Now the most famous peanut farmer of all weighs in on President Obama’s ISIS/ISIL/Islamic State strategy:
“[Former President Jimmy] Carter said it was hard to figure out exactly what President Obama’s policy is in the Middle East.
“It changes from time to time,” Carter said. “I noticed that two of his secretaries of defense, after they got out of office, were very critical of the lack of positive action on the part of the president.”
“First of all, we waited too long. We let the Islamic state build up its money, capability and strength and weapons while it was still in Syria,” he said. “Then when [ISIS] moved into Iraq, the Sunni Muslims didn’t object to their being there and about a third of the territory in Iraq was abandoned.”
“We waited too long” may only apply to making the current strategy work, but absent that context, the implications are distressingly neo-connish: Does Carter mean the US should have gone into Syria with guns a’blazing as soon as ISIS reared its psycho head? Should we have SURGED MORE in Iraq? Carter doesn’t say, but it sounds like he may be in the tank for Hillary. (I kid!)
Carter sees some hope for the current American policy against ISIS in Iraq where troops on the ground will follow up after air strikes.
“If we keep on working in Iraq and have some ground troops to follow up when we do our bombing, there is a possibility of success.”
No such ground troops are available in Syria at the moment, he said.
“You have to have somebody on the ground to direct our missiles and to be sure you have the right target,” Carter said. “Then you have to have somebody to move in and be willing to fight ISIS after the strikes.”
I’m pretty sure he doesn’t mean American ground troops, so I think the “possibility of success” he refers to is pretty much exactly what PBO is trying to achieve, i.e., providing air support and hoping the various players on the ground get their shit together enough to oppose the crazies. It’s a chump bet if you ask me, but no one did.
Also, Carter thinks drone strikes on Americans abroad are unconstitutional, that the oppression of women is the most pressing human rights issue on the planet and that Republicans are still tooting the same shopworn dog-whistle they first pressed to their moist, pursed lips in 1964. I think we can all agree the latter sentiment is true.
Patricia Kayden
His grandson is running for office in Georgia hence now he’s a chicken hawk too.
Askew
damn it Jimmy. Don’t join the backstabbing Clinton’s and their followers in attacking Obama.
Lee
This is the very first time I have ever wanted to say this but STFU Carter.
Professor
There is a saying by Benjamin Franklin (I think) and to paraphrase: Any fool can complain, condemn and criticize, and most do. Have you realised that none of these critics offer any solutions to the problems going on around the world?
Bobby Thomson
In fairness, Jimmy was blowing the same whistle later than ’64, albeit a bit softly.
I would agree that the president’s Mid-East policy has been schizophrenic, but disagree that ISIS poses a national security threat. Carter does seem to be Monday morning quarterbacking here.
Betty Cracker
@Professor: Here’s my solution: Stay the fuck out of it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
That’s understatement to the point of incoherence.
Belafon
The world’s a complicated place, and the fuck-ups of the last president don’t go away just because you elected a new one. Sometimes, you have to do something about the shit your predecessor left behind.
@Patricia Kayden: Really, you think Jimmy Carter has gone right just to make his grandson more appealing?
I’m also tired of people on the left thinking that Democrat means “will not fight”. It’s never been true, and it’s coloring your views of the actions of the presidents if you think otherwise.
Does anyone else here think that Carter may be saying this because he has a peculiar view that few others have?
raven
Just for you Betty
Bobby Thomson
@raven: Thanks. I needed that laugh.
FlipYrWhig
This isn’t even left/right stuff. This is just “leadership”/”decisiveness” bullshit. Apart from the utter insanity of the Republican party, the “leadership” fetish has to be my next least favorite feature of contemporary politics.
lurker dean
not sure what to make of this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/us/justice-kennedy-blocks-same-sex-ruling-in-idaho.html
raven
@FlipYrWhig: It’s bullshit, who cares?
CONGRATULATIONS!
Obama doesn’t know what the fuck he’s doing in the Middle East. Really doesn’t. That has become agonizingly obvious.
Problem is pretty much nobody else knows either. I sure don’t.
Hunter Gathers
Old white dude trashes black president.
Must be Always O’ Clock on a Day That Ends In Y.
Patrick
@raven:
Hilarious. My sentiment exactly.
Cervantes
@Bobby Thomson:
Right.
In any event, Carter has every right to say what he thinks. Readers/listeners can judge for themselves.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Belafon: I think that should go without saying, but apparently it does need to be said.
Violet
Really wish we’d followed Carter’s plan back when he was in office and were well down the alternative energy path at this point. Then who the fuck would care about the Middle East? If they didn’t have oil we wouldn’t.
JPL
@lurker dean: Maybe one of the law types will weigh in. To my non legal mind, it was confusing as hell.
shelley
The more disturbing story? “Dinesh D’Souza Using Sentence to Launch Reality Show”
KG
@Professor: the conventional DC wisdom (yeah, oxymoron, I know) is that we must do something. and generally “something” means send in the military to (as Limbaugh use to say) “kill people and break things.” I think Obama is attempting to change that conventional wisdom, at least at the margins.
@Bobby Thomson:
here’s the thing though: it only looks schizophrenic because Obama is willing to change direction when facts changes. that’s something that just doesn’t happen much, usually politicians have a preferred solution that they try to fit to the problem – and, sadly, that preferred solution tends to be “blow shit up.”
Violet
@lurker dean:
From Omnes in a previous thread:
Betty Cracker
@Belafon: I think it’s his true opinion without subterfuge. I don’t necessarily agree with what he says or the timing, but he’s earned the assumption of forthrightness in my book.
@raven: Hahaha! I so need one of those!
Patrick
It shouldn’t take even a 5 year old to figure out that this isn’t Obama’s mess. If Bush hadn’t so incredibly stupidly attacked Iraq in 2003, the Middle East wouldn’t be in the mess it is now. Instead of blaming Bush, he is critical of Obama. Go figure…
srv
We go from “even Hillary Clinton” to “even Leon Panetta” to “even Jimmy Carter..”
Obama has to be sold as a guy who was given good information and made bad decisions. Brezinski, the guy who got us into this ME mess in the first place is working that chessboard
Mike J
@lurker dean: Temporary stay while the state decides if they will appeal. Not a big deal. Same as what happened in the other states.
Mike E
@Violet: * ding * we have a winner!
Who here remembers when Exxon Mobil recently reported the greatest quarterly earning ever…in human history…since the invention of currency? All that you need to know.
Chris
Dear God, the man whose administration spent the Iranian revolution sending completely bipolar signals to the Shah ranging from “crush them all!” to “hold elections and loosen up on human rights” is gonna complain that Obama’s foreign policy is “too hard to understand?”
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
Cue the righties lauding Carter as a foreign policy expert.
Mustang Bobby
Now the Orcosphere will take up the cry that Obama is really out of his league when their favorite punching bag, Jimmy Carter, agrees with them. That takes chutzpah, but then they have an abundance of that.
Violet
I thought Obama was the Black Jimmy Carter. Now even Jimmy Carter doesn’t think Obama is doing the right thing. Sigh. It’s all so confusing.
Culture of Truth
The chief complaint seems to be, if only Obama had bombed Syria and armed the rebels earlier we wouldn’t be stuck in the terrible situation of having to bomb Syria and arm the rebels now. So?
