Digital tabloid TMZ obtained the whole elevator surveillance video that shows Ravens star Ray Rice knocking his then-girlfriend-now-wife out with a vicious punch. You can see it at Deadspin if you want to watch it; I’m not posting it.
Prior to the TMZ sleazoids getting ahold of the whole thing, video had surfaced of Rice dragging the unconscious Ms. Rice out of the elevator like a sack of potatoes. Both were charged with domestic violence in the incident, and the NFL originally suspended Rice for two games.
When people complained about the light punishment (players who test positive for weed routinely get much longer suspensions), NFL Commissioner Goodell admitted he fucked up by giving Rice a slap on the wrist, but just how big a cock-up that was is now illustrated for all the world to see with this video, which the NFL and Ravens officials allegedly saw before setting a two-game suspension.
There’s some controversy around that: It’s not 100% clear what Goodell and the team saw. If they didn’t see the whole thing, the TMZ video is a good reason to revisit Rice’s punishment, isn’t it? If they did see it, well, our initial suspicions about how seriously they take domestic violence in the league have been borne out yet again.
What do y’all think?
UPDATE: The Ravens cut Rice.
Schlemizel
Its a very sad joke because it’s way too true
Mr. Goodell, Wes Welker popped Molly
Gosh, thats bad – 2 game suspension!
Mr. Goodell, Molly is a drug
Oh! Thats different, 4 game suspension!
I seriously do not understand how these big powerful men can think so little of their strength that they use it so casually.
EDIT: but remember this is a league that apparently does not have a problem employing murderers and rapists along with your garden variety violent assault criminals so why is everyone so bent out of shape about a simple family violence situation? UGH, I have grown to hate the NFL.
Cacti
So, when will Tony Stewart get suspended from auto racing for killing a man?
bemused
A ceo is longer a ceo after elevator video surfaced of him abusing his dog. A 2 game suspension for a guy knocking out his girlfriend is pathetic. He should be arrested.
AxelFoley
@Cacti:
BOOM!
scav
From some of the comments from presumably fans under the version I saw, there is some reason to believe the players and NFL admin are drawing largely from the same pool of upstanding morality. Wouldn’t want that bastion of idyllic role-model muscular xian masculinity tainted by dah ghey.
@bemused: The developing elevator thread is rather amusing. The relative ranking of victims is also illuminating, if less surprising.
Schlemizel
@bemused:
Well, it wasn’t HIS dog. Maybe if Rice had punched some other mans property he would have gotten into more trouble.
@Cacti:
Thats another good question. Even though he has plausible deniability there is an awful lot of people ignoring the obvious in order for him to get away with what he did.
PaulW
Rice apparently avoided trial on the charges by agreeing to a court-ordered counseling program.
the problem is with the NFL. they first claimed they saw the whole video, then when the real whole video comes out they start acting like “oh, we didn’t see this part where Rice is the one doing all the punching.”
Try to remember the league office claimed the fiancee (now WIFE God help her) threw the first punch and that the cops were charging both with assault. But then the cops dropped the assault charge on her and upped the assault charges on Rice after viewing the elevator video in its entirety, something that the NFL was telling their top reporters they had done. So the cops didn’t buy Rice’s BS excuse, yet the NFL still hit him with a meager 2-game suspension.
This is all on Goodell. He and his office have been screwing up every big topic scandal falling at their door. And now it’s looking like they lied, big time.
Betty Cracker
@Cacti: Seriously? Christ on a corncob.
beth
I don’t know anything about this so am I right in assuming that this woman married this guy after he did that to her?
Betty Cracker
@beth: Yeah. That’s pretty common, though, as I’m sure you know. I thought “Perks of Being a Wallflower” was an awful movie, but it contained one great line: We accept the love we think we deserve.
Juju
I don’t get marrying the person who beat you unconscious. Is the money and status really worth it all?
Edmund Dantes
There have been articles written before about the major sports leagues and the ex-cops, FBI guys, and other connected people they have running their Security and investigation teams.
Really? They didn’t see the video or have a way of getting it? If they didn’t see it, they didn’t see it because they chose not to pursue obtaining it.
It doesn’t bode well for Goodell’s competency that he’s now admitting that he ruled as judge jury and executioner on a matter he knew would have long running implications for his bosses (owners) without having all the evidence in front of him.
Also while it was convenient to them, they let the idea that they saw the video hang out in the wind. They hung a lot of the NFL reporters out to dry. It’ll be interesting to see if any of them changes their reporting now.
They also interviewed the victim with Ray Rice and his lawyer sitting right next to her.
They at least finally admitted to cocking up their response. Now we can all see how badly they cocked it up.
Oh well, in the end, roger will probably get a raise out of it. SMH
feebog
Wha? You can get knocked flat out on your back by your boyfriend, but you still get charged with domestic violence?
Edit: Thanks Paulw for the explanation.
Cacti
@Betty Cracker:
I tend to think vehicular homicide is worse than domestic assault, but I keep forgetting that this is America, and the gravity of one’s offenses is inversely proportional to their pigmentation level.
The Other Chuck
@Cacti: I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean “inversely”, unless you think black men are getting off, uh, light.
Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
Unless they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Stewart did it on purpose, I’m not sure what the criminal case would be. Auto racing is dangerous, and people get killed in accidents. If a defensive lineman tackles someone during an NFL game and the player is paralyzed, do they arrest the lineman for aggravated assault?
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
Have you actually seen the video of what I’m talking about?
Betty Cracker
@Cacti: You’re comparing anvils to oranges. The cops are investigating the Stewart incident, as they should. But from what I’ve read, it’s in no way clear that Stewart deliberately ran the other fellow over. The guy did, after all, charge out into a race track at night wearing a black suit. ETA: And yes, I saw the Stewart video.
Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
Yes, I have. Do you feel confident that a prosecutor could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Stewart intended to kill the guy?
ETA: We’re also talking about an incident that occurred in the course of a race rather than, say, Stewart getting into a drunk-driving accident off the course. So I still want to know, if a football player kills or permanently injures another one during a game, should he be charged with manslaughter or aggravated assault?
LifeOnTheFallLine
I get the desire to punish Ray Rice for what he did wrong, but sending a violent abuser home from work to be with what he likely views as the source of his problems is not the answer.
The league already donates all of its fines to charitable causes, I see no reason why further fines cannot be levied with the express intent of funding women’s shelters, call lines and financial support for any spouse/partner of a player who is abused. At least if they’re allowed to keep playing that’s one day of the week the victims have available to escape.
What Rice did is deplorable and he should be punished, but that’s the job of the justice system. If the NFL wants to help the victims of their players’ rages there are better ways.
MattF
Many years ago, when I just sort of stopped watching the Redskins, I felt bad about it. They couldn’t help being mediocre, and I was being disloyal. But then– I happened to meet some women who had dated guys on the team. A couple were still in the ‘Some Enchanted Evening’ phase. But stories about the meds and about the drugs and about the anger were commonplace. Not your healthy situation.
cokane
The Ravens just announced that they cut him. https://twitter.com/Ravens/status/509043216977371136
Edmund Dantes
@Cacti: I’ve seen the video, and you know the first thing that entered my mind?
