.
My hero, Professor Krugman, on “Wild Words, Brain Worms, and Civility“:
…[P]icturesque language, used right, serves an important purpose. “Words ought to be a little wild,” wrote John Maynard Keynes, “for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.” You could say, “I’m dubious about the case for expansionary austerity, which rests on questionable empirical evidence and zzzzzzzz…”; or you could accuse austerians of believing in the Confidence Fairy. Which do you think is more effective at challenging a really bad economic doctrine?
Beyond that, civility is a gesture of respect — and sure enough, the loudest demands for civility come from those who have done nothing to earn that respect…
…[T]he worst [kind of bad faith], as far as I’m concerned, involves refusing to take responsibility for your actual statements. “The failure of high inflation to materialize doesn’t mean that I was wrong, because I only said that there was a risk of inflation”. “When I said that Obamacare spending adds a trillion dollars to the deficit, I wasn’t misleading readers, because I didn’t actually deny that the ACA as a whole reduces the deficit.” And of course, people who engage in that kind of bad faith screech loudly about civility when they’re caught at it.
When there’s an honest, good-faith economic debate — say, the ongoing controversy about the effects of quantitative easing — by all means let’s be civil. But in my experience demands for civility almost always come from people who have forfeited the right to the respect they demand.
***********
More, of course, at the link. Once we’ve all shared a metaphorical cigarette, what’s on the agenda for the day?
BruceFromOhio
More metaphorical smokes, please.
BillinGlendaleCA
@BruceFromOhio: I only got the real ones.
Baud
Praising incivility is stupid. It only makes sense if you adopt conservatives’ views about what is uncivil, and in their views, what is uncivil is the very existence of people like Krugman. But there is no reason to adopt their thinking in the first place.
Mustang Bobby
It’s my birthday: sixty-two, and it’s a rather important birthday: I’m now eligible to begin the retirement process from my job. Don’t plan the party just yet; I’m going into the DROP (Deferred Retirement Option Program) and in five years I’ll leave with a monthly pension and an investment account. So gather around on July 31, 2019 for the real party.
Baud
@Mustang Bobby:
OMG! Retirement. I can’t wait. I hope you have plans. One of the saddest things is retirees without a plan for what to do.
Mustang Bobby
@Baud: The plan is to find something fun to do like part-time work for a theatre company, tutoring, or freelance writing. I can’t imagine not working, so I see this retirement as just changing to a new job while still getting paid something from the old one.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I’m incredibly uncivil, I even use the very uncivil 3 letter word, LIE.
Debbie(aussie)
Good read.
Some of you might be interest in an Aussie economist John Quiggan, he writes at crooked timber, has had articles published in The Guardian and other Aussie papers. He also has a book ‘Zombie Economics’, of which the zombie was mentioned in Mr Krugmans article. http://johnquiggin.com/
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Good example. “Lie” is not uncivil when it’s accurately used and justified. Only when used against conservatives is it considered uncivil, but who cares?
Krugman’s “confidence fairy” example is also not uncivil.
If you want an example of true incivility, read a John Cole post.
Baud
@Mustang Bobby:
Awesome. Don’t have too much fun that you forget to comment here!
raven
@Mustang Bobby: Go get em young’n. I’m off to the VA for my second hearing test. I got my medicare card in anticipation of my upcoming 65th and hope to work for a couple more years to get to 20 years in the system. It ain’t great but it’s too late to do anything about it now.
Chris
In addition, civility is supposed to go both ways.
Are people like Krugman treated respectfully by those calling on him to play nice? Is Elizabeth Warren? Is Obama? No. So why unilaterally grant respect when they have no intention of reciprocating?
raven
@Baud: Fish. Also, Younger Next Year: A Guide to Living Like 50 Until You’re 80 and Beyond was good.
raven
@Mustang Bobby: Funny you would post a picture of that Stang. I was visiting my grandparents in Margate in 1965 and a high school buddy was in Miami at the same time. He had one of those and we went out drinkin and drivin one night. He ended up too hammered to drive and I spent about 4 hours driving that bad dude all over Dade County. Did I mention it was before I had a license?
Rebmarks
You know how some couples give each other a pass to sleep with one celebrity of their choice? Mine? Krugthulu. ?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Debbie(aussie): A good read indeed. Thanks for the link.
Randy P
@Mustang Bobby: I turn 62 in November of 2019 and I plan on retiring then. So sure, I’ll come to your party and you can come to mine.
