Long article in the NY Times about the old, unexploded, defunct, and buried chemical shells that we provided Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war:
The United States had gone to war declaring it must destroy an active weapons of mass destruction program. Instead, American troops gradually found and ultimately suffered from the remnants of long-abandoned programs, built in close collaboration with the West.
The New York Times found 17 American service members and seven Iraqi police officers who were exposed to nerve or mustard agents after 2003. American officials said that the actual tally of exposed troops was slightly higher, but that the government’s official count was classified.
***After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, Mr. Bush insisted that Mr. Hussein was hiding an active weapons of mass destruction program, in defiance of international will and at the world’s risk. United Nations inspectors said they could not find evidence for these claims.
Then, during the long occupation, American troops began encountering old chemical munitions in hidden caches and roadside bombs. Typically 155-millimeter artillery shells or 122-millimeter rockets, they were remnants of an arms program Iraq had rushed into production in the 1980s during the Iran-Iraq war.
All had been manufactured before 1991, participants said. Filthy, rusty or corroded, a large fraction of them could not be readily identified as chemical weapons at all. Some were empty, though many of them still contained potent mustard agent or residual sarin. Most could not have been used as designed, and when they ruptured dispersed the chemical agents over a limited area, according to those who collected the majority of them.
In case after case, participants said, analysis of these warheads and shells reaffirmed intelligence failures. First, the American government did not find what it had been looking for at the war’s outset, then it failed to prepare its troops and medical corps for the aged weapons it did find.
The usual suspects, lacking reading comprehension as well as shame, are attempting, quite feebly, to spin this as “SEE, BUSH WAS RIGHT!” Exhibit A.
Iraq WMD’s: Bush said they were there but couldn’t find them. Obama found them but says they weren’t there.
— Erick Erickson (@EWErickson) October 15, 2014
We went to war because Bush and company told us there was an active WMD program. Aluminum tubes. Yellowcake uranium. The mushroom clouds speech. Drones targeting American cities. That was the pretext for war in Iraq. The specter of imminent danger from an extensive, active, WMD program that was a threat to the entire world.
Not decades old, buried and long forgotten and unusable weapons that we provided. Operation Desert Snipe has never ended.
JPL
I hate these people.
Really we found our own wmd’s … Bush’s mother must be so proud.
jl
It is certainly understandable that Erickson does not seem to know when the ‘discovery’ of and exposure to old Iraqi chemical weapons began. The information is so hard to find:
“It was August 2008 near Taji, Iraq. They had just exploded a stack of old Iraqi artillery shells buried beside a murky lake. The blast, part of an effort to destroy munitions that could be used in makeshift bombs, uncovered more shells.
Two technicians assigned to dispose of munitions stepped into the hole. Lake water seeped in. One of them, Specialist Andrew T. Goldman, noticed a pungent odor, something, he said, he had never smelled before. ”
(this is the beginning of the link at the top of the post)
And odd that the Dub/Cheney administration could not find the old chemical weapons that previous administrations had sold to Iraq. That is a real puzzler.
Edit: is there a special word for finding something somebody has that you know they have because you sold it to them. Repossession? Recovery?
Edit: and isn’t the US military doing repo work kind of like humanitarian and civilian affairs work, not real military work like blowing up stuff and wasting people? Did Rummy know about this? Or did it begin as a Cheney black op?
Howard Beale IV
Oh for fuck’s sake, can someone put Erick son of Erick out of his and our collective misery?
SP
Pancake uranium
Now you’ve done it, Cole. Internet pedant force, activate!
jl
OK, true that a lot of this was made in Iraq, but the US backed Iraq in the Iran-Iraq war and gave plenty of aid.
skerry
@jl: There were stashes of old chemical weapons found before 2008. I personally know of one in 2003. It was never publicized and the treatment the personnel received was shoddy, at best. Everyone knew they were old weapons and it was kept close. A friend still suffers some effects from exposure.
jl
@skerry: That was my snarky point. August 2008 is before the 2008 election. They started recovering (‘discovering’) these old weapons long before Obama was elected.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
They were finding these things right after the end of the Iraq War – just they didn’t dare bring it up because some rusty old shell with mustard gas buried in a hole isn’t the same as the stockpiles of them next to an artillery battery like the Bush admin had claimed.
Turgidson
As noted, the discovery of these stashes began before Obama took office. Obviously his administration ought to have tried to dispose of these things safely and been straight with us (or at least the troops on the ground), but…yeah. Erick is a dope.
