As Betty noted and updated earlier, the Ray Rice video of him knocking out his now wife has been released, and the Ravens have cut Rice. In addition to that, this happened:
Roger Goodell has announced that based on new video evidence that became available today he has
indefinitely suspended Ray Rice.
— Greg Aiello (@gregaiello) September 8, 2014
Before the trolls and pc police flay me alive, as a human being and a brother and son, I am not going to spend one nanosecond concerned about the welfare of Ray Rice, and he could choke to death on his mouthpiece for all I care. This is not a defense of Ray Rice, this is not making excuses for what that asshole did to that woman, and I’m not going to lose any sleep over what happens to Rice.
Having said that, I feel obligated to note what a gutless crapweasel Roger Goodell is. This whole bullshit about the new video being released as the pretext for suspending him indefinitely is such a load of nonsense I can’t believe anyone with two firing synapses would fall for it. Did he not see the video in which a motionless Janay Palmer was dragged out of an elevator? Did he not realize that when 220 lbs of muscle punches a defenseless woman in the face it would be traumatic and awful? It wasn’t a secret what happened, and that is why Rice was charged with domestic abuse, suspended for two days, etc. And Goodell blew it with a two game suspension.
Since then, he has been supplicating in front of the media, begging forgiveness for being a moron and not taking this issue seriously. They have instituted stronger new policies (6 games 1st domestic abuse, lifetime ban for second), and that is a good thing. But what irritates me about Goodell’s indefinite suspension of Rice today is that there is nothing at all sincere about it. He’s just making stuff up as he goes along. We knew Ray Rice punched her, we saw her motionless body- did Goodell think he punched her lightly? Yes, the video was shocking and awful, but so is every domestic abuse incident that isn’t filmed. It’s why it’s called domestic “VIOLENCE.” This just smacks of insincere ass-covering, and the message he is sending is that domestic abuse is serious enough to ban for two (and now six) games, but if we catch it on film, well, then, that’s way worser.
Additionally, why the hell did the NFL put in the new six game suspension policy if they aren’t going to follow it? This was Rice’s first incident and Goodell gave him two games sitting before the new policy came out. How do you re-punish? And even then, if you are going to just wing this and you are going to go about and re-punish him, shouldn’t it be either four more games or a lifetime ban? It just makes no sense to me. What is Goodell doing or thinking? Is he just going to wait until the furor dies down and then decide to reinstate him- will that be four, five, ten games? Is he going to string him along for a year and then ban him permanently? Again, Goodell is just making shit up as he goes along, and I have no idea how anyone can think he or the NFL is sincere.
If you take a crime seriously, and domestic abuse is one that really should be taken seriously, you need to address it seriously. You need to set out a clear guideline for what is and what is not acceptable and what the punishment will be. In this case, Goodell has failed in almost every aspect discussed here, and some that were not. The initial punishment was too lenient, the second punishment is not clearly defined, and he still has never addressed the odious tweets that came from the Ravens organization (now deleted):
Janay Rice says she deeply regrets the role that she played the night of the incident.
— Baltimore Ravens (@Ravens) May 23, 2014
Like I said, he’s just making shit up as he goes along, and that’s no way to run a small store let alone a multi-billion high profile business. Not to mention, the Players Union should and probably will have a legal field day with this illogical behavior, which will then be portrayed as the Players Union supporting domestic violence when what they are really doing is defending their union members from arbitrary justice. That will give the NFL another pr disaster and counts, in my book, as “conduct detrimental to the league,” and if you think for one second the owners won’t use that in the long run to further weaken the union, you’re on glue.
I have no love for Ray Rice (not only as a human being, but as a WVU and Steelers fan, as a player), but I gotta say I’ll be as happy if he never plays another down as I will if Goodell is kicked out of the league for gross incompetence and generally being a gutless, clueless coward. Gawd, I miss Paul Tagliabue. The entire NFL response has just been a shitshow fail parade from day one, and it is transparently obvious that Goodell is not acting because of actual concern about Rice’s behavior, but about the financial harm this is causing the NFL. And, as always, there is nothing on the planet that Goodell can’t make worse with his special reverse Midas touch.
kc
No kidding.
rikyrah
You will NEVER convince me that the NFL hadn’t seen ever inch of that tape before they came up with the TWO game suspension.
Even if, I give them the benefit of the doubt…
what part of DRAGGING A WOMAN BY HER HAIR did they not understand.
burnspbesq
And yet again, our genial host displays his absolute lack of understanding of the importance of due process, evidence, etc.
John Cole +0
@burnspbesq: WTF are you talking about? Do you think Goodell is following the rules of the league? What does this have to do with a court of law, anyway?
kc
@rikyrah:
Exactly!!
Lavocat
But how do you REALLY feel, John?
Lavocat
@burnspbesq: Dude, did “Animal House” teach you nothing?
You just stand back in awe and watch/read the man rant.
“Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl harbor!?”
J.
And what about John Harbaugh, who stood by Rice and said, and I quote, “He’s a heck of a guy”? Harbaugh, or the Ravens organization, could have and should have punished Rice severely — sat him, fined him, suspended him — as soon as the tape emerged (the first tape) — but stood by their guy. Isn’t he worse than Goodell? Makes me sick. And I don’t think there is anything Harbaugh can say in his presser at 8 tonight that could change my mind.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@burnspbesq: Among other things, there’s reason to be extremely dubious about the NFL’s current claims that they hadn’t seen this video before now, including the NFL’s previous claims that they had seen all of the video of the incident.
