If I had to invent a sentence fragment sure to drive readers of this blog to distraction, I could do worse than James Inhofe via Andrew Sullivan.
Russia deploys aircraft and submarines armed with cruise missiles around the world that already threaten our allies. But air and submarine bases can be targeted and destroyed by the U.S. military in the event of a confrontation. A mobile GLCM [ground-launched cruise missile], on the other hand, is much harder to find. General Philip M. Breedlove, the senior NATO commander, has said that this new weapon is “absolutely a tool that will have to be dealt with.”
No, we cannot just ‘hit’ Russian submarine bases. It would be stupid for nuclear submarines to hang out at their bases, which is why they do not do that. They loiter off the Atlantic and Pacific seaboards, and in the Great Lakes and in large ponds in Minnesota for all I know, waiting for a radio (?) command to kill everyone. If we launch a nuke at Russian ‘bases’ then we are launching nukes at Russia. Russia will of course launch all of theirs, including from the many subs not at their bases, because nuclear war is a use ’em before the other guy wrecks your launchers proposition. We will naturally launch all of ours before theirs hit us and then everyone will be dead. It really does not matter who does what first or in what order. Honestly and jesus fking christ tap dancing on a soup cracker, if you have in mind blowing up every Russian nuclear site except for some cruise missiles on a truck then the rest of your plan is a problem for the cockroaches.
So who the fuck cares if Russia updates its nuclear arsenal. Really. A decades-old early warning circuit board aging badly worries me a lot more than whether Russia can kill everyone on Earth ten times over or eleven. It would thrill me in fact if Russia maybe spent some money to maintain its early detection systems and its command & control apparatus. But more nukes? Give me a break. Anyone who thinks two countries at war could have a ‘polite’ nuclear exchange where they just toss a few little warheads around should have his head examined.
And what exactly does James Inhofe think we should ‘do’ about Russian missile trucks? Slash their tires? Sugar in the gas tank? Maybe we can land Seal Team Six in Siberia with a sack of potatoes for the tailpipe. Any overt attack with bombs, lasers, rail guns or spider drones counts as an attack on the nuclear arsenal and most of the two nuclear superpowers consider that a good pretext for launching the kit and caboodle.
Whether or not Russian elves have built some new nuclear device to soak up their country’s shrinking military budget, Putin is making noise for attention. Yes, Vladimir Putin has basically become this decade’s Kim Jong Il. Like the Russki’s old client – slash – feral pet nourished by scraps left out the back door Putin’s Russia is basically untouchable for geographic and military reasons but impotent on the world stage, in desperate decline and trying frantically to shore up its remaining sphere of influence against more losses. Except that he has about a million nukes of course, which is either meaningless or else we’re all dead.
Of course noise is enough for James Inhofe or my neighbor’s addled dog to bark himself hoarse. At this point a little self-reflection from the Kansas [update – Oklahoma. brain fart] representation in the Senate would shock me dead. I hope to expect more skepticism from the official leading light of this here blogging industry.
***Update***
Some helpful updates from the comments. Cermet:
In fact, the Russians do keep most of their nuclear ballistic fleet in port. The reason is any and every single Russian “Boomer” has one or more American Attack Subs shadowing it 24/7 in the open ocean. Also, our sound detection system covers 100% of the ocean and allows us to track everything on and under it. The Russians know this and don’t risk any significant number of Boomers in the open ocean.
At rare times they will send out a Boomer to train the crews but never as an attack force array to threaten the US. Besides, what really would they do? The Russians tend to be far more realistic about nuclear war than us and generally, don’t play that game at the level of risk we like to do.
Via Srv, the sticking point seems to be that Russia basically put its submarine cruise missiles on a truck. That violates a major nonprolif treaty, so noise has to be made. More than noise, though, I see very little to be done. Maybe the list of current and proposed sanctions has room for some more.
taylormattd
Banana in the tailpipe.
mellowjohn
i call bullshit. you used “James Inhofe” and “think” in the same sentence.
Belafon
The Cold War isn’t going to restart itself, and it takes two to tango. Russia’s trying, Inhofe’s just wondering why we aren’t playing along.
srv
Who cares? You do know that a new GLCM would be a violation of the IRNF Treaty? You don’t care about treaties, or compliance with? Or it’s OK as long as Putin does it?
Nattering Nevillian NayBOBs…
Jude
“They loiter off the Atlantic and Pacific seaboards…waiting for a radio (?) command to kill everyone.”
We have a system called ELF–Extremely Low Frequency radio–that signals our subs to come to periscope depth, at which point they raise their radio masts to get detailed instructions on what to do. Water does a good job of attneuating shorter-wavelength radio waves, so you have to use ELF to get to the deeper boats. The disadvantage of ELF is that you can’t put much information in the signal–our boats get a three-letter code that the radio folks decode and let the captain know what to do. I assume there’s one for “LAUNCH ‘EM ALL RIGHT NOW,” but I a) was on attack boats, not boomers and b) wasn’t a radioman. So I’m not sure about that.
Linnaeus
Funny you should say that. I remember seeing a video clip with a journalist going into a missile silo (not sure if it was Eric Schlosser, who just put out a book titled Command and Control about the US nuclear arsenal) and it was hair-raising to see the outdated equipment the silo staffs were using. 5.25″ floppies and all that. Maybe that’s changed by now, but it was really kinda scary.
Belafon
@srv: Yeah, but Inhofe’s response isn’t to hold up the treaty and say “you’re not following this.” His response is to prepare to bomb Russia.
Tim F.
@srv: This is true, but Russia already has a ton of ground-launched cruise missiles. So does China and anyone who bought or licensed their van-sized Sunburn launchers. A nuclear warhead on one of those is a problem for two engineers and a week or two to update the service manual.
But yes obviously, enforce treaty violations. We can add that to the sanctions list.
Downpuppy
I’d sooner go to Texas than Kansas.
