to sort things out with 3,000 incidents in one evening.
JPL
@chopper: I tried to enlarge the picture and I can’t tell. The hat could have fallen off when he tried to run. You still don’t shoot someone multiple times, though. You just don’t.
Goblue72
@Burnspbesq: Yup
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@Xenos:
Here’s the saddest part: the police released those pictures because they really do think that all black men look alike, so nobody would possibly be able to tell that those pictures were not of Brown.
Also, the guy in those pictures is obviously in his 30s, not 19 years old. Just embarrassing.
Villago Delenda Est
@J R in WV:
The free press is crazy like a fox.
This is all about money, in the form of ratings. If it bleeds, it leads, is absolutely going for the sensational to attract eyeballs. Nothing more, nothing less. “News” must be presented as entertainment.
The American model of television is the root source of the problem. The true customers of a television station, the way it makes its money, is selling time to advertisers, and they use their programming as a means of attracting a audience that will entice advertisers to buy time to sell whatever it is they’re selling.
chopper
@Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):
this whole thing smacks of post-hoc CYA. but white conservatives are gonna eat it up.
scav
Chree-ist this Ferguson PD really hasn’t shown any evidence of competence or fitness for duty on multiple occasions. And O! the wailing and whining we’ll likely heat when their word is not accepted instantly as gospel and their every action is watched, evaluated and found suspicious when walking in public, even when not sporting the gang color and badge.
Villago Delenda Est
@Burnspbesq:
The whole world has a short attention span. Look, squirrel!
beth
@Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): doran johnson’s lawyer has confirmed that it was Brown and his client in the store. Just reported on MSNBC. Says they told all investigators about the robbery right from the start.
Cacti
Putting on my old crim-def lawyer’s hat…
The video of the alleged robbery was around 11:54 a.m.
Wilson’s encounter with Brown and Johnson was between 1:40 and 2:00 p.m.
So Wilson was responding to a robbery in the area 2-hours later?
jurassicpork
Police typically have bad optics and are notoriously tone deaf re PR. All those idiots at the3 Ferguson PD did was force us to have the debate about the militarization of law enforcement that they’d dreaded we’d have. Instead of specifically investigating the isolated, opportunistic lootings, they decided to turn their guns on the entire town and turn Ferguson into Checkpoint Charlie and the entire town into a national embarrassment. Now we can have the give and take we should’ve been having all along: Why DID Darren Wilson shoot Michael Brown?
Anyway, on the cultural front: If I can’t have my life narrated by Morgan Freeman, then at least I’d like to have my novel’s book trailer narrated by the Statue of Liberty. Seriously, I can make that happen, with your help. Details here. P. S. I’m also offering a giveaway.
OGLiberal
@Goblue72: I think that could be Brown based on other photos I’ve seen. And the person with him is wearing a darked colored shirt, which is what Dorian Johnson was wearing in the video that was taken right after the shooting. So could be Brown did rob (more like shoplift, although the perp did shove the shopowner) those cigars. But to Josh Marshall’s point, why are we only hearing about this alleged robbery 5 days later. Wouldn’t this be information the police would release immediately. Why were there no reports of Brown and/or Johnson in possession of stolen cigars. And even if he did steal them, is is logical or credible that a guy who lifted a few bucks worth of cigars would shortly afterwards try to grab a cops gun. And should a cop believe that a guy who shoplifted is such a threat to public safety that he would have to kill the kid while he was fleeing.
I’m willing to believe Brown stole those cigars, but this whole thing still stinks even if he did. But you can be sure the cops and the wingnuts will be saying stuff like, “Well, if he steal those cigars and push that small shopkeeper, what else would he be capable of doing? Maybe he wasn’t such a “gentle giant”? And looks at those pictures of him flashing gang signs!”
Ben Cisco
@raven:
Especially when the pictures aren’t even of him:
He must’ve chugged some Hydroxycut and changed pants real fast…
Betty Cracker
@Goblue72: Still advocating for assassinating cops, then? Or is it a good thing that cooler heads prevailed in the present situation and now we need to push for political change?
That’s the question. No one is claiming that a less heavy-handed response to the protests is a magic wand that made all the racism go away.
chopper
@lurker dean:
right. clearly the cop who shot the kid didn’t even care or maybe even know about the kid being a suspect in an earlier robbery. which means the robbery is a red herring at best, and a deliberate made-up smear at worst.
Iowa Old Lady
@Cacti: I’m sickened by the way Brown is being defamed. And mud sticks.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ben Cisco: I think part of the problem here was that the robbery suspect was identified as a “black male” with no other descriptors included. Noting that the suspect was “heavyset” might have been helpful. However, officer Wilson, being your typical Ferguson po-lease-man, saw a golden opportunity to put some mud people in their place. When his authoritay wasn’t immediately deferred to, a button was pushed and he went into the “I’ll deal with these uppities right fucking now” mode.
SiubhanDuinne
@Aimai:
I did not know that. I was thinking of North Korea. Obviously I need to be better informed on mandatory voting around the world before I hold forth. Starting with the basics at Wikipedia.
Thanks.
Cacti
Crim Def hat again:
Earlier in the week, Ferguson chief says that Wilson was on a routine patrol in the area.
Now Wilson was responding to a robbery.
That’s a fairly substantial change.
Oh the lengths that the boys in blue will go to, to cover for their own.
Villago Delenda Est
@OGLiberal:
This is known as desperately trying to cover your very exposed oversized Boss Hogg ass.
Cacti
@Iowa Old Lady:
We all know that at some point, he was going to be put on trial for his own death.
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@beth:
And shoplifting cigars is now punishable by death? I guess I didn’t realize we were devolving back to Victorian England where minor property crimes carried the death penalty. We’ve just done away with the pesky “trial” and “sentencing” parts.