Betty Cracker
My guess is Goodell is hoping an “indefinite” suspension will take the heat off his ass and then will reinstate Rice after six games (when he hopes the furor will have died down) to comply with the new policy. But yeah, a shitshow fail parade from beginning to end is a good description of it.
Louise
The Ravens just now deleted Janay’s tweet
Asshats.
Schlemizel
Does that line not cover every reaction to a problem in the NFL? Really all sports at the D-I level and above? Its not about whats good or what is right, its all about what serves the interests of the powerful and well-connected at that moment in time.
SatanicPanic
@burnspbesq: err, evidence? What more did they need?
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
Not off topic. Must read on domestic homicide prevention:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/07/22/a-raised-hand
Schlemizel
@John Cole +0:
Calm down, burnsie just has not been able to start a decent pissing contest over some tangential point recently. He saw an opening & decided to take it.
You were spot on & made your point vividly. Thats probably what made him think he could attack the post.
Trollhattan
Buried in the thread below is my question. whither Ray McDonald? He played yesterday, despite being arrested the previous weekend for domestic abuse of his pregnant fiancee. And he’s a freaking lineman, larger than 99% of humanity, much less a pregnant woman.
Yeah, the NFL has unresolved issues.
Amir Khalid
I don’t agree that a six-match suspension is the right punishment for a first domestic-violence offence. The NFL should punish first offenders with a lifetime ban. What kind of human being needs to be warned that beating anyone unconscious, let alone one’s partner, is a horrible crime?
JMG
Goodell is one of those people, common in all walks of life, for whom appearances matter more than reality. Therefore, reality winds up biting him in the ass on a regular basis. Rozelle was an all-powerful commissioner because he negotiated the TV contracts, the owners’ source of revenue. Tagliabue had great relations with the union, preventing costly work stoppages, so he had a real power base with the owners, too. The owners pretty much do labor relations and TV contracts themselves now, so Goodell is hugely insecure about wielding his powers, such as they are. He’s always worried he’ll either make the owners or the networks mad.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@J.: Check out the part at the New Yorker link about how batterers come off as charming and likable and their victims seem crazy … because the batterer isn’t the one losing sleep at night.
Jamey
@J.: These are the same Ravens that embraced Ray Lewis after he pled no-contest to obstruction of justice in a felony murder case.
He watched two of his friends shiv some wrongplacewrongtime guy and then lied about it. And then changed his story, but only after bargaining for suspended sentence and probation after a plea of no-contenst.
Not exactly betting the over on the Ravens integrity as an organization… nor on Lewis’s life since as a “Road to Damascus moment.”
Professional shitstain, Bill Simmons dared the Ravens to cut Rice. I say we dare ESPN to cut Lewis. Just because NO decent organization needs to stoop to endorsing sociopathy.
Suzanne
However, when Ben Roethlisberger drugged and raped a woman, you still supported his team and therefore his career, Cole.
Suzanne
@Amir Khalid: WORD. Anyone that commits abuse should be GONE. And if they’re not sent packing, fans should boycott the team.
scav
@Louise: Christ. That shows the same level of situational awareness and sense of entitled invulnerability as the original violence / aftermath in view of cameras and later witnesses. Plus most everything the NFL and team has pulled since. This passes for competent management anymore and worth the increasingly bigger bucks?
There are days I think burnsie has outsourced all his thought processes, personality, social skills and moral judgements to his two hierarchical touchstones, certain forms of judicial law and certain traditions of the traditional RC church. All judgements are outsourced, maybe even his choice of what socks to wear in the morning.
skerry
While I do not support how the NFL has handled this incident, I am more upset with the NJ DA.
Why wasn’t Rice arrested for assault? Why was he allowed into a “diversion” program and the aggravated assault charge dropped? And why was the victim also initially arrested for assault?
You know they saw all the videos.
Yes, the NFL needs to take domestic violence more seriously – but what about law enforcement?
RobertB
The resident experts on NFL/NFLPA relations are saying that, unlike recreational drug or PED abuse, the NFL’s policy on Domestic Violence is not covered in the CBA. So if Roger Goodell wants to tell Ray, “Two games. No wait, banned until everyone gets bored,” the NFLPA has exactly zilch to say about it. So there’s not much chance that the NFLPA is going to put up a fight about the new banning.
Corner Stone
But what does Shawn think about all this?
Corner Stone
@Trollhattan: Hey, that’s uncalled for! That fetus totally talked mess in the car. Should have expected the man to be violent.
Schlemizel
@skerry:
Justice is blind – but she sure can smell money!
Corner Stone
@RobertB: The Players Union either didn’t think enough about issues of DV or didn’t think the NFL gave enough of a shit about DV to crack down?
That seems pretty brutal.
John Cole +0
@Suzanne: There has not been one criminal or civil lawsuit in which anything has come down on Ben. The closest we got was the prosecutor in Georgia (I think it was Georgia) who when announcing there were no charges decided to prosecute the case in public. If there was anything to it, I would have reacted appropriately.
