Serious question- Is a 911 call all police need for probable cause to bother people, and do you have to produce id to them when you are just minding your own business? And what if you don’t have one?
For the life of me, I have no idea why the cop there didn’t walk up to the car, look at them, decide there is no there there, and move on. Instead he decided to be a sarcastic asshole- his tone of voice alone would have made me yell at him. But that’s another issue in and of itself.
And where is the audio of the 911 call? I’d like to hear what exactly was said. And before you judgmental pricks start saying the actress should have been calmer, remember that black people go through this sort of crap EVERY single day, so she has every right to be agitated for both having some jackass call the cops on her and the cop being all sarcastic and condescending to her.
beth
I love how TMZ feels the need to put the old-timey tape recorder with the reels spinning so we know it’s a recording. I guess they think if we just look at a static photo without any motion we wouldn’t be able to focus our short attention spans long enough to hear the whole thing.
Jaybird
I don’t understand how people can oppose voter ID and yet support walking around ID.
But then, I’m a glibertarian.
Belafon
I was thinking about that: Maybe it’s about time that us white males stop thinking about stops by cops as being rare occurrences. When they happen to us, what rights do we have? What are the legal options of a person that is pulled over – if in a car – or approached – if not in a car? And the answers we come up with should apply to everyone.
I have been thinking about this as I drive home after work and see cops with someone pulled over. More than I think should occur, I see the cops doing a search of the car, with the person on the side of the road. It’s happened to me once, and I let it occur because I didn’t know how to not have them search the car.
I have wondered about how a lawyer could drive on the highway and, if they saw someone stopped on the road, could pull up and advise the person of their legal rights.
Beyond understanding the law, the point is to get people to stop thinking “it doesn’t happen to me so it’s not a big deal.”
Rafer Janders
Serious question- Is a 911 call all police need for probable cause to bother people, and do you have to produce id to them when you are just minding your own business? And what if you don’t have one?
Short answer:
1. Is a 911 call probable cause? Maybe, maybe not, but usually not. Probable cause means that the officers are required to have a reasonable suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person’s belief that certain facts are probably true, so it requires an on-the-ground assessment. An anonymous 911 call ain’t usually it.
2. In most states, you are not required to produce ID absent an arrest. A detention, by itself, is not usually sufficient to trigger an ID demand (as opposed to an ID request).
3. You are not required to carry ID. If you are arrested and don’t have ID, however, you are not likely to be quickly released until you are able to establish your identity.
Roger Moore
@Jaybird:
Does anyone? I thought that most of the advocates of voter ID were the same kind of law and order conservative who thinks the police should be able to demand people’s papers for no obvious reason.
rea
You don’t need probable cause to stop and question people–but you do need a reasonable articulable suspicion of criminal activity, based on objective facts. A 911 call from an anonymous informant is good enough if corroborated by the circumstances–the exact boundaries are unclear–see Navartte v Caliornia, a case with an unusual 5-4 breakdown:
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/572/12-9490/
SP
By using the term “play that race card” he kind of gives away his views on the whole subject, doesn’t he?
Bobby B.
From the war on drugs which has been going on far longer than this blog and is well represented by the site Drug War Rant. But that old WOD doesn’t get much play here, does it?
Comrade Dread
Yes, IANAL, but I believe there was a Supreme Court decision that stated that you had to show ID to a LEO if it were within the parameters of his duty. So yes, I think she was in the wrong and she should have just shown her ID or calmly explain that she didn’t have it on her.
I was sympathetic to her until I heard the audio. Her account of the incident painted her in the best possible light and the officer in the worst, and I think the audio disputes her account.
You may protest that she shouldn’t have to show ID, and I would agree, and you can argue that given the history of black folks with the LAPD, she had a right to be defensive, and I would also agree, but the officer was within the law and, at least from the audio, didn’t seem all that belligerent and just seemed like he was trying to do his job and was getting tired of her giving him crap for doing it.
So if you’re asking who the a–hole was, I’d put it at least 60/40 on her.
scav
adding to the odd behavior by cops pile, ran across this:
Mexico sheriff pleads not guilty in case related to disputed traffic stop
wenchacha
There’s a recurring discussion going on that the couple were having sex in the car “with the car door open!!!” I don’t know how much of that is rumor, but it certainly figures into the defense of the PO’s attitude.
For me, if they were having sexytime in a public place, probably a bad idea. Being inside a car doesn’t really make it a private matter. This is America, and we are too uptight for that kid of PDA.
On the other hand, it does seem like the officer is insensitive to her without a ton of reason for it. He didn’t “catch” them doing anything. He could’ve just asked them to move along. And for those of us who came of age in a different time, just because a cop asks for your ID doesn’t mean we have to surrender it.
I am really irritated that citizens can be picked up and held for quite a while until it is decided there was no crime committed. My own kids have been rousted by police in their teens. The questions were always accusatory, there was no respect toward my children, who were not in the wrong. This is just in a mostly white, mostly white-collar class suburban area. I imagine it is far worse in neighborhoods with less money and more diversity.
rb
@Comrade Dread: but I believe there was a Supreme Court decision that stated that you had to show ID to a LEO if it were within the parameters of his duty.
No, you assume that is the case. Incorrectly, as it turns out.
The remainder of your comment reduces to “she is uppity.”
Rafer Janders
@Comrade Dread:
There was not. I believe you’re thinking of the Hiibel case, but in that case the Court only held that Nevada’s “stop and identify” statute wasn’t per se unconstitutional. They also made clear that a detainee could satisfy the “stop and identify” requirement by giving his name and was not required to produce written ID.
beth
What was his rationale for cuffing her? I really didn’t get a “dangerous” vibe from her at all. Why couldn’t he just talk to her without the cuffs? Did he think she was hiding a weapon under her tight t-shirt? If anyone was a threat to him it would have been the boyfriend.
beltane
We live in the era of the cell phone Stasi. Get used to it.
Jaybird
Roger, has your “does anyone?” question been answered to your satisfaction?
gogol's wife
@SP:
Yes! This a-hole is making my blood pressure go through the roof! I can hear in her voice how she tries to start by being calm, and his supercilious attitude just makes her angrier and angrier.
Rafer Janders
@Rafer Janders:
To clarify: the police don’t need probable cause to come up and question you. They can do so anytime. They do, however, need a reasonable suspicion to detain you, and most likely probable cause to arrest you.
gogol's wife
@Comrade Dread:
You are obviously male. Women hear that supercilious, “now, now, little girl,” tone in his voice and we go nuts. I’m white so I can’t imagine what happens when you add being black to that. Just listening to this has made me extremely upset, because it replays conversations I’ve had with similar jerks.
Mike G
@Roger Moore:
The advocates of voter ID are the kind of law and order conservative who thinks the police should be able to demand papers and harass “bad people”, but would be screeching with outrage if it happened to them.
The Thin Black Duke
The people who think this ain’t no big deal are the people that never have to worry about this shit happening to them.
When that cop saw that there was no crime being committed, all the motherfucker had to do was walk away, but he chose not to do that.
Why?
So he could remind this African-American woman of what her status is in White America.
Again.
rb
@wenchacha: I don’t know how much of that is rumor
Let me help: all of it. Otherwise there would have been an arrest.