SiubhanDuinne
@Tone In DC:
Yeah, I thought that yesterday while I was watching the Prez.
GRANDPA john
@Betty Cracker: This.
live in South Carolina where teachers are being minimized by miz Nicky and crew. Just this week I read in the local paper that of 47,000 teachers in the state, 19,000 (40%) are NOT registered to vote
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
LOL
Villago Delenda Est
@gene108: It’s also V-J day in Britain, although the US officially commemorates it on 2 September, the date the surrender was signed.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cacti: Trayvon Martin was. Why shouldn’t Mike Brown?
beth
@Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): I never said that – please don’t put words in my post. I was just noting that its been confirmed that it was Brown. There seemed to be some confusion about that and since I’m watching tv I thought I’d pass along the info. Chill out, jeez.
OGLiberal
@Villago Delenda Est: Agree. Just don’t know why they wouldn’t have covered their ass sooner.
Ben Cisco
@Villago Delenda Est: We all look alike, dont’cha know…
Tone In DC
@SiubhanDuinne:
I saw your comment (and maybe a few others, my memory isn’t what it used to be). Seeing that sentiment made me smile, admittedly.
As for Jay Nixon, the situation should have nudged him toward action well before he actually did anything. Red state or no, I figure he needed a push. Or a shove.
Violet
Is this thread rendering weird for anyone? It looks okay on my computer but on my phone the comments are narrow and I can’t read the timestamp. On my computer when I’m typing in the comment box it looks bolded.
Mandalay
@Cacti:
Reuters reports a different timeline:
Mike in NC
@Amir Khalid: Hannity and his goon followers surely hoped the streets would run red with blood.
Belafon
@Violet: Yep, and the numbering on the comments isn’t being drawn properly: The first digit in a three digit number isn’t being drawn.
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@beth:
What do you think Hannity is going to be saying? Fox News? CNN? Scarborough on MSNBC itself?
Watch for a few minutes and you will see ALL of them implying what I just said — he (allegedly) stole some cigars, so he deserved to be shot dead in the street. In a normal country, that wouldn’t be the conclusion, but we obviously don’t live in a normal country.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ben Cisco: This explains why when I look at Spike Lee, he’s indistinguishable from Duke Ellington.
Goblue72
@Betty Cracker: I’d have preferred a few pigs in Hell. Maybe something might change. Or at least there’d be blood for blood.
Because I can see exactly where this is going and it ain’t justice. Lets check in a year from now. I’ll put $100 on the table the pigs get off with a slap on the wrist (no jail time, maybe goes on ‘suspended leave’, keep their pensions), Ferguson PD makes no meaningful reforms beyond some lipstick (pigs in drag), and the beat of the War Pigs continues.
lol
@JPL:
He was wearing a hat. There’s photos of it near the murder scene.
Villago Delenda Est
@Belafon: I’m seeing that number thing in Chrome, myself.
Mandalay
@beth:
Good luck with that. It’s her raison d’être.
Goblue72
@OGLiberal: why do you so easily give the cops the benefit of the doubt? What on God’s green earth have they done so far to deserve it? I assume they are lying through their teeth until so otherwise demonstrated by neutral third parties. (And I’m not talking about the media – I’m talking about the DOJ)
gelfling545
@max: Really. A black guy in a white t-shirt – can’t be many of those. Sweet Baby Jesus.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mike in NC: Absolutely. That was the goal of the Ferguson PD in the first place. They were looking for a riot, they were hoping for a riot, they wanted to bust some ni*CLANG* heads. Their entire response was intended to provoke violence so they could return it tenfold.
And Hannity and his fanbois were hoping that’s what would happen. Let’s shove those people into their place. At the feet of their natural masters…the master race.
This is getting more and more National Socialist by the minute.
Scuffletuffle
@J R in WV: Look for those crime rates to begin rising…we’ve cut the support system for the poorest among us. Having food and a roof over your head is a contributing factor in lower crime statistics. Take that support away, what other choice do folks have.
beth
@Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): so go jump down their throats not mine. I was just putting out a fact; should we just go on for 100 more comments comparing body types, clothing or discussing high tops vs. flip flops?
OGLiberal
@Goblue72: Didn’t somebody above mention that Dorian Johnson’s attorney confirmed that was him and Johnson in the store with the cigars? My point is that even if they shoplifted (still think it’s closer to that than “strong arm” robbery) I don’t think that had anything to do with the shooting, a shooting which appears to have been completely unjustified – ie, murder. It’s a stretch to believe that Brown would reach for the cop’s gun and if he didn’t, I can’t see any reason for the copy to shoot a guy running away. And even if he did reach for the gun, he obviously didn’t get it – so you still shouldn’t be shooting somebody running away…or, even worse, surrendering.
We can believe Brown stole the cigars and believe that he was murdered by the cop.
Amir Khalid
@Goblue72:
OGLiberal is highly sceptical of the Ferguson PD’s claims regarding the alleged robbery, but that seems to have escaped your notice.
Tommy
@Villago Delenda Est: I want to think you are wrong. That can’t be. But alas I think you are right. As I have said I live a few miles from Ferguson. Will have to head there this weekend to protest. I can protest with the best of them. I’ll be there this weekend.
LAC
@Goblue72: why? Take a wild guess.
SiubhanDuinne
@Belafon:
On my iPad the first digit is being drawn but without the serif (if that’s the right term for the little dangly tab on a 1). IOW, what should be comment 110 is displaying as l10.
Villago Delenda Est
@TS:
Well, they’re doing an incredibly shitty job of it, one that only reinforces the notion that everything they officially report is fiction.
The problem is, they know that their lies will be recirculated throughout wingnuttia and become “common knowledge”, much the same as Obama’s undying devotion to the Caliphate has.
BENGHAZI!