And there was never any mention of drugging. If I remember correctly, she was with a bunch of sorority sisters and hammered. And having said that, I think Ben is a total asshole for even being in a bar with a bunch of young women he had no business being around. What is a grown man doing in a college bar trolling for sorority girls?
Trollhattan
@skerry:
An excellent question. IMNAL but the video would seem to be mute evidence of a crime that cannot be explained away by those present, even had she not been knocked out. Would a clever defense lawyer have asked, “Do you know for a fact that you did not ask Mr. Rice to “Please baby, knock me cold” as he has testified before the court? Well?”
RareSanity
@burnspbesq:
Goodell is operating under liberties conferred upon him by the collective bargaining agreement in place between the league and the player’s union.
If the players didn’t want him to be judge, jury, and executioner…or they wanted “due process”…then they probably shouldn’t have been party to a legal agreement which allows the former, with no requirement for the latter.
The players got a crap deal because too many of them couldn’t survive much longer with the strike. In a league where a six figure salary is the MINIMUM, a few months without a paycheck would have been a disaster for an non-trivial number of players
Corner Stone
@Jamey: I’m not a big fan of Simmons either, but where does the professional shitstain part come from?
John Cole +0
@Corner Stone: Shawn wanted him cut from the team before the season started. He never wanted to see him in a Ravens uniform again and was disgusted with Harbaugh and Rice. And this is a guy who all but sleeps in a Ravens hat.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Amir Khalid: But is he good at football?
This starts in the Steubenvilles of America where teenaged rape victims are harassed unremitting along with their entire families until they commit suicide or their family moves away. Where the parents and the coaches of these budding offenders defend them as “red-blooded American boys” and the victims as “liars” and “sluts”. Where someone who exposed these asshats to the world on social media faces more prison time than the hometown heroes who raped a minor, took trophies, bragged about it and urged others to continue victimizing her.
Even though DV victims are typically too frightened to leave even the liberal blogosphere is replete with comments that Ray Rice’s wife Janay must love money and the lifestyle more than her safety and other ignorant and judgy comments of that sort.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Trollhattan: The case hasn’t gone to court yet. Rice took a deal and admitted that he did it (plus the tape). That makes a difference in my mind.
John Cole +0
@RobertB: Thanks.
John Cole +0
@Another Holocene Human (now with new computer): One of the rapers in Steubenville is back on the team.
MattR
Best response on Twitter from the KC Royals beat writer –
J.
@Jamey: Tell me about it. I didn’t get punched in the face, but was the target of abuse by a former boss and a former financial adviser, both of whom were considered utterly charming and likeable, at least by people who were not the subject of their abuse.
@Jamey: Yeah, the Ravens sound like an upstanding organization, though probably not much better than other professional sports franchises, and college programs, most of which go to great lengths to protect their athletes, and even coaches. (Anyone remember Penn State and Jerry Sandusky?)
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Jamey:
Ravens integrity? Did that start when they took a black marker and crossed out “Browns” on their helmets in 1996, wooed to Baltimore by money LITERALLY TAKEN OUT OF THE BALTIMORE PUBLIC SCHOOLS BUDGET by the governor?
Suzanne
@John Cole +0: There is no civil or criminal case in the vast, vast majority of rapes. Even of you believe him and not her, he still penetrated a woman too drunk to consent. Which is, of course, rape.
Trollhattan
All true but in a “zero tolerance” clubhouse (per the coach) and league (per the commish) the fact that he was 1. arrested and 2. is out on $25k bail would lead me to think that he’d be immediately suspended–with our without pay probably depends on the CBA–until the case ran its course. That, in itself, could easily take years and certainly won’t be adjudicated within the current season.
So now, they have this ginormous cloud hanging over the team.
ETA–maybe it happens when the DA decides whether there’s enough evidence to proceed?
Corner Stone
@Trollhattan: IMO, he should be suspended with pay until further action is taken.
skerry
@Suzanne: This
MattR
@John Cole +0: FYI – here is a PDF of the NFL’s personal conduct policy which was agreed to as part of the CBA negotiations in 2011. There is a tremendous amount of discretion left to the Commissioner, unlike the substance abuse and performance enhancing drug policies.
Corner Stone
@John Cole +0:
I’m going to hold on to my suspicion that he does, in fact, sleep in that damn hat until further evidence surfaces.
And no, I’m not asking for stealthy pics of him asleep in his room.
***SHUTTERS***
*Although, the Lily Nap pic does indeed prove he sleeps in that same damned hat. Along with Party Animal pajama bottoms.
Comrade Luke
It’s really fucking stupid to stand behind “due process” and any other legal hoo-haw, when you’re referring to an institution that doles out punishment on its own, in coordination with the players union and CBA.
This isn’t a court case. And it’s not a court case largely because of an environment where victims are pressured to either shut up, or say they’re deeply regret the role they’ve played in their own abuse, because the commissioner’s office and players union would rather protect the abuser than the victim.
ETA: I’m really looking forward to the NFL wearing pink in October! That’s just fucking rich.
Corner Stone
Man, he hits her with a short left hook that I’m surprised didn’t break bones in her face. That is a vicious blow.