Sorry, cuffing someone because an anonymous tipster thinks they saw something and tattled is not OK.
And I would expect an experienced LEO to be a little sensitive to the possibility that this particular unsubstantiated hot tip concerning “public sex in a fancy car!!!!!omgeleven!!” might have resulted from (a) ignorance, (b) racism, (c) a heaping helping of both, or – a distant 4th option – (d) an honest mistake.
But then I expect LEOs to act like trained professionals and treat citizens with respect even if said citizens get a little upset at having their hands forced behind their backs and being shackled, touched and manhandled against their will.
But here at BJ I’ve been informed that not behaving like a condescending prick (to say nothing of not engaging in unlawful restraint and detention) is far too much to ask of our precious “heroes.”
? Martin
@Roger Moore: The advocates for voter ID are precisely the same people who think a national ID is the mark of the beast and evidence that the antichrist has arrived.
I wish I was being snarky, but the honest to god rule is ‘White people are their own ID by virtue of being white. Everyone else needs to prove their validity whenever it suits the whims of white people.”
See the movement now to prevent police from demanding to see a weapons permit.
Tommy
I have to ask. Put aside the black in this story. I think a lot of that going on. I am a dude. Male. You said ““now, now, little girl.”
That lady could speak for herself. Did not need a man to speak for her.
shortstop
“Thank you for bringing up the race card. I never hear that.”
I share his horror and despair at the racial victimization of white cops everywhere. It’s just out of control, innit?
? Martin
@beth:
Jesus, can you not see how black she is? ‘Dangerous’ is written all over her!
shortstop
@Rafer Janders: However, California has “stop and identify,” so you are required to produce it there upon request, no?
ETA: @Rafer Janders: And I should have read on before commenting.
raven
Someone explain what she was going to accomplish by putting someone on the phone?
Jaybird
Wait, so is being asked for your papers by the police something that everybody should automatically be expected to do or is it something that the police should freaking know that they shouldn’t expect to get away with in a free country?
I can’t tell from your comment.
Keith G
I guess we will see whose account holds up to further scrutiny.
rb
@Tommy: Put aside the black in this story
ROFL.
Jeebus christmas.
shortstop
@Tommy:
Tommy. Just stop.
Villago Delenda Est
@Roger Moore
Exqueeze me. Excessive melanin is always grounds for demanding people’s papers.
elmo
I haven’t viewed the video, but I did read a transcript of part of their encounter. After he knows he is not going to arrest her, he takes a little time to instruct her about the nuances of power in their interaction. He tells her he is more powerful than she is. He asks her if she knows who handcuffed her, and says that of course it was she, herself, who did so.
All so very calmly. As if to a child. All after he knows she will not be arrested, that he will be letting her go without charges, and so for no other reason than to abuse her.
I am horrified at the possibility that this prick may have kids. If he does, he abuses them. No doubt in my mind.
Calmly.
Fucking sociopath.
Tommy
@? Martin: My mom runs elections in her town..She isn’t so liberal. She calls me after every election and is livid. In tears. Asking why more people do not vote. I say this over and over here. I can vote faster then I can get a Big Ma. So easy for me to vote.
Comrade Dread
@rb: Yes, yes that is exactly what I was saying (rolls eyes.)
@Rafer Janders: Fair enough. As I said, I wasn’t entirely sure. I just recall being pissed about it when it came down.
That changes my opinion to it being about 50/50 regarding who the a–hole was.
Villago Delenda Est
@? Martin: Prezactly.
rb
@Keith G: Thanks for bolding “eyewitnesses.” They’re always reliable.
Again: it is rumor. Whether it happened or not and whether cop believes it happened or not, he has no justification for restraining her. He is power tripping.
Villago Delenda Est
@The Thin Black Duke: Alas, it is all too easy to draw this conclusion. Bitch needs to be reminded of her place. Stop being so uppity!
It sickens me, because it indicates how far from professional that LEO is…or how “professional” is so distorted by racism and arrogance in the LEO community.
elmo
@Villago Delenda Est:
You make mistake. I fix.
shortstop
@shortstop: And even more, California does not have stop and identify. So NEVER MIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIND.
Botsplainer
Instead of just sniping at them from rooftops (potentially satisfying, but needlessly destructive and badly criminal), I find myself musing about a middle approach where they’re disarmed at gunpoint by crowds, hands bound by their own stripties or cuffs, their badges removed and scuffed on pavement, their Glocks and Tasers dissembled and the pieces tossed in the weeds. As the crowd disperses, you call for help on the cops own radio and leave him laying next to his cruiser after having tossed his keys and sugared the gas tank.
Villago Delenda Est
@beth:
The REAL rationale, one that will not come up in any legal proceedings that may result from this, is “black bitch was being uppity and needed to be put in her fucking place”.
Betty Cracker
@Keith G: If that actually happened, surely video will surface. There’s just no way the Art Directors Guild witnesses didn’t whip out their phones to record the public shagging.
Jeff
This cop is an asshole and I hope this incident ends up making his life miserable. He should have told them there was a report of lewd behavior and that that is not permissible in a public place, then please move along.
Cacti
24 states require you to identify yourself to law enforcement if you are being formally detained. The way to find out if you’re being detained is to ask the officer requesting your identity:
“Am I free to leave?”
If the answer is yes, you’re not obliged to identify yourself or answer any questions.
If the answer is no, it is generally sufficient under “stop and identify” statutes to give the officer your legal name, address, and/or date of birth. To my knowledge, only Colorado requires production of a photo ID if you have one and you’re being detained.
If you are being detained, after you’ve identified yourself, you may explicitly invoke your Fifth Amendment right to silence.
scav
To continue pile. Because, like climate change, there’s the trend beyond this single exact incident. Oklahoma state trooper charged with kidnapping and rape. Please note they bring up two separate officers in this article (one involving three women so far, the other eight).
For the specific incident most discussed in the thread here, there are class issues, there are race issues, and there are gender issues all tangled up, plus the usual local policing differences. The diversity of responses and expectations based on past experiences could get interesting.
Personally, I am getting the vibe that this whole incident escalated when somebody didn’t properly kiss up to the cop.
Villago Delenda Est
@elmo: Reluctantly, I can’t really disagree with your correction. I wish I could, for I always try to hold out for professionalism, but sadly, you’re in the right here.
Cacti
@shortstop:
California did have a stop and identify statute, but it was held to be unconstitutionally vague by SCOTUS.
SatanicPanic
@Keith G: And no one made a video to sell to TMZ? I am skeptical.
rb
@elmo:
All of this right here, emph added. And trust me, the video only drives your point home.
But she had the temerity to be upset about being forced to endure that humiliation and belittling lecture in front of her husband and while powerless and handcuffed, not to mention knowing full well that if cop wanted to make the encounter even more of a violent assault he can do that with temerity (as he oh-so-calmly makes clear).
And so because she did not diligently and quickly enough get to bootlicking, for some it’s a “50/50 situation” as to “which one’s the a-hole” in this encounter.
Villago Delenda Est
@Betty Cracker: Your point, it is relevant here.
If there was public shagging, it would have been on PornoTube by now.
Joel
@Comrade Dread: ahole is the 911 caller first and foremost.