But of course, in braindead GOP history land, nothing bad ever happened in America F Yeah! until a certain Kenyan broke into the White House claiming to be president and the liebural media refused to hold him accountable (ie impeach and hopefully imprison or execute him for Hating America). So somehow this story means Bush is vindicated and Obama should be impeached.
WereBear
When the Republicans admit W lied us into a war… maybe then we can talk.
But they haven’t and they won’t and they never will.
Frankensteinbeck
@skerry:
I remember hearing on television during the early occupation a report of digging up some chemical weapons like this – pre-war, useless, apparently forgotten.
James E Powell
Erick son of Erick – Every word he writes is a lie, including “and” and “the” – h/t Mary McCarthy
Omnes Omnibus
It’s a no shit Sherlock thing that Saddam had WMD in the 80s. Prior to Desert Shield/Storm, we were shown gruesome footage of Iranians who had been attacked with Iraqi chemical weapons – just to let everyone know what was potentially in store for our forces. It certainly made me want to be able to get my mask on as fast as fuck.
Bubblegum Tate
@Turgidson:
As I’ve seen posted before (possibly on this very blog…can’t remember for sure), to wingnuts, 2000-2004 was Clinton’s third term, and 2004-2008 was the prequel to Obama’s first term, therefore all the horrible shit that happened then–9/11, the Iraq Clusterfuck, the horrible ruining of the economy, etc. etc. etc.–is either Clinton’s fault or Obama’s fault.
Z!
The moment I decided I was against invading Iraq, shortly before it happened anyway, was after a speech by Scott Ritter (the former U.N. weapons inspector). The main thesis: “Of course Saddam has WMD. We’ve got a list of everything he failed to turn over after Gulf War I, because we sold most of it to him. It’s buried in the desert and, according to chemistry, it’s turned to sludge by now. No way in hell he could have kept it working under the sanctions regime. He has to keep pretending it still works, because he needs it as a deterrent against Iran. So either he comes 100% clean that he has no working WMD and Iran bullies him, or he keeps playing games and we bully him. Sucks for Saddam. Not a great reason to invade, though.” Turned out to be a shockingly accurate assessment.
Patrick
@WereBear:
We can talk when they take responsibility and pay for the stupid thing.
Baud
Yeah, those old chemical weapons really justified the war.
Baud
I wonder if Iraqi woman carry mace. If so, there are your WMDs right there.
Botsplainer
Hey, speaking of viral stupidity, the radical anti-choicers are spreading a rumor that a number of the Ebola vaccines are developed from embryonic stem cell lines, to which they have moral objections.
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3215658/posts
With luck, the hyper Catholics and fundies won’t take any vaccine, will die, and we can all live happily ever after.
Russ
It does not matter one way or another, we as a country allowed our President AND MEDIA to sell us down the river. Lock, stock and barrel. To the tune of untold death, dollars, heartache and misery.
We should be ashamed of ourselves.
Omnes Omnibus
@Russ:
Ten years ago, people would have steamrolled your CDs for saying something like that. Who says we haven’t made progress?
may
When I read the NYTimes article this morning, I thought of the same photo you posted. Says it all.
Amir Khalid
Didn’t Jon Stewart say years ago that America knew about Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction because “we have the receipts”?
danielx
Read that article last evening….and the first thought that came to mind was “Irony, thy name is Rummy”. Great article. If they’d been completely Iraqi-designed and -produced weapons, the Bushies and their cheerleaders, Erick Son Of Erick included, would have been trumpeting it to the skies. Instead, the various incidents had a security blanket thrown over them to the point where the troopies affected by such goodies as Sarin and mustard gas couldn’t (and still can’t) get the care they needed. And then there was the ending paragraph talking about how a whole lot of the stuff left at a place called Al Mutawwa is currently under ISIS management…that will end well, I’m sure.
Somewhat OT: The article writer, C.J. Chivers, is an interesting guy.