Holy shit!! This idiot got out of his car on a racetrack and then walked into oncoming track on an exit turn.
I know we aren’t supposed to blame the victim, but holy Jeebus!!
PaulW
Ray Rice just got cut from the Ravens.
Cacti
@Betty Cracker:
Which explains Stewart accelerating when under a caution flag, and swerving towards the dead guy how?
Then there’s his well documented history of using his car as a weapon. But hey, he’s got the complexion for the protection, ammiright?
srv
Why doesn’t BJ have a Fantasy Football Abuse League?
scav
@cokane: Behavior itself? No Prob. Bad Publicity! Instant out! I don’t think they’re handling it well, although at this point with these priors, they don’t have a lot of options, let alone good ones.
mack
Ravens just invalidated his contract.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
Poor comparison. The caution flag was out and Stewart was supposed to be slowing down. The two cars before him had no trouble avoiding the now dead guy. Stewart goosed the accelerator and swerved toward him.
Corner Stone
There’s nothing casual about the level of violence he used against his fiancee. That was vicious.
Then he casually drops her face down on the floor half in and half out of the elevator.
I’ve seen bits of it twice and to call it appalling is not even close.
I feel bad for her in a sense that she decided that marriage was a good decision and now will be economically punished right along with him.
Betty Cracker
@Cacti: Yeah, you’re right: the situations are exactly analogous, and anyone who wants Rice to get more than a two-game suspension for punching a woman out on camera who doesn’t also want Stewart clapped in irons for murder is obvious a stone-cold racist. There can be no other possible explanation since the situations are 100% identical in every respect. Thanks for clarifying that for us all.
Corner Stone
Even in the stretch that the NFL didn’t lay eyes on the full video, how the fuck did they think she came to be unconscious and on the floor?
Trollhattan
@cokane: @PaulW:
Thank goodness. Here’s hoping he doesn’t get held up as some kind of “martyr for menz rightz.” Here’s likewise hoping the GF-now-wife survives his inevitable anger at getting cut, all because he got caught. Clearly all her fault.
? Martin
And the Fox morning crew says the lesson from this is next time to take the stairs. Yeah, no cameras there. Bonus, you can shove that pushy chick down some stairs! Amirite guys?
Patrick
And right on cue, FoxNews is still suffering from the Obama Deragement Syndrome…
Fox News host Andrea Tantaros wasted no time during Monday’s episode of “Outnumbered” directing anger at President Obama and the Democrats over a video reportedly showing NFL star Ray Rice punching his then-fiancee in an elevator.
“I wanna know, where is the President on this one?” Tantaros asked, after a brief throat-clearing about the NFL’s obligation to react to the tape.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/andrea-tantaros-ray-rice-obama
If Obama had commented on this, they would wonder why he isn’t spending 100% on his time on ISIS.
? Martin
@Cacti: If he swerved toward him he would have been hit with the front of the car, not the back.
Come back when you understand how a sprint car works. It’s not like a regular car.
Corner Stone
And to think that that asshole Steven A. Smith had the disturbing insight to tell women (and everyone) that they should expect to get hit.
Cacti
@Betty Cracker:
Unlike Stewart, I have every expectation that Ray Rice will be punished to the fullest extent of the law for his illegal acts.
Stewart on the other hand, will get to use the “that’s jus’ ol’ Tony’s racin’ spirit” like he has for the rest of his violent behavior.
Trollhattan
@? Martin:
The hilarity over there never stops. Cretins.
WaynersT
Most disturbing part is how the guy seems completely unfazed. I can only assume that it must be pretty common for him. And it looks like he spits on her a couple of times ? – when she is walking past him and swats back, then again right when they get on the elevator. Unbelievable that the NFL is claiming they did not see this. Obviously there was going to be footage from inside the elevator. Willful ignorance to say the least.
Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
So if in the course of a football game, one player kills or seriously injures another, you think that player should be prosecuted for manslaughter or aggravated assault, right?
Cpl Cam
@Cacti: The thing is sprint cars aren’t like regular cars they turn via acceleration. Stewart had to accelerate to turn away from the kid. Due to that fact it’s pretty much impossible to tell from the video whether Stewart meant to hit him put not…
Trollhattan
@Cacti:
Don’t find the situations remotely analogous, myself, but will note that rednecks everywhere are still weepy, with be-stickered mourning trucks, over the entirely predictable racing death of a racer nicknamed “The Intimidator.” Well, duh.
Not, BTW, saying the dead guy deserved to get dead.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
So, if the game had stopped because a player was injured, and an opposing player ran over to stomp on him while he was down, you’d be okay with that then?
Hey look, I can do the straw man thingy too!
Cacti
@Cpl Cam:
And yet, the two cars before Stewart managed to avoid him without difficulty.
How strange.
marduk
@Betty Cracker: Ugh. Having just watched the video, that looked very deliberate to me. How else can one possibly explain him gunning the engine there? That happened near to where I live so it was all over the news and from the way the incident was reported i was NOT expecting to see what I saw. I’m amazed Stewart hasn’t been charged.
Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
Okay with it? No. But should the player be arrested and prosecuted for aggravated assault? That’s the question.
Since you’re the one who came up with the comparison between punching your girlfriend while off the field and hitting someone with a race car during a race, you don’t now get to complain that I handed you an apple when you wanted an orange.
RareSanity
@Corner Stone:
That’s not what he said…
The entire thought that Steven A. Smith was trying to communicate was that this was probably not the first incident of Ray Rice showing a violent temper…and that if she made an aggressive move toward him, what did she expect would happen.
Was the thought inappropriate on so many levels? Yes.
Did he say that women, in general, should “expect” to get hit? No. No he did not.
Clearly he was being extremely insensitive, or ignorant, to all of the emotional issues that occur in abusive relationships. But time and time again…even outside of this particular event…he has said that there is NEVER a reason for a man to ever hit a woman.
I’m not attempting to defend his statement about this particular situation, because it was just bad. There’s no way around that. But, I will defend the fact that he has been stringently against domestic violence of any sort during his media appearances.
He even stated how much the NFL was screwing this whole thing up, even before he made that other comment.
Ella in New Mexico
What the NFL and the Ravens did to punish Rice is just the bottom of a giant shit-pile of just how screwed up our society still is, some 40 years into the anti-domestic violence movement in the US.
The woman he punched the daylights out of was charged with assault–until the video proved they were wrong. Think about that. This ironic little bit of reverse sexism is how law enforcement gets to continue to blame the victims in these relationships.
@Betty Cracker:
.Exactly why she married him. The complex and winding road that she must have experienced in her life which allowed her to rationalize his abuse (maybe even including her own mind-fuck- guilt that she has a “temper” and may have “instigated” things by opening her mouth) has told her that this is what she deserves. It’s so complicated to fix the pain of childhood, which is a huge reason this damn problem persists.
lamh36
Somebody said so the NFL can hire PI ti investigate every Draft picks GF, BF, side piece and baby momma, but they “never” knew about the video???? Yeah right
Who knows why she still married him. Maybe she was afraid for her life. Maybe he threatened her or threatened to take away support for her family, we don’t know. Whateva the case doesn’t make her less of a victim.
