.
I have one of those generic Scottish names (although my grandparents’ roots were embedded in the thin soil of Connemara — we’ve been out of the clan succession since at least Cromwell). So of course I also have a potmetal clan badge and a length of tartan somewhere, both inherited from my Manhattan- born father, who usually didn’t fall for Ye Olde Heritage twee. But I haven’t felt called upon to discuss the Independence vote here, since far more politically astute observers haven’t been able to predict today’s vote any more accurately than “could go either way“:
… The question on the ballot paper is simplicity itself: “Should Scotland be an independent country?” Yet it has divided Scots during months of campaigning — and in 15 hours on Thursday they decide on the fate of a 307-year old union with England.
More than 2,600 polling places opened Thursday at 7 a.m. (0600GMT, 2 a.m. EDT) and will close at 10 p.m. (2100GMT, 5 p.m. EDT). Turnout is expected to be high, with more than 4.2 million people registered to vote — 97 percent of those eligible.
Polls suggest the result is too close to call, with the pro-independence Yes side gaining momentum in the final weeks of the campaign…
Once the polls close, ballot boxes will be transported to 32 regional centers for counting of the votes. The result is anticipated Friday morning.
Roberts said he was looking forward to watching the results in a pub, many of which are staying open overnight….
What could possibly go wrong, after an all-night drinking session?
Slate found a journalist “based in London & Cairo” ready to cheer for the Yes voters:
… A bit further down the hill, a massive throng of yes voters had gathered to sing songs and make each other laugh. Three teenage girls, just old enough to go to the polls on Thursday (the eligible voting age is 16), had set up microphones and guitars and were providing the entertainment. “I don’t see a reason to vote no,” said Margaux Durand-Watson. “People say independence is a risk, but why?” added her friend, Vendela Gebbie. “We’re a rich country, but most of the kids in my class are on free school meals, and that’s not right. I don’t trust the politicians, and I don’t trust adults who tell us we’re too young to be involved. We look things up. We research the issues for ourselves. We’re used to the way things are now but no one has told us why the way things are now make sense.”…
Makes one a bit nostalgic for that hope & change enthusiasm, aye? At least we can be moderately certain that John McCain and Lindsey Graham (good Scottish names, those) won’t demand “we” start bombing the Highlands, no matter which way the vote swings.
Apart from that, what’s on the agenda for the day?
raven
The timer went off while I was walking the dogs!!
Chris
I don’t know much about Scotland/UK. I admit, my first reflex is to agree with “no,” because is it really worth the hassle? But I can certainly sympathize with Scottish complaints, because it sounds like they’re doing exactly what New York or California would be if they finally got fed up with subsidizing red state assholes for years on end while they continue to wreck the nation.
Eh. Good luck to thrm, whatever they choose.
satby
I have a couple of friends in Scotland, 40 somethings, who are in the YES camp. I’m of Irish descent, so I can understand the desire for independence, but it doesn’t seem like they’ll actually get much from it.
Chris
You know the question that’s really been bugging me? If Scotland breaks off from the UK, then which of them does James Bond work for?
Anne Laurie
@Chris: Which James Bond? Sean Connery’s one of the earliest & loudest voices for Independence. Daniel Craig, on the other hand, is British.
Robert Sneddon
Going out to vote in a few minutes after I’ve had my breakfast.
The public polls about the referendum haven’t actually changed that much over the past few weeks other than “don’t knows” coming off the fence but the media has to make it a horse-race hence the “too close to call” banner headlines. See also Obama/Romney in 2012 which ended up with four percentage points difference in the end. There’s no “dead boy or live girl” situation in a referendum like this that could cause a giant swing overnight in voting intentions so I expect it will be close but no cigar.
eric nny
@raven: I was gettimg nervous. The morning’s ruined probably…
OzarkHillbilly
People will vote either their hopes or their fears.
Mustang Bobby
I wonder why only the people of Scotland get to vote on the independence question. Since a Yes vote would have an impact on the entire UK, why doesn’t everyone in the UK get to vote on the matter?
(Said as someone with Welsh ancestry.)
Baud
Huh?
ETA: Is she criticizing income inequality or government free lunch programs?
Chris
@Anne Laurie:
In universe. Bond wasn’t written as a Scot originally, but Fleming liked Connery’s performance so much he made it official in one of his later books. It’s not usually a big deal, but it came up prominently in Skyfall.
/hugenerdmoment
Anne Laurie
@Baud:
RTA. She’s complaining, or passing along the complaints she’s heard, that Scotland’s oil wealth is going to David Cameron’s Bullingdon fellows rather than providing jobs in Scotland.
raven
It all makes me think of Trainspotting.
YAFB
@Mustang Bobby:
Cameron was responsible for very begrudgingly setting the terms of the referendum (including vetoing the presence of a third option, Devolution Max, on the ballot that would have easily won by miles – bet he regrets that today; he did all he could to obstruct the referendum till it was found that the measures he proposed were illegal), so he’s the one to ask about that.
@Robert Sneddon:
Happy voting, Robert.
Whatever the result, the aftermath won’t be pretty for some of the pols, particularly those in the No camp who took time off from proclaiming that the UK Tories are dismantling the NHS etc. to stand side by side with them during the campaign and proclaim that it and other treasured institutions are safer in UK government hands.
Baud
@Anne Laurie:
Thanks.
The one on Slate? I vote “no.”
raven
qwerty42
@satby: … I’m of Irish descent, so I can understand the desire for independence, but it doesn’t seem like they’ll actually get much from it.
