R.I.P. Joan Rivers, possibly the last great comic who wouldn’t have minded being labelled a comedienne. The curse of living to old age in the public eye is that, inevitably, one ends up viewed as a cuddly caricature — ask Mr. Samuel Clemens, aka “cranky Granpa Mr. Twain”…
My Joan Rivers thoughts, now in Storify form: https://t.co/rrHWxEFjen
— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) September 5, 2014
James Wolcott, at Vanity Fair:
… There’s a lot to be said for living to an age where you don’t give a faint damn anymore, and for a generation or so that’s the age Joan Rivers was their entire lives. Generation X, Y, and into the Millennial beyond only know the Joan Rivers who was the red carpet scourge of E!, the host of her own show on QVC, the talk show guest and stand-up who stuck a hot fork into the pretensions and absurdities of tabloid celebrities, converting every day and every venue into her own personal Friars Roast. Those who came late to the broadcast that was her public life know little or nothing about the Joan Rivers who didn’t conduct herself like the fifth and most outrageous Golden Girl, who came up in the same Greenwich Village club scene as Woody Allen and Richard Pryor, appeared in the film version of John Cheever’s The Swimmer, and suffered enough personal and career blows to qualify for a Judy Garland purple heart: the falling out with Tonight show host Johnny Carson and the banishment into his permanent Siberia; the subsequent failure of her own late-night show, where she was introduced during the premiere to the brassy strains of “The Bitch Is Back”; the suicide of her husband, Edgar Rosenberg, months after the show’s cancellation (he had been a producer on the show, the pressure of which, compounded by the heart medication he was on, may have deepened his clinical depression); and too many controversies to count that rocked her cockpit wherever she went. To anyone who came of hazy consciousness later than 1990, say, Joan Rivers has prowled the pop culture stage entirely as a self-caricature, a worthy foil for Miss Piggy of the Muppets…
Actual NY Times correction: "misstated the year of Ms. Rivers’s death. It was 2014, of course, not 1914."
— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) September 5, 2014
Baud
It’s interesting seeing people’s diametrically opposite reactions to her passing.
Gex
Oh I don’t know. I didn’t find her “Palestinians deserve to die” statements to be all that cuddly. Caricature fits, maybe. But not cuddly.
dp
She was something else. Didn’t always like her, but always respected her. And she was mighty funny.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Gex: https://www.facebook.com/joanrivers/posts/10152381457183040
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
jl
I will not be here for any more debates over Rivers. I think some sexism shows through some people’s attitudes re her versus other ‘sick’ comedians. I was not a big fan of her later comedy, which I think could get pretty mean towards others, the get into cheap shot territory. But she was always at least as hard on herself as she was on others. I think people should get on youtube and watch her early acts (and maybe these two critics did not do enough of that).
Carlin was a very intellectual comedian, constant laughs from usually from the head. I don’t think Carlin created much of a character like other comics. It was Carlin, a very smart insightful guy spitting out insights.
I don’t see how Pryor was a ‘sick’ comic much at all. I think he had a lot in common with Winters. Pryor slipped in and out of dozens of characters and usually with at least a brief trip into deep absurd psychological surrealism. Look at Winters’ and Pryor’s eyes in some clips. I see the same look. They can see an underlying reality we other mere mortals cannot, much of what they see is horrifying, and they make something funny out of it.
The self loathing expressed in Riverrs early work was heartfelt and open, and sets her apart from Carlin. These two critics seem to think ‘sick’ comedy was new, but I think it is an old tradition in U.S. comedy. In the 50s and 60s it could be expressed more openly. Listen to some of the self loathing and cruelty, expressed in a different way and under heavier disguise in the Benny show, some of the masochism and hapless self cruelty of Keaton. And Groucho Marx, who did it with a lot of what we might call ‘projection’. Burns played himself as an boring incompetent useless idiot in his act, even more worthless than Allen who played herself as a daffy fool. And Kathy Griffin does it in terms of a failed social and professional climber, often just as tastelss and tacky as Rivers, often implicitly mean towards others, but with less open insult and sex . Then there is Any Kauufman. I think a lot of the humor came from people playing themselves as such miserable hopeless messes and failuresm and yet somehow surviving and even doing some good and having some non-miserable even happy moments, and small victories.
