The owner of a gun range in Hot Springs, Arkansas this week declared that her business was a “Muslim Free Zone.”
In a post on her website, Gun Cave Indoor Shooting Range owner Jan Morgan explained why she had decided to ban all Muslims.
“This is not a coffee and donut shop. This is a live fire indoor shooting range,” she wrote. “In the range, people are shooting guns in close proximity to each other, so my patrons depend on me and my discretion regarding who I allow to shoot beside them. One mistake in judgement on my part could cost innocent people their lives.”
Banning certain people across the board would sound crazy if nobody ever rented a gun and shot up the range, but people do that! People like white gun nuts, and…well…pretty much just them.
Oak Ridge Gun Range, the scene of the latest suicide last week in Orange County, changed its policy after a previous death more than a year ago. Oak Ridge is now attempting to identify customers who would be a suicide risk.
“We don’t rent to any white male Florida resident who comes in alone,” said owner John Harvey. “In the past 30 years, we’ve never had a suicide that wasn’t a white male Florida resident who came in alone. They don’t want to mess up their families’ homes, so they do it here.”
Belafon
Doesn’t understand discrimination, and doesn’t really care about who the violent people in this country are.
ETA: The name of the gun shop owner in the second thread: Khaled Akkawi. Sounds suspicious. (sarcasm) Note, this is the name of the gun shop, Shoot Straight, mentioned at the beginning of the article, not the gun range Tim mentioned.
Jeffro
Wow – it’s almost like restricting access to handguns saves lives.
Strange, that.
Bill Arnold
How would the enforcement of such a rule work? How does one know a potential customer’s religion? Church ID cards? What if a shooter were carrying a fake church ID? Ask each potential customer to eat pork (and bonus, exclude vegans/vegetarians too)? Would President Barrack Obama be allowed to shoot there? So many (ridiculous) questions.
Corner Stone
Her blog post doesn’t indicate how she plans to identify these “muslims” for banning.
Botsplainer
Goddamn raghead Muslim hater of all things good and white. He probably is an Obama voter.
/wingnut
glocksman
Isn’t this a civil rights violation?
Gunshop and range owners do have the right to refuse sale to individuals under certain circumstances, but AFAIK, they cannot just announce a blanket prohibition on people because of their religion.
Besides, how can she tell who’s muslim and who’s not?
Villago Delenda Est
@Jeffro: It’s like if you restrict access to tools that kill, fewer killings take place!
Amazing correlation, that! Why hasn’t anyone thought of that before?
And I answer my own question: Because the toolmakers need to move product, and don’t care who buys the tools as long as the checks clear.
Corner Stone
Couple things, 1)that is an awesome setup for a great joke and 2)I have no idea what an allah akbar ring tone sounds like, but I want it.
Tommy
But we will serve the white guy in a wifebeater shirt, that has a criminal record, drops the “N word” all the time. They are good Americans. But not that Muslim. All this tells me is this lady is stupid and two, there are not many Muslims in Hot Springs, Arkansas that frequent her place. Oh and PR stunt.
Villago Delenda Est
@glocksman: The Muslims are the wild eyed ones.
You know, like Michelle Bachmann.
Botsplainer
@Corner Stone:
Probably some generic PaliPop song about girls with great asses. It sounded furrin’ and scary.
wuzzat
@Corner Stone:
A preview of the new application form:
1. Are you a Muslim? Y/N
2. Lying is bad. T/F
glocksman
@Tommy:
An ill thought out publicity stunt if a muslim comes in and is denied service because of his religion.
Federal civil rights lawsuit here we come.
Mustang Bobby
@glocksman:
Think of the Duck Dynasty guys but without the accent.
Tommy
@Corner Stone: I was in a meeting the other day at a client’s location. First time I’d been in her office. I like to know my surroundings and quickly saw there was a Muslim (I don’t know the name for it) icon on the wall that pointed to Mecca. While in the meeting her phone went off, betting this was what that wing nut heard, with a “Call for Prayer.”
She seemed somewhat embarrassed about it. Or maybe just worried what I would think. I told her I could care less her faith. That I even had to say I don’t think all Muslims are terrorist, well I think that sums up how FUBAR things are in this nation. I told her all this not to get her money, but because I hate, well hate.
Jeffro
I think the second article, and the issues it raises, are fascinating. Essentially the range owner is saying, “We recognize that unlimited access to firearms is in certain circumstances” (i.e., his wallet’s circumstances) “na gah happen”. SLIPPERY SLOPE!!
Most things in this country would get solved faster if we just figured out how to hit the perpetrators in the wallet.
SatanicPanic
So THIS is why liberals are trying to convert everyone to Islam, it’s a backdoor plan to encourage gun control. Also, too BENGHAZI!
CONGRATULATIONS!
Not the first place I’ve heard of that’s done this.
Had a wanna be Rambo at the range a few years back, firing mag after mag after mag (at about 20 bucks per mag in ammo) from his AR at a target ten feet away (yeah, that’ll help your marksmanship), pistol on belt holster, pistol on chest holster, camo bandanna tied around head, combat knives in knee holsters on both knees. THAT guy made me far more nervous than the gangbangers who show up Friday nights and whose girlfriends giggle and wave loaded pistols all over the place while taking selfies.
All I want from any Muslims who show up is a respect for and practice of safe gun handling rules.
Oh yeah, and this local range doesn’t allow anyone to shoot by themselves anymore unless they’re long-time customers, because suicide.
Shakezula
“And how many
YetisMuslims have you spotted so far?”“Approximately, as of this date? Almost one.”
blueskies
@Jeffro:
Mandatory gun-ownership insurance. ;)
divF
I clicked on the link to the NY Daily News about the Chicago ATC from last night, and found this a link to this gem.
? Martin
@Corner Stone: You shoot them in the head, and if the body falls toward Mecca, they’re Muslim. It’s nearly foolproof.
boatboy_srq
One more reason I left.