Geeno
That’s the problem with the Stewart thing. They’ll never be able to prove it. I guy I work with saw it in person, and he thinks Stewart did nothing wrong. I have found that to be the common opinion of racing fans. Even if all those people are wrong, that still means it’s going to be a tough sell for the prosecutor to get a conviction.
Cacti
@marduk:
.
Is it really that amazing?
Michael Brown was shot to death in the middle of a public street, for reasons that the local police have done everything they can to obfuscate.
Meanwhile, this 19 year old girl in Pennsylvania hit 3 different cars with a BMW, fled the scene, resisted arrest, and kicked the apprehending officer in the head, but didn’t get shot, tasered, or beaten with night sticks. Wanna guess which racial group she belongs to?
boatboy_srq
@LifeOnTheFallLine: Interesting suggestion. So, rather than weeks of suspension, substitute weeks where gross pay is docked and the funds paid directly to domestic abuse facilities or support entities? Seems like a worthwhile suggestion.
@Trollhattan: This doesn’t exactly do either the Ravens or Ms. Rice any favors. Now they have egg all over their faces, and he gets to go home to his wife for FSM knows how long. Anyone here have any stats on how the respective local PD takes to respond?
@Cacti: I’m not so sure: remember his wife is just as Other as he is, and there’ll be counterbalancing disinterest from law enforcement because slutty sluts being slutty.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Cacti: He’s white! It was an accident!
///
RobertB
@marduk: What Cpl Cam said above in #42. Those sprint cars turn left when you give them more gas in a left turn. I think Tony Stewart is a full-bore jerkass, but I’m sold that hitting that guy was an accident.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@PaulW:
Sounds like a certain employer I know, but in reverse. They came to a conclusion, so now they’re smarter than cops. We may talk about #cops a lot but it’s amazing how middle management always manages to take things one clownish stage further.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Juju: Some people would consider it a bargain, depending on how awful their lives were beforehand. I can’t speak for Ms. Rice. She obviously thinks it’s worth it.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Juju: I’m sure he apologized and said he would never, ever do it again. These kinds of freaks are good at finding caring, generous people and convincing them that they really want to be better and that the abused spouse can ‘fix’ them, just give them one more chance.
Corner Stone
@RareSanity: Yeah, I probably did not accurately capture his stance / statements. It was a bad paraphrase.
I remember being gobsmacked he’d go where he did so probably short-circuited the context.
I will stand by my thoughts that he is an asshole and I disagreed with his off balance statements.
Betty Cracker
@marduk: I don’t follow NASCAR or have any clue how the sprint cars’ steering mechanism works, but people who do follow it for a living say it’s impossible to know for sure whether Stewart meant to hit the dude or not. It seems like there’s a lot more reasonable doubt on that question than whether or not Rice meant to punch his girlfriend in the head.
RareSanity
@Cacti:
Because the victim was actually trying to be seen by Tony Stewart, so he came even farther down the track when his car was approaching.
Look…I’m no racing fan, and definitely no expert on racing in general. But from what I have heard about this incident, its just not possible for someone to know…without a shadow of a doubt, that Tony Stewart intended to hit that other driver.
Couple that with the fact that, apparently, the design of these particular cars makes them difficult to steer like a “normal”, road legal, vehicle. The rear tires don’t adjust their revolutions per minute when turning like other cars do, which is why they basically slide around turns in races, instead of just “turning” the regular way.
There are soooo many examples of uneven treatment due to race in this country, that trying to compare these two events, and the handling of them, through a purely racial perspective, is not going to stand up to scrutiny.
Law enforcement is investigating the incident with Tony Stewart. If they think he intentionally struck the victim, they’ll charge him. Unfortunately, because this was such a small event without the multiple angle HD video of a NASCAR race, there just may not be enough evidence to prove what happen one way of the other.
I think the lack of video is more a factor in the difference of the two cases than race.
bemused
@scav:
So who hasn’t thought about pulling out that underwear crawling up your butt or something equally embarrassing while alone on an elevator and thought better of it just in case there was a security camera.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Looks like I’m in the minority here, but I think Tony Stewart absolutely meant to kill Kevin Ward. And he’ll get away with it not because of his skin color, but because Ward gave him the perfect alibi – he walked out into the middle of a crowded racetrack, wearing black.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Mnemosyne: As a commercial driver with a background in transportation engineering, let me just say this: there is no such thing as an accident.
There are, however, multiple decision points where one can choose to be reckless.
In my world there are “preventable” and “non-preventable” accidents. I have yet to see the “non-preventable” that wasn’t caused by a human being; it’s only ruled “non” because the party at fault was not the commercial driver in question.
You want an “accident”? A small plane breaks up in the air over the highway and
chunks rainEDIT: rains chunks [wow] on the cars below. That’s an accident.Angle crashes in intersections on rainy days and lightposts that swerve into your front end at 3AM are not accidents.
“Buzzing” a human being knowing full well that your tail end hunts from side to side is not an accident.
M31
On Baltimore area sports talk radio this morning (after the video was released but before Rice was cut) I heard two successive callers say 1) “sometimes you have to just knock your woman out” (the announcers told him he was a horrible person and cut his mic, and 2) (a woman) “after what that bitch did, punching Ray and spitting on him, she deserved it”.
Holy shit, people.
Sports talk announcer guys aren’t the most enlightened bunch in the world, but they were appalled.
Trollhattan
Meanwhile over on the left coast, Ray McDonald played Sunday after being arrested on Labor Day weekend for alleged felony domestic abuse against his pregnant fiance. The coach notes the team has a “zero tolerance” policy WRT domestic violence.
Waynski
The NFL just suspended Ray Rice indefinitely.
Mnemosyne
@RareSanity:
@Another Holocene Human (now with new computer):
One thought: I think that NASCAR and all of the other racing organizations that Stewart is associated with would be best served to completely ban him from all professional tracks for a full year because at best Stewart tried to pull a dangerous maneuver as a “fuck you” to the guy and killed him by mistake.
But, again, suspending someone from the league for dangerous play is not the same thing as suspending someone for off-field behavior. Cacti is still looking at apples and trying to convince us that they’re really oranges.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@LifeOnTheFallLine:
I get it, let’s coddle bullies, never confront them about their actions and let them think that we all approve of a good wife beating, who wouldn’t, wink wink?
Never exacting consequences for anti-social behavior is a known way to reduce recidivism and make rainbows and puppies shoot out of the worst sociopath’s ass.
/// not intended to be a factual statement
AxelFoley
@Cacti:
Exactly.
I’ve heard people say that this probably wasn’t Rice’s first time hitting his then-fiance or previous girlfriends (and they may be right), but Stuart DOES have a documented history of using his car as a weapon. And what do we see when he returned to the track? People cheering for him, feeling sorry for his ass.
Not defending Rice, as he deserves the league coming down hard on him, but killing a man seems to be the bigger crime. Now one man has his livelihood taken away from him, while the other gets to go on after taking a life.
Complexion for the protection indeed.
