This will be must see tv:
On the morning of Sept. 13, the four Redskins fans arrived at the Park Hyatt hotel and began taping an interview with Jones in a small conference room. Their interview lasted about three hours, with Jones playing the role of a sarcastic reporter, accusing them of supporting a racist mascot and using props such as dictionaries, which define the Washington team name as a slur.
The fans found Jones mostly funny. “We kept telling him that we felt the name honored Native Americans,” O’Dell said. “And then we just felt like, ‘Are we done yet?’ ”
Meanwhile, the group of Native Americans — which included members of a comedy group called the 1491s — hung out in a separate room, waiting to make its surprise entrance.
“They essentially explained days in advance that the fans are going to be in there, and they’re just going to be essentially justifying the use of the word Redskins and the use of racial imagery, and they’re going to say a lot of things they would most likely not say in front of American Indians — and that we were going to go in there and see if they’d actually say all of that in front of us,” said Bobby Wilson, 29, a 1491 member who was flown to Washington from Phoenix for the segment. “That was definitely something we could get on board with. It didn’t seem strange or unfair on our end, considering that each of us has always been confronting racism on this level.”
As Jones wrapped up his interview with the Redskins fans, he made an unexpected transition, according to O’Dell. “Jason says something like, ‘Well, don’t you think it would be great if you could just have a conversation?’ ” she recalled. “He turns around, and Native American people came in, just glaring at us. ”
Jones pulled out some beer and chicken wings, O’Dell remembered, and sat back and watched. Both the fans and Native Americans said the room first filled with awkward silence, then vitriol.
“I said to them, ‘You sound like an alcoholic, someone who’s in denial and who doesn’t want to believe what they’re doing is not right,’ ” recalled Blackhorse, who said the interaction with fans left her feeling “dehumanized.” “They don’t see anything wrong with it. . . . That’s what the owner [Dan Snyder] is feeding their fans.”
O’Dell said she felt trapped. “I was told that I was ‘psychologically damaging Native American children,’ and every time we tried to say something, we got cut off,” she said.
She said she took off her microphone while they were still filming. As she packed up her belongings, Shroff, one of the producers, approached her.
“I said to him: ‘This is not how adults behave. This is not anything I signed up for.’ Tears were running down my face. I was shaking,” O’Dell said. “I told him to tear up my contract. He said, ‘I don’t know if I can do that.’ ”
O’Dell later went on to file a police complaint, but was laughed at by the cops. There are some price quotes in their about her victimhood.
scav
This should be epic.
good.
also, mea culpa, Mea maxima badpersona, I’m relinking a headline that won’t let me alone. The Guard: Polygamist women dressed ‘like ninjas’ attack home of witness in Utah sex assault case
big ole hound
I just ask myself if I was a native American would I want to be called “redskin”? I guess I’m a “whiteskin”. Hate it.
Corner Stone
Why is what happened here a good thing?
kc
Sorry, that’s just dickish.
Pick on Snyder instead.
shelley
If Irony is not dead, it’s certainly in the ICU.
Or ‘ecru-skin?’ That sounds like a job for a dermatologist.
scav
@big ole hound: My personal favorites are hesitating between the abject and utter fear they had when confronted with actual people (I’m not a bigot and unthinking! I’m only rude behind people’s backs! And using publicly ubiquitous logos! and that seems to have been at least two of the four) and then utterly unselfaware about how getting all rattled about suddenly being the minority (eek! there are more Indians in this room!) looks, let alone how it should spark a clue.
This would be far less illustrative and entertaining if the WADC fans hadn’t gotten into such a first-world call-the-cops, I’m-scared-and-they-made-fun-of-me overdrive. It’s more or less an expanded version of the photo in the parking lot (usefully expanded, it would seem).
Amir Khalid
I have no sympathy whatsoever for the Redskins fans. When the segment airs and they look like racists, it will be because they are racists.
BGinCHI
Profiting from mass murder is so hard!
Comrade Dread
Sounds like the guy who swears he’s not a racist suddenly realizing that a black man has been standing nearby listening to him tell racist jokes.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
No one wanted to listen to me whitesplain why they were all just being silly and too “PC”!
She called the fucking police?
Also, too, do these people have any idea what “The Daily Show” is? Did she maybe make a google about Jason Jones?
Keith G
@Corner Stone: Beats the fuck out of me. I am not sure a debate over an important issue is made better by turning it into a episode of Punked.
A Humble Lurker
@Comrade Dread:
Ooh! Can The Daily Show do something like this with white cops from Ferguson and black people next?
geg6
The police? This dumb broad calls the cops over this? Seriously? Is she under the impression that hurt fee fees and butthurt over being shown to be a racist constitute a criminal offense? WTF? And she was a teacher? WTF?
Bobby Thomson
@Amir Khalid:
This. Name, shame, and mock.
And fuck the pearl clutchers in this thread.
Roger Moore
While I generally don’t approve of the NCAA, this is one thing they’ve gotten absolutely right. They don’t allow generic Native American mascots, and they only allow ones for a specific tribe if the tribe itself agrees. It doesn’t seem like too tough of a concept, but a lot of people have a very hard time getting it.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
@Corner Stone:
Because assholes got their comeuppance. Does that make you feel vulnerable?
Hawes
Remember. White people are always the victim.
Always
Woodrowfan
of course the WashPost article made it seem like the fans were victims..
The Pale Scot
Someone posted a great quote over there in the comments,
The Native American perspective on the mascot issue; this is an excerpt from “Wolf at Twilight” by Kent Nerburn-
Corner Stone
Normal people with no power or authority were lied to and essentially bum rushed.
Somehow that’s a good thing, I guess.
Sounds like something Breitbart would do but I guess since we’re on the same side of the issue it’s ok.
Corner Stone
@GHayduke (formerly lojasmo): Does your sponsor know about the outsized hatred you have for an anonymous commenter on a public blog?
Certainly at some point you’ve told him or her, yes? If not, why not? It can’t be too healthy to keep something you’ve obsessed about from them.