Betty & MB, how soon until the evacuation?
Bokonon
Because … we all know that the best way to deter jihadists is to put up signs saying “no Muslims allowed.”
They just turn around and go right back home. Mission accomplished.
Tommy
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
That would freak me the fuck out and rarely am I freaked out about anything.
RSA
Heh. Good one.
? Martin
@Tommy: It’s called a ‘mihrab’.
Mustang Bobby
@Tommy: To quote the immortal Pat McCormack, “His dick was so small he could f*ck a Cheerio.”
Fred
You could have “The Catch 22 Gun Range”. The operating policy being: Don’t rent a gun to anyone who wants one. That way you could eliminate the real crazies right out of the gate.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Tommy: Freaked me out and I left early, and told the staff why (the staff/owner and I all get along great, I’m like their pet libtard or something) and I’ve never seen him back, so they may have 86ed him. Or not. I got the distinct impression they weren’t real happy with him either.
I go about every six months or so, so overlap with me and any other shooters is rare.
Tommy
@? Martin: Thanks! I was sure it had a name, just wasn’t sure what it was.
We had a long conversation. She was kind of stunned I know as much as I did about her faith, given I am an open Athiest. I told her I like to read. She is as Anglo looking as me, but converted because she married a man from Kuwait. I tried to explain, and I think I was somewhat successful, in that I don’t understand why Christians seem to be against Muslims when if you read the Koran and the Bible, well there might be a little (insert a ton) of crossover.
Tractarian
Scrutinizing shooting range customers to determine if they are a risk to patrons = good.
Assuming all Muslims are risks and all non-Muslims are not = bad.
Tommy
@CONGRATULATIONS!: I can only assume you’ve heard me say here I fired a gun about five times. Didn’t enjoy it (long story). But everybody I know owns guns. They beg me to go to this range by me and (1) learn about gun safety and (2) fire a gun. I really need to do that.
KG
@Bokonon: probably more effective than TSA
Corner Stone
@Tommy:
Is that anything like when the media says someone is “openly gay” ?
What marks an open Atheist versus an atheist?
Belafon
@Tractarian: Not just from a Civil Rights standpoint, but a safety one as well.
Lurking Canadian
@? Martin: If they fall away from Mecca, just means they’re well-disciplined Muslims.
Belafon
@Corner Stone: Open atheists wear all white rainbows.
Tommy
@Corner Stone: I don’t know now I read what I wrote. Maybe I am open about it. Will bring it up in even casual conversation about faith or religion. Might need to find a better word and/or phrase.
schrodinger's cat
How is the gun range owner going to identify Muslims? They don’t come with a stamp on their foreheads.
Haydnseek
John Stewart, please pick up the white courtesy phone! This is the perfect setup for an Aasif Mandvi segment………
glocksman
@Tommy:
As I’m sure you’re aware, gun safety is simple.
1. Assume every gun is loaded.
2. Never point a gun at anything you don’t intend to shoot.
3. Keep finger away from the trigger until the gun is pointed at your target.
4. Know where your bullets are going to stop. Indoor ranges have armored backstops.
In the field, a hill or berm makes an ideal backstop if no other humans are around.
5. Wear ear protection. Gunfire can cause permanent hearing damage.
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
With a pistol carried for self defense that distance is good practice if done properly.
With an AR? Not so good.
Mustang Bobby
@schrodinger’s cat: Yeah, that’s the other brown people from the other side of the world, India. They all look alike, though.
/mycrazyuncle
SatanicPanic
@Corner Stone: I grew up in a small town and can imagine why someone wouldn’t want to volunteer that kind of information
KG
@schrodinger’s cat:
don’t give the GOP presidential candidates any ideas.
Botsplainer
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Am thinking it might be fun to get gun nuts worked up about this single gun renter/shooter exclusion as a creeping threat to their second amendment freedoms. We could get Gohmert or somebody to start hearings on The Single Shooter Liberty Freedom Patriotism Founding Father America Loving Practice Act of 2014, and get the nuts to sob tears over tyrannical librul range owners.
Haydnseek
@Tommy: Mighty white of you there, old sport.
Corner Stone
@glocksman:
The problem, from a self defense perspective, is that very much beyond 10 feet and it’s hard to argue deadly intent of the attacker. So if you absolutely have to ice down a hash-crazed mob of muslims with your beloved AR, then that’s a reasonable distance at which to practice.
Tommy
@glocksman: Yes it is simple. Even with a toy gun I pointed it at somebody as a kid, it was ripped out of my hand. Dad said don’t ever point a gun at somebody unless you intend to use it.
But why I need to get to that range, I am not sure I know if a gun is loaded. I know so little about guns on the basic level.
ericblair
@glocksman:
Cuz ‘ee looks like one! You know, brown and not Messican.
Sort of like the idea of requiring only non-citizens to carry ID. How would you tell who’s an actual citizen (who doesn’t need ID), and a non-citizen who’s lying? This would seem to be a bit of a poser, except there’s a simple answer, of course.
Mike in NC
So when is Jan Morgan going to appear on Hannity’s show?
schrodinger's cat
@Mustang Bobby: There are black Muslims, Muslims from the Indian subcontinent, from Indonesia and Malaysia. Not all Muslims are Arab and neither are all Arabs Muslims. So I don’t think you can just look at someone and tell that their Muslims unless they are wearing a skullcap or a hijab or something like that.
shortstop
@SatanicPanic: So did I and so do I. But now we have the intertoobs where we can find our people, and more importantly, run our mouths so they can see how many of us are out here.
Corner Stone
@Botsplainer:
I’m thinking it would be even more fun to have some number of “muslims” who are NRA members raise absolute hell with the NRA about this range denying them their Allah given rights to shoot away the gay like any other good theologian member does. How can they practice their love for and worship of, the single most identifying thing that defines what it is to be American? Get on it, NRA!