I will look for some old clips of Diller, who I liked just as much as Rivers, and I don’t remember ever being so mean to others as she got older.
That is my IMHO two cents.
But if people want to rip on Rivers, when you have many acts like Rickles and, well, fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Ella in New Mexico
I enjoyed Joan Rivers for decades, even when she was harsh–right up until the day, several weeks ago, when she said Michelle Obama is a “tranny”. She mocked a beautiful and athletic black woman for her body. She never came back and said “Ha Ha, I was just playing on all the fake memes out there”, she let it hang, like a dead cat on a telephone line. It was pretty disgusting.
That was not comedy, that was mean, cruel and not necessary.
I forgive her her trespasses, and appreciate her contributions. But can we not make this woman into some kind of Saint? She was funny, broke the rules, but she did not discover the cure for cancer or solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
She was human, and she said things that made people laugh, which is not unobjectionable, given our country’s social problems. That was a great gift she gave. But really, lets not canonize the woman.
Mike in NC
Good riddance. I disliked a little bit more than Robin Williams.
rikyrah
I remember when Rivers won her Daytime Emmy after her husband’s suicide and she spoke of him in her acceptance speech.
Helen
Like most people I was of two minds about Joan. Sometimes I loved her, other times, I was, like “hon, oh no.” But I cut her a lot of slack. I am 52 years old and I am very sensitive to younger women who think they have it hard – I’m looking at you Lena Dunham – Oh no, sweetie, you have no idea. I remember the shit I had to put up with as a feminist at 25. Joan was a full generation before me. I cannot imagine what she had to put up with.
I was (and still am) a huge Johnny Carson fan. When I was a 12 my mother died and I became a serious insomniac. I could not get to sleep. Johnny Carson saved me. He not only gave me something to do between 11:30 and 1:00; he made me laugh while I was doing it. But when the Joan Rivers thing happened I took her side. He was wrong. And I think his reaction had a lot to do with the fact that she was a woman.
Lastly, one fun Helen anecdote about Joan. A few years ago I saw her in the theatre here in NYC. She was in the audience across the aisle from me. And she looked GREAT. She was made up to the nines. But still. She looked great. YAY, plastic surgery. If you want it, get it.
If you haven’t seen it yet, see the 2010 documentary about her: “A Piece of Work.” It shows her as a smart, hardworking, sometimes self-questioning, flawed person. Like the rest of us.
jl
Pryor much more confessional than Winters though, that was the big difference between them. And Pryor addressed the race and class things, but think there was a lot more to him that ‘sick’ humor or social commentary humor.
Cacti
“You’re dead. You deserve to be dead. Don’t you dare make me feel bad about that.”
Ms. Rivers unwittingly gave a fitting epitaph for herself.
srv
IDK, never liked her because I didn’t like her filling in for Carson. She just wasn’t that great of a host. But a lot of his old shows are pretty boring when you watch them on the youintertube.
PurpleGirl
I wonder what the lawsuit will claim: malpractice or wrongful death. The physicians of the East Side surgical center she was at when she went into cardiac arrest are done for, I think. (ETA: Will be interesting to read the State report on the incident.)
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Cacti: I tend to prefer to leave the RIP threads to fans of the deceased.* YMMV.
Thatcherand Cheney are among those on my exception list. That being said, I’ll pretty much just stay out of this thread unless it goes “open” later.*YMMV.
Mnemosyne
As I was saying in yesterday’s thread, I think she was more in the “insult comic” tradition. She was forced to do more of the self-deprecating “sick comic” stuff in her act because she was a woman and a woman comic couldn’t be as openly mean as a Don Rickles, but she definitely had a lot more in common with Rickles than with Pryor or Allen. IMO, that’s one of the reasons she always seemed to be a bit of a throwback to earlier times while Pryor’s comedy still seems fresh.