Bobby Thomson
@Corner Stone: Pity the poor white racist, who has no power.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Yes. People agreeing to appear on one of the best known TV shows in the country, with well-known reality bias, are JUST LIKE people doing their jobs and minding their own business when some dopey clown comes in to harass them with a hidden camera.
Who would you like to thank for your Broder Award, Ms Marcus?
Corner Stone
@Bobby Thomson: I don’t think they are victims, I’m just not sure what is gained by punching down.
shelley
@Corner Stone:
I seriously doubt she and the rest went in there for any kind of ‘serious debate.’
I’m also surprised that those Native Americans were able to wait for three hours thru all that.
Corner Stone
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Was it setup under a false pretense? They claim it was. How does that make it ok?
Your comment about Broder something something doesn’t make any sense.
Bobby Thomson
@Corner Stone:
Make up your mind. Are they not victims, or is it punching down? Hint: they aren’t and it isn’t.
Corner Stone
@shelley: Choose to believe them or not, but they claim they would have attended even if the producers had told them Native Americans would be also attending the taping.
Roger Moore
@shelley:
I don’t see why. They’ve been dealing with that kind of crap for their whole lives, so I’d think they’d have developed some ability to sit through it. And they’re activists who are trying to prove a point; they absolutely wanted to let the fans say enough to hang themselves.
Keith G
@Bobby Thomson:
Thanks for the offer, but no.
It is not pearl clutching to note that stunts have a poor record of changing minds. Putting folks on the defensive, no natter how deserving, no matter how entertaining, will not lead to reflection. And that’s the point of this effort: Getting folks to understand the way a common behavior on their part is brutally insulting to others.
I also would hope that this is about more than just one corporate brand, but inclusive of a packet of related issues concerning how the first American societies have been treated.
Over time, minds do change and the greater the effort put into it, the deeper the change can be. In the meantime, just because someone is mock-worthy does not mean that using mockery gets us closer to a desired outcome.
shelley
@Corner Stone:
Saying that after the fact is easy. I somehow doubt they would have, or if they did consent, their comments would have been a bit different.
Corner Stone
@Bobby Thomson: Whatever, dbag. They aren’t victims and yes, it is punching down.
These people make the decisions in the Washington organization? They write the checks? Even if all four of them and their entire family donated their team clothing, burned their game tickets and boycotted all activities and broadcasts, do you think Snyder would change anything?
The POTUS said he would consider changing the name and that had zero effect. IMO, I seriously doubt if the whole city signed a newspaper op-ed that Snyder would pay any attention.
Citizen_X
@Corner Stone:
That’s right! It makes being a Redskins fan seem indefensible.
Wait, I’m having a hard time seeing how that’s a bad thing.
Bob In Portland
Here’s a PDF of “The Nazis Go Underground,” written by Kurt Reiss back in 1944.
It explains how the Nazis intended to survive their military defeat. This was common knowledge in 1944. But, as BJers have attested, these moments in history became somewhat opaque over the years.
Corner Stone
@shelley: Ok.
Corner Stone
@Citizen_X: That’s not what happened though. Do you think these specific individuals have had cause to reflect? Do you think any team fan will see this episode and say, “Hmmm, that’s a damn good point!” ?
Amir Khalid
@Corner Stone:
With a television camera running, these football fans made arguments to a white interviewer in favour of retaining the team’s racist name. They were mortified to learn that actual Native Americans had heard them. So at some level, they must realise that what they were saying was racist.
They were regular folks, sure. But racism is still not OK if you’re regular folks.
WaterGirl
@The Pale Scot: That’s powerful. Thanks for posting it.
Cain
@The Pale Scot:
Do you have the link to that comment?
Phoenix_Rising
@Corner Stone:
They were recruited via Twitter. These morons are twatting their ignorance and bias every Sunday. That is how they were selected for this setup.
If the only result is that dumbasses like them feel vulnerable to public censure in exchange for spewing their drivel…that’s great!
As someone who shall remain nameless likes to say: I can’t be sure that every loudmouth anti-gay bigot is himself gayer than a Disney parade. But I stand to benefit from the widespread promotion of that stereotype, because it shuts those assholes down & creates a more tolerant discourse. Same thing happened here, and all I want to know is, when does it air?
Corner Stone
@Amir Khalid: I’ve said before Snyder should change the name. I can’t believe he hasn’t already.
These people should probably reflect on what it is they are supporting. At this point, it’s pretty clear every fan of the NFL should reflect on what it is they are supporting.
Whether they are racists or not I don’t know the answer to that. Does supporting the WAS team make you de facto a racist? What does that make the players who play for WAS?
It might not make for such good comedy TV, but why not invite them into a room with these professional advocates and get them some schooling up? Oh, yeah. Then it wouldn’t have been worth the time to get it on film.
Roger Moore
@Corner Stone:
Maybe they would, and maybe they wouldn’t, it’s hard to know. But it’s a fair bet that they would have kept a much closer guard on their tongues had they known there were Native American activists ready to throw their words back at them. That willingness to talk out of both sides of their mouths is what people are criticizing.
The Pale Scot
@Bob In Portland: Have you read The Man with the Iron Heart
El Caganer
@Bob In Portland: The Nazis own the Washington Redskins? Not following you here.
sdhays
As someone who finds the draw of professional sports baffling, I really can’t begin to fathom what the big deal is over changing the name of a business so that it doesn’t offend anyone, especially a monopoly business like an NFL team which really doesn’t have all that much to worry about by losing “name recognition”. But I still have to believe that if I was a football fanatic, I would be pissed off by the stupid asshole owner making a big deal over this and thus distracting from the game. Change the damn name and MOVE ON!