Keith G
@rb: That is the point. To the extent that this is an issue in progress, we will be made aware of what the various participants and spectators thought was going on.
Matt
@Comrade Dread:
Bullshit. There’s one person in this conversation that has authority to use deadly force and a job that’s (on paper) about protecting and SERVING the public. If cops have a problem “being held to a higher standard”, they can resign and go back to being regular jackoffs.
shortstop
@Villago Delenda Est: @Betty Cracker: Video or not, Keith’s actual message is that we fellow libruls are doin it rong. Again.
Villago Delenda Est
@rb: I am reminded of Ralph Wiggum’s eyewitness testimony of a romantic encounter between Principal Skinner and Mrs. Krabappel: “Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies and the baby looked at me!”
shortstop
@Villago Delenda Est: I’m not easily taken aback by things sexual, even if they’re not my thing. But because of the parties involved, that one made my stomach lurch.
planetjanet
Who, in their right mind, calls 911 for people making out in a car? Why isn’t the caller being arrested for a frivolous report?
El Caganer
A white cop gave a black woman a bunch of shit just because he could? Well, I’m damned! Who ever heard of such a thing?
Villago Delenda Est
@planetjanet: Christianist fuckheads. Oh, wait, you included “in their right mind” in your question.
SatanicPanic
@planetjanet: Yeah, don’t people know 911 is for emergencies? Unless someone just sat on the regular police line for twenty minutes to report people making out
rea
The way to find out if you’re being detained is to ask the officer requesting your identity:
“Am I free to leave?”
If the answer is yes, you’re not obliged to identify yourself or answer any questions.
If the answer is no, it is generally sufficient under “stop and identify” statutes to give the officer your legal name, address, and/or date of birth. To my knowledge, only Colorado requires production of a photo ID if you have one and you’re being detained.
This is all very true in theory. In practice, following this script got one of my clients (white kid in his 20s) tazed three times. We got him acquitted of resisting and obstructing, though.
Keith G
@shortstop: Respectfully, no
Barry
@rb: “Thanks for bolding “eyewitnesses.” They’re always reliable.”
If I were the LAPD and I had the recording of an eyewitness claiming to be witnessing actual public sex, then I’d have used that in defending the officer.
Rob in CT
@rea:
Consequences for the cop? I can’t believe I’m asking, but… maybe something? Anything?
Cacti
@rea:
Yes, when people know their rights, it has a tendency to anger “officers of the law”.
Mustang Bobby
@Villago Delenda Est: And it would be under #iliketowatch.
Comrade Dread
@Joel: That, I agree with.
Joey Maloney
@Botsplainer: I like it, but I wouldn’t want to own property in that neighborhood the next day.
Villago Delenda Est
@Rob in CT: A pat on the back for a “righteous cuffing”.
The Dangerman
@Matt:
…that has a shit job (by definition, I’m calling any job where you occasionally get shot at and where you have to be on alert for your entire shift for being shot at a shit job).
I think the common courtesy of just “going along to get along” should be the code of conduct here; at least to the limits of what we can hear in this conversation, she was the one that principally inflamed inflamed the situation (I think 60/40 is kind to her; I’d place it closer to 80/20).
ranchandsyrup
@Jaybird: do we need to denounce stalin or the broccoli mandate?
Belafon
@rea: And that’s a lot of reason the cops get away with what they do: Most people neither have the will, the time, or the money to have an interaction with a police officer to turn into a trial. And that includes me.
Darkrose
@planetjanet: THANK YOU!
If two people fooling around in a car is worth dispatching an officer on a 911 call, I may know why the ambulance took their time getting to our house the evening my father died.
Betty Cracker
@The Dangerman: Shitty or not, the cop was on the job, and part of the job is (or at least should be) treating citizens with courtesy and respect. I think the woman acted like an ass and made extremely poor choices (it’s just dumb to rile up cops — maybe it shouldn’t be, but this is reality). But she’s a private citizen who wasn’t engaged in illegal activity when the cop arrived. It’s not a crime to act like an ass, and it’s not her job to coddle cops’ egos. It IS his job — or should be — to serve citizens, of which she is one. It’s a hard job for sure, but there it is.
NorthLeft12
All this discussion about whether you have to show your ID to a cop when asked to is really pointless when the cops believe that they must be obeyed by anyone that they talk to.
So, the cops ask you questions and you must answer in a way they like, or they will take it to the next level. Try not answering, or being evasive and see how quickly they have “reasonable suspicion” to detain you. Which I guess, depending on who you are or how the cop feels, means being cuffed and/or forced into a submissive position.
I wish the solution to this was better trained cops and better informed citizens, but as long as the cops are in such a position of power over their fellow citizens I don’t see things changing.
Botsplainer
@Joey Maloney:
Removing and scuffing the badge is, in my mind, the best part.
It is a potent symbol and damages something that they are each very proud of – ordering the replacement would be humiliating.
Having to send the Glock pieces to the department armorer is just the cherry on the sundae.
Darkrose
@The Dangerman: Yup. Uppity bitch should have known her place.
Betty Cracker
@NorthLeft12: Excellent points. One reason I can’t jump on the #offthepigs bandwagon is that I actually know a few cops who seem to be truly dedicated, empathetic public servants. Maybe the answer is to figure out how those cops retain their humanity and how to replicate that result.
The Dangerman
I agree but I’m empathetic to the cop, especially reacting the way he did to “the race card”. For example, I was in Union Station in LA the other day getting a sandwich (at Subway) and it was hot, I was tired, and, to a point, I could have entirely been at fault in the situation that developed…
…which was, as I approached the clerk to pay (at Subway, they kinda guide you along and my attention was mostly on the Subway person, not my surroundings), somehow I got a little too close with a small African American child. Don’t know how it happened (again, it was hot and I was tired and, at 6′ 7″, sometimes looking down and seeing a small child approaching me isn’t something I always catch) but, there it was. The woman with the child, I presume the Mother, starting berating me and went there … I was a White Man that was somehow trampling on the “African American” (in quotes because that was not the words she used). My jaw dropped. I glanced at the Cashier and her jaw was equally dropped (she looked in a state of shock). Now, I could have made a scene, too, but I apologized and quickly walked away (“go along to get along”)…
…but the race card getting played when it may not be warranted is incredibly offensive.
scav
@Darkrose: It’s basically, if Daddy has a bad Day, everybuddy has a bad day, cuz Daddy gotta Badge. Rule of Law, punks! You dun this to yourself. Shudda not moved and took what’s coming to you.
lots of interesting cross-vibes between the issues involving violence and unquestioning submission / obedience to existing “traditional” authorities going on here.
coloradoblue
Link to states with Stop and Identify laws, California is not on this list as of 2013.
shortstop
@Betty Cracker: Most people in this thread know cops who are dedicated, empathetic public servants. It bears repeating one more time that good cops aren’t the problem. Good cops who cover for bad cops make rampant abuse possible. And there are many, many more good cops who circle the wagons than there are bad cops.
Nothing will change until the police start truly self-policing — and they don’t seem to want to do that.
shortstop
@The Dangerman: You have to be a Poe.
NorthLeft12
@The Dangerman: Yes, this was an extremely dangerous situation here for this hero to handle.