Suffern ACE
@KG: I’m trying to figure out who has a consistent policy on the mid east. I guess “Keep ’em killing each other but keep the fighting contained” is a policy.
Betty Cracker
@KG: I wish I could agree, but it looks to me more like a pivot from “blow shit up from the sky and invade” to “blow shit up from the sky.” Is that an improvement? Yes it is. Is it a complete and radical departure from previous approaches to thorny foreign policy conundrums? Nope. But I’m not going to whine that I was misled; Obama ran as a moderate Dem. I knew I wasn’t voting for Medea Benjamin.
Suffern ACE
@Culture of Truth: Yep. I guess. Back before the protests devolved into a religious war, we could have bombed ’em to elections.
Culture of Truth
If you’re on a long road tip and you forget to fill up and run out of gas, a legit complaint is, “you know, if you had gotten gas before we left we wouldn’t be stuck walking 10 miles to the nearest gas station.”
But this is like complaining “if you had pulled into a gas station before, we wouldn’t have to pull into a gas station now.”
KG
@Patrick:
No, it’d just be a different mess. it is entirely possible that the Arab Spring still happens even if we’re not in Iraq. It’s entirely possible that the Arab Spring would have swept into Iraq, or Iraq might have inserted itself into Syria’s civil war or in Libya or any of the other flash points. And that likely means the Iranians would have gotten involved, not to mention the Saudis and the Turks. The fact is, after World War I the lines literally drawn in the sands of the Mid East were drawn in a way to make most of it ungovernable.
raven
I know everybody worships this dude but he got attacked by a goddamn bunny rabbit. Come on man. . . .
Culture of Truth
Obama’s policy is ‘schizophrenic’ in that he waited until ISIS was a real problem before declaring war on them.
We heard these same complaints about Reagan after the barracks bombing, George HW Bush after the invasion of Kuwait, and Stupid after 9/11.
Oh wait, no we didn’t.
Suffern ACE
@shelley: Oooh. Do we get to watch him share a room with his personal assistant? Listen to him talk about how his interpretation of Christian sexual morality is that its o.k. to sleep around as long as you’re not gay?
KG
@Betty Cracker: it’s a departure in the sense we are putting an onus on the locals to do the heavy lifting. Biden is right that one of our biggest problems is our allies in the region, they’ve been feeding the tiger hoping that we (the zookeeper) will put it down before it can eat them.
Betty Cracker
@raven: Wait, what? A bunny rabbit? Was it the Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog? I hadn’t heard of this incident.
Patrick
@KG:
Sure. And Santorum could have won in 2012. Anything could have happened. But the fact is that the M.E. was somewhat stable when bush attacked Iraq. This is why Colin Powell stated “you break it, you own it. Bush broke it…
Culture of Truth
ISIS is barely a threat to the U.S. It’s a threat to Iraq, the pet Bush begged his parents to let him take home and take care of and then left to Obama.
In any case, ISIS wouldn’t have gotten very far if Saddam were still around, unless the US funded them.
scav
What has the world come to. Heads of state making decisions in the middle east about complicated volatile evolving situations that not everyone agrees with. What. Next.
Suffern ACE
@Culture of Truth: Yep. I guess we can live in little prince world where we uproot anything that grows in case its a baobob, but its a little control freaky and deadly to do that to an entire globe.
Mike E
@Culture of Truth: Somehow, he’s just not doing it right…I can’t put my finger on why that is. A stronger suit color scheme would help, though.
Violet
@Betty Cracker:
Carter rabbit incident.
Cervantes
@Betty Cracker: Carter was out fishing. A rabbit in the water, in distress, attempted to clamber up into his boat. He warded it off with a paddle. Months later — months later! — some fool in the White House mentioned the incident to the press. You can imagine the rest.
You really hadn’t heard about this before?
lurker dean
@Violet: thanks, violet, missed that. and welcome back!
Violet
@lurker dean: You’re welcome and thanks. Glad to be back.
Betty Cracker
@Cervantes: No, it’s news to me. I was a mere child when Carter was president. But I once faced down a much more formidable animal from a canoe — a moose! I rowed my ass off to escape that sucker.
Gene108
Couple of points.
1. Carter was not a warmonger while President. I trust it is his opinion and not pushing for what neo-cons are, with regards to a broader agenda.
2. I do not think anyone thought we have to go back to nation building in the ME.
Other than boots on the ground, I’d love to hear an actual strategy to the region
chopper
Yeah, while they were pretty well embedded in the Syrian resistance movement. What were we supposed to do, blow up all the guys fighting Assad hoping we’d nail only the assholes?
This isn’t even armchair QBing. This is merely saying ‘they should have won the game instead of losing’
chopper
@Betty Cracker:
I don’t wanna bunny-wunny in my widdle ol boat
In my widdle ol boat in the pond
Cause the bunny might be crazy and he’ll bite me in the thwoat
In my widdle ol boat in the pond
Cervantes
@Betty Cracker:
Glad you escaped the advancing moose. Just don’t tell the AP about it.
Cacti
Jimmy, bless his heart, was the CinC who greenlighted the Operation Eagle Claw debacle.
I’m perfectly fine w/ the current POTUS disregarding his advice on overseas military operations.
Betty Cracker
@Gene108: Once again, I’ll offer my strategy: Stay the fuck out of it.
Culture of Truth
@chopper: Yes, mostly what we hear is Obama should build a large coalition of Sunni arab states to defeat ISIS, take down Assad, and install a western friendly regime in Syria and Iraq and get rid of Iran nukes while he’s at it. Without spending anything or risking a single US life. Only very brave people are willing to go on tv to demand this.
Violet
@Betty Cracker: There is a picture of the Carter rabbit incident in the link in my above comment.
piratedan
tbh, I don’t have a problem with folks second guessing the President regarding what is going on in the ME. The thing is, no one has any solid conclusive gameplan, outside of the neocons clamoring for us to put boots on the ground because, profit!. The situation is one that we’ve had a hand in in but isn’t exclusively of our making because we have elements of radical muslims of one sect doing their thing, moderate muslims not wanting to get involved until it’s not only on their doorstep but in their backyard and doing everything that they can from not using those shiny toys bought abroad to actually get involved. Plus you have a new sense of ARAB nationalism trying to separate itself from muslim fundalmentalism but not quite managing to do so, see Libya, Egypt, Syria et al… other Arab states are either disinclined to get involved, i.e. Morocco, or want to act thru proxies (UAE and the Saudi’s) rather than be drug in because they’d just as soon protect their wealth, not spend it tyvm. The old models of tyrant at large are falling but replacement with the theocratic state hasn’t worked so well either, see Iran, and add the geopolitical manipulation of Russia and China to the mix, i.e. where the US is out, they gleefully enter or attempt to counter any moves made just makes for a really volatile stew.
For me, the key is getting the so called moderates in the Arab/Muslin world to get invested in sorting out the issues that allow the fundies such a fertile ground for growth. That means investing in their own countries and their neighbors, allowing some additional social freedoms and taking the long and short view that religious extremism doesn’t benefit anyone and ignoring the issue doesn’t make it go away. As of yet, this recent intervention is apparently the first time that they’ve gotten off of their asses and out of a proxy role. If this continues and they continue to help be part of the solution, then perhaps this will start getting solved, without their involvement, we’re simply pissing into the wind imho.