Also as I said in the earlier thread, you can recognize that she was a pioneer and and trailblazer without having to like her or her act. Remember, pioneers settled the West while slaughtering American Indians and each other. Pioneers are usually the assholes who were stubborn enough to keep kicking in doors until they fell down.
Violet
@PurpleGirl: It seems really irresponsible for them to allow an older patient to undergo that kind of procedure without having hospital admitting privileges or to do it in a hospital. Apparently she was under general anesthesia, which seems risky to do in an outpatient clinic for someone her age. There are risks for anyone but the older you get the more things can go wrong.
Helen
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): When Cheney dies I’m having a party. Wanna come?
Violet
@Mnemosyne:
Yep. I wasn’t a big fan of her style but I respect where she came from, what she accomplished and she’s a big inspiration to a lot of female comics. I don’t have to like her style to recognize her accomplishments.
Violet
@Helen: I’ll be there with bells on.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Helen: I’ll bring champers. I’ll go Bollinger.
Mnemosyne
@Helen:
I’ve already pledged to piss on Cheney’s grave. This will be tricky to pull off since I’m a woman, but it will be worth the effort.
JWR
@Gex: What Gex said. With her “Palestinians deserve to die” comment, she was dead to me. Fuck her.
Belafon
I thought this was pretty good: http://www.newyorker.com/cartoons/daily-cartoon/daily-cartoon-friday-september-5th-joan-rivers.
Violet
@Mnemosyne: Many years ago I was in a small town in a rural part of a developing country. I was waiting for a bus or something and this woman near me decided she had to pee. She was wearing a skirt, so she spread her legs into something of a straddle and let it flow. You could do it that way for dead Dick Cheney’s grave.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
Comedy Central Roast of Joan Rivers – her rebuttal (7:29) (lots of bad words).
She was unique, and no topic was sacred (in a good way).
RIP.
Cheers,
Scott.
Violet
@Belafon: That’s funny.
Gin & Tonic
@Helen: Of all the myriad things to hate him for, I find his appearance at Auschwitz to be at the top of the list. Is that odd?
satby
@Helen: I’ll bring the fireworks and party hats!
Mnemosyne
@Violet:
It can be done, but it’s a little trickier than just whipping it out. Maybe I can pretend to be crouching down to put flowers on the grave to fool the security cameras.
(I’ve been to the Reagan Library where Ronnie is entombed, and they warn you that you are on camera. Cheney will probably have a pee-detecting invisible fence around his plot.)
satby
@Gin & Tonic: nope. His complete lack of regard for the solemnity of the occasion and his hosts just underscored what a self centered asshole he is.
Mnemosyne
Slightly OT (but I think we already beat the Rivers horse in the other threads yesterday), but Jeet Heer’s Storify of his tweets on “The Economist, Slavery & Contrarian Tropes” is really good. A couple of selections:
Violet
@Mnemosyne: You could bring pee in a vial and surreptitiously empty the contents on the grave.
I suspect he’ll be buried on a private plot well inside the boundary lines of some family ranch land in Wyoming or something. The grave will not be accessible to the public.
Helen
@Gin & Tonic: Um. Wow. Dunno. I think the Auschwitz thing was all about “Whatever, I gotta be here.” And that was his entire thought about it. Passive. Iraq was way more a pro-active thing. He wanted those people dead. He thought that making money on those dead people was a good thing. He was PSYCHED!!!!!
I don’t really think he thought about all the dead jews at Auschwitz. Cuz it didn’t make him any money. And he didn’t have the pleasure of killing them. From a distance of course. He had other priorities.
Poopyman
@Violet:
Drones. Poetic justice, IMO.
Mnemosyne
@Violet:
I’m afraid that would violate the terms of my pledge. A squat is what it’s going to have to be.
