“Imagine what we would feel and what we would do if white drivers were three times as likely to be searched by police during a traffic stop as black drivers, instead of the other way around,” she said, “if white offenders received prison sentences 10 percent longer than black offenders for the same crimes, if a third of all white men—just look at this room and take one third—went to prison during their life time. Imagine that. That is the reality in the lives of so many of our fellow Americans & so many of the communities in which they live.”
So Hillary Clinton has (“finally”) spoken out on Ferguson. Mr. Charles P. Pierce (who linked the transcript) is not at all impressed:
… What she said appears to have been written by nine consultants, eight people from marketing, seven lawyers, six ESL valedictorians, and Mark Penn. She feels very bad about the stuff that happened, as stuff sometimes will happen, because it is stuff, and it happens. Or something…
Nia-Malika Henderson, at the Washington Post, thought more of it:
… Whereas most Democrats and Republicans, and eventually President Obama, addressed the militarization of the police, Clinton actually went there on an issue that most avoided: racism and the criminal justice system.
At her speech at the Nexenta OpenSDx Summit in San Francisco, she said “we cannot ignore the inequities that persist in our justice system.” And then she did what few of her prominent fellow white Democrats have done in the context of Ferguson–she acknowledged the well-known statistics that show that blacks get treated differently than whites when it comes to everything from traffic stops to sentencing. But rather than just listing the statistics, she got personal by asking whites to put themselves in the shoes of black Americans…
And Jamelle Bouie chose to go full-metal Slate contrarian:
… The few times President Obama has made serious comments on race, he’s been candid, personal, and conciliatory. He’s either tried to universalize his experience—as he did in his 2008 Philadelphia speech—or contextualize the particular experiences of black Americans, as he did in his 2013 remarks on the George Zimmerman verdict. Put simply, being black lets Obama empathize with black Americans in a way unique to his presidency. At the same time, it acts as a limit on what he can say. Or, as I noted on Tuesday, Obama can’t address racial issues without polarizing the public along racial lines. He tiptoed around Ferguson, but given the rancor caused by his comments on Henry Louis Gates’ arrest or Trayvon Martin’s killing, it was the smart path to take.
Clinton’s statement is neither candid, personal, or especially conciliatory. Instead, it’s a little blunt, and in a good way. She asks for understanding and doesn’t give her listeners a rhetorical escape. “Imagine that,” she says, pushing her audience to conjure a world where white men were targets for law enforcement, and where their lives were routinely derailed for trivial offenses…
… Clinton was talking to white people. And she was asking them, as white people, to show empathy and concern for the conditions of their black fellow citizens. I wouldn’t say this is unprecedented, but it is rare. Especially since there’s no attempt to deflect or blame black Americans for their own problems. Clinton doesn’t mention “black-on-black crime” or give a brief respectability lecture. She simply says, Look at how we treat them, and imagine if it were you.…
I report, you yell at me in the comments decide…
Baud
Can’t watch video right now. What was she wearing?
the Conster
That is an ugly ass suit. Go away Hillary.
Trentrunner
Oh, look: A Clinton being all things to all people.
Imagine that.
Seriously, though, glad she spoke up. But she (and her family) are really getting the stink of privileged elites all over them. (These remarks were given at some corporate compensated speech thingy. Blech.)
I don’t know if she has the political skills to get it off her.
MikeBoyScout
If HRC were to get elected it will matter less what she said about racial discrimination in 2014 than what she does about it.
LBJ sounded like a racist when he spoke on the topic. I’ll gladly take that given what LBJ accomplished.
srv
I guess it’s courageous to emote when you don’t need their votes anymore. Why won’t Hitlery stand up and be counted?
Pogonip
@Baud: An ugly suit. Seriously.
Mike in NC
But at least she knew not to wear a tan pantsuit in order to not give the MSM a case of the vapors.
JPL
What did Mitt say?
Did Hillary make a statement about Clemson’s 4th quarter defense?
Anne Laurie
@efgoldman: Last I remember, SiubhanDuinne was free on Saturday, Sept. 13. She’ll be staying with friends in Boston proper, IIRC. I emailed her that I would do my very best to get to a meet-up that afternoon/evening anywheres in the greater Boston vicinity, but her friends were probably much better able than I to suggest a good venue (since, I’ll admit, I get into ‘the city’ maybe twice a year, and usually not to eat).
If she/we are waiting to speak to her friends, we may not have a place or time until next week.
Feel free to chip in, SD, if you’re about! (Ditto, any other Boston-area Juicers who might be interested, or who’d like to offer suggestions.)
Baud
@Pogonip:
The Dems need a haberdasher.
Anne Laurie
@Pogonip: It is, I’ll agree, the sort of suit novelist Patricia Wentworth once referred to as “the kind of garment older women are pressed into buying if they don’t stand up to the clerk at the department store”.
One might make a joke that she wore it to distract attention from the President’s sartorial Tan-ghazi-gate, but it would be a very weak joke.
srv
Americans want a real man in the White House:
Keith G
Ya know, If we are going to examine every entrail splatter and every fecal deposit of HRC and crew from now til Nov. 2016, I am going to have to find me a volume meth dealer.
And I am not entirely sure what dog Charlie Pierce has in this fight anyway. His brand of self-aggrandizing snark is reaching it’s sell-by date.
Back to my Freaks and Geeks marathon…and wine…much wine.
JPL
@Baud: Just ask the pres for his opinion. I loved the latest tie and as far as I know, that hasn’t been criticized yet.
schrodinger's cat
@Baud: Indeed, the jacket looks like an improvised version of the top half of a pajama.
Dog On Porch
[I smell chum in the water]. I’m with Pierce.
HC has made tons of hay over the fact she has been unremittingly attacked by latter day Birchers before they were cool (i.e. took over the GOP).
But what accomplishments on behalf of the democratic party’s rank and file can she lay claim to?
Please weigh in the balance her aw shucks that’s why pencils have erasers weasel worded explanation of her role in unleashing the 2003 War before citing what serves to recommend her as the party’s 2016 nominee.
Baud
@srv:
Why should I care what some Canadian reject thinks?
Mike G
given the rancor caused by his comments on Henry Louis Gates’ arrest or Trayvon Martin’s killing
The same Teatards are riled up to rancor by the hue of his suit jacket or choice of mustard. It’s not about the content of his speech.
schrodinger's cat
I grilled some chicken thighs this evening and some veggies. Plus, watching Yes Minister on DVD, just completed the first season. It is witty, love the British sense of humor, the dialog is crackling.
Anne Laurie
@Keith G:
Isn’t it about time we Extremely Pasty People engaged in some honest self-criticism, among our own kind?
(/snark)
NotMax
Well, she strung together a mess o’ words.
Pull the string and she’ll do it again.
Suppose that “Ich bin eine Schwarze” didn’t test well.
Mike in NC
@srv: Thanks for sharing the brilliance of your idol.
Bruce Baugh
I’m with Bouie on this one. She should have spoken up sooner. But this is good solid stuff, delivered in a way that may really connect with people we need on our side, not just idling around.
Poopyman
@efgoldman: What? The PUMAs can’t be on the other foot?
(I agree, FWIW)
schrodinger's cat
Caturday thread deserves a kitteh.
gogol's wife
@efgoldman:
Yes.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
Meh.
(Caveat – I just read the transcript.)
It was a careful statement – about what I would expect from someone who knows they are polarizing and who wants to be sure s/he keeps his/her options open.
Also, we haven’t received any word on the results of the investigations by the FBI and DOJ. It’s not unreasonable to wait until a solid, impartial investigation has been completed before making specific statements about what needs to be done.
If it gets people in the majority to think about putting on some other shoes, that’ll be great.
Why it took her two weeks to say that? I dunno. Maybe it shows that she’s not interested in driving the news these days – maybe she thinks there’s plenty of time for that…
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who still thinks she won’t run.)
Just One More Canuck
Since this is an open thread, I want to thank the person who mentioned Petfinders 2 or 3 weeks ago (sorry I cant remember who it was.. We found our new cat today, Elsa, a three month old cutie, after losing our much beloved Scully last year
Mike E
Scanning of my photo archives is nearly completed…all I have left are odds and ends: family sent photos (w/o negatives) and curio (announcements, baseball cards, postcards etc).