Corner Stone
@Comrade Luke:
I’m a big fan of due process but burns is just being an asshole. The guy took a plea deal, which is an admittance.
judge crater
@Schlemizel: Yes, the NFL is a non-profit organization – tax exempt. We’re talking 9 billion dollars or so of fun money every year. All the owners, NFL management and the TV networks care about is making sure the goose keeps laying golden eggs. Rodger Goodell is a very well paid doormat. It’s all about PR and marketing. End of story.
Dog On Porch
Goodell is toast.
RobertB
@Corner Stone: The talk I read was about Roger Goodell having no restrictions or guidelines on discipline for what they would consider ‘moral’ offenses. The NFLPA definitely doesn’t like that, but the current agreement is in force.
Compare and contrast with Josh Gordon getting a year’s banning for smoking weed. This punishment is straight out of the CBA, and while the NFLPA might grumble, they can’t really fight it.
Corner Stone
@judge crater:
$44 million last year. Even taking shit from billionaires, I don’t think making $44M a year is too bad a gig.
Roger Moore
@MattR:
Yep. That’s about the size of it.
RareSanity
@Corner Stone:
I was more horrified (if that’s even possible) with how her head hit the railing of the elevator car as she was falling.
I saw that video once. I was so disturbed by it, one part of my mind seemed to be trying to convince the other part that it wasn’t even real.
I played football most of my younger life, and that video was more brutal than anything I ever experienced on a football field. If the Goodell DID in fact see that video prior to handing down the two game suspension, I am disgusted, Goodell should have been handing in his letter of resignation the instant it went public.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@John Cole +0: FWIW, when young (then) Ben was himself in college, it was a known thing in the region that caution should be exercised by young females, sorority or otherwise, and keeping any drinks to be consumed very close was a necessity. And I was already way older than that cohort then.
@John Cole +0: Shawn is a mensch then.
scav
And Rice seems to think of himself as a role model. Via the Guard., me bolding
Trollhattan
@RareSanity:
At least on the football field you stand the chance of either the guy you’re trying to hurt hurting you back, more, or getting the same from his teammates. A lone woman–not so much risk of that.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@RobertB: When the company puts that stuff in contracts, it shows what they really care about.
The NFL thinks drug use being known will make them look bad to a certain reactionary portion of their fan base. OTOH, they up until now have been shielded by useful idiots every time a player rapes or assaults somebody who rush to blame the victim before the blood is dry. So, meh, violent crime not such a biggie to them, not enough to give anything up to get auto-penalties written into the contract.
RareSanity
@Trollhattan:
That is true…well, unless you’re a kicker.
I only kid the kickers…kinda.
Dog On Porch
I nominate Amy Trask as Goodell’s replacement.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@scav: patriarchal Christianity memes plus domestic violence, two great tastes that go together!
At what degree of correlation do we start assigning some probabilities to that causation thing?
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Corner Stone: I was slightly surprised by the lack of fracture as well. I’m guessing the LOC was not terribly short and that a concussion, while perhaps not diagnosed formally, followed. That was some shot.
kc
@RareSanity:
And then he just treats her unconsious body like a sack of potatoes.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
Eron Gjoni told the press he doesn’t want women driven out of gaming or his ex-GF harassed, even though he wrote a 10K word screed and ginned up rage on 4channer IRC channels to do exactly that.
Fucking narcissists aren’t exactly rare. Why do people over the age of, say, 25 keep falling for this act?
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Trollhattan:
I don’t know. I guess I’m uncomfortable with employers just canning employees, or suspending them without pay, based upon nothing more than an arrest. I guess several things collide in my mind, namely the horrific problem of domestic violence against my overwhelming distrust of uncorroborated police reports against my deep feelings that we have given employers far too much discretion to fire their employees for whatever reason they like.
I really don’t like the trend that we expect employers, who are under no obligation to provide any sort of due process, to compensate for the inadequacies of the criminal justice system. And without some evidence beyond just a police statement (to the best of my knowledge in the Ray McDonald situation we don’t even have a public statement by his girlfriend) I am uncomfortable with suspending an employee based only on what we have. That’s a general statement about the power we allow employers.
I guess what I don’t buy into is the idea that justice must be applied instantly. It’s okay to let it play out a bit first.
slag
@Suzanne: You’re fighting a losing battle. It’s the video that does the work here. You’ll never get the same level of empathy/outrage without it.
Which is, of course, why all women everywhere should just start wearing body cams…Of course, then they’ll be harassed for filming people against their will.
Corner Stone
@kc:
I finally made myself watch the after part, and he doesn’t give one F about her or her modesty until some other person, looks like a male, walks over in front of him. It’s at that point that he bothers to even move her legs together and pull her skirt down a little.
I hate it for her that this video is out. I know nothing about her, but that’s an awful thing to have the world get to see.
Violet
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
If you are in a “right to work” state you can be fired for any reason whatsoever unless it violates certain things protected by law–like being fired for being a woman. Your boss doesn’t like your hair color? Fired. Your boss doesn’t like the car you drive? Fired. Your boss doesn’t like your voice? Fired. You have no legal standing to sue. You work at their whim and will.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Trollhattan: The on the field equivalent would be a whole bunch of actions which are banned (for good reason) and would get you quickly ejected from the field, if not lead to consequences to your team and possibly to you and your team for multiple games or the rest of the season depending on the seriousness (and whether the people in positions of responsibility care … because I have seen completely unacceptable behavior occur in intramural league play that a negligent ref let slide).