I have too many things I still want to do with my life and I’m running out of time to do them.
I recognize that if not exactly an adrenaline junkie, I do need something in my life providing deadlines, some sense that my output matters to somebody. And I recognize that a lot of people who retire find themselves suddenly lost and afloat, and end up, well, dying within a couple of years (Dr. Bernie Siegel has pointed out how often the number “2 years” keeps popping up).
But I’m still ready. I have plenty of things lined up to keep me busy.
Mustang Bobby
@raven: My dad had a ’61 T-bird convertible and sold it before I was old enough to drive it legally. I finally got to drive one a few years ago and thought it would be a tightly-suspended road car and fun to drive. Well, it floated like a cloud, and when you turned the wheel it was about a quarter of a turn before anything happened…”Oh, you was serious about that?” But it’s still a great-looking car, and it’s one in my fantasy garage.
The problem with driving in Miami-Dade County is that there are no hills or turns: just straight lines that abruptly end up in canals.
Mustang Bobby
@Randy P: Count me in, Randy P. And no, I can’t imagine not working, but at least it will be at my own pace and with the ability to say, “Nah, not coming in today; there’s an antique car show in the Keys.”
Kay
Ohio’s got a big voting battle going on. The issue is whether they can cut in-person early voting when black voters use in-person early voting at a higher rate than white voters do.
So far we’re winning, but they’re not giving up.
The thing about this is, early vote was a concession Democrats got in 2006 when Democrats couldn’t stop Ohio’s voter ID law in the legislature. It was a trade. Democrats got the better end of the deal, as it turned out- early vote (positive effects) is much more valuable to Democrats than suppression (negative effects) is to Republicans. I don’t know that anyone predicted that early vote would be so popular among African-American voters, or that it would offer such an organizing advantage (young people). Maybe they did. I wasn’t aware of it, anyway.
Republicans know that now, which is why they now have to get rid of early vote.
raven
@Mustang Bobby: Was that a hardtop convertible? Flat was about all I needed that night!
Tommy
@Mustang Bobby: Good for you. Hope you find peace and maybe a hobby in your retirement :).
Botsplainer
Had a grotesque discussion with my mother yesterday after my wife got done with her colonoscopy. Near as I can summarize, she said I should get one, too. I explained that because Mrs Botsplainer has had more than a few procedures this year that she met the individual excessively high deductible on our shitty “to be replaced on the Kentucky exchange” policy, and that this was the only procedure it ever actually paid for after 10 years of premiums, but that I’d have to pay the entirety of my own procedure. As I put it, I can do a shitload more with $3,500 than apply it to some currently unnecessary exploratory procedure when I’m having no current issues.
That segued into a discussion on coverage on the oldest daughter, and completely derailed into diatribes on how it’s ridiculous that we’re not forcing people to work harder, that there are too many freeloaders (trans:blahs), that my dad once worked three jobs for a month for Christmas money so others could do it for years.
I pointed out that super competent, academically successful youngest daughter was uninsurable due to underwriting on the individual market from the age of 15 due to atypical cells found on a biopsy of a birthmark, and wouldn’t have been able to pursue her career dreams in Archaeology due to insurance concerns; I got treated to diatribes about her tax money and freeloaders.
I pointed out executive compensation, she talked about how wise, diligent and comment they are, and how they needed that pay for motivation. When I segued to compensation down the line, those folks need to just work harder.
She always was a sucker for a white guy in a fancy suit. She’d hand them money for nothing and blame a black person for it being gone.
What I didn’t mention was my mother’s mother, a woman who never hit a lick, and who slurped up procedure after procedure (including a hip replacement 5 years ago which was a complete fucking waste of resources on someone so hateful, lazy and useless. She’s 97 because she’s never actually exerted herself. I think 45 years of daily stop ins to “take care of mother” (she decided in her mid 50s that she wanted to be old while demanding help around the house) warped her brain.
Dad is far more normal.
Tommy
@Mustang Bobby: How about a happy story.
This is my mom on her first date with my dad.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/webranding/8114170277/
Dad found that Thunderbird in TX where he proposed to mom. Bought it and brought it home.
raven
“You have to have a president who bends over backwards and fights”.
OzarkHillbilly
@Botsplainer: No offense but how normal can he be? He’s married to your mother, after all.