Next: assembling a mondo album of the best prints; canning/recycling all the fluff, then, storing all the keepers in some sort of sane order. This project was way overdue )-:
gian
A credible opponent who hasn’t run a campaign catering to “hard working white people” will set up an interesting primary.
She needs to stop being inevitable and start earning votes
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Keith G:
Because it’s not just Southerners who never stopped fighting the civil war?
Keep being offended. It hurts our feelings soooooo much.
KG
I’m trying to figure out a reaction to her statement. I can’t think of anything. It just seemed… Safe. An attempt to triangulate but without first laying out the other positions.
2016 is going to be so incredibly disappointing for everyone
Howard Beale IV
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I hope she doesn’t run-the last thing we need is another neoliberal political dynasty.
raven
woof
satby
Friends coming tomorrow and the house looks like Yucca flats after the blast. And I have to remember to get the bird’s nest out of the gas grill so we can cook out tomorrow. Been a long time since I actually had company. Been cleaning and I think it’s gonna get finished just as they pull in the driveway.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@KG: What would you have liked her to have said?
askew
This has always been the problem with Hillary:
Bill and Obama’s statements may have been written by consultants, etc. but they have the political skill and charisma to convince voters that what they are saying are words straight from the heart. Hillary just doesn’t have that skill. If the GOP nominates someone with more charisma, skill and warmth, we could be in trouble.
satby
@satby: because I just refuse to parse to death every utterance of someone who hasn’t declared a run 2 years before the freaking election. Jayzus
Bill D.
@satby: Leave it there. Birds nest soup!
James E. Powell
@Poopyman:
How long have you been waiting to use that one?
Cervantes
@Baud:
Another haberdasher.
Harry Truman was one, for a year or two.
SiubhanDuinne
@efgoldman:
Last I heard it was going to be Saturday 13 September, time and location TBD.
Question about BJ meetup protocol: I will be staying with good friends in Boston and would very much like to invite them to come to the BJ gathering. Honestly, I don’t even know if they’d be interested — they may be only too glad to be rid of me for an evening — but they are like-minded people (my friend John is a frequent commenter on Charles Pierce’s site). Anyhow, what does Miss Manners say? May I ask them to join us, or is it Juicetarians only?
Regardless of the answer, I am excited about meeting people I know only through their nyms, both in Alexandria this coming Tuesday and in Boston on the 13th.
satby
@Bill D.: LOL. Which would beat the turkey burgers my friends are insisting on bringing. Evidently Cajun crab cakes and fire roasted chicken sausage is too daring.
Mike E
Whoa…the ‘Noles secondary musta got raptured on that last play.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@askew:
Who is this charismatic, skillful, and warm GOPer? Has it been spotted in the wild? Further, no matter who the Democrats nominate in 2016, that person is likely to be less charismatic and a less dynamic speaker that the last two Democratic presidents. They set a pretty high standard and not many can approach it.
KG
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): honestly, I don’t know. She’s in a weird spot where she’s not a government official and she’s running but not running, so suggesting policy is tough. Really, I almost think it’d’ve been better if she didn’t say anything. Of course, she’d be asked, and she’d have to have some sort of answer, and I would think something like “Michael Brown’s death is a tragedy, his family, the people of Ferguson, and all Americans deserve a thorough investigation. We must have an open and honest national discussion about the underlying issues…” It’s fluff, but at this point and given her current position, fluff really is all she can offer.
satby
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): this is where we get to hear about O’Malley again
SiubhanDuinne
@Anne Laurie:
That, in a way, seems to answer my question! I will ask my friends for suggestions (I know John at one point said something about making sure I go to his “favorite pub,” so maybe we can combine the events).
He lives in Watertown/Waltham. Not sure where the pub is. Is that a reasonably convenient area for most people, or should I ask him to suggest someplace more central? (Bearing in mind that I really don’t have a clue about Boston-area geography or neighborhoods.)
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
So, when Obama FINALLY came out about the violence in Ferguson, Hillary somehow what? WENT BACK IN TIME TO SAY IT FIRST?
Jesus.
Anne Laurie
@KG:
If HRC runs, continues to hold a commanding lead over the various GOP loons’n’luzers now on offer, and cruises to a win? I think I will be able to manage my disappointment.
If she doesn’t run? I’ll be too busy scrambling to GOTV for whichever Dem does end up with the nomination, even if that Dem is someone — Corey Booker? Zephyr Teachout? — whose political positions or skills have severely underwhelmed me.
Either way, I don’t think anyone on our side of the aisle will have time for “disappointment” before 2017!
Kazanir
I don’t really understand Pierce’s analysis. The quoted paragraph certainly doesn’t read like something that a consultant would write. More specifically, I think if Mark Penn found himself in a room with that paragraph he might spontaneously combust. Addressing the harsh reality that the statistics present is really important and while I’m skeptical Hillary would get all that much done on the subject (and she has a mediocre track record on this sort of thing) the remarks themselves are solid.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@efgoldman: To be fair, FDR would be more likely to roll through the door than walk.
KG
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): the Dem nominee need not be as dynamic as Clinton or Obama. It’s not like Republicans have offered anyone close to Reagan since 84. But the nominee does need to have more life than a Disney animatronic statue.
rikyrah
19 days to say that?
ok.
What a profile of courage.
satby
@Kazanir: because for a certain subset of the left, there’s nothing Hillary Clinton could possibly say or do that would be acceptable.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
Dayum.
Kazanir
I guess. I mean, I would probably count myself as part of that subset of the left most of the time!!! But a spade is a spade. If HRC keeps saying this sort of thing I would imagine she would become more palatable to that particular subset. Assuming they are semi-rational actors, anyway…
PurpleGirl
@the Conster:
@Baud:
@Pogonip:
OMG, that is one ugly outfit. When the hell did she buy it — 40 years from Sears?
First the print isn’t very distinct, the black piping does not contrast nicely with the print or add to the print. The double-breasted buttons emphasize her now royal mono-bosom and not in a good way. She really needs to study what Queen Elizabeth wears — one color, not too much contrasting detail in the design, smoother lines in the seams. I know I’m gonna get jumped on, but that piece of cloth looks like something a farmer’s wife would have worn during the depression. Not at all sophisticated and elegant.
Anne Laurie
@SiubhanDuinne:
Please do!
If they’re shy, tell them there will be at least one non-Juicer at the gathering, since my Spousal Unit (Stuart) will be ferrying me there. So they can just look for the bearded gentleman with a strong resemblance to Bert Lahr as the Cowardly Lion, and hide behind him.
Seriously, some of the best conversation I had at the Waltham BJ Meetup last year was with people the party planners would call “plus ones” — including Mrs. EFGoldman!
SiubhanDuinne
@efgoldman:
That is kind of my response to people who are down on Michelle Nunn for Senate in GA because she’s not liberal enough. For Pete’s sake, does anyone seriously think we have a hope of an Elizabeth Warren in Georgia, let alone that candidate getting the nomination and winning the general? As long as she has a (D) after her name, I’m happy. And if she wins over Mittens Wannabe David Perdue, she will flip the seat and help ensure a continued (maybe even stronger) Dem majority in the senate.
Similar arguments on behalf of gubernatorial candidate Jason Carter.
satby
@Kazanir: I think I see your mistake there:
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@PurpleGirl: She has always dressed poorly. I sense that she may be a person who has always thought that fashion is frivolous.
rikyrah
As for Clinton’s ‘statement’ being so powerful versus the President…
The President doesn’t have to say anything..
He got the FBI, DOJ and the Attorney General to Ferguson.
THAT makes his statement.
askew
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
Hillary is the least charismatic and coldest of potential Dem candidates. She is much more like Gore or Kerry and that worries me. We need the youth vote to be enthused. They aren’t going to be excited by Hillary who is old, dull and confirms every stereotype of politicians.
Cruz is batshit but he has charisma and IT factor. And he isn’t 69 years old. We could be looking at a Kerry/W contrast here and that is very worrisome.
SiubhanDuinne
@efgoldman:
Ha! Same as in Atlanta! (Also too, Indian trails. And the meanderings of the Chattahoochee. Okay, and the foothills of the Appalachians. But mostly cows.)