And, as you said, doing something like that on a field in the open raises the possibility of retaliation by your victim’s teammates. That’s why smart bullies bully their own teammates behind lockerroom doors, like Richie Incognito. Go Fish.
Roger Moore
@judge crater:
This is more than a bit misleading. The NFL is, and should be, a non-profit organization. It falls under 501(c)(6), which is the section of the tax code for business associations, chambers of commerce, sports leagues, and the like. Most of the money that comes into the league is passed straight through to the individual teams, which, with the exception of the Packers, are very much for profit businesses and taxed as such. The money that the league keeps is used to pay for common expenses, like salaries for the refs and the people who run the league office.
Sir Laffs-a-Lot
When you’ve lost John Cole, you’ve lost West Virginia……..love “crapweasel” and am adding that to my lexicon as of right now. When you steal rants, steal from the best.
Suzanne
@slag: Nah. I think it’s easier to overlook bad behavior when the dude plays for YOUR team. Tribal behavior at its finest.
Corner Stone
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Level of Consciousness? Length of Consciousness?
As someone else said, I’d bet she doesn’t actually remember the argument before the elevator or much of anything until later in the day.
ETA, and I say “argument” but just mean whatever happened right before the assault.
Another Holocene Human (now with new computer)
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): When you have a serious charge you could have a suspension pending investigation. The employer could do their own investigation parallel to any police investigation. Teacher’s unions had to negotiate terms of such matters in details because
a) Teachers are uniquely vulnerable to harassment from bully parents because little Johnny didn’t get that A+ or innocent Mary came home talking about gene splicing and natural selection
b) Teachers also are put a position of trust with minors and some teachers and coaches can and do take advantage of opportunities to groom vulnerable minors in order to rape them
But it can happen in other professions as well.
What you’re talking about is really a problem across American work culture. Employers want to get all up in employees’ private lives, take up all their private hours doing overtime or coming in on odd shifts, concern troll about their family formation (single parent, gay, caring for elderly relative), and a lot of other intrusive stuff (deciding what BC they can get).
We also have such an punitive attitude that we make it extremely difficult for felons and ex-felons to get employment, exacerbating the very recidivism everyone’s so fucking afraid of. And that said, I wouldn’t put someone with a history of felony rape charges or DV in a little van with random strangers driving them to the airport at 4AM. They need to work behind a booth with another employee under a camera. But, you know, okay let’s say some dude did 3 years for CP on the computer, now they can’t get a job as a dishwasher or line cook? Seriously?
Something very fucked up in the American psyche.
kc
@Corner Stone:
I flipped on the TV at lunchtime, had unfortunately left it on HLN (don’t ask), and that was the FIRST thing I saw.
They’ve probably played 500 times by now.
Dog On Porch
@Suzanne: Mea culpa. I defended Barry Bonds even as I was being horse laughed down, long after I should have wised up. Long after a friend that had been to Bond’s first juiced spring training told me he was suddenly ripped, and “his neck is huge”.
Addendum: Steroids or not, he’s still the best hitter I’ve ever seen play.
slag
@Suzanne: You honestly think that, if that Ben guy was caught on camera in this exact situation, Cole’s response would be totally different?
Tribalism is one thing. But even lunatic fanatics (of which Shawn is one, apparently) can appreciate that it’s not the only thing. Cole was once a Republican, after all. His tribalism has at least some limits. I would probably put this down as one of them.
Suzanne
@slag: Maybe the camera has something to do with it. But there are plenty of people who saw the woman with him, and this was not his first rape accusation, and apparently it was common knowledge that he would drug someone’s drink. There’s plenty of circumstantial evidence. Probably not enough for a criminal conviction, but enough to convince someone who doesn’t have an interest in believing otherwise.
Berial
@JimmyTraina got it right on Twitter: “Ray Rice is unemployed because of TMZ, not the NFL.”
Seanly
@John Cole +0: Probably the same thing a young man is doing in a college bar trolling for sorority women!
Actually though you have a very good point. I don’t even hit ‘like’ on FB friend’s posts & pictures about her cheerleading daughter in order to avoid looking like a creep…
Corner Stone
@Seanly: And you call yourself a “friend”…
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Violet: Well, sure, I admit that the 49ers probably have the legal right to go ahead and suspend McDonald right now. I’m just very uncomfortable with employers exercising that right given the amount of information available here. I don’t think that “zero tolerance” necessarily or should equate to “suspended immediately upon any suspicion”. In practice it often does, but I think that’s the problem and I don’t like legitimating it even in a situation that involves something as abhorrent as domestic violence or even in a situation where I suspect that McDonald is guilty.
So I don’t demand that the suspension happen RIGHT NOW.
slag
@Suzanne: Yes. But that’s a symptom of the patriarchy, in general. Not of Cole’s relationship with an individual football player or team. (Although, let’s be honest, sports are a huge aspect of the patriarchy–right up there with religion.) The best you can accuse Cole of in this case is being a typical white male. Somewhere in between sociopath and Curly from The Three Stooges.
Suzanne
@slag: Uh, I think it’s typical patriarchal behavior to care more about the outcome of a game (mind you, a game one isn’t even playing, and one where the only thing at stake is pride and money) than about the health, safety, or welfare of women. Doesn’t mean it’s okay just because it’s typical, though. I think Cole is being a bit hypocritical here. Hypocrisy isn’t a mortal sin or anything, but should prompt done self-examination.