This situation is exactly what is wrong with most police forces. The petty flexing of their power over citizens in an inconsequential incident. I doubt that any of this officer’s supervisors or fellow cops will ever talk to him about how he could have handled that in a better way and emphasize how they have contributed to making the relationship between the police and public a little worse over nothing.
The Dangerman
@shortstop:
No idea what Poe is. Does it mean a really nice guy? I agree!
Comrade Dread
@shortstop: I wouldn’t call this guy a bad cop. A bad cop would have ended this encounter with a taser or a baton. If, as in Ferguson, he ended it with a gun, I’d call him a criminal.
This guy was doing his job, met someone who was uncooperative, and perhaps responded inappropriately by detaining her instead of saying, “Both of you move along then.”
At worst, I think he might need a refresher on interacting with a hostile citizen and their rights under the Constitution.
beth
@The Dangerman:
Bingo! Now you’re getting it. Sucks, doesn’t it?
SatanicPanic
@The Dangerman: I feel your pain brother. Right now I am dealing with particularly tenacious hangnail.
John Cole +0
@gogol’s wife: I heard it, and I am not a woman. It was the condescending prick voice.
Jaybird
@ranchandsyrup How about police unions?
Personally, I think that the police unions are part of the problem with the culture found among police and their basic assumptions that those who aren’t police are “civilians” rather than “fellow citizens”.
I think we should abandon police unions… or, at least, put police unions on the table for what the police have to lose if they keep acting like a gestapo. (Remember when we used to make jokes about East Germans having to provide papers to the police for such things as walking around on the sidewalk? The music was so much better back then. Guitar solos. Sometimes more than one!)
shortstop
@SatanicPanic: Oh, hell yeah. People are all “gunshot wound” and “broken leg” and “septic shock” and shit. When do they start empathizing with your pinky?
lethargytartare
@The Dangerman:
your slip is showing
Rafer Janders
@shortstop:
Just to clarify, California DOES NOT have “stop and identify.” If a policeman says “papers please, citizen” you can always say no, unless that policeman has a clear and reasonable suspicion you are presently engaged in the commission of a crime.
SatanicPanic
@shortstop: it’s worse than that. It’s my middle finger. Really impairing my ability to stick it to the man
NorthLeft12
@Betty Cracker: Thanks Betty for the feedback.
I have been involved in organizations that needed a complete culture change and unfortunately I have found that it is very difficult to achieve in the short term.
The best results that I have seen occur were in two instances;
1. A volunteer organization which completely replaced all the executives in one fell swoop [Girls Soccer Club].
2. My current place of work which came within a hair of declaring bankruptcy in 2009, was bought out by a Middle Eastern investment interest, and quickly dumped most of the top executives, then invested a huge amount of money into the company on a long range plan to make us profitable.
I think this needs to start at the top and the police executives need to be replaced or “inspired” [I prefer replaced} to get back to serving the public….ALL of the public in a manner that builds respect and trust.
drkrick
@Betty Cracker:
When the “dedicated, empathetic public servant” cops place calling out the power trippers among their colleagues above going along to get along with the rest of the thin blue line I’ll stop grouping them all together. Until then, they’re just a slightly smaller part of the problem.
Rafer Janders
Here’s a short and handy way to think about this:
A policeman can ask you for your ID at anytime. You also, at any time, can just say no. You can also walk away from him, unless he has detained you. In order for him to lawfully detain you, he has to have a reasonable and articulable suspicion that you have just engaged in, are currently engaged in, or are just about to engage in, a crime. Absent that, you are free to go.
And you are always free not to speak. So if a policeman asks you something, shut up.
Here’s a skit of how it should work (caution: may not apply if not white man):
Policeman: ID, please.
Me: No.
Policeman: I said ID, please.
Me. And I said no. Am I free to go?
Policeman: No, you’re not.
Me: I see. Am I being detained? Do you have a reasonable and articulable suspicion that I’m committing a crime?
Policeman: You’re free to go.
drkrick
@beth:
Now imagine it happening with someone who knows they can tase or shoot you with impunity.
beth
@NorthLeft12:
Conor Freidersdorf had a video posted recently of some kids in Clearwater that were punking the police by walking around with fake beer steins. While I disapprove of punking the police, it’s worth watching to see the first cop’s response to the kids. She uses the “f” word a few times and calls one of the kids a “retard”. In the Mike Brown case, Darren Wilson allegedly told them to get the “f” out of the street. I think just using words that don’t irritate and inflame would be a good starting point for training police officers. When did they start talking to the public like they’re conversing with buddies in the locker room? Aren’t they supposed to be the adults in the room?
Jaybird
You left out the *WHAM* *WHAM* *WHAM* “STOP RESISTING!” *WHAM* *WHAM* followed by the “he made a furtive movement toward his belt, I had to assume that he was reaching for a weapon”.
“We’ll put you on paid leave for the weeks or months it will take to investigate. We are sorry that this had to happen to you.”
Punchy
Fixed, cuz you’re living in a DREAM world if you think what you wrote is how a cop would respond to a non-compliant person.
The Tragically Flip
Is there ever a non-racist reason to whine about the “race card”? The Race Card Card, the card you play when getting called out for being racist.
Rafer Janders
@The Dangerman:
Bull. Whenever a law enforcement officer approaches you, the rules of common courtesy go out the window. You have to protect your legal righs first and foremost. “Hey, just do me a favor / just do this to be a good guy / you wouldn’t mind if I searched you” etc. etc. is one of the key cop techniques to get people to waive their rights and comply.
Here’s an example of common courtesty that should have been applied, though: for the policeman not to assault and handcuff an American citizen for the crime of exercising her constitutional rights.
Betty Cracker
@beth: A state trooper I met once told me that he was trained to subtly assert his authority over people he pulls over for traffic stops by calling drivers by their first names — even if they’re are old enough to be his grandparents. I’m not one to stand on formalism, but I think that’s appalling.
KG
there’s no simple answer to this. i wish there was, but there’s not. it’s the result of a toxic soup. decades of police militarization. centuries of racial issues (not to mention rich vs poor) that has led to selective enforcement. a breakdown/complete lack of trust between the public and cops in too many places (two way street, justified or not).
on an unrelated topic, shit be getting interesting in Kansas… senate seat my be a toss up, Brownback in trouble, and now the Republican Secretary of State is losing ground because of his fight to keep the Dem on the senate ballot.
shortstop
@Rafer Janders: I think this needs to be broken down even further. There is detention and there is consensual conversation that does not involve detention — and it can be really hard to tell the difference, sometimes because cops have a powerful interest in blurring the lines.
A cop making casual conversation with you, including asking questions, does not automatically equal detention, but the police will not hesitate to use any information gleaned in a consensual conversation against you, no matter how informal the chat may be and regardless of whether they had cause to start the conversation. So that’s why it’s important to ask whether you’re free to go or if you’re being detained. My understanding is that lots of people never see the slope from “we were just shooting the breeze” to “he was detaining me” happening, with fairly dire results sometimes.
Rafer, rea, Cacti, tell me if I got any of that wrong.
ETA: This is part of what I’m talking about — just saw it: “’Hey, just do me a favor / just do this to be a good guy / you wouldn’t mind if I searched you’ etc. etc. is one of the key cop techniques to get people to waive their rights and comply.”