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
Also, too, good working white Americans.
Anne Laurie
@Just One More Canuck:
Kitten! Congratulations!… (send pics!)
PurpleGirl
@Just One More Canuck: What shelter did you find Elsa at? Would it be Cassie’s Kitten Kastle in Danielson, CT? If it was, yay, because I support the Kitten Kastle and love Cassie. And, yes, Elsa is a sweetie. Either way, may you enjoy Elsa for many years.
askew
@satby:
Put me on ignore then. I’ll just say that O’Malley spoke out sooner and while he also said a bunch of nothing it didn’t sound like it was written by a team of consultants after pouring over focus group results. And he never ran away from reporters asking about Ferguson, unlike Hillary.
And a Hillary/2016 post is the perfect place to comment about O’Malley.
Chris T.
@rikyrah: Those who can, do. Those who cannot, speechify?
Anne Laurie
@satby: Sounds like every party I’ve ever thrown — have fun!
And thanks for the pics, you saved me trying to find something worth the pixels in my (currently even more sad & overrun than usual) “garden”!
raven
@SiubhanDuinne: It was rampaging bulldogs!!
askew
@Anne Laurie:
If Hillary is our nominee, I’ll be disappointed because she is a huge step backwards from our last 2 Dem presidents and as a woman I wanted our first female president to be extraordinary like Obama was for the first AA president and not just adequate.
Chris T.
@askew:
He does? Reagan had charisma; even when he was saying stupid or annoying things, he just sounded and looked likeable. But Cruz reminds me of the cariacture of the “Effete Elite” that the wingnut radio used to talk about. Sure, he says red-meat conservative-base stuff, but he looks like a New England Upper Crust Blue Nose Never Worked A Day In His Life type.
satby
@Anne Laurie: oh good, you got them. These people have known me for 32 years, so they know exactly what they’re walking into!
Cervantes
@efgoldman: Some sports figure, wasn’t it? Rick Pitino? Bet he still thinks we’re all lousy.
SiubhanDuinne
@Just One More Canuck:
Congratulations to you and Elsa. Pictures?
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
I do wonder, if Hillary runs and wins the nomination, how many people will jump on the bandwagon and become Hillbots? How many will be reverse PUMAs? And how many will do what many if not most Hillary primary voters did and just support the nominee?
I don’t see the point of slagging HRC at this time; I have my own issues with her but I could end up choosing her over whoever else ends up running in the primary. I’ll have to see who the candidates are before I nail my colors to a mast.
satby
@Chris T.: Cruz only has charisma if you’re a teabagger.
askew
@Chris T.:
Really? I don’t get that vibe from Cruz at all. To me, he seems like the most electable GOP as a personality. It’s too bad for GOP that he is so crazy.
The GOP bench is looking pretty thin overall. They have Paul, Cruz, Rubio, Portman and Kasich. All of other governors are pretty much out due to corruption/legal issues.
Anne Laurie
@SiubhanDuinne:
Ah. The last “Boston” meetup was actually at a pub in Waltham — there’s a bunch of great places to eat& drink along Moody Street. Watch City Brewery, while a great place to consume, turned out to be less-than-optimal for conversation (there’s no insulation on the wooden walls/ceiling & it got very noisy, even on a weekday evening).
Commentor The Conster, IIRC, suggested Solea Tapas, which is a bit pricier. But I’d love the chance to check it out, and a Saturday meetup might be a better fit for people who choose to eat in advance & just share an app or nurse a drink…
lamh36
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): I’d bet you that there will NOT be a reverse PUMA effect, nor will Obots become Hillbots. I suspect the energy to go back to pre-Obama levels. I expect HRC to get “normal” Clinton-like Dem numbers with an increase in women voters and an increase in anti-Obama whites.
I don’t expect the “record-breaking” intensity of HRC campaign, even with the possibility of another “historic” Presidency.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I don’t see anything here to move me from my hateless Clinton skepticism. I don’t see anyone on the D side that I can see making a serious challenge to her. I think she would beat Ted Cruz like a rented mule, and Christie, Ryan, whoever almost as badly. I would feel a whole lot better about her if I saw some of that legendary Clinton magic making a big impact in the midterms. Can they move people in places like Kentucky and Georgia? I gather they’re not much of a factor in Arkansas anymore?
Baud
@lamh36:
The intensity will also be down because we won’t be ending Bush’s disaster of a presidency.
Yatsuno
@efgoldman: Opiejeane brings her husband all the time.
@askew: Have you heard him talk? He has this high pitched whiny voice that I can’t imagine America listening to for the next four years. Plus he does have an eligibility problem.
SiubhanDuinne
@raven:
45-21, very nice.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@lamh36:
I think that is likely to be correct. OTOH, I am wondering about it at a micro level – commenters here on this blog.
Belafon
As I commented on Thursday when Daily Kos brought this up, Clinton brought the number of white politicians speaking on this issue up to at most two. I have to give her props for that, and I thought she did a good job of framing the discussion.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
What was it like in 2008? I wasn’t here then.
lamh36
@Baud: yeah, well that too.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@askew:
He is an aging Young Fogey.
SiubhanDuinne
@Anne Laurie:
Thanks. I’ll find out and let you know.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Baud: My memory, such that it is, is that HRC primary voters for the most part got behind Obama’s candidacy. Exceptions existed, of course.
Carolinus
@Poopyman:
The PUMAs are actually still out there. I’ve noticed an uptick recently in their advancing hawkish foreign policy critiques against the admin, apparently thinking it helps the interests of their future nominee. Taylor Marsh being one example.
Botsplainer
@srv:
“And as the speech concluded, he’d grab his nut sack and waggle in while guffawing ‘Suck it libtards! The poor and uninsurable are losers and need to just get right with Jesus and die’.”
SiubhanDuinne
@efgoldman:
I haven’t yet asked my friends what their fave place is, but they are huge music lovers (BSO, Boston Chamber Players, A Far Cry, etc.) so might well patronize a place that supports local musicians.
John, BTW, is also a former classical radio person. That’s how we met, back in the early 1970s, at a Minneapolis meeting of the Music Personnel Conference (classical music announcers/producers from NPR stations around the country).
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
I can’t imagine not supporting the Democratic nominee. No purer example of raw ego and privilege, if you ask me.
Anne Laurie
@PurpleGirl: As a quilter (or at least a quilting fabric collector), I have a soft spot for feedsack prints. But I have to agree that you’re right, it’s not a good look in a suit or on HRC!
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Baud: Agreed on both counts.
Dog On Porch
@Anne Laurie: Anne: you’re enshrined in my blogger hall of fame as the smart and generous writer you are. But– by my political lights– anyone prepared to disregard Clinton’s decision making circa 2003 is kidding themselves. Ask yourself, if Cheney dropped dead tonight, would HC have to say about him? Recall that Bill once eulogized Nixon as the man who taught him what it meant to be an American.
Belafon
@Baud: Democrats and their “principles”, the kind that get Christie elected governor, Lieberman reelected to the Senate, and keep them at home during the midterms because it doesn’t matter as much.
I tend to be bitter on this point because of the view I have from Texas.
Anne Laurie
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
Yep. From that segment of the upper-middle-class, Midwestern respectable churchgoing demographic who feels that paying attention to one’s looks would indicate one wasn’t really serious about one’s mind. Or as the breed was once known, a bluestocking.
She really needs to overcome her pride & hire a decent stylist, but she’s reached an age and stage where the tendency is to say, “Screw it, either ‘they’ can look past my appearance or ‘they’ can kiss my saggy white… foot.” I can sympathize, for reasons.
Belafon
@Dog On Porch:
Answer me this: If she’s the nominee, which Republican would you choose over her?
ETA: Don’t take this as ignoring what you asked. Take it as combining that with all the other information we have to process when choosing a president.
askew
@Yatsuno:
The Dems would never raise an eligibility issue against a GOP candidate. Heck, they even passed a resolution saying McCain was eligible to be president and there is a strong case that he really isn’t.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Dog On Porch:
HRC vs. Cruz? HRC vs. Walker? HRC vs. Santorum? I know who gets my vote.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@askew:
No, really, there isn’t.