Howard Beale IV
@big ole hound: In Star Trek: Enterprise The Andorian Shran used to call Earthlings Pinkskins.
scav
They may not single handedly control the light switch, but they’re a part of the electrical system directly attached to that specific bulb. They are the necessary tacitly-complicit and accommodating if not actively cheering market that allows the Washington Racebaiter owners to indulge themselves. They also volunteered. Things in their whee-golly media event didn’t go quite as they envisioned when they knew they be able to outshine the amorphous crew of a TV show with known characteristics. oops. then they run to the regulating authorities. oops.
Bobby Thomson
@Keith G:
Doesn’t have to. The point isn’t to change their minds. It’s to make them pariahs and laughing stocks, pour encourager les autres.
. It works:
ETA: good point up thread. Also gets them to STFU, which is also progress.
The Pale Scot
@Cain: It was posted in the comment section of the article, which is filling up quickly as the clueless R***** fans pile in.
But if you google the first couple of lines there’s a selection to choose from.
Corner Stone
@Roger Moore:
I read the linked article and I didn’t see any direct quotes that were attributed to these four. Did I miss them?
A Humble Lurker
Potatoes. Potatoes are the answer to everything.
Belafon
@sdhays: one word: tribalism.
Amir Khalid
@Corner Stone:
These people made racist arguments for keeping the Redskins team name. In that matter, they do indeed have a racist attitude. Are they racists in other things? Possible, and indeed likely. We can’t see our own biases; it takes other people to show them to us.
I don’t know if there are any current or former Redskins players of Native heritage. It would be interesting to ask those particular gentlemen how they feel about the name, wouldn’t it?
Redshift
@Corner Stone:
Do you really think that’s the only thing that matters? Yes, demonstrating the hollowness of the “honoring Native Americans” bullshit they buy into is likely to make these specific individuals more defensive and dig in. But if you want to make it unacceptable in broader society, publicly mocking their position is going to do a hell of a lot more than taking them one by one into a nice safe consciousness-raising discussion.
Roger Moore
@Corner Stone:
I think the activists had that exactly right: the fans (and players, etc.) aren’t necessarily racists, but the team name and mascot definitely are. But the more those people ignore how actual Native Americans feel about the name and mascot, the less inclined I am to accept their professions of goodwill. If you want to honor people, you have an obligation to listen to their opinions about how you’re trying to honor them.
Corner Stone
@Amir Khalid:
What were those arguments?
kc
@Corner Stone:
Me neither.
Keith G
@Roger Moore:
Yet, the amount they chose to “guard’ their tongues is ultimately beside the issue that needs to be furthered.
This was a for all intents an episode of Maury Povich – it reached into the same bag of tricks. Maybe I am just an old flower child, but I have learned through much time spent advocating for minority rights that the more low-risk human to human contact that can be facilitated, the better off the process is.
Roger Moore
@sdhays:
The problem is that there are stubborn fans who absolutely will be offended by the team “knuckling under” and changing their name, and the owners listen much more carefully to those rabid fans than they do to the activists who are trying to get them to change.
Randy P
@Bobby Thomson:
That may have been true in 1948. It didn’t stick. The KKK may not have the numbers they had in their heyday, but they’re still around.
However, I take heart in stories like this that put the membership in the low thousands.
Corner Stone
@Redshift: Clearly it’s of little import in the larger scheme of things. But if they, as people, are irrelevant then why not target someone who has more weight?
I remember in Michael Moore’s documentary he went after the big guns (so to speak). This kind of thing seems cheap and inconsequential to me, but wevs.
I enjoy it when they get someone like an elected official or R party poobah to sublimely admit his/her bias. Aasif Mandvi is a genius at that, or at least the final cut of his interviews make him appear to be excellent at getting these people to say crazy shit.
Amir Khalid
@Corner Stone:
I suppose you’ll know soon enough, when the segment airs. But how does one make a non-racist argument to defend a racist action?
kc
A lot of the smug people on this thread, including the author of the post at the top, are going to be watching NFL football this weekend. The DC team doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
Redshift
@Corner Stone:
Ahem:
Corner Stone
@Amir Khalid: How does one assert what their argument is until one hears it?
Corner Stone
@Redshift: I agree that’s a foolish starting point, but as some number of Native Americans, for one reason or another, have supported the team and its mascot, I’m not sure what to ultimately categorize it as.
Keith G
@kc: Shush!!!!!
Corner Stone
@Keith G: Who is coming with me?…Dorothy Boyd, Thank You!!
Patrick
@kc:
I will be watching NFL this weekend and I think the Redskins name is utterly racist.
I am also very much in favor of much harsher environment regulations, but I will also drive a car later today.
Surely you realize that one can be against something and work towards that goal while still dealing with today’s reality until the goal is fulfilled.
Keith G
@Corner Stone: You had me at “Hello”, you rascal.
Fred Fnord
@Keith G: Hi, Keith! This is the clue fairy, here to remind you that:
a) You have no idea what does or does not change people’s minds. There is a substantial body of research on this subject.
b) Tone arguments do indeed make you a bad person. We each fight injustice in our own ways, and if you do not like the way someone else is doing it there are ample opportunities for you to try your own tactics.
c) Making people laugh at racists and thereby recognize their own racist tendencies, and how silly they are? Funny thing: turns out that this is indeed effective. Certainly more effective than spending your life telling other people how to fight racism.
kc
@Patrick:
Driving a car is more of a necessity than supporting a racist, DV-enabling sports organization, I think.
Bobby Thomson
@kc: Please explain why it’s punching down. The last I saw the tribes are not running things, and the people who are ignore them.
Fred Fnord
@kc: Heh indeedy! And the people who won’t be watching? Well, if they aren’t interested in football then why are they sticking their noses into this? They are clearly only paying attention because they are looking for an excuse to be offended. Right?
I’ve seen these two arguments trotted out over and over again. It’s cute.
henqiguai
@Corner Stone (#66):
There were an unfortunate number of Black supporters of George Wallace in his heyday. There’s currently people like Justice Thomas, Allen West, Dr. Ben Carson; arguably in the same space. What’s your point?