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Rafer Janders: I basically want to say “This” to all of your comments on this thread.
ranchandsyrup
@Jaybird: how about purity tests or perceived hypocrisies?
raven
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): So you see an assault there?
Rafer Janders
@The Dangerman:
A shit job? It’s a highly desirable job, relatively well-paid, secure, and with a good pension and benefits. And no, most cops “don’t occassionally get shot at” — it’s not even one of the ten most-dangerous jobs in the US. Being a roofer or a commercial fisherman is deadlier than being a cop.
But you know, if he doesn’t like his job, he can always quit and give someone who can actually handle the job with some professionalism a chance.
The Dangerman
@Rafer Janders:
Bull. This is why things get blown well out of control sometimes.
Here, I’ll provide a Cliff’s Notes summary as I take off this morning:
(1) Police are not always the enemy; they want to go home to their Family at the end of their shift, too;
(2) There are obviously bad cops and they should be rightly targeted for corrective action (or, as in Ferguson, a trial) but it’s not always the cop that’s in the wrong;
(3) I humbly apologize for comparing my sub “hangnail” to a police incident but I don’t have any “septic” personal experiences (perhaps it’s because I have no problem in “going along to get along” as I want to go home at the end of the day, too).
Jaybird
I’m more interested in applying purity tests to public servants authorized to kill citizens. As for perceived hypocrisies, I find them interesting only insofar as when they seem to go unnoticed. If they’re noticed and still embraced? I imagine that they’re performing some societal function.
What’s your opinion on the cops doing this sort of thing, by the way?
Rafer Janders
@shortstop:
A good cop who covers up for abuse and circles the wagon….is a bad cop.
shortstop
@Rafer Janders: Commercial fishing again! That girl from the Maritimes sure gave you an education. Wait, that sounds dir-tay and I didn’t mean it that way…
Snarki, child of Loki
#NotAllCopsAreBad
#NotAllDogsAreRabid
Cacti
Point of clarification. If you are stopped while operating a motor vehicle on a public road, the driver does have to produce license and registration information when requested by law enforcement, because there is no constitutional right to operate a motor vehicle on a public road (hence the reason why comparing voter ID to a driver’s license is stupid and facile).
However, this requirement does not transfer to adult passengers.
ranchandsyrup
@Jaybird: unnoticed = you don’t care as much as i do, amirite?
Then you do the purity test. I don’t like abuse of authority. But I don’t think that the existence of them tars the entirety of police actions and/or their unions.
brantl
@The Dangerman: You’re a schmuck, then.
Rafer Janders
@Comrade Dread:
In the course of my job, I meet people who are uncooperative with me all the time. You know what I do when that happens? I let it go. I don’t, when one of my business counterparties doesn’t give me the answer on a deal that I want, respond by assaulting and handcuffing them. I don’t illegally detain them until they give me what I want. In fact, I think that if I did that, I’d get arrested myself.
I can’t quite figure out why I’m supposed to remain composed and professional with uncooperative people in the course of my working life but a policeman isn’t….
shortstop
@Rafer Janders: Which makes, what, 97% of cops bad? Maybe. I personally find enablers of the sick much worse than the sick, whether it be otherwise standup cops circling the wagons around their criminal brothers or priest/bishops covering up for pedophiles in their ranks. But I’ve given up trying to get most other people to see it that way. Suffice it to say that cops couldn’t go on being abusive without the express assistance of their professional colleagues. If people start understanding that, we have a way in to the problem.
brent
If that is all this cop wanted, then there was nothing in the world stopping him from achieving it. Watts didn’t cuff HIM after all.
He was well aware that there was no crime. He had no reason to detain Watts. She made her position on providing ID extremely clear. If his concern was for his ability to get through the day without conflict then he had every opportunity to avoid just that by obeying the fucking law and leaving her the fuck alone.
But of course, he didn’t, which tells me quite clearly that his motivation is not to do his job and “go home to his famiy” but to demonstrate his power of a law abiding citizen.
raven
@brent: HE didn’t start screaming and calling HIS daddy either.
ranchandsyrup
doublepost
Cacti
@Rafer Janders:
This.
Police officer is one of the few jobs left where you can make a good living with good salary, benefits, and job security, with only a high school education.
The 10 most dangerous jobs in the US are:
1. Commercial fishmerman
2. Logger
3. Aircraft pilot/flight engineer
4. Garbage collector
5. Roofer
6. Structural iron/steel worker
7. Construction laborer
8. Farmer/rancher/agricultural manager
9. Long haul truck driver
10. Oil worker/miner
Rafer Janders
@Punchy:
Well, I’ve had that same interaction several times — been stopped, asked for ID, asked to search me, refused and walked away.
On the other hand, I’m a professional, middle-aged white man, often wearing a suit and tie. So somehow it IS possible for the police to obey the law — if, that is, they imagine that there will be consequences for them if they don’t. They actually CAN control themselves — if they think they’re dealing with someone who has the power to retaliate.
Now the question is, how do we get the police to give everyone the same common courtesty and respect that they give someone like me….?
scav
@Rafer Janders: Because he’s got a gun and a badge and the expectation that everyone needs to make his life cosy because his job is dangerous (unlike all those other jobs that are only statistically more dangerous) and people are discourteous to him (unlike every other job on the planet) and he has a family to go home to (unlike most other people with or without jobs) and well, basically, he’s a cop and it’s dangerous, so respect him now matter how he behaves, how well he knows the actual local laws, let alone follows them, and while we’re at it could you ignore how the it’s dangerous card is played like the get out of consequences card for all incidents, despite the massive and subsidized kitting up with ex-military toys?
brent
@raven:
Correct. I have no idea why you think this is relevant or in any way prevented the officer from obeying the law but thanks for pointing out that meaningless fact.
jl
When I lived in LA and surroundings the police culture was to take a pretext, they got from somebody or thought up themselves, and make a ‘there there; whenever they felt like it, or needed to fill there quota for tickets or hassling people, and then be a holes about it. That as SOP, unless you were the ‘right’ kind of person (basically at least upper middle class white or famous, though if you weren’t white, being famous sometimes was not enough).
I was told once by a commenter on this blog that things were changing, but now I see this. But, if they are not making a game of beating up Hispanics, lower class SE Asians, and blacks, then that would be some improvement.
I don’t know enough to judge, but this brings back unpleasant police contact memories in LA for me, and i was a total white bread middle class dude when I lived there. So, I an imagine what other types of people who live down in LA area are thinking.
ranchandsyrup
@ranchandsyrup: nor do I think that good LEO actors clean the slate for all. No false choices.
Rafer Janders
@raven:
And…so? How did that force him not to go on his way?
People have screamed at me on the streets of NY for some perceived infraction, and I managed not to handcuff and detain them in response. I just tipped my hat, wished them a good day, and carried on. Why can’t this cop?
Cacti
Since it’s too late to edit, I’ll add to the post about jobs more dangerous than police officer, how many people would find it socially acceptable for a commercial fisherman or the local garbage man to say “I’ll do whatever it takes to make it home at night”.