Yeah, me too. On both sides, one from Antrim. I looked at the papers for both Dublin and Belfast and the Belfast papers seemed somewhat upset, and thanks to Sullivan, there is this:
http://www.clickhole.com/article/should-us-deploy-troops-scotland-1016?utm_campaign=default&utm_medium=ShareTools&utm_source=facebook
Barney
Does this mean ‘Anne Laurie’ is your real name? I always assumed it was a pseudonym, after the song.
Betty Cracker
Connemara, no shit? Me too, on my dad’s side.
Anne Laurie
@Barney: I was named after the blasted song. (That’s why I inherited the clan badge & plaid!)
Baud
OT. AP:
Elmo
My grandfather was IRA, and fled to this country after the Easter Rising of 1916. Fuck the Sassenach.
Then again, I’m an American, and the Brits have been our staunchest ally for a hundred years.
Also too, most of the British shock troops like the Black and Tans were Glasgow thugs. So fuck the Scots, Proddy bastards that they are.
Hm. It all seems to cancel out. I’m back to not caring.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: They should know.
Schlemazel [was Schlemizel till NotMax taught me proper yiddish!]
Ah, I am part Scot by ancestry although the earliest relatives on that branch arrived from Ireland in the late 1700’s. I have assumed that means they got there as part of the Cromwell invasion, either as soldiers or settlers. So apologies to your Mick ancestors from my jockie ones if thats the case.
OTOH, maybe things didn’t work out or they got tired of haggis & tried boiled cabbage till they tired of that. I’d love to know how I came to be an American but thats lost in time.
OzarkHillbilly
OT but good news: Occupy activists abolish $3.85m in Corinthian Colleges students’ loan debt
The portfolio was valued at – to be exact – $3,856,866.11 in student debt.
In the vast scheme of things, $3.8m is barely a drop in the bucket as the student debt owed by Americans has now surpassed $1tn.
The gesture, however, is meant to be symbolic as it proves that debt can be conquered – and at a discount. Rolling Jubilee bought the $3.8m worth of student loans for a total of $106,709.48 in cash. That’s about 3¢ for $1 of student debt.
Iowa Old Lady
@Baud: That seems….obvious? It’s hard for a dominant group to understand and portray a non-dominant one accurately, even with the best will in the world.
NonyNony
@Mustang Bobby:
Because the UK Parliament agreed to it. As to why they agreed to it – probably because the Scottish parliament was going to do it anyway and if they held an election and the majority said they wanted to leave the UK that would have been a mess. And I suspect that Cameron finally realized that the more he obstructed the process the more he made the UK unpopular in the eyes of the Scots and the more sympathy the separatist factions received.
Scotland and England came together as equal partners (at least on paper) to voluntarily create the UK back in the 1700s. It was created by a treaty between two sovereign nations and agreed to by both Parliaments. So you can see the argument that the separatists have that if the UK has been far more beneficial to England than to Scotland, maybe Scotland should go its own way.
Of course Texas became a state in the US in the same kind of way, and it’s the justification that the Texas separatists use to say that they should be allowed to vote for their own independence. So it isn’t like that kind of argument isn’t problematic. Though really – if Texas wanted to have a ballot initiative to see whether or not they wanted to stay in the country I think I’d be kind of cool with that. I suspect it would lose big and maybe Texas pols wouldn’t feel like they have to pander to those nutjobs so much.
Betty Cracker
@Elmo:
And with that, you’ve captured the exceptional exceptionality of America.
Tokyokie
My experience is that the further north one goes on the island of Britain, the better I liked the people. I worked in the North Sea oil fields when I was a lad back in the 1970s, and after seeing how shabbily the folks in southern England treated their northernmost brethern (for instance, London merchants would routinely refuse payment in Bank of Scotland notes), all the while exploiting Scottish oil reserves, I thought Scotland should have told England to bugger off decades ago.
OzarkHillbilly
Heh, from the above:
“Sallie Mae is just the Bogeyman that is haunting so many people of our generation,” says Gokey.
After multiple attempts to reach someone at Sallie Mae, Gokey says he was finally put through to Douglas St Peters, currently the vice president of portfolio management at Sallie Mae spinoff Navient.
Prior to April of 2014, Navient was a loan management, servicing and asset recovery business within Sallie Mae.
The campaign claims that St Peters confirmed that Sallie Mae sells its private loans to two large debt buying companies for as little as 15 cents on the dollar. According to Gokey, as soon as St Peters found out who he was speaking with, he shut down and declined their offer to purchase any of Navient’s portfolios.
“It was like talking to a politician caught in a sex scandal. No matter what I said he, like a robot, was just repeating: ‘I am not going to answer this question or any other questions’,” says Gokey.
“The only reason that they wouldn’t sell it to us is because we aren’t going to collect it. We are the anti-Navient. We are the anti-Sallie Mae.”
OzarkHillbilly
@NonyNony: Then again, we might get lucky and Texas really will vote to secede.
Schlemazel
@NonyNony:
And if the Texas referendum succeeded the nation would be better off so it would be a win-win!
EDIT: @OzarkHillbilly:
JINX!
OzarkHillbilly
@Schlemazel: great minds and all that.
Bobby Thomson
@Anne Laurie: I thought all that oil money went to investors in London and elsewhere, anyway. Don’t see how independence changes that unless Scotland nationalizes the oil companies, at which time McCain and Graham might actually call for bombing.
Tokyokie
@Bobby Thomson: The production taxes at least would go to Scotland rather thant the national government, in much the same way as Alaska benefits from oil production.
Robert Sneddon
@Chris: Canonically James Bond’s mother was Swiss as I recall.