Also too, it would help if the Turks simply bite the bullet and bury the hatchet with the Kurds and allow them their own autonomous state, but that appears to only be a slightly less difficult sell than getting the Arabs to get some kind of united front against religious extremism.
Calouste
@Patrick:
America messing up the Middle East started way before Bush II. Eisenhower letting the CIA perform a coup in Iran for the benefit of the company that is now called British Petroleum was the official start of it, although it probably started with the American oil companies sucking up to the Saudi’s in the 1930s.
Mnemosyne
@Chris:
This is pretty much what I was thinking — much as I love him for his post-presidential career, Carter contributed quite a bit to the current morass in the Middle East, including the US’s initial (disastrous) response to the rise of fundamentalist Islam in Iran.
SatanicPanic
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
“as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don’t know we don’t know.”
Apparently, the known unknowns are all over the ME
Cacti
@Calouste:
Nah. It goes back to the Truman administration, and the CIA-sponsored 1949 military coup in Syria.
Betty Cracker
@Violet: I saw it! It’s a dead ringer for the Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog.
Mnemosyne
@piratedan:
Turkey can’t even bring themselves to tell the Armenians, Hey, sorry about that massacre.
Ben Cisco
I’m going to steal a line from rikyrah.
Uh huh
Uh huh
Cervantes
@Cacti: Why the mission failed is a complicated question. Had the Marines (and their equipment) been sent in, for example, instead of so-called Delta Force, the hostages might well have been rescued.
Gene108
@KG:
I get tired of people cribbing the national boundaries are ungovernable. No national boundaries are ever set in stone.
When the Ba’ath party took over Iraq and Syria, they tried to unify as a single state. It did not last long.
The borders are what they are and you have to find a way to make it work.
Violet
@Betty Cracker: Apparently the popularity of the movie around that time was part of why our esteemed political reporting class was so enamored of the story. The Washington Post even had a “Paws!” cartoon to accompany the story. Link.
Cacti
@Cervantes:
I think Delta Force’s disastrous handling of Eagle Claw was a big reason why Obama has relied more on Seal Team 6 for anti-terror operations.
The rumor mill has it that there was no small amount of Delta Force butt hurt that they were passed over for the bin Laden raid.
Botsplainer
There’s a vast difference between reflexive warmongering and occasionally deploying the force of arms after thought and deliberation.
Sadly, the Nader/Kucinich/Chomsky left has a little trouble navigating that rhetorical difference.
C.V. Danes
I think it bears repeating that the reason that things got so desperate in Syria to begin with is that it (1) suffered through a lengthy and severe drought that (2) caused many people to relocate to cities in search of work and food that (3) did not exist because of short sighted government policies. When hungry people concentrate with no hope of help, then things get nasty.
If we had to go into Syria to stop the crisis, then it should have been with food and water, not bombs and bullets.
Grumpy Code Monkey
Carter made critical mistakes dealing with Iran, and it cost him and the country dearly in 1980 because it helped usher in the Age of Reagan. I think he sees Obama repeating those mistakes, and I think he fears a similar result.
BHO is only President guys; it’s not like he’s above criticism from his own side. We did wait too long to get a handle on this, and it’s metastasized. And, fuck it, Carter’s done his bit, he gets to say his mind.
And on a side note, why is anyone surprised by a hawkish streak among Democrats? Wilson and WWI? FDR and WWII? Truman and Korea? Kennedy and Johnson ramping up the action in Southeast Asia? Bill Clinton and Somalia? Shit, I think Carter was just about the only Democratic president of the 20th century who didn’t get us involved in a conflict overseas (modulo the failed hostage rescue attempt).
Yeah, there’s a dove wing in the Democratic party, and it’s usually on the sidelines.
KG
@Gene108: the only reason i raise the boundaries issue is because nobody (outside of the Kurds) is willing to suggest that “hey, maybe one way to solve this is to redraw the maps a bit”. i don’t know if it solves any of the problems, but then again, not much else we’ve done has solved any of the problems, either.
Cacti
Kind of pitiful that even Jimmah thinks he needs to whitesplain Presidentin’ to the negro POTUS.
If only he could be as smart as every white person with a contrary opinion.
Keith G
We have assets on the ground now and I think it’s pretty clear that we will need to have a more robust presence temporarily on the ground in the future. The question becomes how long do we wait before we do what seems to be the inevitable and put some combat forces on the ground to degrade the combat formations and military infrastructure of ISIL.
Now if there can only be some type of augmented Sunni policing force to be able to hand off to after the US troops have done their task …..well that’s another question.
piratedan
@Mnemosyne: agreed and it’s part of the issue with humanity at large. Before I get all pissed off at the Turks own failings, we still have people arguing here about the cause of the civil war… glass stones throwing houses and all that. People in general have a hard time admitting fault, much less failings and as such, when shit like pride and ethnicity get in the way, well people can be mulish and plain old fucking stupid.
Frankensteinbeck
A stopped clock is right twice a day. A kind, generous, intelligent, and liberal man can have a stupid opinion occasionally.
Cervantes
@Violet: I remember that cartoon.
The whole episode illustrates nothing so much as the difficulty Carter had laughing at himself in public. Even though he hadn’t really done anything wrong, if he had just handled the “news” article with a bit of humor at his own expense, the whole thing would quickly have been forgotten.
Reagan was, and Obama is, much better at that sort of thing.
C.V. Danes
@Botsplainer:
Nice straw man you got there.
Cervantes
@Cacti: Yes, and yes.
Cervantes
@C.V. Danes: Oh, come on. Let him enjoy it. It may be all he’s got.
C.V. Danes
@Keith G:
Or we could just pull out and let the domino fall as it will anyway.
C.V. Danes
@KG:
Except redrawing maps may be a root cause of all this mess to begin with…
Violet
@C.V. Danes: Climate change, especially as it manifests in water access difficulties, is going to ramp up this kind of conflict. There will be more of this not less. People cannot survive without water. Water means crops and food. People cannot survive without food. It’s going to be a big part of the problem going forward, especially in dry places like the Middle East.
Throughout human history people have migrated due to need to have access to water and food. We are no different now.
Keith G
@Cacti:
This is pathetic. I hope your thought process is not as soiled as the above statement makes it seem to be.
Betty Cracker
@Cacti: That’s an unbelievably stupid thing to say. Carter is one of a handful of living human beings on the planet who has been POTUS. His opinion on current events is sought after by many people because of his unique perspective, and he’s remarked on the performance of every president who occupied the office after he left it, including many critical remarks on Reagan, Bush I, Clinton and Bush II.
Carter has praised Obama when he thought he deserved it, which is apparently most of the time since he endorsed Obama twice. To attribute his current remarks to racism is not only unwarranted and despicable, it cheapens the charge in the same way that the stupid neo-cons who go around accusing everyone who isn’t on board with Netanyahu’s policies as “Jew haters” cheapens that charge.
Now, go off on some stupid tirade about my “whitesplaining” and crackertude as usual. You silly git.
C.V. Danes
@Gene108:
And why do we have to find a way to make it work? This not a dispute between Kentucky and Ohio, this is a dispute in an area of the world that doesn’t belong to us. It’s their problem and their solution, not ours, unless we want to annex the whole area and make it the 51st state.