Redshift
@Corner Stone:
Are you trying to be obtuse? You were the one that said the only measure to consider was whether these specific people’s minds were changed. Now you’re ignoring my argument and again insisting that if these specific people aren’t being convinced, that there must be some equally effective way to make the point by going after someone more powerful.
There are plenty of people, including Native American activists and journalists, criticizing Snyder and others with power. And in fact the Daily Show has done segments on him. But putting pressure on him directly and trying to make the racist name socially unacceptable aren’t the same thing, and insisting that only one of them is allowable doesn’t make it so.
Corner Stone
@Keith G: I read this again and for a second I thought it said, “Sushi” and I was all like, “Hells to the yeah! Sushi sounds awesome!”
But I have left over oven fried chicken tenders and rosemary garlic roasted mashed potatoes so not sure I’m going to make the effort to get sushi tonight.
scav
@kc: Are you crazy? Who! Time Heist! but then I’m of the tribe that has never done football, I’m watching an amusing season of demolition-management.
As for the others, if they can manage to explicitly work on altering the electrical system closest to them, including reinforcing that cheap-lazy-don’t-want-to-update-or-improve-brand-I-AM-THE-BOSS-THAT’S-WHY team PR allied with the “My feeling of honoring the Natives necessarily trumps their feeling exploited!” BS, well that’s at least something. Not everything has to be focused on the single guy with the switch. Getting some more corporate push-back would also help and that’s going to need some perception of shifts in mass market moods to kick in.
Villago Delenda Est
@kc: Cripes, that’s pathetic. “You’re all guilty…especially you Cowboys fans!”
There must be a fire somewhere around that you, Keith G, and Corner Stone can find to die in. Then you’ll experience red skin of another type.
Keith G
@Fred Fnord: So, you are submitting that the presentation in question would be seen as comedy by the type of folks who need to be reached out to.
That is possible.
Dog On Porch
“but was laughed at by the cops”.
It’s like the scene in The Big Lebowski in which Dude asks the cop if they had any leads about who stole his car, and the cop laughs in his face and tells him a task force had been formed to do just that.
Anya
@Corner Stone: I get what you’re saying about these people not holding any power, but they agreed to be interviewed by Jason Fucking Jones of the Daily Show. They weren’t going on 60 Minutes or AC360. What did they expect from the Daily Show? A serious interview? I think they got off easy.
Keith G
@Corner Stone: Dude. I just bought a fresh swordfish steak from Airline Seafood. I am so damn happy that place is right around the corner.
Corner Stone
@henqiguai: Quite simply, my point was that I’d like to hear what these four individuals were arguing before I drop the racist banhammer on them. As I have previously asked, does supporting the WAS team as-is make one a de facto racist? And if so, what does that make the people who play for the team?
I wasn’t making the argument that “some people say”.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@kc: I may be smug (guilty, too often), but I won’t be watching the NFL. I haven’t in decades other than parts of an occasional SuperBowl once in a blue moon.
I used to enjoy watching the Bears on TV in the mid-80s, but even when Jim McMahon was helping the team win, there was something broken about the way they played. Smashing helmets together with teammates until they “saw stars” after a good play was nuts. Sure enough, he’s got early stages of dementia.
Similarly, seeing Tim Krumrie’s leg snap and flap around like a rubber band in the 1989 SuperBowl (and the dozens of replays afterward) reinforced the view that the game was too dangerous for the players but the league, advertisers, and fans didn’t care.
And Madden’s joy over all the violence was disgusting, also too.
But I’m weird. I just don’t care about sports anymore (though I loved playing soccer as a kid).
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
Corner Stone
@Redshift: I think you have sadly missed my entire argument and are, literally, quite a bit behind.
Patrick
@kc:
I just gave you one example. I could give you hundreds. In addition, how do you know if a car is more important to native Americans vs having this racist name in their rubbed in their noses every Sunday?
Furthermore, I read that Minnesota is working towards in their ticket information and program information not include the name Redskins. They would just have the word Washington. They are actually doing something proactively. Or do you think they are smug as well to use your words?
kc
@Villago Delenda Est:
Whatever, psycho.
Comrade Dread
@A Humble Lurker: It would be pretty funny/sad/horrifying to set up a series of interviews or discussion panels on Ferguson with white folks in front of a two-way mirror and black folks listening in the other room. At the end of the discussion, they flip the switch and all the white folks can see the black folks.
kc
@Villago Delenda Est:
I didn’t say THAT . . . but I would have, if I’d thought of it. Fuck the Cowboys!
Corner Stone
@Anya: No, they expected to be mocked, if you believe them. They seemed like they signed on for some things. But they specifically asked some things and were lied to.
I think using a lot of different tactics against CEO’s, public officials, etc is just fine when you’re looking for a public benefit story.
Whatever the topic is, would you condone someone lying to you to get your cooperation?
Redshift
@Corner Stone: Since the explanation was made up after the fact by the blatantly racist team owner who named the team, and there published documentation from the time when he named the team that proves that had nothing to do with the name choice, and since it’s the same fucking justification that’s been used for every racist name and mascot in college and professional sports, it really doesn’t seem that difficult.
Finding a few in-group supporters who are willing to go public doesn’t carry much weight, especially when you have lots of money to throw around. If you’re actually sincere about “honoring,” you ask for permission, rather than asserting that you get to decide what “honors” another group.
Corner Stone
@Villago Delenda Est: Couldn’t you find a nice sharp tumbrel around here for me, instead?
Seems a little extreme, if you ask me.
Citizen_X
@kc: Certainly, we can all agree that Cowboys fans are guilty.
kc
@Patrick:
Your question makes no sense.
Corner Stone
@kc:
Tony Romo sucks!
Amir Khalid
@Corner Stone:
All restaurant chains suck. That’s corporate mediocrity for you.
kc
I do wish the team would just change its farkin’ name already. We all know that name is gonna get changed, sooner or later. It would be nice if it were sooner. Seems like that would be better for the team than this excruciating, drawn-out controversy.
