Republicans and libertarians claim to hate big government, but they actually love it when it is in your uterus:
A new Alabama regulation, the most radical parental consent law in the country, puts minors seeking abortions virtually on trial, appoints a guardian for their fetus, and could drag family, friends, and acquaintances into court. The law, currently under challenge by the ACLU, went into effect on July 1. It allows the court to appoint the embryo or fetus a “guardian ad litem,” which is a person, usually a lawyer, tasked with advocating for the embryo’s interests in court. It also requires that the district attorney appear to represent the interests of the state — which the law explicitly says are “to protect unborn life.” And the DA can call the young woman’s friends, family members, teachers or employers as witnesses if he deems it necessary.
Are all DA’s referred to as “he,” even if they are female? Serious question.
chopper
wait, what? WTF?
chopper
this isn’t the onion?
Wag
@chopper:
No f***ing allowed. This is Alabama we’re talking about
@chopper:
Unfortunately no
Wag
@chopper:
And if there is f***ing going on, there had damn well better be some serious consequences
wuzzat
Remind me: When did Protestants decide that the problem with the Catholic stance on birth control is that it’s too liberal?
Wag
@wuzzat:
I don’t know, but the scary thing is that they thought Pope JP II and Cardinal Ratzfucker were too liberal. Just imagine how they feel about Francis.
Omnes Omnibus
When I was first learning grammar, he was the default if one did not know gender. “S/he” and “he or she” are comparatively new constructs. My personal practice is to alternate “he” and “she” in my legal writings.
Baud
Uber libertarian Rand Paul:
Bobby B.
I can walk right up to the druggist and say “Harry, I want you sell me a condom, in fact I think I’ll have a French Tickler because I am a PROTESTANT!”
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Libertarian, huh? States’ rightist sounds more likely.
kindness
The idea the Right stands for ‘freedom’ is a con job. They don’t want freedom. They loves them some control, especially if religion is involved.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
“My client maintains his innocence. She has an airtight alibi.”
.
.
Could work.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: I try to stay consistent. I do the alternating with things like ” the law says that a person should only be held to account for this crime (if he is/if she is…)”. That kind of thing. I always thought that male judges wouldn’t give a fuck, but female judges might – on the margins on a brief.
ETA: Was some cynicism involved? Yes. Litigation.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: I just use “they.”
jibeaux
@Baud: I don’t understand libertarianism either in theory or reality, although for people who actually advocate an expansive view of personal liberty, I can at least see the appeal and some consistency. The appeal of a man who, in the name of freedom, is going to make your childbearing decisions for you but free you from the crushing clutches of meat inspections is a real headscratcher, though.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Baud: That’s quite comical. Thank you. I tend to use s/he.
As to the thread topic, will one of you kind commenters please put me out of my misery? kthxbai.
Baud
@jibeaux:
Those people are liberals. Libertarians advocate a limited view of government, which they equate on a 1:1 ratio with personal liberty.
dance around in your bones
I’ve seen this scene about a bazillion times (perhaps I exaggerate a tad) because I loved Monty Python.
Ok, this has been said about a bazillion times before – but Repubs, Fundies and etc seem to have a kind of fetish about embryos, and as soon as the baby is born they just kinda lose their eyes and ears and the compassion they never had to begin with.
Believe me, as a woman, the pregnancy thing is A BIG FUCKING DEAL. You don’t enter into it lightly.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: I cannot bring myself to use that grammatical crime. One can’t always phrase things in the plural – not without sounding awkward.
Baud
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Can’t stand s/he. In a pinch, I’ll use he or she.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Baud: I don’t much like it either, but it’s sort of the protocol here. Unless there’s a specific subject with an actual gender, of course. And I’m constitutionally incapable of using “they” unless it’s an actual plural.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Exactly.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
I kid. I don’t do that (on purpose). I try to write around, change to plural, repeat the noun, or do some other trick. It can be a pain sometimes.
ETA: I will use “his or her” as long as it’s in a situation where I don’t have to use it repeatedly.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): And that is why I alternate for work purposes. I have done it by sentence, by paragraph, and by argument.
Baud
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Makes you wonder why his/er never caught on.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Baud:
Steeplejack
Why in the fuck do we hear about these laws only after they have gone into effect?! Why do I never seem to read stories that say, “A bill introduced in the legislature by Republicans would [do bad stuff]. Democrats, the ACLU and [whoever] have mobilized to oppose it.”