OGLiberal
@Amir Khalid: After reading (although haven’t found it outside of these comments) that Dorian Johnson confirmed that they were the folks in the store, it’s possible that could have been Brown. But I am 100% skeptical of all their claims regarding the shooting and I don’t even think the cop who did the shooting was aware of the incident in the store.
chopper
@Cacti:
which is funny, because according to the timeline the kid was shot very soon after the robbery. even assuming the clerk called the cops immediately, it’s not like there would have been a report filed and an APB (or whatever) out for the kid by the time wilson interacted with the kid.
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
Here’s the lawyer’s quote from the MSNBC story:
And, yes, the comments section at MSNBC is already filled with “he got what he deserved.”
Link attempt:
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/ferguson-police-name-michael-brown
Villago Delenda Est
@Tommy: Wish I could join you, but I’m a short 2000 mile walk from St. Louis.
Violet
@Belafon: Thanks! I think there might be an open BOLD tag somewhere that’s causing some problems. It’s only in this post–the one before and the one after are fine for me, both on phone and computer. Glad to know it’s not just me.
Bob In Portland
False flag.
SatanicPanic
@Villago Delenda Est: It’s a sign of the times that they didn’t get it. They’re running out of chances to use state power to throw their tantrums. Pretty soon all they’ll have left are terror campaigns.
Suffern ACE
@Xenos: Yep. Good lord. You can say “fog of war”, but if the police who shot him were apprehending him as a robbery suspect, they had ample opportunity to say that at any time during the past week. Its not as if the damn police chief wasn’t on the TV, giving interviews and press conferences. Now suddenly, we get to shoot anyone for jaywalking because there was a robbery in the neighborhood?
scav
Let us not forget that when possessed of such benign, unassailable and simply documented evidence supporting their reasonable and measured response, the Ferguson PD nevertheless sat on the results for days while letting the city spiral out of control because of their lack. Such consummate and assured professionalism should win them plaudits and supporters among fellow officers and local political leaders, neh?
Violet
I’ve been kind of mesmerized by this Tumbler “If They Gunned Me Down, Which Picture Would They Use” over the last few days.
libarbarian
Oh, nevermind. It’s apparently a hoax
Villago Delenda Est
@OGLiberal:
Given Brown’s lack of any trouble with the law before, I’m having problems even believing that new tale from the files of Boss Hogg.
The entire point of the robbery story is to give wingnuttia a “justification” for the entire incident in which Brown was murdered. “He was resisting arrest”. “He was disrespectful of a policeman”. “He was a suspect in a crime”. Anything but the truth…the kid was killed for failure to instantly obey a command delivered thusly: “Get the fuck on the sidewalk”.
JPL
This is from Lowery’s column in the Post…
So was there a robbery?
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):
Trolls gonna troll. Let’s not jump to the conclusion that this is anything more than that.
chopper
@OGLiberal:
i would figure, since he bumped into the two kids like 5 minutes after the robbery. it’s not like stealing a pack of cigars nets you an immediate city-wide APB right after the clerk calls 911, assuming he even called it in right away.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@libarbarian: I thought that the suggestion that this Nardi woman was the police chief’s wife had been debunked.
Tommy
@Villago Delenda Est: For me is is like 43 miles round trip. I am going tomorrow. This is not acceptable and I feel the need to protest a little.
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@SatanicPanic:
Sadly, after watching Trayvon Martin be prosecuted for his own murder, it’s hard for me to believe that the cop in this case will ever face trial, much less be found guilty. Thug stole cigars; cop killed thug; justice served. And all discussion of police overreaction or racism will be swept aside, because Thug Stole Cigars, Case Closed.
Tone In DC
@Ben Cisco:
I’d give more credence to the local cops and those (piss poor quality) photos if this weren’t just coming to light. I read a bit of the quotes from Freeman Bosley, and my suspension of belief wasn’t quite up to it.
I am biased , and I could be wrong about the cigar theft and the confession. I wouldn’t believe these county cops if they told me Michelle Obama is from Chicago.
JPL
@chopper: The clerk was calling 911 and trying to lock the door, when Brown intimidated him.
Suffern ACE
@Villago Delenda Est: Yeah. Except where did the “get the fuck on the sidewalk” come from?
cintibud
I am thinking that the shooter knew nothing of what happened in the convenience store when he shot Brown. The reason it took so long for this information to come out is that after days of frantic searching the video about a random robbery they really didn’t care about was looked at and it was “Holy SHIT! We’re off the hook!”
Nothing to do with why Brown was stopped
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): What photos are y’all looking at the convince you it’s not Brown? I honestly can’t tell from the blurry video stills at TPM and the widely publicized shooting scene photo.
JPL
@cintibud: 911 calls and dispatch calls would verify whether or not he new. I assume there would be police tapes indicating whether or not the officer received a description.
Suffern ACE
@cintibud: Maybe it took longer than usual to find the video because, well, the that was the store that got burned out.
cintibud
@JPL: I wouldn’t hold my breath until getting that info.
raven
@Betty Cracker: The one’s of him lying dead in the street. he has high top on and the dude in the store vid has those Adidas soccer flips.
SiubhanDuinne
@Tommy:
Good for you. Hope you’ll check in here from time to time. Stay safe.
OGLiberal
@Villago Delenda Est: All we can be sure of is that Brown was in the store….his friend’s attorney confirmed that. Now, whether there was a robbery or not or whether it was a case of shoplifting v. “strong arm” is a matter of he said/she said. Maybe the store owner was being a dick to Brown and his friend….who knows? But they were in the store and the vid caps show Brown (or what appears to be Brown) grabbing the shop owner’s shirt.
Again, even if we believe the shop owner’s description of the incident, still no reason to kill the kid. And it’s doubtful the cop who did it was responding to that incident. The report was written up by another cop who was sent to investigate who couldn’t find Brown or Johnson and who ID’d Brown after he was dead.