Jude
Well, looks like we don’t use ELF anymore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency
Oops. Things change in 20 years. Who knew?
scav
Because we know the oceans soooooo much better than the land, they’re only 71% of the planet and about 10% mapped and not exactly transparent to satellites but hey, tracking relatively small moving object in ocean? Trivial. Similar on land? Panic!! On the upside they’ve apparently finally found a boat from the Franklin Expedition in about 1842, so see? easy-beasy.
Linnaeus
@Belafon:
Well, it won’t be the old Cold War, but for some folks, a quasi-Cold War would be good enough. It’s a kind of intellectual Viagra for the American right (or at least a subset of it). The Cold War, as an organizing principle, made things seem simple. In this (oversimplified) context, you knew who the good guys and bad guys were and where they were. You could justify just about any foreign policy adventure (and some domestic ones) on the grounds of stopping the bad guys. Since the Cold War, it’s been harder to do that.
Tim F.
@Linnaeus: My problem is not that the stuff is outdated – as a scientist I worship the old bakelite gear with an almost religious awe. It weighs a ton but that stuff never ever breaks. Old is reliable, and reliable means a blue screen of death won’t mean literally everyone dies.
But I do worry that the stuff is old as in the inevitable advancement of decrepitude. I do not want a frayed insulating wire to kill me before George Martin finishes his goddamn book series.
burnspbesq
You owe the people of Kansas an apology. They have sent some nasty pieces of business to the Senate, but none quite that bad.
Imhofe represents Oklahoma.
Linnaeus
@Belafon:
Well, it won’t be the old Cold War, but for some folks, a quasi-Cold War would be good enough. It’s a kind of intellectual boner pill for the American right (or at least a subset of it). The Cold War, as an organizing principle, made things seem simple. In this (oversimplified) context, you knew who the good guys and bad guys were and where they were. You could justify just about any foreign policy adventure (and some domestic ones) on the grounds of stopping the bad guys. Since the Cold War, it’s been harder to do that.
ETA: This is a duplicate comment because I used the V-word in the prior version and got stuck in moderation.
Mart
Think you mean representation from Oklahoma, unless their is a war brewing between the states.
Speaking of easy target,, and these really are, why do we float seven or eight aircraft carriers. For the big penis effect? A couple of smart missiles and we are out tens of billions. These were obsolete in 1950.
k komah
I believe James Inhofe is Oklahoma’s embarrassment not Kansas.
Tim F.
@burnspbesq: all sincere apologies. It even looks like Kansas might do something smart for a change.
Linnaeus
@Tim F.:
You may be right there – I’m no expert on this. It just seems to me that there’s a number of failure points with equipment as it ages: storage media degrades, wires get brittle, etc. I guess I was just surprised to see how old some of this stuff was given how many billions a year we unquestioningly pour into our defense budget.
Dee Loralei
Unfortunately, Inhoffe is an Okie not a Kansan.
Robert Sneddon
@Tim F.: Sunburn aka Moskit is not a GLCM, it’s a medium-range tactical missile system pretty much designed to do one job, kill US fleet carriers and other capital ships like LHDs and the like. It’s nuclear-capable but only the Russians had suitable small warheads to fit to the pointy end and they may not have any usable warheads in service any more.
Calouste
@Linnaeus:
Yeah, some people really like to have a bad guy. It was the Nazis, then the commies, then Saddam Hussein, then Osama bin Laden. I guess ISIS is the current bogey man, and there will be another one after that and after that, but at one point people will start to notice that whatever the next “existential threat” is, is smaller than the previous one, and we’re now at an organization that commands about 20,000 fighters without an air force. Some people just don’t seem to be satisfied even after many wins.
Roger Moore
Cruise missiles aren’t as scary as ballistic missiles, anyway. Even supersonic cruise missiles give you a lot more time to react than ballistic missiles, and they’re a lot easier to shoot down. They’re almost certainly tactical rather than strategic, which means they aren’t a huge worry in the grand scheme of things. Even according to Inhofe, they’re more to paper over giant holes in Russia’s conventional forces than they are major strategic threat. IOW, their interest in tactical nuclear weapons is like the US interest in the 1950s and 1960s- a sign of conventional weakness.
Schlemazel [was Schlemizel till NotMax taught me proper yiddish!]
@Jude:
There surly is a code for “SINK ALL BOOMERS”, while it would be interesting to know how well that all would work I can live quiet happily if we never have to find out.
big ole hound
Inhofe is shill for our mighty “military industrial complex”. He should register as a lobbyist. He must create a fear among the natives for more new, very profitable,toys to be made.
Harold Samson
@Linnaeus:
Don’t be so scared. That old hardware is likely a lot more reliable then the “cutting edge” stuff.
srv
@Tim F.: http://fas.org/blogs/security/2014/07/russia-inf/
Did anyone here even know about this until Inhofe emoted?
This is patriotic, just good good cop/bad cop routine as part of his committee assignments. Make Putin scared.
Belafon
@Linnaeus: I agree with you, but the people we’re talking about would prefer to go back to those simpler times, when they can justify keeping white men in charge of everything and money flowing to the defense industries.
Cermet
While I agree with your post and most of what you say, this isn’t exactly right:
In fact, the Russians do keep most of their nuclear ballistic fleet in port. The reason is any and every single Russian “Boomer” has one or more American Attack Subs shadowing it 24/7 in the open ocean. Also, our sound detection system covers 100% of the ocean and allows us to track everything on and under it. The Russians know this and don’t risk any significant number of Boomers in the open ocean.
At rare times they will send out a Boomer to train the crews but never as an attack force array to threaten the US. Besides, what really would they do? The Russians tend to be far more realistic about nuclear war than us and generally, don’t play that game at the level of risk we like to do.
Their attack subs are a different matter and we encourage them to play war with our surface fleet; never our Boomers, however; a Russian attack sub ever get in range of one of our Boomers would quickly go missing … .