Exaggerating slightly for rhetorical effect, but seriously. I don’t think I am exceptionally clueless or uninformed, but how do we keep getting blind-sided by stuff like this? Especially in this time of (allegedly) universal Internet coverage of everything. Four hundred people tweet a Lindsay Lohan side-boob sighting within seconds, but no one notices that idiots in the state legislature are wrecking the country?
SiubhanDuinne
Yeah, pretty much.
http://www.alabamaprosecutor.com/DAList.aspx
Omnes Omnibus
Gawd. We have made this a “he or she” vs. “s/he” discussion. Perhaps we should shut up. Or contribute to the topic.
Baud
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
True enough. Damn the English for not inventing a gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun. ETA: That can be used with people.
.
.
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I also blame Obama.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Cole instigated it.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ll just repair to my room with an apology. I’ll note however, that I initially requested to be put out of my misery with regard to the post topic.
Steeplejack
@Omnes Omnibus:
Hey, what can you do? It’s a “s/he said, s/he said” situation.
JGabriel
Cosmopolitan:
It’s always, always, the unborn with these people — never a thought for the undead. Or even the living, really.
Baud
@JGabriel:
Not true. They think of the undead all the time. They even elected one vice-president.
Gustopher
On an oddly related note, the national anthem of Bosnia and Herzegovina is an orchestral version of the chorus to “Every Sperm Is Sacred”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFaX_2Ul48w
Violet
Who’s going to be the first person to request some form of Alabama state identification for their unborn child? Or some other type of thing a person can do but a fetus can’t. Because this law is challenging the very concept of personhood. I hope someone takes it on. Wouldn’t an ID require a birth date? The case would need something like that in it.
Baud
@Violet:
Gun permit.
jibeaux
@Baud: mostly, yes. But there are the “legalize all the drugs, repeal all the helmet laws” types that are not interested in public policy implications because of that b & w view, whereas liberals tend to see more sides.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Fuck yeah, let’s push this all on Cole. He did ask.
Violet
@Baud: Exactly. That’s the thing. Someone needs to try to get a gun permit for their fetus. And then they can’t put the birthdate on the permit. So then they sue.
Mike J
@Omnes Omnibus:
Good enough for Shakespeare.
Baud
@jibeaux:
Liberals see so many sides, everything looks like circles. Especially firing squads.
It’s our Achilles heel.
srv
White man to the rescue:
Maddow taught me that everything was just peachy up to 2011, right?
everbluegreen
@jibeaux: The appeal of a man who, in the name of freedom, is going to make your childbearing decisions for you but free you from the crushing clutches of meat inspections
Thank you, I needed a laugh after learning about this horrific law.
Baud
@srv:
“An intruder has been spotted running towards the White House? We’ll be there between 9 and 6 on Tuesday to take care of it.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike J: I can be a purist at times. Will took some liberties. In any case, for professional purposes, I have found that my random alteration seems to work well. YMMV.
Botsplainer
Christ, the cat just followed me and the dog on our nightly walk, six-tenths of a. mile away, then back. He’s really old and moving slow – he’s 15 and trudging up the middle of the street.
He’s getting scritches and a brushing and fresh food when we get home.
Omnes Omnibus
@srv: Idiot or trolling. Your choice.
jonas
I am completely confident that the state of Alabama devotes these kinds of exceptional resources to the rights of *born* children, you know, nutrition, child care, education, healthcare, etc., regardless of race or income. Right…….right?
*crickets chirping*
Luthe
If a woman registers herself as a corporation (because corporations are people), can she argue that the state is violating her right to just compensation for taking her property (her body)? By forcing her to continue the pregnancy, they are curtailing her right to use her property as she sees fit *and* giving that property away to someone else (the fetus).
/somewhat specious argument
wuzzat
@Wag:
They only thought JPII was too liberal because he tried to make nice with the Jews instead of constantly praying for their conversion like a good Christian should. I don’t personally know anyone who thought Ratfucker was too liberal. Too much of a fish-head with the Latin and the “other denominations are more like Christian-themed social clubs” and the froynlaven, sure, but liberal? Not so much. (I think the Hitlerjugend thing was actually a point in his favor as far as certain “JPII was too liberal” factions were concerned.) However, since he never flat-out blamed a natural or man-made disaster on gays and pagans, I’m sure he was a dfh to some.