Bobby Thomson
@Schlemazel: Depends on whether they got to keep any nukes. I wouldn’t want a bellicose, nuclear-armed country on our southern border. If they just keep conventional weaponry, you’d probably see a repeat of the War of 1812, only with U.S. troops burning the governor’s mansion in Austin.
Sherparick
I wish the Scots luck no matter how they vote. The Union was based on Protestantism and Proud Imperialism. A new Unionist ideology based on the common heritage of fighting the great tyrannies of the last 200 years (Napoleon, Imperial Germany, Hitler, Soviet Union) and creating a democratic socialist commonwealth in which all shared in the wealth of the realm was of course impossible given the Neo-liberal control of both Tory, Labor, and Liberal Democrat Parties (all of whom find the U.K.’s social democratic institutions an embarrassment when sitting in the salons of the Masters of the Universe in London and Davos). With Britain saying farewell to Empire in the 1950s and, as the song goes, “losing my religion” over the last three generations those strong common cords of sentiment have disintegrated. And it is common sentiments that unite us humans in tribes. As a somewhat disillusioned Irish American nationalist, who has discovered that Eirie (Irish Republic) is now essentially a colony of the Bundesbank and American Multinationals, I don’t expect the “Yes” to end well, but at the same time I can understand not wanting to live under an alien Tory Government from London full of Randian poofs. Of course Salmond and SNP have run a pretty dishonest campaign (leaving the U.K. means leaving the EU, no matter what Salmond says. Both Spain and Italy are likely to blackball Scotland from getting in as they want to chill Catalonia, Navarre, and Lombardy from their separatist tendencies. Sending Scotland into an economic crisis would help deliver the message). And as Krugman and other honest economists note, promising to stay in a Monetary union with the U.K. while undergoing a Fiscal separation is just begging for catastrophe (in this case, Greece, Greece, or rather Ireland, Ireland, is the likely outcome). But in the end, it is not my business and good luck to them (I expect they will need it) no matter how the vote turns out.
artem1s
Aren’t there quite a lot of BP rigs in Scottish waters? I imagine they treat Scotland’s waters with exactly the same respect that they treat the gulf. So if independence means the Scottish people have more of a say on what happens to their natural resources (rather than London bankers) then I hope they go for it.
bemused
The FDA is recommending more study on low-t meds. Seriously, just now? Every time I see one of those tv ads, I wonder how many men actually “need” them or pay attention to the possible side effects, blood clots, stroke, etc. particularly when there is little evidence the meds reverse low libido or muscle mass.
Prescriptions have increased more than 58% since 2010, 4.8 million last year. Wow. Sounds like a lot of overprescribing to me.
I really cringed at the topical underarm gel tv ads. Don’t have bare underarm skin contact with women nursing or of child bearing age or children. Yikes. Maybe I’m paranoid but is wearing a shirt, never going bare-chested, when hugging your kids or making love to your partner a guarantee they would not be exposed to any of the gel?
Baud
@Iowa Old Lady:
It’ll never be perfect, but it’s not hard for me to imagine that our current media doesn’t put best efforts into trying to understand.
Schlemazel
@Bobby Thomson:
Those belong to the US (I am not sure that we keep any there anyway) along with all of the military equipment parked there. The withdrawal of all that DoD money should make even more of a wasteland out of many parts of that ‘nation’.
Sherparick
I just saw this at Atrios. http://www.eschatonblog.com/2014/09/humans-are-horrible.html and http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2014/September/14-crm-988.html
Although I suspect I will end up in one of the circles my self, I expect this guy will much farther up the nine rings of Dante’s Inferno.
Botsplainer
Had another hideous talk with my mother yesterday regarding my grandmother, the dwindling cash reserve and that fucking crackerbox two bedroom bungalow on a soggy lot in a shitty part of town. Once mom finally got the courage to pull the trigger on putting her in a home, she is having to spend roughly $500 a month keeping it up (taxes and insurance annualized are included). She’s still been going by daily as her habit of 45 years is hard to break, this time the excuse being to feed some feral cat that started nosing around recently.
There’s 55K left. The never worked prototype teabagger old moocher has $1200 a month coming from social security and the Medicare she never worked to contribute to has been lavishly treating her medical conditions for the past 42 years – including a fairly recent hip replacement, although it is the demands of the blacks that is ruining everything, according to her when she was lucid (as well as my mother).
Keep in mind my grandfather retired at 62, contributed a fairly minimal rate to social security, was 80 when he died (so he drew on his SS for 18 years and has been dead for 25 years. The way I count it, shes pulled well in excess of 350K in inflation-adjusted welfare just in direct cash transfers, and probably another 200K in medical services, yet blacks are the problem(!).
Anyway, there’s clearly a monthly shortfall, as the overly nice home for the hateful old shit is running $7500 a month. As I put it to Mom, she’s got to get cracking on clearing out that dump for a quick sale, as she’s got only about 8 months or so left on cash resources.
I then got the groans and self-pity about how nobody really wants to help her take care of “mother” – not her sister, not my dad, not her sisters kids, not me, not my wife or my kids. I finally said what is at the heart of all these conversations for years – nobody likes my grandmother. She was selfish, lazy, nasty and misanthropic. I have no remaining store of goodwill. Loved my grandmother and understood that her attachment to home was really rooted in her relationship with him, but he’s been gone a very long time and it is past time to let go. As I put it, neither me nor my cousins will go to that funeral out of any love for her, but that it would be out of duty to mothers.
I then got the “but she really does love you”, whereupon I called bullshit, and pointed out that she could occasionally say a couple of words that would sound like the good game, but it was never demonstrated by effort or display.