Chivers attended the school of Arts and Sciences at Cornell University. At Cornell, Chivers played Defensive Line for Sprint Football all four years, and was a member of Alpha Tau Omega fraternity. After graduating in 1987 from Cornell, Chivers served as an infantry officer in the U.S. Marine Corps until 1994. He graduated from the United States Army’s Ranger School, served in the first Gulf War and in peacekeeping operations during the Los Angeles riots in 1992 before being honorably discharged as a captain.[1]
I’ve read his book The Gun, kind of “a social history of the AK-47”. There’s a reason, several in fact, that it and its progeny outnumber AR15/M16 derivatives by a ten to one margin. “Made to be used by the worst imaginable people in the worst imaginable conditions”, as I once overheard a gun store employee describe to a couple of shitkickers.
pseudonymous in nc
“Obama found them” says Erik the Derp, part-time seminarian, not realising that a reference to things that happened in 2004/5/6 in a piece written in 2014 does not place them in the Obama presidency.
As one of the NYT commenters noted, this Bush-era coverup may have prevented veterans exposed to old and abandoned chemical and biological munitions from receiving accurate diagnoses and appropriate treatment after their military service.
@Amir Khalid:
He might have done, but Bill Hicks said it first, back during the Kuwait Gulf War.
pseudonymous in nc
@Amir Khalid: Bill Hicks, 1991. Yeah.
jl
Off topic, except ‘viral’ in post title, but I think should be noted.Should be call to boycott Fox News. Fox News is undeniably following Limbaugh’s lead into the sewer.
Fox ‘Doc’ Goes Full Stormfront
Fox News ‘doctor’ goes full Stormfront on President Obama, breaking new ground even for Fox. Dr. Keith Ablow says the President wants Americans to get sick and die from Ebola as vengeance for colonialism. “His affinities” are with Africa and “he’s their leader.”
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/fox-doc-goes-full-stormfront
TPM had another story earlier today that Fox News had a real live serous and sound, avuncular white man infectious disease specialist MD on, who told the Fox people that they were full of shit. I guess they had to call in Ablow and his expertise to set things straight.
Baud
@jl:
I saw that story. Really remarkable that this type of garbage has become so commonplace that most people don’t even bat an eye.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
By which you mean, of course, that all our music is now in the cloud and can’t physically be steamrolled, right?
matt
The dishonesty, the deliberate stupidity – that’s how they identify as members of the same tribe. Real conservatives didn’t like Nixon until Watergate.
They have always been this way.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Shit, I still have a lot of vinyl.
ETA: Albums, not clothing.
JPL
John, How about a post about the nurse who contracted ebola, and then, traveled on an airplane. It appears that she checked in with the CDC and did what they suggested. I don’t think the passengers were at risk but since we dissed her earlier, it seems only fair to clear her name The reason I don’t think she was a danger to the passengers is because the virus is not airborne. Tomorrow will be 21 days since Duncan sat for hours in an emergency room and not one of the other folks became infected.
Mike in NC
@danielx: Even though every man, woman, and child in Iraq owned an AK-47, at some point it was decided they needed to be replaced by American M-4s/M-16s. No doubt a very lucrative contract for the military-industrial-congressional complex. Our tax dollars at work yet sgain.
Omnes Omnibus
@JPL: Cole’s response to my raising this in the previous thread.
Cervantes
@matt: But Nixon was Nixon (dishonest, etc.) long before Watergate.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Cole is an irrational moron, and should slow his fucking roll.
He hasn’t been right about a god damned thing from jump in 30+ years. No reason to expect him to start now.
beltane
I’m waiting for Betty Cracker’s post about Rick Scott’s meltdown in tonight’s debate. They say the shit really hit the fan.
Mart
I remember reading about finding some mostly defunct rotted munitions back in the day. The same assholes tried to run with it – Bush Was Right!; but it went nowhere. I also remember listening to NPR during the war build-up. They frequently played clips of the UN weapons inspectors. The inspectors said that radioactive isotopes can be traced with exactness, and they were certain that there was none. They said that chemical weapons can be hidden, but that they had been everywhere, all the palaces, etc. Though they could not be certain, they were confident that there was no active program. Meanwhile the Bush Admin said the UN inspectors had been thrown out. I would talk to my co-workers and they thought I was insane (liberal). The President said the inspectors were thrown out, how could they be on the radio. Also too, the UN is corrupt and useless. I am still pissed. Bring back the draft, end endless wars.
JPL
@Omnes Omnibus: Thanks. The problem with John’s response is why the hell would someone treat a victim with ebola. She did what she thought was right. Unfortunately, she never had the proper gear to deal with it. She still cared for the victim though and was probably told not to worry about it.
also.. I have to thank her for doing her job.. just like I would do someone in the military. She just didn’t have the equipment necessary to protect herself. She also didn’t have the knowledge to understand that there is sometime bad information.