I’m sure that Politico will find a way to blame Pope Francis for his own assassination.
Frankensteinbeck
@wuzzat:
When the federal government stopped them from officially segregating blacks. Before then, the more puritan American protestants were against abortion because ‘you play, you pay’, but it wasn’t an issue. When you hear these folks go on about baby killing, but they show no interest at all in living children, then you should ask yourself what’s really making them angry that they can’t say out loud.
In fact, you should do this about all political issues. If they say they’re against the deficit, but they only care sometimes, look at when they do care and figure out what they really mean but can’t say.
JaneE
Maybe pregnant women could request a welfare allotment for the fetus in addition to any benefits they are entitled to for themselves. Why should they have to wait for the child to be born in order to collect a child benefit?
Omnes Omnibus
@Frankensteinbeck:
The churches that can from the Puritans are the UCC, the Unitarians, and the Congregationalists (In some places the became Methodists because that was the closest thing available). Step off of the Puritans. It was the the Scots Presbyterians brought all the weird. I do like their whisky though.
dance around in your bones
@Botsplainer:
Awww –
I’ve had cats that liked to go on ‘walks’ too – it’s a bit rare but very cool (for me – i have no idea what the cat was thinking, I NEVER do) but it’s pretty cool when they accompany you on a walk – with a DOG fer chrissakes!
Lovekitty :)
John Revolta
What kills me is that none of these right-to-life fucks can ever explain to me just what the fuck we’d be doing with these extra 50 million fuckers right now if they hadn’t been aborted??
Anybody? AquaBuddha?
Ruckus
@Steeplejack:
Some of this crap is done on the QT at the last minute so as to not raise any notice or at least the most minimal notice possible. They know it’s shit law, they are pretty sure it will be overthrown, but there is always the chance they will get their wishes. And with enough assaults on that piece of parchment they love to act like they’ve read or even less likely understood some may get through. Can’t be a conservative if you can’t conserve shit. So they are trying to conserve, wait what is it, pre-life(they can’t tell the difference between an e and an o), insanity, the ability to legally call women sluts……. Need I go on?
Ruckus
@John Revolta:
Or how they came up with the number 50 million. Or, let’s face it, any facts at all.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
Puritans weren’t weird? That’s a new one on me.
Violet
@Luthe: Is there precedent for a person registering themselves as a corporation because corporations are people. Does it not work the other way–that people are corporations? Lawyers out there–do you know?
Shortstop
@JGabriel: That made me laugh quite hard. And dog knows this thread needed the color.
John Revolta
@Ruckus: I dunno. I presume there are some statistics kept on legal abortions. Then again they could just as easily be pulling numbers out of their assholes. For a change.
Luthe
@Ruckus: Puritans get slammed as being prudes all the time, but they really weren’t. For example, premarital sex was A-OK, so long as the couple was betrothed. In fact, sex within marriage was considered a sacred duty and wives could take their husbands to court if they weren’t getting some on the regular.
Real Puritans wouldn’t be caught dead at a purity ball.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ruckus: Actually, aside from believing that we we all screwed, the Puritans thought that education was important and so was free will. They also figured that most of us would fuck it up. They actually were okay with sexual activity as long as the couple got married if a child was on the way. they were a lot better in many ways than they have been portrayed.
Tenar Darell
@Steeplejack: Not sure if you’re serious, but if you are here’s a truth? There are too many of them, and they’re all different and in multiple states at different times, and most passed post 2010 state legislatures takeovers. Basically ACLU, Planned Parenthood and NARAL are being overwhelmed by paper in the past 4 years.The Tea Party went right for regulating lady parts first thing in office. They basically began by “throwing stuff at the wall and see what sticks” method combined with what @Ruckus said about last minute bills.
Yelladog
The guardian ad litem, to properly represent the fetus, should be another fetus with a law degree. Makes as much sense as this whole concept.
Steeplejack
@Tenar Darell:
I was serious.
I don’t think it should be left to ACLU, Planned Parenthood and NARAL alone to fight back against this stuff. Or, hell, just to even notice that it is happening.
When I was a newspaper reporter 35-40 years ago, my paper (in a middle-sized Southern city, third largest in the state) had a capital “bureau” (usually one person, augmented in busy legislature sessions) that tracked proposed bills and reported on their content and progress in the legislature. Something like this Alabama law definitely would have hit the radar. It might still have passed, but at least people would have known about it ahead of time and it would have been—or could have been—a topic of public debate.