The conversation did conclude by my unprompted statement that I’d be happy to help clear the house, as that action would not be in furtherance of making her happy, and that’s why I refused to help out in years past.
Gah!
Chris
@Robert Sneddon:
Yes. Scottish father, Swiss mother.
Barney
@Anne Laurie:
Ouch – always a bit unfair of parents to foist a well-known name on their offspring when they can’t object. My sympathy.
Schlemazel
@Botsplainer:
Ain’t family grand? Sorry you are having to deal with this, I know it is wearing. Sometimes it is too true – the good die young.
Bobby Thomson
@Schlemazel: Yes, but realistically, they’re going to keep at least some of it, just as a departing spouse in a divorce doesn’t forfeit all assets.
Manyakitty
Heading out to LA for a long weekend (WeHo, actually). Woohoo!
Schlemazel
@Bobby Thomson:
Nope! That is the US Army & if Texas wants an Army they can build their own. Residents of Tejastan currently serving in the US military can apply for citizenship in the US or get the hell out. I assume an orderly withdrawal of US forces from Tejastan would take a year or so & the US would kindly offer a military protection deal in the even of invasion by the Mexican military but thats as far as I’d be willing to go.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone :)
Cervantes
Re today’s vote in Scotland: the set of choices should have been framed differently.
Robert Sneddon
@Bobby Thomson: “I wouldn’t want a bellicose, nuclear-armed country on our southern border.”
Now you know how the Canadians feel.
Robert Sneddon
@Tokyokie: Bank of Scotland notes, like Clydesdale and Royal Bank banknotes are not legal tender as such in Britain. The Bank of England will not accept them as such (officially) and the further south you go in England away from the border the less common they are so a lot of southern shopkeepers wouldn’t accept them in the same way American stores in Texas would look funny at a Canadian ten-dollar bill.
Any time I travel to England I take along English notes and all the ATMs there dispense BoE notes anyway. My local bank branch in Edinburgh has a separate ATM that specifically dispenses BoE notes for the benefit of tourists.
Tokyokie
@Robert Sneddon: I had some BoS notes from when I was in Aberdeen. I got rid of them by shopping at a store specializing in Scottish goods. This was 40 years ago, mind you, but I had been told that B0S notes were legal tender throughout the U.K.
rikyrah
Vacillations on Discipline Put a Behemoth on Shaky Ground
SEPT. 17, 2014
By
WILLIAM C. RHODEN
…”When the N.F.L. realized it had a serious problem, it hurriedly hired and promoted women to help lead and shape its policies and programs relating to domestic violence and sexual assault, even inventing a position called vice president for social responsibility. But Goodell even got this tokenism wrong. Although the league is largely made up of black players (and families), and the issue has a disproportionate impact on women of color, none of the four women selected to lead the initiative are black.
On Tuesday, a group called the Black Women’s Roundtable sent an open letter to Goodell requesting a meeting and questioning why women of color — and especially black women — had been left out of the leadership group that he had established.
“There are cultural issues that impact how you even address violence against women,” said Melanie L. Campbell, the group’s president. “It’s true that domestic abuse affects many players, but right now the people affected immediately are African-American males. Black women are being impacted, and black children are being impacted.”
She added: “Maybe this wasn’t an oversight. Maybe the N.F.L. didn’t think a diverse group of women was needed to lead this initiative.”
The N.F.L. responded to my inquiry by pointing out that several black staff members would have a role with the group, but it’s worth noting that none were among the four appointed to lead it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/18/sports/football/fluctuations-in-approach-to-discipline-put-nfl-on-shaky-ground.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
Cervantes
@Tokyokie: Not legal tender but often accepted regardless.
Tenar Darell
@Iowa Old Lady: @Baud: Agreed. Seems pretty bad though. Did you guys see the pictures on the a twitter thread,
If They Gunned Me Down? This seems like a no brainer, use the nice picture of the dead kid or adult, but it is such standard difference in portrayals that it takes a tragedy and a massive campaign to even get the paper of record to actually become awake enough to see it. Which explains the poll, graphically. Like Cole’s Urban Outfitters screed, the news needs to hire someone to vet this stuff before they’re dumb enough to publish it, or something.
Mr. Prosser
To quote from The New Adventures of Queen Victoria this morning: “Attention all our beloved subjects in our beloved Scotland. America likes to elect insane presidents. You have oil, no army, no navy and no missiles.Keep that in mind as you vote today.”
Bobby Thomson
@Robert Sneddon: FTW
Rafer Janders
@Anne Laurie:
Sean Connery is also British. Daniel Craig, however, unlike Connery who is Scottish, is English.
(Handy guide, at least up until today): British = the English, the Scottish and the Welsh. The Northern Irish, while part of the United Kingdom, are not British, as it’s the United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Norther Ireland.
Rafer Janders
@Bobby Thomson:
They wouldn’t, as those are the property of the federal government of the United States of America.
Oh, I dunno, Canada seems to manage fine in the same situation….
Robert Sneddon
@Tokyokie: Not legal tender as such but all Scottish shops will go along with the joke. The Scottish notes are issued by banks other than the Bank of England and can only really be accepted by them, however in reality there are behind-the-scenes agreements by the banks to honour other banknotes and accept them at face value. A branch of, say, the Royal Bank of Scotland will usually only issue their own banknotes to customers unless other notes such as BoE currency are specifically requested.
I’ve worked IT support in a cash centre for a Scottish bank where one of the jobs was to sort the collected notes into “own bank”, “other bank”, “other other bank” and Bank of England and crate them up for dispatch to their owners. If you think of currency notes as IOUs issued by the financial institutions it makes a bit more sense (“I promise to pay the bearer on demand…”).