Corner Stone
How about we back the fuck up just a little? Both of these nurses are infected not due to their personal foibles or fuckups. They are infected and at risk due to a profit motive.
Period.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cervantes: But that was his breakthrough album. Sure, a few hipster GOPers loved the HUAC and Checkers albums, but fuck those hipsters anyway, amirite?
raven
@Omnes Omnibus: When I was in Korea they were freaked about KOREAN HEMORRHAGIC FEVER! There was a big deal made about not using blousing rubbers for your fatigues because critters that carried the virus could get in.
Mike J
@beltane: Heheheheh
http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/story/senseless-rick-scott-meltdown-over-charlie-crists-fan
kindness
Don’tcha know the rules?
Right wingers can never be wrong. They can only be wronged.
In this case by those of us who were right.
skerry
@beltane: Here’s a link that has the video of the meltdown. I like the moderator calling Scott out.
scav
In a nation where we can’t get agreement on whether or not to wear motorcycle helmets, football helmets, eat unpasteurized cheese, vaccinate, floss, allow ten-year-olds to go to a park unsupervised, open-carry semi-automatics for shits and giggles, et cetera, we’re suddenly going to have a universal agreement on the exact moment in early potential symptom expression one can get on a plane? Personally, the paint-chip differences about this exact instance of air travel are less worrying than the early hospital behavior where something really went wrong at multiple steps with a far sicker and more contagious patient. But that’s just my take — everyone is going to have slightly different weights on balancing risks.
jl
@JPL: I think whether the nurse was a jackass or not depends on whether she had developed Ebola specific symptoms or not before she traveled. Ebola is not transmitted during incubation stage (no symptoms) or prodromal stage (initial signs and symptoms begin to appear). I don’t know what stage of disease was when nurse traveled.
Omnes Omnibus
@JPL: As I noted in that thread, assuming she was honest with the CDC and is accurately reporting what was said, I think that a person would be justified in relying on the CDC’s opinion that it was okay to fly. Others, like Cole, suggest that an excess of caution beyond what the experts suggested was warranted.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
JPL
@Omnes Omnibus: One more thing.. sometimes you just admit you are wrong.
Baud
@skerry:
Who the hell comes up with these rules?
Cervantes
@skerry:
Scott showed up after fussing off-stage for about ten minutes.
beltane
@Corner Stone: It’s a lot more gratifying to point fingers at individual nurses than it is to recognize the fact that our for-profit, privatized health care system is inadequate to deal with something like Ebola. If it’s a match between deadly microbes and rugged, pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps individualism, I’d put my money on the microbes. Our country’s lack of any sort of paid sick-leave policy is also not going to do us any favors here.
Omnes Omnibus
@jl: It appears that she had a slight fever, but it was below the CDC’s worry threshold.
WereBear
@beltane: I found this:
Crist has a fan
beltane
@skerry: Is there a single living Republican who isn’t a complete whineass?
CZanne
@skerry:
Try 1991. Khamisiyah is the keyword. Spouse was about 25 klicks downwind when the destruction team failed to keep it contained. For some time, it looked like his artillery unit was getting hit on two sides. Which, technically, was true.
Approximately 30K Americans and 1M Iraqis were within 100 km and downwind when that big dump was poorly destroyed. A lot of the GenX vets who opposed Iraq Redux did so because of the chemical weapons and their experiences getting either the DoD or the VA to admit and take seriously the damage done. They knew they hadn’t gotten them all.
Joint pain, auto-immune wonk, metabolic wonk are Spouse’s sequelae. He got lucky.
skerry
@beltane: No.
SATSQ
danielx
@beltane:
Alert the media: Rick Scott is a douchebag.
I’m still wondering how the hell they elected Lord Voldemort as governor down there.
Corner Stone
@beltane: We should nationalize all airlines, banks and hospitals.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Don’t forget industry. In for a penny, in for a pound.
JPL
@Omnes Omnibus: This is the problem I’m having, it is not an airborne disease and we need to be careful when we freak out. I actually didn’t think Nancy Snyderman was wrong to sit in a car while her husband went in to pick up food. It’s just not spread that way and we need to get a grip. I appreciate the folks that provide health care to these patients because they are at risk.
also.. I will admit that I’m wrong if a passenger becomes ill but since no one in the emergency room that Duncan went to, I don’t think that will happen.
raven
@CZanne: He havin any luck with the VA these days?
raven
@JPL: I say again, come on JPL. She’s a MD and a correspondent who said on the air that she would respect the quarantine. I don’t give a shit what her rationale was it was bullshit to do what she did.