On reason to be wary of the shop owner’s description – why would to strong arm robbers be casually walking in the middle of the street in broad daylight minutes after they strong arm robbed a store in a town notorious for cop’s who racially profile blacks?
Something fishy…but he was in the store.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): I don’t know. We’ll see. The police would have released that video days ago if they thought it proved anything. And if the DoJ gets involved we might see some justice.
cintibud
@Suffern ACE: Now that should be easy to check
Keith G
The alleged theft from the convenience store is a real complicating issue.
If proven true, it will cast an incredible doubt on what would be the prosecution’s best witness in a case against a police officer.
chopper
@raven:
apparently he changed clothes in the 5 minutes between the robbery and his run-in with wilson. that’s an odd set of facts, innit?
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@JPL:
I can see another plausible explanation:
Brown and Johnson are in the store. Johnson tries shoplifting without Brown’s knowledge. Shopkeeper catches Johnson and threatens to call police. Brown assumes his buddy is being falsely accused and gets mad.
Villago Delenda Est
@Suffern ACE: That is one I picked up from some of the initial reports of the incident in which Brown was murdered. That Officer
KrupkeWilson communicated this to Brown and Johnson from his SUV.Villago Delenda Est
@Keith G: How convenient.
Sloane Ranger
@Bobby Thomson: Or that the Governor has surrendered to the mob who are now in control of the streets – hence the appearance of peace. Any crime or altercation committed by a black person against a white person or, indeed any crime committed against a white person where the skin colour of the suspect is not known will be cited as evidence of this.
Also, watch out for FOX or friends to interview a white female resident of Ferguson who will say she’s now scared to leave her home because some scary black kid looked at her in a way she didn’t like.
Betty Cracker
@raven: In the pictures I’ve seen, it looks like both have those multiple-strap high top sandals on, but it really is impossible to say for sure from the pictures I saw, especially the blurry-ass video stills at TPM. Should be something a forensics expert can figure out, though.
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@beth:
Look. I am not pissed at you. I AM pissed at the news media and 60% of white people who will now declare that Michael Brown’s murder was totally justified because he was involved in that incident at a convenience store, and every other issue will now be ignored because Thug. Clear enough?
Amir Khalid
@Bob In Portland:
Pah. More talking points frpm Moscow.
Keith G
@Villago Delenda Est: For someone.
Villago Delenda Est
@Suffern ACE: Ohh, snap!
OGLiberal
@Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): Especially if the cop who shot him didn’t know about the incident – which I’m betting he did not. That would blow the whole – “well, if he didn’t rob that store the cop would have no reason to stop him and the shooting wouldn’t have occurred” – which is probably not a valid argument because the cop likely was not responding to the incident (another officer was assigned). Then again, the people saying he deserved it probably believe he deserved itsimply because he may have stolen some blunts. (and because he’s not the right color)
Mandalay
@Betty Cracker:
No need – the forensic experts in this thread have already determined it wasn’t Brown.
Even though we have this:
dww44
@Iowa Old Lady: As Charles Blow said in his NYTimes piece yesterday:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/14/opinion/charles-blow-michael-brown-and-black-men.html?emc=edit_ty_20140814&nl=opinion&nlid=32631239&_r=0
They’re trying to do the same thing to Brown that they did to Trayvon Martin and others. Smear them good and there are far too many white folks who will cheer this on.
It would be really nice if some elected official called this out for what it is now and not later. In time to save that young man and his family his reputation, which is all that they have.
schrodinger's cat
@chopper: I wish I could have spent more time there.
Joel
@Cacti: that and about 100 pounds.
beth
@dww44: I think it’s probably too late for that. I said a few days ago that as soon as they released the info that the officer had facial injuries the case had become just like Trayvon Martin. By the way, will we ever get to see the officer’s injuries or hospital report? How come none of the witnesses have mentioned these injuries? This whole thing stinks and it’s just going to get stinkier. I’m sure by next week they’ll have the riots they so desperately want.
raven
@Betty Cracker: On the store shot there is one picture of the guy turning toward the door and it’s pretty easy to tell those are flips.
Burnspbesq
@Cacti:
OK, Crim Def Hat, riddle me this: is this enough to allow one cracker to hang a jury that is otherwise ready to convict?
Cacti
Also too, if Johnson is a suspect in a robbery and this video is the apparent smoking gun, why hasn’t he been charged.
All I see from that video is that a large man and smaller man have a scuffle. If it was a “strongarm robbery” as was alleged, the assailants sure do leave the scene at a fairly casual pace.
Violet
@raven: Just heard on my TV that it has been confirmed that the guy in the store video is Mike Brown.
raven
@Violet: I’ll defer to all the experts here.
Cacti
@Burnspbesq:
Certainly.
But the most critical piece of evidence is still outstanding: the medical examiner’s report. Two witnesses say that Brown was shot from behind. The report will corroborate or contradict those statements.
cckids
@Betty Cracker:
QFT
Chris Hayes, last night, had state senator Maria Chappelle-Nadal on, who admitted the problem with turnout, but also noted the issues with people who are working all day, have trouble with child care, etc, getting to vote. She said something like “on the first Tuesday in November, most of these people are worrying about how to get to work, how to pay the rent/mortgage, not getting to the ballot box”. And there is so much truth to that. When your nose is so embedded in the grindstone, it is difficult to see the bigger picture.
Not to mention, she also talked about how Democrats only come around at election time. She specifically called out the governor for this.
OGLiberal
@Cacti: That’s one of several reason why I’m open to this having been more of a misunderstanding that was interpreted by the shop owner and/or cops into something it wasn’t. Who knows…they could have paid for xx number of cigars, shop owner charged that they took more than they paid for, argument ensues, young, big guy gets pissed for being accused of stealing, loses his cool and grabs and shoves (but does not hurt) shop owner, then goes casually on his way, soon after confronted by a cop who was not responding to the store incident and who knew nothing about it.