Belafon
@efgoldman: OK, that made me laugh.
jurassicpork
Be the first to fund my Indiegogo campaign for my upcoming novel, Tatterdemalion. I’ve got an agent lined up, I’ve got the voiceover artist for the trailer on standby and I know where to publicize it. All I need is the funding. Look, I know I didn’t shoot an unarmed black teen or fake cancer or getting stiffed on a tip but this great novel deserves some funding.
askew
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
Yes, there really is. McCain was born in the Panama Canal at a time before being born overseas to American citizens still made you a natural citizen. Now, I think if it went to the Supreme Court, they’d rule McCain is still eligible. But, the argument is stronger than the one for Cruz or Obama’s birther nonsense.
satby
@efgoldman: shit, are they running? I may have to reconsider.
mclaren
@efgoldman:
Not Lincoln??? Where’s the love for Abraham Lincoln?????
Zombie Abraham Lincoln for president! It’s a WINNER!
That’s a Futurama episode I’d like see: Zombie Abraham Lincoln vs. the Head of Richard Nixon for president. With the headless clone of Agnew as VP…
SiubhanDuinne
@Anne Laurie:
I have a recollection of a Vanity Fair (?) photo spread and cover story on HRC several years ago — I think maybe Annie Leibovitz was the photographer — and I have to say, she looked just beautiful. Not sure she would want to keep up that level of maintenance all the time (and as a woman of similar age, even a few years older, I completely support the “screw-it” option), but if it makes a significant difference electorally, she might want to bring in a professional consultant for the duration.
Hal
Meh. If there is one thing that will forever keep me pushing that lever for HRC it’s the Supreme Court. Even if it’s simply to maintain the 4 more Liberal justices, and on the chance that someone like Thomas or Kennedy or even Scalia might retire I think it’s worth it. Who knows? Maybe Roberts will get an offer too good to pass up from one of the corporations he’s determined to make a person, and then HRC could put Elizabeth Warren in charge of the SC.
KG
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): HRC vs JEB! is more realistic. Which I think explains my earlier statement of premature disappointment
mclaren
Don’t you love it when pols ask white people to show empathy and concern for the victims of their systematic societal brutality?
Yes, Hillary, we should also show empathy and concern when black people get beaten like dogs by muggers with badges while we tiptoe by, careful not to get any of that icky blood on our expensive shoes.
I wonder if Hillary will ask us to show empathy and concern for all those women who get raped in dark alleys, because rape is so terrible. And the folks who sidle up close and capture the rape on their cellphones so they can watch it later, they should show especial empathy and concern. Particularly when they hold down the girl while she’s getting raped.
And when the Supreme Court finally legalizes indentured servitude (AKA slavery) for undischargable debt, we should all be sure to show lots of empathy and concern for the people who get dragged out of their homes screaming and clapped into irons and branded and taken away to work farms by corporate bounty hunters…
Empathy and concern, folks. That’s the key. Make sure you show lots of empathy and concern for your victims. And hey! Who’s on Dancing with the Stars tonight?
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@askew: The legal change was retroactive. And being stronger than the Cruz or Obama attacks doesn’t mean much.
Suzanne
I think picking on HRC for this is stupid. Like it or not, the members of the privileged classes only tend to change once they are persuaded by other privileged people. This has been true for pretty much forever, and that’s why the social movements that welcome support from the privileged groups tend to be more successful. So HRC, a white person, was encouraging other white people to be empathetic. I really think everyone who is giving her a hard time about this is being ridiculous. What the fuck more do you WANT?!?!
And the snark about her fucking CLOTHES is ridiculous. You know I was just commenting earlier this morning about how the fashion snark that will follow her will be constant and idiotic and insufferable. Didn’t expect it to be here. Especially from a group of people defending Obama’s tan suit. FFS.
Belafon
@mclaren: I almost took this comment seriously.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Suzanne: Obama’s tan suit was perfectly reasonable. Not something I would wear in a courtroom – nor, I suspect, would Obama. HRC’s thing was horrible.
Suzanne
@askew: Criticizing a woman for not coming across as warm and likeable enough is almost certainly a pretty gendered expectation, and I’d sure appreciate it if Democrats didn’t spread it.
I don’t need a girlfriend. I don’t need a drinking buddy. I don’t need a mom. I don’t need a wingman. I don’t need a priest. I NEED A FUCKING CAPABLE, SMART PRESIDENT.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Belafon: A sign that you may have had too much to drink.
mclaren
@KG:
LOL!
Yeah, because the Bush name is pure political Gold in these United States nowadays.
Can’t you just see the campaign commercials?
[VOICE OVER] Four more YEARS!
[Photos of Iraq vets mutilated and crawling along the dirt in Iraq with their intestines hanging out while they scream for a medica]
[VOICE OVER] Four MORE years!
[Photos of stock market collapse of 2008, people getting evicted from their homes, factories closing, homeless former middle-class people sitting by the highway holding up cardboard signs reading WILL WORK FOR FOOD]
[VOICE OVER] FOUR more years!
[Footage of Bush crawling around under his desk in the Oval Office snickering “Where are those WMDs? They must be somewhere around here…”]
[VOICE OVER] FOUR MORE YEARS OF BUSH AS PRESIDENT!!!
[Footage of Dubya gibbering “I know what it’s like to have to put food on your family” and “Most of our imports come from overseas” and “Our enemies never stop thinking of ways to hurt us, and neither do we.”]
[LOGO ONSCREEN] THIS COMMERCIAL BROUGHT TO YOU BY DEMOCRATS FOR HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT
Oh, I sooooooooooooo hope the Repubs run Jeb for president. That would be so sweet. Please, pretty please, pretty please with a cherry on top…
gwangung
@Belafon: However, mclaren should take her own advice and not get off so much on bashing who she perceives as the enemy.
Dog On Porch
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Point (as always and perennially) taken.
Still, if you were a a citizen of a deep blue state like California, would you cast your 2016 vote for HC? If so, why?
Belafon
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): More likely not enough.
mclaren
@Belafon:
Who is on Dancing With the Stars is serious business, buddy. You don’t joke about that stuff. Not on this forum.
mclaren
@Dog On Porch:
Fer cripes sake, do you even have to ask?
HRC may be a vicious thuggish corrupt corporate shill who never saw an endless unwinnable foreign war she didn’t like, a wardheeler deluxe who adores Orwellian panopticon surveillance and the grotesque East-German-style police state society that goes with it…but, c’mon! People! The Republican alternative is going to be so much more horrific that there’s just no choice.
magurakurin
@efgoldman:
I’d go with Lincoln
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): So what? Does it fucking matter? REALLY?!?!
For god’s sake, we are about to be treated to months of blah blah pantsuits, blah blah fat, blah blah cankles, blah blah iron my shirt. It makes me want to put on some fucking leopard-print jogging, go out in public, and fart on everyone.
Women in politics can never win. Palin looked good but was TOO into her clothes, and wanted to spend money on them! HRC’s not into her clothes enough! FLOTUS wore a dress without sleeves! God. Spare me. You would think this was the goddamn VMAs, not, you know, something that actually MATTERS in a measurable way to the country and the world.
max
@askew: Yes, there really is. McCain was born in the Panama Canal at a time before being born overseas to American citizens still made you a natural citizen. Now, I think if it went to the Supreme Court, they’d rule McCain is still eligible. But, the argument is stronger than the one for Cruz or Obama’s birther nonsense.
He was born to TWO American parents, and the law at that time made it automatic. (It was whether or not a person with ONE American parent was a citizen that was at issue before the change in the law in ’65.) Additional bonus point: he was born on base, I believe, and inside the zone. The zone was an extraterritoriality granted to the US, making it US territory. So McCain was born of two citizen parents in American territory. (And Obama was born in an American state to one citizen parent.)
Neither of those cases that Orly Taitz filed in 2008 had a toe, much less a leg, to stand on.
max
[‘And that was under the law at the time.’]
mclaren
@efgoldman:
Especially when I say things like “The president of the united states has to obey the constitution” and “abandoning the rule of law is a short road to barbarism,” as I have so often.
That kind of stuff is just…so…ridiculous.
I mean, honestly. Who could listen to that kind of lunatic gibbering with a straight face?