John N
It feels like we’re on the verge of someone suggesting that maybe Muslims should be kept in some kind of special place, a camp of sorts, where we could keep tabs on them all the time. Who will finally be the one to suggest it? Santorum?
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@glocksman:
Can we pay Richard Thompson to go rent a gun there? And then proudly announce that he’s among the banned? She’d never expect that. Him being white and all.
schrodinger's cat
@John N: Steve King or may be Ted Cruz.
Steve Crickmore
And ’empricism’, is another victim of empiricism.
boatboy_srq
@Haydnseek: Unfair and uncalled-for.
Exactly what, do you think, would be the appropriate response to someone scared sh!tl3ss that their religious/philosophical displays present a problem in the public space, and/or that such is endangering a business or personal relationship? Ignore that fear and discomfort (and perpetuate the misconception)? Confirm it (i.e. be an Xtian Teabagger to his/her face)? Or be nice about it and reassure him/her that it isn’t a big deal to you?
Mustang Bobby
@schrodinger’s cat: Yes, I know; I was channeling my crazy uncle who tells me that you can spot a Muslim from a hundred yards. Hence my faux-code close “/mycrazyuncle.”
kindness
I’m never sure about stories sourced out of RawStory. Seems too Buzzfeed to me. I’ll read the stuff but I apply a large boulder of salt.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Tommy: They’re all loaded.
Since you can’t tell by just a visual inspection, that’s damn well how you need to treat them. Every gun is loaded (and I find with most of the people I know that all their guns ARE loaded, stupid fucks).
I store mine unloaded, but that is rare enough that you don’t need to concern yourself with that possibility.
It’s good to go to the range. Immerse yourself in the culture, they are interesting, strange, sometimes paranoid folks. Learn guns backwards and forwards. That way if you run into a gun and you don’t want it to be loaded, you’ll be able to load and/or unload the little deathbeast successfully.
You’ll learn what can and cannot be done with a firearm, and you will have to stop yourself from beating somebody unconscious when you hear some moron ask “but why didn’t the cops just shoot him in the leg?” Shit, if I was a good enough shot to hit a moving person in the leg on purpose, I’d have every Olympic gold medal for shooting sports since I learned how to shoot. Every single one.
It’s good stuff to know and I started going to ranges decades before I actually went and bought one.
Botsplainer
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Back in the summer, we were doing recreational scuba in Jamaica. One guy on the boat had some second tier gear but had strapped a big honkin’ dive knife to his leg – the blade on the thing had to be 6″ long.
Thing is, in diving, big, bulky things (like overlarge dive tools) negatively impact the recreational experience by getting in the way. I keep a tool handy, but it is small, surreptitiously mounted on my superlight BCD and titanium. If you don’t know what it is, you wouldn’t spot it (I keep it not for sharks, but instead for monofilament line – which is a bitch to spring loose from). Him? I guess he thought it made him look badass. Problem is that the kind of guy who brings a knife like that generally dives like an asshole and likes to pry stuff up and scratch initials in coral.
All I did was smirk and say “that’s a lot of knife” – he got the message and left it in the room the rest of the week.
Corner Stone
@John N:
Oh, I doubt it will get that far. A reasonable middle ground suggestion might emerge that would satisfy.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Tommy: They’re not called the Abrahamic religions for nothing. Jews, Christians, and Muslims share the same g*d with different names in each group. See also, People of the Book.
eldorado
@Tommy: they are always loaded. always. there is no situation where it is ok to think the gun is not loaded.
Haydnseek
@boatboy_srq: Of course you ignore it. It’s immaterial. You’re there on business. Act like it.
Patternmaker
I so want to punk these folks. I am a petite, whiter-than-white, non-threatening Muslim woman who does not wear hijab and does work in the firearms industry.
raven
@glocksman:
5. Wear ear protection. Gunfire can cause permanent hearing damage.
Two weeks till I get my VA hearing aid!
chopper
a bunch of arab christians need to start frequenting that gun range and drive the lady bonkers.
Amir Khalid
@Botsplainer:
Mr Khaled Akkawi sells a lot of guns, according to the story. I wonder how many of his customers are Christians anxious to defend themselves against the coming invasion of Muslim Ebola carriers from Mexico.
jibeaux
Lgf has a very moving post about some of those awful Pam Gellar NYC ads, and how they featured James Foley until the Foley family asked through counsel that they come down. Stay classy, Pammy. Anyway, what moved me was that the letter from the lawyer could’ve just said “cease and desist motherfucker”, but it explained that Foley lived and worked among Muslims for many years and that he respected them and their religion. Which is to say that the family of a man beheaded by Muslim extremist barbarians, who could be somewhat forgiven for harboring some animus, has a dramatically healthier worldview than Pam Gellar.
TR
@Steve Crickmore:
Looks like someone shot out one of its eyes.
KG
@Haydnseek: business is human interaction. if the other person is visibly concerned that something has threatened the deal, there is nothing wrong with being human and assuaging their fears/concerns. in fact, it’s probably better for business.
catclub
@schrodinger’s cat:
Actually, some do. The knot from prayer.
shortstop
@John N: My money’s on King (slightly more likely to be Steve, but Peter “I Hate ‘Terrorists’ But Fund the IRA” is a contender). Other possibilities include Roskam, Bachmann (for as long as she sticks around), Duncan, Ellmers, Shadegg or Franks.
gogiggs
@Corner Stone: Telling people about it, obviously.
Jay C
@jibeaux:
“Healthier worldview than Pam Geller” has to be about the lowest-imaginable bar to hurdle one can think of. I was appalled (but not at all surprised) that she was behind (more like the shill/front for) that disgusting ad campaign in NY. I’m guessing her sudden turnaround re Foley was more likely due to fear of a lawsuit and its attendant negative publicity (as if Pam thinks any publicity can be negative!) than the smarmy “Geller understands and feels intimately the pain” they are suffering. tripe given out by her lawyer.