Matt
Wake me up when anybody from the military finally admits what we needed all those B-1s for: a stealth first-strike against USSR leadership. There really isn’t any obvious purpose for a slower-than-ICBMs stealth plane firing stealthed nuclear cruise missiles; by the time it was anywhere useful in a hot-war response scenario everybody’d already be dead or at a minimum the serious radar installations would be knocked out. On the other hand, if you’re aiming to conduct a surprise decapitation strike (and are Jeebus-hypnotized enough to actually think you can prevent / survive a counterattack), such planes would be really handy…
Schlemazel [was Schlemizel till NotMax taught me proper yiddish!]
@scav:
Well first boomers don’t operate in 100% of the ocean, more like 5%, so there is that. Then there is the fact that we have all sorts of listening devices that help us locate the Russian subs. Lastly there is not a boomer operating anywhere in the world today that does not have attack boats shadowing it. If the smelly stuff hits the whirly thingy some number of nuclear missile subs will be visiting the other 95% of the sea before they launch, others may get some off before hand.
I’d of course just as soon not try to find out how well that works out for all of us.
boatboy_srq
@Jude: Dad was Polaris and Poseidon. IIRC there is a “launch all” code, but it’s generally tied to the standing orders for the SSBN, so it could apply to primary, secondary or tertiary targets depending on what’s needed – and IIRC there are separate codes for each set.
Suggesting the resulting calamity would eradicate all human life is an irrelevant argument when debating someone convinced that the only thing between now and Eternal Salvation is Armageddon, and that all Good Righteous Xtian Ahmurrcans™ will be Raptured™ before and/or during that event. Inhofe doesn’t care because either consequence fits his cosmology: if there is no war then unGawdly Russkies and other IslamoFascoSoshulists are deterred, and if there is then he’s off to
the fiery pit of Ground ZeroParadise having done his duty and brought about The End Times™. In the meantime, if the MIC is enriched by this idiocy, then the Right People were proven to be among The Elect once again so All’s Right With The World.Villago Delenda Est
Inhofe is regarded as one of the stupidest members of the United States Senate, which is really saying something, when you’ve got guys like Jayuff Sayshuns and his fellow Oklahoman DOCTOR Tom Coburn.
Cermet
@Matt: You mean the B-2; the B-1’s are mostly junk and lack any real avionics defense and offensive systems (I believe four had those systems installed and one of those was lost in a crash caused by a goose.) The B-1 fleet is, remains and always will be a white elephant of little value and of no significant value statically. I know of only one real mission and it was done as a simple dumb bomb raid on Iraq long after we had already completely destroyed their defensive/offensive systems and owned the skies. What a joke that bomber was – a true Ray-gun weapon system – expensive, useless and outdated before a single plane took to the air.
Sir Laffs-a-Lot
Inhoffe is an embarassment to Kansas……and Arkansas and Vermont and the remainder of the 49 other states; Oklahoma get the blame; that’s all.
boatboy_srq
@Belafon: Modern GOTea-speak: treaties are for wusses who can’t/won’t bomb.
Roger Moore
@Mart:
A couple of points:
1) They aren’t as vulnerable as you think. As we learned with MH370, the ocean is a big place, and it’s harder than you think to find anything out there, even a CVBG, especially when they’re doing their best not to be found. They’re also protected by a whole bunch of other ships, which makes them a lot tougher to get to than you apparently think.
2) They’re very useful for a whole range of missions: anti-shipping, anti-sub, tactical support of ground troops, and strategic air attacks. We’ve used them in just about every conflict we’ve been involved in since WWII because they give us capabilities that we want and need. FWIW, nobody has managed to sink one in that time.
Combining these two, it’s important to realize that there’s no such thing as an invulnerable system that can be used without risk. Carriers give us capabilities that we want to have and can’t necessarily get any other way, so we have accepted the risk of one being sunk or damaged to get them. It’s the same thing as strategic bombers and SAMs; there’s a risk of our planes being shot down, but we still use them because we need the capabilities they provide.
Tim F.
@Cermet: We can park it next to the F-35.
Bob In Portland
Have looked at the PDF for the MH17 report. Amazingly, it says very little. People with more understanding of these things will comment on them but it seems to be remarkably devoid of details.
So while I wait until more commentary comes out against them, you can read this about the Nazi militias that Amnesty International points out. Funny how the MSM seems to keep missing the Nazis. Like BJers.
max
The Russians don’t send all their boomers out all the time because of budget constraints. Last I heard, they had two at sea at any given time. (Making for 20-24 warheads, x 2 = 48 impact sites, ~half of those can be awarded to the 25 largest cities in the US and the rest can go to military target. That’s better than half the population of the country.)
Via Srv, the sticking point seems to be that Russia basically put its submarine missiles on a truck. That violates a major nonprolif treaty, so noise has to be made.
The Russians have all their regular ICBMs on trucks and they have a lot of ICBMs, which are a bit hard to find, due to the trucks. First thing I’ve heard about the movement of SLBMs to trucks, not that that would make much difference. Basically they can kill the almost the entire population of the US and Canada in the first hour or two, and bag the remaining 2 or 3 or 4 million (depends!) with fallout, nuclear winter and starvation.
I hope to expect more skepticism from the official leading light of this here blogging industry.
As far as I can tell, some element of the media really wants to go to war with Russia because they unable to grasp that whole bzzz bzzz neutrons whizzing we all die thing. Apparently, they think we can go to regular war with Russia and the nuke thing is optional.
max
[‘EvenTheWaffentwerpRepublic is big on this.’]
scav
@Schlemazel [was Schlemizel till NotMax taught me proper yiddish!]: It is rather something I’d rather not put to the test. I rather assume both … all … sides have tricks and cards up their sleeves they’re not playing in the day to day strutting. I’m more familiar with the looking for ancient boats end of things, plus a past colleague that has played in the Mariana T looking at stuff and a few more that play with the orbiting stuff. So, not much access to the really fun toys.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cermet: Yeah, the B1s were a boondoggle, much like the utterly idiotic SDI, greatest rat hole ever known in DoD history, which is saying something. Perpetuating that fraud and declaring it “operational” is another indictment count on the deserting coward’s bucket list of indictment counts.