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Dog On Porch:
Primary or general election? In the primary, I don’t know. I am not an HRC advocate. In the general, I think my answer is obvious. She will be okay at worst and that is vastly better than any GOP candidate can manage.
Belafon
@Dog On Porch: Yes. Just as I will, in Texas, a state that won’t go for a Democrat until we figure out how to get Latinos to register and vote. Protest vote time is in the primaries.
Anya
I am with Charles Pierce on this. Also, too…it’s too little too late.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Suzanne: Because people do judge on appearances. Because some people actually are interested in fashion. As an architect, does it matter if a building looks good as long as it serves its purpose? If so, why?
Belafon
@Anya: Why? Because the race war was decided at the end of Brown’s funeral?
mclaren
@Anya:
Too late indeed. In these late late days of Weimar America, the best we can hope for is someone who dithers and dallies harmlessly before the big crackdown, the Reichstag fire that requires suspension of all remaining laws “for the duration of the emergency.”
Source: “The Latin Americanization of U.S. Police Forces,” Cosme Caal, Counterpunch website, 27 August 2014.
Suzanne
@efgoldman: I don’t own anything leopard-print. I’m an architect, FFS. Branching out for us is wearing GRAY, or if we’re feeling really crazy, KHAKI. But I will buy the tackiest thing I can find, if we could all just get over this bullshit that what women who are supposedly in the running for positions of great importance, literally making decisions about life and death, matters even a little bit.
Quite frankly, it’s pretty disappointing to see this level of clothes snark, considering how much we object when the other side does it.
mclaren
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
Oh, c’mon, what you really mean is: Hillary needs a color consultant. Someone to make sure she’s not wearing Autumn when Summer would be more appropriate. You know, like what Naomi Wolf did for Al Gore…
Oh…wait…
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@mclaren: Nope.
gwangung
@Anya: Meh. If there’s anything I’ve learned, is that America hates any politician that tries to lead. At best, they’ll tolerate a politician that gets ahead of the crowd, before the crowd realizes where exactly it’s going.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@gwangung:
Pretty much.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): The building’s purpose, whatever that is, is served by its aesthetic. How it looks should convey what it means. So no, some buildings should not look good. Cases in point: Pompidou Centre by Piano and Rogers, or Jewish Museum by Libeskind.
Fashion at its most creative, and avant-grade, can express something about the designer and the wearer. But HRC, as someone who is not in the fashion industry, IS NOT ATTEMPTING THIS. No politician is. She is probably trying to find something that flatters her body, conveys a socially acceptable level of formality, expresses some degree of her personality and her identity, and not be bored because she has to do this all the time, and it gets tiring, and there aren’t always a lot of options, and sometimes you just want to say FUCK IT.
So she’s not a clothes horse. This seems to be a greater expectation for women than for men, and that is pretty patently unfair. So we can all perpetuate that, or we can NOT.
KG
@mclaren: what makes you think the GOP base won’t fall in line if Jeb us deemed the front runner (next in line)? Seriously, they bitched and moaned about McCain and they bitched and moaned about Mitt, yet both won the nomination. As for your proposed ad, that would just give Jeb the chance to make a speech about how he’s his own man and obviously his ideas must be good because his opponents can’t talk about them, all they can do us criticize his brother (who by the way hasn’t been president for almost eight years).
mclaren
@KG:
What makes me think the GOP base won’t fall in line behind Jeb? Well, I dunno, maybe the fact that they’re sentient…
Who knows? They might. All the better for Democrats. If anyone seriously thinks another Bush has a chance at the White House after what the Drunk-Driving Coke-Snorting C-Student did to this country for eight long years, I’ve got a fabulous deal for you on a bridge across the Hudson you can pick up dirt cheap.
Dog On Porch
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): African or European sparrow? I meant the 2016 presidential election, Einstein.
max
@Suzanne: This seems to be a greater expectation for women than for men, and that is pretty patently unfair.
Also ridiculous. But they did lose their minds over Obama’s suit apparently. August, what the fuck are you gonna do with these assholes?
@KG: what makes you think the GOP base won’t fall in line if Jeb us deemed the front runner (next in line)?
The Democratic base will fall in line. The neo-Confederates will fall in line. Hillary will win the general. In all likelihood (short another economic meltdown) another D candidate will win the general.
So we got nuthin’ to lose if someone primaries her.
max
[‘Not much else to say about it. Except I would like someone who doesn’t suck on war & peace, bankers, and the burgeoning police state.’]
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Suzanne:
Obviously. In my view, she should run with the pants suits. Not fashionable, but appropriate and practical. Her efforts at experimentation don’t seem to work. She is a bluestocking. She should just be it. Clothing is part of image. Image is a factor in politics. She isn’t good at style. She should neutralize it; as I said, pants suits.
KG
@Suzanne: eh, the clothes thing matters for professionals. As a lawyer, I would prefer to work in board shorts, flip flops, and a tshirt most days. But that’s not going to happen. Hell, even going with jeans and a nice polo on anything other than “casual Friday” gets plenty of disappointed looks.
I’m sure it sucks more for women, but when you’re in a profession, and politics (rightly or not) is a profession, you have to dress the part.
Suzanne
@max: We don’t get to have fun ridiculing the right wing for being shallow, sexist, and swayed by appearances if we’re all doing it, too.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Dog On Porch: I answered your question.
Belafon
@max:
As someone who will enthusiastically vote for whoever is the Democratic nominee, I would like a primary that looks like 2008 again, with the candidates having to work hard at the nomination.
mclaren
Me, I’m thinking HRC’s real look is: leather bustier. Whip. Black latex gloves and boots with LICK ME printed on the heel.
But that’s just me.
KG
@mclaren: when was the last time that the GOP primary electorate didn’t fall in line? If Jeb is deemed the next in line, they’ll bitch and moan, but they’ll fall in line.
And I’m not saying he’d win the general
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Suzanne: See KG’s comment.
mclaren
@KG:
So (and I’m really truly serious now) if the Republican National Committee came across the Necronomicon and conjured up Cthulhu, would the GOP base fall in line?
Would they surge forward, screaming “Eat me first! Take me! I want to be sacrificed to your dark glory!” and “Ia ia, Cthulhu ftagn rl’yeh!”?
Enquiring minds want to know…
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): But when she wore a lot of pantsuits, she got shit on for wearing a lot of pantsuits. She cannot please everyone, because she is a woman in her late 60s (who still looks pretty good, I must say) who doesn’t work in fashion and has never expressed any interest in it. She cannot win here.
@KG: Thanks for explaining (mansplaining) that to me. It’s not like I work in a professional environment and have to spend an estimated twice-as-much of my salary as my male coworkers on my wardrobe, accessories, and beauty treatments so I can maintain standards of dress at work. It’s not like I just spent $300 having my hair done last weekend so that I can maintain the illusion that I am not EIGHT HUNDRED YEARS OLD. WE ALL KNOW. We know the deal.
Either electing a president is important, and ideas are important, and policy is important, or stupid distractions are important. Just this morning, on the tan-suit thread, the lamentations of “oh, this is so stupid, it’s just a SUIT” could be seen through the whole thread. However, once the person wearing something fugly is a woman, everyone just nods sagely, throws up their hands, and tries to explain to me that in the REAL WORLD, appearances matter. THEY MATTER BECAUSE WE ACT LIKE THEY MATTER.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Suzanne: Okay. Let’s change society before the 2016 election.
mclaren
@Suzanne:
Are you for real?
Regardless which candidate America elects for president in 2016, we’re going to get exactly the same policies: more militarized authoritarian Pinochet-ization of American society, more abandonment of the rule of law by the president and anyone with a badge, more sadistic erosion of the rule of law by a Supreme Court straight out of an Argentine junta, more panopticon Orwellian surveillance, more endless unwinnable foreign wars, more military spending for superweapons that don’t work, more failed and futile War on Drugs and War on Copyright Infringement, more destruction of the middle class by so-called “free trade agreements” that lock in crony capitalist robber barony and mass offshoring of middle class jobs.