Haydnseek
@KG: Quite possibly, if they broach the subject first. Otherwise, you risk making an assumption that might very well be wildly inaccurate. Not good for business, or anything else.
EthylEster
Empricism?
Apopka….a true symbol of Florida backwardness.
Corner Stone
@Haydnseek:
In 20+ years of professional business environments I have never had a single conversation about religion with a client, a customer or a colleague.
But that may be just me.
Corner Stone
@catclub:
If it’s knot from prayer then what’s it from?
schrodinger's cat
@Corner Stone: Me neither. I usually avoid the topic of religion even with close friends and/or relatives, unless they are the ones that bring it up.
I had a student who was a bit of crank, and would smell a Jewish conspiracy behind any and every innocuous thing, I would always manage to steer the conversation back to physics.
skerry
Two shootings at high schools today. One in NC, one in Louisville. At least one student hit at both schools.
Also, a HS band wanted to raise money through gun raffle in Louisiana. School board said no. Parents and students upset because they had already sold tickets.
Just another day in ‘Merica.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Corner Stone: I suspect it’s most people, but what do I know?
@EthylEster: One of the nicest men I know is from Apopka. Of course he’s a high level horse trainer, judge and course designer (he worked on the course at Beijing Olympics), so I suspect he’s not the norm.
Corner Stone
@gogiggs:
Just wondering how that conversation starts. Is it on the business card?
Client “Finally! Some really nice weather for a change. Down below 100, thank god.”
Me “I respect your right to believe in the deity of your choice but I’m an Open Atheist, so I feel the weather occurs due to an incredible set of complex and interrelated factors, some of which mankind and his actions are significantly contributing to, your invisible sky pilot notwithstanding.”
Client “Oh…ok.”
gnomedad
@chopper:
What if they convert between the cashier and the range?
Corner Stone
@skerry:
First time I read that I thought it said “Mecca”.
Everything went topsy-turvy there for a second or two.
srv
Heads should roll.
Trollhattan
@Tommy:
That’s profoundly weird. Have you uncovered a secret nest of gun-fondling Jehovah’s Witnesses? Amway salesmen?
catclub
@Corner Stone: from pressing you forehead against the floor repeatedly in prayer. It is considered a sign of devotion. I am no expert, but I read about it.
The Dangerman
I might be repeating someone else in this thread (to busy to check), but as a result of the Goleta Shooting in May, California might pass a bill allowing families to get guns away from other family members. Seems like a no brainer to me.
Of course, the Rightwing (and Fox) have lost their shit over it:
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2014/09/30/california-families-can-ask-judges-to-seize-relatives-guns-under-bill-facing/
Last day to pass the bill is today.
Mnemosyne
@Trollhattan:
I think he just hangs around with a lot of white people in the Midwest. My tribe has strange customs, and one of them is that they can’t be convinced that shooting a gun isn’t the most fun in the entire world.
Roger Moore
@schrodinger’s cat:
The kind of person who wants a blanket anti-Muslim policy isn’t going to let little things like facts and evidence interfere with their hate. They’ll believe they can spot a Muslim by appearance and to hell with any libtard who contradicts them.
Roger Moore
@John N:
At the very least, we could start out by requiring them to wear a distinguishing mark on their person, like a crescent moon and star, at all times. The camps can come later.
Gin & Tonic
@catclub: Whoosh!
Trollhattan
@Mnemosyne:
Ooooh, they’re baby golfers! [lightbulb fires over head]
Roger Moore
@shortstop:
You left out Gohmert.
Trollhattan
@Roger Moore:
Everybody lurves armbands.
Amir Khalid
@Roger Moore:
I seem to recall that most of these people can’t tell between a Sikh man in a turban and a Muslim man. In fact, it is devout Sikh men who wear turbans every day. Few Muslim men do that, unless they are clergymen.
Another Holocene Human
@Botsplainer: A bunch of South and Southeast Asians (family groups) are buying everything in Florida. Probably good business because without income tax or intangible property tax (thanks, JEB!) only real estate transfers get scrutinized. Still, you need an appetite for risk … lotta gas stations and motels were suffering after the 2008 recession, and Pink Slip Rick didn’t exactly make the situation any better.
Eric U.
@John N: You mean Michelle Malkin’s 2004 opus, “In defense of internment”?
Brendan in NC
@srv: Yup. The heads of every single Republican who voted to shrink the Secret Service’s budget since Obama got into office. After they beef up the number of Secret Service agents, then we can deal with individual agents that caused this.
Trollhattan
@Amir Khalid:
Exactly right. We have an open case in the area of two elderly Sikh gentlemen gunned down while on a walk during daylight. The only clue is a pickup truck leaving the area a short time afterwards. Nobody believes it was a “gang drive-by.”
Corner Stone
@Trollhattan:
Are there any suspects other than Sen Scott Brown?
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Roger Moore: Among the reasons I’d love to see Richard Thompson blow her mind. He’d need one of his off stage ball caps as opposed to the stage beret, of course. But she’s never think he looks Muslim, because he’s an old white guy in a ball cap. He’s not “old,” but what’s left of his hair and his beard are grey.
Another Holocene Human
From South Carolina to Florida, and west to Alabama, this is country where if you own stuff, you’re already in a class above the peasants, and there are a lot of peasants. (The citizens are the peasants. The migrant workers are all kinds of subterranean levels below that, with the lowest rung being unskilled farm workers who don’t speak English or Spanish and come from countries in the midst of civil war, civil unrest, or other forms of chaos that won’t lift a finger to protect their citizens if they, say, end up locked on a farm, their papers seized, and their wages stolen in some sort of slavery/peonage scheme.)