Also too, nearly half of police killed in the line of duty are killed in automobile accidents. Maybe if they want to “make it home at night” they should obey the speed limit and wear their seat belts like the rest of us peons.
Southern Beale
Well, he got her ID all right.
I thought she sounded surprisingly calm, in light of the situation. I would have been screaming my head off, even WITHOUT having to deal with this kind of BS on a daily basis. The cop comes off like a giant asshole.
jl
As I and several other commenters have noted in the past, LA and surrounding urban areas were designed way back in the day to be very cheap cities to administer. Part of the Board of Control plan was to fill the place with white bread from the middle west, who would be the pillars of the community and the real citizens with real rights to be respected.
Racial and ethnic minorities, hobos and working class and poor whites were problems to be controlled. So police where concentrated in the bunker like stations, and would venture into the community and extract the ‘bad guys’ who were causing problems. The Mafia keeping the neighborhood a ‘nice place’ seems a model of community policing in comparison.
So, the problematic attitude down there has a long long history and very deeply embedded in the many police departments down there. Totally different relationship between police and community in other parts of California. San Jose has some LAPD type problems with respect to poor SE Asians and Hispanics, but they actually are trying to do something about it. Which would work much better if the city, and particularly their cruddy mayor would admit their plan to slash police pay and benefits and keep a viable force has been a total failure.
Southern Beale
@Roger Moore:
Every one of the wingtards I know who supports Voter ID because “vote fraud” also supports crap like “papers, please” because “illegal immigration.” And every one of those asshole wingtards gets their panties in a giant wad when asked to walk through an airport security scanner because of Warrenterra.
See Josh “my red hair and pale skin IS my passport, bureaucrats!” Trevino.
Jaybird
About petty hypocrisies? Why should anyone put effort into caring about such trivialities?
I care more about stuff like bad cops being protected by institutions that should be serving the public instead of serving bad cops.
Out of curiosity, what do you think the solution is? An internal inquiry on the part of police? An occupy protest with Hamas flags flying? Fewer Republicans and Glibertarians obstructing Democratic politicians trying to reform LA?
burnspbesq
@Belafon:
If I did that, I would expect to be arrested for some nonsensical thing like “interfering with governmental operations.” Cops expect instant and unquestioning obedience, and when they don’t get it, any interaction is likely to go sideways in a hurry.
kc
Oh my God, that cop is a DOUCHEBAG.
kc
@Belafon:
In Columbia, SC, a lawyer asked some cops on a sidewalk why they were arresting his friend. Their response was to arrest the lawyer, charge him, and throw him in jail overnight with another person who committed suicide in the cell that night. Then the cops lied and said he was interfering with the arrest. However, there was video, either from a street camera or a local business (not the cops, natch) and it showed that they were lying.
The lawyer sued the PD and won.
raven
@brent: And I don’t give a fuck what you think.
raven
@Jaybird: Figure out how to use the damn blog will you?
kc
@kc:
Link
brent
@raven:
Another irrelevancy. You’re doing well today.
ranchandsyrup
@Jaybird: put the LOOGies on it. they are all smrt.
Privatized police force only for the rich must be the only answer.
raven
@brent: I’m doing just fine.
burnspbesq
@Rafer Janders:
More likely, your scenario will play out something like this.
Policeman: ID, please.
Me: No.
Policeman: I said ID, please.
Me. And I said no. Am I free to go?
Policeman: No, you’re not.
Me: I see. Am I being detained? Do you have a reasonable and articulable suspicion that I’m committing a crime?
Policeman:
You’re free to go.I do now, smartass. You’re under arrest.You: On what charge?
Policeman: Interfering with an investigation. Turn around. Hands behind your head.
You: What th–[statement interrupted by being thrown face first against the nearest building]
Jaybird
You know, sometimes I wonder if we’d be better off abolishing prison and disbanding the police entirely.
This is not to say that everything would be perfect and that we’d live in a (g)libertopia if we abolished prison and disbanded the police entirely… just that we, as a society, would be better off.
And I honestly doubt that will change anything with regards to how much extra protection is afforded to the rich. They will continue to purchase their own privatized police.
Southern Beale
Speaking of Josh Trevino, there is something very weird going on with his Twitter feed right now.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Rafer Janders:
Institutional culture. But you knew that. As an example, in today’s news:
Indeed,
Belafon
@burnspbesq:
@kc:
I’m under no illusions that, right now, the cops would attempt to call it interfering with a police officer performing his duties. But there really should be a “I claim my right to a lawyer” that doesn’t require going to jail to get advice on your rights.
I’m pretty sure it would have to involve a camera, the perfect third party observer.
Belafon
@Jaybird: No. The first thing that would happen would be the establishment of a police force. It happened in the Wild West.
Rafer Janders
@burnspbesq:
See my comment 127 above — it’s played out exactly as I described it — because I’m a professional, middle-aged, successful-seeming white man in a suit and tie. So when they have to think a minute, when they have to consider “hey, if I fuck with this guy, can this come back on me, could this jam me up?” (and it would, because I have money to hire lawyers and have friends and family who are state and federal judges and prosecutors and in City Hall) then they’re somehow able to let me go on my way without me complying with them.
Which all goes to my point that they’re basically lawless bullies who only respect a power greater than their own. Which has to change.
ranchandsyrup
@Jaybird: could you unpack exactly how this would be better, besides codifying that only rich ppl merit safety?
Jaybird
Would the new police force be more responsive to the citizenry or less?
I hear a number of stories about police exercising petty power, not really caring about crimes that don’t involve forfeiture, and otherwise not really being that useful outside of keeping drunk drivers off of the road. (#notallpoliceofficers, of course)
Would the new police force be one worth unionizing?
Jaybird
“could you unpack exactly how this would be better, besides codifying that only rich ppl merit safety?”
Well, for one thing, there’d be fewer police officers doing the shit that we see in the original post.
Do you see that as a price you’re willing to pay for the amount of protection the police provide you, ranchandsyrup?
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Jaybird: Please consider using the reply button. This is the first of your responses that I can readily identify as a response to a particular comment.
raven
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): I ask again, do you see an assault?
Jaybird
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): I’m used to reading every comment, I guess. I will try to use the reply button in the future.
NorthLeft12
@beth: I agree with you 100%. If the cops would conduct themselves in a professional manner, I believe they will increase the level of respect they receive, as opposed to bringing themselves down to the level of criminal or teenage punk.
ranchandsyrup
@Jaybird: i understand your assertion that there would be fewer. I’m asking why you are asserting that (outside of yr hope that it would end up that way). Could you show yr work, please?
NorthLeft12
@Punchy: I could not have said it better. Turning your back on a police officer and walking away with a virtual “eff you” in that scenario is a pretty risky venture. I don’t think you would get away with that more than twice.
raven
@Jaybird: Reading the comment has nothing to do with it. You pose questions and post comments that that seem to be for specific people but it’s impossible to tell who they are.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@raven: You didn’t ask me, but what’s the context of the question? Assault of whom, by whom? I’m just being nosy. Congratulations on your L ear’s victory with the VA.
MomSense
@Keith G:
The eyewitness was so upset by this alleged indecent behavior that he watched the entire thing–all the way to the the clean-up after the act was done???