Violet
I’m curious–has former President George W. Bush offered his opinion about the situation with ISIS/ISIL? If so, I haven’t seen it. Anyone know?
Keith G
@C.V. Danes: We could, but we won’t, because some of those dominoes might fall in ways that are harmful to our long-term interests in that area.
I wish there were a drawbridge we could pull up and tell the rest of the world to go fuck itself, but that can’t happen and not it’s going to happen.
nastybrutishntall
The most rational, thoughtful, and competent President we’ve had since Ike is under 50% in approval ratings, and now Democrats in other states are running from him. Well, fuck it. Let’s elect a fascist strong-man who will invent enemies for us to blow up, will scare us into surrendering more of our rights, and will denigrate black folks and gays. Just like the good old days.
America, you’re gonna get what you wish for.
Patrick
@Calouste:
Oh absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. I doubt many Americans even are aware of that our own government helped overthrow the Iranian government back in ’53, which set up the dictator Shah. All I was suggesting, which people now are taking out of context, is that this is not Obama’s mess. There was a relative stability when Bush decided to so foolishly attack Iraq in 2003. Blame Bush, not Obama for the current mess.
Gravenstone
@JPL: It was mentioned a few threads down. Kennedy has granted a stay at the request of Idaho, since he’s the Justice responsible for handling such matters for the judicial circuit in question. The stay is to grant the state time to request a rehearing en banc.
Cervantes
@Violet: October 2, 2014:
Bill Arnold
@Violet:
Edit drat scooped by Cervantes. Leaving the link.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/2554280/
beth
@Cervantes: I saw that interview – after saying that he said this:
Sounds like bloviating and second guessing to me. They just can’t help themselves.
Cacti
@Betty Cracker:
Lady named Cracker chimes in for white privilege again.
How completely unexpected.
Violet
@Cervantes: @Bill Arnold: Thanks. I missed that in all the chaos in my life last week.
Turgidson
Seems like the entire political universe, Dems included, have decided to cut bait with Obama and go stag. Stupid, since Obama, faults and all, is twice the thinker and statesman most of these Captain Hindsight Sun Tzu’s could be, but predictable.
It would just be nice if his so-called allies could offer their analysis, criticism, or whatever without buying into the “he doesn’t have a policy/he can’t lead” bullshit that Ron “Severe Dementia” Fournier and his twit friends have been pushing on us since, well forever, but especially since Obama was reelected.
Nevermind the fact that Obama has avoided, with good reason, announcing a “doctrine”, since overarching foreign policy doctrines often result in misguided attempts to impose one rigid “solution” on disparate “problems” that require different responses. It seemed clear to me that his policy in the Middle East was to try to carefully unwind our involvement there while keeping the heat on the terrorist organizations we originally set out to fight after 9/11. ISIS being given the red carpet treatment in Western Iraq forced him to deviate from that preferred course, and he’s trying to adapt to the new situation – a situation forcing him to find the “least bad” course. Whether his plan will work or not is up for debate (I hope so, but expect not), and will take a while to play out, but to say he’s just fumbling around is intellectually lazy or mendacious, or both.
But the Monday Morning Generals out there prefer to condemn this as “having no policy” because it fits into the story they had already decide they were going to tell about Obama’s second term. I wouldn’t expect anything else from the Republicans or the usual suspects in braindead faux-centrist punditry, but it would be nice if the Democrats could be more careful in the way they criticize him. Even better if they’d just have his back for once, but I guess that’s too much to ask for.
C.V. Danes
@Keith G:
The same thing was said about Vietnam. We got kicked out, the domino fell, and the world moved on.
Chris
@Mnemosyne:
I would say that’s overstating things: Carter was dealt a shit hand by twenty five years of Cold War hawk predecessors, and he happened to be around when the bill came due for one of them. I don’t think he had any good options, and certainly none that would’ve saved the Shah. I’m just saying that he spent the whole time flailing wildly between policies and never actually committed to any.
C.V. Danes
@nastybrutishntall:
I would just as soon not go back to those good old days. But I realize that I seem to be in the minority on this.
Keith G
@nastybrutishntall: Being rational and correct on the issues is only part of the battle. Next comes the hand to hand combat and marketing to show to others how correct the ideas are. The opposition to any president always complains about the use of polling data and the permanent campaign, but that is the reality of a successful modern president – constant brand management.
Obama’s leadership approval numbers in key categories have been tanking. That is why politicians in his own party are distancing themselves from him. This drop in approval rating is due to several reasons, but a deal of it is because of the actions of the White House itself.
Cervantes
@beth: That’s not quite how the interview went; and I did not see what Bush said as “bloviating and second-guessing.” (I understand that you did.)
Elie
@Frankensteinbeck:
Problem is that this is right before mid-term elections when you might could want Democratic leadership to stand by or back up the current President so as not to cause further deterioration of the Democratic electorate right before they should be convinced of voting to support Obama’s policies, No? Incredibly stupid of him and Pancetta (I mispel on purpose) as well as several of Clinton’s former “advisors”..
Yes, it is beyond stupid for a leader who should effing know better unless he relishes our having a solid Republican Congress. Sorry, he is an old fool and I don’t think he likes Obama much.
M31
@Violet:
“I’m curious–has former President George W. Bush offered his opinion about the situation with ISIS/ISIL?”
I wish he would, because it would be a reliable marker for what not to do.
beth
@Cervantes: Really? I’m not going to second guess him but “here’s what I wanted to do that he didn’t” isn’t? (I understand it doesn’t seem that way to you.)
raven
@C.V. Danes: Yea and Charlie didn’t fly shit into the WTC either.
Elie
@Keith G:
And Keith, it really helps all of us that they pile on, right? Only Obama’s shins are bruised, right? What benefit does an all Republican Congress give Hillary when she goes to ramp up in 2016? Does she think that Benghazi is going to just go away or other stuff found? How does impeaching Obama and repealing ACA help her exactly? What you point to is underestandable but not strategic on the part of democrats
Violet
I did not know this:
Anoniminous
History doesn’t repeat itself but it does chime and rhyme.
Around 379 BCE the Spartans were being vexed by the Chalcidic League so they proceeded to break it up. According to Prof. Peter Green, “one the most disastrous errors of judgement imaginable.” What the Spartans did was remove “the one power-group which might conceivably have checkmated Macedonia’s meteoric rise to power before it was well begun” (same dude) by creating a power vacuum which Phillip filled as soon as he could.
American Iraq policy has created a similar power vacuum. It opened the door to invasion by a mob of ill-armed insurgents (ISIS) and to domination by Iran. At the moment, the de facto alliance between the US and Iran to contain ISIS is putting weight towards eventual – whether de factor or de jure doesn’t matter – domination of the Mesopotamian valley by Iran. Turkey could be a counter-balance although Turkey needs more Kurds like they need more holes in their heads and that’s the area they would have to move through – where “move” means political, military, or political/military.
The previous US answer to the power vacuum was the political fantasy novel also known as “Project for a New American Century.” That, when applied in the Real World, hasn’t worked out so well. If there is a new playbook I don’t know what it is.
And I doubt Carter does.
Keith G
@C.V. Danes: I have been told that the leaders of ISIL have an entirely different view of what their future holds then did Ho Chi Minh. Among our many problems in the 1950s and 1960’s, was that we were not paying any attention to what Ho was saying.