FFS, arguing about the color of Hillary’s pantsuits probably keeps most of the progressives on this forum from eating a .45 magnum.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): I’m working on it. But I could use a little help here.
mclaren
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
Isn’t Suzanne being ridiculous? These airheaded females. Jeez. Like we should actually try to change society during an election, of all things–!
That’s women for ya. Pretty, but they just don’t have a head for practical stuff.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@mclaren: Nice try.
Emma
@Suzanne: You’re not going to win that one. Men always retreat to the passive-aggressive personal attack — with added head-patting — when they realize they’ve put their foot in it with a woman. Maybe in in 500,000 will actually think about it.
One in 2,000,000 actually apologize.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Emma: I am being passive-aggressive here?
KG
@Suzanne: wasn’t trying to masplain. If it came off that way, I apologize. I was really trying to commiserate. Personally, they could wear a suit of armor made out of tin foil, I don’t care.
askew
@Suzanne:
Give me a break. That is the first excuse for any criticism of Hillary. It must be sexism. She comes across as calculating, charisma-free, old and dull. That’s not sexist. All of those things apply to many male politicians including Romney.
And voters care about personality. They don’t care about policy or Gore and Kerry would have won.
dww44
@SiubhanDuinne: Thanks for that. Michelle is actually doing a very credible job of threading the middle and letting Mr. Perdue say no to everything and a yes to shutting down the government. Let him keep being Mr. NO and she can talk about bridging the partisan divide and working with those with whom she might disagree. In the forum last week here in my town, he said he wanted to repeal Obamacare and she asked him directly if he honestly wanted to go back to what we had and that we should fix things and go forward. If folks are honestly listening they do have a real choice here. Let’s hope they see it.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@askew:
There are valid arguments that both Gore and Kerry did win.
Emma
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): No. You’re just being a bit of a mansplainer. But that’s ok. You’ve got other good qualities.
askew
@Suzanne:
Ok, now I know you are full of shit. Hillary doesn’t look pretty good after her SoS stint. She looks like she is in her mid-70s at best. That’s fine, but let’s be honest about it. Republicans didn’t go around pretending McCain or Dole looked good for their age. They didn’t. They both looked ancient as does Hillary. Romney looks good for his age. Boxer looks good for her age. Warren looks good for her age. Hillary looks ancient.
KG
@KG: ok, the tin foil suit of armor is a lie. I’ve judged male lawyers based on their appearance a thousand times. Ill fitting suit, five o’clock shadow, messed up hair, beat up suit case… Part of it comes from being a poker player, the way a person dresses and otherwise presents themself often times will tell you a lot about them
socraticsilence
@MikeBoyScout:
LBJ was also an amazing inside game player who for all his lack of JFK charisma, got shit done at a personal level when it was “nutcutting time” give me any evidence that Hillary makes up for her lack of any and all public charisma gifts with great political skills– domestically her one Clinton Administration effort was a massive boondoggle, she did little in the Senate besides grandstand on bullshit (flag-burning amendment) and act like a political coward trying to make the most palatable possible votes.
Suzanne
@KG: Apology accepted, thanks.
I am not a huge HRC fan, but I am a fan of winning. I think she would be a forgivable opponent if she runs, but if she runs against some I like better, that candidate would get my vote. I would love, LOVE to see a woman president in my lifetime, but that doesn’t have to be HRC.
BUT. BUT. BUT. The last time, instead of getting a meaningful discussion about her policy proposals, or her positions, or her strengths and weaknesses, we were treated to a year of “Oh My God, Can You Believe She Wore THAT?!?!” And the fact that a fairly good portion of people here on this thread, many of whom do not especially care for HRC as a candidate (though I am sure that’s a coincidence, YEAH RIGHT), immediately jumped back into that sort of shallow bullshit, REALLY makes me sad for any woman, HRC or not, who wants to run. Aside from the fact that I think it’s really shitty and Mean Girls-ish and petty to attack your opponent to snark on their clothes, it perpetuates these bullshit appearance standards that ALL WOMEN, HRC being only one, have to deal with. I would appreciate if people could be allies to women and stop it.
max
@Suzanne: We don’t get to have fun ridiculing the right wing for being shallow, sexist, and swayed by appearances if we’re all doing it, too.
Was I ridiculing her? I was not. I never have. I have criticized Hillary for many reasons, none of them sartorial, ever. And if E. Warren joins the race, I won’t be criticizing her for her sartorial choices *either*. Because I. Don’t. Care. Shit, all those Washington dudes look like Attack of the Clone Stepford Body Snatchers, what will all the same suits, so fuck it.
@Belafon: As someone who will enthusiastically vote for whoever is the Democratic nominee, I would like a primary that looks like 2008 again, with the candidates having to work hard at the nomination.
Just so!
max
[‘Amen.’]
dww44
@askew: I agree with Chris Hayes that Ted Cruz is a very dangerous, yet very smart, very wily politician (Chris saw him argue before the Supreme Court before he was Senator).. I despise absolutely everything that comes out of his mouth, but I do think we will have to reckon with him sooner, rather than later.
Steeplejack
@SiubhanDuinne:
Acquaintances have to be like lurkers: previously unknown but very welcome. Bring ’em.
KG
@Suzanne: I had another comment that is in moderation because I mentioned a game of skill… Readers digest version:
I’ve judged male lawyers based on their appearance a thousand times. Ill fitting suit, five o’clock shadow, messed up hair, beat up suit case… the way a person dresses and otherwise presents themself often times will tell you a lot about them
Again, policy should matter more than what color suit someone wore or if they wore jeans in the Oval Office or wtfever. But appearance is going to be a short hand for a lot of stuff
Anne Laurie
@SiubhanDuinne:
Then we will most definitely have to find a place where true conversation can take place!
(The Spousal Unit is also a lover of classical music.)
Suzanne
@askew: Gore did win.
So, once again, it’s okay for Dems to insist that a woman candidate be charismatic and fashionable and engaging because “that’s what voters want”, but we (rightly) ridicule the right wing for being shallow when they elect the (male) president they’d rather have a beer with?
HRC looks fine.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Emma: No intention of doing that. My apologies. Nonetheless, I think that HRC’s sartorial choices are hurting/will hurt her.
Dog On Porch
@Belafon: I just don’t get it. I can’t understand why any democrat still considers HC presidential timber after 2003. Her judgement contributed to the slaughter of god knows how many thousands. She was one of the handful of people on the planet in a position to raise hell about the transparent lies that were unfolded, and she didn’t squawk. She not only refused, but has since taken refuge in the Big Lie cover up.. As with all the other shameless bastards, she today claims she was honestly misled by honest people.
Ever wonder what happened to that little Iraqi boy whose arms were shorn from his torso by an American shell that also killed his family? It happened during the first few weeks of our noble if oh-so-honestly misguided 2003 Iraq War.
I don’t, either.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Dog On Porch: Perhaps you don’t understand it, but it is nevertheless a fact.
SiubhanDuinne
@dww44:
The key will really be GOTV. When I get back from the New England road trip, I expect to be devoting most of my time between mid-September and early November to getting folks registered, and then doing whatever I can to make sure they cast their ballots. It’s always something of a slog, but so important.
Anne Laurie
@Dog On Porch:
Heck, as someone whose earliest memories include falling asleep on the couch because my parents were too busy watching the 1960 election results to put my five-year-old self to bed, I can honestly say that Nixon taught me what it meant to be an American. Specifically, someone who rejected everything Nixon ever did or stood for!
As for Darth Cheney, if his repulsive heirs don’t whisk the body away, have it taxidermied, and hide it in his “man-sized safe”, I fully expect a long parade of politicians from all parties to eulogize him along the lines of the old joke: “He was an amazing individual, who changed our world in so many ways, and he will not be soon forgotten. In fact, I’ll go so far as to say that he’ll be missed… but only if you can assure me he’s really, most sincerely dead!”
StringOnAStick
@Anne Laurie: People will only go to Cheney’s funeral to make sure he really is dead. World leaders, politicians, religious figures; all of them will be looking closely, just to be sure.
Suzanne
@KG: I recognize that we live in a world in which there is a large contingent of people who are shallow and easily distracted.