RareSanity
@Corner Stone:
He can be, all at once…annoying/boorish/arrogant and insightful on a broad range of topics, it what makes him compelling.
I just happen to be a sports fan, so I see a lot of him…and within the span of a 30 minute show, he can have me go from…”Damn you are a stupid asshole”, to “Man, that was extremely insightful…never thought about it like that.” His thoughts on race in professional sports are extremely lucid, well thought out, and thought provoking.
He manages to mix most of it with a pretty good sense of humor, which makes him pretty entertaining….most of the time. But he is definitely a “love him, or hate him” kind of personality.
The kind of person that is perfect for American media.
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne:
That depends on the circumstances. I would have supported criminal charges for Charles Martin’s mugging of Jim McMahon; it was clearly assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm, even though it happened on the field during a game.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Edmund Dantes:
Well, unlike you and many other commenters on this blog as it it seems, I have actually had angry men shaking their fists jump in front of a moving, very heavy, very dangerous vehicle that I was operating and even though I got really angry too I managed not to accidentally-on-purpose frag them.
I went around them. Or I stopped. Even if it inconvenienced me.
A fucking race is not worth someone’s life. Btw, I was also under time pressure with dollar signs attached.
There is NO fucking excuse!
Eric U.
@CONGRATULATIONS!: there is no way in the world that Stewart meant to kill Ward. At the worst, I would believe that he saw him at the last minute, decided to spray him with dirt and miscalculated. But even that is a stretch and with no communications, Stewart didn’t know Ward was after him. All b.s. aside, the Ward almost got run over by the car in front of Stewart, but but jumped back — and he didn’t want to stop that car. He apparently did want to stop Stewart so they could have a friendly discussion.
Mnemosyne
@AxelFoley:
As I said above, I think Stewart should be banned from all professional racing for at least a year by the racing organizations, but that’s not the same as him being arrested and prosecuted for manslaughter. Whether he killed the guy “on purpose” or not shouldn’t matter to NASCAR and the other organizations since they should be primarily interested in safety, and Stewart has clearly shown that he’s a danger to the other racers.
Which, again, is not the same thing as being penalized and criminally prosecuted for your off-field behavior.
Cacti
@AxelFoley:
As with you, no one will find me defending anything that Ray Rice has done here. I just see it as another instance of the white sports media being awfully selective about who they call out the tar and feathers for.
It’s rather like after all the morass in MLB about performance enhancing drugs, Congressional hearings, and righteous posturing about protecting the children…
The only guy convicted of anything was Barry Bonds.
MaryRC
@beth: Not only did she marry Rice — according to Peter King she testified on his behalf to Goodell at a hearing, saying he had never hit her before or since.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Roger Moore: The general legal standard is that one has consented to the ordinary sorts of physical violence that take place in the game by stepping onto the field. The would even include actions that result in penalties and suspensions. One doesn’t consent to physical violence that is not an ordinary part of the game. The line would probably drawn in football at the difference between a fist fight at the end of a play and someone pulling a knife.
scav
@Another Holocene Human (now with new computer): Amusing how people screach “think of the families! think of the economic consequences on the innocents!” when it’s the wealthy that get caught, but all “Broken Windows” and “Lessons Learned through Real Consequences! when you’re a single mother trying to get an job interview or just someone living with generous melanin in Saint Louis County.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Cacti:
To be fair this sounds like a lot of shaky Class D/E operators scared that they could get in an accident some day that they “never saw coming” and scared they would end up in jail over a mistake so they want to give this guy and his depraved indifference to human life a pass.
What they don’t realize is that a small minority of car/pickup/SUV drivers cause the majority of the accidents, which all drivers have to pay for in their insurance and so on. That despite what their sister’s husband’s cousin’s plumber SWEARS coulda mighta totally happened that vehicle collisions don’t just happen bicyclists don’t pop out of wormholes in front of you yellow hazard turn speed signs weren’t planted there by greedy cops and the crazy person on the road might just be you, especially if you never learned how to use side mirrors or scan 10 seconds ahead or have some serious Dunning-Kruger that involves dialing your phone every 15 seconds while navigating a commercial drive with strip mall driveways every 300 meters or less.
I used to lightly tap my horn to remind sedan drivers playing on their laptops (true story!!) that the green turn arrow had illuminated and they called ME the bad guy. :D
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@scav:
Yup, I agree.
justawriter
Now they call him Minute Rice because he’s already cooked.
Trollhattan
@MaryRC:
Does anybody actually believe that, beginning with her?
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Mnemosyne:
Let’s say it’s a baseball game and a pitcher beans a batter with a ball, in clear violation of the rules, causing grievous bodily harm. Does that change your calculation any?
What if a football player grabs the front of a helmet and twists, causing a cervical injury that leads to a fatal stroke 12 hours later?
It’s one thing to say someone is following the rules of their workplace in good faith and somebody gets killed. Then the owners are negligent. It’s another thing to violate safety rules and harm someone. Don’t you agree?
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Mnemosyne:
Hold up, hold up–you’re arguing that an injured player being curbed stomped with cleats by an opposing team player is NOT criminal assault?
That is what you’re saying, right?
I hope I’m wrong.
Mnemosyne
@Another Holocene Human (now with new computer):
I agree that there should be a league penalty, as I have stated several times. You seem to think that there should be a criminal prosecution for such behavior, correct?
Note that Omnes noted above that things that happen within the ordinary course of a game — like a beanball, or a helmet twist — are generally considered legally to be one of the risks of the game. Which prosecutor is going to bet his/her career on getting a criminal prosecution for aggravated assault for a beanball that happens during a game?
gene108
@WaynersT:
And what subpoena powers does the NFL have?
How can they compel anyone to handover surveillance videos, if the person refuses?
I do not know what went down between the hotel and the NFL, with regards to this video, but people seem to think the NFL is on par with local law enforcement or the Feds, with being able to compel people or businesses to “help” them out with their investigations.
Mnemosyne
@Another Holocene Human (now with new computer):
IANAL, but <a href="Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name) “>Omnes (who is one) said this above:
Kay (not the front-pager)
@Juju: Keep in mind, and I’m not being facetious here, she was unconscious through most of it. That, combined with possible/probable amnesia for events shortly before and after the severe head trauma, means she has only an abstract awareness of the incident. But she has a visceral awareness of how sweet, loving and apologetic he was right after the incident.
I know it sounds crazy, but I’ve seen it (and experienced it); When people lose consciousness, they just seem to minimize the episode and what caused the episode. For example, my dad lost consciousness at dinner one night when basically his heart stopped beating, but tried to refuse a trip to the emergency room. When he came to (10 minutes later) he felt fine and didn’t see what all the fuss was about.I had a few accidental head injuries when I was a kid (ADHD, an accident waiting to happen), and I have no memory of events in the half hour surrounding the incidents. I was told by doctors that that is very common with head trauma.
This tendency to minimize what we do not remember experiencing, combined with Betty Cracker’s observation that we accept the love we think we deserve, combined with a tendency to minimize and rationalize the bad behavior of loved ones, may explain the incomprehensible fact that she went on to marry him.