(people say the same about my wife)
Kay
Americans may not be so eager to go to war as we were told they were last week (based on that one poll that they hyped endlessly).
Is is amazing how ably certain people work the refs. They were ready to invade…wherever based on that one poll. We were demanding action! Or, maybe not.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Botsplainer: I don’t think you probably want to restart this discussion, but an interesting question would be: If people work harder should their compensation increase? Otherwise what is the motivation for working harder?
Baud
@Kay:
Was that poll taken after Obama’s speech? I was curious to see how many people would obey Cleek’s law on this.
Tommy
@Kay: Kay I have not served. I am the only male in my family that has not served in the military. I actually feel small I have not served when everybody in my family has. But with that said I feel like I have a pretty good pulse on the military. We are tired. My cousin who has been in Qatar for years flying planes will tell you he didn’t think he signed up for this.
Botsplainer
@OzarkHillbilly:
Dad is goofy, but not particularly racist or anti-worker. He was a career gym teacher, track and cross country coach (high school and college level), and had spent enough time at racetracks to get a horse trainers license. Plus, he’s full Lebanese, his dad a compulsive sports gambler, one brother a sports journalist of some prominence and another brother a basketball coach and college scout. From that background, as you’d expect, Dad’s news is ESPN and his talk radio is Sports Talk.
Mom, on the other hand, is marinating her brain in a toxic stew of Nancy Grace, Fox News and Dr Phil. In ’68, when everybody else her age (she was 24 at the time) was protesting the war, she was taking her cues from my grandparents and enthusiastically supporting the candidacy of George Wallace due to his racial views.
Botsplainer
Adding: dad’s background is team and achievement oriented. Not a lot of room for racism there.
Mustang Bobby
@raven: It was a ragtop, but the top went into the trunk. Ford was using up the mechanical leftovers from the ’57-’59 Skyliners. It was supremely cool.
Mustang Bobby
@Tommy: I love that smile. It says so much.
Raven
@Mustang Bobby: sweet
Baud
@Botsplainer:
Unless you team is the KKK, I suppose.
OzarkHillbilly
@Botsplainer:
Funny, they say the same thing about my wife. ;-)
On the more serious side, sorry you have to put up with that sh!t. As they say tho, she’s the only mother you have.
Schlemazel [was Schlemizel till NotMax taught me proper yiddish!]
@Botsplainer:
UGH, that suck so hard. I have a brother-in-law I love like a dad (I was a change of life baby so he is 15 years older than me) and in fact acted as my dad for a couple of years. He was always a bit of a libertarian guy but after he retired he went full wingtard. It is painful as hell to talk to this guy that I really regard as someone special and have to hear the unmitigated shit that falls out of his mouth. I feel for ya guy. Hope you can come to terms with it.
Botsplainer
@OzarkHillbilly:
I told her long ago – she doesn’t get the same deal her mother got. I’m not taking care of two houses. Plus, she’s not moving in with us (I’m an only child).
Frankly, her only normality is my dad’s influence. When he’s gone, she won’t have a set of brakes on her worst instincts.
Debbie(aussie)
@BillinGlendaleCA:
You are most welcome :)
El Caganer
But civility is so important! Why can’t those nasty teachers be nice to Campbell Brown?
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/campbell-brown-is-getting-the-same-treatment-michelle-rhee-got
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone :)
Roger Moore
@Kay:
This shows you the drawbacks of dealing with people who don’t negotiate in good faith.
raven
The VA approved me for a hearing aid for my left ear!
PurpleGirl
@raven: Congratulations.
The Thin Black Duke
@raven: Good. Congratulations.
rikyrah
About the Adrian Peterson situation…
I grew up in a household where corporal punishment was used. I never received an ass whoopin’ that I didn’t deserve. I didn’t grow up in a household where my parents would hit me just because it was Tuesday. I always could see the cause of my behavior that wound up with getting me a whoopin’.
My father was the disciplinarian in our family, but he was definitely of the mind ‘ This hurts me more than it hurts you’, school, though, as a kid, you don’t believe it.