Omnes Omnibus
@JPL: As a general rule, I try not to freak out over things (my success rate at this is open to discussion). As a result, until people like the CDC start freaking out, I am going acknowledge my ignorance and refrain from freaking out.
Violet
@JPL: @raven: Yeah, she said she’d respect the quarantine and she didn’t. Going out for food was more important to her. Clearly she didn’t want to be seen because she hid in the car. She’s a doctor and their Chief Medical whatever on NBC. If nothing else she should be setting an example of how to do a quarantine. She was wrong to do it.
raven
@Violet: I mean she’s always on the idiot box giving this and that health advice. I’m not freaking out but I know bullshit ass privilege when I see it.
James E Powell
@danielx:
I’m still wondering how the hell they elected Lord Voldemort as governor down there. ]
They were desperate for somebody to stand up to that Kenyan Muslim Commie – So they voted for somebody they knew to be a total asshole.
If memory serves, this was the mindset all over the country in 2010.
raven
Character is what you do when (you think) nobody is looking.
JPL
@Violet: That’s what a friend told me. She was not going to pass on an illness and I do think it’s important for folks to realize that.
also.. I recognize that a lot disagree with my opinion but what Snyderman did was not a danger. Was it stupid? Yes. . Should NBC still use her.. NO
Cervantes
@JPL:
If NBC were to fire each of its “personalities” who ever made a mistake …
Omnes Omnibus
@Cervantes: You and I would have job opportunities there. Right?
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Fine by me.
But actually, there are some industries that actually are a part of of the common good.
I don’t advocate nationalizing Abercrombie & Fitch. But the argument can be made, and I’m happy to go there, that agriculture, banking, transportation and healthcare are key to the survival of a nation state.
Tell me that a for private hospital it’s ok to put profit ahead of community/society when they refuse to put a patient in isolation because of cost. They have no protocols because of compliance costs. They don’t follow best guidelines by using the buddy system because those extra shifts retard bottom line profit.
This isn’t hard. We’ve given “industry” everything and all they keep doing is fucking us.
Let’s ask the commonweal of PA in 7 years how they enjoy their toxic drinking water for the benefit of private industry profits.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: I was joking a bit, but I actually more or less agree with your take on this. I would have happily been a Roy Jenkins or Denis Healy – but I just don’t have the eyebrows for it.
ETA: I would also be open to public utility status for these things. Perhaps privately owned but regulated and monitored up the wazoo.
Violet
@raven: Yep. It was privilege and nothing else. She thought she was above having to stay under quarantine because she’s a doctor. And then she wouldn’t even own up to it in her comment. “Members of our team.” Way to throw everyone else under the bus.
Violet
@JPL: I don’t think it’s important for us to realize it. I think the key point in her violating the quarantine is that she violated the quarantine. Nothing else matters.
Separately we can discuss the appropriateness of the quarantine and whether or not people who have been exposed to an Ebola patient, but who are not exhibiting symptoms, need to be quarantined. That’s an important discussion in allaying fears and disseminating real information. However, in the Nancy Snyderman discussion it’s not relevant. She’s NBC’s Chief Medical Correspondent. She’s got a position of importance and respect. She more than most needs to set a good example of what quarantine is. And it’s not leaving your house and hiding in your car while someone else goes in to a restaurant to get take out just because you’re going stir crazy in your house.
PhilbertDesanex
@Mike in NC: Always a good riposte to ‘Name me a tyranny where the people are allowed guns’
CZanne
@raven:
Eh… They’ve acknowledged that “something as yet undetermined” happened — but are still hedging. Perhaps chemical, perhaps bad drug interactions, perhaps fungal (like Valley Fever, but different desert so different species). We handle most through the civilian world since we have great insurance and docs and Spouse considers VA to be both provider of last resort and for the ones who need it more first. I’ve got him in the system, and it took less time than it took to get other family members in, so I consider that a win. (For all of the problems, the 2014 VA is light years better than the 1994 VA.)
As long as the auto-immune stays at current level (all pollen is DEFCON Eleventy-billion!!1!; food that can’t be traced to a specific plant or animal is not food, other weird, minor inflammatory issues that revert to mean after a few days/weeks) we’ll continue as we are. If I see neuro involvement, all bets are off, but so far, not yet.
Quaker in a Basement
Erick ought to read the article.