As I IMed my son this afternoon, I wonder if she has seen the whole tape. It might be a wake-up call actually to see the the events and the callousness with which he treated her.
Trollhattan
@Mnemosyne:
Need to note the Saints bounty scandal, in which players were rewarded, with cash, for inflicting injury on opposing players during a game. The coach was suspended for one year. Did that not tell us everything we need to know about pro football?
WaterGirl
I wonder if the fiancé, now wife, has viewed the complete video. It’s one thing to believe what the abusive liar you love says to your face – including that you provoked or deserved it – but I suspect it’s another thing to see the video.
The Thin Black Duke
I pray to God that Mrs. Rice doesn’t wind up as just another “statistic”.
marduk
@RobertB: I certainly believe that it would be hard to prove that Stewart intended to murder Ward in a court of law. It’s entirely possible he just meant to scare him, or bump him. But I don’t see how anyone can watch that video impartially and doubt that Stewart meant to swing his car into him. Like the cars before him, he is slowly and smoothly navigating the turn. Unlike the cars before him, when he comes adjacent to his victim he opens up the throttle and throws the car into him. Turn up the sound and take note of the ONLY engine revving. There’s no accident there.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@RareSanity: See, I could see that argument until you get to the little fact that these racing cars are much broader than a human being.
And a successful race car driver has to avoid other cars over and over and over–as well as the track edges–or get put out of the race.
So how does this guy avoid all the other cars, and the edges, and the pit crews, etc, etc, anything that would cause him to lose, yet gets dangerously close to this one human being?
I don’t think he meant to kill, I think he meant to frighten but didn’t care if he did risk killing him, and to me that is depraved indifference to human life and should be Murder 3 with some serious time attached.
But that’s just me. I had to make a decision many times back when I was using that CDL whether my ego or someone’s safety on the road was more important and I know what I chose.
Bostondreams
@Cacti: Actually, Ray Rice won’t get punished by the law at all in this case anymore than he has, which was I believe counselling.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@M31: They got past the screeners.
polyorchnid octopunch
@Mnemosyne: Yes. SATSQ.
Mnemosyne
@Trollhattan:
Right, but IIRC none of those players were arrested by the police and prosecuted for aggravated assault.
With the police investigation of the Stewart incident, I’m assuming that will be more important for the (I assume) upcoming lawsuit brought by his victim’s family and for the racing organizations to decide on his punishment than for a legal prosecution, but I could be wrong.
Kay (not the front-pager)
@Kay (not the front-pager): For some reason I didn’t have permission to edit my comment, but I wanted to add that by using words like head trauma and examples like my father’s medical LOC and my accidents, I in no way mean to minimize the reprehensible violence Rice inflicted on his fiancee. As I told my son this afternoon, I didn’t think the elevator tape could possibly put this in a worse light, but I was wrong. I’ve seen the results of worse battery – I used to work in a battered women’s shelter – but the callousness of this was truly shocking.
J.W. Hamner
I have a lot of trouble believing the NFL and/or Ravens didn’t see this video… but even if we grant that as true… can someone explain why Ray Rice isn’t in jail? We have to assume the New Jersey prosecutors saw this video, right?
Perhaps a lawyer can explain why they offered him a deal that amounted to probation and an anger management class?
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Mnemosyne: So you’re arguing that the field during game time is a magical zone where American law doesn’t apply, maybe like ‘war by another name’? Fascinating.
Schlemizel
@Roger Moore:
I think anyone who saw any number of the on ice assaults that have taken place in the NHL and their feeder programs and not thought “Why is that asshole not in jail?” needs to seek help. The NFL is not as bad simply because they do not allow players to carry clubs during the game. Plus running over someone is considered part of the play. There have been plenty of hits that could have been investigated though.
Mnemosyne
@Another Holocene Human (now with new computer):
That’s what our local lawyer tells me, as I linked to above. If you have legal training and can argue the point with Omnes, please do so.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Cacti: I would mention a certain blackity black football player nailed to the wall for dogfighting but that would just have white dog lovers jumping in here claiming that’s different from when all their favorite white football players rape and commit assault and rape and get in DUIs because REASONS. Reasons, people. Now, won’t anybody think of the innocent puppies? Pup. Pies.
Pogonip
@RareSanity: Well, I’d say THAT woman should indeed expect to get hit. It’s going to happen over and over again and there may be no way out; he may kill her if she leaves him.
Bostondreams
@J.W. Hamner:
Rice’s victim supported his going into a program and wouldn’t testify against him, claiming this was a one time thing and that she wasn’t injured.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne:
I would be interested in seeing the evidence that Stewart’s vehicle striking the other driver was anything more than a terrible accident – made all the more likely since the other driver put himself in extreme jeopardy by walking where humans were not supposed to be (because it is too dangerous).
I do not know enough about racing or about Stewart to know if he truly has clearly shown that he’s a danger to the other racers. Seems like a statement open to at least some objective proof. What would that be? Who evaluates such dangers in a very dangerous sport?
Look, in my anti-NASCAR bias, I figured that Stewart was just an inbred good ol boy gone wrong….then folks, some of whom post here regularly, began to talk about the actually conditions on that track and the conditions in those particular type of highly over-designed racing cars.
As a liberal, I hate the waste of gasoline, but more than that I hate when the presumption of innocence is ignored. I get uncomfortable when bias clouds the effort of objective analysis – even if it is a bias that favors ideas that I support.
And those who are using the sad Stewart affair as some sort of lame inkblot test for the state of race relations are making a parody of a serious issue.
Randy Khan
I think it’s fair to say that the NFL screwed this one up from beginning to (almost) end. I particularly find the conflict between having apparently told a bunch of reporters that Goodell or whoever had seen the whole tape and today’s denials that the whole tape had been in their possession to be more than disturbing.
On the comments about sending him home to her, I get the concern, but the NFL and the Ravens have only blunt instruments here. In an ideal universe, you’d want them to suspend him and require him to go to some kind of residential program, but that’s not an option. At this point, they just want him out of the league.
And, finally, I saw what Stephen A. Smith said, in context, and he still was very wrong. He implied – heck, came very close to saying directly – that women should know that men can be violent and therefore shouldn’t provoke them. As a man, I’m insulted by that, but it’s also of a piece with “don’t wear short skirts if you don’t want to be raped.” The victim is not the cause of the crime.
J.W. Hamner
@Bostondreams:
Why would they need her testimony? The video evidence seems, ahem, clear.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Mnemosyne: I read that comment too and he said there is a line. I’m sure both the actions of the league as well as local prosecutors and so on determine where that line actually is. You’re still arguing that there is none.
Btw, a pitcher beaning a batter is considered a LOT more serious than getting involved in a dugout-clearing brawl. The MLB will come down immediately on that as I’m sure they don’t want another homicide.
Eric U.