OGLiberal
@Cacti: It seems to me – not based on any hard facts but on my experiences following the news – that cops get off on about 90-95% of the bad shit they get accused of, even if the evidence strongly points to wrongdoing. Shot in the back? All cop has to say is that he reached for his gun, was acting violently, and therefore the cop felt he was a threat to (white) society and, as a result, he had to shoot him to stop him from getting away and assaulting another (white) person. Guarantee he’ll get off – he may be relieved of duty but he’ll do no time, pay no fines.
Cacti
@OGLiberal:
And if he’s the sort of person who likes to casually steal cigars during trips to the market, it’s nigh impossible that he would have made it to age 18 without a criminal record as a black male in America.
All of this smells of a preemptive smear by the police department.
Violet
@cckids: If Democrats organized to have rides, child care, etc. on voting day they might find more people could vote. It’s all done by volunteers now on a very piecemeal basis. If you have good organization in your community it happens; if not, it doesn’t. I wonder if there’s a better way to do it.
I don’t know anything about Jay Nixon but he didn’t impress me yesterday. Doesn’t surprise me at all the Dems only show up at election time.
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: Did you watch the video or did your mind censor you from watching? You see, the propaganda worked. A month after MH17 came down and we still haven’t gotten info from the black box, the ATC recordings are still not released by the Ukrainian government, but look, over there, something else sparkly is attracting your attention. Down the memory hole.
Now you are part of the lie.
different-church-lady
@schrodinger’s cat:
Dude, you’re blowing the vibe here…
Violet
@Cacti:
It’s incredibly telling that most of the documents they’ve released have been about this “robbery” and not about the shooting. They wanted to deflect attention and they’ve succeeded.
raven
@OGLiberal: Yea, the guy in the picture may have only grabbed the guy half his size by the shirt instead of the throat.
Kay
@OGLiberal:
Right but 2nd degree robbery in Missouri is theft using force. That’s the distinction. It’s important. It takes it from property to threat to a person, which is the whole point and why it’s more serious.
If it’s him in the video and he touched the clerk in the course of an alleged theft they can say “suspect in robbery”
different-church-lady
@Burnspbesq: I disagree slightly. Ferguson will get an overhaul, there’s little doubt in my mind. The question is: will any other departments get the same before the next street execution takes place?
Because while I may strongly disagree with people who describe Ferguson as “typical”, it’s most certainly not a lonely outlier. A demilitarization will only go so far — systemic racism and a culture of belligerence are things just as important, if not more so.
raven
Glenn Greenwald Blames Ferguson Unrest On Israel
Violet
At this point I think Captain Ron Johnson could run for Governor of Missouri and win. He’s amazing.
scav
And despite all this, we are and still will be wrestling with a department that mis-managed the community and situation until the entire situation spiraled to the state we all saw by pulling out all the toys in the box and swaggering about. A police dept that has a record of bias, that’s apparently sued someone they mistakenly arrested for getting blood on their uniforms. Oh what square-jawed heros of respected law-and-order, what icons of the shining beacon of law and order that shines equally upon all. And that’s giving a token credence to their late homework assignment with the suspicious handwriting.
schrodinger's cat
@different-church-lady: I am not a dude, lady.
Betty Cracker
@raven: Consider the source.
different-church-lady
@different-church-lady: Correction: you were blowing what the vibe was before I read down the page…
different-church-lady
@raven: Please tell me that’s a different Ben Shapiro, please…
ETA: nope, it’s not, and I gave him a click.
different-church-lady
@schrodinger’s cat: Dude has gone unisexual.
Or so I assert.
schrodinger's cat
@different-church-lady: Sorry, that was not my intention. BTW I was referring to the cop in the riot gear, pointing the gun, not the one getting the selfie taken. Although, he too is Tunchesque.
Glocksman
@schrodinger’s cat:
In a lot (most? all?) of cities, the Chief of Police is appointed by the Mayor.
Sure, the cops do have physical fitness requirements, but I know for a fact that locally they can be waived once you’re on the force.
I saw a local cop who weighed more than I did at the time (300 lbs), was about 5’7 tall, and it wasn’t muscle.
Matt McIrvin
@Baud:
mclaren, of all people, acknowledged that this was an encouraging sign.
But I do agree with the people wondering about follow-through. Eventually these people are going to go back to being state highway patrol, and then what do St. Louis County and the city of Ferguson do?
schrodinger's cat
@Glocksman: May be, if all active duty cops were fit, they would not have to rely exclusively on their guns to do the policing.
OGLiberal
@raven: I’m pretty certain he’s grabbing the shirt. (and I can say that if the cops can say they’re pretty certain that’s Mike Brown – although it almost certainly is) Brown’s body language – they are only still shots – looks like somebody whose pissed off….like somebody who’s been wrongly accused of something.
Read somewhere else that the time stamp on the video capture is two minutes later than the 911 call log. Could it be that the shop owner called 911 before this incident at the door and that’s why Brown was pissed? And if the call happened before, would Brown and Johnson be casually strolling in the street if they actually robbed the place?
BruceFromOhio
I apologize if this is posted upthread, but Gaia save me, this shit is so fucking obvious I feel like Zach De La Rocha screaming “WAKE UP!” all the fucking way back in 1992.
Police: Teen Was ‘Primary Suspect’ In Robbery At Time Of Shooting – so now we just fucking shoot suspects, saves the law enforcement and justice systems money, don’t it? OK, maybe not.
Yeah, no fucking kidding, Captain.
demit
@SiubhanDuinne: Um, Australia has mandatory voting. If you don’t vote you pay a fine, which as I recall isn’t that onerous. But it serves to remind people that they do have some obligations as citizens.