The problem is that despite federal transfer programs the peasants are broke, so you’re a country squire of a shithole. Not sure why that’s so appealing but this is why these blokes come off so shady, they advertise in their home country that they’re successful American businessmen to get a wife, then she shows up and finds out her life is going to be cleaning motel rooms because they can’t even afford the much-abused, minimum wage motel maids.
Then there’s the other issues of doing business with family. This can be financially beneficial (banks are pretty stingy and give bad terms to small business loans) but sometimes family will do you wrong. Some family here in Gainesville bought all the KFCs and gave them to, I don’t know, fuck-up cousins or nephews or something. They proceeded to run them all out of business, one by one. One of the main issues was not making the chicken properly. This is the South. Don’t mess with the chicken. They also didn’t maintain the properties properly and eventually had to sell at a loss and the buildings were demolished. I think they have one left, more in suburban territory so I guess some teens with no flavor discernment and strong stomachs must be keeping them in business. All the prime, high traffic locations are long gone.
Another Holocene Human
Don’t want to sound too hard on the foreign-born entrepreneurs because frankly around here I’ve seen business owners of every race and background* be utter shits to their employees. There’s literally nothing stopping them. The few who aren’t horrible shits are bucking the tide.
*including shady, law-breaking scumbags from NY/NJ area, they must know the law is real slow to address anything a “job creator” does here in Floriduhhh, but no worries, plenty of home-grown crackers are big time tax cheats and treat workers like shit
Paul in KY
@glocksman: In the military, all the range officers wear sidearms. That’s not to look cool, it’s to shoot your ass if you look like you might be shooting somewhere other than down range.
Paul in KY
@Corner Stone: If the NRA finds out, they’ll soon be ex-NRA members.
Another Holocene Human
Okay, just want to put in a disclaimer that the urbanized region south of Central Florida (Tampa/Orlando/Cocoa Beach) is for the most part–I’d say the coastal part and not the agricultural area because hello, Florida–is a totally different world with a functional economy and a functional county gov’t that takes on most of the roles that state government should but doesn’t. As a result, big business spends millions to lobby the parliament of yokels in Tallahassee to preempt local government, preempt local government, preempt local government to prevent any sort of realistic check on their anti-competitive and anti-consumer practices, polluting and other externalities, and generally to stop anything that would make people’s lives better.
Paul in KY
@Jay C: I think Ted Bundy had a healthier world view than Pam Gellar.
SatanicPanic
California just eliminated disparity in cocaine vs crack sentencing.
We are the champions, my friends…
scav
@The Dangerman: Familial controls backed are about parents contolling their legally adult daughters’ access to health insurance and birth control, not about access to all the weaponry, all the time!
Right?
But but, What if your kid ‘r cousin buys a little rug!?. One of those strange, seen north of the Texas border style rugs abandoned by Ebola trrrrists with cantaloup sized prayer knots!! And suddenly his beard is all wrong Ahhhhh!! Seize all the guns!
DissidentFish
@schrodinger’s cat: Brown paper bag test + the old national socialist “glance down the pants”. Not that this won’t keep a lot of US born dark-skinned Christians out but that is more of a feature than a bug.
Omnes Omnibus
@Paul in KY: That was not my experience as an army officer.
Another Holocene Human
@The Dangerman:
That’ll go over like a fart in church, about as non-controversial as taking a driver’s license away from someone who’s no longer physically or mentally capable. 70 and up have as many or more accidents than 16 year old males.
But oh no, we can’t have mixed zoning, basic needs within walking distance, long walk light cycles, and dense, decent public transit. (A lot of seniors refuse to take paratransit, and I don’t blame them–it’s usually a van that is uncomfortable to ride in, and you have to go around in circles as they pick up and drop off other clients, and the drivers are poorly paid so there’s a lot of turnover and no doubt some of them can be surly.)
My great uncle was driving an SUV around his Oklahoma town WHILE BLIND. WTF.
My great grandmother, bless her heart, got her driver’s license renewed WITH CATARACTS. She was, to be fair, in good physical shape otherwise and apparently impressed the instructor, because unlike many states they did do a road test, by her mastery of the stick. HOWEVER, IL at the time did not require 10 year eye exams. Every state should require these. People can start losing vision at any time in their life for a lot of different reasons. Very irresponsible.
Of course as family we knew this but unless the laws change, as far as I know only a few states have changed their laws, adult children can’t force adult parents to give up their license.
The Other Chuck
@SatanicPanic:
And amazingly enough, did it by not cracking (heh) down harder on powdered coke, but raising the bar for crack. Crack really is wack, but the war on drugs is just brutal and stupid.
Trollhattan
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
IIRC he’s a Sufi? Ironically, ISIL would execute him for being a blasphemer and rednecks would execute him for bein’ mooslim. Some days you just can’t win.
RT may have the best stage patter of any musician I’ve seen. He’ll finish a typical RT song drenched in death, dispair and desertion, and within a minute have the audience laughing hysterically. One of a kind.
Another Holocene Human
@SatanicPanic: and we are the losers …
http://www.andrewdstine.com/blog/2013/06/marijuana-arrests-in-palm-beach-county/
Mnemosyne
@Another Holocene Human:
As any impoverished aristocrat could tell you, it’s better to be the squire of a shithole than just another peasant.
Also, your story about incompetent family members reminds me of our family story where my grandfather’s uncle started a bank (in the pre-FDIC days) and then scarpered back to Italy with the proceeds, leaving the rest of the family holding the bag. It was apparently quite the learning experience for my grandfather.
Paul in KY
@Omnes Omnibus: It was that way when I trained at Fort Knox, circa 1979 or so. Using M-16s that day.
Paul in KY
@Omnes Omnibus: Maybe they never let you know why they wore them ;-)
Violet
@Another Holocene Human: Self-driving vehicles cannot get here fast enough for me. I would love to leave the driving to a computer.