I have seen stuff in Hockey, “that was a good, clean hit” that should be prosecuted. If you end someone’s career by punching them in the jaw, which is apparently legal in hockey, you should be prosecuted. There was a case where there was a prosecution, but that was very controversial even though the injury was severe. The legal beating of other player with sticks is really why I stopped watching. I can see why running someone into the boards is legal, but an uppercut with a fist full of stick should not be. I suspect that’s why hockey is a minor sport
Suzanne
I remember a couple of years ago on a thread that I made mention of Ben Roethlisberger committing rape, and how people on good conscience shouldn’t support his team, as we shouldn’t give money, fame, or social respectability to those who commit crimes against women. I was told to shut up.
I think the NFL is doing the right thing (finally), and in part because people can continue to support them and not feel bad about themselves. Whatever. Abusers shouldn’t get to have jobs, or freedom, or money.
Cacti
@Schlemizel:
Hockey is an interesting example, because it’s the only major North American sport I know of where civil authorities have found in game behavior to cross the line of being criminal. In both cases, it was a player using his stick as a weapon against another (Marty McSorley on Donald Brashear, Dino Ciccarelli on Luke Richardson). Both were also convicted of assault.
Roger Moore
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
My feeling is that Martin’s attack on McMahon was beyond the ordinary risks of the game. It wasn’t just an overly aggressive cheap shot or a fight that got started because somebody couldn’t keep his temper under control. It was a premeditated assault. Martin testified that before the game he was given a list of Bears players he was supposed to injure, and his attack on McMahon- which was well away from the play and more or less irrelevant to the action on the field- has to be understood in that context.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
I’m mostly going by what racing fans have told me, but Stewart had a reputation for recklessness even before the fatal accident. And, yes, I do think that there should be a very serious penalty for killing someone during a race, even if it’s an accident.
Ella in New Mexico
@Kay (not the front-pager): All that you say is a possible part of the rationale for her supporting him after the attack. But very unlikely.
But in my 15 years working in the DV field, I can pretty much promise post-concussion amnesia had very little to do with her choice to marry him and try to get the charges dropped. His apparently sincere apologies and sad, wounded pleas for forgiveness, her own deeply-embedded beliefs that this is just how relationships are when you love someone, coupled with the pressure coming from all sides including his family, his attorney, his friends to not “ruin his career”…it also does not help that the shitty police charged her with assault at first, further undermining her sense of who was responsible here.
I would, however, like to know just how many concussions or near-concussions Rice has had. Even serial, minor head injuries can change someone into a person who has a very short fuse who perceives any insult as a threat and will use violence before his frontal lobe can process the fact that it’s inappropriate. Not an excuse, mind you, for being a frigging pit-bull, just an explanation for why so many of these guys seem to have violence issues.
It’s all so complicated, until you realize it’s really quite simple. Or not.
EDIT: @Kay (not the front-pager): Good to see a fellow DV advocate here!!
Betty Cracker
@Another Holocene Human (now with new computer):
Which white dog lovers here at Balloon Juice do you imagine would excuse assault, rape, etc., committed by white football players? Please be specific.
Mnemosyne
@Another Holocene Human (now with new computer):
I’m arguing that the line is where Omnes says it is — when a player action is outside of the ordinary type of play. So a beanball would be considered a risk of the game, while pulling a knife on another player during a brawl would not be. Obviously, your line is somewhere else, but you’re not being very clear where. Should prosecutors be on the sidelines of every game to watch the play for prosecutable offenses?
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
Omnes is correct.
As noted in 113 though, charging someone with a crime for in game conduct isn’t without precedent.
The last time it happened was when Marty McSorley cold cocked Donald Brashear in the back of the head with a hockey stick, knocked him unconscious, and gave him a grade III concussion.
McSorley was convicted of assault with a weapon and sentenced to 18 months probation.
WaterGirl
I would love to see someone front page this article by Dave Zirin:
The Revictimizing of Janay Rice
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker: Cole told me to be quiet when I brought up Roethlisberger’s drugging a woman and raping her.
Keith G
@Another Holocene Human (now with new computer):
Good for you.
And what model of sprint car were you racing at the time? On what track? What were the conditions?
Eric U.
@Mnemosyne: I have real questions about making throwing the ball at a batter part of baseball. It doesn’t seem right that some pitchers effectively have that as a very big part of reason for their success. The AL certainly screwed things up with the DH, now a pitcher can work longer because they can throw at people without having to worry about being thrown at in retribution.
RobertB
@marduk: I had a two-hour argument with my brother, making that exact same point that you’re making. “Why the hell would you speed up to avoid him? He was trying to fishtail and whap him with the car’s tail-end. That’s Negligent Homicide, at best!”
It turns out those cars have to speed up to turn. I saw a lot of experienced sprint car drivers weighing in on the intarwebs with this: sprint cars don’t have rear differentials, and they _want_ to turn left. To make the sharpest left turn in the car that you can, you give it the gas. That outside right wheel goes faster and pushes the car around more quickly than cutting the wheel will. None of these drivers were the least bit shocked to hear Stewart’s car give it the gas on the video.
I’m not a Tony Stewart fan – his public persona is, ‘Asshole, at best’. But I don’t think he hit that guy on purpose. Even if I’m feeling particularly grouchy and think that he _did_ mess with him, he’ll never get prosecuted unless he gets drunk and tells a whole bar full of NASCAR haters that he’s actually responsible.
Edit: I have to remember left vs. right. :(
Mnemosyne
@Cacti:
I think it’s pretty easy to argue that hitting someone from behind is not an ordinary part of playing hockey. Still not sure that hitting a driver who ran out onto the track to confront another driver is equally as out of the ordinary.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: You might want to search again. The linked article does not support your thesis.
Mnemosyne
@Eric U.:
It gets tricky, though, because getting hit with the ball is an ordinary risk of the game — there are genuine accidental hits on batters by pitchers, plus things like getting hit by a line drive or a hard foul. The beanball problem is probably better handled through the league than by putting pitchers in handcuffs at the end of a game.
kc
@Cacti:
Are you fucking kidding?
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
No?
The article is talking about Stewart’s recklessness in admiring terms, but that’s what it’s saying — Stewart takes chances that other drivers don’t take. One of the chances he took after that article was written killed a man. So, again, it supports my contention that Stewart was well-known and even admired for taking dangerous chances even before he killed another driver.
kc
@AxelFoley:
You’re basically defending him AND derailing thd conversation about DV. Congrats.
Schlemizel
@Eric U.:
How about jumping on a guys back & then smashing his face into the ice so violently he is permanently disabled? Or hooking a player in the face so hard it smashed the orbital bones, pops the eye out & blinds the player? When the district attorney threatened to file suit over that he had the NHL and a legion of fans screaming in outrage. The injured player in both cases never played in the NHL again while the assailant went on to continue their career.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Another Holocene Human (now with new computer):
No one is arguing that, except maybe Mnemosyne, who misunderstood what Omnes said. American law does apply on the field of a sporting event. However, the boundaries of what constitutes a tort or crime get pushed back a long ways. By agreeing to play, you consent to the standard risks of the game. In baseball, it means that you have consented to the risk of being hit in the head with a baseball. In football, it means that you have consented to the possibility that someone is going to grab your facemask and twist during the course of play. In hockey, at least at the NHL level, it means that you have consented to the possibility that someone is going to start punching you in the head.