Redshift
@Corner Stone: Uh-huh. You ignore my points addressing your initial argument, then insist that my responses to your points have “missed your entire argument” with no mention of what you think I missed.
But if that’s what you need to convince yourself you’ve “won,” go for it, dude.
jl
No time to watch now, but not sure this is going to be one of my favorite Daily Show episodes. Don’t know if I will like the nature of the ambush.
OTOH, the insensitivity of many whites (even not otherwise seemingly bigoted whites) to ethnic and racial stereotypes surprises me.
Say you are a white Jew bigoted against blacks and don’t see the big issue with ‘Southern tradition’ plantation parties. How would you like to be invited to an Egyptian Pharaoh party. The Egyptions get to dress up in fancy stuff, slinky women in them slinky Egyption gowns (Yah dude, I could get into that!).. You come in rags.
We could think outside the box. How about a toga party where not everyone gets to be a patrician. The Italians do (honorary, since many Italians are descendants of the barbarian invadors, but what the heck, all in fun and games). Shit-ass Europeans get to all dress in smocks, get called ‘boy’ and ‘girl’ and have fun and games of letting the patricians use their hair as a washrag.
Even more outside the box, Take some slavic white ethnic.bigot and remind them that slavs where a big item in the white slave trade back in the day. Let’s have a party about that, they can play the slaves, because, you know, that is their heritage! And you know, there is no evidence over the last hundred years or so that slavic groups are in anyway sensitive about their hertiage at all, is there?
How about a party where the Korean women pretend like they are the ‘housemaids’ of however is invading them at the moment?
That would be an interesting experiment, to suggest such parties. Better not push it far, might get feelings bent out of shape more than those awkward and often scandal-provoking class room experiments where the blue or brown eyes are arbitrarily divided up into the masters and slaves, or higher and lower class group.
But, hey, in the US, African-Americans, Native Americans? What is the fuss. just get over it already? Right? Accept your heritage.
kc
@Citizen_X:
Common ground!
Corner Stone
@Redshift: Yeah! I won!!
FlipYrWhig
I dunno, seems like a pretty effective gonzo stunt to take a bunch of people claiming to honor Native Americans and confront them with Native Americans who don’t feel particularly honored. Is it a way to change anyone’s opinions or spread social justice? Um, no. But… was it supposed to be? It’s a comedy show, not a community organizer’s civic forum.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: So Justice, it’s hard to tell which way your scales are tipping. Har Har, good for The Daily Show! or Hmmm, good one. ?
jl
Before I go, I will let everyone know I will contact lil’ Newtie about an idea that he certainly has the gravitas and rep to push among the relevant social groups.
Lil’ Newtie likes to think outside the box, and can see problems and issues from the perspective of many intersections at many levels. And, I believe he has written in the alternative history genre.
You kids, this idea will be SO MUCH FUN! Let’s have an alternative history Southern Tradition party for aftermath of a successful slave revolt that took over the whole South. The ex-slaves get to wear the fancy clothes and new black plantation owner gets took at the pretty white ‘house women’ with that special gleam in his eye. The white people get to come in the ex-slave clothes. But, it’s all fun and games, and the rags the whites wear will be freshly washed, and what is the problem?
Edit: Don’t have time to read all the comments, so apologies if some other BJ commenter already suggested this fantastic idea, that I am sure will sweeping the South soon, and I look forward to the fun pics, posted right here on this blog from the news stories.
Gex
These people claimed they were honoring Native Americans. That is the lie they tell us and it is the lie they tell themselves. Many of us know it is a lie. They don’t know it is a lie. Until they are confronted in such a manner. If they really believed that, they would have no problem saying it directly to Native American people.
Yes, they got duped. But by their own claims, they weren’t doing anything that embarrassed themselves. So what’s their beef?
hamletta
Corner Stone, you ought to put wheels on those goal posts. Makes ’em easier to move.
As a DC native and lifelong fan of the Potomac Valley Indigenous Peoples, I say fuck these whiny-ass titty babies. Going to the cops because you got embarrassed? You think DC cops don’t have anything better to do than avenge your butthurt?
Fuck them. And Dan Snyder. And the fuckin’ Cowboys.
Bob In Portland
@The Pale Scot: Not that one, but I’ve read other Turtledove books.
What is interesting is that the dispersal and survival of Nazis is the stuff of fiction and fantasy, but in 1944 it was fact.
skerry
I hope that all of you arguing over the ethics of a comedy show drop down a post and read about the People’s Climate March. You can do something about climate change.
Corner Stone
@hamletta: Which goalposts, hammie?
IOW, WTF are you talking about?
FlipYrWhig
@Gex: that’s kind of what I think. The fact that they feel embarrassed is pretty solid proof that the “honoring” explanation isn’t as airtight as they claim.
(Personally, I think that compared to most Indian-nicknamed teams, the Redskins’ logos and such are more dignified and respectful, and I think Indian heraldry is often well-intentioned, like the Indian-head penny was. But “Redskins” isn’t a way to honor anything. That word isn’t a tribute. “Indians” probably is. “Braves” is. “Seminoles” and “Illini” are. The logo probably is. The “Redskins” nickname just isn’t.)
Corner Stone
On a thread about the NFL, I guess it makes complete sense to totally disregard a woman saying she felt threatened. I know that I, personally, just think she should pull up her big girl panties, suck it up, lay back and think of England, and take one for the team.
“Oh, you didn’t like that, you fucking racist? Well guess what? Now *this* is happening! Har har har har!! You deserve it!”
James E Powell
@Roger Moore:
The problem is that there are stubborn fans who absolutely will be offended by the team “knuckling under” and changing their name, and the owners listen much more carefully to those rabid fans than they do to the activists who are trying to get them to change.
Is there any evidence that dropping a racist team name or logo affects revenue? In either direction?