Kay
@cckids:
The problem with the “too distracted to vote” (although I buy that) is state and national Democats can fix it. They can spend less on campaign ads and consultants and hire a bunch of people who make 30k as organizers.
They could hire an army. They have already done it. Obama did it.
These are the voters Democrats have to turn out. They can’t pay consultants hundreds of thousands and then rely on volunteers for the actual work.
That isn’t supposed to be our ethos.
You can’t skimp on the lowest level and then complain the work doesn’t get done.
Violet
Watched the press conference. Governor Jay Nixon is terrible. He even called Captain Johnson “Captain Jackson” as he was pointing right at him. In contract, Captain Ron Johnson is amazing. If he’s not already being targeted for bigger things, the Democrats are missing a huge opportunity.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Excellent points.
Mandalay
@cckids:
It took Nixon five days before he managed to drag his sorry ass down to Ferguson. So for anything less it is hardly surprising that Nixon is a no-show.
Apparently Nixon is term-limited, but if it wasn’t his career would be swirling round the bowl. He’s reminds me of Bush staring out the window on Air Force One, seeing but not comprehending what Katrina had done to New Orleans.
me
bro, black ppl don’t work for politico
Glocksman
@Violet:
Funny you should mention that.
I tuned to the local AM talk station and listened to Rush on the way to the bank today because I was curious to hear what that boil on the nation’s ass had to say about Ferguson.
He was on a roll about how Captain Johnson is guaranteed to be the next Governor of Missouri and that the Republicans probably won’t bother to nominate anyone to run against him.
I would give you the quote about ‘great minds’, but I’m afraid that you’d kick my ass. :)
FlyingToaster
@Belafon:
@Villago Delenda Est: @SiubhanDuinne:
The cut-off serif on the 1 in 00s is also on Firefox, and partially (stump serif) on Safari. In Chrome, the 1 is completely missing.
All on MacOS 10.9.4.
Something’s effing up a div margin tag, but I have no idea if an open bold or strong can even do that.
OGLiberal
I just read a timeline of events elsewhere, taken from the police report. It said Brown grabbed the shop owner by the shirt, left the store, then came back in – apparently in an intimidating way – put the box of cigars on the counter, then left the store for good?
Was anything even stolen?
Tom Q
OK, here’s my late take on this new wrinkle:
If the Ferguson police (esp. Officer Wilson) had thought of Brown as a criminal suspect, we’d have known about that days ago — maybe even at the beginning, but certainly during the point when they were being excoriated by bloggers and (eventually) mass media. It’s impossible to believe the fact that they released this today means anything but they only just found out about it. (That plus the fact Brown & Johnson were strolling home, clearly not expecting to be chased)
How’s this for a hypothesis?: Johnson’s been giving testimony over the past day or two. His lawyer and the interviewers have likely told him to give the full story and, whatever you do, don’t leave anything out that you can be nailed on later. So, he gave up what happened at the convenience story. And, investigations not being air-tight, this got out to someone cop-friendly, who passed it on to someone in Ferguson PD. The cops there whooped like it was Christmas, went searching for video, and retroactively elevated the minor incident into Major Crime.
This’ll be plenty for the right-wing blog set, who viewed Trayvon Martin as a Crip-in-training (and many of whom, by the way, have probably lifted a pack of cigarettes in their day — but that’s DIFFERENT!). But for anyone else, this doesn’t pass the smell test. Officer Wilson doesn’t seem like a cop investigating a crime (especially, as others have said, not bothering to take Johnson into custody for this important case). It’s what it seemed from the start: Wilson didn’t like Brown’s attitude, and he shot him.
How long can they get away with not releasing the wounds report?
Glocksman
@Violet:
Terrible he may be, but I’d trade him for Mike Pence in a heartbeat.
Violet
@Glocksman: Har har. Seriously, though? There has to be more to it than that. Limbaugh would not be happy with Ron Johnson as Gov. of Missouri so he had to be saying it sarcastically.
chopper
@Tom Q:
it smears the character of the primary witness against the cop. which i’m guessing is their primary motive here.
Betty Cracker
@chopper: I also saw a young lady interviewed who witnessed the incident from her balcony and also reported the the fatal shot was fired while Brown had his hands up. Do you reckon we’ll find out what color her countertops are eventually?
Suffern ACE
@OGLiberal: Attempted stealing?
SiubhanDuinne
@demit:
Yes, I addressed that in my response to Aimai at #93. I was not aware, and I apologise for my ignorance.
That said, and noting in the Wiki article the goodly number of non-despotic non-dictatorships that do have mandatory voting laws, I’m still not a fan of the idea. Seems to me there should be a right not to vote. Voting under compulsion strikes me as profoundly wrong. (Personally, I think people who don’t vote are stupid and short-sighted and deserving of contempt; I vote in elections at every level, including primary run-offs in off years.)
Anyhow, I think — as I said to Tommy upthread — that the whole question of improving voter turnout is an important conversation to have. And the issue of mandatory voting should certainly be part of that conversation.
burnspbesq
@Cacti:
True, but if there is even a hint of ambiguity in that report, the defense will hire multiple experts to pick it apart. I haven’t tried a case in a while, but my dim recollection is that if you’re the government, a battle of experts rarely goes well for you.
jc
I loathe most of what Hannity says on any given day. But there’s also something about his hairstyle that is especially creepy. It looks right at home in J. Edgar Hoover’s ideal America.
Glocksman
@Violet:
I’m positive he was, but the mere fact that he mentioned it means that he’s worried something like that might just occur.
As an aside, that pic of Cpt. Johnson embracing the protester was heartwarming and gives me hope that something good just might come out of this tragedy.
Cacti
@burnspbesq:
The family is also having a private autopsy done.