Robert Sneddon
@Rafer Janders: Assuming the vote is for “Yes” (the polls suggest otherwise) the terms of independence will still have to be negotiated and the separation wouldn’t happen until some time in 2015 at the earliest so it will still be UKoGBaNI for a while yet.
burnspbesq
I have a kid in school in London, so anything that tilts the sterling-dollar exchange rate in a favorable direction is just fine by me. As an American of Irish ancestry, I’m in favor of all Celts removing the English boot from their necks.
burnspbesq
@Sherparick:
You might want to chat with some actual Irish people before you’re so quick to say that’s a bad thing. Ireland was a third world-country before it became the back door into the EU and the tax haven of choice for American manufacturers. It’s not a third-world country any more.
SectionH
@Robert Sneddon: I think it was the prospect of the referendum that made it harder than usual for us to dispose of the BoS notes (just a couple of £10 ones) post-convention. We were just buying US$ at a currency exchange this time. Weren’t very amused that they wouldn’t deal with the Scottish notes.
The man at the currency exchange much more “tsk tsk-y” about the expired GB £10 note we also had than the Scottish ones. What truly hadn’t penetrated our heads was the concept that English notes expire, and after not too many years, because that’s not the case with US$. If the US issued it, ever, it’s legal tender. Period. (Of course, you’d be silly to exchange really old notes at face value unless you made sure they weren’t worth a lot more as collectors’ items.)
I wasn’t too happy that someone at the convention had passed old currency until I realised it was probably a fellow American who’d been keeping the money since the last time they were in English in, oh say… 1987. ;->
Robert Sneddon
@SectionH: The Bank of England will trade old expired BoE notes for fresh ones. It’s part of the “I promise to pay the bearer on demand…” deal but alas the Bank of England has no actual customer branches. They do have an ATM network though in various offices for the use of their employees.
Currency exchanges outside Scotland usually won’t deal with Scottish notes. For one thing determining if the notes are forgeries is trickier for someone not used to handling them. Similarly I’ve seen Irish Linen Bank banknotes turn up in shop tills and refused them in change for about the same reason English shopkeepers are antsy about handling Scottish notes.
If you want to mail me your useless Scottish notes I’m sure we can come to some sort of a deal. I’ve got some Dutch guilders if you can use them…
Violet
@Robert Sneddon: I haven’t had too much trouble getting Scottish notes from an ATM in Scotland and using them in northern England.
Cacti
I hope the good people of Scotland remember the second verse of God Save the King when casting their ballots:
“Lord grant that Marshall Wade, may by thy mighty aid, Victory bring.”
“May he sedition hush, and like a torrent rush, rebellious Scots to crush, God save the King!”
Robert Sneddon
@Violet: Northern England, English mainline railway stations and the service stations along the motorway network are all familiar with Scottish notes and will deal in them, in the same way US cities like Buffalo near the Canadian border have stores that will accept Canadian currency and, I presume, vice versa. My own home town, Edinburgh is Euro-friendly in many city centre shops and pubs especially during the Bloodyfestivalbloodybloody (indeed I occasionally find euro coins lying in the street here) but the piecemeal exchange rate isn’t usually that good.
Robert Sneddon
@Cacti: The General Wade verse is about verse six of the national anthem and by the time, if ever we get to verse three most folks are singing “Tum tum te tum tum tum” sotto voce anyway. Besides Wade was only crushing the baby-eating sheep-shaggers in the Highlands and what right-thinking person would be against that?
Origuy
I had some trouble using Scottish notes at Heathrow; I can imagine trying to spend them in a shop in Kent or Cornwall. Northern Englanders see them often enough, though.
An interesting question for is What becomes of Northern Ireland? Right now the options are: stay with England or join the Republic. Could it join an independent Scotland, with which it would have strong ties? Right now the extremists are subdued, but the Troubles could start up again.
SectionH
@Robert Sneddon: Thanks, but no thanks. We swapped the lot at the Post Office in Borough High Street.
I do have 50,000 Dinars I could trade you some of for the Guilders, though.
Origuy
The Guardian has a video explaining the vote for non-Brits. Very well done.
Cervantes
@Origuy:
Will not happen.
NCSteve
I cannot for the life of me imagine why it is you think McCain and Graham won’t call for a bombing campaign in Scotland to Keep Us Safe(TM) regardless of which way the vote goes. You think the “Mc” is going to make a difference?
StringOnAStick
@Botsplainer: Wow, that sounds like a nice family mess you’ve got there, and it looks like exactly the same one I’m trying to avoid getting sucked into with my winger parents. It is hard dealing with belligerent senile people, especially when they weren’t that nice to be involved with when they weren’t senile. You have my sympathies.
Bokonon
@Cacti: Rebellious Scots to crush?
Yeah … namely, my highland Scots ancestors. After the rebellion failed in the 1740’s, they went to the scaffold or were sold into indentured servitude (and sent to the American colonies). Which is why I am here today.
That said, I don’t favor a “yes” vote on Scottish independence. It seems emotional and poorly thought out – sort of like yelling “AARGH! and rushing the banked artillery at Culloden uphill, through a bog, armed with swords, pikes and cudgels. Lots of spirit, but no plan at all.
The very fact that Alex Salmond and the Scottish National Party have resorted to disingenuous arguments makes my BS meter go through the roof. If this is such a great idea, why do you have to lie about what the consequences?
Kylroy
I’m going to reiterate my father’s reaction to the Quebec secession votes in years past:
Why is a decision to form a new nation being put to a single vote requiring only a simple majority?