HOWEVER, my point is that, on this very blog, on this very day, the commentariat expressed their support of PBO w/r/t some dumb comments made about his tan suit, noting that his outfit is a stupid thing to talk about. Then this evening, some of those same people snarked on HRC for wearing something ugly. Of course, this all comes in the context of PBO and HRC having been opponents in a previous election, in which HRC’s clothing and appearance was too frequently used to disparage her.
We cannot have it both ways. And the fact is that when a man’s outfit is under examination, we rightly point out that THAT IS STUPID. But the moment it’s a woman, or someone we don’t like, it’s a free-for-all on her clothes. As a woman, I would appreciate more male allies who would not engage in this behavior.
Ironically, this is happening on a thread in which we are discussing a white woman trying to ally herself with African Americans.
SiubhanDuinne
@Steeplejack:
@Anne Laurie:
@efgoldman:
As am I.
I will certainly invite John and his wife, but as I say, they may be ready for a night without me by then. Anyhow, very glad to know they would be welcome. Thanks.
mclaren
@Suzanne:
I feel your pain.
On the other hand, a meaningful discussion of HRC’s policy proposals or her positions would involve discussing stuff like:
Source: Wall Street Journal, 6 July 2014.
More tax cuts for billionaires and more unwinnable foreign wars. You likee? Me no likee.
Source: “Hillary Clinton’s Lucrative Goldman Sachs Speaking Gigs,” The Corner, 30 October 2013.
And what did HRC say at Goldman Sachs?
Source: “Hillary Clinton Tells Wall Street She Believes Anti-Wall Street Rhetoric ‘Foolish’,” Firedoglake, 12 December 2013.
I think Democrats are avoiding having a meaningful discussion about Hillary’s policy positions because they don’t want to projectile-vomit.
rikyrah
I don’t like the talk about her clothes. Will only say this-Hillary has too much money not to have a good stylist under hire.
mclaren
@StringOnAStick:
If all the horcruxes haven’t been destroyed, there’s no guarantee even then.
KG
@Dog On Porch: she’s from a generation of democrats scared of being soft on crime and soft on foreign policy (read: scared of using the military). In 2003 that included being soft on terrorism. That’s why a lot of “good Dems” voted for a stupid war. It’s also why she and so many others get a pass on that vote
Ruckus
@Suzanne:
Need a like button for this.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Suzanne: Obama’s suit looked good. HRC’s outfit did not. N’est-ce pas?
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@askew: Inducing that skin crawling feeling is NOT charisma, my friend.
Suzanne
@mclaren: This sexist BS makes it harder for every woman, not just HRC.
@rikyrah: But if she hires a stylist, she’s accused of being shallow and unserious.
Dog On Porch
@Anne Laurie: The day he kicks HC will eulogize Cheney in respectful terms– count on it. Maybe that’s what differentiates today’s democratic rank and file: those who will eulogize Cheney respectfully, and those whose self respect forbids it.
[Heads up, I’m going for a laugh here]: The question then becomes: have you any self respect left, Anne?
Anne Laurie
@Suzanne:
As the old Adlai Stevenson joke goes, it’s not enough to have “every thinking person” voting for you — in America, you also need the people whose most relevant voting experience was the last-but-one season of Dancing with the Stars.
The fashion snark is silly, and especially unfair to women (& people of color). But while I’m not gonna encourage picking “our” candidates’ every outfit to death, it also seems a little pretentious to act as though the dreaded “optics” aren’t gonna influence the Media Villagers, and thereby affect what the low-info voter is encouraged to believe.
SiubhanDuinne
@StringOnAStick:
Not unlike these guys.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@SiubhanDuinne: One of my favorite movies.
Suzanne
@Anne Laurie: As I stated, I recognize that there are lots of people who make important decisions based on stupid criteria.
But we, as ostensibly thinking liberals, don’t have to take part in it. And we COULD try to make the environment less sexist by not engaging in it, and by saying why not.
Anne Laurie
@gwangung:
Quoted for truth.
Doesn’t mean we have to like it, or approve of it, but there it bloody effing well is.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): From a sartorial perspective, I prefer more tailored, fitted suits on men. I also hate leopard and prints on clothes for myself. But that is discussion for Go Fug Yourself and Pinterest, which are not expected to have a large impact on the election.
SiubhanDuinne
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
Mine too. And that funeral scene is wonderful.
mch
I remember when people thought Reagan couldn’t possibly get elected because he was so obviously batshit crazy. Don’t be complacent on that score, folks! I am no fan of HRC, never have been, but unless some plausible alternative materializes, she may be the best we can hope for. And like [email protected], I think she maneuvered well with this statement. (I’ve been vacationing and caught up via Charlie, and was surprised to read more — how and why did he overlook this portion of her address, to a privileged white audience, no less?) As for those who object that HRC has gotten rich and all that: you’re buying in to the Villagers’ line on her, the one that is building to discredit her implicitly from the get-go. Besides: you really want Andrew Jackson back? That would solve everything?
Get a Dem majority going over time and we might be able to move the discourse properly left.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Suzanne: Yeah, we can, And we should. The question comes in when we have to decide between this and another Alito on the Supreme Court,
Let’s fix that. It will have far reaching consequences. To me, and I may be mansplainy, the Court vote matters more than just about anything.
Ruckus
@askew:
She is two years older than I am. I consider myself to be old only because the body doesn’t work as well as the teenager inside would like it to. When I look at Hillary, say in the video posted I don’t see someone ten yrs older than she is, she looks normal. And I don’t give a shit if she did look older, as Suzanne says it is about who she is and what she does that is important, not what she wears. You don’t like Hillary, I get that. I’m not a huge fan and yet I’ll vote for her unless someone else with a capital D runs, and then I’m going to have to compare the contestants. I look around and see people that are fully competent at what they do but they don’t have movie star looks at all. And then I compare them to newscasters and see mostly empty suits, good at looking a certain way, useless otherwise. I know who I’d pick for president.
Anne Laurie
@mclaren: Well, if you spend so much time scouring the WSJ, the Corner, and FDL to see what they have to say about HRC, no wonder you’re so manic about our political survival!
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Suzanne: It’s worse because political pundits are trained to look for political messages in everything. At the VMAs the clothes are most likely to have only one meaning: Look at meeeee! But all kinds of political codes can be wrapped up in clothing. And sometimes the clothes don’t really mean that much but you gotta fill up all that screen time with something and it sure as hell ain’t going to be serious political analysis so let’s do a failing out of seminar undergrad’s notion of the semiotics of bare arms essay live and extemporaneous. Sprinkle on misogyny and serve.
socraticsilence
There are two drawbacks to Hillary:
1) Everything the democratic base has problems with Obama on- (foriegn policy, too close to Wall Street, etc) she’s significantly worse on to the extent that a Hillary presidency is almost inevitably going to be a step backwards to the 90s when Democrats just sold out the base and adopted Republican policies in lieu of achieving anything (seriously, looking back name the last Clinton achievements that were actually a by product of the administration and not just being lucky enough to be president when the Internet got big)
2) She’s going to suffer a massive, massive mid-term level issue with low level staff enthusiasm and grassroots volunteer support– this is admittedly ancedotal but I see virtually no excitement at all at the lower level among potential field staffers for a Hillary candidacy.
Anne Laurie
@Dog On Porch:
I assure you, I will rejoice loudly & internet-publicly on the day Cheney dies. But I’m not running for office!
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Dog On Porch: Christ, what an asshole.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): On that point, which is far more important than how good anyone’s outfit looked, we are in 100% agreement.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
http://www.reactiongifs.us/nope-spider/
Violet
@Suzanne: Hillary’s looks have always been a point of discussion. When she was First Lady there was a ton of discussion about her hairstyles–she changed her hair a lot. That was kind of unusual for First Ladies.
Women are judged by their looks more than men. And dressing professionally as a woman is harder. You don’t just buy a closet of gray suits and white shirts and some ties and call it a day. It’s much more complicated. It’s unfair that women are judged that way more than men and I’m glad to see it called out.
That being said, I think Hillary has always been singled out for her looks more than some other high profile political women. Do Nancy Pelosi’s clothing choices get discussed as much? Diane Feinstein? Elizabeth Warren? Others? I don’t think they do. Maybe it’s because they haven’t run for president, but Nancy Pelosi as Speaker was niext n line for the Presidency.after Biden, so she was pretty high profile. It seems like Hillary is singled out more than others.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Suzanne: In my mind, that is all that matters. Criticism of her actions should be something she takes under advisement.