Amir Khalid
@Bob In Portland:
The investigators do have the black boxes; they got them weeks ago when the team from my country persuaded the separatists to hand them over. I presume, because the investigators have not complained of lack of cooperation from the Ukrainian government, that they did indeed get the ATC audio record and whatever else they needed. Even if Ukraine hasn’t been forthcoming, which I have not seen reported, the relevant ATC-MH17 conversations will be on the cockpit voice recorder.
I deduce, from the video’s reliance on already debunked talking points from Russia, that the battle to convince the world of the separatists’ (and Russia’s) innocence in the MH17 shootdown is not going terribly well. You have my sympathies.
Who is this Martin John fellow anyway? He sounds Australian. But I have not heard of him before, and his YouTube channel page doesn’t list any credentials. Is he a commentator on international affairs like David Icke?
Jay C
@FlyingToaster:
I’m only getting half of the first digit on the comment numbers as well (FF 31.0 on Dell notebook) – so not a platform problem (?) Also the comments-box typeface seems to have mysteriously enlarged.
Cacti
@Tom Q:
They’re waiting for the toxicology results (and probably praying that Brown had a joint sometime in the last month). I read that those could take up to 4-weeks.
Violet
@jc: Hannity’s hair is fake, right? It looks like it to me.
@SiubhanDuinne: Australia’s way of doing mandatory voting is pretty good. A small fine if you don’t vote but it’s not a big hardship. Just enough to remind people to vote.
One of the problems we have here is that there is so much freaking voting and it’s not all at the same time. Between local, state and national elections it’s crazy, and that doesn’t begin to include primaries and runoffs–all of which rarely coincide with any other voting so the people who show up are the hardcore voters.
And there are so many positions we vote for. People can’t possibly be well informed about all the candidates. They aren’t. And they don’t bother voting.
Violet
The Ferguson police are a bunch of lying liars.
SiubhanDuinne
@Violet:
Exactly, all great points and all things that I would support simplifying and streamlining.
Not that I expect to see any significant reform anytime soon.
SiubhanDuinne
@Violet:
You know, one of our common phrases around here is “You can’t make this shit up.” Well, I guess that phrase has lost all value, because it sure does seem that the Ferguson cops make shit up all the time.
Comrade Luke
It’s funny how the NYTimes took all day for the police action in Ferguson to make it to the top of the fold, but the fact that the kid is now “tied to a robbery” is already the main headline.
And by “funny” I mean “profoundly depressing”.
beth
Those absolute fuckers! The police chief just admitted that Wilson did not know that Brown was a suspect in the robbery when he stopped him. In other words, they released the video and info about the robbery for nothing (and also just polluted any jury pool, didn’t they?).
jon
If you treat the citizens as the Communists treated the Hungarians in 1956, don’t be surprised when your citizens think of you as the Communists of Hungary in 1956.
Needing to rule by fear rather than the consent of the governed is not the stuff of healthy governments.
raven
Chief says initial contact between Michael Brown and officer who shot him was unrelated to alleged convenience store robbery.
Villago Delenda Est
@Violet: Oh, horsehockey.
Brown was stopped for criminal activity: to wit, walking while blah.
Let’s get real here, people. We’re dealing with guys who get there ideas at the Klavern meetings.
raven
Villago Delenda Est
@Betty Cracker: The source is utter scum.
beth
And now USA Today is reporting that the officer who shot Brown left town a few days ago! What the fuck goes on in Ferguson?
me
St. Louis County exec wants to remove the local state attorney from the case after he complained about the county police being removed from Ferguson. Apparently, tear gas is only way to properly protect residents.
SatanicPanic
@beth: This place is a joke. Won’t release his name, release convenience store video “because of FOIA request”, then say he wasn’t stopped for that. Clowns.
Calouste
@BruceFromOhio:
As a corollary of that, states where the people are considered the enemy of the state, i.e. dictatorships, usually have para-military police.
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: Already debunked? Sorry, please tell me what was debunked. I’m guessing you will find out that someone like Kerry said something that you considered to be debunking, but what was the proof?
When was the last time it took a month to get information from a black box? Don’t confuse it with black boxes that aren’t recovered. If the black boxes were destroyed why didn’t they say that? Well, if you are suspicious that six days after that cop in Ferguson shot that kid that their little blame report was a CYA operation blaming the victim, then why do you give the US of A carte blanche with lack of evidence regarding MH17? Oh, you’ve moved on. Someone told you all Russian information was debunked so you’ll just focus on Ferguson while MH17 goes down the memory hole.
Now, as far as what has been debunked, the US never officially responded to the Russian radar, which came out a couple of days after the crash. Recall that a reporter asked the State Department spokesperson and she DIDN’T answer the question. Perhaps you can pinpoint the Russian radar being debunked. And, remember, debunking requires evidence. The best you’ve done so far was a story from The Daily Beast.
So you have no questions about why Ukrainian civil radar, military radar, US radar, US intel satellite pictures (which would show any contrail of a ground to air missile) or the black boxes have not been produced? No questions about why it’s taking so long?
Try this one: Ukraine has announced overnight that they destroyed a column of Russian armor moving into Ukraine. It made the front page of the NY Times. Can you show me any proof of this tank column existing, I mean, besides the word of the head of NATO or President Poroshenko?
Remember, everyone and their brother own phones with cameras, but no one seems to have taken a picture of all that flaming wreckage, just like no one took pictures of any BUK missile contrails. Watch what happens to the column of Russian armor story. It will disappear in a few days, to be replaced with another false story.
And you won’t say it was debunked because it will have disappeared down the memory hole.
SiubhanDuinne
@beth: How can that even happen? I swear to FSM, this feels more Through-the-Looking-Glass with every hour that passes.
me
A Guardian and a Telegraph reporters personally witnessed the APC (not tank) column entering Ukraine. Of course, I don’t expect you to except this answer as you clearly only listen to the Alex Joneses in your brain.