Mnemosyne
@Poopyman:
Okay, I think it would be okay for me to violate the letter of my pledge if I can do it by drone. I’ll keep that in mind as a Plan B.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Helen: That is pretty much my view of him. If it made money for him, it was okay. No matter what the other costs may be. If it didn’t, he didn’t give a shit about it.
Gex
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Worth something. Thanks for the link!
Mnemosyne
@Violet:
@Poopyman:
I told G about my pledge and he said, “You’re gonna have to wait in a really long line to do that.”
Reader, (that’s why) I married him.
Helen
@Mnemosyne: I’ll be there to hold up the blanket in front of you. Can I piss too? Will you hold my blanket?
Mnemosyne
@Helen:
Sure! We’ll make it a road trip. It’s gonna look like Woodstock once everyone who’s made the same pledge gets there. :-)
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne: That would make a great cartoon – a sign for the line to piss on Cheney’s grave, and a long line of people willing to wait.
TriassicSands
I’ve never been a fan of “mean” comedy. Being funny by being mean to other people is not funny to me. I have no idea what Rivers’ comedy was like in her later years, because I never found her funny and didn’t watch her.
The one thing she did that made an impression on me was the way she allowed her face to be mutilated in an attempt to…what…look young? I understand (and deplore) the bias in entertainment against age, but that seems to me like it would be more of a problem with female actors, than with comedians.
I find it painful, even sickening, to look at the faces of older entertainers who have undergone repeated surgeries in an attempt to be able to continue to pretend they haven’t aged. Rather than appear young, these people increasingly look like victims of some horrible experiments gone wrong.
If I had found Rivers funny, I would have laughed just as hard if her face had been lined, creased, and sagging — natural aging. However, her appearance became so off-putting to me that I avoided looking at pictures of her even momentarily.
This list of entertainers who have mangled their faces is long and getting longer, and it’s not entirely made up of females — Michael Jackson being the obvious example of a male who utterly destroyed his face in an effort to achieve something I can’t even begin to imagine, since it began long before he was old and as a man he didn’t face the sexist “ideal” that women face.
I have no special feelings about Rivers’ death one way or the other, but to me, she set a horrible example for younger women. If she had wanted to be a true pioneer, she could have aged naturally and made it part of her routine — and she could have been as “mean” as she wanted to be about a society that pressures women to undergo unnecessary surgeries in an effort to maintain an illusion — and a very unhealthy illustion at that.
Mnemosyne
@TriassicSands:
There are some rumors/speculation/anonymous whispers that Jackson did so much drastic plastic surgery because he was trying to look as unlike his abusive father as possible. It’s certainly within the realm of possibility.
As far as Rivers’s plastic surgery goes, I think it’s partly a generational thing. Phyllis Diller also had extensive plastic surgery. And once you start down that road, you have to continue, because aging plastic surgery looks worse than natural aging.
trollhattan
@Poopyman:
He’ll be eaten by a Wyoming grizzly and the grave will be several sites scattered across Yellowstone. Sadly, the bear will die of poisoning.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@trollhattan: Why do you hate bears?*
*Andrew Sullivan excepted. – we know those reasons.
Helen
@TriassicSands:
Black comedy Michael Jackson joke: “Only in America can you be born a poor black boy and grow up to be a rich white woman.”
And that is only my second favorite Michael Jackson joke; well, story. You know he died the same day as Farrah Fawcett; right?
Schlemizel
some guy video’ed himself pissing on the grave of Art Model. There was a lot of internet outrage and a potential criminal charge. My feelings are, who did he harm? Whats the point?
I don’t want to piss on Cheney’s grave (on the man himself – you bet!). Once he is dead nothing more will happen to him. Thats why I hope he lives to a very very old age. He is obviously an angry, unhappy, man and life is not a fun experience. As he lives longer he will have even fewer friends and his evil will be more apparent and more widely spoken of publicly. A very slow decent, retaining his mental faculties such as they are so that he will be able to feel the hate. That would be much more satisfying.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Schlemizel: Mind stepping a thread down and offering your opinion of Finding Phoebe?