The Pale Scot
@Tokyokie:
The Ninth Doctor – Lots of planets have a North
Robert Sneddon
@Kylroy: Because the other way involves a lot of bloodshed and burning buildings?
Robert Sneddon
@Bokonon: The ’45 was the second Catholic rebellion to come out of the Highlands in thirty years and this one got as far south as Derby before factionalism turned everything to mush. After Culloden the English parliament wasn’t going to give the baby-eaters a third swing at pillaging the civilised south so they sent Marshal Wade up north to build roads through the glens and that destroyed the clans because roads meant artillery and ignorant savages like the Highlanders couldn’t succeed against the Queen of Battles no matter what colour they painted their faces and they didn’t have the facilities or money to build their own artillery to fight the English on an equal footing.
The really smart move was to co-opt the Highlanders and send them abroad to colonise the nascent empire and to police it with the fighting men whose clan structure was in ruins at home.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Robert Sneddon: Infantry is the Queen of Battle. Artillery is the King.
cosima
Today as I drove home from work & passed a polling station with police outside to keep the peace it made tears come to my eyes. Much of the reasons that we moved back to Scotland were to do with the politics of the US and the gun violence. Fortunately guns are illegal here for the most part, so that’s not on the table for most responses to the voting outcome, but the divisive bitter political discourse is back on the menu, boys! It’s been incredibly sad to see this. To drive by hateful signs, worthy of Texas & Alaska politics, on the drive to/from my daughter’s sweet little village school in the “Royal Deeside.”
Salmond (disgusting snake-oil salesman rat-fu$%^$) is going to be slave to the oil companies if Scotland votes Yes. Told my friends leaning toward yes that they’ll no longer have to worry about fighting against wind turbines — they’ll be fighting against fracking in their little utopia. The only way that Scotland will be able to survive financially will be to make it open-season for oil companies, and even then all services will be reduced. Production is going down. We’re oil industry, so we have a wee bit of knowledge about that. Rural Scots cost approx. L1600 more than the average Brit in government services. There are rural children who are ferried to secondary schools and stay as boarders for the week, then ferried back home for the weekend. Not many children in England doing that, or Wales, or Ireland. The road system here is vast & hard to keep up with the crazy weather. Emergency services to hard-to-reach areas of Scotland. The list goes on & on.
I’m from Alaska, and I see so much of the Alaskan arguments made about independence in this — and I think that we all know where they are on the list of government dollars received vs. taxes paid.
It’s been incredibly sad & depressing & disheartening. I could go on & on. I’ve determined not to read any UK news about the voting until tomorrow when there’s a chance that all votes are counted and it’s been done & dusted. Where votes are being counted in the small village of Alford (you can look it up) they have hired extra police to guard the building, and all emergency response staff (police/ambulance/etc) have been told that they’re either working or considered on-call.
Cervantes
@Robert Sneddon:
We’ll never know but I do wonder — what would be different if Donald Dewar and John Smith were still alive?
Dog On Porch
@Schlemazel [was Schlemizel till NotMax taught me proper yiddish!]: It was known in my family that a great-great uncle had fought in the Civil War in an Ohio regiment. It occurred to me to write Ohio in hopes of finding his record. Not only did they find it (he fought in George Thomas’s first engagement, and later with Sherman), through county historical records they tracked the family history even further back (turned out that branch landed from Dublin in 1824 and headed west, and I shall always thank God they kept going till they hit the Pacific). Anyway, it’s just something you might consider exploring if you know the whereabouts of an ancestor. The county records of the time (in Ohio, anyway) are incredibly informative.
I find it hard to believe Scotland will cut ties. I mean, where will Elizabeth spend her summers if not Balmoral?
Robert Sneddon
@Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): On a chessboard the Queen is the most powerful piece, able to strike in all directions as far as it can “see”. The King is on foot, slow and weak and when he’s trapped and about to be destroyed it’s all over. The 11B infantryman these days is basically a counter to determine who won or lost a battle. Their main use these days is as a policeman performing occupation duty, keeping the wogs in their place.
The Royal Artillery’s banner, unlike the banners of the British Army’s infantry regiments, doesn’t have a list of battles it fought in. It simply says, “Ubique” meaning “Everywhere”. That pretty much describes its effective range too.
SectionH
@Robert Sneddon: Indeed. My ancestor Alexander Robertson (my grandfather was his namesake, or is it the other way around?) was noted as the only clan chieftain who was “out” in all 3 Jacobite Risings (1688 as well as the ’15 and ’45). He was the only leader not to be executed, afaik, due apparently to his ancient age.
I don’t know much about the intervening generations, but my great-grandfather was one of the soldiers who fought in Queen Victoria’s Little Wars, which seems to be one confirmatory footnote to your last observation.
The psephologists I know or read all seem to think NO will carry the day without much trouble. My head says that’s a good thing, but I admit to a bit of romanticism which would have some regret for a Yes loss.
(edited to make conditional clear)
Robert Sneddon
@Cervantes: There’d be a loud knocking sound coming from a couple of coffins six foot under.
Donald Dewar’s star faded a little during the endless saga of the building of the Holyrood Parliament building when he, being safely dead, got blamed for the 1000% cost overruns and the endless delays in completing its construction. The statue of him in Buchanan Street in Glasgow used to be at ground level as befitting a man of the people. It’s now on a plinth because folks were abusing it somewhat. Saying that plinths don’t stop Glaswegians for long especially if they’ve been at the strong drink as, it is rumoured, a few indulge in of a Saturday night.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellington_Statue,_Glasgow
John Smith, fit and hearty (he climbed mountains and hillwalked as a hobby) and a staunch traditional Labourite stood in the way of NuLab Tony Blair and world domination and then he had that oh-so-convenient heart attack. They say it took cosmetic surgery and hydraulic jacks to get the smile off Blair’s face when he heard the news.