Ok, this is hilarious.
raven
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): “Here’s an example of common courtesty that should have been applied, though: for the policeman not to assault and handcuff an American citizen for the crime of exercising her constitutional rights.”
So my question was directed at this”
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name) says:
September 16, 2014 at 1:55 pm
@Rafer Janders: I basically want to say “This” to all of your comments on this thread. “
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@raven: I did reply; it seems to have been eaten. Yes, I do see an assault. Assault, generally speaking, is an act that creates the immediate apprehension on unwanted or harmful physical contact. Also, I think that the officer also committed battery. He made unwanted or harmful physical contact with her.
Jaybird
@ranchandsyrup: Well, for one thing, I am googling the number of private citizens who handcuffed a complete stranger in the middle of the street after asking for papers and I’m not finding any.
I honestly think that, in a society where the police had recently been disbanded for abuse of authority, we wouldn’t have quite so many people asking for papers.
(Additionally, I suspect that an absolutely *HUGE* amount of crime is caused by the war on drugs and the police corruption involved with the war on drugs. While not all of the violence would disappear when the police corruption did, at least the violence that happens under color of law would disappear.)
As for the violent crime that all of us think about wanting the police for (murder, property crime, assault, so on and so forth), these numbers have been doing better for a while and for reasons that don’t strike me as being related to the number of police asking people for their papers (lead, abortion, so on).
Now, of course, it’s absolutely fanciful of me to wonder if the police being disbanded would make things better. It would never, *EVER*, happen.
But I do think that there are grounds to think that we’d be better off without them, all things considered.
raven
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Jaybird: Even reading every comment, one can’t always tell who is replying to what or if it is a stand alone comment.
raven
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Would that not apply to anyone that was cuffed then?
Jaybird
@MomSense: Hilarious indeed. I find it impossible to believe that this happened without it showing up on the internet somewhere. Smartphones are everywhere and people humping in a car is probably somewhere near the top of the list of things that would make passersby say “hey, this is worth putting on Vine.”
The fact that someone claims eyewitnesses but is unable to produce footage tells me that someone is fabricating.
ranchandsyrup
@Jaybird: you heard of the minutemen? not the band, the border ppl. I have personally viewed them doing this.
I dispute your presumption that stats that have been “doing better” due to LEO activities would continue that trend in their absence.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@raven: The police can do it if they have a legal justification. The problem here is that they had no legal justification to take Ms. Watts into custody. Under the circumstances, she was completely within her rights to walk away without answering any questions. The cop had no more right to restrain and cuff her than you or I would have.
Jaybird
@ranchandsyrup: I dispute your assertion that the stats have been doing better due to LEO activities. Out of curiosity, could you show your work on that? (I’d be more than happy enough to find numbers and links related to lead and/or abortion having an impact on crime, if you’d care to see them. I suspect that you’ve already read articles discussing such things, though, and wouldn’t really benefit from me repeating stuff you’ve already heard.)
raven
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Thanks for the clear explanation.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@raven: The clarity was accidental, I am sure.
Villago Delenda Est
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): This guy should have stayed in the military if he wanted to be saluted.
Quaker in a Basement
I blame Hugh Grant for all of this.
ranchandsyrup
@Jaybird: fair enough. would revise to, “in part, due to LEO activities”. still object?
kc
@burnspbesq:
Then the policeman pounds on you, whilst shouting, “Stop resisting!”
raven
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): Not at all.
Jaybird
@ranchandsyrup: Given that I see the war on drugs and stuff like the OP as very, very bad indeed, I don’t know that what would fill the vacuum of the police being absent as worse than what we have now. I imagine it’d be something somewhere between the Yakuza as idealized and the Mafia as shown on television but, again, I don’t know that that would be worse than what we have now. I can see reasons for why it’d be better.
shortstop
@raven: You didn’t have to touch him — that’s the point. Threatening bodily harm verbally or via physical action (i.e., getting up in someone’s face with your fist raised) is simple (not aggravated) assault in Illinois if it can be reasonably construed as causing the other person to believe you are going to strike him. If you did that, he was correct in saying you committed (simple) assault.
navarro
mr. cole, you are on fire today. i don’t know when i’ve seen you having this many great posts in one day. speaking as a middle-aged white guy i have routinely asked for a reason when asked for i.d. and have refused to give it on a few occasions when the rationale seemed weak. at no time have i ever been hassled about my attitude, put under arrest or detained, and certainly never cuffed. white privilege has given me a much different relationship with law enforcement than my black and hispanic friends have had. these jerks need to be disciplined and anyone who thinks that this actress is the asshole needs to spend the rest of their lives being treated like people of color.
thanks again mr. cole.
raven
@shortstop: Fuck him, he was a punk and he knew it. I did, however, keep my hands down. Loaded but down.
eta, It’s probably good you’re the only one that read the post before I deleted it.
LAC
@raven: “For example, suppose a neighbor reports a burglary at your house and police arrive at the moment you happen to be carrying a computer out of the house. They would have a reason to detain you to investigate the burglary call, but you might be able to clear up the situation by showing your ID to prove you live there. In that case, refusing to show ID could make their investigation take longer even though it’s not illegal to refuse.”
Unless of course you are black college professor who owns said home. Then it’s cuff time.
shortstop
@raven: If I read it, a thousand people read it. But I don’t think you told us anything new.
rb
@raven: HE didn’t start screaming and calling HIS daddy either.
Yeah, best not to be doing that, or the cops will put you in the hospital and then try to throw you in prison.
ranchandsyrup
@Jaybird: i know you don’t see it those ways. but there must have been some reason erryone set up police forces how they do. maybe it is deterrence under imperfect mechanisms to control the uses of force?
raven
@shortstop: Whatever.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@raven: @Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name):
I agree, of course, with Omnes. In OH, the assault contains the battery element. I also wanted to say “this” to all of Rafer Janders’ comments.
ranchandsyrup
i know, only the market is perfect. humans are animals so glibs demand that they all act like them.
raven
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Yea Shortstop explained it all to me as well.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@raven: I was not one of those thousand, Bobdamnit. I am admittedly cranky today.
raven
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I didn’t delete it because I was worried about what I said or who read it. I deleted it because it wasn’t germane.
Bobby Thomson
@lethargytartare:
IFTFY.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@raven: I knew that! But I’m still sure it was interesting, and I missed it. I’m doing my best impersonation of a whiny 4 year old. And it was an excuse to type “Bobdamnit.”
Bobby Thomson
@The Tragically Flip: This.
My Truth Hurts
@The Thin Black Duke:
This ^
shortstop
@raven: Just saw your edits to this. Again, it’s not just the hands, not just the physical moves. If you threatened (in words only) to hit him and he could reasonably believe that you would do it, that’s simple assault too in IL.
Felanius Kootea
@The Thin Black Duke: Bingo!
Rafer Janders
@burnspbesq:
You know who else also expected instant and unquestioning obedience….?
Felanius Kootea
@The Dangerman: Yeah it’s really shitty when people call the cops on you for looming over a black kid you didn’t even notice was in your path because their assumption is that as a white male you must be a pedophile.
That’s what you meant right?
Raven
@shortstop: I’m crazy but I’m not stupid. I just dressed his ass down and dared him to do something about it. My wife didn’t like but she didn’t really see what he did .