SatanicPanic
@Another Holocene Human: Yikes, that’s pretty terrible
Another Holocene Human
@The Other Chuck: You know what kills me? 150 years ago heroin and coke used to be legal. The King of England was addicted to laudanum. In fact opium and cocaine became illegal in the US following a law intended to keep those drugs as well as mercury out of over the counter medicines marketed to children. Btw, the OTC industry still shills a lot of shady shit as children’s medicines and the FDC has to struggle to rein them in.
I believe it was called the Pure Food and Drug Act. Great intentions, pro-consumer, but somehow it got twisted into criminalizing recreational (or self medicating) drug use by adults. WTF.
Another irony, that ephedra stuff (ma huang, mormon tea, etc) that was being sold as a weight loss remedy and to truckers as herbal meth under the DSHEA which was IIRC Harkin and Hatch (check out this scumbag raving about DSHEA).
You think that the FDA is supposed to test everything put in our food and medicines to make sure it’s safe and we don’t get cancer or liver disease. Well, DSHEA does an end run around it and lets you put whatever fucking plant parts in a bottle, label it (researchers have found the label rarely matches the species inside) and make wild, ridiculous health claims with no regulation other than a “black box” that informs you that it isn’t FDA vetted. That’s okay, the other side of the marketing scheme is to convince the rubes that the FDA is corrupt, 0wned by big pharma, etc.
DSHEA does have a rule about taking an unsafe herb off the market. Well, over a dozen people died taking ephreda (it’s cheap and pharmacologically active, so consumers were getting the real thing, unlike echinacea or saw palmetto or whatever) for weight loss! So FDA tried to pull it off the shelves! Well, not so fast, buckeroo!
FDA was totally unable to stop sales of an herb that literally was killing people.
You know who banned it? DEA. The motherfucking DEA. They said it could be used to make meth (just like Sudafed, pretty much the same shit chemically). And when DEA banned it, they got shit down.
Now how fucked up is it that it’s impossible to pull something off the market for being dangerous, but easy to pull something off because somebody might get high?
Another Holocene Human
In case you are desperate to try the ephreda miracle, here’s the truth — it’s very good at clearing out your sinuses because it dries up mucus membranes (warning: includes genital areas). It’s also a powerful CNS stimulant, and this is why it contributes to very moderate weight loss in already fit people but, research has shown, doesn’t induce weight loss in the obese population who was trying to use it for such. Also, it can cause loss of sleep (which is why truckers were taking it–of course, not sleeping does not mean you’re not impaired), which for obese people can actually cause them to gain weight because of sleep’s impact on metabolic health. As you’ve probably guessed, ephreda kills because a not insignificant portion of the population on the drug will suffer heart attacks.
SatanicPanic
@Another Holocene Human: My step grandpa lost his license and just kept on driving, often drunk and probably suffering from dementia. It took a visit from the Grim Reaper to get him off the road. It was a miracle he never killed anyone.
Another Holocene Human
@Violet: It’s coming in pieces. Some cars already will parallel park for you and they’re researching a cruise control that will automatically back off the bumper of other vehicles.
It turns out the Google self driving demo had more issues than they revealed initially, surprise, surprise.
Even some of the computer assistance we provide live drivers has issues, like bad GPS maps issued to truckers which have been factors in a lot of accidents in the last decade.
Another Holocene Human
@SatanicPanic: Truly. Wow.
I can understand why they don’t want to give up, though. Our 50s Pleasantville dreamscape is a hellscape of being trapped in the house if you don’t have a car you can drive.
Violet
@Another Holocene Human: I saw a headline that one of the car companies thinks they’ll have self-driving cars by 2020. I might have misread it since I only saw the headline, but that kind of caught my eye.
As the population ages, self-driving vehicles will enable a lot of seniors to stay in their own homes for longer. That’s a good thing.
Omnes Omnibus
@Paul in KY: I have been a range officer. If the range was being run while we were in the field I would have had my M-16 or .45 with me. If the range was being run while in garrison, I was unarmed. (Of course, these ranges were run by and for my own battalion rather than a basic training environment.)
Chris
@Corner Stone:
I foresee a ton of Jews, Maronites, Hindus and black people of all religions being caught up in that net, while any Muslim with a shave and a light skin tone passes through untroubled.
(Well, not *really*. I doubt anyone but prejudiced white Real Americans go there).
SatanicPanic
@Another Holocene Human: Yeah, he was 90 something and in Orange County, CA. He was in decent shape, but walking is just not an option. We really messed up building the suburbs the way we did.
Bill Arnold
@Violet:
I’ve seen this too, and believe that it will be technically possible. How do we prevent the car companies from quickly getting sued into bankruptcy? The argument would be that nearly all accidents are mostly their fault, right? (Lawyers, are there any good speculative discussions about self-driving cars in the legal press?)
lucslawyer
A little off topic…WCAU in Philadelphia is reporting a 2 year-old Delaware boy shot himself in the head with a gun he found at home.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Corner Stone: You are lucky. I do not EVER discuss such things, but I have had prospective clients, prospective employees, and co-workers bring that shit up. I have had job applicants actually ask if we gave “special benefits to Christians”, which makes me wonder what the fuck is going on out there that they would feel that was an appropriate/safe question to ask.
The answer to all save the applicants was “don’t go there, I’m not discussing it.” The applicants was a simple “no”, followed by an instant trip to the roundfile, because anyone who even asks a question like that is going to be trouble.
Calouste
@Violet: I’ll believe self-driving cars are near when they start test driving them somewhere else than places with 364 days of sunshine a year, which is pretty much where they are limited to now.
Calouste
@Bill Arnold:
Release the cars in sane parts of the world only, i.e. not in America.
Shortstop
OT, why would three V-22 Ospreys be flying over my house?