Cervantes
@Robert Sneddon: I do miss them both.
Robert Sneddon
@Cervantes:
Have you considered going down to the range and sighting in your rifle?
Dewar was always an Labour Party apparatchik and yes-man who knew the top job was never going to be his given the backstabbing clique he was part of so he chose to be the Big Fish in the little pond as Scotland’s first First Minister. As for John Smith, “inoffensive” is the adjective that springs to mind. I occasionally forget the real name of Mister Grey, the Conservative Prime Minister who succeeded Maggie Thatcher (oh yes, John Major) and I suspect John Smith would have been Mister Grey #2 if he had been in charge of Labour in the 1997 election which Mister Grey #1 was never going to win.
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Robert Sneddon: Be that all that as it may, the title “King of Battle” belongs to the artillery. Try a google search. You could have simply summed up of the rest of your comment by quoting JFC Fuller’s maxim: Artillery conquers and infantry occupies.
Paul in KY
I’m a British citizen & if I were Scottish, I would vote Yes.
Cervantes
@Robert Sneddon:
Perhaps, but I do miss them both. Even John Major came as a bit of a relief after Thatcher.
But you’re right — nostalgia is not political science.
(Neither is political science, for the matter of that.)
Robert Sneddon
@Paul in KY: But you wouldn’t have to live here afterwards, assuming “KY” is now your home.
I’ve seen comments by expatriate Scots who took the high road to England, to jobs and prosperity and who think they should somehow have a vote about independence a country that is, perhaps, their homeland but no longer their home. Conversely I know a few English folks who moved to Scotland years ago, live here, are registered to vote here and have like me voted in the referendum. I think the decision about who could vote and who couldn’t was very equitably made and I am particularly pleased they reduced the voting age to 16 for this referendum. I hope it will be noted as a success and perhaps extended to other elections in the future.
Dog On Porch
@cosima: You are the first person I’ve heard explain the consequences of this possible secession in those terms (i.e. power and oil), and your take strikes me as being chock full of where it’s at. If I had a vote, I wouldn’t need to hear anything else, and would vote no.
Chris
@cosima:
I’ve idly considered ditching the U. S. altogether (I could do it, dual citizenship with France) but never seriously, and one of the reasons is that I don’t think it would solve anything. Nothing lasts forever, and a country that looks healthy and fine now could easily become a madhouse after I’ve moved there.
Ten years ago I was first starting to pay serious attention to politics. If you’d told me then that in a few years an economic crisis would happen and that Europe’s leadership would handle it more cruelly and neoliberally than America’s, I would’ve said you were crazy. If you’d told me the Front National would rise to the point that an FN president was no longer inconceivable in France, I would’ve said the same. Countries change and there’s no way to tell which will still be sane in a decade.
Not trying to say you were wrong to move to Scotland. You gotta be somewhere, it might as well be Scotland (besides I don’t know enough to really comment on the politics of it either way). I just don’t think moving solves the problem of toxic politics.
Kylroy
@Robert Sneddon: *sigh* No, I mean why doesn’t this take either a supermajority of some kind or multiple votes spread out over time. We don’t amend the Constitution on a 50%+1 vote, and deciding to secede from a nation is an even bigger decision – deciding on major drastic action based on a slight majority at a single point in time seems like a recipe for disaster.
Cervantes
@Kylroy: Yes, and not only that, I think (as I said above) that the set of choices should have been framed differently, not just either-or.
Robert Sneddon
@Cervantes: There was a third option on the table, more devolution of powers (aka DevoMax) but it was decided to make this referendum a binary choice, in or out of the UK and to set the scale at 50%+1 of voters to decide. A previous independence referendum under Thatcher required a plurality of all registered voters, in effect converting stay-at-homes to No voters automatically and it lost even though more people voted for independence than against on the day.
Westminster and the Scottish parliament agreed to the binary Yes/No question and the ballot paper I marked up today had a simple straightforward choice rather than a rat’s nest of possible choices like a typical kitchen-sink US ballot paper.
In fact the Westminster parties have agreed that in the case of a No vote then Scotland will be offered DevoMax anyway — it’s clear that even if there isn’t an actual majority of voters for full independence there’s a very large number in favour. Classic British fudge, in other words.
Robert Sneddon
@Kylroy: How many signatories to the Declaration of Independence were there? Women, field niggers, chinks, native Americans, Irish, bondsmen and indentured servants didn’t get a vote. A handful of property-owning white men decided that the American colonies were going to declare independence from the United Kingdom. How did that work out for you guys?
Ah yes, lots of bloodshed and burning buildings.
Cervantes
@Robert Sneddon:
Right, so why not legitimize that by making it an option on the ballot?
Robert Sneddon
From the BBC website:
22:35 A YouGov survey of voters previously polled has just been released. It shows support for “No” at 54%. “Yes” at 46%.
From what I recall the sample size was 3,000. Yougov has been sampling regularly over the past couple of years using the ballot question as a basis.
The polls have been closed since 22:00, counting has started in 32 locations, final result expected about 06:00 tomorrow local time. Turnout is high, apparently, maybe as much as 90% in some areas.