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Schlemizel: Hey, in a previous thread, JMN mentioned that you had read his whole nove and suggested we ask you what you think. If you feel comfortable doing so, i would be interested in your opinion. Good or bad, it won’t affect my willingness to give to his Kickstarter.
Schlemizel
I really felt Rivers stopped being funny several years ago, and for sure stopped afflicting the afflicted. The excessive plastic surgery made he unpleasant to watch. But what really ruined her for me was that documentary. It was full of self-pity and self-aggrandizement in equal measure. There were stories that contradict known facts and others that were questionable at best. To me she came across as a very unpleasant person. But then, many talented people are, particularly late in life. What was sad was that she had a lot of talent and a great act for a very long time but lost it and either nobody told her or she didn’t listen, it tarnished her body of work.
Helen
@Schlemizel: Why do you think he’s
I think he’s happier than a pig in shit. He has no conscience, no shame, and no regrets.
Of course he doesn’t. Because America does not indict or convict our criminals. Not those who are in government. Or who work on Wall Street.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Helen: Here is the problem with politicians and prosecutions – the knowledge that they may be prosecuted makes them more likely to hang on by undemocratic means. There is a line somewhere, but I can’t say for sure where it is. I just hope that a Cheney flight is forced to land in Spain or France and international criminal law takes its proper course.
Anne Laurie
@TriassicSands:
Yeah, well, I worship Richard Pryor’s work, but I have trouble watching his ‘Mudbone’ sketches. But the Mudbone character came from a deep & damaged part of Pryor’s soul, and it is not up to me to decide whether he “should have” kept acting it out in public.
Rivers’ plastic surgery came from the damaged part of her psyche where she never stopped being the “ugly little flat-chested girl”, “such a dog, they got me down the aisle [at her wedding] by throwing a bone”. I wouldn’t have chosen that route myself, and I would’ve enjoyed her work more if she hadn’t kept returning to pick those scabs in public, but part of why Rivers succeeded in the first place was that she didn’t listen to other peoples’ opinions about how tasteful she should be…
A Humble Lurker
@Anne Laurie:
And she might have been even more successful if she hadn’t been damaged and been able to listen to some of it. Really, there’s no way to know.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@A Humble Lurker: Many (dare I say, most) successful comedians are damaged.
Helen
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
Well. If that happens he will claim diplomatic immunity. But it does not matter. The world outside of the USA does not matter to him. – YAY LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT. WE ARE EXCEPTIONAL!!?!!!!
gian
ahh, my google fu is weak tonight. there’s a lotr quote about boromir (reflecting Tolkien’s catholic roots I think)
about remembering the honorable things he did and forgetting the attempt to rob Frodo.
JR was a complex person, she clearly identified with Israel in a way that most of us (younger than her) don’t at age 81 she had lived through the formation of the state of Israel and the photos of the showers and ovens were fresh news to her at an early age. I can see where her bias came from and while not excusing it, I can understand it.
.
I think she deserves credit for being a trailblazer for women. I think she had flaws. I think it’s probably ironic that she died doing an elective medical procedure. I do wish it was Dennis Miller instead of her. In a murder suicide with Ben Stein
I have to say the limited stuff I saw of her work, it was later in her career and didn’t impress me much. I expect her great days were when she was younger and an insurgent against a male dominated profession.
the local so cal news says that johnny carson had her as his “permanent” guest host and heir apparent and that she took the gig at fox (and failed) in competition to him and he was bitter about it.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Helen: In either France or Spain, he would not be able to claim any immunity. He will never voluntarily go to either of those countries. Let’s just hope for bad weather if he tries an international flight.
Helen
@gian:
I love you.
Jane2
I can foresee hours and hours and hours of the 24/7/365 news wurlitzer dedicated to the “mysterious circumstances” of her passing. At 81.