JasonF
I was talking to a police officer yesterday. There was a major crime right in front of my house, so the cops were there in force. Anyway, the officer I was talking to was saying that when they first show up, if there are witnesses who they think won’t stick around, they will take the witness’s ID until they give a statement to the detectives. He said “People think their ID belongs to them. It doesn’t. It belongs to the state.”
This same officer was also complaining about surveillance. Apparently, there’s a Homeland Security camera nearby that may have caught the crime on film. The officer was saying that things like that are wrong, and we’re giving up our rights as a society. He also raised the very legitimate question as to why we need a Homeland Security camera there (I’m in Chicago, but nowhere near anything that might be considered a Homeland Security target).
currants
@Belafon: Way late to this thread but these publications are incredibly useful: https://www.nlg.org/resource/know-your-rights
Harold Persing
I’m as slow as molasses and as impatient as most – a/k/a I didn’t read the entirety of the comments.
However, it’s always to useful to note the “facts,” as best those things can be ascertained. Ditto the context.
Those things being said, I’ve little use for doctrinaire, biased cops.
Jaybird
@ranchandsyrup: Well, let me know when the status quo gets to be so bad that you’re willing to change.
I imagine I’ll have some suggestions for you.
Jaybird
@ranchandsyrup: I trust markets to act like markets more than I trust cops to not act like animals.
But, again, let me know when the cops finally do something bad enough for you to say “we have an obligation to change.”
Matt McIrvin
Here’s a society with no police at all:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/09/rape-culture-in-the-alaskan-wilderness/379976/
Maybe we need to get rid of all existing cops and start over. But I think we need something.
Jaybird
@Matt McIrvin: You know, I read that article and it specifically talks about people going to the state troopers. Here’s what it says: “Troopers will go forward with the investigation, regardless, if the victim wants to press charges, but it’s often tougher for district attorneys to build a case. That, and the high numbers of victims who recant their testimony—or refuse to give it in the first place—are a large part of the reason more than half of the reports that reach state troopers never make it to the DA’s office.”
Maybe the state troopers need a stronger union.
Gex
I’ve wondered about this quite a bit since Lawrence v. Texas actually. Because those poor fellows got in trouble with the law because a neighbor called the police and said one had a gun and there was trouble. Turned out the neighbor just had a problem with the gay couple in the neighborhood. And the cops ended up arresting them for violating sodomy laws, apparently unperturbed that they have citizens lying to them and wasting their time.
Moreover, between that and the things we’ve been seeing prominently in the news these days, what are the consequences for these false reports? You’d think these “don’t fuck with me bro” cops would come down hard on the people lying to them. But I guess if it’s Real Murikans ™ sicing them on the wrong kinds of people they don’t mind too much.
Arclite
@beth:
His rationale was : “Talk back to the cops, get the cuffs beeotch.”
Uncle Ebeneezer
So to the legally astute people in here: what constitutes “reasonable suspicion?” And from what we know of the incident, was there enough to justify Watts being detained? Just curious.
Arclite
@Villago Delenda Est:
I think it will come up during her lawsuit against the city. :) Coppers fucked with a black person who has money. Let’s see how that works out for them.
Jaybird
@Matt McIrvin: And in thinking about this some more, that’s a really, really awful situation and I don’t know how to solve it… but I’m pretty sure that “more cops” would result in little, if any, change.
I’m not saying that the situation in Alaska should stay the same. Heaven forbid! I’m just saying that putting (more) cops up there won’t change it.
JaneE
I have absolutely no evidence to support what I think, but I would bet money that some sanctimonious, racist ass wipe saw a black woman with a white man, and decided to make the call to cause them grief.
People just used to avert their eyes, or maybe make some noise, if they thought that people were behaving inappropriately for a public place. Maybe I am just too old, but I find it hard to imagine someone dressed as she was having sex, fully clothed, in the front seat of one of today’s cars on a street in the middle of the day. OTOH, 50 years ago it was not unheard of to see men masturbating in the front seat of cars along Hollywood Blvd. About 35 years ago my neighbor’s teenage daughter and her date pulled into the driveway to bring her home, only to find a drunk 20 something from 2 doors down using their bushes as a urinal. Even that didn’t used to merit a call to the cops, just a lot of gossip and “I can’t believe what I just saw”.
Mnemosyne
@Jaybird:
From the story, it sounded as though even the people living in the middle of it didn’t think that more cops would help much. As hippie-ish and “Kumbaya” as it sounds, they’re probably on the right track to bring things out into the open and talk about it, especially for the boys and men who’ve been victims of abuse who’ve had no outlet to discuss it.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@JaneE: The above passage is a great guideline for the ID requirements of a valid detention with reasonable suspicion but it tells us nothing about whether this incident qualifies.
In front of her workplace, don’t forget.
Public urination still probably happens in Hollywood, but I doubt car jerk-offs in the daytime are pretty rare.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Uncle Ebeneezer: @Uncle Ebeneezer: @JaneE: Whoops ignore first paragraph. That leaked over from my FB argument on this topic.
Jaybird
@Mnemosyne: When I was in college, I heard rumors about the girl’s bathroom stalls being filled with graffiti talking about how this guy was a bad guy or that guy couldn’t be trusted. Now, I never independently verified this… but it doesn’t strike me as obviously silly.
Maybe we should give a shot to hippieism and kumbayaism. Let the community get together, talk, and talk some more. Let everybody know that everybody will know. Let society and culture pull its weight for once.
ranchandsyrup
@Jaybird: lmao. You completely misrepresent my position. Hysterical in both senses of the term.
Jaybird
@ranchandsyrup: Both senses of the term? You mean it’s a comment that comes from someone with a womb?
Adam Lang
@gogol’s wife: I’m not usually the ‘not all men!’ kind of guy but I’ll tell you right now, his fucking smug superiority sure comes through loud and clear to me. “Ha ha ha little brown girl you have no rights if I say you don’t, now be a good little citizen or I will make your life a living hell.” At the same time, when she said ‘publicist’ I could practically hear him thinking “Hmm, I better not actually tase her.”
Bets on how it would have turned out if she’d looked and sounded a little lower on the socio-economic totem pole?
CommishTheFirst
So this middle aged suburban white dude read to the bottom of this probably-dead thread, trying to educate myself. A few thoughts:
– Cop sounds like a dick.
– He was investigating a report of lewd acts in public, a misdemeanor. To answer JC+0’s original question: yes, a 911 call gives cops the right to bother people who fit the description of individuals reportedly involved in a crime, at the scene of that alleged crime.
– Everybody assumes he saw no evidence of the act. Maybe dude was zipping up as the cop arrived. I’ve never been interested in public sex but since the thrill is supposed to be based on the risk of getting caught my guess is those who are into it don’t generally hang around very long to enjoy the afterglow. If the cop didn’t actually catch them in flagrante delicto, it was probably immediately after.
– @ the commenters who cite “serve and protect” ironically: cop was serving the person(s) who called to report lewd acts in public. Not the privileged rich Hollywood assholes who were probably looking for a thrill by screwing in public view.
– If the “don’t you know who I am” card was being played by a rich white male, or anyone who’s ever voiced conservative views, most of the wind would blowing in the opposite direction.
– Django sucked.