We should have some data from the many colleges who have made the right move.
scav
@Gex: Some of the defenses are setting off these weird little echoes in my head. “You’re honored if I say you’re honored! Shut Up and Take Your Honoring!” “It’s totally not a problem if she married the guy and some women admit they deserve it!” “Hey! It’s just how we dun it in the past, can’t argue with it.” Plus the ever popular “Can’t you whiners get out of the way of my TV? You’re interfering with my Entertainment and I have to scroll further to get the results on ESPN!”
WaterGirl
@jl: There was a group in my town (I do not recall their name) that hosted a fall dinner for years, and attendees were randomly given either a nice, full dinner or some pathetic meal that you would likely have to eat if you don’t have enough money.
So you sat there and ate at a table together – a mixture of “haves” and “have nots”. It was very effective.
Corner Stone
@Keith G: I’ve never been. But this doesn’t seem all that excellent.
Airline Seafood Market and FDA
Good news is it was in 2011, so maybe they are better since then.
And it looks like they are! From 2013:
http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/2013/ucm369134.htm
scav
@Corner Stone: All those heavily armed cops everywhere claim to feel threatened, plus the Tribe Zimmerman and porch-shooters and mid-night grand-child shooters all claiming to feel threatened. Seriously, threatened by a TV show with cameras rolling? You are are soooooo scrabbling for purchase on the cliff-face.
WaterGirl
@Gex: What’s their beef? Their beef is that you pulled back the curtain on their racism or at least their cluelessness and complete insensitivity toward others. It made them look in the mirror, essentially. That they flipped out when the others came in tells you that at some level they know they are wrong, even if they won’t admit it to themselves.
Corner Stone
@scav: If you want to lump this 56 year old teacher in with Zimmerman and police officers who have shot innocent people with no cause, please proceed.
If it was your wife, daughter or sister would you think the same? That she was bullshitting because Jason Jones was there, too?
scav
@Corner Stone: What I’m pointing out is that claiming to feel threatened is a bit of a boilerplate defense at the moment, and furthermore conflating + equating the fear of not looking good in a TV show with the fear of bodily harm is rather amusing and doesn’t look good on you.
FlipYrWhig
@Corner Stone: does she say she felt threatened? The excerpt quoted above says she felt “trapped,” and it’s not clear if that means physically or mentally.
ETA: By “mentally” I mean that perhaps she didn’t know what to say, like in a logical trap.
Corner Stone
@FlipYrWhig: “The encounter at a Dupont Circle hotel was so tense that an Alexandria fan said she left in tears and felt so threatened that she later called the police.”
Corner Stone
@scav: You can disregard her contention, if you like.
Mike in NC
@The Pale Scot: I have that book but haven’t read it yet. We visited Prague in 2010 and learned the story of Heydritch’s assassination by British-trained Czech soldiers. He was a monster even by Nazi standards.
scav
@Corner Stone: I’m taking it as unproven as to it’s being a reasonable concern, although I’m sure she felt something unpleasant. accepting it as a reasonable fear rather implies that she necessarily equated being outnumbered in a room with those savages even with cameras rolling was necessarily logically followed by either rape or bodily harm, not exactly the image I think the totally non-racist but honoring woman wants to project at the moment.
AxelFoley
@GHayduke (formerly lojasmo):
BURN!
Corner Stone
@scav: I think you’re trying too hard here. If a woman says she felt threatened, to a degree that she contacts police, then it may be more serious than you’re allowing.
The police laughed it off, not sure that’s where I’d want to end up on this.
But, hey. She probably deserved it. She knew what she was getting into, right? Oh, wait…that’s right. They completely fucking lied to her about what was going to happen. I’m not sure how anyone can argue informed consent when she was specifically lied to.
Corner Stone
@AxelFoley: Yeah! BURN!! BURN, motherfucker, burn!!
Yeah!! That’s the shit!! BURN!! Yeah!!
Thanks ONT!
The Pale Scot
@Mike in NC: It gets panned in reviews but I liked it. It’s Harlequin for military history fans.
VOR
@Patrick: The Washington team’s name is being omitted because the Minnesota Vikings are temporarily playing at the University of Minnesota’s stadium. The NCAA rules are driving this, not anything from the NFL or the Vikings organization.
JaneE
Fortunately, I don’t live where there is a large Washington fan base. Instead of avoiding the team name, I wish sportscasters would use a euphemism – something like “The Washington Bounty Tokens used to calculate blood money payments for murdering Native Americans”. Each and every time they need to refer to the team by name. Not that the genocidal racist fans would care, but the rest of the country might understand just how really clueless the fans are.
Joel
@Corner Stone: My guess is that they are de facto organizers of a “keep the name” group, which would make them fair game. If they’re just everyday shmoes, then it’s less cool.
muddy
It’s not as though they thought they were speaking in private, and suddenly found out it was public. They were perfectly happy to say these things on camera, not spur of the moment, but specifically on this topic. They were quite happy for Native Americans to hear what they said, as long as they had to hear it on tv. I really don’t think anyone has been taken advantage of if they volunteer to speak on camera. It’s public, it’s public throughout, it’s not private.
I think everyone has public and private speech to one extent or another, but this was not private to begin with.
Corner Stone
@Joel: There’s no mention of that in the article. Why would you guess that to be the case? One guy says explicitly that going up against Amanda Blackhorse is beyond him as he’s just an average fan. They mention recruiting through Twitter but don’t mention any association with “keep the name” groups.
muddy
@Corner Stone: She was in danger of literally dying of embarrassment.
Corner Stone
@muddy: You may dismiss her contention, if you care to. I’m sure it was all fun and games for her, contrary to what she has said. I, personally, don’t believe her. I’ve heard things about her, things like maybe she cheers for a football team a little too vociferously on a first date, if you know what I mean.
Patrick
@VOR:
Do you by any chance have a link showing that? I have read about the issue, but have any seen anywhere that they were forced to do this by the NCAA. Instead all I have seen is that the University by itself that’s driving it.
kc
@scav:
Mansplaining alert.
muddy
@Corner Stone: The phrase “dying of embarrassment” is used for a reason. It really does feel just dreadful. The feeling helps to remind us not to do/say that shit. Seriously the feeling is so strong I feel like it’s an evolved trait that helps us get along in a group.