Omnes Omnibus
@Shortstop: Something to do with Agenda 21.
flukebucket
More Obamacare drama?
How many more judges get to fuck with Obamacare until we can assume it is good to go?
Another Holocene Human
@kindness: Rawstory is a low rent reblogger, kind of like a low rent NY Daily News, but the comments haven’t been totally taken over by ‘baggers, in fact Rawstory pays mods to nuke TOS-violators and quickly, so that is why I keep coming back despite grammatical/spelling/factual errors in many of the stories.
NYDN has some dedicated liberal commenters who keep fighting the suburban Klan Keyboard Kommadoes but sadly the paper is pretty neglectful and they run riot on every article with a black or latino perp and a white or white-ish victim. (Cue comments on articles with white perps, “Where are JACK_THE_RIPPER and WHITEPOWER68? They were so prolific on that other article today. It couldn’t be the race of the perpetrator–could it?”) RawStory has replaced NYDN for me lately.
Trollhattan
@Shortstop:
First, be thankful they’re not dropping out of it.
Dunno, where be house?
Another Holocene Human
@Tommy:
They’re threatened and confused by your greater intelligence and self-control due to not systemically poisoning yourself with lead (Pb) dust as an adult.
This is like that turning point in a horror movie, Tommy, don’t go, don’t gooooo there…..
Shortstop
@Trollhattan: Chicago lakefront, north side. They came over the lake from the southwest, flying super low.
Another Holocene Human
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Sounds like a Rob Liefeld character.
Botsplainer
@Another Holocene Human:
I like Raw Story about 85% of the time when they aren’t doing “John Oliver slams”, “Bill Maher slams”, “Jon Stewart slams” pundit stenographer confirmation bias bullshit.
Their mobile site sucks, though, but not quite as bad as TPM (which doesn’t even give me a choice to see comments).
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Another Holocene Human: Yah – all true – but Raw Story has TBogg.
Another Holocene Human
@Tommy: When my wife was in sales and dealing with rural clients here in North Central Florida she started hearing “jew” used as a verb a LOT. It was really wearing her down so she started calling people on it and they were all “You’re a good one” so finally she hit on using their religion as a verb and that finally shut some of them up (temporarily, I’m sure). Instead of just saying “christian” she said “evangelical fundamentalist protestant”. I think it worked because it made them feel stupid.
Another Holocene Human
The “allahu akbar” ringtone sounds like the old joke about the uptight woman who complains that young men were whistling dirty tunes by her window.
Another Holocene Human
@Botsplainer: I think recently they haven’t used “destroys” “slams” as much because people were making fun of that so hard. But other sites — mediate, crooks and liars, and of course TPM — are still using misleading headlines.
Another Holocene Human
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Holee fuck.
My guess is Christian academy education, raised in and around the church. Church organizations are absolutely allowed to discriminate on basis of religion and given their lack of secular education, they don’t realize that religious preference is COMPLETELY AGAINST FEDERAL LAW in any workplace that can’t shroud itself under ministerial exemptions.
OTOH, the Catholic Church is lobbying hard to cover more and more and more employees of even vaguely religiously-affiliated non-profits under ministerial exemption, making their jobs worse than at-will because in at-will you’re still covered by the CRA!!
This is why I donate to AU and ACLU. These people scare the fuck out of me.
shortstop
@Trollhattan: Hmmm, apparently they’re used as support for Marine One, which I didn’t know despite having lived in the middle of its favored Chicago flight path for the past six years. Seems they might have chosen something less, as you say, droppy for one of the most densely populated places in the country….THANKS, OBUMMER!
Trollhattan
@Shortstop:
It’s here–the Obummer-Rahm revolution, Chicago-style(tm). Run!
Or, I have no bloody idea and have never seen one, much less three. Who flys them, the Marines?
ETA, posted then saw yours–GMTA.
Just because we’re paranoid, doesn’t mean Obummer isn’t after our stuff.
shortstop
@Trollhattan: Marines, yes. Of course I had no idea what I was looking at, but my beloved fellow infielder is quite reliable on this stuff. Then I looked around and found that these creepy things are part of the Imperial Tyrant’s entourage.
Sarcasm aside, I will really miss having Marine One zip back and forth over mah house, often low enough that I sometimes send it casual waves from the sidewalk like the starfucker I am. True story: our hound normally hates helicopters, but Marine One — huge, loud, scary — makes her look up and wag her tail. Good Dem dog.
NotMax
@Another Holocene Human
One cannot really fault the FDA for not regulating something(s) which, by law, they are not permitted to to regulate. Specifically most herbs, which are classed as dietary supplements, so long as products containing them are not marketed as medicines.
Medicines containing ephedrine were the only ones really effective against my own sinus problems or hay fever when they cropped up., and I sorely (pun intended) miss them. The ones on the market today, with pseudo-ephedrine, just are nowhere near as effective nor as long lasting.
Oh, and heroin has not yet been around for 150 years. The Bayer company came up with the brand name Heroin and began marketing it in the late 1890s (roughly some 25 years after it had first been synthesized (discovered) by a chemist in London).
Violet
@Another Holocene Human: A relative’s husband is a doctor. After medical school and residency he took a job in a small city. The first question they were both asked anywhere–grocery store, school with the kids, etc.–was “What church do you go to?” He had people refuse to become his patient because he didn’t belong to a church.
shortstop
@Violet: Presumably they would have also refused if he went to the wrong church. I don’t know about anybody else, but the last thing I’d want to see in church is the face of a person who’s seen me naked recently, knows how much I weigh and is not sleeping on the other side of my bed.
boatboy_srq
@Haydnseek: And not doing so, when your client is clearly distressed, and trying to put your client at ease, makes you an entitled clueless white male. Got it.
lol
@Bill Arnold:
Definitely not by 2020 but 2030 I could see happening.