SiubhanDuinne
This is pretty good.
How we’d cover Ferguson if it happened in another country.
dslak
@me: You fool! Only RT can be trusted to give us the truth.
Glocksman
It’s somewhat OT, but I own a pair of Bates military boots similar to the ones worn by the St.Louis County Police in the pic above.
Not because I’m a wannbe cop or soldier, but because they’re both durable and damn comfortable if you are unfortunate enough to have to spend 10 hour days wandering all over a 1.1 million sq ft. warehouse.
Magnums and Bates hold up for far longer than any pair of Nikes I’ve ever owned and are well worth the price difference.
That said, when I was a cook I wore New Balance postal shoes.
Durable, and that non slip sole saved my ass from the hospital more than once over the course of my 10 year employment.
demit
@SiubhanDuinne: Sorry, yes as I continued to read the thread I saw that you had. I tend to always be catching up on my reading & threads are either finished or almost so, so I’m rarely here in real time to make a timely comment. I guess I can see what you mean about people being forced to vote…but still, I’d be curious to see what kind of governments we might get if we had more citizen participation. Better, I think. Oh well. Won’t ever happen here. Oligarchs wouldn’t like it.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: No questions about why it’s taking so long?
Just one example of a large Asian airliner – Asiana 214 crashed at SFO, a major US airport, not a war zone, and the plane was essentially intact. It took six months for the NTSB to issue a transcript from the cockpit voice recorder, and a year to issue a final report.
SiubhanDuinne
@demit:
No need to apologize, I do the same; I’m forever commenting on things that have already long since been answered. Didn’t mean to sound brusque.
I’d love to see more citizen participation, too, and I agree we’d have a very different governing class than we do now. I’d just like to see it encouraged and enabled rather than mandated. Sounds as though we’re pretty much on the same page.
However, if there were to be mandatory voting (which won’t happen), there would have to be universal voter access (which won’t happen). So there we are.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: We knew the cause of the crash immediately. What about the recordings from the air traffic controller? A month?
Keep treading water.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: Gee, Gin, on this crash of that UPS plane in Cincinnati they were able to get all usable information from the black box in a day.
Yeah, let’s just wait for a year.
dslak
Whenever Putin removes his shirt, I just simply cannot take seriously any expert analysis that contradicts him. I’m glad to see that I’m not alone in this.
mack
There may never be a way to determine what the officer knew and when. Chances are, if it went out over the radio (in my time, we did not have computers in the vehicle) he may or may not have even heard it. But neighborhood policing is different than “metro” policing. The officers generally have some knowledge of the areas’ trouble makers and they routinely let them know they are being closely watched. (not saying it’s right, just what happens) Maybe we will one day learn if this was a routine stop to intimidate and ultimately led to Mr. Brown being murdered. Things escalate fast sometimes. Lastly, if any officer in the country believes he has sighted a robbery suspect, he would approach with his weapon already drawn.
To me, none of this matters. What is most important is that this officer be held accountable for shooting an unarmed, fleeing suspect. Doesn’t matter how or why these two people crossed paths.
Cervantes
@Villago Delenda Est:
Utter scum?
Following the links, what I eventually found was a press release issued by the police, announcing that the chief was about to visit Israel to learn about terrorism, crowd control, etc.
Are you saying the press release is false? Or that I mis-read it? Or that the visit is irrelevant? (Thanks.)
Mike G
@Comrade Dread:
Truly amazing how showing empathy, respect, and a common humanity will tend to reduce tensions and open doors.
Too bad there are too many morons, with badges and without, who completely lack any such abilities in that direction. All they know is Hulk Smash.
A civil society would keep such people the hell away from weapons and political power.
Cervantes
@Betty Cracker: Consider what source?
Glocksman
@Villago Delenda Est:
True.
Though I have to give a guy I once saw credit for sheer guts who wore an ‘Original Boys in the Hood’ captioned t-shirt with a graphic of a Klan night rider under the caption.
There are a lot of areas that would have seen him mobbed and not all of them are black either, as the Klan hated Catholics at one time and Evanshell is still heavily RC and we have long memories.
Brutusettu
@Ben Cisco:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2725917/Ferguson-police-Officer-Darren-Wilson-cop-shot-dead-unarmed-teenager-Michael-Brown.html
khaki shorts in both, white/light colored shirt in both, red hat.
looks like sandals and socks in the video.
hard to tell what the summarily executed for jaywalking was wearing. Police Chief says the shooter didn’t know a black male was a suspect for something that happened a few moments earlier and a few blocks away.
Glocksman
When I was a kid, believing in the police was what I was taught by my parents as soon as I was old enough to understand.
I was frequently told to find a police call box (the closest one was on the then Washington Elementary School grounds) if I ever found myself needing help.
Sure, police callboxes are a quaint relic of pre cellphone days, but that early instinct to call the police is there.
In 99% of cases it’s still justified, but Ferguson is in the background making me wonder if it’s worth the risk.
lol chikinburd
So it’s official: the Ferguson shooting was a false flag to distract the U.S. public from the perfidy of the Ukrainian government and the West. Good to know. Thanks.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: I am confident of two things: 1 – in the fullness of time, the Dutch and/or Malaysians will issue a report, and 2 – you will not believe it.
Bob In Portland
@lol chikinburd:
This story was in the NY Times today.
Expect this story to disappear down the memory hole. It’s not being covered by any TV network as far as I can tell.
If the Russians rolled a column of armored vehicles which the Ukrainians destroyed, it’s a big story. Our next nuclear war has precedence over police shooting a teenager.
But it’s not a big story. It’s disappearing as we speak, just like Kerry’s absolute proof that the Russians and/or rebels shot down MH17. Down the memory hole. Glimpse it fast, because it’s going to be gone soon.