Corner Stone
@muddy: She doesn’t use the word embarrassment anywhere in the article. She does use the word threaten.
If you’re making a point about how she really felt mortified and embarrassed when she claims she felt threatened, then I guess you could attempt to make that argument.
Otherwise, can you mudsplain for me?
Woodrowfan
well, this was a fun thread.
chopper
@Woodrowfan:
That sounds threatening to me.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
All you need to know is that its ‘punching down’ the superfans who knew full well who they weren’t honoring, and not the Native Americans themselves.
Any takers on the race and class of the four the Daily Show brought in?
chopper
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
But why can’t we just leave regular racist-ass schmucks alone? It’s not like regular racist assholes ever hurt anyone.
ellennellee
@Corner Stone:
good grief, man; do you really need this to be spelled out for you?
are you missing this parallel in the same way the fans did?
the point was not the bum rush on the fans, but the claims of victimhood when they were.
totally missing that they were unable to roll with it the way they were insisting the natives should.
you know – they can dish it out but not take it?
yeah, a joke is not so funny when it has to be spelled out.
neither is racism.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@chopper: There is none more victimized than the coddled white suburbanite, my friend.
chopper
@muddy:
She probably thought one of those dudes was gonna yell out “eh-neek-chock” any second and grow 50 feet tall.
ellennellee
@Corner Stone:
if she were my wife or daughter or sister? hell yeah, i’d think the same.
i’d be freakin’ ashamed as hell of her, fwiw.
she’d never hear the end of it from me, not till she actually got it.
not the joke; her racism.
she of course would not be able to get the joke till she got her own racism.
ya got that??
dude, give up on this one; you’re essentially trying to protect racists from being mocked when their crime here is mocking indians by insensitively misusing the abusive slang about them. oh yeah, we honor the redskins by using their name. oh yeah, we honor the blackskins by making them our modern gladiators. while calling them redskins. playing in arenas the blackskins built on land once owned by the redskins.
get a clue, man; whiteskins stole the land and enslaved the workers. and you want to defend their insensitive fee fees?
just, whoa.
gwangung
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
Daily show MIGHT have been punching down.
The Native Americans certainly were not. In fact, I’d say they were punching up a bit. And I think they did most of the punching.
Corner Stone
Hmmm, Tara Houska, or some schmucks on Balloon Juice? Houska…schmucks. Schmucks…Houska…Wow, this is a tough call. Really tough.
muddy
@Corner Stone: I have a Native American friend too. Just the one, but I usually assume he speaks for all. I love that about him, especially when he agrees with me.
A Humble Lurker
@Corner Stone:
That isn’t what the schmucks of Balloon Juice are saying?
Corner Stone
@muddy: I guess that’s a valid response, thanks.
Wow, a woman doesn’t actually feel threatened when she claims she felt threatened and now a Native American can’t recognize racism when she states her belief someone wasn’t a racist.
Corner Stone
@A Humble Lurker: Clearly, the schmucks at Balloon Juice are making the definitive statement that these four specific individuals are racists.
Houska stated the people weren’t, in her opinion, but the team mascot was wrong. But, hell. What does she know about it?
gwangung
@Corner Stone: Keep going. You’re being very amusing tonight.
Corner Stone
@gwangung: Thanks!
chopper
@muddy:
It’s like when the president says the tea party isn’t racist. You know it’s true, because why else would he say that in public?
Darkrose
@Keith G: If someone invites me to be on a show that has, on more than one occasion, indicated that its producers think my position is stupid, perhaps I might think twice about being on said show. Of course, I’d have to have some idea that perhaps my position wasn’t stupid, instead of assuming that since I don’t mean to be racist, clearly I’m not and how dare you call me on my racism.
chopper
@Darkrose:
Anybody making the argument that the term “redskin” is respectful or honoring of native americans is being a racist. Just like arguing that ‘darkie’ or ‘wetback’ is honoring black or Mexican folk.
Second, anybody going to be interviewed by TDS over that team name intending to make that argument without knowing that the show is going to make them look like the asshole they’re being is an idiot.
So, racist and an idiot. Good combo.
Lihtox
@Amir Khalid:
From the article:
Calling someone a racist, in this circumstance, is too easy. It makes them “other”, it makes them very easy to put in a little box and hate them and not deal with racism in ourselves or the people we love. Some people deserve the box: the white supremacists, the Klansmen. They wouldn’t have pretended that “Redskins” was a compliment, they wouldn’t have been ashamed to say the same thing in the presence of the Native Americans.
Ms. Houska has the right idea, I think. They’re not racist people, but they have racist ideas, they say racist things. As do we all; it’s simply a matter of degree.
My two cents, anyway.
tybee
@GHayduke (formerly lojasmo):
you have him pegged.
scav
@kc: That’d be a trick.
Corner Stone
@tybee: What’s going on between us, tybee? I thought we had something special.
tybee
@Corner Stone:
as usual, you’re a legend in your own mind.
Corner Stone
@tybee: So you’re just going to keep ankle biting me?
Ok, I guess.
tybee
@Corner Stone:
sucking up is so “you”.
scav
@Corner Stone: And, from what I’ve heard of the circumstances, I don’t see why it is unreasonable to expect one is on the whole more likely to be physically safer than not in in a room filled with rolling cameras for a nationally known broadcast, whereas it’s mandatory for me to ignore the possibility that an upset person with a grievance is likely to be presenting boilerplate explanations likely to make her case stronger in the court of public opinion and the law. All I can work with is my take on the balance of probabilities.
Corner Stone
@tybee: Of course it is, you silly person!
Corner Stone
@scav:
Beyond the linked article, what have you heard of the circumstances?
Bobby Thomson
@Corner Stone:
Because having to be in the same room with people after talking racist trash about them is EXACTLY the same thing as being raped. I really shouldn’t feed you, but FSM, you’re pathetic.