Anne Laurie
@trollhattan:
Nice. But I fully expect his family to recycle that infamous man-sized safe from Cheney’s glory days, for the lulz.
And also, because if their public (sociopathic) personas are any guide, his “grieving family” will forget about him exactly fifteen nanoseconds after every last burst of funerary media nostalgia has been milked…
TriassicSands
@Mnemosyne:
I could believe something like that. There had to be something very unhealthy behind the path he chose. Looking at photos of the young Michael Jackson, make it even sadder, because he was a very nice looking boy/young man.
@Anne Laurie:
I can’t begin to understand what drives someone to such extremes. It does seem like a lot of entertainers have some serious psychological problems with being accepted and acceptable. Performing is a way to seek what’s missing, I guess.
I suppose you may be right about continuing once you’ve started. I’ve never been able to figure out what someone like Joan Rivers sees when she looks in the mirror. When I look at her, I feel sad, but I found her appearance grotesque and difficult to look at. Does she and others who’ve had so much surgery see something good when they look in the mirror? Something improved over the “before” photo?
Mostly, I just feel sorry that for whatever reason people feel the need to do that to themselves. If it somehow makes them happier, I can’t argue with that, but it’s hard for me to believe that the “masks” that people are left with look good even to them.
lamh36
Late to the thread, but ummmm, sorry, but I’m more excited by the “new” leaked Adele music. How’s I miss that?
Wow, even leaked “rejected” song from Adele are better than newer stuff released by other artist today.
WaterGirl
@gian: For a second, I thought everything I knew was wrong. I saw your Tolkien reference and then you used the initials “JR” and for a second I thought you were still referring to Tolkien, and then you went on to refer to Tolkien as “she” and as a trailblazer for women.
I did a triple-take before I finally realized that JR was Joan Rivers. whew!
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Bonus if Bobby Jindal is on the same flight and the Icelandic volcano is the cause for the forced emergency landing.
Helen
@lamh36: “Leaked Adele music” I wanna know why she looks so skinny up top. She was gorgeous “fat” Also she just had a baby.
Anne Laurie
@lamh36: This is a full-service blog, yes! I’d been looking for an excuse to share Adele’s latest, and it seemed appropriate to the topic…
seaboogie
I’ve never been a big fan of Joan Rivers, but reviewing her past appearances as they are available, there was a true and desperate voice there – painful, persistent and funny. It seems like she so needed to be in front of an audience to be alive, and what she eventually did to her body, and how hard she worked, it just seems like she was always dancing for attention. It has also seemed in the last few months like maybe she was getting a bit drifty, maybe her mind was starting to fail her. It seemed like whatever bile Joan was spewing lately was just to keep the camera on her, and validate her continued existence. Most of us get to do this in private.
Suzanne
@Mnemosyne: If Cheney dies around the time you need another colonoscopy, maybe you could take a prep shit on his grave.
Ohhhh that would be so amazing.
ruemara
When I was a kid, she was funny, because I thought her self-depricating jokes were so outrageous, that it made me laugh. But I hated her jokes about famous people. It seemed so cruel. I had respect, because she was one of a very small group of women-successful comics with longstanding careers. Her issues with food, aging, they seemed really sad. Her shallow fashion thing was also sad. Any pity I felt was removed once she did a triple Lutz of bigotry to be homophobic, racist & transphobic. Then she was so hateful towards Palestinians. May she see the harm she’s caused and if there is another go at life, may she do better.
Mister Papercut
I’ve not looked favorably on Joan Rivers since her husband’s suicide — when she came back from that, her schtick went from being naughtily tart-tongued to just outright venomous. Lazily taking the low-hanging fruit of calling celebrities like Adele “fat” is one thing, but using the Cleveland kidnap victims as a punchline is quite another. And refusing to apologize just showed the true nature of this nasty, misogynistic witch and put me squarely in a “I’ve read some obituaries with great pleasure”-place.
mai naem
I really didn’t know much about Joan Rivers beyond her issues with Johnny Carson and I really liked Johnny Carson so I imagine I took Carson’s side. I had no idea she was in Second City. I had no idea she hung out with Woody Allen, Richard Pryor, Lily Tomlin and Rodney Dangerfield. I listened to Fresh Air today and it really came across on the interview that Terri Gross and Rivers seemed to really like and respect each other. She really came across as a very down to earth and practical person.