Roger Moore
@Cermet:
I wouldn’t be surprised if they were also worried about the political reliability of their sub commanders. It takes a hell of a lot of trust to send a sub out there with enough nuclear firepower to fight WWIII, and willingness to trust doesn’t seem to be in Putin’s psyche. There’s a reasonable assumption that a nuclear war would be proceeded by a build-up in tensions, which would give them enough chance to send their boomers out on patrol if they thought it was necessary. In fact, pointedly sending them out would be a good way for Russia to show how serious they thought the situation was.
Villago Delenda Est
@Roger Moore: The dumbshits of the Navy routinely “refloat” carriers that are taken out in maneuvers by subs, repeating the error of the Japanese admiralty when wargaming Midway.
They are very vulnerable, but no one dares to mention it.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Linnaeus: Not everything newer is better. The giant floppies are far more EMP resistant. Same with those decades-old circuit boards that seem to be giving some people here cramps. Prolly a bunch of vacuum tubes in those silos as well, same idea. Virtually immune to EMP (that’s why the Russians still use them in satellites and fighter jets).
Oh yeah. Hitting “strategic” Russian sites. Might as well fill your home full of gas and then try to light just one match. Bad fucking idea. VladCorp ain’t what it once was, but they’ve got a lot of nasty ass hardware, and frankly we really have no reason to be going toe-to-toe with them anyway. Our problems are largely theirs and vice-versa, and we need some leadership that can understand that.
Robert Sneddon
@Schlemazel [was Schlemizel till NotMax taught me proper yiddish!]: As you say boomers have attack subs shadowing them. The boomers also have friendly attack subs shadowing the possibly-hostile shadowers since boomers are expensive bits of kit and are worth the effort of providing an escort. The problem is that “battleship inflation” has resulted in bigger but fewer attack subs — the new British Astute class is the size and mass of a WWII cruiser but the cost of each Astute means there will be fewer of them than the Trafalgar class boats they are replacing. The Astutes are much better than the Trafalgars, much more capable and effective — in trials between the keelplate Astute and US 688 Los Angeles class boats the Astute got shooting solutions on the older US subs when the LAs couldn’t even detect the Astute. The problem is that there are more jobs for them to do than there will be Astute class boats once production is complete, like escorting the new Queen Elizabeth class carriers currently under construction as well as boomer escort.
The UK and France have come to an agreement, widely known about but not officially admitted to to share the escort duties of their separate Vengeance/Force de Frappe boomers, having them patrol in a limited area of the Western Atlantic off the coast of France with British and French attack subs providing cover cooperatively. This led to an embarrassing accident a few years ago when two patrolling boomers (each country deploys one boomer at any given time) collided with each other in the open ocean.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland: Let’s hear it for Putin’s Nazis, Hodor.
xephyr
I’m no expert on the Russian military, but it’s a pretty safe bet their submarines don’t loiter in the Great Lakes.
Robert Sneddon
@max: Nearly all Russian ICBMs are in land-based silos, just like the US. The Russians have about a hundred Topol-M mobile ICBMs, no more. Most of the Topol-Ms are though to be in eastern Russia, targetting China, India and Pakistan rather than aimed over-the-pole into North America.
Svensker
Except for missing jet liners.
srv
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MattF
Back in the Neolithic Era, when I was a graduate student, there was a fire-breather in the department who claimed that ‘the oceans will be transparent in ten years.’ Didn’t happen. What did happen was that everyone in the ocean got a lot quieter. Funny, that.
Dave
@Cermet: I actually received tactical air support in from B-1’s a few times in platoon/squad sized engagements. It was a joke of course no way they would give a B-1 drop authority for us so basically they fly in low and fast and shoot out a buncha flairs. Looks pretty cool but that’s about it.
boatboy_srq
@Roger Moore: The CVN has been a hot topic in the USN for decades: it’s a high-priced solution with a high profile, and there are alternatives (the RN’s Invincible class, the Italian Garibaldi and the Spanish Asturias,/em>, among others). The Falklands taught the USN a lot just from watching Invincible and Hermes make mincemeat of the Argentine AF, with a quarter the aircraft and at about 1/20 each the cost of a CVN. The USN’s biggest problem is airframes: smaller flattops can’t handle F-18s, and the F-35 program is a mess, but Congress keeps allocating funds for stuff that just can’t fly off anything much smaller, and after the USMC’s misadventures with the AV-8 there’s the conviction that complex VTOL systems and US pilots just don’t mix (which makes you wonder why the RN/RAF could fly the FRS1/GR3 and the Marines couldn’t, but that’s another discussion).
scav
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Bob In Portland
From Salon:
Also, apparently the secret of the Nazis keeps dribbling out. Isn’t it embarrassing to realize you’ve been cheering for the guys with the swastikas?
Paul W.
@srv: Also, its the same kind of slow, quite build up and creeping change of what has been the long term stable status quo that Putin HAS and CONTINUES to use in order to violate international norms in the Ukraine/Georgia/etc.
It is worth pushing back on, especially since it is somewhere into the dozen range of international treaties he has violated. If you don’t punish him now, Putin really will keep going in contrast to (say) Iran, who actually has behaved in a way that does not involve invading neighboring countries and responding positively to diplomacy and sanctions.
Sad_Dem
@boatboy_srq: Speaking of Spanish submarines–it appears that big goof-ups are not just an American thing.
catclub
@Matt: B-1’s are not stealthy. B-2 bomber is stealth.
B-1’s were terrain following, except they underpowered the engines so that does not really work.
I think they hardly ever even fly.
As for not sending Russian Boomers out of port. yes, all may be shadowed by attack subs. How good that tracking is, (better than 99% ??) is not really known until finally tested. Maybe the Russians have different props to put on in case of emergency, so that sound profile will be unknown. Or maybe they simply cannot afford to send them out, plus they do not sufficiently trust the captains to be both independent and loyal.