JR in WV
If it was known that classmates of Big Ben Roethlisberger needed to be careful of their drinks around him in college, and if he had sex with a young woman who was too inebriated to give knowing consent, then I’m betting Big Ben is a rapist. Party animal!
I’m not gonna be favoring any team being managed by a QB who is known to be a rapist, whether he is a convicted criminal or just known to be willing to take advantage of women who can’t protect themselves.
What a disgusting piece of crap the guy is. The fact that he is a big strong QB with a great passing arm leaves me cold compared to his total lack of character. I’ll root for … Towson State first. Or WVU Tech. Or Marshall U. Lots of teams out there to root for without kissing up to a brutal PoC like Ben Roethlisberger. That’s like inviting Jerry Sandusky to your kid’s birthday party.
Schlemazel [was Schlemizel till NotMax taught me proper yiddish!]
@Corner Stone:
$44 MILLION!! Are you F’in kidding me? Jay-Zeus, Line up the owners, for that money I’d kiss each of their asses on national TV. I’m old, I work for a living, I have no self respect any more. I had no clue he made anything like that sort of money.
Schlemazel [was Schlemizel till NotMax taught me proper yiddish!]
@Violet:
True and I think JMN does not think that is a good thing nor should we support it for certain things.
EDIT: I guess I didn’t need to defend him, he did very well on his own.
gene108
@skerry:
I do not know Ray Rice’s prior criminal record, but I am guessing it is pretty short, if it ever existed, i.e. he’s not run afoul of the law in his life to any substantial degree, because if was substantial it’d have made news by now.
So what is the punishment for someone who lands one punch against another person?
That’s all that was caught on video.
A man lands one punch against a woman.
The injured party testifies this is the only time this has happened.
What do you want law enforcement to do or the courts to do?
Have mandatory minimums, so anytime anyone lands a punch they get a minimum sentence to serve jail time?
People seem to want to throw him in jail for an unspecified period of time because they are mad at what he did and view no other forms of agreement with the court, by the defendant, as appropriate restitution / punishment for the crime committed.
This has been handled a lot more seriously than the reported domestic abuse call that Nicole Brown called regarding OJ Simpson, where the cops showed up and did nothing.
Rice, at least, had a day in court and faced real charges.
P.S. I think what Ray Rice did was wrong. There’s not need for him to do what he did. None. I just think a lot of folks want something done, because doing something feels better than doing nothing or letting the status quo stand.
Corner Stone
@gene108:
I’m sorry, but what? Do I need to retune my Snark D or were you serious?
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Suzanne:
No. The difference is that the usage of performance enhancing drugs directly affects the game itself, which means that it is directly within the concerns of the league. Domestic violence does not affect the game on the field, so any interest in it by the league is indirect.
Look, I know it’s been used effectively but the direct comparison of Ray Rice’s two game suspension to a longer suspension handed out to someone for using performance enhancing drugs* to dumb and irrelevant. That’s because the expectation should be that the punishment for domestic violence will primarily come from the criminal justice system, not the NFL. Steroid suspensions, on the other hand, are primarily the responsibility of the league and so the punishment for them will primarily be handed down by the league, especially for a lot of the supplements are perfectly legal for general use but banned by the league under its drug policy.
In an ideal world, the NFL absolutely think that PED use should be punished more than domestic violence, because the criminal justice system would administer the penalty for the latter, while the former is mostly the NFL’s responsibility to deal with. As I said, I really don’t like the trend of using employer/employee relations as a substitute for a screwed up justice system because it leads to a situation in which we give far too much power to an organization that really doesn’t care about due process.
*The comparisons to Josh Gordon’s suspension for marijuana are perfectly valid because marijuana usage does not give Josh Gordon an advantage within the game the way using steroids outside the rules does, so the NFL’s interest in Gordon is only indirect.
EdinNJ
As a Rutgers graduate who previously held Ray Rice in very high regard, this whole situation is so sad. What Ray did is inexcusable, but by all accounts, he realizes what he did was inexcusable and wants to make amends. What angers me about the whole situation is how poorly the NFL handled it. If Goodell had suspended him indefinitely, or banned him for life, I truly believe he would have accepted that and worked on getting his life back together out of the public spotlight.
Outside of that moment in the elevator, Ray has always been a good guy. My son and I have met him many times and he’s done a lot of good for the Rutgers community and his hometown of New Rochelle, mostly without any fanfare. It sucks to see that lifetime of goodwill go down the drain over this incident.
I always hear how this is a forgiving society, but this has been so mishandled, I don’t think Ray gets an opportunity to redeem himself.
Suzanne
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): The public image of the players has a direct impact on the NFL’s ability to sell tickets and merchandise. I believe that one’s public image should be almost destroyed if one engages in abuse or rape, and Rice seems to be finding that out. Therefore, the NFL has a valid interest here.
My concern is that Rice is rightly getting raked over the coals here, but other people who did equally odious things did not. I’m sure there’s many reasons why that is so.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Suzanne:
Yes, but it’s indirect. There direct concern is only the game on the field. And for something like domestic violence, the punishment should be administered by the courts, not the NFL. In our world, of course, the courts do a horrible job of doing that. But I don’t think that the best solution is to just turn it over to employers and tell them to do the punishing because the courts don’t.