Cacti
The Clinton camp are war hawks, Carter’s a cold warrior from a previous generation. All of them are still stuck in the mindset of the US armed forces as a global missionary force for western democracy.
Obama has pushed against that during his two terms, and it has earned him the ire of the established order, both D and R.
Part of the reason I oppose Hillary in 2016, is that she and Bill are just itching to get their war on once they’re back in the catbird seat.
Jeremy
You know I have no issue with people having an opposing opinion on the ISIS issue, but what I can’t stand are Democrats who attack the President before the results from the strategy materialize. It shows the lack of respect people have for Obama. Panetta and Carter are making it easier for the republicans and the “media” to attack the President.
nastybrutishntall
@Keith G: I would argue it’s not what Obama has done, but what he is, that is scaring away Democrats — i.e. a rational, methodical, non-ideological guy who is BLACKITTTY BLAKKKK BLAKKK BLAKKK and therefore “incompetent” when he’s not “overreaching.” In other words, white Democrats are afraid of what white people might think of their support for a black guy again, and are hiding from him.
Fine. Let’s bring on Hillary and bomb some shit, get tough on shiftless poors and browns, and send a message that working-class white people are on top again of the pile fighting to grab the scraps tossed from Wall-Street’s table! Hooray for Democrats. 90’s retro is so chic.
catclub
@Grumpy Code Monkey:
Helped is a key word. there is a graph of presidential electoral success and the economy. Carter’s Economy was the worst of the set, and that is most of what cost him. The hostages were just lagniappe.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/18/which-economic-indicators-best-predict-presidential-elections/ find the figure and 1980 and 2008 have similarly bad economies, but 1980 was worse.
NorthLeft12
@Patrick: Not trying to defend Bush or Cheney here, but who knows what kind of mess would be going on in the Middle East if the US had not invaded Iraq.
Hard to imagine it could be any worse, but you never know.
Personally, I would like to see the other Middle Eastern countries take the lead on dealing with ISIS. I am a little sick of the West [including Canada] jumping in and trying to “manage” these situations.
Just once I would like to see if the other regional powers could get their acts together and be the first responders. Why should they when the US and its lap dogs are so eager to blow someone up?
Jeremy
@Elie: It really is ridiculous. On a side note I think the media and a large percentage of the country is invested in Obama’s failure so another minority will never run for president. Plenty of people are invested in the idea that non-whites are inferior.
gene108
@KG:
Europe tore itself apart every generation, i.e. when the next batch of boys were old enough for the meat grinder, up until 1945, when the weaponry was lethal enough they had to rethink things.
There are probably chunks of France, Germany, etc. that have traded hands countless times between different countries. In the end a desire to work out border issues peacefully is needed.
Drawing and redrawing lines on a map will not inherently lead to peace.
Getting good governments in place is what is on order and few countries in the ME have that, if any.
What the Kurds want in drawing up their own nation will not help Turkey or Iran, both with large Kurdish populations that will clamber for independence and cause problems in those countries and the regions.
Thanks to the 1991 settlement of hostilities with Iraq, the Kurds got to be semi-autonomous and seem to be doing better than the rest of the country.
I do not think it is some sort of inherent ethnic quality that compels Iraqi Kurds to want to be independent, but rather a bit of IGMFY. Sort of like the blue states in the U.S. that pay more in Federal taxes than they get back decided to say “fuck it, we’re better off going it alone, without Alabama or Mississippi to drag us down.”
Jeremy
@nastybrutishntall: When Hillary gets into office I think a lot of people will be disappointed. I don’t think she will get any landmark legislation through Congress, and her hawkish tendencies will get her into some trouble. But hey as long as the black man is out of our WH and the minorities know their place everything will be fine.
Betty Cracker
@Cacti: Talk about completely unexpected…hoocoodanode you’d start babbling at me about white privilege when challenged on one of your many dumb, fact-free statements instead of offering an actual argument on why it’s racist for former President Jimmy Carter to criticize current President Barack Obama on Middle East policy. Come on — light a candle for once: How is Carter’s criticism racist?
catclub
My comment got eaten.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/18/which-economic-indicators-best-predict-presidential-elections/
the economy, not the foreign policy, was what likely cost Carter his re-election.
It will be amusing if the same people who think Carter was the worst President ever, start approving of his opinions now. I think this is sufficiently wishy washy it will not matter.
Since I said that the Leon Panetta foofaraw would not last a week, and it is already history after 36 hours, I predict this will matter not a bit, a week from now.
scav
@Jeremy: Similarly, I wonder if a large number of citizens have latched onto Obama as the source of polarization, rather than the more difficult situation that it’s the entire nation, the neighbors have become really scary strangers that are unlikely to even try to get along. America isn’t a nation with worsening racial, economic , religious and gender-based divides, where you can’t trust cops or football players to be perfected virtuous paragons of Rockwell-painted mercan manhood! It’s all that single guy’s fault!
catclub
My comments were being eaten. maybe fixed.
Carter lost re-election becuase of the economy:
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/18/which-economic-indicators-best-predict-presidential-elections/
His economy was the worst.
I wrote yesterday that the Panetta thing would not last a week.
Since it is gone 36 hours later. This too, will pass. Quickly and without consequence.
NorthLeft12
I am surprised that Carter would say this. Wasn’t he roasted for not dealing more aggressively with the Sandinistas?
Exactly what he is doing to Obama now, right?
p.a.
I like Carter and if his energy policies had been adopted… but part of his energy policy was the Carter Doctrine which basically said the US must spend whatever resources necessary to secure MidEast oil. I think Carter was wise enough to realize that doesn’t ALWAYS mean military resources, but to hammers all problems look like nails.
Turgidson
@Jeremy:
You said it more succintly than I. Although I never miss a chance to rail about Ron “Massive Head Injury” Fournier. There’s a fine line between mindlessly circling the wagons around your leader, which the GOP did with Bush for longer than he deserved, and stepping outside the tent to piss back in. I don’t think either one is smart. Right now the Dems are behaving much more closely to the latter than the former. I’m not a Dem strategist, but I feel like there must be a way to show some independence from the president without throwing him under the “can’t lead/no strategy” bus. It doesn’t seem like anyone is interested in finding that balance right now, and we’re all going to suffer for it if the GOP squeaks into the Senate majority.
ehhhh, back to not paying attention to the news for me, for the sake of my sanity. I’ll make modest donations to a couple vulnerable Senate candidates and maybe phone bank a little if I have time, though, since a bunch of these races look like they’re going to be extremely close.
gene108
@C.V. Danes:
I personally would have wanted to make Iraq the 51st state, when we took over 10 years ago.
Would have solved a lot of the issues in installing a new government, as we already have that covered.
Also, I am not saying the U.S. needs to be involved.
It is that there are no national boundaries drawn that conform to some preordained picture of “all of People A goes here, all of People B goes here, etc.” and they all lived happily every after.
There’s no inherent reason a good or even modestly competent government committed to the rule of law cannot make things work in Iraq, Syria, etc.
Lebanon has put itself back together after decades of civil war.
Which also brings up a point that if outside “benefactors” quit funding various factions these civil wars will not last as long.
catclub
I tried to link to the NYT and my comment gets marked as spam. grrr.
The Panetta thing did not last 36 hours before being forgotten. This, too, will pass. Quickly and without consequence.
Carter lost due to the economy. The link has a figure showing his was the worst.