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: See my link to the Salon article, Delenda. US tax dollars are not funding any Nazis in Russia. They are funding Nazis in Ukraine and have for seventy years. To keep denying this fact makes you an idiot or a willing collaborator. Your choice. So if your position here is that the rest of the world has to get rid of its Nazis before the US gets rid of its Nazis, then you have accepted having Nazis on our side. Just remember, it’s becoming our tradition. Death squads in Latin America to kill union organizers interfering with our plantations. Operation Phoenix.
Mort Sahl, in his book HOMELAND (I’m guessing it was written in the late sixties, early seventies) asked How many times do you believe a lie before you become part of the lie? Well, Delenda, you have demonstrated that you are part of the lie. Salute yourself in the mirror.
catclub
@MattF: What department? Physics? Physicists should know that the ocean is a tough cookie, what with it being conductive.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
So the Nazis controlled Ukraine even when it was part of the Soviet Union?
Fascinating. Tell us more about exactly how that worked.
D58826
Eually depressing are the comments by Darth Vader before the GOP House members today. according to Chaney:
If I remember correctly the airplane tickets and box cutters were on the watch of the GOP super military strategists, not the wimpy Obama types. I’m glad that the GOP doesn’t want to revisit the past, since who wants to look at the steaming pile that they left. Plus it has the advantage that you can make the same mistakes all over again. You would think that fter the mess in Vietnam and then Afghanistan and Iraq that somebody might want to look back and see if we could learn from our mistakes.
catclub
@Bob In Portland:
Since 1944? Interesting.
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: Now you don’t believe Amnesty International because they talk about Ukrainian Nazis? Heh heh.
You know, it will be hard to hold that position very much longer. You may have to acknowledge and minimize: “Yeah, they are Nazis, but they are our Nazis. Their goal of saving the White Race is just rhetoric.”
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
I love how it’s totally unfair for us to look at Russia’s past actions when evaluating their current actions, but the US’s past actions have to be examined under a microscope back to WWII and beyond.
The saddest part, Bob, is that you bought every word of that drivel. In your mania to avoid Western propaganda, you’ve swallowed every morsel of Russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker.
Bob In Portland
@catclub: 1945. Allen Dulles was negotiating with Nazis by then. Prescott Bush was handling Nazi investments in the US throughout the war until the accounts were seized under the Trading With The Enemy Act.
But the eastern European Nazis, that was after the Treaty of Fort Hunt.
Do you need for me to link to The Nation interview with Russ Bellant? Again?
srv
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D58826
@Villago Delenda Est: Didn’t Carter cancel the B1 in favor of the B2 but Emperor Ronulus the Great restarted the program. So I guess we can blame him for that one rather than the hapless 43
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: So you don’t buy Amnesty International’s reports on the Azov Battalion? How comfortable for you, living inside the lie.
Gravenstone
@Jude:
What I found to be one of life’s great little ironies was a college buddy of mine who ended up enlisting in the Navy (long story, we blame his wife). He was a Conscientious Objector who trained as a radio operator. What did they stick him on? An Ohio class Boomer. Through his hands, that potential order for the Apocalypse might have passed.
catclub
@Roger Moore:
Yes, but the Persian Gulf is not.
I am also willing to believe that there are submarines and targets.
Carriers are targets.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
That’s not what you said, Bob. You said that Nazis have been controlling Ukraine since 1944, which would mean that they were in control even while Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union.
Does Russ Bellant address that part of your claim in his interview?
Also, I think we’ve all figured out that in your brain “Nazis” are what other people call “the Illuminati” or “the Trilateral Commission.”
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: And how far back do you want to go with America’s history? How about our wars, coups and destabilizations over the last fifty years? Or is that unfair?
srv
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Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
You don’t buy the reports of DPNI and other Russian neo-Nazi groups involved in Ukraine? How comforting for you to live inside your lie that only Ukraine has neo-Nazis on their side.
Again, if your obsession is against neo-Nazis, I have no idea how you can support Russia’s neo-Nazis over Ukraine’s neo-Nazis. What makes DPNI morally superior to the Azov Battalion?
RSR
Enough about the iWatch already!
Felinious Wench
Still waiting for Bob to explain the Ukrainian Nazis. Or they may be Elbonian Nazis. But they’re Nazis. Somewhere.
I swear, what is it about guys named Bob or have B.O.B. as an acronym?
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
I say we can go equally far back with both countries’ history. Of course, that will make things a little uncomfortable for you as you try to explain away the murder of millions of Ukrainians by Uncle Joe Stalin, but I’m sure you’ll be able to come up with an excuse for him. You always seem to be able to excuse genocide when it’s the Soviets or Russia committing it.
El Caganer
@Mnemosyne: Or what Western media call “nationalist militias.” Bob undercuts his own arguments with hyperbole – yes, there are Nazis in Ukraine, but they’re certainly not a majority, and they’re as much of a threat to the government in Kiev as they are to the rebels.
Comrade Carter
If it’s true we can cover 100% of the ocean using our sources, why haven’t we tipped off Malaysia where they can find their plane?
scav
I’m just waiting for BiP to run in breathlessly announcing that an image of Putin has mysteriously appeared in his toasted Rye bread. Or maybe a profile of same in his lunchtime pierohi. Such personal and extreme devotion merits a sign of some sort. Wouldn’t appropriate stigmata somehow involve the shirt vanishing suddenly?
Roger Moore
@boatboy_srq:
There are more limits than just the fighters. If you want to go with a jeep carrier, you’re going to need all your planes, including ASW and AWACS, to be STOVL capable. I think there’s has also been a long-term worry- reinforced by the Harrier- that your fighters are giving up too much performance to be able to take off from a smaller deck. If the F-35 can allay those worries and let the Navy switch away from big-deck carriers, its outrageous price might actually be worth it.