I agree, but that’s a problem with the criminal justice system, not really with the NFL.
Bob In Portland
The NFL needs to change their marijuana policy too. Not surprisingly, in states where marijuana is easily consumed without criminal consequences incidents of domestic violence have gone down.
Gex
@Another Holocene Human (now with new computer): drug use is, I think, a concern because if it’s potential to damage the product (either the games or the players.) Otherwise the league wouldn’t test and would not have any cause to irritate reactionaries. They could still punish players who got into legal problems related to drugs. But testing is about protecting their pocketbooks not placating social warriors.
They don’t care about humans. Which is why they are less concerned about concussions than drugs and why they need to be forced via external pressure to care about their players beating, raping, or killing people.
Suzanne
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): That’s a problem with society, more specifically called patriarchy.
This most certainly is the NFL’s business, because they are in the entertainment business. If people are not entertained and they don’t want to spend their money to watch the guy or buy his jersey because he’s an asshole, the NFL loses money. This is the specific reason that Hooters is not obligated to hire women with little boobs, BTW. It is recognized that the entertainment industry doesn’t function like the others. Image is the product.
scav
@Corner Stone: Always hard to tell. But the continued emphasis on the ‘single’ instance when much of the general discussion has moved onto enabling frameworks and biases is rather troubling. The one bad apple, only it isn’t really such a bad apple, there have been apples that got entirely away with it, Hitler! was a apple, can’t we just move on and not change anything, nope nope nothing to be, can be, ever can be changed here ploy. Minimize minimize minimize, beautiful minds on board signs . . . Not quite trusting the ps boilerplate of not approving, although there could be a spot of genuinely felt tut-tuttery so long as no real changes to the system are enacted or envisioned.
To a certain extent, What’s his name Rice is the least interesting element in the whole event (especially in light of dealing with the larger real problems), although the disjoint between the goodwill persona he apparently adopted in public and the careless violence of his private elevator soul is interesting. I can’t really be bothered to give a shit about his personal redemption or future income stream or the pleas to ‘forgive’ as a society.
Trollhattan
Speaking of league fecklessness, “Jerry who?!?”
am
@Dog On Porch:
Seriously, even if you grade on a curve, just against other obvious juicers, his performance was so historically dominating that I doubt we will ever see anything like it again unless MLB collapses and the mean player becomes low enough for actual humans to become multi-sigma again (ie Ruth, Williams, or Gehrig). I bet that if you had access to a time travelling phone booth and could bring him back for a season or two against 1920-1950 level competition with a suitable supply of the cream & clear, he’d average appr. a 2.500 OPS. Imagine if his knees had still been good.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Suzanne: Do you think the NFL should be suspending players for reports that they did things that were embarrassing but perfectly legal?
If they think that having a gay player would hurt their marketing, do you think that they would be in the right to suspend him?
Suzanne
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): If they suspended a gay player, I think they would legally be in the right, but morally in the wrong. WRT Rice, I think they are morally and legally in the right.
WaterGirl
@EdinNJ: Believe me, somebody who does something like to a woman in an elevator where he thinks no one can see him is not a nice guy who committed one shameful act, one time.
Suzanne
@WaterGirl: Word.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Suzanne: Your argument is that the league should have the power to suspend players for legal behavior that they find embarrassing. I think that is giving employers too much power.
Suzanne
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): I am sympathetic to that argument, but I realize that entertainment choices are by definition irrational. There is no objective reason for me to see a Tom Cruise movie vs. a Robert Downey, Jr. movie. But I’ll spend my money to see Downey, because I “like” him more. NFL players are entertainers, and their likability matters to their bankability. As a matter of fact, I recognize that.
However, if you want to argue that society needs to be different, I am most likely in violent agreement.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Suzanne: I’m reconciled to the idea that you might not hire someone because they have done something embarrassing, though even that is hard for me. I’m autistic and have mental health issues so I really don’t like letting vague “embarrassment” elements into that process but there’s really no way to get it out of hiring. But I do think that the bar should be significantly higher for suspending or firing someone who already has a job.
I’m also really leery of “one violation and you’re absolutely done” rules, though I can certainly see where they come into play. For this, though, is it just the NFL that should forever ban a player for a single domestic violence incident or should all employers refuse to employ someone who is that sort of embarrassment? And if it’s just the NFL, why are they privileged to be able to get rid of their embarrassing problems while other employers need to give that person a chance? And if it’s all employers, what do you plan to do with those who have a single public incident of domestic violence? Are they just not supposed to have jobs?
Suzanne
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): The public nature of entertainment is the factor here for me, as well as legally. Businesses that operate within that industry do not, as a matter of law, have to operate within the same legal confines. So if I was working in that industry, I would place an applicant under increased scrutiny, yes. The NFL and all employers in the entertainment industry are included in this.
However, I do not work in that industry, and I don’t hire anyone. If I did, I would eliminate anyone who had committed any sort of white-collar crime or ethical lapse, as well as anyone who ever committed a violent crime. Calling violent abuse “embarrassing” minimizes the harm it does, to the victim and to women. Violent crime is not an embarrassment. It is proof that someone is not fit to engage in society.
People who commit abuse can have a job again if they honestly try to make significant amends and rehabilitate themselves. Before that, fuck them.