Jeremy
@scav: Yep ! It’s going to be funny when he leaves office and the same problems persist. We all know it will, but I believe they will continue to demonize the Obama’s until they die. Then they will try to portray them in a good light because the United States has a track record of demonizing prominent minorities and then doing a 180 after they die. A perfect example is Martin Luther King Jr.
Liberty60
John Quiggin at Crooked Timber has a good companion piece, where he talks about the hubris of America deciding to meddle in the Mideast-
“When a militarily powerful country tries to govern the affairs of millions of people on the other side of the planet, we shouldn’t be surprised that chaos results … ”
Its not about Obama- the error is in thinking that somehow a different President would be able to manage the Mideast like it was a division of America, Inc.
AFAIK, Obama is playing the cards dealt him. And one of those cards is that two Americans died very public gruesome deaths, and the entire public is howling for blood. Somebody’s blood. Anybody’s blood.
He can’t bully pulpit that away, he can’t ignore it, he has to manage it with the least amount of downside for America.
I swear, sometimes I think my 2008 assessment was right- maybe our country DOES deserve a President Palin.
catclub
@gene108:
Except for the recent history as a likely predictor. I actually agree with the principle.
catclub
@Jeremy: I really hope Obama or Michelle get nominated to the Supreme Court.
PJ
@Cacti: It is not a privilege, but a right, for all citizens, regardless of ethnicity, to comment upon or criticize politics.
Cacti
@Betty Cracker:
Betty Confederate still going to the mat for washed up white, Democratic pols, and their general condescension toward the negro POTUS. Must be a day ending in “y”.
For reals, though, why wouldn’t the silly negro POTUS give rapt attention and take studious notes on foreign policy from the guy who granted the Shah asylum in the US, and set off the Iran hostage crisis, then capped it off with the botched Operation Eagle Claw rescue.
nastybrutishntall
@scav: Word. Ironically, I think that like Carter, Obama is the scapegoat for our inability to look ourselves in the mirror. We’re already tired again of fighting for some ho-hum, mundane, workable corner of the Truth, some idea that yes, we are as a nation subject the laws of physics and the vagaries of human nature, that resources are limited, and that we’re all out of free lunch and have to compromise to live together.
Instead, what we really want is a newly updated assurance of our own predestination as the Chosen People of the World in Freedom, something to jazz us up in the morning like a Grande quad-shot salted caramel latte with extra crystal meth flakes to last all day, something…Reaganesque. High calories, super-sweet, and mass psychosis-inducing. A nice, new, shiny war should do it. Or a new domestic enemy. Or both!
Omnes Omnibus
@Cacti: Oh for fuck’s sake.
Jeremy
@catclub: It would be nice but I think the Obama’s can’t wait to get the hell out of Washington.
Patrick
@NorthLeft12:
We have to agree to disagree. Sure it could have been worse. But I seriously doubt it. According to wikipedia, there are about 4 million refugees from Iraq due to Bush’s attack. And the civilian deaths are counted in the hundreds of thousands. Not sure what would have happened that would have made it worse.
Jeremy
I think the President could have reacted faster to the ISIS problem. Like I said before, legitimate criticism can be done in a way that doesn’t undermine the leader of your party. What Panetta and Carter did was inappropriate. There is a reason why Obama has a tight inner circle and it’s because too many people especially in Washington are backstabbers.
burnspbesq
@Culture of Truth:
All other considerations aside, why would anyone with more than three functioning brain cells think that Hezbollah would stand for a pro-Western regime in Syria?
John N
If we’re going to send troops into the middle east, again, we should start building stuff like McDonald’s, etc. See how long radical Islam stands up in the face of modern American comfort. Killing people doesn’t seem to be getting us where we want to go, so how about trying something new?
catclub
@John N: Yes. If we wanted to make an impact, we could spend real money to make the lives of refugees better. Instead we spend real money ( without raising taxes, natch) on military stuff.
Cervantes
@Elie:
You really think what Carter and Panetta said is what will hold back Democratic turn-out?
policomic
I am old enough to remember when this Great Man of Peace revived Selective Service registration, sheltered the Shah, and defended the “ethnic purity” of neighborhoods.
I threw my first vote away on John Anderson, which I regret. But the retrospective nostalgia for Carter irritates the hell out of me. My (and others’) third-party vote and Ted Kennedy’s primary challenge were politically stupid–just as Carter and Panetta opening their big mouths on the eve of the midterms is stupid (and ego-serving). But the fact that Carter was challenged from the left didn’t happen for no reason.
Roger Moore
@Jeremy:
I assure you, for a large part of Washington the feeling is mutual.
Cervantes
@beth: Are you quoting from a transcript?
John N
@catclub: Yes, it is amazing the way that spending money to help people (which is ostensibly our goal in getting involved here) is off limits, but spending the exact same sum of money to kill them is perfectly acceptable. It makes one think that our involvement in the Middle East really doesn’t have anything to do with helping them at all!
Cervantes
@Cacti:
What do you mean by this sequence of letters, spaces, and punctuation marks?
Betty Cracker
@Cacti: So you got nothing. Thanks for clearing that up.
gene108
@catclub:
I don’t think Saddam qualifies as good or competent government. Dragging your country into an 8 year war with Iran for no real gain and this pissing it all away by invading Kuwait and getting saddled with economic sanctions, is not competent governing.
Maliki does not seem to grok how peaceful transfers of power work in a democracy. He seemed convinced that he either held onto power or his head would be on a pike. He governed accordingly, which did not help matters in Iraq.
Though in Maliki’s defense, I will say if the Syrian civil war had not spilled over to Iraq, the current Iraqi government may have been in a better position to correct some of Maliki’s mistakes and his rule would just be water under the bridge.
I’m not sure about Syria. I thought the Assads (father and son) were a bit more reasonable in taking care of their country, but I could be sorely mistaken.
I think very few countries in that region are governed well, which is one reason there are so many problems.
Mike in NC
In response to all the warmongers screaming for “boots on the ground”, I hope at his next news conference the president announces — with great fanfare — that he is bringing back the draft effective January 1st, 2015. No exemptions, no exceptions. That will quiet down the bullshit very fast.
gene108
@Cacti:
Carter also negotiated a deal with North Korea (on behalf of the Clinton Administration), in which North Korea would give up its nuclear program, and agree to inspections in exchange for U.S. energy aid.
Carter is not a complete screw up, though he has made his share of mistakes.
beth
@Cervantes: I was quoting from a Fox News article but you did make me go back and watch the actual interview (damn you). Right after the line you quoted about not second guessing, he states “but I agreed with General Dempsey’s assessment” (they had just discussed Dempsey’s statement about needing to leave the troops behind. So understand it any way you want – when someone says to me “I’m not going to second guess you but here’s what I would have done” I take it as second guessing.
When asked if he missed anything about being President he also said “I miss saluting the men and women who volunteer to serve our country”. I take that as a dig over the coffee salute because I think GWB is a miserable little shit of a human being.
Botsplainer
Vietnam never really gave off the odor of systematic maliciousness and has proven to be a stable society with a workable rule of law, a reliable trading partner and a decent presence for international normalcy.
It never was on the Kim Jong-Il continuum of stupid. ISIL, otoh, has this little beheading problem.