I know that newspapers have gone into a terrible decline since then, but what I can’t understand is why some of the coverage slack (apparently) hasn’t been taken up by bloggers, political junkies or, hell, Democratic legislators to get the word out about heinous stuff like this when it first appears. Especially, to repeat what I said above, in the age of instant Internet everything.
Tenar Darell
@Steeplejack: Shortest: I dunno.
I live in Massachusetts, in the Boston area just outside 128. Most coverage of the legislature is in the Metro section of the Globe, and you need to read it every day to get an idea of what they’re actually doing. Local tv news rarely seems to cover more than the scandals on a regular basis. And though we still are a “two paper” town, the Herald is no longer much more than a scandal rag. (Every once in a while they do cover something decently, but it’s rare). Local papers are sadly fading, and consolidation hit many on the way down. There is some good state level blogging, but I’d guess that doesn’t help if you live out in Worcester or Springfield. (Boston has always sucked up all the oxygen). But… this is a mostly liberal one party state with a solid (I don’t know what to call it) traditional Yankee conservatism? Example: the legislature did manage to pass the Mass Health Law, but the hospitals had to be placated and protected.
Another example, the legislature hasn’t passed a “fetal homicide” law but apparently there’s case law which applies, and no one has bothered to modify the homicide laws to change it.
Is the news/gov’t really different in conservative/Republican States? My only nearby comparisons are NH and ME. They don’t seem to be like Alabama or Texas etc. But, what seems sneaky to me, may simply be lack of proximity to better sources.
Sigh, I really don’t know.
Calouste
@jibeaux: Libertarians advocate an expansive view of their personal liberty, usually summed up around there parts as “I Got Mine, Fuck You”.
Steeplejack
@Tenar Darell:
I have pretty much given up on local newspapers and local TV “news.” What I am wondering is how huge stuff like this flies under the radar apparently unnoticed on the Web. Again, to revisit ancient history, when I covered the county courthouse as a reporter there was a permanent coterie of trial groupies—retirees, mostly—that occupied the gallery of whatever trial was currently the most interesting. The same was true, to a lesser extent, with the legislature. I’m sure the same thing is true today, but how come nobody seems to blog or comment about it. There are blogs about everything, but somehow there’s no MyIdiotLegislature.com? It just doesn’t make sense.
Tenar Darell
@Steeplejack: Well, there’s probably a lot of court and legislative aficionados still about, and who do blog, but the reporters (like you) may be gone. So there’s no connection between those individual blogs and a wider audience anymore. That tiny connection, the contextual background has been lost without the infrastructure to sustain it.
I think that what’s happened. It is a loss of connections. The supporting structures which would allow these important stories to reach a wider audience, well it’s just gone. All that’s left is native advertising, activists, and PACs to get a story lifted to the next level. All of these have issues with impartiality, and some journalists seem to have trained in avoiding activists, courting advertisers and ignoring PACs (even if they effect the story). I’m guessing this has a deleterious effect on the stories which get reported.
Bluemassgroup.com may interest you though.
Tenar Darell
@Steeplejack: Well, there’s probably a lot of court and legislative aficionados still about, and who do blog, but the reporters (like you) may be gone. So there’s no connection between those individual blogs and a wider audience anymore. That tiny connection, the contextual background has been lost without the infrastructure to sustain it.
I think that what’s happened. It is a loss of connections. The supporting structures which would allow these important stories to reach a wider audience, well it’s just gone. All that’s left is native advertising, activists, and PACs to get a story lifted to the next level. All of these have issues with impartiality, and some journalists seem to have trained in avoiding activists, courting advertisers and ignoring PACs (even if they effect the story). I’m guessing this has a deleterious effect on the stories which get reported.
Blue Mass Group’s set up may interest you, based on what you’re saying.
Paul in KY
@wuzzat: About 1992, I think…
Paul in KY
@Baud: Seems like in Alabamy, you damn well better use ‘he’.
Paul in KY
@Baud: Good one, Baud!
Paul in KY
@John Revolta: Why, we’d have hover cars like in the Jetsons, and 4 cures for cancer, and teleportation, dontchaknow…
Hobbes
Maybe people don’t like using ‘they’ because its only been used as a singular form for the last seven hundred years.