JPL
@Mnemosyne: Well in fairness they needed the grain from Ukraine to pay the
Koch family.
srv
@RSR: 500 Million iTunes users get new U2 Album for free! Biggest album release in histories! The Bono says it’s as good as their old stuff!
@RSR:
There can NEVER be enough about Apple and Nazis at Balloon-Juice.
Iowa Old Lady
Emergency! Everybody to get from street!
rikyrah
you know he makes me believe that evil does live forever.
……………………………………………..
Behind Closed Doors, Cheney Tells Republicans That Obama Supported Muslim Brotherhood
The former vice president tries to sell reluctant House Republicans on “comprehensive” action against ISIS by blaming the president, of course.
09.09.14
Dick Cheney spoke to House Republicans on Tuesday about the need for military action in Iraq.
With President Obama poised to give a major speech about military action against ISIS in Iraq and Syria Wednesday, Cheney spoke to the assembled Republican congressmen about the situation in the Middle East at their weekday caucus meeting. And while the GOP has been fiercely divided over foreign policy in recent years, Cheney didn’t wade into that debate, instead opting to pillory Obama in front of an audience giving him “rapt attention.”
In Fleming’s account, Cheney said that by “facilitating the Muslim Brotherhood…our policies have been exactly opposite to where they should be.”
According to Rep. John Fleming of Louisiana, Cheney said Obama “has actually done things that have supported the Muslim Brotherhood.” The former vice president then went on to name the Muslim Brotherhood as “the beginning of all the Islamist groups that we’re dealing with now like Hamas and ISIS.”
In Fleming’s account, Cheney said that by “facilitating the Muslim Brotherhood…our policies have been exactly opposite to where they should be.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/09/cheney-tells-republicans-in-secret-meeting-that-obama-supported-the-muslim-brotherhood.html
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: I didn’t say that. I think either you’re misinterpreting things or being deliberately duplicitous. If you read the book TRADING WITH THE ENEMY (I think it was Charles Higham) you will see that there were plenty of American businessmen, right-wing clergy and so forth who were on the Nazis’ side during WWII.
The US government has had discreet relationships with Nazi and fascist movements in Europe throughout the war. Dulles’ posting in Switzerland, for example, wherein he studiously met with “the other side”. Many of the Wall Streeters in the OSS saw Nazi Germany as a partner. The Treaty of Fort Hunt, which absorbed Nazi spy organizations in eastern Europe first to military intelligence, and then a few years later to the CIA, was the beginning of our official though still mostly obscured sixty-nine year relationship with the people who ran the Holocaust for Hitler in that neck of the woods.
I guess if you’re asking me what Russ Bellant said in The Nation then after all this time you’ve protected yourself from reading it. You are a pathetic intellectual coward. Read it and then deny it at least. Go ahead. That will make your Nazification official.
Gravenstone
@rikyrah: You know, at some point we need to just arrest that old bastard for sedition and be done with it. Be a wonderful send off present from Obama. Clapping Darth Cheney in irons, right before his successor is sworn in.
Bob In Portland
@scav: Gee, scav, would that be as miraculous as you being able to ignore the Nazis we support in Ukraine? Funny how this thread started out with how stupid Inhofe is for taking a trip on the Cold War nostalgia boat and how many Juicers end up ready to defend it.
Calouste
@srv:
Now the crown on the side to control the iWatch is certainly a new-ish idea, but hands up everyone who thinks that twiddling with a tiny knob to set the time on your current watch is an enjoyable experience. Then imagine doing that with a slightly bigger knob, but far more often. People have also pointed out that it’s rather inconvenient if you wear your watch on your right wrist.
I think no one has sorted out yet what the purpose of a smart watch is, if there is one. The technology is there, but the physical space is so small that there is little you can read or do. I can see a niche for a heartbeat/step measuring/music device (wireless headphones of course) for runners, that would have very little interface use.
Roger Moore
@D58826:
IIRC, Carter cancelled the B1-A, which was intended to be the spiritual successor to the XB-70: a high altitude, supersonic bomber that would succeed by flying fast enough that Soviet defenses couldn’t deal with it. That was a questionable idea even when the XB-70 came out, and it was laughable with a slower plane quite a while later. It was reimagined as the B1-B, which was more like a bigger, longer-ranged version of the F-111: a low elevation, terrain following deep penetration aircraft.
Roger Moore
@srv:
AKA damning with faint praise.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Still waiting for you to explain why Russian neo-Nazis are part of all that’s good and right, but Ukrainian neo-Nazis must be exterminated.
You can thrash around accusing us of supporting neo-Nazis all you like, but doing so fails to conceal the fact that you’re supporting neo-Nazis, too. The only difference is that your neo-Nazis speak Russian instead of Ukrainian.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Mnemosyne: It offends his sense of truthiness, giving him an uneasy feeling in his gut.
That Neo-Nazis have been stomping poor bastards from all walks of life on the streets of Moscow since the 1990s, with the full knowledge and frequent encouragement of the authorities, would be an impossibility. They’re probably good, faithful Communist skinheads who just really like swastikas.
THREAD OFFICIALLY DERAILED
Trollhattan
For anybody actually enduring the Apple dorkfest, will they be refreshing the ipod lineup or is that now a doomed orphan platform? It’s the only Apple item I own, even if itunes sucks donkeyballs, because they won the music player war.
srv
@rikyrah: So now all you people think supporting the Early-Elections-Muslim-Brotherhood-Takeover in Egypt was a bad thing?
This very blog was filled with “What else can Obama do?”
Well, not support the MB for one thing…
Trollhattan
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Because they’re called “cossacks” and everybody knows that cossacks are cool, especially when they’re whipping the women just around midnight. Also, too, HODOR!
Roger Moore
@Calouste:
I think the smart watch has a few possible functions. Its basic function is to serve as a wearable interface for your smart phone for tasks that don’t require the full screen so that you don’t have to take the phone out of your pocket or purse to deal with them. You’ll be able to get notifications of appointments, text messages, and the like on the watch, and do basic control over the music player. If it has a camera, you’ll be able to use it as a two-way wrist TV like Dick Tracy. Plus it will do fitness functions like a pedometer and heart rate monitor. Most important, it will function as a modern version of watch-as-jewelry.