Chris
@gene108:
Wasn’t the problem in North Korea that Bush went back on Clinton’s deal?
Betty Cracker
@gene108: I don’t think anyone is claiming that Carter is perfect or even that his criticisms of Obama’s policies are particularly trenchant (I certainly didn’t endorse them in the original post). But leaping from that to “Jimmuh Carter is whitesplain[in’] Presidentin’ to the negro POTUS” manages to be despicable, inane and predictable all at the same time. You usually have to visit a site like Gateway Pundit to see so much dumb packed into so few syllables.
Cacti
@policomic:
Not to mention his Support Rusty Calley/The Butchers of My Lai Day, as Governor of Georgia.
Patrick
@beth:
Leaving aside whether it is second-guessing or not; wasn’t there a treaty that gave Iraq the right to say no to the US leaving troops? And Iraq had said no. Do I have that right? If so, was Bush actually saying that he would ignore the sovereignty of the democratic leadership of Iraq?
It seems like anything they try falls to pieces as there are pics of Bush doing the same. There was once outrage because Obama wasn’t wearing a suit jacket in Oval office. Then pics showed up of Bush doing the same. Regarding the coffee salute and the claim it was disrespectful to the troops fell to pieces when a pic showed up of Bush holding his dog while doing a salute.
http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/09/23/the-medias-imaginary-coffee-salute-scandal/200863
We get it. He is black. Get the f*** over it.
Cervantes
@beth: Do you have a link to (the version of) the interview that you watched? (Thanks.)
(The text I quoted earlier was from a printed transcript and I presume you heard it spoken during the interview.)
El Caganer
@gene108: @gene108: I read a while back that one of Syria’s biggest problems is drought, which is forcing a lot of farmers off the land and into the cities in search of non-existent jobs. Whether Assad stays or not might not be the most important issue facing the people there.
Chyron HR
@policomic:
Well, at the time nobody could have predicted how badly he and Yes would sell out with 90125.
El Caganer
@Patrick: My understanding was that the Iraqis refused to sign a new status of forces agreement exempting US military personnel from the Iraqi legal system. That’s when the agreement to leave was signed. So Dubyuh’s telling a half-truth: yes, we could have left troops there, but they could be arrested and tried by the Iraqi government.
ruemara
Jimmy Carter has been my favourite president since I was a little kid. But he can go STFU too. What the fuck is it with these people showing up to offer their two cents worth of bullshit?
Patrick
@El Caganer:
Thanks. That’s what I thought. So Bush is basically dishonest in what he said.
beth
@Cervantes: Here you go: http://foxnewsinsider.com/2014/10/02/exclusive-george-w-bush-says-some-us-forces-should-have-stayed-iraq
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Well, he’s more or less staying the fuck out, so that’s good….carter’s opinion notwithstanding.
Carolinus
@Cervantes:
Sure, but as with Panetta, when you’re doing it weeks before a critical mid-term election, where you’re reinforcing the GOP’s critique that they’ve made a central campaign issue… we’ll, you’re not a particularly loyal member of your party at that point, and one has to wonder if you may actually want the Dems to lose the Senate. Obviously if you felt desperately compelled to weigh in on US Foreign policy you could have just waited a few weeks and done it then.
ruemara
@Carolinus: exactly. No idea what he’s thinking.
Roger Moore
@Botsplainer:
Vietnam mostly wanted to get out from under the thumb of colonial rule so they could become a normal country. They got involved with the Communists because that’s who was opposing colonialism, but they were really more nationalists.
And I think the beheadings are really only the symptom, not ISIL’s core problem. Their real problem is that they’re punishing people for stuff that the rest of the world thinks shouldn’t be a punishable offense, much less a death penalty case.
Carolinus
@El Caganer:
G.W. initially advocated for keeping a residual force, but the action he later ultimately took was signing an agreement for all troops to leave. The Right has latched on to the former to paint Bush as having been prescient, and they pretend the latter never happened.
Panetta’s critique is that while President Obama was willing to leave a residual force given standard US troop immunity, Malaki insisted that the Iraqi parliament vote on it, and Panetta concedes that the vote was guaranteed to fail (since it was politically unpalatable to the Iraqi electorate). Panetta complains that Obama didn’t twist Malaki’s arm enough to essentially force him to unilaterally grant the immunity. As an example Panetta says Obama could have threatened to strip away previously promised US aid and reconstruction money. It’s hard to see how that wouldn’t have just caused Maliki to seek out a different patron (Iran, China, etc), but also I’m not entirely sure how we could have justified, on the international stage, blackmailing our way around Iraqi sovereignty in order to force a troop deployment.
Patricia Kayden
@Cervantes: I have never heard of it before but I grew up in Canada so that’s my excuse. Never heard of swimming swamp rabbits that could attack people before. Poor Carter.
Elie
@Jeremy:
Maybe. But why tear up the house for some future possibility? In what scenario does Hillary win if after she and her minions trash Obama and we lose congress at the midterms? How does she get to WIN? Such a world view as you propose — which may be true to some extent, is not really practical and would take the Democrats down already in office as well as create future credibility problems for them.
I do wish that Obama would talk and lead these Democrats a little more. Right now he seems to be holed up in the WH taking a lot of incoming without showing much of a defense. He needs to show that — he needs to punch a couple of folks in the nose (figuratively speaking). I think he is doing the right things in a very difficult situation where there is no clear win likely… This is important — Americans need to learn to grow up and face hard issues that don’t always have nice tidy solutions and that we inherit from previous times… instead of looking for cheap skapegoats or denial.
I remain very disappointed in Jimmy but truly think that he does not like Obama – personally.
Elie
@Carolinus:
absolutely agree and scratch my head. This hurts more than Obama but all Democrats and yes, Queen Hillary. How Pancetta didnt see that and the other yokels is beyond me.
Patrick
@Carolinus:
Before that idiotic war started, I kept hearing slogans from the “pro-war against Iraq” people saying “liberate Iraq”. It is really interesting to hear 11 years later that they want to basically blackmail the same country so you can keep your soldiers there (ultimately to ensure their oil for ourselves). Some liberation…
Patricia Kayden
@ruemara: And right before a crucial mid-term election. Could they not wait and criticize Obama after November? Plus, there is nothing he can do to correct what they believe he did wrong. If they feel he should have acted sooner vis-a-vis Syria, he cannot go back in time and fix that, right? This is just fodder for Republicans.
Mnemosyne
@Roger Moore:
In that now-(in)famous Pew survey of Muslims worldwide, most Muslims who supported the idea of a Sharia law system didn’t support the actual punishments laid out in the Koran (like hand-chopping for theft, stoning for adultery, etc.). In countries that have a reasonably functional criminal justice system, even strong supporters of Sharia law thought it should be reserved for family law (divorce, child custody, inheritance) and not be criminal law.
Funny how Harris and Maher left that part out when they claimed the survey totally supported everything they said …
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
I’ll never understand the animus behind Dems being so shit scared of the GOP they basically emulate them down to reappropriating the exact arguments against their colleagues.
Washington…fuck, at this point, the entire goddamn country is hardwired for Conservatives from top to bottom. It feels like we’re playing a game we’ll never win.
Cervantes
@Carolinus: In response, I hereby repeat the question I asked earlier.