I suspect early self-driving cars are going to be *too* cautious. They’re going to get stuck trying to make left turns at busy intersections without lights. They’re going to go slow in inclement weather. They’re not going to realize that police officer is waving for them to go through an intersection with a red light.
Directly cause accidents? No. Inspire impatient people behind them to drive around them and cause accidents that way? Yes.
And initially, they’re still going to need someone behind the wheel to take over for situations it can’t handle.
Early on, it’s going to be great for highway driving – road trips and commuting. The driver will have to take over in the city I’m guessing but that eliminates a lot of the drudgery driving.
The “killer app” is when they replace cabbies. Self-driving electric cars that are on call 24/7, automatically heads for a station for charging or maintenance. Not driven by racist assholes. Will always take you to your destination, regardless of neighborhood. Isn’t talking on the phone constantly. Takes the best route. There’s a lot to like.
lol
@Violet:
Let me guess, those same people also complaint they “can’t find a doctor because of Obamacare”?
Violet
@shortstop: I’m sure they would have refused to see him if they didn’t think he went to an appropriate religious worship place. Whatever that might be in their minds.
The Other Chuck
@lol:
In order to pull that off, it’s going to need traffic conditions updated on a real-time basis per block. Downtown traffic is seriously chaotic: when there’s a delivery truck double-parked, you don’t hear about it on the traffic report.
Routing around transient bottlenecks is probably one of the easier problems to solve if there’s a “smart traffic grid”, but I wonder just as much as you how it’s going to deal with the adaptivity required just to deal with the exceptions on a single street or intersection. Openworld is going on as I type, and lo and behold, there are traffic cops everywhere.
Botsplainer
@Another Holocene Human:
There was something particularly egregious on RS lately featuring the wisdom of Russell Brand, and I called it out.
I might as well have been skull-fucking a Golden Retriever puppy based on the responses I got at that moment.
shortstop
@Violet: Sometimes the smallest variations create the biggest chasms. My parents were transferred to Nashville in the 1960s after having lived in relatively free-thinking, free-love (I threw that last bit in for more color) St. Louis.
They had never lived anyplace where “What church do you go to?” was considered one of the first, or any, things to ask new acquaintances, and they found the whole thing gobsmacking. Apparently there were two families on the block who never spoke because one of them attended Freaky Fundamentalist Church #1 and the other Freaky Fundamentalist Church #2. These churches were indistinguishable to normal people but had some sort of minuscule doctrinal difference.
catclub
@lol:
Lol indeed. If it can be programmed to take the best route, it can also be programmed to take the most revenue enhancing route. Now which would the owner be interested in??
Svensker
@schrodinger’s cat:
There’s a simple solution for that…
Svensker
Also, too, doesn’t this violate Muslims’ 2nd Amendment rights? ! ? ! ?
Roger Moore
@The Other Chuck:
But Google already hears about it because people’s phones start moving slower in that area, and they’re reporting their speed back to headquarters. If everyone had self-driving cars, that kind of information would be even easier to gather.
Just One More Canuck
@shortstop: People’s Front of Judea vs Judean People’s Front
KithKanan
@Just One More Canuck: Splitters.
Matt McIrvin
It’s a civil rights offense against non-Muslims.
glocksman
@Matt McIrvin:
It is, and I await the first Muslim who is denied because of his religion filing a civil rights lawsuit that bankrupts the range owner.
I make no bones about being generally progun*, but this is just discrimination based on creed.
AFAIC, I’d love to see the shop owner in a soup kitchen line run by a Muslim charity after the bankruptcy.
*I part company with most of them when it comes to expanded background checks.
Ruckus
@shortstop:
Once owned a home with couple from India next door. A Pakistani couple was going to by the house next to them and backed out when they found out about the Indian couple. They did however purchase two doors down. Thought that was rather sad, they needed a one house buffer. Especially as this was CA with narrow lots and houses 6 ft from each other. Old prejudices die hard no matter who holds them.
DonIvo
Folks! Let’s switch “real” guns with “toy” ones! This way no one gets hurt!
Olivier
Wow – it’s almost like restricting access to handguns saves lives.
Strange, that.
Paul in KY
@Omnes Omnibus: Understand, sir. I was at a type of basic training range (was in ROTC at time) & they don’t know who the Hell is going to show up & thus they are more ready for freaky stuff going down.
Paul in KY
@Shortstop: Must be in Dauntless Clan…
Paul in KY
@lol: I don’t see how a 1st generation self-driving car is going to be able to drive on same roads as populated with crazy non-computer drivers. You raised some good points there.
Seems like there would have to be roads (or lanes) only the self-drivers were allowed to use.
Sondra
This article is an example of unintentional almost perfect irony. A man with an islamic name owns the largest gun shop and shooting ranges in his area in Florida and describes himself as “risk averse”. Huh?
Therefore, he has banned from his business, lone white men from Florida because too many of them come to his ranges to commit suicide.
There are no agencies, either State or Federal, which track gun range suicides. Yet there have been 11 here in Florida. I’m guessing that any legislation to cover this loophole would meet with immense opposition from the NRA.
But Mr. Akkawi is going to racially profile lone white men because they have been the ones interferring with his ability to run his business and who have cost him the most in liabilities after they kill themselves at his shops with his rental guns.
Apparently they are not only so depressed that they feel suicidal, but they are also too cheap to actually buy the damn gun – they just rent it. Makes a sort of sense if you understand that they only want to use it once I guess.
BubbaDave
@Sondra:
If I shoot myself with my own gun then they will take it as evidence. And impound it. Thereby falsely imprisoning it and violating its [genuflects] Second Amendment [rises] rights. Not while I’m ali… Well, anyway, just no! FREEEEEEGUN! DON’T TREAD ON MAH GUNZ!
Paul in KY
@Sondra: Also, these guys must be neat freaks, as they don’t want to make a mess at their house. Neat till the end!