Bob In Portland
@rikyrah: It’s true that the font of crazed modern Wahhabism comes from the Muslim Brotherhood. They were on the Nazis side in WWII. Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and all. And fighting with the Nazis were the Bosnians, the Hanjar Division, which I believe killed American POWs in Italy during the war. Isbegovich, the leader of Bosnia during Yugoslavia’s destruction and our ally, had roots going back to the Hanjar in WWII. Just like the head of the Croatian independence movement in the 90s had his political roots going back to the Ustachi. You remember what the Ustachi did in the war, right?
The Mujahadeen derived from the Muslim Brotherhood. We gave them arms to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. Remember that? Then they became al Qaeda. I’m sure if we had the records of CIA funding we could draw a line from the Mujahadeen through al Qaeda through al Nusra to ISIS.
Cheney is, of course, lying about Obama being a supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood personally. The US, especially through the House of Saud and with an assist from the BND, has used the Muslim Brotherhood many times over the years. It’s part of the grand strategy of seizing central Asia’s petroleum, through the creation of endless enemies.
Bob In Portland
@CONGRATULATIONS!: There are neo-Nazis stomping people on the streets of America. Actually, shooting people, dragging them behind their trucks, burning crosses on lawns, talking about protecting the purity of the white race. Some of them are elected Republicans. There are cops in uniform who talk eliminationism. So should we impeach Obama?
Zhirinovsky is not a fan of Putin, and was not a fan of Yeltsin or Gorbachev or anyone in Russian mainstream politics. If you don’t know that then you are fooling yourself.
Gangs of fascists in Russia or the US are not the same as what has happened in Ukraine. The US has invested for decades in the fascist movement in Ukraine and that’s why after the coup fascists got ministries in the government. That’s why Ukrainian oligarchs have financed and backed militias that have been used by the Ukrainian army to attack the civilians in eastern Ukraine. That’s why they use eliminationist rhetoric about the Russian-speaking Ukrainians. That’s why you might want to read the Amnesty International report. Or are they crazy conspiracy theorists too?
Bob In Portland
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Full knowledge and consent? Could you provide links? I guess Obama’s letting those neo-Nazis do their killing and terrorizing in the US with full knowledge and consent?
? Martin
@Calouste: Yeah, I think Apple similarly missed the ball on this one. I would have paid for a less feature-laden fitness device that was better attuned to its job, but this isn’t it. Others would have other uses in mind, warranting a different model attuned to that market. This seems like another effort to jam everything into a tiny package and succeed at very little of it.
The payments platform is a different matter. That’ll be huge. It doesn’t look like a game changer given other payment systems on the market, but it really will be.
chopper
HODOR!!!
SatanicPanic
Apple Watch? PFFFFFTTTTT. Lame. Too small. They needed to make it about 50% bigger. And it looks way too understated. If you’re going to spend $350 bucks on a device like that it’s got be more eye-catching. Has no one ever shown Apple a pair of Beats?
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Better read that link more closely, Bob, and follow the links it provides you. Neo-Nazis have far more power and influence in Russia than you seem to think.
So answer the question: why is it bad for Ukrainian neo-Nazis to be fighting in “NovoRussia” but good and right for Russian neo-Nazis to be doing it? And why are you supporting a government that’s using neo-Nazis to fight their proxy war for them?
Helmut Monotreme
@Comrade Carter:
If it’s true we can cover 100% of the ocean using our sources, why haven’t we tipped off Malaysia where they can find their plane?
Because it’s nice, we like it, and we’re keeping it.
Waynski
I hate Illinois, um I mean Ukranian Nazis.
-Elmo Blues
Mart
@Roger Moore: This link came from Balloon Juice. All I know I know from this site. http://exiledonline.com/the-war-nerd-this-is-how-the-carriers-will-die/
I know little about military capability but one comment that seemed strange to me was the ocean is a big place, you can hide an aircraft carrier. First the aircraft carrier is not 20,000 leagues under the sea(until the Chinese blast it); second they fly aircraft, and last I heard there is radar and sateillite imagery. I do not think aircraft carriers or other ships have imaginary cloaks. From the link:
“The purpose of the Navy,” Vice Admiral John Bird, commander of the Seventh Fleet, tells me, “is not to fight.” The mere presence of the Navy should suffice, he argues, to dissuade any attack or attempt to destabilize the region… On board the Blue Ridge, the vice admiral’s command ship anchored at Yokosuka, huge display screens allow officers to track the movements of any country’s military vessels cruising from the international date line in the east to the African coast in the west—the range of the Seventh Fleet’s zone of influence.
Calouste
@Roger Moore:
I think notifications of appointments is useful. For text messages, a notification is not enough because you would often want to reply to those. So you would need a good working voice input for that, because you can’t type on a watch. Basic control over the music player is probably easier done via the headset, because that would have dedicated button for it, where on your watch you would need to switch either to a music player interface, or you could make that the default if the music is on, but then you would need to switch every time you want to do something else.
And watch-as-jewelry, well, it would show of that you have cash to spare, but not many smart watches so far, including this Apple watch, have been anywhere close to stylish, partially because they have to be square.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Trollhattan: They sure did. Listening to my Android phone is a disgraceful experience compared to any of the Apple stuff (they all use the same DAC chip). Worst part is, it wouldn’t cost the Android folks more than maybe 5 bucks to throw in the same chip and get some goddamn quality on the platform.
iTunes is the worst piece of shit software ever made by anyone.
Roger Moore
@? Martin:
I don’t see how the Apple payments system is going to take over. There’s a huge networking advantage to existing card payment systems, and merchants are only going to pay extra for a new payment system if it gives them an advantage. As long as the iPhone payment system is tied to an existing credit card, they can already accept payment without the iPhone. The only way they benefit enough to justify paying for the new system is if it reduces fraud enough to lower card processing costs.