Carolinus
@Cervantes:
I’m in a mid-term swing state and I get bombarded by online, television, direct mail and phone advertising. A big chunk of the GOP’s midterm messaging is centered on being very afraid of ISIL attacking the homeland, and painting democratic party governance as failing to protect us (so we need the “Daddy Party” back in power if we want to feel safe). My answer to your question would be recent polling demonstrates that democratic leaning voters aren’t immune to these appeals to fear (ISIL, Ebola, etc) and trusted, inside-the-party reinforcement of the opposition party’s negative advertising and talking points absolutely hurts the mid-term efforts. For one thing, every Democratic candidate interview now involves at least one question about Panetta’s critique (even PBS wasted time with it in their Gillibrand interview last night). Also, the media loves “Democrats in disarray” circular-firing-squad stories, so Panetta’s ongoing interviews and Carter’s critique eat up limited news cycle airtime in these final weeks and days of the election.
El Caganer
Hey, why stop with the President? Some eager beavers are going after Pelosi, too.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/embattled-house-democrats-turn-against-nancy-pelosi/ar-BB8cmSM
TheHalfrican
@Botsplainer:
Decrying the “Nader/Kucinich/Chomsky left” seems rather odd at the moment. The amount of left-wing sympathy Obama has gotten for going after ISIS has actually floored me. I think its because 1) there’s recognition of what a utter “Kobiyasha Maru” scenario this is, 2) ISIS has effectively made it impossible for any humanoid outside ISIS to not hate them, 3) Obama reassured us that he’s not pining to shovel an Army Group back into that mess, 4) we know which Potus is REALLY to blame, and 5) unlike Andrew “I can be glib about shit that isn’t my problem” Sullivan, there aren’t too many people so dedicated to outright isolationism that they’re srsly willing to go full blown Pontius Pilate on tens of thousands of women and children starving to death on a mountain. Call me crazy, but I can imagine President Greenwald saying “Fuck This” and rolling out the killer robot planes under those circumstances.
At the end of the day, “Well, we didn’t do anything in Rwanda…” isn’t that God damned persuasive.
At least the world realizes exactly HOW evil and stupid Erdogan is now tho.
Patrick
@El Caganer:
“Here’s what I believe: Congress is broken,” says Gwen Graham, one of the Democratic Party’s top recruits, in a recent TV ad as a photo Pelosi and House Speaker John Boehner flashes on the screen. “Both parties – Republican and Democrat – are to blame. And both need new leaders in Washington.”
Yes, apparently both parties are equally to blame…
Mnemosyne
@TheHalfrican:
I think that, for most non-sociopaths, it’s pretty persuasive in the opposite direction. But someone who doesn’t want to be persuaded never will be.
LAC
@Mnemosyne: I am with you on that. It is a mess that our previous administrations have been a part of, so sideline dissing is neither credible nor helpful, anymore than putting our heads in the sand staying out of it. I am disappointed by him.
AxelFoley
@Turgidson:
This.
AxelFoley
@Jeremy:
A lot of minorities feel this way. Of course, we know many, if not most, on the right think this. But a lot of so-called allies on the left display the same prejudice.
NorthLeft12
@Cacti: How about trying to…….. ANSWER.THE.DAMN. QUESTION?
Sorry if your first amendment rights are being trampled on by someone disagreeing with your ludicrous take.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@CONGRATULATIONS!: (Haven’t read all the replies yet…)
Really?
It seems to me that Obama’s actions in Iraq and Syria have been totally consistent with his actions as president.
He wants people to do their job and not expect the President to swoop in like Superman and fix everything.
* That means no $1T platinum coin.
* That means no negotiation over the Debt Ceiling.
* That means no super-duper Executive Orders.
* That means the first option is always diplomacy, but military force is always available as a final resort (as illustrated by the actions on chemical weapons in Syria; Ukraine; reassuring Poland and the Baltics, etc.).
*That means no troops on the ground anywhere (outside of NATO, etc.) to fight local wars.
It really isn’t complicated. He wants people and countries to work within the system and within the laws to move us all forward. And that means that local countries have to do the heavy-lifting when it comes to fighting ISIL.
Obama will help, but people need to do their jobs.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Cervantes
@Cacti:
I’m assuming you don’t need me to tell you how ridiculous this is. If you do, just let me know and I’ll do my duty.
That aside, I do agree that Carter made a huge and avoidable mistake when (in October, 1979) he allowed Brzezinski, Kissinger, the Rockefellers, and even Mondale, to bully him into reversing his judgment, finally granting the Shah refuge in this country. In a July diary entry, Carter had written: “I don’t have any feelings that the Shah or we would be better off with him playing tennis […] in California instead of Acapulco, with Americans in Tehran being killed or kidnapped.” That was right — but in October, Carter reversed his judgment, and we know what happened next.
Looking at the bigger picture: Carter had claimed to make human rights the cornerstone of a renovated US foreign policy, but the establishment was four-square against him and he failed to keep his pledge — and not only in Iran.
Does that automatically delegitimize his criticism of any other President, including Obama? Some appear to think so but I disagree. Whatever he says can be evaluated on the merits, just like whatever anyone else says. As for the tactical side of the question: It’s a theoretical possibility but I have seen nothing to convince me that Carter’s criticism of Obama actually matters in the mid-terms. It’s not as if most low-information voters these days even know who he is, never mind what he says.
Get out the vote! Carter is not standing in the way.
Cervantes
@TheHalfrican:
It may be odd, not to mention intellectually bankrupt, but it’s also easier than actually getting out the vote.
Cervantes
@Carolinus: I appreciate the response. To wit:
The Republicans and the mass media are doing what they always do, without waiting for us to encourage them. Carter and Panetta have said what they said. Others will speak, too, unless we pre-emptively drug them or drag them away gagged and in chains.
So what’s next? I’m not ready to give up on the mid-terms despite having Carter and Panetta to blame.
Looking at potential voters who have not made up their minds (how) to vote: Is it really the case that these potential voters know and trust Carter and Panetta over anyone else?
And if you were one of those Democratic candidates, how would you handle media questions about Panetta’s or Carter’s comments? I doubt you’d be immobilized!
To be clear: Leaving aside the merits for now, I’m sure Carter’s and Panetta’s comments don’t make things easier; but I’m not sure that they hurt as much as people seem to fear.
Get out the vote!
Cervantes
@beth: Thanks!
@beth:
Again, despite your typography, that’s not a quotation, is it?
Look, I despise “The Hat with the Yellow Man” (and his gang) as thoroughly as it is possible for human heart to do — but still, I don’t think he was “bloviating and second-guessing” in this interview.
His attempt to sell his brother’s candidacy: despicable. His saying “I miss being pampered” was honest, I am sure, but despicable. His talk about how worth-while were the sacrifices of life and limb that he, in fact, stole: utterly despicable. His blithely criticizing “a group of ideologues who murder the innocent”? Ridiculous first and then thoroughly, down-to-the-core, despicable.
Those are the things that bothered me in the interview, not the fifteen seconds about Obama or Obama-via-Dempsey.
And speaking of Dempsey, it was Kilmeade who brought up what he may or may not have said. I am not sure which statement of Dempsey’s Kilmeade was talking about. Did Bush know for certain? Do you?
@beth:
Sure, I see where you’re coming from; I just did not see it as a big deal.
Off-the-cuff (unlikely) or rehearsed (more likely), that wording was suspect, I agree.