EdinNJ
@WaterGirl:
No I don’t have to believe you.
People make horrible, impulsive decisions all the time. You get rightfully castigated for your bad deeds, but it doesn’t automatically erase your good deeds.
scav
@EdinNJ: The indifference that followed the blow, the lack of immediate ‘shit what I done!?’ checking up on her is more chilling and revealing. What you see before you may very well be all you require for merit and a good man, the public persona elsewhere to people that matter more than his immediate loved ones. your choice, your beliefs indeed.
mclaren
I have a simpler solution:
Ban professional sports.
Shut ’em down. No mas. Ended. Gone. Done.
No more steroid abuse by overpaid thugs, no more double-digit millionaires beating their wives to hamburger and getting away with probation, no more drunk-and-coked-up-driving sports celebs killing entire families and walking out of the courtroom with a suspended sentence and 100 hours of community service.
Just Some Fuckhead
Thanks for solving this, maclaren.
gwangung
@Just Some Fuckhead: As if the bigot had any high horse to sit on.
Comrade Luke
@Corner Stone: I’m a fan of due process as well, of course.
My point is that, aside from the legal system, the NFL has a parallel system where players actually go to the commissioner’s office for “hearings”, etc. And the punishment was two games.
I don’t think anyone should be defending the events that took place within our *real* legal system, either, if they all saw the video of him actually hitting her.
Diana
@gene108: OK, I’m a working lawyer, so I’m both a little late to the discussion as well as perhaps more knowledgable about it that some other people. Here goes:
“A man lands one punch against a woman.
“The injured party testifies this is the only time this has happened.
“What do you want law enforcement to do or the courts to do?”
There’s a saying that a dog gets one bite, because, in theory, you don’t have to control your dog until you know about its vicious nature, so it gets one bite to demonstrate that nature (in practice, in this era of text, email, and cellphone, you can demonstrate the owner knew its nature long before a bite happens, but that’s the saying).
A man, on the other hand, in theory has a mind. (I’m aware we’re talking football here, and most of these guys sign up in the dim hopes of a professional career while what little mind they ever possess is guaranteed to be pummeled into CTE, and yet they voluntarily do it, just as guys voluntarily sign up for ISIS, I don’t get that one either, but I’m a woman, what do we know.) In theory he decides what he does before he does it. Therefore, when he undertakes to hit someone so hard they lose consciousness for several minutes, he first forms the mens rea and then launches his fist.
What we have here is a predetermined deliberate violent assault. That’s a felony.
What do we want law enforcement to do?
Prosecute felonies, maybe?
If you have something better for them to do, we’re all ears….
gene108
@Diana:
He was prosecuted. He faced a judge, in a court on criminal charges.
If you do not like the punishment that was handed out to him, that is one thing. There are plenty of people who are punished either too severely or too lightly by our justice system, in the eyes of outside parties.
But people act as if law enforcement did nothing, which is not true.
http://www.si.com/nfl/2014/09/08/ray-rice-video-legal-fallout-roger-goodell-baltimore-ravens
So what should we do to first time offenders, in felony assault cases? Minimum 20 years?
Again, you may not like the decision of Judge Donio, but Rice did face felony charges and possible jail time. He did not walk away without any sort of reprimand from the court or legal consequences for his actions against his then fiance and now wife.
Law enforcement did not ignore the incident.
People are reading things into the incident that suites their narrative, which does not match up with the facts stated above.
End of my point. Period.
Mnemosyne
@scav:
Some people in the other thread were wondering about Rice’s CTE status. Junior Seau was accused of domestic violence a couple of years before he committed suicide, but no charges were pressed.
Sad_Dem
@RareSanity:
“If the Goodell DID in fact see that video prior to handing down the two game suspension, I am disgusted, Goodell should have been handing in his letter of resignation the instant it went public.”
He did see it, which makes his utter reprehensibility clear. But even if he didn’t, there’s a legal phrase: “known or should have known.”
ira-NY
In the age of television, if it is not captured on film, the tree does not fall in the forest.
Diana
@gene108: why did you ask the question?
JimV
I’m probably speaking only for myself, but I like football for the athleticism – the diving catches, the diving deflections by defenders, the long, accurate passes, the shifty moves by runners – not for the hits and the players getting carried off the field on carts. If I were king, the rules would say you had to tackle by grabbing with your arms, not ram into the ball-carrier as hard as you can. As things are, a culture of violence is instilled in football players. When one of my nephews was on a middle-school football team, the coach gave out a “Golden Hammer” award after each game to the player who made the most violent hit. After losses he would make the team turn in their uniforms and tell them they were sissies who had to earn them back. He (my nephew) suffered a broken hand and a knee injury during those years.
And of course, the unwritten rule is, “If you aren’t cheating, you aren’t trying hard enough.”
Imagine if football had a different culture, maybe stuff like the Ray Rice incident wouldn’t happen. (I think Lennon wrote a song about that.)
Culture of Truth
Pretty sure this is a very politically correct position.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Diana: Because the result in court of person punches person depends on a metric shit ton of facts. You and I both know that a variety of factors – some benevolent, some malignant – affect jury decisions and plea agreements.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
The website just shit itself.
Paul in KY
@EdinNJ: You haven’t pissed Ray off…