All of these things are incidental to the play of the game and even if they are premeditated, punishment by the league is all that awaits the perpetrator. If you don’t want to give that consent, don’t play those sports as a professional. Where the line gets drawn in lower level league and especially in amateur and recreational leagues is different, as seen in the recent conviction of Gordon MacIsaac for actions during a no-check, recreational hockey league game.
But, no, it isn’t a space where the law doesn’t operate. It’s that the law is a lot more complex in these situations than you realize.
Betty Cracker
@Suzanne: I read a few of the Roethlisberger threads at the time, and I sure don’t recall that being representative of Cole’s attitude. IIRC, he said something like Roethlisberger is at best a dick and possibly a criminal, depending on the outcome of the investigation. The accusation that white dog lovers at Balloon Juice don’t give a shit about rape and assault committed by white football players is bullshit in general and bullshit specifically in the case of Cole, IMO.
AxelFoley
@kc:
Are you?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2014/09/03/brian-france-tony-stewart-richmond-race/15027799/
Mnemosyne
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
I never argued that. As usual, AHH decided to ignore what I actually said which was — surprise! — to point AHH back to Omnes’s point.
AxelFoley
@kc:
Fuck you, asshole. How about that?
kc
@AxelFoley:
Right back atcha. Keep caping for Ray Rice.
kc
One thing I don’t understand: We already KNEW Rice knocked her out. He was getting off easy. Why are people so much more outraged now that there’s more video?
AxelFoley
@kc: Eat a dick, chump. No, eat a whole plate of ’em.
Cacti
@Betty Cracker:
Shocked.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Eric U.:
You might have questions about it but a century and a half of history pretty clearly establishes that that is a risk you consent to if you play baseball at the professional level.
@Mnemosyne:
Wrong. It’s extremely easy to argue that hitting from behind is an ordinary part of playing hockey and borderline ludicrous to argue that it isn’t, at least at the professional level. Again, the dividing line is not whether or not something is within the rules of the game. It’s whether or not it is something that you should reasonably expect to happen within the course of play. And since checking is allowed in professional hockey, someone checking you from behind is something that a reasonable person should anticipate will happen to them during a game. So you have assumed the risk of it happening by agreeing to play.
Actions that take place after play is stopped will face a different level of scrutiny than those that happen during play, because the reasonable expectations are different. And even within play there are lines that can be crossed that raise an action to the level of being criminal, as Marty McSorley learned. But they pretty much have to be something that you very rarely see to rise above the level of what you have given consent to.
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker: I wouldn’t say that Cole doesn’t give a shit about rape, but he didn’t give enough of a shit to stop supporting the team while Roethlisberger was playing. Having a rapist on the payroll was not a dealbreaker.
Betty Cracker
@kc: For the same reason a picture is worth a thousand words: It’s immediate. It’s visceral. It can’t be spun as if there were any excuse at all for it. Apparently that’s what it took for Rice’s teammates, who initially supported Rice because he said he was defending himself until they saw the whole encounter on tape. It shouldn’t take video, but sometimes it does.
Also, entries are now closed for “Dumbest Use of Rice Incident to Flog Your Particular Hobbyhorse” now that Fox News idiot Andrea Tantaros has weighed in with “Where is the president on this one?”
kc
@AxelFoley:
New Rice thread upstairs. Best hurry if you want to derail it early.
Betty Cracker
@Cacti: Well, if I’m wrong, maybe you can find a link that illustrates the truth of the accusation. A link, mind you, not the patchwork quotes you occasionally cobble together sans context to misrepresent an opponent in an argument.
drkrick
@Cacti:
The two cars before him weren’t the ones Mr. Ward was charging. I don’t know whether Stewart did everything he could have done to avoid hitting the kid, but to claim that Stewart has a “well documented” record that should make anyone think he was trying to hurt him is pretty fanciful.
Schlemizel
@kc:
Total guess work here:
The police originally charged both with domestic violence so there may have been some belief (real or fig leaf in nature) that the KO was the result of a mutual tiff (forget that one of the two combatants out weighted, had a longer reach and physical skills that made it a mismatch). That sort of wiggle room gives people cover to do a lot of things. The video may have removed that
I refuse to watch it. _IF_ I wanted to watch a prize fight I would rather it was a contest between equals. In my youth I stopped at a bar after work at night that was not a family friendly place. I saw more than a few fights break out between drunks, most handled with minimum violence by a couple of professional bouncers. But one time I saw a guy pick a fight & get his ass kicked. His girl friend decided to step in & throw a couple of punches – which got her knocked down very hard. At that point I believe she chose to be a combatant, a really really bad choice given the situation. I just stopped going there because I didn’t care to experience those sorts of things. I don’t blame that guy in the bar, he was already in a fight. But in most cases a guy will be bigger, stronger and a better puncher than a woman & he should look for ways other than proving that no matter the provocation.
kc
@Betty Cracker:
Oh, for the love of Christ …
Roger Moore
@AxelFoley:
The saying is “Eat a bag of salted dicks.”
Mnemosyne
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
I freely admit that I don’t know hockey as well as you do, but even I have heard of “high sticking.” Wouldn’t hitting someone in the back of the head from behind count as high sticking, or does that penalty only get called when you hit someone from the front?
I agree that it would be reasonable to file criminal charges based on an in-game action that would normally cause a penalty to be called, since by definition that’s outside of the ordinary play of the game, but I honestly am not familiar enough with the rules of any particular sport to say what is and isn’t a penalty for a specific sport.
Cacti
@Betty Cracker:
Demanding proof and then hedging on what you’ll accept in the following sentence.
Awesome.
Keep swabbing JC’s ample rump.
Mnemosyne
@Mnemosyne:
ARGH! FYWP is not letting me edit. Please note that in the first graf above, it should read “hitting someone in the back of the head from behind with your stick count as high sticking”
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Mnemosyne: There is a difference between what McSorley did and ordinary stick fouls. It is not an ordinary risk of the game that someone will wield his stick like the French executioner who took of Ann Boleyn’s head. As JMN noted, prosecutions for violence on the field of play have happened, but are almost vanishingly rare. The generally require that play be more or less stopped or occur so far away from that action that it is not possible to believe that they had anything to do with the game and they tend to be of a level or type of violence well beyond the ordinary levels within the game.
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne:
As I understand what Omes said, something does not count as outside the ordinary play of the game just because there’s a penalty against it. Penalties happen, and you have accepted that you might be on the receiving end of one by playing. Even suspensions happen, so you have accepted that you might be the victim of conduct worthy of a suspension by playing. Something outside the ordinary play of the game would be something so egregious that nobody has bothered considering that it might happen.
For example, baseball players will occasionally have on-the-field fights. Those fights are often punished with suspensions. That doesn’t mean that a player could be criminally charged for getting into a fist fight on the field; it happens enough that it has to be considered an ordinary risk of playing. OTOH, it is universally understood that the batting team drops their bats when a fight starts and limits themselves to hands and feet. If a player
hit(correction: attacked) somebody with his bat, that would be so unusual it would fall outside of ordinary play and could result in criminal charges.Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Mnemosyne: Again the distinction IS NOT whether a given action is against the rules of the game and merits a penalty. It’s whether it’s reasonable to expect that it will happen during the course of a game. Something that would constitute a high sticking penalty in the course of play, even an egregious one, will almost never (as in maybe once a decade and probably less than that) rise to the level that it merits legal action outside the structure of the league. When you play professional hockey, you are assuming the risks and consequences not only of actions that are not penalties, but almost all of them that are.