Hobbes
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): I think Fankie Bolye’s comments about Thatcher’s funeral sum up my opinion of her.
Gindy51
@Cacti: Karma can be a right nasty bitch, can’t she?
Applejinx
@TriassicSands:
“Michael Jackson being the obvious example of a male who utterly destroyed his face in an effort to achieve something I can’t even begin to imagine, since it began long before he was old and as a man he didn’t face the sexist “ideal” that women face.” -TriassicSands
You see, this sort of thing throws me and makes it hard to relate to the related complaints about Rivers. If it’s literally true I’d suggest you try harder to imagine, and strongly suggest you at least begin to imagine.
Michael Jackson had a black person nose. Even on his record ‘Off The Wall’. MTV launched in 1981. Michael had made a video for ‘Don’t Stop Til You Get Enough’ from that record, and MTV would not play it. They played no black artists.
HE broke that color line with ‘Billie Jean’ and the album Thriller.
…and with a white person nose.
If you cannot imagine why he’d do a thing like that because he didn’t face a ‘sexist ideal’ then you’re missing something too big to miss by accident. Since when is ‘ism’ so specific?
In that light it’s fairly obvious that when he couldn’t get bigger than ‘Thriller’, ever, in desperation he went ‘argh! WHITER! must make nose whiter!’ and flipped out.
For what it’s worth I adore Joan Rivers in much the same way I like Gordon Ramsay. It’s not about her being RIGHT, she can totally fuck that up. It’s about the chutzpah, and Joan is not expected to be a role model. She can be the trainwreck she was, as long as she vents vicariously for me.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
Dead thread, but I came across this in the NY Times Obit:
Nothing was sacred in her humor. That takes guts.
She invited people to not dwell on the superficial, and by implication, think about what’s more important in life. But she left others to make that inference.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who laughed and cringed. And laughed again. Why? Because it’s punny.)
WaterGirl
@Hobbes: That was so awesome! Who are those people, and do they have a regular show?
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
Longest line ever.
I’d take bets that it would be half way around the world. And more fitting than spitting on Mussolini hanging from the lamp post.
Can you imagine the cheers every time someone finishes?
Also if someone sold tickets and gave the asshole a cut he’d probably OK the whole thing.
Bobby Thomson
@Gex: Yep.
Bobby Thomson
@Applejinx:
Not getting bigger than a record-breaking album is such a drag.
Dude was a pedophile. Fuck ‘im.
Bobby Thomson
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
As evidenced by all her thought provoking red carpet cattery.
Mnemosyne
Also, last thing — people will notice that while not everyone who saw her was a fan, there’s been a huge outpouring of tributes from her fellow comedians, because she was always warm, professional, and mentoring for them. Again, the public persona she put on for the cameras was not necessarily what she was really like in private.
WaterGirl
@Ruckus: So tell me. Do you empty your bladder the first time you get to the head of the line, or is it more like a dog thing where you ration it out so you can get back in line again?
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
Depends on the length of the line. In this case I’d say bladder empty.
And then get back in line.
WaterGirl
@Ruckus: One of my favorite cartoons shows a very male looking dog drinking out of a fire hose, and a very female looking dog comes out on the porch, saying something like “taking a walk with the other boys tonight?
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@WaterGirl: “So! Planning on roaming the neighborhood with some of your buddies today?”.
:-)
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: That’s the one!!!
wasabi gasp
I was saddened by Joan’s passing. If I was a more religious man, I might have wished for her to become a vampire.
Also, to what you did up top there, Anne Laurie, that is some mighty fine fuckery.
/hats off