The exception with my mother was if she thought you were trying to play with her about your education. Mama didn’t play when it came to education. Raised by a mother who had her Master’s degree by the time she got married in 1905. My mother and her sisters all has their Master’s before Brown v. Board. In Mama’s world, if you weren’t educated, that meant you were washing White Women’s toilets, because that was the world in which she grew up in the Police State known as Jim Crow Mississippi. That was the world choice for Black women, and she was gonna be damned if her daughters would clean anyone’s toilers other than their own. Play with Mama at your peril….she’d beat your ass in a heartbeat if you thought you would clown in school. Mama was the mother, who, upon getting the call from the school that you were acting out, would leave the job, drive to your school, go to the classroom, ask the teacher in front of your class what you did, confront you about your foolishness, and then whoop your behind IN FRONT of your entire class.
bryan
@rikyrah: I hear everything you are saying and respect where you are coming from – my parents weren’t like that, but I was often looked after by my grandmother who was a strict disciplinarian, though not quite at that level.
But, I have a 4 1/2 year old daughter. While I would say that she knows better than to act the way she does sometimes, I can’t imagine that she would ever understand that she did something to deserve getting literally whipped like that. It just doesn’t seem to me like there can be any justification for Adrian Peterson situation other than he is simply copying what was done to him without any real self-reflection.
El Caganer
@rikyrah: I can understand that (and even got a few tastes of it), although I don’t agree with it as a method of discipline. What I don’t understand and would never, ever condone is beating a 4-year-old bloody.
bemused
@BillinGlendaleCA:
That’s a great point.@Botsplainer:
Rightwingers believe fervently that the majority of people getting any assistance are lazy and not interested in working and you can’t convince them otherwise no matter what the reality is, studies be damned. I think the percentage of people who actively avoid having to work at any job is small and spread across all income levels. It all comes down to their resentment that their taxpayer $ goes to anything that doesn’t personally affect them or even if it does. Bitter, raging people.
bryan
@bryan: The edit window failed me, but I should add – yes, everything that I wrote may be colored by my white middle-class privilege. But that didn’t keep some of my childhood friends from getting whooped repeatedly by angry parents, and I never saw any result other than parents instilling abject fear in their children.
And speaking of privilege, Peterson’s success could have allowed him to mellow a bit and provide his kids with opportunities that he never had. Sadly, it doesn’t seem like it did.
khead
FB feed: Dems are immoral, America-hating, socialists. Usually daily.
Me (once): Sorry, but you’re an idiot if you really think that.
FB feed: (Gets vapors and passes out over my use of the word “idiot”)
Some people even gave me a nice little lecture about how they didn’t like being called an idiot.
NorthLeft12
I gave up being a regular and active commenter and contributor to the Detroit Lions SB site [yes I am a Lions fan] due to the lack of intelligent discussion.
I never had a problem with the lack of civility [these are football fans FFS] but the inability to carry on a back and forth debate and respond to easily available facts or to actually refer to those same facts to buttress an argument just pushed me over the edge.
My wife would look over my shoulder and chide me for some of my sarcasm or insults, but after I had her read through the preceding comments she would just shake her head and ask why I wasted my time.
After thinking about it, I agreed with her.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
Sitting in the waiting room to check in for my colonoscopy. Frickin’ STARVING!
Kylroy
@NorthLeft12: Mandatory cheap shot: if you’re rooting for the Lions, referring to facts will not make your life better.
JoyfulA
@Botsplainer: Hip replacement at 92? That’s a dangerous idea, with more likely bad results than good ones.
My step-father-in-law in great health had a knee replacement at 91 to improve his dancing and died after a few months of pneumonia. (Which was OK with us: he was a vivid RWNJ we couldn’t bear to be near, and she inherited his $36,000/year pension after 2 years of marriage. She has a new boyfriend now, at 86, but says they have a “committed relationship” and aren’t going to have another big wedding.)
Bob In Portland
Anyone remember PROMIS?
Bob In Portland
Also, the coup fascists in Kiev are moving farther away from democracy.
The Pale Scot
@NorthLeft12: Dude, slide on over the the Gmen site, we have a grasp of irony and sarcasm! We even converse with cowboy fans, eagle fans, not so much.
Lurking Canadian
I wish Krugman and I were drinking buddies, so I could ask him which he cherishes more. That meme, or the Nobel.
The Tragically Flip
@Lurking Canadian: It still makes me laugh every time I see it.
The Tragically Flip
This HTML Mencken post on “civility versus decency” is forever on the liberal blog reader required reading list.
BonCH
[I]s [t]his [r]eally [n]ecessary?
Jeff Harrison
http://classbias.blogspot.com/2008/04/replay-in-praise-if-uncivility.html