It is only if something goes beyond what you could normally expect to happen to you, penalty or not, that the legal system could become involved. If you play professional hockey, you should assume that someone is going to hit you with a high stick or check you from behind. If you play professional football, you should assume that someone is going to garb your face mask and twist. These are penalties, but they are also ordinary occurences of play and you have assumed the risk that they will happen and waived the right to claim a tort or crime if they happen.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Roger Moore: Exactly.
kc
@Cacti:
So you got nothing.
What a surprise.
Ruckus
@Roger Moore:
He’s trying to not be that nice and letting the other person have a little salt for taste.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
A second part is that no one actually has to take part in professional sports and each professional sport has set rules and regulations that guide the conduct of the players and set penalties for the violation taking place on the field of play of said rules/regulations. The law is generally not inclined to get involved as long as the sporting body takes action within the rule structure of the sport, unless the action of the participant(s) is so egregious as to warrant criminal penalties. This is my understanding from lawyers involved in the professional sport that I worked in.
Drug testing would be an example. A positive test might result in a suspension or probation, but I never saw that go outside the organization or a participant get in any criminal trouble arising from that event. An actual assault on the field, as you described, out of the range of play, might get some legal attention but it was, in my experience, very rare.
Gex
@Schlemizel: remember this is a league that punished a coach for calling for the extermination of all gay people with a two game suspension.
Drugs are taken seriously because they can affect the quality of the product. Otherwise they wouldn’t give a fuck about players’ health in that regard either.
They care about what makes them money. They don’t care about humans.
And far be it for me to defend Ray Rice, but this is bullshit. The league decided his punishment. There is no new incident but he’s received the second incident punishment laid out in the new guidelines. There’s a proper way to run any given system but clarity of rules and how they will be applied is important. From the law to the mob to the NFL, people need to know what to expect and retroactively or capriciously applying punishments is chaos and unfair. Goodell is a joke. He’s where he is because he has ancestors that were competent enough that he doesn’t have to be competent at anything to “succeed.”
Roger Moore
@Gex:
The NFL doesn’t give a crap about the players’ health. They’d probably prefer it if all players took performance enhancing drugs because it would improve the quality of on-the-field play. That might cause a PR problem, though, so they have a fig leaf of a testing program that catches just enough players that they can pretend that they take PEDs seriously.
JR in WV
@Suzanne:
Suzanne, I agree with you completely about Ben Roethlisberger. In other threads people have said that he had a reputation that required young women to be especially careful with their drinks if big Ben was around them. He is also said to have had sex with a young woman far to inebriated to give meaningful consent to sex in Georgia.
People “playing” NHL hockey and using their sticks as weapons should be jailed for assault. People who spike a down player with their cleats should be jailed for assault, speaking of N Suh of the Detroit Lions. Race car drivers who “bump” an opponent’s car forcing them into a wall at 200 mph should have their racing license revoked, and perhaps be prosecuted.
Cops who shoot guy holding their hands up, people who are unarmed, people who are no threat to anyone, should be prosecuted for murder, and they shouldn’t be allowed to profit from their crime by virtue of “donations” from others who approve of their lynching by gunfire. George Zimmerman, too.
I thought there was a law that prohibited anyone from profiting from a crime, by, for example, painting pictures of their victims and their suffering for sale, or writing a long and detailed book describing their rape, cannibalization, and destruction of innocent victims. How come a cop doesn’t get that rule after shooting an unarmed person holding their arms up?
Enough. Now I might have trouble watching WVU’s next broadcast game with any pleasure… first world problems, amirite? There’s always Marshall… AKA Mars Hall U
And no offense to anyone, I know rooting for a team is different from loving all the players and coaches and owners and managers of the team and the league. Hockey and those clubs, there needs to be a big sea change there, though.
I will never understand the appeal of a “game” with clubs freely used.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@JR in WV: People have the capacity to do things in which they might get hurt.
dmbeaster
@Mnemosyne:
The story on Stewart is that he caused the now dead driver (Ward) to crash in a typical sprint car dust up – Stewart caused him to go into the wall as they raced (it does not look dirty or deliberate – just normal tires touching which sent Ward into the wall. Ward was behind Stewart who swung wide on the turn and touched his right rear tire to Ward’s front left). Stewart then gets out, walks down into the racing area and is waiving at Stewart on the next lap, which is being run under a yellow caution. Ward was clearly exposing himself on the track as a form of confrontation of Stewart, and it is almost certain Stewart saw him as he approached. The driver who passed Ward just before Stewart came very close to Ward who was edging further down into traffic. Reportedly, Stewart gunned his car as he approached Ward which caused the rear end to swing out which hit Ward as he passed (but Stewart does not seem to be traveling at an excessive speed at the time of impact, although his right rear does swing out some. It is also possible Stewart stepped into his path somewhat at the same time.). Ward went under the right rear tire (not the front of the vehicle – Stewart’s car jerks to the right as the right rear tire impacts Ward), and was then thrown free. Several witnesses describe the events in that manner. Whether or not they can prove criminal behavior would be very hard since how can you know for sure. But it sure looks bad. Ward was also behaving like an idiot — walking down on the track to confront Stewart as he approached. Clearly, Stewart could have safely avoided him by braking and slowing. But it is hard to know for sure.
As for the football situation, clearly circumstances could exist which would warrant a criminal charge. For example, a very late hit helmet first into another player’s unprotected head after his helmet popped off (and the offender clearly could see that), which kills him. There is the normal violence and then clearly out-of-bounds violence. There is also lots of borderline stuff — it would take a pretty clear case to merit criminal charges since the game in inherently violent and players legally have the intention of trying to deliberately hurt someone with legal hits. But that cannot excuse a deliberate intent to cause injury with a hit outside the bounds of the game.
MaryRC
@Betty Cracker: Yes, along with the initial video showing Rice dragging Mrs. Rice (Janay Palmer as she was at the time) off the elevator, there was another video that was released showing the couple in the hallway before they got on the elevator, where you can see her swatting or slapping at Rice. This allowed sportscasters and fans to give themselves permission to claim that it might have been self-defense on his part since “We don’t know what went on in that elevator.” Well, now we know — he cold-cocked her. So various weasels have been rapidly back-pedalling, including but not limited to Goodell.
DanR2
@dmbeaster: FFS. that’s one mess of an explanation, starting where Stewart gets out…
Betty Cracker
@Cacti: It’s not hedging” to ask you to back up your bullshit.
AndoChronic
I’d just like to see “bird safety glass” installed in the new Vikings stadium so the birds along the Mississippi river’s migratory path don’t suffer a similar knockout!
Joel
@Cacti: Often true, but Donte Stallworth proves an important counterpoint.
Paul in KY
@Cacti: Elvish?