Corner Stone
@Bobby Thomson: No one but you said anything about rape.
Speaking of pathetic, cue the Bobby Train…
La Gata Gris
@Lihtox: Yeah, well Ms Houska is more patient than I, for I am done with white lady tears. FUCK IT. I’m Native, I’ve heard a lot of stupid shit from white people. Sure, most of them (as I am sure is true of O’Dell) are not monsters – they don’t go around kicking puppies and stealing candy from babies. That’s nice. But their misconceptions and prejudices cause us a lot of misery. There are plenty of white folks like O’Dell who would love to dissolve the tribal governments and reservations – they hold us back, you know. And all Americans should be equal under the law, why uphold these old moldy treaties from the 18th and 19th centuries? It’s silly.
Never mind there are people like O’Dell who think laws like ICWA should be overturned – of course these laws hurt nice meaning whites who want to give Indian kids a home – never mind many of them are removed from their families without any due process, and even tho there are Indian relatives and foster homes those are mysteriously bypassed.
Sure, I am sure folks like O’Dell are generally nice – they don’t go around tearing up daisies, setting kittens on fire or screaming obscenities in the middle of church services. I am sure they are able to hold conversations with brown people without once uttering a ‘slur’ – even the word ‘redskin’. That’s real nice. That doesn’t mean that these people’s ignorance, prejudices and hopelessly misguided ideas don’t cause Natives real harm. So fuck it, I am just not in the mood to feel sorry for white lady tears today. Nope. Not feeling it.
300baud
@Corner Stone:
Do you have any evidence that she was actually threatened? It seems odd to think that, given that there were a number of people around, including her fellow fans and various production staff, that she was at actual risk of harm, or that somebody made threats. If threats were made on video tape, the police presumably would have been all over that.
A more reasonable interepretation of the article is that she felt bad, which, being privileged, she confused and/or conflated with feeling threatened. That her self-image was under threat, not her body.
AxelFoley
@kc:
Interesting that you’re caping for this racist shit.
Oh, yeah, remember you claiming that I was caping for Ray Rice, bitch? Shoe’s on the other foot, asswipe.
Peter Akuleyev
@big ole hound: White people are “palefaces”. If you consider “paleface” a slur, than you would consider “redskin” a slur. “Redskin” was originally not used consciously as a slur. The term “Redskins” is a lot like “Oriental” or “Negro”, once a fairly neutral term that became seen as a slur simply because a lot of white people are racists, and any word racists use for a group they despise will eventually come to seem derogatory.
chopper
@La Gata Gris:
Butbutbut…Ms. Houska’s public statement says they aren’t racist. Case closed, man. Case closed.
It’s not like a NA organization trying to effect change in white attitudes would ever avoid availing themselves of the chance to publicly call regular white schmucks a bunch of racists.
D58826
I still fail to see the ‘honor’ in the name. Does this mean that every Jet airplane is being honored by the New Jets name? Or all of those unappreciated ‘Giants’ that have been overlooked by history.
You really really have to wrap yourself in the stupid blanket to buy what Snyder is selling but apparently it is working. sad.
Gex
@ellennellee:
Quoted for awesomeness. These folks should just follow their own advice for what one should do when one feels out numbered, duped, disrespected, and threatened.
xian
@Corner Stone: you are over interpreting. the thing speaks for itself.
native americans were going to see the bit and respond to it. the only difference is the twitter fans got to meet the people they were prating about.
xian
@The Pale Scot: why would you engage with a derailment troll?
xian
@Roger Moore: we don’t need to talk about whether they are racist – we can just talk about whether what they are saying is racist:
http://www.illdoctrine.com/2008/07/how_to_tell_people_they_sound.html
Another Holocene Human
@Corner Stone: “Punching down” okay, now you’ve spiked the football, no need to dance in the end zone for more than 30 seco- errrr–ohhhh—okay.
Confronting those poor, innocent racists “eager” to defend their team name with the consequences of their words is punching down.
What truly strikes me is the Racial Slur Nation’s arrogance. Pride goeth before a fall….
Another Holocene Human
@Howard Beale IV: Enterprise is not Star Trek. They even said it themselves (okay, okay, so they changed the name after the ratings went into the shitter). DS9 was the last good Trek series, Captain Sisko FTW!
ETA: actually this is so on topic, look at how much Voyager failed with Native American representation, pretty disgusting when you think about it… apparently NA indigenous people are the final frontier for racist appropriation
Another Holocene Human
@Fred Fnord:
Cosigned. Mockery is a VERY effective persuasion technique. Facts actually work to further entrench positions, and empathy doesn’t work on those who refuse to engage (as the Redskin fans refused to engage the Native American activists and were FURIOUS that they were face to face with them–exposure increases empathy and the last thing they wanted was to recognize them as human beings).
Another Holocene Human
@kc: It’s all fun and games until it’s your ox getting gored, eh, kc?
CS doesn’t surprise me but you, you disappointed me.
Another Holocene Human
@chopper: It’s arrogance. They thought they would get some good jabs in that would make it to air and show those politically correct lie-brul nannybots up. They also think that all white people secretly agree with them, including Jason Jones. That’s why him asking them questions didn’t ruffle their feathers. It’s all an act, JJ would actually agree with us if the n******* and s**** on the production crew weren’t around.
Another Holocene Human
@La Gata Gris: Thanks for having the courage to delurk here and share your thoughts despite the incessant concern trolling (and mansplaining about rape, so that happened) going on in this thread.
Another Holocene Human
@Peter Akuleyev: Wrong. Red man was the neutral term. Redskin originated in racist (white supremacist) 19th century American pulp fiction and has always been a racial slur. The metonomy of skin for person is deeply racist in a very American way.
Corner Stone
@Another Holocene Human: Yeah, you strike me as the type of fuck nozzle that would take a surprise by people who disagreed with you really well.
You’d scream holy hell for about 14 paragraphs. And no one would be able to tell exactly what viewpoint you were arguing for or against.