Mike in NC
Saint Reagan proposed building a 600 ship Navy. He didn’t particularly know why, but it was a nice round number.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Bob In Portland:
Why are you amazed? You read and understand that it’s a “Preliminary Report”, right? It’s in bold right on the cover page.
It is interesting to see that you admit to commenting on things that you don’t understand, and that others have more understanding. Thanks.
It’s interesting to see that you admit to having your mind made up and are now waiting for your talking points from
Putin TodayRT to confirm your view. Obviously, the report from the Dutch Safety Board is wrong, because, well, it’s obvious. Right? What with the CIA funding Nazis in the USSR all those many years. Right?Such honesty in your post. It’s almost as if it was a Freudian slip or something. You’re not feeling a bit guilty, perhaps, about being so credulous about the Russian line on these recent events by chance, are you?
(sigh)
Cheers,
Scott.
(In case it’s not clear, emphasis was added.)
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Bad jacketing. Are you saying that Russ Bellant is a conspiracy theorist? The Illuminati, as far as I know, don’t exist. The Trilateral Commission is still around, but I don’t think I’ve discussed anything about them.
Now, we know that Nazis existed and that they still exist. There are videos of Nazis in Ukraine marching under those wolf’s cross semi-Swastikas. There are fascists in Ukraine’s current government heading ministries.
Are you, Mnem, denying the existence of Nazis in the Ukrainian government? Are you denying the existence of neo-Nazi militias that have been fighting in eastern Ukraine on the side of the government? Those are pretty easy questions. Yes or no? I imagine that as the cowardly intellect you are you won’t answer. Nazis in Ukraine. Yes or no? Look, you can be a Nazi supporter by default. Just don’t be so smug about it. It soils your neo-liberal patina.
Bob In Portland
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: You may not remember, but Kerry and Obama assured the US public that Russia/the rebels shot down the plane. Now maybe Kerry and Obama won’t share this slam dunk proof with the world, but did they withhold it from the Dutch investigators?
How curious. The report says something outside of the plane blew it up. There are streams of information that weren’t addressed. I expect others to address what they didn’t address soon. Just remember that falsified tape that Ukraine released immediately after crash. There’s no going back.
Yeah, that absolute proof of Russia shooting down MH17. All right there for you to see, like the emperor’s clothes.
catclub
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2014_09/second_thoughts_about_a_use_of052026.php
So is the funding for this adventure going to be discussed? I was hoping for a war tax on the 1%.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Bob In Portland: Hint:
They’re not going to say who shot the plane down even if everyone (except Bob in Portlandia) knows who did it based on a mountain-range of evidence. That’s not their job.
HTH!!!
Cheers,
Scott.
Helmut Monotreme
@catclub: temporary tax on vodka and firearms?
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Do you pay taxes to Russia? Do you live in Russia? As a citizen of the world, what country do you consider to be your responsibility?
Do you live in the United States of America? Did you support your tax dollars supporting death squads in Central America? Did you support your tax dollars supporting the overthrow of Allende? Glad that we spent those several trillions in Afghanistan and Iraq? I read a comment somewhere that American liberals are the last to figure out US foreign policy okeydokes. That’s probably not true, but it does take you a long time to figure things out and you get resentful when it’s pointed out to you. Understandable. Get over the resentment.
Are you American?
Are you a fucking idiot? I don’t like fascists, period. But I don’t like my country supporting fascists. That seems to be what you keep missing, which is how you end back up in the black-white propaganda. When you point out that Russia has fascists, I could point to the Republican Party here in the US. I could point to the House of Saud. I think they beheaded 17 people last month. Now, as much as I detest the Saudis, as long as Seal Teams aren’t doing the beheading or paying for them I keep my loathing for them on the back burner.
But the US backing fascists in Ukraine? Just like the death squads in Latin America. I guess you supported them back then too. And the monstrosity of the Phoenix Program. A-OK in your book?
I knew you wouldn’t answer my question. Intellectual coward.
Linnaeus
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Good point. I hadn’t thought about that.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Why are you backing a government that uses neo-Nazis to fight their proxy war?
Thanking you in advance for your mealy-mouthed deflection of this question.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Just in case you forgot the questions, has the US backed fascists in Ukraine since the end of WWII? Yes or no?
Are there Nazis in the Ukrainian government? Yes or no? Are there fascist militias fighting against Novorussia? Is the US on their side? Which side are you on?
You understand the difference between Russia and the US, right?
Hell, you don’t even understand fascism.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland:
The projection! It’s blinding me!
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: How does a blind man go blind?
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Again, I need you to explain how the US was backing fascists in Ukraine from 1945 to 1991. No, I’m not going to read a 300-page book full of deflection and handwaving. Explain it to me now, in your own words: how was the US “backing fascists” in Ukraine while Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union?
El Caganer
Since this thread has found its way to Ukraine, here’s a link to a McClatchy article about Russian troops there: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/09/09/239299_best-evidence-russians-are-in.html?sp=/99/117/&rh=1
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Nope. Now will you stop denying that there are Russian neo-Nazi militias that are currently operating in Ukraine, or will you go back to pretending that Russia is not using Russian neo-Nazis in their little invasion?
Pot, kettle. Kettle, pot. At least I’m honest enough to point out that there are neo-Nazis on both sides, Ukrainian and Russian. You keep lying to yourself so you can pretend that you have a moral high ground of not supporting neo-Nazis when that’s exactly what you’re doing.
Russia has empowered their neo-Nazis, and those Russian neo-Nazis are now causing mayhem in Ukraine. But you don’t care, because Russian neo-Nazis are on the Right Side, unlike those naughty Ukrainian neo-Nazis who are on the Wrong Side.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@El Caganer: A good read. Thanks for the pointer.
Cheers,
Scott.
Waynski
I’m so bored of the U U Kraine, but what can I do?