Robert Sneddon
@Cervantes: You’d have to ask the High Heid Yins who made the decision why DevoMax wasn’t a ballot choice. A three-way choice would probably have lead to a lot of rancour after the result, a lot of what-ifs and Truing the Vote trying to add DevoMax voters into the pro-full-independence voting pool etc. The binary choice is free from that, the totals unambiguous. Scots are famous for our national anthem, “We wuz robbed!”, no need to give us the chance to sing another verse or two. Of course our other national anthem is “Just wait until next time, you English bastards.”
Politically speaking the Yes/No choice suited Wee Eck (Alec Salmond) since his position as leader of the SNP meant he had to push for full independence, it’s why the SNP exists after all. I think personally he’d have settled for DevoMax originally since it increases the powers of the existing Scottish Parliament which he happens to be First Minister of but he was elected on a mandate of pushing for a referendum in this parliamentary session.
The Westminster party leaders looked at the polls and decided to offer DevoMax in the case of a No vote a couple of weeks ago and that may have been the edge that moved some maybe-Yes voters into the No camp.
Cervantes
@Robert Sneddon:
I agree re the geographic aspect. Re age I don’t disagree but I am curious about your (unstated) reasoning.
Cervantes
@Robert Sneddon:
I might, at that, though I’m not particularly friendly with most of the current lot. Anyhow, thanks for your response. If you review it you might see why I was wondering how Dewar and Smith would have handled things.
Kylroy
@Robert Sneddon: Dude, I *really* don’t see a lot of similarity between 1776 America and 2014 Scotland. If you’d like to make actual comparisons rather than jingoisitic insults, you might want to consider 1995 Quebec. Where I had the same concerns. As I would with a Texas independence vote if it became more than hot air.
I’m suggesting that something on the order of creating a new nation should be done with more than 51% of people in favor of it. What happens if it’s down to 49% in a month, do you put brakes on the secession and go back to being in the UK? What if it goes down to 40% in a year? What would it take to reverse the decision, should at some point a majority not support it in the future? A comparable drive to start another petition, leading to some theoretical 2025 reunification vote?
You don’t have to ask this question with a politician, because they serve a limited term and have to face the voters again. When faced with a decision *far* more important than selecting a leader, and one that is being portrayed as basically irreversible, I’d be real damn nervous if 1% of the population changing their minds meant a nation is being formed that most of its citizens would rather not be a part of.
cosima
@Chris
It was a nice treat to have my husband wake me up this morning with “It’s a no.” and “Alex Salmond is giving his concession speech now.” Music to my ears.
But anyway…… while I realize that moving doesn’t mean escaping politics, there is an enormous gap between bitter political discourse that poisons the well and political differences as usually expressed around here. I spoke to a very sweet (and incredibly learned & intelligent) octogenarian about it yesterday, and she was talking about not ever having seen the levels of intimidation & vitriol around an election, not even in Thatcher days. Mind you, she’s not the type to have been in mining towns or the like back then, but it’s not all mining towns, and when that sort of behavior and discourse is taking place in a tiny village of about 6000 people, a lot of them past retirement, that’s a wholly unwelcome development. While she and I were talking about it we both became choked up and had to stop, decided on being positive & hoping for the best.
I, like you, am utterly gobsmacked over the shift in politics here and in Europe. The rise of Ukip here makes me sick. And the situation in France is pretty desperate. My husband & I no longer work for the same company, so if we were to move for job/money purposes it’s possible we’d move to France, where his company is based. Out of the frying pan, into the fire, in terms of the politics.
Salmond was non-stop nationalist & oil-power talk. Let’s be the new Norway! Down with the English! And offering increased benefits (welfare). There was a man interviewed on the telly who had registered for the first time in his life because he’d heard his benefits would increase. He had never voted in the 40 years that he’d been eligible to vote.
Now we shall see how Scotland manages the powers with which they’ve been vested, courtesy of this little stramash — which was, in some opinions, the entire point of the exercise from the beginning. And we shall see if we can give Salmond the boot, to show the haters that nationalist politics is not on. I can’t vote, but I can do all that I can to ensure that the youngsters of Scotland understand the importance of voting & being a part of the process. When we moved back here & people asked me why, I’d give a short explanation of the importance of voting, GOTV, etc. — and along comes this to underscore my concerns.
So, onward, into the breach, etc.
SectionH
@Kylroy: Well, yes.
And my first response to Robert’s post was, “Um, oh yes, the Act of Union was accomplished with input by How Many of his focus groups?”
Robert Sneddon
@SectionH: That was then, this is now. No burning buildings, no bloodshed just a plurality of voters making a decision about independence or no. I think it’s an improvement, don’t you?
Sure we could have been like America and required a complex gerrymanderable system of supermajorities in both houses of Parliament, local government agreements and Uncle Tom Cobley and all to decide Constitutional issues but, well, we’re not America. A lot of Americans seem to forget that (luckily they do learn to drive on the correct side of the road, mostly when they visit).
Kylroy
@Robert Sneddon: It’s not like King George III would have recognized any sort of vote from the colonies and granted independence. Congratulations, the world of 2014 is better than 1776. I’m so proud of you.
My concerns about this are moot because, here as in Quebec, it went down to narrow defeat. *Is* there any historical precedent of a…*place* voting democratically to secede and form it’s own nation?
Paul in KY
@Robert Sneddon: I’m not Scottish, though. If I had a vote, I would have voted ‘No’ (due to me being English, mother from Warrington).
Cervantes
@Kylroy:
Sure.
One example: The East Timor referendum in 1999.
Another: The South Sudan referendum in 2011.
Another: The Eritrean referendum in 1993.
If you accept parliamentary votes as well as referenda, then there are other examples, including the separation of Malaysia and Singapore in 1965 and the dissolution of Czechoslovakia in 1992.
Not sure how relevant you find these examples.