Do you want to suggest that I cannot criticize HRC?
Anne Laurie
New thread up top, anybody wants to start a different set of arguments…
Dog On Porch
@Anne Laurie: You (and like minded others) recognize Cheney’s evil, but let slide HC’s complicity in it. That’s what I’ll never understand. Ever.
Cervantes
@Dog On Porch:
See here.
PhilbertDesanex
I think its totally unfair, given today’s problems, to judge a person by their choice of outfit. Unless it’s as bad as that one.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Not at all. I think she should totally be criticized for her policy positions and her past actions in her official capacities.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@mclaren:
As this exactly describes my maternal grandmother during the 1980 election, all I can say is the GOP “embarrassed millionaire” voter base has always done this, so why change now?
El Caganer
If the Republicans slap the urine out of the Democrats in two months, how much difference will HRC’s sartorial choices make in her ability to get things done as President? For that matter, given such a condition this fall, how much difference would any Democratic candidate’s sartorial choices make in her/his ability to get things done as President?
Suzanne
@Violet: I think she gets more bullshit because she was a pretty outspoken FLOTUS, and that’s usually such an ornamental position. And she was straight up about wanting to be more than that. Sexist dudes just love to hate on women that want to be “above their station”. Pelosi and Feinstein and Warren weren’t known to us first in that way—they were in the public eye in a professional context from the get-go. Not to mention the attacks on her daughter’s appearance, FFS.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Horsefeathers. It’s her choices as Senator and SoS that hurt her.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Cervantes: stomach-churning
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Suzanne: It’s more than that. If you’ll recall there was a whole barrage of criticism of Hilary (and Bill to a lesser extent) for being a middle-class peasant with middle-class tastes, like the way she wore her hair during the campaign–very popular with white women at that time, quite solidly middle class, but not at all how important people did their hair. There were the stories when the Clintons moved into Washington about Bill’s eating habits, Hilary’s screaming at staffers, Bill cussing, Hilary’s arrogance. It was “who do these people think they are?” The Village never, ever forgave them–the hicks from a broke, flyover country state, if you can call it that–for moving into THEIR house.
When Clinton returned to Washington years later she was wealthy and powerful, she had become a Villager. Very little Village criticism of her looks, manner, clothing that I can recall.
Suzanne
@Another Holocene Human (now with new computer): The class issue is certainly part of it. But during the 2008 campaign, we heard more BS about her appearance than we did about her ideas. It didn’t stop just because she had money.
Death Panel Truck
@Belafon: The only person I would vote for enthusiastically is Uncle Joe. He’s old, but he’s got more charisma in his left pinkie than the whole of Hillary.
If Hillary is the nominee, I will vote for her with a gigantic clothespin over my nose. With no enthusiasm. At all.
Seriously, is she really the best we can do?
Citizen Alan
@Belafon:
This. I’m not a huge HRC fan and I wish she’d spoken out sooner. But I am amazed at complaints that her statement was focus-group tested. I can’t think of another major politician bold enough to go before a white audience and just flat out say “imagine how you would feel if you were treated like black people are.”
Citizen Alan
@Belafon:
I know the feeling. I live in a state where Thad Cochran is going to cruise to reelection because 10,000 AA voters crossed over to vote for him in the primary out of (justifiable) fear of Chris McDaniel, when I am convinced that McD would have fallen apart and opened the door to a Democratic Senator from Mississippi.
Citizen Alan
@mclaren:
Metaphorically speaking, yes. Whether it’s the environment, the economy or healthcare, the Republican base does, after all, consistently vote for policies that will lead to their own extinction.
Anya
@Belafon: No. It’s because she waited to see what was palatable before she voiced her ‘opinion’. It looks like a testing the wind kinda statement rather than a genuine reaction. As statement by a committee if you will. There is no authenticity about HRC. I don’t think she has any genuine opinion about anything anymore. All of it is tested by polls and what her consultants tell her. Besides, she was willing to use white resentment in her favor during the 08 primaries so I am not sure if she has any leg to stand on when it comes to racism.
Just One More Canuck
@PurpleGirl: @Anne Laurie: We got her from Animal Rescue Krew in Whitby (east of Toronto)
Anne if I can figure out how to attach pictures, I will send some
Thanks
Keith G
Coming back to this thread after about 9 hours, I see it took a bizarre turn – or actually maybe not as here we are discussing the way HRC looks. So, I’ll throw in.
I like the way the pant suit ensemble that she is wearing looks. It was a good, solid choice for the task it was required to perform. As I looked at the cropped pic above, I had an inkling that the close-up, narrow focus of the garment was not how this particular choice was meant to be viewed. Using the Googs, I found wider framed shots.
Speaking to 400+ folks from the dais of a 5,500 sq ft ballroom is a bit different than an up-close TV interview. HRC’s choice that day worked well with the palette and dimensions of the meeting area. It also worked well with the limitations of the wearer. I say that as a male in my later 50s, who has reached that point when my first/usual choice of clothing is no longer as intuitively appropriate as it used to be. God what a bummer.
Young’uns can throw on anything and look attractive, but there come a point when sartorial choices require much planning and a protractor.
Hillary’s choice was a hit.
Just One More Canuck
@Anne Laurie: “I didn’t attend the funeral but I sent a nice letter saying that I approved of it”
askew
@Ruckus:
I want more than just competent in a president. And that’s about all Hillary is going to manage. She’s never been a successful leader. Has never gotten anything of any consequence done on her own. Failed miserably in her one high profile attempt to lead.
So, if she isn’t going to bring leadership experience to the table, doesn’t have charisma or real political skills. She can’t fix those problems, but she can fix the problems with looking ancient. She is going to be the oldest president in history if elected and it does her no good to bring attention to her age because of her poor clothing choices and grooming. She should look to Boxer, Pelosi, or Feinstein. Romney didn’t get as much crap for his age because he looks a good 10 years younger than his age. Hillary looks like she is in mid-70s and is exhausted. And yes, that matters to voters.
askew
@Suzanne:
That worked in Hillary’s favor. Every time the media focused on her clothes, she got to whine about media coverage and SNL would air another skit about how hard it was to be Hillary.
And the last thing Hillary wanted was a discussion of policy or accomplishments because her resume was so thin in 2008. A comparison of Obama and Hillary’s record would not do her any favors.
askew
@Belafon:
If you ignore O’Malley, Paul, McCaskill and Sanders you might only get 2 white politicians. Hillary didn’t do anything new here.
Belafon
@askew: Thanks for the names. So it brings it up to people we can count on one hand.
Applejinx
I don’t see how all this is so difficult.
So HRC is the Queen. No real leadership and a figurehead who tacks to political winds.
Therefore, go out there and push the fuckin’ Overton Window leftward like it was being dragged by a team of Clydesdales. She’ll fall in line.
You could reasonably argue that, at the times Clinton tacked right in the belief that rightwingers were running the show, rightwingers were running the show which made her observation correct. The criticism there is that she helped, not that she had a personal agenda for making things that way.
Get out and organize and vote and deal with things. If you change the environment around Clinton you get the Clinton that you want. Like most politicans: she’s just more obvious to you because you want to believe she’s a hack.
Cervantes
@Applejinx:
Yes, but the flaw in the argument is this: politicians respond at least as much to their funders as to their electorate.
And those are the good ones.
rikyrah
@Violet:
Nancy Smash is always on point. I don’t know if she has a stylist or does it naturally, but Nancy Smash is always put together.
askew
@rikyrah:
Nancy is one of the best dressed politicians out there. I think Boxer and Feinstein dress fine. Hillary’s clothes stands out because she is poorly put together.
PhilbertDesanex
@askew: And the RWNJ hate Nancy just as much or more, though it just might have something to do with her effectively exercising power. Can’t win for losing.
Man(oops) would I like Nancy as President!
askew
@PhilbertDesanex:
Who cares if they hate Nancy? Nancy doesn’t. She gets shit done regardless of their opinion. She would kick ass as president.
Keith G
wow fywp issues
Keith G
Time for a cocktail it seems.